March 11, 2024 • 20 mins
In this compelling episode, hosts Jen and Lindsay delve deep into the heart of resilience, exploring how the challenges we face in early life can sculpt a spirit of endurance and growth. Lindsay Tucker, a seasoned special education teacher with over a decade of experience, shares her personal journey of overcoming adversity, including the profound impact of losing her father at a young age. Together, Jen and Lindsay discuss the power of resilience in personal and professional development, offering insights into fostering this critical trait in children and adults alike.
Through a mix of heartfelt personal stories and professional expertise, this episode sheds light on the importance of navigating discomfort, the transformative potential of education, and the innovative teaching practices that can support all learners. Whether you're a parent, educator, or anyone looking to cultivate resilience in yourself and others, this conversation provides valuable principles and practical advice for empowering resilience in the face of life's challenges.
Key Points
- Personal and professional perspective on loss and resilience
- Practical strategies for developing resilience in children
- Study featured on the Dr. Andrew Huberman Podcast (link here) on the impact of intelligence versus effort feedback on children's motivation and performance.
Join us for a deeply personal and insightful conversation on growth, overcoming adversity, and the enduring power of resilience. Follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn for more practical tips, tools, and takeaways for your leadership journey.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jen (00:01):
Ever wonder how early life challenges sculpt the resilient
spirit.
Our guest, Lindsay Tucker,brings over a decade of
experience as a specialeducation teacher, with a
background in leadingkindergarten grade four and
supporting multi-languagelearners.
Lindsay (00:16):
It's helping them navigate that discomfort and
it's helping them recognize thatit's okay to be uncomfortable
and that it's okay to findthings tricky and hard and it's
okay to kind of not know whatyou're doing In this episode.
Jen (00:31):
We both share the deeply personal journey of losing our
fathers and how it forgedresilience.
Additionally, lindsay bringsher expertise as an educator to
the forefront and we discussfostering resilience in kids.
This is a personal, heartfeltconversation on resilience,
growth and the power ofovercoming adversity.
Let's dive in.
(00:53):
Welcome to the podcast everyone.
I am actually very excited fortoday's topic.
We are going to speak about thepower of resilience in personal
and professional growth, andI'm sitting here with Lindsay,
who really has an incrediblebackstory and we have a lot in
common, both you and I.
We're going to dig into how weform resilience, both for
(01:16):
ourselves.
How does that shape ourpersonal growth over time?
You bring such a magnificentperspective to the table because
you are a teacher.
My hope is that really peoplelistening can take a lot away
for themselves, but also, as weparent and mentor children, some
fundamental principles as itrelates to really empowering
(01:38):
resilience in the kids.
First and foremost, lindsay,let's just set the stage on your
backstory.
Lindsay (01:45):
When I was five, my father passed away from a
massive heart attack.
He passed away July 2nd and hepassed away during the night.
I actually woke up to my mom atthe hospital with my dad and I
didn't know what was going on.
I remember the day vividly.
(02:08):
It was a beautiful sunny dayand my mom had come home and she
had to deliver the news that mydad had passed away.
I remember not fullycomprehending what it really
meant, and my little brother wasalso there beside me and him
being like is he just on areally long fishing trip?
Trying to process all of thatinformation at such a young age
(02:33):
was so difficult.
Jen (02:36):
You were five, he was 42.
My father also passed away at42 from a heart attack.
Lindsay (02:42):
I was 16.
Jen (02:44):
I can't even begin to imagine how a five-year-old
starts to process this.
We wanted to pan back and thinkabout how do these early
experiences shape resilience inus?
Where did resilience start toform as a trial?
Lindsay (02:59):
from what you can remember, this is a great
question and I thought about ita lot, because at five did I
really know what resilience was?
I'm not sure I did, but as Iage, my definition of resilience
has really changed.
When I was younger, I thinkwhat I did to protect myself and
make my way through life was tojust try and be good and to not
(03:21):
cause too much trouble and tobe kind and to be helpful.
That really helped me getthrough what I needed to get
through.
As I got older, more into highschool and university, my
definition of resilience waskind of just plow through, work
hard, get it done, reach yourgoals, don't give up, don't stop
(03:44):
, and I had the energy to do it.
Now, at 42, my definition ofresilience has changed as well,
where I recognize the need forrest and I recognize the need
for reflection to help give methe confidence and the courage
to make it through difficultmoments.
Jen (04:02):
Just into discomfort early on as a kid.
For me, I got comfortable inthe uncomfortable, but it forged
this.
Push forward, work hard.
The only person that's going tohelp you out is you, like
you're a teacher, so did thisany of this early day stuff
influence you to become ateacher?
Lindsay (04:21):
Absolutely.
So I really like your pointaround sitting in discomfort and
I think that we have to sit indiscomfort and whether that's a
forced sit because of thetraumatic events that happened,
like the passing of my father,or because we choose to sit
there in something that'sdifficult and we just don't want
to walk away because you wantto gain the lessons.
So resilience is built when wesit and we spend time in
discomfort and reflecting ondiscomfort.
(04:44):
To build resiliency doesn'thappen quickly.
It takes a long time to reallyreflect on that discomfort and
how it built resiliency in us.
And I think about my studentsand building resilience.
It's helping them navigate thatdiscomfort and it's helping
them recognize that it's okay tobe uncomfortable and that it's
(05:07):
okay to find things tricky andhard and it's okay to kind of
not know what you're doing.
And so when I think of specialed students and I think of some
of the discomfort that they mustface in the school system,
really building up theirresilience, to know that I have
(05:28):
confidence in them, that theycan accomplish certain things in
the school system, is soimportant and that really hinges
on the relationships that Icreate with them and it really
is for me being so present andalso really remembering to give
(05:48):
a fresh start.
And I think a fresh start is keyfor a number of reasons,
because when we face difficultmoments or difficult times, as a
teacher I don't want to hang onto those.
I can't really take thingspersonally.
It's recognizing that they'resitting in something that's
uncomfortable, somethingbehavior is a reflection of some
(06:09):
uncomfortable situation that'shappening, and my job as a
teacher is to give them thatfresh start, is to look at them
with fresh eyes every singletime I see them and to really
try and support them throughthose difficult moments and to
come back with a new perspectiveand a fresh start for them as
they re-enter my room or myspace.
That really builds theirconfidence and it really helps
(06:32):
them become resilient in theclassroom.
Jen (06:35):
And what sort of innovative teaching practices are you
applying in the classroom thesedays?
Lindsay (06:42):
One of the things that's interesting in education
that's happening right now issomething called the
de-streaming model.
Prior to this model, studentswere pulled out for extra
support and that system has alot of benefits.
And this might be acontroversial opinion or a hot
topic for a lot of teachers, butI like the idea of the
de-streaming and I love the ideaof de-streaming when it's done
(07:06):
well, because I really see thebenefits.
But it has to be done well andall teachers have to believe in
the model and they all have towork together to make the
de-streaming model work.
And as we navigate through thenew de-streaming, we're still
figuring it out, so it's a bitmessy and that's okay.
We should function in a bit ofmessiness while we figure it out
(07:28):
because that's where thelearning happens.
But ideally for me,de-streaming would be all of the
students are in the sameclassroom and there's teachers
that are supporting each otherand supporting the students.
So the benefit of de-streamingfor me that I see is a
confidence in the confidence inthe children, because they're
exposed to new learning, theirsocial circles often grow, they
are able to experience learningthat maybe they wouldn't
(07:52):
otherwise, because they're beingpulled out, just teach specific
things.
So for me, de-streaming is, whendone well and with support, is
a model that is reallybeneficial to students.
Why is this so controversial?
It's difficult, and I recognizehow difficult it is to do, and
I recognize that it's not clean,in the sense that we're still
(08:12):
trying to figure out whatsupport would look like in the
classroom.
And do we even have enoughsupport, like our teachers
supported well enough to runthis model and our students
supported well enough tofunction in this model?
So this isn't my own teachingstrategy necessarily, but it's
something that some of theboards are moving to that I
(08:33):
believe will be a good model.
Jen (08:36):
It's fascinating and I don't understand really the old
model or the new model.
Lindsay (08:40):
So I'll give you a personal example.
So I was a student with alearning disability, and when
you have a learning disability,it means that you have average
intelligence, or this is how Iwould explain it you have
average intelligence, but maybeyou just don't learn like
everybody else in the system.
So sometimes the curriculum ismore specific and tailored to
exactly what I need it as astudent.
And then the other, the class,the whole class might be moving
(09:03):
at a different pace.
So with de-streaming, it meansthat all of the students are in
the classroom all of the time,sort of being taught by the
homeroom teacher or specialeducation teacher like myself,
and that there's a flow in theclassroom where there's multiple
entry points for all of thestudents.
So instead of pulling me outfor math and language, I would
(09:25):
be in the classroom and therewould be an entry point that I
would be able to access thecurriculum.
And because the classroom isbeing taught to all of the
students, if I met myexpectations but I wanted to go
further and try other things inthe classroom, that would be
available to me because therewould be multiple entry points
(09:45):
for all of the students, and soonce I tried something, I could
try something a little bit moredifficult or try something new.
So the de-streaming model is,for me, exciting because
students are exposed to so muchand they have the ability to
learn from their peers.
They have the ability to trythings that maybe otherwise they
(10:08):
wouldn't be trying.
They're exposed to differenttypes of thinking.
I think a lot of learning comesfrom listening to your peers
and how they think and sharingyour thinking and working
through your thinking.
And oh, did that make sense, orwas there a more efficient way
to get there?
And the de-streaming model forme, if I look down hopefully
(10:31):
five, ten years it's thisbeautiful relationship between
the teacher supporting theclassroom, the students
supporting each other, lots oflearning going on that meets the
needs of all of the students inthe classroom and students
really sharing and collaboratingtogether.
Are we there yet?
No, is it messy at thebeginning?
(10:53):
Absolutely, but I think in thatmess will come some growth and
the growth will be reallybeneficial to a lot of students.
Jen (11:04):
Is this not how the world operates?
You have to understanddiversity of thinking, and so
being exposed to that early onas a child is such a preparation
for the future.
I want to talk a little bitabout kids and resilience and
the role that feedback plays intheir growth and development.
(11:26):
There's a podcast that AndrewHuberman shared recently, and he
talked about a study that wasdone, and the study's title is
called Praise for IntelligenceCan Undermine Motivation and
Performance, and it wasperformed by Dr Carol Dweck, and
they measured what do kids dowhen faced with a problem set,
(11:51):
and so the kids who receivedintelligence-based feedback when
presented with a problem thatthey knew they could perform
well on, or maybe an unknown orchallenging problem, they tended
to select problems that theyknew they could do well on.
The kids who receivedeffort-based feedback when
presented with problems thatwere difficult or hard, those
(12:16):
kids tend to choose hardproblems because they knew that
they could learn somethingthrough that, and so I thought
that was fascinating.
It's so cool.
So do you see this play out?
Lindsay (12:28):
in real life and let's talk about this.
Yeah, for me this is soexciting.
We want to see kids workinghard, we want to see kids giving
their best effort and we're sostuck sometimes on grades and
we're so stuck on like did I geta percentage on my test?
But really what I want to seeis growth.
I want to know that my studentsstarted somewhere and they made
progress.
And sometimes progress for kidslooks different and it's hard
(12:51):
to sometimes give a mark becausetheir effort was so amazing.
And where do I show them that?
In a mark?
But if I can give it to themthrough praise, through feedback
, that's the most exciting thingfor me as a teacher.
Marks are important in some ways.
I want to know that you aregrowing.
(13:11):
Yeah, I want to know that theeffort that you're putting into
your work is because your thefeedback has been around you
making a change or you growing,or you seeing the results of
your hard work.
Yeah, and those are the lifeskills that go far beyond the 80
(13:32):
that you got in grade six thatyou're never going to remember.
Jen (13:34):
Yeah, not only is it important for children, but the
study also suggested how youpraise yourself as an adult.
This way will significantlyyield improved performance.
So congratulating yourself onyour hard efforts versus your
results was another key takeawayfor adults in resilience.
Lindsay (13:54):
I agree with Carol Dhuak in the sense that I like
being praised for my effortversus the outcome.
It's not always easy becausethe fallback is, you know, for
my own children like, oh wow,you got a goal in hockey, but I
didn't praise all the time thatthey spent shooting pucks in the
garage, I didn't praise the theapplication of feedback that
(14:17):
they got from my husband aroundhow to make a shot, and that's
just a personal example, but Ijust praise the end result and I
want to remember to praise theactual journey to getting that
goal, or the actual journey togetting their desired outcome.
Jen (14:32):
The theme that I still want to continue to kind of weave
through here is the early day.
What people some people wouldcall trauma.
You know, I lost my fatheryoung.
You lost your father young.
I think when you live throughsome of those experiences, don't
necessarily fully see it astrauma, but gifts.
What is your perspective onthat?
Lindsay (14:54):
In those experiences of trauma, as hard as they are and
as difficult as they are, thereare these beautiful lessons or
these beautiful gifts thatsomebody has given you through
that trauma and I I want torecognize, like for me it's my
mom.
She, she, would carry this keychain and it said, just wing it.
(15:15):
And it was a source ofinspiration for me and also
sometimes a source of stress.
But from the gift that my momgave to me through the trauma
and watching her navigate, thetrauma was that, as a woman and
a person who's navigating theworld and trying to be resilient
(15:36):
, was that you know, have a plan.
It doesn't always goaccordingly.
So shift your thinking, youknow, persevere, try something
new, but stay the course.
And for me that's a gift that mymom gave me through watching
her experience some trauma as achild.
(15:57):
That is difficult and trauma isimpacts your whole life.
But I want to say, from thetrauma can also come some
beautiful gifts.
But you have to be willing toopen the gifts too Absolutely,
and it's hard, and you have tobe able to say how am I going to
flip my brain to see the giftsthat I got from it?
(16:19):
And it doesn't happenimmediately, it takes years, but
I think it's so necessary to beable to say not only was I hurt
, but I learned something and Igained some strength to be able
to recognize from the traumathat your resilience came from
gifts from somebody, something,somewhere, and for me it was my
(16:42):
mother watching that.
And for you, it was both.
Jen (16:45):
It was my father passed away when we were 16 and then 10
years later, my mother passedaway, and so there was a journey
through the 10 years once myfather passed away.
I would say I had a lot ofresistance towards my mother in
the beginning of that, but onceshe became ill I was on a fast
(17:08):
track to heal with her because Iknew I didn't have the time,
and so there was a lot of giftsin that too.
And I will say the gift for meis I was one of these people who
I didn't want to feel my griefcompletely.
I wanted to kind of musclethrough with my intelligence and
with my ambition, and the giftwas you have to feel it all.
(17:32):
And what I didn't know at thetime and I've since learned is
that the depths of my grief wereequal of how much I can love.
So I had so much grief, but Ithought there was something
wrong with me, like will this bethe thing that never ends?
And then someone, a great sortof therapist and healer, helped
(17:56):
me see that the depths of yourgrief is actually the degree to
which you love and care in thisworld.
And so do not judge your griefas something that is hindering
you.
And once I got that, there wasa couple of key lessons.
I mean it's still unfolding.
So this is the thing the giftsnever stop right.
Lindsay (18:13):
They don't stop and the healing never stops and
sometimes we think healingdoesn't mean we don't feel
sadness.
Healing doesn't mean we don'thave sorrow.
Healing doesn't mean we're nowokay with it.
Healing means I'm making someprogress, I'm holding space for
this and I'm okay to hold spacefor it.
I still getting ready for thispodcast, chatting with my mom.
(18:35):
I still cried about the deathof my father 37 years ago.
I still cry for maybe theexperiences I didn't have.
I don't think healing means wejust move on.
I think healing means we'velearned to hold space and we
think sometimes healing is so wejust go up.
(18:57):
But healing is also messy andhealing for me is just holding
space for the event.
That's me too, and that's oneof the things I've learned
through teaching and trying tobuild resilience and through my
childhood is that operating inmessy is okay, operating and not
being perfect is normal andokay.
(19:19):
And sitting again, we go backto sort of sitting in that
discomfort, sitting in themessiness, sitting in the
imperfection of whatever it isin my surroundings and saying
this is okay, I'm going to behere right now and this is okay.
And in this messiness and inthis imperfection and in this
(19:39):
time of discomfort will come anenormous amount of growth, but
in time I will know why.
It was messy, imperfect anduncomfortable.
Jen (19:53):
And it's hard and I think you have just completed the
podcast on a perfect note, andmay we all sit in our own
discomfort and messiness andapply that wisdom beautifully.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you, and beyond words,for being so honest and open and
vulnerable and sharing yourstory and the future, for
(20:18):
teaching and how we can thinkabout building a growth mindset
that fosters resilience in ourchildren, and so thank you for
being here.
That was great.
Thank you, thank you forjoining us.
Don't forget to follow us onInstagram and LinkedIn, where we
transform the wisdom from ourpodcast into practical tips,
tools and takeaways for yourleadership journey.
Find us at grit.
(20:39):
grace.
podcast.
See you next week.
Ever wonder how early life challenges sculpt the resilient
spirit.
Our guest, Lindsay Tucker,brings over a decade of
experience as a specialeducation teacher, with a
background in leadingkindergarten grade four and
supporting multi-languagelearners.
Lindsay (00:16):
It's helping them navigate that discomfort and
it's helping them recognize thatit's okay to be uncomfortable
and that it's okay to findthings tricky and hard and it's
okay to kind of not know whatyou're doing In this episode.
Jen (00:31):
We both share the deeply personal journey of losing our
fathers and how it forgedresilience.
Additionally, lindsay bringsher expertise as an educator to
the forefront and we discussfostering resilience in kids.
This is a personal, heartfeltconversation on resilience,
growth and the power ofovercoming adversity.
Let's dive in.
(00:53):
Welcome to the podcast everyone.
I am actually very excited fortoday's topic.
We are going to speak about thepower of resilience in personal
and professional growth, andI'm sitting here with Lindsay,
who really has an incrediblebackstory and we have a lot in
common, both you and I.
We're going to dig into how weform resilience, both for
(01:16):
ourselves.
How does that shape ourpersonal growth over time?
You bring such a magnificentperspective to the table because
you are a teacher.
My hope is that really peoplelistening can take a lot away
for themselves, but also, as weparent and mentor children, some
fundamental principles as itrelates to really empowering
(01:38):
resilience in the kids.
First and foremost, lindsay,let's just set the stage on your
backstory.
Lindsay (01:45):
When I was five, my father passed away from a
massive heart attack.
He passed away July 2nd and hepassed away during the night.
I actually woke up to my mom atthe hospital with my dad and I
didn't know what was going on.
I remember the day vividly.
(02:08):
It was a beautiful sunny dayand my mom had come home and she
had to deliver the news that mydad had passed away.
I remember not fullycomprehending what it really
meant, and my little brother wasalso there beside me and him
being like is he just on areally long fishing trip?
Trying to process all of thatinformation at such a young age
(02:33):
was so difficult.
Jen (02:36):
You were five, he was 42.
My father also passed away at42 from a heart attack.
Lindsay (02:42):
I was 16.
Jen (02:44):
I can't even begin to imagine how a five-year-old
starts to process this.
We wanted to pan back and thinkabout how do these early
experiences shape resilience inus?
Where did resilience start toform as a trial?
Lindsay (02:59):
from what you can remember, this is a great
question and I thought about ita lot, because at five did I
really know what resilience was?
I'm not sure I did, but as Iage, my definition of resilience
has really changed.
When I was younger, I thinkwhat I did to protect myself and
make my way through life was tojust try and be good and to not
(03:21):
cause too much trouble and tobe kind and to be helpful.
That really helped me getthrough what I needed to get
through.
As I got older, more into highschool and university, my
definition of resilience waskind of just plow through, work
hard, get it done, reach yourgoals, don't give up, don't stop
(03:44):
, and I had the energy to do it.
Now, at 42, my definition ofresilience has changed as well,
where I recognize the need forrest and I recognize the need
for reflection to help give methe confidence and the courage
to make it through difficultmoments.
Jen (04:02):
Just into discomfort early on as a kid.
For me, I got comfortable inthe uncomfortable, but it forged
this.
Push forward, work hard.
The only person that's going tohelp you out is you, like
you're a teacher, so did thisany of this early day stuff
influence you to become ateacher?
Lindsay (04:21):
Absolutely.
So I really like your pointaround sitting in discomfort and
I think that we have to sit indiscomfort and whether that's a
forced sit because of thetraumatic events that happened,
like the passing of my father,or because we choose to sit
there in something that'sdifficult and we just don't want
to walk away because you wantto gain the lessons.
So resilience is built when wesit and we spend time in
discomfort and reflecting ondiscomfort.
(04:44):
To build resiliency doesn'thappen quickly.
It takes a long time to reallyreflect on that discomfort and
how it built resiliency in us.
And I think about my studentsand building resilience.
It's helping them navigate thatdiscomfort and it's helping
them recognize that it's okay tobe uncomfortable and that it's
(05:07):
okay to find things tricky andhard and it's okay to kind of
not know what you're doing.
And so when I think of specialed students and I think of some
of the discomfort that they mustface in the school system,
really building up theirresilience, to know that I have
(05:28):
confidence in them, that theycan accomplish certain things in
the school system, is soimportant and that really hinges
on the relationships that Icreate with them and it really
is for me being so present andalso really remembering to give
(05:48):
a fresh start.
And I think a fresh start is keyfor a number of reasons,
because when we face difficultmoments or difficult times, as a
teacher I don't want to hang onto those.
I can't really take thingspersonally.
It's recognizing that they'resitting in something that's
uncomfortable, somethingbehavior is a reflection of some
(06:09):
uncomfortable situation that'shappening, and my job as a
teacher is to give them thatfresh start, is to look at them
with fresh eyes every singletime I see them and to really
try and support them throughthose difficult moments and to
come back with a new perspectiveand a fresh start for them as
they re-enter my room or myspace.
That really builds theirconfidence and it really helps
(06:32):
them become resilient in theclassroom.
Jen (06:35):
And what sort of innovative teaching practices are you
applying in the classroom thesedays?
Lindsay (06:42):
One of the things that's interesting in education
that's happening right now issomething called the
de-streaming model.
Prior to this model, studentswere pulled out for extra
support and that system has alot of benefits.
And this might be acontroversial opinion or a hot
topic for a lot of teachers, butI like the idea of the
de-streaming and I love the ideaof de-streaming when it's done
(07:06):
well, because I really see thebenefits.
But it has to be done well andall teachers have to believe in
the model and they all have towork together to make the
de-streaming model work.
And as we navigate through thenew de-streaming, we're still
figuring it out, so it's a bitmessy and that's okay.
We should function in a bit ofmessiness while we figure it out
(07:28):
because that's where thelearning happens.
But ideally for me,de-streaming would be all of the
students are in the sameclassroom and there's teachers
that are supporting each otherand supporting the students.
So the benefit of de-streamingfor me that I see is a
confidence in the confidence inthe children, because they're
exposed to new learning, theirsocial circles often grow, they
are able to experience learningthat maybe they wouldn't
(07:52):
otherwise, because they're beingpulled out, just teach specific
things.
So for me, de-streaming is, whendone well and with support, is
a model that is reallybeneficial to students.
Why is this so controversial?
It's difficult, and I recognizehow difficult it is to do, and
I recognize that it's not clean,in the sense that we're still
(08:12):
trying to figure out whatsupport would look like in the
classroom.
And do we even have enoughsupport, like our teachers
supported well enough to runthis model and our students
supported well enough tofunction in this model?
So this isn't my own teachingstrategy necessarily, but it's
something that some of theboards are moving to that I
(08:33):
believe will be a good model.
Jen (08:36):
It's fascinating and I don't understand really the old
model or the new model.
Lindsay (08:40):
So I'll give you a personal example.
So I was a student with alearning disability, and when
you have a learning disability,it means that you have average
intelligence, or this is how Iwould explain it you have
average intelligence, but maybeyou just don't learn like
everybody else in the system.
So sometimes the curriculum ismore specific and tailored to
exactly what I need it as astudent.
And then the other, the class,the whole class might be moving
(09:03):
at a different pace.
So with de-streaming, it meansthat all of the students are in
the classroom all of the time,sort of being taught by the
homeroom teacher or specialeducation teacher like myself,
and that there's a flow in theclassroom where there's multiple
entry points for all of thestudents.
So instead of pulling me outfor math and language, I would
(09:25):
be in the classroom and therewould be an entry point that I
would be able to access thecurriculum.
And because the classroom isbeing taught to all of the
students, if I met myexpectations but I wanted to go
further and try other things inthe classroom, that would be
available to me because therewould be multiple entry points
(09:45):
for all of the students, and soonce I tried something, I could
try something a little bit moredifficult or try something new.
So the de-streaming model is,for me, exciting because
students are exposed to so muchand they have the ability to
learn from their peers.
They have the ability to trythings that maybe otherwise they
(10:08):
wouldn't be trying.
They're exposed to differenttypes of thinking.
I think a lot of learning comesfrom listening to your peers
and how they think and sharingyour thinking and working
through your thinking.
And oh, did that make sense, orwas there a more efficient way
to get there?
And the de-streaming model forme, if I look down hopefully
(10:31):
five, ten years it's thisbeautiful relationship between
the teacher supporting theclassroom, the students
supporting each other, lots oflearning going on that meets the
needs of all of the students inthe classroom and students
really sharing and collaboratingtogether.
Are we there yet?
No, is it messy at thebeginning?
(10:53):
Absolutely, but I think in thatmess will come some growth and
the growth will be reallybeneficial to a lot of students.
Jen (11:04):
Is this not how the world operates?
You have to understanddiversity of thinking, and so
being exposed to that early onas a child is such a preparation
for the future.
I want to talk a little bitabout kids and resilience and
the role that feedback plays intheir growth and development.
(11:26):
There's a podcast that AndrewHuberman shared recently, and he
talked about a study that wasdone, and the study's title is
called Praise for IntelligenceCan Undermine Motivation and
Performance, and it wasperformed by Dr Carol Dweck, and
they measured what do kids dowhen faced with a problem set,
(11:51):
and so the kids who receivedintelligence-based feedback when
presented with a problem thatthey knew they could perform
well on, or maybe an unknown orchallenging problem, they tended
to select problems that theyknew they could do well on.
The kids who receivedeffort-based feedback when
presented with problems thatwere difficult or hard, those
(12:16):
kids tend to choose hardproblems because they knew that
they could learn somethingthrough that, and so I thought
that was fascinating.
It's so cool.
So do you see this play out?
Lindsay (12:28):
in real life and let's talk about this.
Yeah, for me this is soexciting.
We want to see kids workinghard, we want to see kids giving
their best effort and we're sostuck sometimes on grades and
we're so stuck on like did I geta percentage on my test?
But really what I want to seeis growth.
I want to know that my studentsstarted somewhere and they made
progress.
And sometimes progress for kidslooks different and it's hard
(12:51):
to sometimes give a mark becausetheir effort was so amazing.
And where do I show them that?
In a mark?
But if I can give it to themthrough praise, through feedback
, that's the most exciting thingfor me as a teacher.
Marks are important in some ways.
I want to know that you aregrowing.
(13:11):
Yeah, I want to know that theeffort that you're putting into
your work is because your thefeedback has been around you
making a change or you growing,or you seeing the results of
your hard work.
Yeah, and those are the lifeskills that go far beyond the 80
(13:32):
that you got in grade six thatyou're never going to remember.
Jen (13:34):
Yeah, not only is it important for children, but the
study also suggested how youpraise yourself as an adult.
This way will significantlyyield improved performance.
So congratulating yourself onyour hard efforts versus your
results was another key takeawayfor adults in resilience.
Lindsay (13:54):
I agree with Carol Dhuak in the sense that I like
being praised for my effortversus the outcome.
It's not always easy becausethe fallback is, you know, for
my own children like, oh wow,you got a goal in hockey, but I
didn't praise all the time thatthey spent shooting pucks in the
garage, I didn't praise the theapplication of feedback that
(14:17):
they got from my husband aroundhow to make a shot, and that's
just a personal example, but Ijust praise the end result and I
want to remember to praise theactual journey to getting that
goal, or the actual journey togetting their desired outcome.
Jen (14:32):
The theme that I still want to continue to kind of weave
through here is the early day.
What people some people wouldcall trauma.
You know, I lost my fatheryoung.
You lost your father young.
I think when you live throughsome of those experiences, don't
necessarily fully see it astrauma, but gifts.
What is your perspective onthat?
Lindsay (14:54):
In those experiences of trauma, as hard as they are and
as difficult as they are, thereare these beautiful lessons or
these beautiful gifts thatsomebody has given you through
that trauma and I I want torecognize, like for me it's my
mom.
She, she, would carry this keychain and it said, just wing it.
(15:15):
And it was a source ofinspiration for me and also
sometimes a source of stress.
But from the gift that my momgave to me through the trauma
and watching her navigate, thetrauma was that, as a woman and
a person who's navigating theworld and trying to be resilient
(15:36):
, was that you know, have a plan.
It doesn't always goaccordingly.
So shift your thinking, youknow, persevere, try something
new, but stay the course.
And for me that's a gift that mymom gave me through watching
her experience some trauma as achild.
(15:57):
That is difficult and trauma isimpacts your whole life.
But I want to say, from thetrauma can also come some
beautiful gifts.
But you have to be willing toopen the gifts too Absolutely,
and it's hard, and you have tobe able to say how am I going to
flip my brain to see the giftsthat I got from it?
(16:19):
And it doesn't happenimmediately, it takes years, but
I think it's so necessary to beable to say not only was I hurt
, but I learned something and Igained some strength to be able
to recognize from the traumathat your resilience came from
gifts from somebody, something,somewhere, and for me it was my
(16:42):
mother watching that.
And for you, it was both.
Jen (16:45):
It was my father passed away when we were 16 and then 10
years later, my mother passedaway, and so there was a journey
through the 10 years once myfather passed away.
I would say I had a lot ofresistance towards my mother in
the beginning of that, but onceshe became ill I was on a fast
(17:08):
track to heal with her because Iknew I didn't have the time,
and so there was a lot of giftsin that too.
And I will say the gift for meis I was one of these people who
I didn't want to feel my griefcompletely.
I wanted to kind of musclethrough with my intelligence and
with my ambition, and the giftwas you have to feel it all.
(17:32):
And what I didn't know at thetime and I've since learned is
that the depths of my grief wereequal of how much I can love.
So I had so much grief, but Ithought there was something
wrong with me, like will this bethe thing that never ends?
And then someone, a great sortof therapist and healer, helped
(17:56):
me see that the depths of yourgrief is actually the degree to
which you love and care in thisworld.
And so do not judge your griefas something that is hindering
you.
And once I got that, there wasa couple of key lessons.
I mean it's still unfolding.
So this is the thing the giftsnever stop right.
Lindsay (18:13):
They don't stop and the healing never stops and
sometimes we think healingdoesn't mean we don't feel
sadness.
Healing doesn't mean we don'thave sorrow.
Healing doesn't mean we're nowokay with it.
Healing means I'm making someprogress, I'm holding space for
this and I'm okay to hold spacefor it.
I still getting ready for thispodcast, chatting with my mom.
(18:35):
I still cried about the deathof my father 37 years ago.
I still cry for maybe theexperiences I didn't have.
I don't think healing means wejust move on.
I think healing means we'velearned to hold space and we
think sometimes healing is so wejust go up.
(18:57):
But healing is also messy andhealing for me is just holding
space for the event.
That's me too, and that's oneof the things I've learned
through teaching and trying tobuild resilience and through my
childhood is that operating inmessy is okay, operating and not
being perfect is normal andokay.
(19:19):
And sitting again, we go backto sort of sitting in that
discomfort, sitting in themessiness, sitting in the
imperfection of whatever it isin my surroundings and saying
this is okay, I'm going to behere right now and this is okay.
And in this messiness and inthis imperfection and in this
(19:39):
time of discomfort will come anenormous amount of growth, but
in time I will know why.
It was messy, imperfect anduncomfortable.
Jen (19:53):
And it's hard and I think you have just completed the
podcast on a perfect note, andmay we all sit in our own
discomfort and messiness andapply that wisdom beautifully.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you, and beyond words,for being so honest and open and
vulnerable and sharing yourstory and the future, for
(20:18):
teaching and how we can thinkabout building a growth mindset
that fosters resilience in ourchildren, and so thank you for
being here.
That was great.
Thank you, thank you forjoining us.
Don't forget to follow us onInstagram and LinkedIn, where we
transform the wisdom from ourpodcast into practical tips,
tools and takeaways for yourleadership journey.
Find us at grit.
(20:39):
grace.
podcast.
See you next week.
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