May 27, 2024 • 25 mins
Have you ever stood in awe of someone who commands a room with their powerful voice? Join us in this inspiring episode as we sit down with three-time JUNO Award-nominated recording artist Emm Gryner. With over twenty albums to her name, she’s toured the world both as a solo artist and with the legendary David Bowie. Emm has also appeared on albums by Def Leppard and Rob Zombie, and co-written with Jann Arden.
In this episode, we delve into how our voice represents our inner truths and values. Discover how to access confidence through your voice, speak your needs, and express your true self.
Emm's story is a testament to the power of resilience, reinvention, and authentic self-expression. Whether you’re an aspiring artist, a seasoned professional, or simply seeking to find your voice, this episode provides actionable insights and inspiration.
Learn more about Emm Gryner
- Visit her website: emmgryner.com
- Follow her on Instagram @emmgryner
- Follow her on TikTok
For us for actionable tools & tips for your leadership journey
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jen (00:00):
Today I sit down with three-time Juno Award-nominated
recording artist, em Griner.
Emm (00:06):
Even when I was singing with David Bowie, I was still
navigating my voice.
But that is what you have to do.
You can take the lessons, butyou got to get out there and do
it too.
I just happen to be doing itwith a major rock legend.
Jen (00:23):
She's recorded over 20 albums and toured the world as a
solo artist and with DavidBowie.
M Greiner's story is trulyinspiring.
In this episode, discover howto access confidence through
your voice, speak your needs andexpress your true self.
Let's dive in.
I am thrilled to be speakingwith M Greiner, a three-time
(00:45):
Juno Award nominated recordingartist.
I've been deep in your book forthe better part of a week.
Your book is the Healing Powerof Singing.
Raise your Voice, change yourLife.
What Touring with David Bowie,single Parenting and Ditching
the Music Business Taught Me in25 Easy Steps and lots of tips
in there that we will be talkingabout.
If you go back to some of theearlier lessons learned as an
(01:08):
artist, what were some of thosepivotal moments for you that
really shaped your trajectory?
Emm (01:14):
First of all, thanks for having me.
I'm really happy to be here.
I think that the opportunity tobe creative as a young person
probably shaped a lot, and myparents, they ran their own
newspaper out of our basement,so it was this great glimpse of
entrepreneurs working, beingcreative, making money.
(01:36):
So, yeah, those things reallyshaped the decisions I made
towards.
You know, like starting a demoon my own and like put a band
together on my own.
I never felt worried aboutdoing those things because I
felt like it would always workout.
Jen (01:52):
So they were obviously demonstrating and role modeling,
but were they equallyencouraging you to take those
risks and think outside the box?
Emm (01:59):
They weren't encouraging in the way that maybe, like a
teacher, would be encouraging,yeah, but there was an
environment created where wecould be creative.
Yeah, we lived in the country.
There was literally nothing todo and, I think, out of
necessity, um, just writingsongs, playing instruments.
(02:22):
It became something that theyyou know, they they did
encourage.
I do remember there being apoint, though, when it started
to get close to the end of highschool, where I think there was
a little bit of trepidation over.
You know, her music is nowgoing to be what she puts her
(02:45):
whole life into right.
Yeah, and I think, with parents, they need to see a magazine
cover, an award nomination mineanyway they needed to see that
the world would embrace what Iwas doing before they could
completely get on board.
Jen (03:00):
I know that a lot of artists like they can feel that
they are an artist inside ofthem.
Did you identify as a vocalartist like that early as well,
like you just knew sing thesongs I was writing.
Emm (03:12):
So singing has been like this thing that I'm like, oh man
, I know I can't sing like TinaTurner or whoever, so what do I
do to get a little bit closer tothat?
(03:33):
So I took vocal lessons, Evenwhen I was singing with David
Bowie.
I wasn't really at the top ofmy game Like I.
I remember having kind of a lotof just, I was still navigating
my voice, but that is what youhave to do.
It's like you can take thelessons, but you got to get out
(03:53):
there and do it too.
So I just happened to be doingit with a major rock legend.
Jen (04:00):
Yeah, when you got that gig , was there a difference in that
moment with how you sawyourself?
Or was it just like the worldtelling you that, hey, you made
it.
And you, you've always kind offelt like you were confident,
naturally.
Emm (04:15):
I think that Bowie experience was twofold.
So I mean, I grew up listeningto Duran Duran.
Um, all those British bandsthat listened to Bowie right.
So to actually sing with him.
It definitely satisfied thiscreative part of me.
But when you're in your 20s,ego is super running the show.
(04:35):
So I remember kind of comingout of that experience feeling
like, okay, by then I had beendropped from a major label.
No Canadian record label wouldlike look at me and I was sort
of like you know, okay, well, Ididn't get this, but I got this
and it's pretty awesome andeveryone wants to talk to me
about it.
I also think that it gave mepermission to be braver.
(05:00):
So the ego is not like totallyit's not a horrible thing, it's
like braver.
So the ego is not like totallyit's not a horrible thing, it's
like it can be a vehicle, right,yeah.
It definitely gave me someenergy to say like, hey, I am a
singer, right, even if I wasn'tquite there yet getting the
permission to to step into thatrole.
(05:23):
So for me it was Bowie, but foranyone else it could be a new
job or a new way of looking atsomething or you know, just kind
of an awakening.
Jen (05:34):
When you're not an artist, you might be chasing the job,
the title, the role.
There's been a ton of layoffsthat have that have happened, so
it's like who are you withoutthe blank, and so I just feel
like that's the work.
When you were that young,collaborating with artists like
that, did you find that it waseasy and natural for you to
(05:55):
authentically be creative, orwere you trying to appease and
adjust a little bit along theway?
Emm (06:01):
I was completely appeasing and adjusting.
There were certainly timeswhere I would create something
or write something that feltreally great, really energizing.
But I am a sponge, so thepeople around me, the
environment, they reallyinfluence what I do and I'm sure
this resonates with a lot ofpeople listening.
(06:22):
Yeah, you know the problem withthat.
Sometimes, when you're youngerand in my situation, if you're
not quite cemented in what youstand for, what your values are
and I know we're going to talkabout values, yes, we are you
can be really easily swayed, andit's not your fault, it's just
you know you haven't had thelife experience, you haven't
(06:42):
figured out where you stand.
You experience you haven'tfigured out where you stand.
You're sort of chasing adangling carrot and someone's
going to help you get there, andI think a lot of young artists
find themselves in thatsituation, right.
So, yeah, those things get inthe way of finding out who you
are and yeah, so I do think themore mentors we can have, yeah,
as women, the better, like, ifyou go back and you think, hey,
(07:06):
this was the moment, creatively,with my voice, I really stepped
into it and what was the switch?
Jen (07:12):
Like what was Last year.
Emm (07:15):
Still finding it yeah.
Jen (07:17):
I'm just curious, because what's the lesson in like
flipping that switch so peoplecan get there faster?
Emm (07:23):
I would just have loved to have gotten there faster, for
myself, for myself, I'm with you, we don't need to spend that
time.
So I think what it is is maybegetting to know yourself a
little bit sooner.
And so what does that look like?
I do think that the clearer youcan be on what's informing your
(07:47):
actions right so what's drivingthe bus.
So in my situation, I've alwayshad the need to be heard right
so at any cost almost, and thatstems back from really not
knowing myself very well in alot of like childhood stuff.
So, like, could someone uncoverthat a little bit sooner, maybe
(08:12):
?
Jen (08:12):
maybe it's just about being around people who can
illuminate that path for you andthey're not imposing their own
kind of agenda on you, whichhappens so much to young artists
, young entrepreneurs, you knowmuch to young artists, young
entrepreneurs, you know, andwhen you were at that early
stage in creating songs foryourself and collaborating with
other established artists, didthey demonstrate anything that
(08:34):
you have then carried forward inhow you would work with a young
artist today?
Emm (08:38):
Absolutely.
You don't sing with David Bowieand not learn anything.
Yeah, there was an air ofprofessionalism with him and I
think when someone has achievedso much, they're not trying to
prove themselves anymore, right?
So a lot of people are reallycaught up in the optics of
success.
So, you know, I got to make itlook like I'm doing really well.
(09:00):
He had done very well, right?
So there was no like part ofhim that was trying to impress
anyone anymore and because ofthat there was just the veil
pulled back on his process, sovery driven by curiosity.
He was very professional, like Isaid.
(09:22):
So if there was something wrongin a situation I think this can
apply to anyone who's running acompany you know, just stop,
Okay, something's not working.
Well, just stop, take a minute,ask the questions that need to
be asked, Take care of thepeople who are involved, right,
and just sort of see the lay ofthe land so I really learned
(09:43):
that from him.
And just sort of see the lay ofthe land.
So I really learned that fromhim.
And also that fame is just kindof a shit show.
It was interesting to see himwalk around New York and just
sort of be done with peopleapproaching him and to see that
the fire in him was really aboutcreating and curiosity and like
the next album and the work.
(10:04):
So I'm trying to just sharewhat I know with people who are
open to it.
So sometimes that's a youngartist who you know lacks the
confidence to use their voice.
Sometimes it's someone in acorporate setting who wants to
(10:25):
bring their voice forward, learnto be a better speaker, sort of
work with executive presence.
But what I noticed is thatpeople take their voice for
granted.
Oh really yeah.
It's not like an instrumentlike a guitar or drum kit or
whatever where you can see it,take pictures of it, like, shine
it up.
For that reason, then it's onus, and then we have so many
(10:48):
insecurities about it we don'treally understand how it works.
We kind of think if our voiceis one way, then it's that way
forever.
Yeah.
And we also don't realize thatit changes as we change.
So just like you're not in thesame mood every day, your voice
isn't going to be the same everyday.
(11:08):
So I think bringing someacceptance to the voice is
really important, and also justknowing that you can learn a few
tips that could change the gamefor you.
Jen (11:20):
When you see people unlock that like, what's the outcome?
Emm (11:23):
It's really awesome because I do see so many people unlock
it.
It really comes down tolearning how to breathe.
We did this as babies.
We used our voice properly whenwe were babies.
Anyone who's been on a planehas heard a baby cry, and it's
not always a feeling, butthere's a clue in that that the
(11:48):
body's working the way that ittechnically was meant to work.
A baby would be unconsciouslyusing their diaphragm to make
the loudest sound, so over time,we've stopped using it, because
we need to be quiet in schooland we need to be cooperative
and this is really important forwomen, because we are
(12:10):
constantly judged for being loud, for using our voice In order
to embrace it.
You just have to learn thephysiology of how it works.
So that's you know.
You can go on YouTube and lookup diaphragmatic breathing and
just start doing it.
Jen (12:26):
Yeah, I'm just imagining being able to take a moment
maybe you're in a meeting, maybeyou're.
You're noticing that you'readjusting your style, You're not
speaking fully, You're notexpressing your ideas Just being
able to stop, breathe deeplylet go of those voices and then
kind of come forward as thoughyou know we're in the vocal
(12:47):
booth in the meeting room.
Emm (12:49):
It takes practice though.
Jen (12:50):
Yeah, it really does, yeah, and not fearing the response
that's coming on the other side,yes, which I'm imagining as an
artist is like how people wouldcritique the song, or like you
know what I mean Just thatfeedback and being so protective
of your heart.
Emm (13:04):
That's a really good point, and I think that the voice is a
mirror to who we are.
Jen (13:10):
Yeah.
Emm (13:11):
So if we are feeling a little sheepish with our voice,
there's probably something elseinside, right, that's where
we're a little bit fearful tobring forward.
So through practice, throughrepeated lessons, through just
having the environment to useyour voice in front of another
person which is really scary yousimply get better and then that
(13:33):
feeds your confidence, and thenyour confidence feeds your
voice.
It's like a loop.
Yeah Right.
Jen (13:38):
And when you're teaching people the executive presence
like is that the practice thatthey go through when they're
just trying to be influential inthe room?
Like what would be the thingspeople are working on in that,
in that moment to have moreexecutive presence, it all comes
back to breath and the voice,though, because we don't
consider them as importantpieces of our day to day.
Emm (14:08):
Then we're kind of going around unconsciously doing
things and then wondering oh whydid I lose my voice in that
talk?
Jen (14:14):
Yeah, and I've been thinking about like the
confidence underpin and in yourbook, something that kind of
jumped out was, you know, yoursection on finding your values
and knowing your needs.
I feel like it's really hard tofind our confidence until you
solve that part Absolutely.
Yeah, when was it that youreally started to kind of lock
in to your values as an artistand knowing your needs?
(14:38):
Jen?
Emm (14:39):
that's a good question because it's evolving, I know,
and it's not.
Jen (14:42):
It's not like one time and it's done.
Emm (14:45):
Yeah, and I don't think it's useful for me to say, like
you know, in this, in 2020, Irealized what my values were and
now I'm good.
I think that it's about comingout of the unconscious, about
again what's driving the busright, so we can say all of this
(15:05):
stuff like, oh, we, you knowkindness is important and and
empathy and creativity andhonesty, but like if we can
challenge ourselves to look atwhere we're in a deficit with
those things and not beatourselves up because, again, we
have so much pressure onourselves as women to be awesome
(15:26):
all the time, but like maybewhat could serve you?
You know, like I've asked peoplevarious times to make a list of
their five most importantvalues, and you know they'll
make the list and then I'll askthem a few more questions and
then later I'll ask them okay,rank those values for a second.
Like, just where do you thinkyou are with all of those?
(15:46):
And having a way to measurewhere we are is sometimes
helpful because you can look atit on paper and say, oh yeah,
like this is really important tome, but I'm actually not
spending any time on it then youcan make some informed
decisions about what you'regoing to do to help yourself.
Really not like help everyoneelse, help yourself.
(16:08):
Move the needle on that value.
Jen (16:11):
Had there been values that have surfaced in the last two
years that that surprised you,or would you say they're kind of
still core and foundationalstill core and foundational
every day is a new opportunityto realize what the heck is
going on or not going on right.
Emm (16:29):
So for me, I guess the biggest one that has come to me
in the last two years is justlearning to trust and also to
realize that being heard isreally important to me.
I've mentioned that a few times, but it's kind of remarkable
that, like I, would go 25 yearsas a singer and realize, okay,
that's not totally about musicor even like creativity, it's
(16:56):
really about being heard right.
Jen (16:58):
Being heard means what for you?
Emm (17:01):
I think it would be that, um, I feel like there has been
some space to express myself,right?
So I I think we have to takethe onus off the other person to
receive you in the way that youwant to be received.
(17:22):
Yeah, because then you know,we're setting ourselves up for
some kind of expectation andmaybe disappointment, but like
just having the space to express.
So what does that look like foranyone who's listening?
Is that finding a supportivefriend?
(17:42):
Is that working with yourpartner so that they can hear
you without talking over you?
Or is it journaling?
And I think even what you'redoing, Jen, like with this
podcast, you've created anenvironment that is empowering
for people.
Jen (17:59):
Well, and as you were talking, talking, I was asking
myself that question being heardfor me means I'm giving myself
time to hear myself.
Emm (18:08):
Yeah, because I was running hard for nine years in a
startup hard, like we're talkingback-to-back meetings no, no
space and the dynamic ofsomewhat of trying to prove
myself and that racket doesn'tlend any time to really allowing
(18:30):
myself to be heard that's soimportant, what you just brought
up, and I think if I wish thatI could inspire people to do
anything, it's that I wish they,you know, I could inspire
people to clear the space sothey could have what you're
talking about.
For me, yeah, you can't clearany space if you can't sleep or
(19:00):
if you're having a dysfunctionalrelationship with your kids or
whatever, so you kind of have totrace those breadcrumbs back to
like what is actually gettingin the way.
Jen (19:11):
Yeah, and we all do it like we all have our vices right.
My philosophy is, if I canintroduce one new practice a
month and get good at that onenew practice a month and get
good at that.
So last month it was coldplunging and I was like I'm
going to do it for 30 daysbecause I have a great guest and
(19:32):
she inspired me so much aboutthe health benefits, and then
now I'm layering in themeditation.
But this is the goal of justtrying to clear some of that way
that I was just distractingmyself, to be quite honest, and
you can't hear anything.
Emm (19:46):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think I've set myself up for
sure of thinking people have tobe perfect.
I have to be awesome or atleast look like it's going
awesomely.
But you can do those thingslike you're talking about, like
experiment, and have fun and tryout things with with it almost
being like a vision forexploration.
(20:10):
Yeah, let's just talk aboutyour book.
How easy or difficult was itfor you to write this book?
It was exciting and I think Iwas propelled by the idea of
having a book, but it was verydifficult to get it right Again,
that perfectionism so I stoppedand started it three times.
But having Michael who is myhe's, I got a husband out of my
(20:35):
book deal.
I just want to say that that'samazing Michael Holmes, who's my
partner, and he is an editor atECW, the company that published
my book.
For myself and for so manyother people, having a guide who
is incredibly inspiring andreally tuned into, like helping
(20:59):
you tell your actual story, isso important.
Then you have a almost like apartner in the whole process, as
someone waiting to read yournext chapter.
So again like collaboration,right, not just doing it all on
your own, which is so hard.
I think is really important.
Jen (21:20):
For you telling your story, like, like, were there just
common pitfalls in that?
Was it like, oh, is this thatgreat?
Like, what?
What's the robber of thefreedom of telling the story?
Yeah, we all do that, don't we?
Yes, we do.
I see this with almost everyguest who comes on.
Emm (21:37):
Maybe it's a lack of celebration, because that's
something I see in my coaching.
Is that a lot of forward motion?
People can take some steps andmake big realizations, but
there's not a lot ofacknowledgement about the things
that we do, because it feelsmaybe selfish.
What is?
Jen (21:57):
it for you.
I think there's a disqualifyingand a diminishing natural
pattern that I still have towork through, and I believe that
the root cause is that itwasn't safe for me to shine
bright and freely, withoutjealousy or repercussions around
(22:17):
me.
So I'll almost get to theself-criticism as a way to cope.
It's not as strong as it usedto be, but it's still always
there.
And then I think, maybe if I'mtoo celebratory of where things
are at, and then what if it goesaway?
Maybe?
that will be my next month.
Put celebration into the mix.
(22:39):
Yeah, totally.
Put celebration into the mix?
Yeah, totally, as you are kindof in a new season for yourself
here.
Like what's going to be on thehorizon for you More music
coaching, Like what's the visionforward for you?
Emm (22:51):
I'm really okay with being in transition right now.
Yeah, I'm going back to school.
I'm going to studypsychological science.
I have a new band with mypartner that we're working on.
We've got maybe two or threesongs done and then just finding
a path to help other peoplethrough some of the things that
(23:12):
we've been talking about Reallyworking on presence and voice
and trying to share those ideasa little more widely.
So I'm in the process ofdeveloping a course.
Jen (23:23):
And what can people expect from the course?
Emm (23:25):
Well, I noticed that when I'm teaching people, when we're
doing vocal training, everyoneis different, so everyone's got
their own unique challenges,their own story, their own
insecurities, but the process isvery similar to move people
(23:45):
forward.
So what I'm trying to do iscreate a foundational course
that will teach people aboutexactly what I was talking about
breath.
Also, there's a whole part ofusing the voice where we can
direct the voice so the soundcan move in a certain line, and
(24:06):
that's something that isuniversal, that people
inevitably have to learn to do,and then relaxation, and they
all work together to create astrong voice.
Jen (24:16):
So I'd love to be able to just package that out and have
more people learn it Well, it'sincredibly important, Like I
have literally been integratingall of your wisdom and knowledge
for now at least a week.
And I'm going to keep on goingbecause it's just that conscious
awareness and how quickly wecan shift more into that
(24:39):
powerful place of being rootedand speaking from that place.
And well, listen, I am takingthis forward.
I am challenging everyonelistening to, for all of us,
because I'm not a singer, I'venever been musically inclined,
but I can take these principlesforward.
I can apply them into my worktoo.
So thank you for being here.
(24:59):
Thank you for everything you'vejust offered us and shared with
us.
It's been so wonderful.
Emm (25:04):
Thank you for what you do and I'm really really honored
that you asked.
Jen (25:08):
Thank you for joining us.
Don't forget to follow us onInstagram and LinkedIn, where we
transform the wisdom from ourpodcast into practical tips,
tools and takeaways for yourleadership journey.
Find us at gritgracepodcast.
See you next week.
Today I sit down with three-time Juno Award-nominated
recording artist, em Griner.
Emm (00:06):
Even when I was singing with David Bowie, I was still
navigating my voice.
But that is what you have to do.
You can take the lessons, butyou got to get out there and do
it too.
I just happen to be doing itwith a major rock legend.
Jen (00:23):
She's recorded over 20 albums and toured the world as a
solo artist and with DavidBowie.
M Greiner's story is trulyinspiring.
In this episode, discover howto access confidence through
your voice, speak your needs andexpress your true self.
Let's dive in.
I am thrilled to be speakingwith M Greiner, a three-time
(00:45):
Juno Award nominated recordingartist.
I've been deep in your book forthe better part of a week.
Your book is the Healing Powerof Singing.
Raise your Voice, change yourLife.
What Touring with David Bowie,single Parenting and Ditching
the Music Business Taught Me in25 Easy Steps and lots of tips
in there that we will be talkingabout.
If you go back to some of theearlier lessons learned as an
(01:08):
artist, what were some of thosepivotal moments for you that
really shaped your trajectory?
Emm (01:14):
First of all, thanks for having me.
I'm really happy to be here.
I think that the opportunity tobe creative as a young person
probably shaped a lot, and myparents, they ran their own
newspaper out of our basement,so it was this great glimpse of
entrepreneurs working, beingcreative, making money.
(01:36):
So, yeah, those things reallyshaped the decisions I made
towards.
You know, like starting a demoon my own and like put a band
together on my own.
I never felt worried aboutdoing those things because I
felt like it would always workout.
Jen (01:52):
So they were obviously demonstrating and role modeling,
but were they equallyencouraging you to take those
risks and think outside the box?
Emm (01:59):
They weren't encouraging in the way that maybe, like a
teacher, would be encouraging,yeah, but there was an
environment created where wecould be creative.
Yeah, we lived in the country.
There was literally nothing todo and, I think, out of
necessity, um, just writingsongs, playing instruments.
(02:22):
It became something that theyyou know, they they did
encourage.
I do remember there being apoint, though, when it started
to get close to the end of highschool, where I think there was
a little bit of trepidation over.
You know, her music is nowgoing to be what she puts her
(02:45):
whole life into right.
Yeah, and I think, with parents, they need to see a magazine
cover, an award nomination mineanyway they needed to see that
the world would embrace what Iwas doing before they could
completely get on board.
Jen (03:00):
I know that a lot of artists like they can feel that
they are an artist inside ofthem.
Did you identify as a vocalartist like that early as well,
like you just knew sing thesongs I was writing.
Emm (03:12):
So singing has been like this thing that I'm like, oh man
, I know I can't sing like TinaTurner or whoever, so what do I
do to get a little bit closer tothat?
(03:33):
So I took vocal lessons, Evenwhen I was singing with David
Bowie.
I wasn't really at the top ofmy game Like I.
I remember having kind of a lotof just, I was still navigating
my voice, but that is what youhave to do.
It's like you can take thelessons, but you got to get out
(03:53):
there and do it too.
So I just happened to be doingit with a major rock legend.
Jen (04:00):
Yeah, when you got that gig , was there a difference in that
moment with how you sawyourself?
Or was it just like the worldtelling you that, hey, you made
it.
And you, you've always kind offelt like you were confident,
naturally.
Emm (04:15):
I think that Bowie experience was twofold.
So I mean, I grew up listeningto Duran Duran.
Um, all those British bandsthat listened to Bowie right.
So to actually sing with him.
It definitely satisfied thiscreative part of me.
But when you're in your 20s,ego is super running the show.
(04:35):
So I remember kind of comingout of that experience feeling
like, okay, by then I had beendropped from a major label.
No Canadian record label wouldlike look at me and I was sort
of like you know, okay, well, Ididn't get this, but I got this
and it's pretty awesome andeveryone wants to talk to me
about it.
I also think that it gave mepermission to be braver.
(05:00):
So the ego is not like totallyit's not a horrible thing, it's
like braver.
So the ego is not like totallyit's not a horrible thing, it's
like it can be a vehicle, right,yeah.
It definitely gave me someenergy to say like, hey, I am a
singer, right, even if I wasn'tquite there yet getting the
permission to to step into thatrole.
(05:23):
So for me it was Bowie, but foranyone else it could be a new
job or a new way of looking atsomething or you know, just kind
of an awakening.
Jen (05:34):
When you're not an artist, you might be chasing the job,
the title, the role.
There's been a ton of layoffsthat have that have happened, so
it's like who are you withoutthe blank, and so I just feel
like that's the work.
When you were that young,collaborating with artists like
that, did you find that it waseasy and natural for you to
(05:55):
authentically be creative, orwere you trying to appease and
adjust a little bit along theway?
Emm (06:01):
I was completely appeasing and adjusting.
There were certainly timeswhere I would create something
or write something that feltreally great, really energizing.
But I am a sponge, so thepeople around me, the
environment, they reallyinfluence what I do and I'm sure
this resonates with a lot ofpeople listening.
(06:22):
Yeah, you know the problem withthat.
Sometimes, when you're youngerand in my situation, if you're
not quite cemented in what youstand for, what your values are
and I know we're going to talkabout values, yes, we are you
can be really easily swayed, andit's not your fault, it's just
you know you haven't had thelife experience, you haven't
(06:42):
figured out where you stand.
You experience you haven'tfigured out where you stand.
You're sort of chasing adangling carrot and someone's
going to help you get there, andI think a lot of young artists
find themselves in thatsituation, right.
So, yeah, those things get inthe way of finding out who you
are and yeah, so I do think themore mentors we can have, yeah,
as women, the better, like, ifyou go back and you think, hey,
(07:06):
this was the moment, creatively,with my voice, I really stepped
into it and what was the switch?
Jen (07:12):
Like what was Last year.
Emm (07:15):
Still finding it yeah.
Jen (07:17):
I'm just curious, because what's the lesson in like
flipping that switch so peoplecan get there faster?
Emm (07:23):
I would just have loved to have gotten there faster, for
myself, for myself, I'm with you, we don't need to spend that
time.
So I think what it is is maybegetting to know yourself a
little bit sooner.
And so what does that look like?
I do think that the clearer youcan be on what's informing your
(07:47):
actions right so what's drivingthe bus.
So in my situation, I've alwayshad the need to be heard right
so at any cost almost, and thatstems back from really not
knowing myself very well in alot of like childhood stuff.
So, like, could someone uncoverthat a little bit sooner, maybe
(08:12):
?
Jen (08:12):
maybe it's just about being around people who can
illuminate that path for you andthey're not imposing their own
kind of agenda on you, whichhappens so much to young artists
, young entrepreneurs, you knowmuch to young artists, young
entrepreneurs, you know, andwhen you were at that early
stage in creating songs foryourself and collaborating with
other established artists, didthey demonstrate anything that
(08:34):
you have then carried forward inhow you would work with a young
artist today?
Emm (08:38):
Absolutely.
You don't sing with David Bowieand not learn anything.
Yeah, there was an air ofprofessionalism with him and I
think when someone has achievedso much, they're not trying to
prove themselves anymore, right?
So a lot of people are reallycaught up in the optics of
success.
So, you know, I got to make itlook like I'm doing really well.
(09:00):
He had done very well, right?
So there was no like part ofhim that was trying to impress
anyone anymore and because ofthat there was just the veil
pulled back on his process, sovery driven by curiosity.
He was very professional, like Isaid.
(09:22):
So if there was something wrongin a situation I think this can
apply to anyone who's running acompany you know, just stop,
Okay, something's not working.
Well, just stop, take a minute,ask the questions that need to
be asked, Take care of thepeople who are involved, right,
and just sort of see the lay ofthe land so I really learned
(09:43):
that from him.
And just sort of see the lay ofthe land.
So I really learned that fromhim.
And also that fame is just kindof a shit show.
It was interesting to see himwalk around New York and just
sort of be done with peopleapproaching him and to see that
the fire in him was really aboutcreating and curiosity and like
the next album and the work.
(10:04):
So I'm trying to just sharewhat I know with people who are
open to it.
So sometimes that's a youngartist who you know lacks the
confidence to use their voice.
Sometimes it's someone in acorporate setting who wants to
(10:25):
bring their voice forward, learnto be a better speaker, sort of
work with executive presence.
But what I noticed is thatpeople take their voice for
granted.
Oh really yeah.
It's not like an instrumentlike a guitar or drum kit or
whatever where you can see it,take pictures of it, like, shine
it up.
For that reason, then it's onus, and then we have so many
(10:48):
insecurities about it we don'treally understand how it works.
We kind of think if our voiceis one way, then it's that way
forever.
Yeah.
And we also don't realize thatit changes as we change.
So just like you're not in thesame mood every day, your voice
isn't going to be the same everyday.
(11:08):
So I think bringing someacceptance to the voice is
really important, and also justknowing that you can learn a few
tips that could change the gamefor you.
Jen (11:20):
When you see people unlock that like, what's the outcome?
Emm (11:23):
It's really awesome because I do see so many people unlock
it.
It really comes down tolearning how to breathe.
We did this as babies.
We used our voice properly whenwe were babies.
Anyone who's been on a planehas heard a baby cry, and it's
not always a feeling, butthere's a clue in that that the
(11:48):
body's working the way that ittechnically was meant to work.
A baby would be unconsciouslyusing their diaphragm to make
the loudest sound, so over time,we've stopped using it, because
we need to be quiet in schooland we need to be cooperative
and this is really important forwomen, because we are
(12:10):
constantly judged for being loud, for using our voice In order
to embrace it.
You just have to learn thephysiology of how it works.
So that's you know.
You can go on YouTube and lookup diaphragmatic breathing and
just start doing it.
Jen (12:26):
Yeah, I'm just imagining being able to take a moment
maybe you're in a meeting, maybeyou're.
You're noticing that you'readjusting your style, You're not
speaking fully, You're notexpressing your ideas Just being
able to stop, breathe deeplylet go of those voices and then
kind of come forward as thoughyou know we're in the vocal
(12:47):
booth in the meeting room.
Emm (12:49):
It takes practice though.
Jen (12:50):
Yeah, it really does, yeah, and not fearing the response
that's coming on the other side,yes, which I'm imagining as an
artist is like how people wouldcritique the song, or like you
know what I mean Just thatfeedback and being so protective
of your heart.
Emm (13:04):
That's a really good point, and I think that the voice is a
mirror to who we are.
Jen (13:10):
Yeah.
Emm (13:11):
So if we are feeling a little sheepish with our voice,
there's probably something elseinside, right, that's where
we're a little bit fearful tobring forward.
So through practice, throughrepeated lessons, through just
having the environment to useyour voice in front of another
person which is really scary yousimply get better and then that
(13:33):
feeds your confidence, and thenyour confidence feeds your
voice.
It's like a loop.
Yeah Right.
Jen (13:38):
And when you're teaching people the executive presence
like is that the practice thatthey go through when they're
just trying to be influential inthe room?
Like what would be the thingspeople are working on in that,
in that moment to have moreexecutive presence, it all comes
back to breath and the voice,though, because we don't
consider them as importantpieces of our day to day.
Emm (14:08):
Then we're kind of going around unconsciously doing
things and then wondering oh whydid I lose my voice in that
talk?
Jen (14:14):
Yeah, and I've been thinking about like the
confidence underpin and in yourbook, something that kind of
jumped out was, you know, yoursection on finding your values
and knowing your needs.
I feel like it's really hard tofind our confidence until you
solve that part Absolutely.
Yeah, when was it that youreally started to kind of lock
in to your values as an artistand knowing your needs?
(14:38):
Jen?
Emm (14:39):
that's a good question because it's evolving, I know,
and it's not.
Jen (14:42):
It's not like one time and it's done.
Emm (14:45):
Yeah, and I don't think it's useful for me to say, like
you know, in this, in 2020, Irealized what my values were and
now I'm good.
I think that it's about comingout of the unconscious, about
again what's driving the busright, so we can say all of this
(15:05):
stuff like, oh, we, you knowkindness is important and and
empathy and creativity andhonesty, but like if we can
challenge ourselves to look atwhere we're in a deficit with
those things and not beatourselves up because, again, we
have so much pressure onourselves as women to be awesome
(15:26):
all the time, but like maybewhat could serve you?
You know, like I've asked peoplevarious times to make a list of
their five most importantvalues, and you know they'll
make the list and then I'll askthem a few more questions and
then later I'll ask them okay,rank those values for a second.
Like, just where do you thinkyou are with all of those?
(15:46):
And having a way to measurewhere we are is sometimes
helpful because you can look atit on paper and say, oh yeah,
like this is really important tome, but I'm actually not
spending any time on it then youcan make some informed
decisions about what you'regoing to do to help yourself.
Really not like help everyoneelse, help yourself.
(16:08):
Move the needle on that value.
Jen (16:11):
Had there been values that have surfaced in the last two
years that that surprised you,or would you say they're kind of
still core and foundationalstill core and foundational
every day is a new opportunityto realize what the heck is
going on or not going on right.
Emm (16:29):
So for me, I guess the biggest one that has come to me
in the last two years is justlearning to trust and also to
realize that being heard isreally important to me.
I've mentioned that a few times, but it's kind of remarkable
that, like I, would go 25 yearsas a singer and realize, okay,
that's not totally about musicor even like creativity, it's
(16:56):
really about being heard right.
Jen (16:58):
Being heard means what for you?
Emm (17:01):
I think it would be that, um, I feel like there has been
some space to express myself,right?
So I I think we have to takethe onus off the other person to
receive you in the way that youwant to be received.
(17:22):
Yeah, because then you know,we're setting ourselves up for
some kind of expectation andmaybe disappointment, but like
just having the space to express.
So what does that look like foranyone who's listening?
Is that finding a supportivefriend?
(17:42):
Is that working with yourpartner so that they can hear
you without talking over you?
Or is it journaling?
And I think even what you'redoing, Jen, like with this
podcast, you've created anenvironment that is empowering
for people.
Jen (17:59):
Well, and as you were talking, talking, I was asking
myself that question being heardfor me means I'm giving myself
time to hear myself.
Emm (18:08):
Yeah, because I was running hard for nine years in a
startup hard, like we're talkingback-to-back meetings no, no
space and the dynamic ofsomewhat of trying to prove
myself and that racket doesn'tlend any time to really allowing
(18:30):
myself to be heard that's soimportant, what you just brought
up, and I think if I wish thatI could inspire people to do
anything, it's that I wish they,you know, I could inspire
people to clear the space sothey could have what you're
talking about.
For me, yeah, you can't clearany space if you can't sleep or
(19:00):
if you're having a dysfunctionalrelationship with your kids or
whatever, so you kind of have totrace those breadcrumbs back to
like what is actually gettingin the way.
Jen (19:11):
Yeah, and we all do it like we all have our vices right.
My philosophy is, if I canintroduce one new practice a
month and get good at that onenew practice a month and get
good at that.
So last month it was coldplunging and I was like I'm
going to do it for 30 daysbecause I have a great guest and
(19:32):
she inspired me so much aboutthe health benefits, and then
now I'm layering in themeditation.
But this is the goal of justtrying to clear some of that way
that I was just distractingmyself, to be quite honest, and
you can't hear anything.
Emm (19:46):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think I've set myself up for
sure of thinking people have tobe perfect.
I have to be awesome or atleast look like it's going
awesomely.
But you can do those thingslike you're talking about, like
experiment, and have fun and tryout things with with it almost
being like a vision forexploration.
(20:10):
Yeah, let's just talk aboutyour book.
How easy or difficult was itfor you to write this book?
It was exciting and I think Iwas propelled by the idea of
having a book, but it was verydifficult to get it right Again,
that perfectionism so I stoppedand started it three times.
But having Michael who is myhe's, I got a husband out of my
(20:35):
book deal.
I just want to say that that'samazing Michael Holmes, who's my
partner, and he is an editor atECW, the company that published
my book.
For myself and for so manyother people, having a guide who
is incredibly inspiring andreally tuned into, like helping
(20:59):
you tell your actual story, isso important.
Then you have a almost like apartner in the whole process, as
someone waiting to read yournext chapter.
So again like collaboration,right, not just doing it all on
your own, which is so hard.
I think is really important.
Jen (21:20):
For you telling your story, like, like, were there just
common pitfalls in that?
Was it like, oh, is this thatgreat?
Like, what?
What's the robber of thefreedom of telling the story?
Yeah, we all do that, don't we?
Yes, we do.
I see this with almost everyguest who comes on.
Emm (21:37):
Maybe it's a lack of celebration, because that's
something I see in my coaching.
Is that a lot of forward motion?
People can take some steps andmake big realizations, but
there's not a lot ofacknowledgement about the things
that we do, because it feelsmaybe selfish.
What is?
Jen (21:57):
it for you.
I think there's a disqualifyingand a diminishing natural
pattern that I still have towork through, and I believe that
the root cause is that itwasn't safe for me to shine
bright and freely, withoutjealousy or repercussions around
(22:17):
me.
So I'll almost get to theself-criticism as a way to cope.
It's not as strong as it usedto be, but it's still always
there.
And then I think, maybe if I'mtoo celebratory of where things
are at, and then what if it goesaway?
Maybe?
that will be my next month.
Put celebration into the mix.
(22:39):
Yeah, totally.
Put celebration into the mix?
Yeah, totally, as you are kindof in a new season for yourself
here.
Like what's going to be on thehorizon for you More music
coaching, Like what's the visionforward for you?
Emm (22:51):
I'm really okay with being in transition right now.
Yeah, I'm going back to school.
I'm going to studypsychological science.
I have a new band with mypartner that we're working on.
We've got maybe two or threesongs done and then just finding
a path to help other peoplethrough some of the things that
(23:12):
we've been talking about Reallyworking on presence and voice
and trying to share those ideasa little more widely.
So I'm in the process ofdeveloping a course.
Jen (23:23):
And what can people expect from the course?
Emm (23:25):
Well, I noticed that when I'm teaching people, when we're
doing vocal training, everyoneis different, so everyone's got
their own unique challenges,their own story, their own
insecurities, but the process isvery similar to move people
(23:45):
forward.
So what I'm trying to do iscreate a foundational course
that will teach people aboutexactly what I was talking about
breath.
Also, there's a whole part ofusing the voice where we can
direct the voice so the soundcan move in a certain line, and
(24:06):
that's something that isuniversal, that people
inevitably have to learn to do,and then relaxation, and they
all work together to create astrong voice.
Jen (24:16):
So I'd love to be able to just package that out and have
more people learn it Well, it'sincredibly important, Like I
have literally been integratingall of your wisdom and knowledge
for now at least a week.
And I'm going to keep on goingbecause it's just that conscious
awareness and how quickly wecan shift more into that
(24:39):
powerful place of being rootedand speaking from that place.
And well, listen, I am takingthis forward.
I am challenging everyonelistening to, for all of us,
because I'm not a singer, I'venever been musically inclined,
but I can take these principlesforward.
I can apply them into my worktoo.
So thank you for being here.
(24:59):
Thank you for everything you'vejust offered us and shared with
us.
It's been so wonderful.
Emm (25:04):
Thank you for what you do and I'm really really honored
that you asked.
Jen (25:08):
Thank you for joining us.
Don't forget to follow us onInstagram and LinkedIn, where we
transform the wisdom from ourpodcast into practical tips,
tools and takeaways for yourleadership journey.
Find us at gritgracepodcast.
See you next week.
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