April 1, 2024 • 21 mins
In this revealing episode, join us as we navigate the rollercoaster of leadership with Gail Banack, a seasoned retail executive with 19+ years in retail. As SVP of Merchandising at Indigo, she transformed Indigo's Kids and Baby sectors to unparalleled success in North America. From the unprecedented growth in the toy industry spurred by the pandemic to the depths of navigating a major data breach, Gail shares her unfiltered journey through the extremes of corporate leadership.
This episode is more than just a story of personal triumph; it's a roadmap for current and aspiring leaders facing the complexities of guiding teams through both explosive growth and daunting slumps. Gail opens up about the essential skills every leader needs to master, from crisis management to fostering team connection and trust. She discusses the common pitfalls that both first-time managers and seasoned veterans can fall into, and how to navigate them with grace and strategic foresight.
Whether you're a first-time manager learning the ropes or a seasoned leader seeking fresh insights, this episode offers valuable perspectives on adapting, inspiring, and leading effectively in today's ever-evolving landscape
Follow Gail on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gailbanack/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jen (00:00):
Today's conversation features Gail Bannock, a
trailblazer with over 19 yearsin retail who, as Senior Vice
President of Merchandising atIndigo, transformed Indigo, kids
and baby sectors tounparalleled success in North
America.
Gail (00:15):
So lucky for me, we had a great high, followed by a super
low low, which was fascinatingto see all in one go.
So again at Indigo you know, in2023, we experienced this
breach and that was the lowestlow.
Jen (00:34):
In this episode we discuss leading through both explosive
growth and daunting slumps.
Gail shares her unfilteredjourney, offering up honest
learnings, and we delve into thecommon pitfalls that hit
first-time managers and seasonedleaders alike.
Let's dive in.
Welcome to the podcast.
(00:54):
Everyone we are in studio withGail and today we're going to
dive into all things peopleteam-related.
You have a wealth of knowledgeand background as it relates to
retail experience and risingthrough the ranks at several
different organizations.
Before we dive into any of that, I'm curious to kind of get a
little bit of your backstory.
(01:15):
So, if you think back to somepivotal lessons and moments
along your journey, what hasreally been some shaping and
defining moments?
Gail (01:23):
I think the first time you become a manager is definitely
pivotal, and I even believe thatit's not the first time you
become a manager of one person.
It's actually when you get atleast two people, because now
you can talk about your team.
I found, at least myself, I leddifferently the moment I had
two or more people, and that'swhen you can start thinking on
(01:45):
behalf of other people on behalfof in my case it was a
department and really kind ofyou just change the way that you
think as a leader.
The second one I would say wasagain when I got a large team.
When you are leading people,who are leading people, that
again is a huge shift, becausenow it's not just about what you
(02:07):
do, but how do you help peoplebe leaders, which I found a
completely different skill set.
Jen (02:12):
When you have tenure in your role, you see it all.
You see explosive growthmoments, you see headwinds, you
see when times aren't so good incompanies and you really have
to learn how to lead peoplethrough a number of different
scenarios.
So let's just take the highs.
You know as a leader, peoplealways think those are the great
(02:33):
times.
They're not always that easy.
What kind of lessons can welearn about what's important to
lead people through explosivegrowth moments within an
organization?
Gail (02:42):
Well, I mean, the first one that comes to mind for me
was leading through COVID, whichyou know was very different for
all of us and but for me,working at Indigo, leading a
team running a toy department,nothing was better for toys than
COVID catapulted the business.
People, you know parents, arebeside themselves trying to
entertain their kids withpuzzles and Lego and books,
(03:06):
anything that they can get theirhands on.
And so the business really wentthrough a huge growth period.
You know how do you kind ofkeep people engaged and working
as hard as you need them to,because of this growth that
nobody saw coming, that came outof nowhere, while they're also
going through these personalissues.
(03:30):
And after a couple of weeks ofworking from home, I asked
everybody to turn on theircameras and we conducted all of
our meetings, days long meetings, on camera.
And I can tell you after thefact, I had almost every single
one of the people on my teamcome to me and thank me for
enforcing that rule and sayingthat they were alone, they were
lonely, they were exhausted andthey were, you know, disengaged
(03:53):
and they still had to work, butthat having to turn on the
camera was really huge courageas a leader at the time to kind
of take control of the situationand say my team needs this, I
need this, and we'll be betterfor it when you're going through
highs and lows on a teamconnection and trust is like the
(04:16):
mainframe.
Jen (04:17):
It's very easy to look at the results that you have to
achieve, whether it's thenumbers, the deliverables, the
revenue, but budgeting in apractice, as a leader, to be
always thinking what does myteam need this week, whether
it's connection, communityconversation, mentorship,
support.
So when you think about thelows, though, like what are the
(04:41):
principles?
Gail (04:42):
So, lucky for me, we had a great high followed by a super
low low, which was fascinatingto see all in one go.
So again at Indigo you know, in2023, we experienced this
breach and that was the lowestlow.
I mean, obviously it wasdetrimental to the business
(05:03):
because the site went down andthe business well, even the
stores went down.
At first, you know, we were thelast system to kind of come
back, because there were otherpriorities in terms of making
sure that we could sell product,that we could ship product,
that we could have visibilityinto the distribution centers.
So we were kind of sittingducks for a while.
(05:24):
But then, shortly after that,there was a personal attack on
us because our personalinformation was leaked, and so
first I had to tell my team thatthere was a breach.
Nobody knew what that meant.
The first thing that wasfascinating to me was to see how
everybody reacted verydifferently, including myself.
(05:47):
So I have, through my own lifeexperience, have a habit of
working very well through timesof extreme pressure, and my
coping mechanism is not to panic, and I basically I get through
it and I allow myself.
You can't panic in a realemergency.
You have to actually pullyourself together and work
(06:09):
through it, and panicking is aluxury that you can have once
the emergency is over, and so I,as a leader, I approached it in
the same way as I do the restof my life Not necessarily
healthy, by the way but Ibasically managed very calmly.
And that was not right foreverybody.
My degree of calmness was notwhat everybody needed and I had
(06:34):
to adjust along the way becauseof the feedback that I was
getting from some people on myteam that my extreme level of
calm, I would probably say,didn't match their level of
panic.
Jen (06:47):
So they were interpreting it as sort of like you're not
taking this seriously.
Gail (06:51):
They absolutely thought I wasn't taking it seriously, and
also I have a very jokingpersonality, and that didn't go
over very well, and I learned avery hard lesson there to be
sensitive to everybody'semotions.
There was one moment inparticular where I had addressed
the team.
I did not go well and I thenwas faced with a decision
(07:13):
whether to apologize or not, andafter thinking about it, I
ultimately decided to apologize,which, as a leader, was a very
hard decision to make.
You know, do I apologize for myleadership style?
Do I apologize for my approach?
Do I apologize for who I am?
(07:33):
Yeah, it didn't go well either,and that was also a lesson for
me, because the apology wasn'tenough, like why didn't it go?
Jen (07:42):
well, they were just upset.
Gail (07:44):
They were just upset.
It wasn't about me, buteverybody was reacting very
differently and so there wasreally I didn't even know how to
behave, but what I?
The reason I'm happy with thedecision to apologize was
because that was true to me as aperson and I feel like as a
leader, that is the mostimportant rule to lead with
(08:07):
heart and to lead like you, likelike you're a person, and these
were people that I genuinelyliked, that I genuinely, um, had
you know hope the best for, andI had felt like I disappointed
them or I had let them down.
And again, with time passing,having talked to my team after
that, they all kind of, wheneverybody calmed down and the
(08:27):
pressure cooker kind of calmeddown, they were able to say we
understand now that you were, Ihad never been through a breach,
I didn't know what I was doingand with time, they kind of
understood that as well.
Jen (08:40):
So just that level of vulnerability and authenticity
and not having to be stoic inthat moment.
How important was it to beauthentic, plus informative,
with every detail you had alongthe way.
Gail (08:54):
As a leader, you're expected to have answers or
you're expected to say I'm notsure.
Let me get back to you.
There's nobody to ask, nobodyknows.
I can't even say that.
I just have to say I don't knowand leave it at that, which is
very uncomfortable.
People wanted answers, they hadexpectations on how Indigo
should have, you know, actionedthe breach.
(09:17):
I think, all in all, I thinkIndigo did a great job and I
think they were all.
I think Indigo did a great joband I think they were doing
trying to do the best.
Jen (09:23):
Well, you do a lot of mentoring now, so hindsight is
always 20, 20.
But you know what would be thetakeaways that you would impart
on a mentee today?
Gail (09:40):
I think, just in general, providing your, your leader,
with compassion is good andremembering that there are
people that hopefully they'retrying to do the best by you and
if you're coaching or advisinga leader.
Jen (09:47):
What would you advise them?
Just care.
Gail (09:49):
Just care for your people.
I feel like you can't go wrongwith that.
If you care for your people,then you're going to be
compassionate, you're going tobe vulnerable, you're going to
be authentic, you're going togive them what they need.
And and then the second thingis I would impart on them how
different people are and how you.
(10:11):
You need to pay attention toone individual on your team who
may be reacting one way versussomebody else who react was
reacting a different way.
I mean even just by age.
I noticed people in our companyyou know very you know older
people were scared because theydidn't understand what was
(10:34):
happening.
Kind of middle-aged people werekind of the most easygoing
because they probably had afraud alert before and they know
that nothing happened, and sothey were a little bit calm,
kind of like how I wasapproaching it.
And then very young people werepetrified because they're like,
what if I can't get a house?
What if I?
You know, what does this meanfor my credit and and so, and
(10:57):
even within ages, obviously,people react differently
depending on their personalcircumstances and it's just a
very personal thing, somethingthat you wouldn't think, I
didn't appreciate at the time.
Jen (11:07):
How personal this was the thing I'm learning from what you
said, too, is just to notassume people are going to
handle it like you.
Uh, people feel the way you doand then even within that
dynamic.
So once you make thoseassumptions, it's like you have
a composition of communicationand a way to manage people that
has to be different.
It's when you have to managepeople who aren't like you that
(11:32):
you grow the most as a peopleleader.
Gail (11:34):
Oh my God, I couldn't agree more.
Probably one of the biggestmistakes that I made as a young
manager was trying to make mypeople me, yes, thinking that I
not that I was so great, butthat's the only thing that I
knew how to do.
I knew how to make thispresentation my way, this
pressure to just turn everybodyinto I'm an extrovert, so you
(11:54):
need to be more extroverted andlearning and this is a huge
lesson that I've learned aroundjust helping people be the best
they can be, not me.
Jen (12:07):
How did you learn how to do that, though?
Did you lean on resources, orwas it just like a light bulb?
You're like, oh, I see it now,like I have to tap into more of
their strength, theircommunication style, their way.
Gail (12:20):
I think it actually had to do with my own confidence as a
leader, okay.
And I think when I kind ofbacked off to say, okay, I don't
need to prove myself anymore,I'm good, I believe in myself
and how I lead and you areinteresting and good and smart
and powerful in your way, and Ijust kind of observed them to
(12:43):
see that their way of doing itwas actually got from A to B.
It just didn't take the samepath.
Jen (12:49):
When's the moment we felt comfortable in our own skin to
give someone else the space tobe themselves?
Gail (12:54):
Yeah.
Jen (12:55):
Right, that's like that's the switch.
Yeah, it's like I let go of thecontrol because I trusted
myself.
Gail (13:01):
It completely changed the way that I lead to understand.
Okay, so what are youstruggling with?
How do I help you presentyourself better?
How do I help you advance?
How do I help in the way thatis going to work for you,
Because trying to do it my wayis not going to work.
Jen (13:18):
When we allow ourselves to be authentic and we see
ourselves in our ownauthenticity, we can then see
other people.
A hundred percent Leadingleaders.
Let's talk about that dynamic.
What were some of the earlylessons in that journey for you?
So?
Gail (13:32):
I think when you're leading leaders, you need to
step up your communication to awhole other level.
That's what I found, where youknow it's one thing to find
yourself in a conversation withsomeone and find yourself in a
situation and then react and dowhatever you do and say whatever
you say.
It's another to talk tosomebody completely out of
context and predict aconversation or predict a
(13:57):
problem.
So now I have to think abouthow are you as a leader?
How can you be better as aleader?
What is a scenario that you'regoing to struggle with or, you
know, have to deal with?
And then how can I tell you howto think, how to, what to say,
how to approach it, what to try?
And then not only that, but Ithen also have to equip you with
(14:20):
multiple responses to multipleresponses from the other person
In that role you A.
Jen (14:27):
Your level of foresight down the road strategically has
to be a lot sharper than in theprevious roles.
Then B, you almost have tocreate frameworks to help people
make decisions yeah, right.
And then you have to anticipatewhere their gaps make decisions
yeah Right.
And then you have to anticipatewhere their gaps will be yeah,
it's like coaching on a scenariobase.
(14:48):
Yes, when you moved into thatVP role, like, where did you see
your growth?
So if you were to kind of justdefine your growth through that
chapter.
Gail (14:59):
Where did you grow the most.
When I accepted the role of VPat Indigo, I was petrified
because I had never been amerchant and I was about to lead
a team of merchants.
And what I what I love aboutthat role was that it was kind
of the first job I had where, asa leader, where I didn't know
(15:19):
how to do their job, yeah, andso that inherently created a
different dynamic, which I lovebecause it allowed me to be the
manager that I want to be and Iwasn't busy training people and
I wasn't, you know, up untilthen, every job I'd had.
I knew how to do every singlejob there.
I could do it better thananybody, I could do it faster
(15:40):
than anybody, and so this was Ihad no choice but to be a very
trusting, hands-off, you know,collaborative leader, which I
love.
As a VP, I was able to justfocus on the people and my job
(16:00):
was to develop the team, removeroadblocks so that was dealing
with my fellow VPs and the other, the rest of the company and
remove roadblocks so that theycould do their job, but it
didn't include actually trainingthem on how to do their job.
Jen (16:15):
So, first and foremost, the minute you come out of I'm not
the functional expert I haveseen so many women struggle with
that.
Well, where's my value lie?
Because I used to be the doer,I used to be the solver, and
making that shift into that rolethrough that period, you're
(16:36):
like where's my value?
Gail (16:39):
Did you have that experience A hundred percent?
When I came in, I hadincredible imposter syndrome,
like who am I to come in hereand tell these people what to do
, because I don't know the firstthing about buying.
Jen (16:51):
It's very strange to come into a role where you're not
sure what you're supposed to do,but now your job is like you're
a force multiplier.
So how can you make 10 peoplemore powerful in their roles
because of the?
You know, the people who reportto them and the great resources
that they have at theirdisposal and innovations that
(17:11):
they can unlock, and so?
Gail (17:14):
but the reason.
Jen (17:14):
I ask that is?
It's just.
It's a huge leap for people andwhen we're identified as being,
you know, great IC or greatdeep in expertise, yeah, I know
that's a hard one for folks.
I completely agree.
Yeah, what do you do foryourself to manage to a level of
when the stakes are high, youcan still remain clear?
Gail (17:38):
I mean, I have a very full life.
I'm in a loving relationship.
My husband is amazing.
I have three kids and they takeup a lot of my time.
I have certain hobbies that Ilike to do that are strange and
quirky, but they give me peace.
What are they?
Well, I love making photo booksfor my family.
(18:01):
Oh, okay, and I laugh becauseit's basically I'm basically
doing PowerPoint for fun, but Ijust love it.
It's very much a creativeoutlet for me and I spend hours
doing it and then I havesomething to show for it, which
I love, and I feel like I'mpassing on something to my kids
that they'll remember forever,and we reference these books all
the time to see what happened,when and how somebody looked and
(18:23):
what they did, and so it, like,is a gift that keeps giving
what you're talking about isvery important.
Jen (18:29):
I think about women who are in high pressure roles, who
have to think all day long andbe very strategic with their
minds.
They have to like.
Gail (18:38):
How do we tap into reflection and creativity in a
different way of generatingself-generating energy unless
we're doing things like this,Now that you're saying that, it
must give me energy and I knowit brings me joy and I know it
relaxes me, especially me.
I'm an overthinker.
I think all the time.
There's something going on inmy head all the time, and so
having that time to just thinkis this the right pink and
(19:02):
should that butterfly be there?
Jen (19:03):
And you know.
So where's your next version ofgrowth?
Like if you think about hey,I've you know.
Look back in your tenure, lookat who you've evolved into.
Um, you look out in terms ofyour own personal growth or
skill growth, like what excitesyou.
Gail (19:20):
Because I don't know what's going to happen next.
I think the first step is goingto be this what I was saying to
you, like this time of yes forme, I'm just saying I'm saying
yes to this.
I love talking to you, I amsaying yes to a bunch of other
(19:42):
opportunities and just beingopen, letting the universe speak
to me of what's next, and Ihope that whatever is next, I
know it will be, I know I willgrow through it because I won't
do it otherwise.
I don't want to do the samething.
I very rarely have done thesame thing and I enjoy that, and
I enjoy that being a little bituncomfortable about what I'm
doing, and so I don't know, butI'm excited for it, yeah.
Jen (20:00):
Yeah, the nebulous new.
It brings butterflies again.
It brings a little bit ofnerves in a good way, yeah,
feels like you're, for me itfeels, like I'm expanding into
something new that doesn't feelcomfortable.
Gail (20:15):
But I haven't.
Jen (20:16):
you know I don't have the playbook from you know 10 years
to draw on, but I'm excited forthat chapter of growth.
Gail (20:23):
I am too.
I was talking to somebody theother day and I was saying that,
in my experience, youabsolutely take.
You don't even know when you'regrowing.
You don't even know when you'regrowing, you don't even know
when you're learning, and it'snot until the next job, or even
the next next job, that yourealize oh, that's what that was
(20:43):
about.
That was.
That was good that I did that,and so I feel like, even though,
to your point, even though Idon't know what's next, I know
that I will take the learningsthat I've had and apply them
somehow, in some way, to thenext thing.
Jen (20:57):
Well, we've learned so much from your incredible arc and
your career, and your personalwisdom too.
Gail (21:03):
Thank you so much.
This was so fun.
Jen (21:06):
Thank you for joining us.
Don't forget to follow us onInstagram and LinkedIn, where we
transform the wisdom from ourpodcast into practical tips,
tools and takeaways for yourleadership journey.
Find us at gritgracepodcast.
See you next week.
Today's conversation features Gail Bannock, a
trailblazer with over 19 yearsin retail who, as Senior Vice
President of Merchandising atIndigo, transformed Indigo, kids
and baby sectors tounparalleled success in North
America.
Gail (00:15):
So lucky for me, we had a great high, followed by a super
low low, which was fascinatingto see all in one go.
So again at Indigo you know, in2023, we experienced this
breach and that was the lowestlow.
Jen (00:34):
In this episode we discuss leading through both explosive
growth and daunting slumps.
Gail shares her unfilteredjourney, offering up honest
learnings, and we delve into thecommon pitfalls that hit
first-time managers and seasonedleaders alike.
Let's dive in.
Welcome to the podcast.
(00:54):
Everyone we are in studio withGail and today we're going to
dive into all things peopleteam-related.
You have a wealth of knowledgeand background as it relates to
retail experience and risingthrough the ranks at several
different organizations.
Before we dive into any of that, I'm curious to kind of get a
little bit of your backstory.
(01:15):
So, if you think back to somepivotal lessons and moments
along your journey, what hasreally been some shaping and
defining moments?
Gail (01:23):
I think the first time you become a manager is definitely
pivotal, and I even believe thatit's not the first time you
become a manager of one person.
It's actually when you get atleast two people, because now
you can talk about your team.
I found, at least myself, I leddifferently the moment I had
two or more people, and that'swhen you can start thinking on
(01:45):
behalf of other people on behalfof in my case it was a
department and really kind ofyou just change the way that you
think as a leader.
The second one I would say wasagain when I got a large team.
When you are leading people,who are leading people, that
again is a huge shift, becausenow it's not just about what you
(02:07):
do, but how do you help peoplebe leaders, which I found a
completely different skill set.
Jen (02:12):
When you have tenure in your role, you see it all.
You see explosive growthmoments, you see headwinds, you
see when times aren't so good incompanies and you really have
to learn how to lead peoplethrough a number of different
scenarios.
So let's just take the highs.
You know as a leader, peoplealways think those are the great
(02:33):
times.
They're not always that easy.
What kind of lessons can welearn about what's important to
lead people through explosivegrowth moments within an
organization?
Gail (02:42):
Well, I mean, the first one that comes to mind for me
was leading through COVID, whichyou know was very different for
all of us and but for me,working at Indigo, leading a
team running a toy department,nothing was better for toys than
COVID catapulted the business.
People, you know parents, arebeside themselves trying to
entertain their kids withpuzzles and Lego and books,
(03:06):
anything that they can get theirhands on.
And so the business really wentthrough a huge growth period.
You know how do you kind ofkeep people engaged and working
as hard as you need them to,because of this growth that
nobody saw coming, that came outof nowhere, while they're also
going through these personalissues.
(03:30):
And after a couple of weeks ofworking from home, I asked
everybody to turn on theircameras and we conducted all of
our meetings, days long meetings, on camera.
And I can tell you after thefact, I had almost every single
one of the people on my teamcome to me and thank me for
enforcing that rule and sayingthat they were alone, they were
lonely, they were exhausted andthey were, you know, disengaged
(03:53):
and they still had to work, butthat having to turn on the
camera was really huge courageas a leader at the time to kind
of take control of the situationand say my team needs this, I
need this, and we'll be betterfor it when you're going through
highs and lows on a teamconnection and trust is like the
(04:16):
mainframe.
Jen (04:17):
It's very easy to look at the results that you have to
achieve, whether it's thenumbers, the deliverables, the
revenue, but budgeting in apractice, as a leader, to be
always thinking what does myteam need this week, whether
it's connection, communityconversation, mentorship,
support.
So when you think about thelows, though, like what are the
(04:41):
principles?
Gail (04:42):
So, lucky for me, we had a great high followed by a super
low low, which was fascinatingto see all in one go.
So again at Indigo you know, in2023, we experienced this
breach and that was the lowestlow.
I mean, obviously it wasdetrimental to the business
(05:03):
because the site went down andthe business well, even the
stores went down.
At first, you know, we were thelast system to kind of come
back, because there were otherpriorities in terms of making
sure that we could sell product,that we could ship product,
that we could have visibilityinto the distribution centers.
So we were kind of sittingducks for a while.
(05:24):
But then, shortly after that,there was a personal attack on
us because our personalinformation was leaked, and so
first I had to tell my team thatthere was a breach.
Nobody knew what that meant.
The first thing that wasfascinating to me was to see how
everybody reacted verydifferently, including myself.
(05:47):
So I have, through my own lifeexperience, have a habit of
working very well through timesof extreme pressure, and my
coping mechanism is not to panic, and I basically I get through
it and I allow myself.
You can't panic in a realemergency.
You have to actually pullyourself together and work
(06:09):
through it, and panicking is aluxury that you can have once
the emergency is over, and so I,as a leader, I approached it in
the same way as I do the restof my life Not necessarily
healthy, by the way but Ibasically managed very calmly.
And that was not right foreverybody.
My degree of calmness was notwhat everybody needed and I had
(06:34):
to adjust along the way becauseof the feedback that I was
getting from some people on myteam that my extreme level of
calm, I would probably say,didn't match their level of
panic.
Jen (06:47):
So they were interpreting it as sort of like you're not
taking this seriously.
Gail (06:51):
They absolutely thought I wasn't taking it seriously, and
also I have a very jokingpersonality, and that didn't go
over very well, and I learned avery hard lesson there to be
sensitive to everybody'semotions.
There was one moment inparticular where I had addressed
the team.
I did not go well and I thenwas faced with a decision
(07:13):
whether to apologize or not, andafter thinking about it, I
ultimately decided to apologize,which, as a leader, was a very
hard decision to make.
You know, do I apologize for myleadership style?
Do I apologize for my approach?
Do I apologize for who I am?
(07:33):
Yeah, it didn't go well either,and that was also a lesson for
me, because the apology wasn'tenough, like why didn't it go?
Jen (07:42):
well, they were just upset.
Gail (07:44):
They were just upset.
It wasn't about me, buteverybody was reacting very
differently and so there wasreally I didn't even know how to
behave, but what I?
The reason I'm happy with thedecision to apologize was
because that was true to me as aperson and I feel like as a
leader, that is the mostimportant rule to lead with
(08:07):
heart and to lead like you, likelike you're a person, and these
were people that I genuinelyliked, that I genuinely, um, had
you know hope the best for, andI had felt like I disappointed
them or I had let them down.
And again, with time passing,having talked to my team after
that, they all kind of, wheneverybody calmed down and the
(08:27):
pressure cooker kind of calmeddown, they were able to say we
understand now that you were, Ihad never been through a breach,
I didn't know what I was doingand with time, they kind of
understood that as well.
Jen (08:40):
So just that level of vulnerability and authenticity
and not having to be stoic inthat moment.
How important was it to beauthentic, plus informative,
with every detail you had alongthe way.
Gail (08:54):
As a leader, you're expected to have answers or
you're expected to say I'm notsure.
Let me get back to you.
There's nobody to ask, nobodyknows.
I can't even say that.
I just have to say I don't knowand leave it at that, which is
very uncomfortable.
People wanted answers, they hadexpectations on how Indigo
should have, you know, actionedthe breach.
(09:17):
I think, all in all, I thinkIndigo did a great job and I
think they were all.
I think Indigo did a great joband I think they were doing
trying to do the best.
Jen (09:23):
Well, you do a lot of mentoring now, so hindsight is
always 20, 20.
But you know what would be thetakeaways that you would impart
on a mentee today?
Gail (09:40):
I think, just in general, providing your, your leader,
with compassion is good andremembering that there are
people that hopefully they'retrying to do the best by you and
if you're coaching or advisinga leader.
Jen (09:47):
What would you advise them?
Just care.
Gail (09:49):
Just care for your people.
I feel like you can't go wrongwith that.
If you care for your people,then you're going to be
compassionate, you're going tobe vulnerable, you're going to
be authentic, you're going togive them what they need.
And and then the second thingis I would impart on them how
different people are and how you.
(10:11):
You need to pay attention toone individual on your team who
may be reacting one way versussomebody else who react was
reacting a different way.
I mean even just by age.
I noticed people in our companyyou know very you know older
people were scared because theydidn't understand what was
(10:34):
happening.
Kind of middle-aged people werekind of the most easygoing
because they probably had afraud alert before and they know
that nothing happened, and sothey were a little bit calm,
kind of like how I wasapproaching it.
And then very young people werepetrified because they're like,
what if I can't get a house?
What if I?
You know, what does this meanfor my credit and and so, and
(10:57):
even within ages, obviously,people react differently
depending on their personalcircumstances and it's just a
very personal thing, somethingthat you wouldn't think, I
didn't appreciate at the time.
Jen (11:07):
How personal this was the thing I'm learning from what you
said, too, is just to notassume people are going to
handle it like you.
Uh, people feel the way you doand then even within that
dynamic.
So once you make thoseassumptions, it's like you have
a composition of communicationand a way to manage people that
has to be different.
It's when you have to managepeople who aren't like you that
(11:32):
you grow the most as a peopleleader.
Gail (11:34):
Oh my God, I couldn't agree more.
Probably one of the biggestmistakes that I made as a young
manager was trying to make mypeople me, yes, thinking that I
not that I was so great, butthat's the only thing that I
knew how to do.
I knew how to make thispresentation my way, this
pressure to just turn everybodyinto I'm an extrovert, so you
(11:54):
need to be more extroverted andlearning and this is a huge
lesson that I've learned aroundjust helping people be the best
they can be, not me.
Jen (12:07):
How did you learn how to do that, though?
Did you lean on resources, orwas it just like a light bulb?
You're like, oh, I see it now,like I have to tap into more of
their strength, theircommunication style, their way.
Gail (12:20):
I think it actually had to do with my own confidence as a
leader, okay.
And I think when I kind ofbacked off to say, okay, I don't
need to prove myself anymore,I'm good, I believe in myself
and how I lead and you areinteresting and good and smart
and powerful in your way, and Ijust kind of observed them to
(12:43):
see that their way of doing itwas actually got from A to B.
It just didn't take the samepath.
Jen (12:49):
When's the moment we felt comfortable in our own skin to
give someone else the space tobe themselves?
Gail (12:54):
Yeah.
Jen (12:55):
Right, that's like that's the switch.
Yeah, it's like I let go of thecontrol because I trusted
myself.
Gail (13:01):
It completely changed the way that I lead to understand.
Okay, so what are youstruggling with?
How do I help you presentyourself better?
How do I help you advance?
How do I help in the way thatis going to work for you,
Because trying to do it my wayis not going to work.
Jen (13:18):
When we allow ourselves to be authentic and we see
ourselves in our ownauthenticity, we can then see
other people.
A hundred percent Leadingleaders.
Let's talk about that dynamic.
What were some of the earlylessons in that journey for you?
So?
Gail (13:32):
I think when you're leading leaders, you need to
step up your communication to awhole other level.
That's what I found, where youknow it's one thing to find
yourself in a conversation withsomeone and find yourself in a
situation and then react and dowhatever you do and say whatever
you say.
It's another to talk tosomebody completely out of
context and predict aconversation or predict a
(13:57):
problem.
So now I have to think abouthow are you as a leader?
How can you be better as aleader?
What is a scenario that you'regoing to struggle with or, you
know, have to deal with?
And then how can I tell you howto think, how to, what to say,
how to approach it, what to try?
And then not only that, but Ithen also have to equip you with
(14:20):
multiple responses to multipleresponses from the other person
In that role you A.
Jen (14:27):
Your level of foresight down the road strategically has
to be a lot sharper than in theprevious roles.
Then B, you almost have tocreate frameworks to help people
make decisions yeah, right.
And then you have to anticipatewhere their gaps make decisions
yeah Right.
And then you have to anticipatewhere their gaps will be yeah,
it's like coaching on a scenariobase.
(14:48):
Yes, when you moved into thatVP role, like, where did you see
your growth?
So if you were to kind of justdefine your growth through that
chapter.
Gail (14:59):
Where did you grow the most.
When I accepted the role of VPat Indigo, I was petrified
because I had never been amerchant and I was about to lead
a team of merchants.
And what I what I love aboutthat role was that it was kind
of the first job I had where, asa leader, where I didn't know
(15:19):
how to do their job, yeah, andso that inherently created a
different dynamic, which I lovebecause it allowed me to be the
manager that I want to be and Iwasn't busy training people and
I wasn't, you know, up untilthen, every job I'd had.
I knew how to do every singlejob there.
I could do it better thananybody, I could do it faster
(15:40):
than anybody, and so this was Ihad no choice but to be a very
trusting, hands-off, you know,collaborative leader, which I
love.
As a VP, I was able to justfocus on the people and my job
(16:00):
was to develop the team, removeroadblocks so that was dealing
with my fellow VPs and the other, the rest of the company and
remove roadblocks so that theycould do their job, but it
didn't include actually trainingthem on how to do their job.
Jen (16:15):
So, first and foremost, the minute you come out of I'm not
the functional expert I haveseen so many women struggle with
that.
Well, where's my value lie?
Because I used to be the doer,I used to be the solver, and
making that shift into that rolethrough that period, you're
(16:36):
like where's my value?
Gail (16:39):
Did you have that experience A hundred percent?
When I came in, I hadincredible imposter syndrome,
like who am I to come in hereand tell these people what to do
, because I don't know the firstthing about buying.
Jen (16:51):
It's very strange to come into a role where you're not
sure what you're supposed to do,but now your job is like you're
a force multiplier.
So how can you make 10 peoplemore powerful in their roles
because of the?
You know, the people who reportto them and the great resources
that they have at theirdisposal and innovations that
(17:11):
they can unlock, and so?
Gail (17:14):
but the reason.
Jen (17:14):
I ask that is?
It's just.
It's a huge leap for people andwhen we're identified as being,
you know, great IC or greatdeep in expertise, yeah, I know
that's a hard one for folks.
I completely agree.
Yeah, what do you do foryourself to manage to a level of
when the stakes are high, youcan still remain clear?
Gail (17:38):
I mean, I have a very full life.
I'm in a loving relationship.
My husband is amazing.
I have three kids and they takeup a lot of my time.
I have certain hobbies that Ilike to do that are strange and
quirky, but they give me peace.
What are they?
Well, I love making photo booksfor my family.
(18:01):
Oh, okay, and I laugh becauseit's basically I'm basically
doing PowerPoint for fun, but Ijust love it.
It's very much a creativeoutlet for me and I spend hours
doing it and then I havesomething to show for it, which
I love, and I feel like I'mpassing on something to my kids
that they'll remember forever,and we reference these books all
the time to see what happened,when and how somebody looked and
(18:23):
what they did, and so it, like,is a gift that keeps giving
what you're talking about isvery important.
Jen (18:29):
I think about women who are in high pressure roles, who
have to think all day long andbe very strategic with their
minds.
They have to like.
Gail (18:38):
How do we tap into reflection and creativity in a
different way of generatingself-generating energy unless
we're doing things like this,Now that you're saying that, it
must give me energy and I knowit brings me joy and I know it
relaxes me, especially me.
I'm an overthinker.
I think all the time.
There's something going on inmy head all the time, and so
having that time to just thinkis this the right pink and
(19:02):
should that butterfly be there?
Jen (19:03):
And you know.
So where's your next version ofgrowth?
Like if you think about hey,I've you know.
Look back in your tenure, lookat who you've evolved into.
Um, you look out in terms ofyour own personal growth or
skill growth, like what excitesyou.
Gail (19:20):
Because I don't know what's going to happen next.
I think the first step is goingto be this what I was saying to
you, like this time of yes forme, I'm just saying I'm saying
yes to this.
I love talking to you, I amsaying yes to a bunch of other
(19:42):
opportunities and just beingopen, letting the universe speak
to me of what's next, and Ihope that whatever is next, I
know it will be, I know I willgrow through it because I won't
do it otherwise.
I don't want to do the samething.
I very rarely have done thesame thing and I enjoy that, and
I enjoy that being a little bituncomfortable about what I'm
doing, and so I don't know, butI'm excited for it, yeah.
Jen (20:00):
Yeah, the nebulous new.
It brings butterflies again.
It brings a little bit ofnerves in a good way, yeah,
feels like you're, for me itfeels, like I'm expanding into
something new that doesn't feelcomfortable.
Gail (20:15):
But I haven't.
Jen (20:16):
you know I don't have the playbook from you know 10 years
to draw on, but I'm excited forthat chapter of growth.
Gail (20:23):
I am too.
I was talking to somebody theother day and I was saying that,
in my experience, youabsolutely take.
You don't even know when you'regrowing.
You don't even know when you'regrowing, you don't even know
when you're learning, and it'snot until the next job, or even
the next next job, that yourealize oh, that's what that was
(20:43):
about.
That was.
That was good that I did that,and so I feel like, even though,
to your point, even though Idon't know what's next, I know
that I will take the learningsthat I've had and apply them
somehow, in some way, to thenext thing.
Jen (20:57):
Well, we've learned so much from your incredible arc and
your career, and your personalwisdom too.
Gail (21:03):
Thank you so much.
This was so fun.
Jen (21:06):
Thank you for joining us.
Don't forget to follow us onInstagram and LinkedIn, where we
transform the wisdom from ourpodcast into practical tips,
tools and takeaways for yourleadership journey.
Find us at gritgracepodcast.
See you next week.
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