October 30, 2024 • 36 mins
In this episode we speak with Chris Hatfield, Founder of Sales Psyche and author of The Subconscious Sale. Chris delves into the power of mindset, the impact of self-talk, and the importance of creating a supportive environment. With over 15 years of experience, Chris shares actionable insights on managing stress, building healthy habits, and how shifting perspectives on emotions can enhance both well-being and performance in the sales world.
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Matt Best (00:00):
Hello. Welcome to the Growth Workshop Podcast with me,
(00:02):
Matt Best and Jonny Adams.
Jonny Adams (00:04):
Hello.
Matt Best (00:05):
And it's great to be joined by Chris Hatfield today
from Sales Psyche. So Chris,thank you so much for joining
us, and we're really lookingforward to getting into the
conversation around thepsychology of sales success, and
specifically, obviously focusedon sales psychology and mindset.
So thank you so much for joiningus today.
Chris Hatfield (00:22):
You're welcome. Thanks for having me.
Matt Best (00:23):
Alright, perfect. Well, I'd love to understand a
little bit about your journey sofar, so maybe you could tell us
a bit about where it all startedfor you and how you've got to
where you are today.
Chris Hatfield (00:33):
Yeah. So I think, like a lot of people,
when they start a business, itcan come from, I always say,
Turn my pain into a passion,almost. So I probably came out
of university when I firstrealized I struggled a lot of
anxiety, and this was 1516,years ago, so back then, there
wasn't as much of an awarenessor understanding or even a label
around it, and I'd gone to uniand done sports coaching, I'd
(00:55):
always had a fascination withdevelopment and an interest of
sport, and I came out, and likemost people did back then, fell
into sales. Door sales inparticular, go and knock 100
doors a day. Get into a closedfloor selling loft and cabbie or
insulation 100% commission, goand do your thing. So most
people would say that's probablyanxiety inducing for anyone. But
(01:17):
at the time, I kind of thought,You know what, I don't want this
to define me. I thought, if I,if I don't do this, then will it
stop me? Will it get into themindset of, actually, I can
avoid this because of this? So Ithought, well, let's go and
apply some of the tools and theunderstandings I've got from my
degree, and for one, to use yourdegree, which most people don't
really and started to realizethat actually I was changing the
(01:37):
way I was looking at my anxiety,changing the way I was
responding to my emotions, to myperspective, to my self talk,
and with having that kind ofcoaching mindset. Always wanted
to support other people. That'swhere I got my fulfillment. So
it was never much of a lone wolfwhen it came to sales. So as I
went through my career, I wasgiving people advice and
suggestions and tools andrealizing actually this was
(01:59):
making a big difference. Andthought, okay, eventually I want
to do something bigger withthis. So I started a podcast
years ago now, and then startedthinking, right, how can I break
away from sales more intocoaching? And went and did a
coaching degree. And with theidea of being that being in
sales, I saw particularlymindset and well being was a
(02:19):
very reactive thing, like waitfor a problem, wait for someone
not to be motivated, wait forsomeone to be burnt out, and
then we'll do something aboutit. Or someone's thinking of
leaving, oh, what can we do? Andit's like, well, why aren't we
doing more preventative andproactive work in the same way
you would with a product orskills training? So I just felt
like this was a big gap, andstarted going in and delivering
(02:40):
talks and workshops around it,and then fell, do you know what?
Actually, this is something Ican turn into a business. So
about four and a bit years ago,during the pandemic, I thought,
You know what? Let me go andstart something? You know, I've
always been, not always, but inthe last few years, always ask
myself the question, what's theimpact of not doing this? Things
very easy to think when you'rethinking about something of all
(03:02):
the things that could go wrong.But as we'll probably come to
later on, the idea of almostmaking where you are now
uncomfortable or unfamiliar canactually provoke action as well.
And I thought I'll probablyresent myself. I'll resent my
job eventually, and when am Igoing to have a better time to
speak about mental health thanthe pandemic, because
unfortunately, obviously it'snot a good thing that the
(03:24):
pandemic happened, but it didbring the conversation of mental
health to the forefront where itbelongs. So did that start sales
psyche? And have been doing thatever since, delivering workshops
talks with the aims of equippingmanagers and salespeople with
the tools to build a healthy andhigh performing mind along the
way. And recognizing the wellbeing isn't just about making
yourself feel better, it, it canelevate your performance as
Matt Best (03:46):
Wow, yeah. And I think it's, it's such an
well.
important topic. It's animportant it's a topic that
jolly, and I talk to a lot ofour clients on not to the
Necessarily, always to the samelevel of detail that, but really
having that focus and that laserfocus on on mindset. And then,
yeah, I would probably agreedoor to door sales doesn't sound
like something that's lowanxiety, right? As in, most of
(04:07):
our audience are thinking, hangon, is this guy really? But so
thank you so much, Chris forsharing your story. And I know
you know, a lot of what you doin in this space is going to be
coming together in a in a bookcalled sales psyche. Is that
right?
Chris Hatfield (04:19):
Yeah. So sales psyche a guide to mastering a
healthy and high performingmind, is the idea behind it. So
I packed it with 35 of myactivities and tools that I
coach and train with, 25 leadersfrom the industry, as well
stories from people I've coachedwith the idea of giving people
the tools to build thatproductive, proactive mindset
(04:41):
that will ensure that you're notonly successful, but not at the
cost of your your well beingreally so that's something that
will be coming out later thisyear that I'm really excited
about. And just giving peopleand this sort of platform, I
think this is bigger than me,this topic, but I want to be
able to contribute in some wayto go, we've evolved. So much in
the world of sales, it's abouttime we evolved in this part as
(05:03):
well.
Jonny Adams (05:03):
I love a bit of DIY literature as you know, you know
those things. How manyframeworks?
Chris Hatfield (05:08):
Just about 35, so every chapter has a tool.
Jonny Adams (05:11):
Yeah, yeah. It sounds like a year's worth of
reading. Only get through onebook a year, yeah?
Chris Hatfield (05:17):
Well, I was thinking when I was doing it. I
go, What books do people booksthe salespeople go to about
mindset and wellbeing. They goto books not written for
salespeople. It's like going,oh, you know, what cookbook do
you use to cook Italian? Well,there's nothing Italian. So I go
to a French cook. Okay, surelysomeone should write something,
yes, actually, for people.
Matt Best (05:34):
Yeah, that's great. And I think those, those sorts
of bits of literature and thosesorts of books always have a
more, or certainly for me, havea more profound effect on on how
it absorbs into, you know, intomy own sort of subconscious, and
how I'd say that on so I'm surea lot of our listeners will be
looking out for that as it as itsort of hits the shells, as it
were later on this year. So Imean, just taking, I guess it
(05:55):
kind of a bit of a pause there,before we get into the heart of
today's conversation, which isreally kind of diving deeper
into the psychology of salessuccess, as is customer on the
Growth Workshop Podcast, Chris,we like to ask you what's been
interesting in your world forthe last across the last week.
So tell us what's, what's goingon in in your world at the
minute, that's that's kind offascinating that you could share
(06:16):
with our audience.
Chris Hatfield (06:16):
Yeah, I think. Well, a number of things, but
one that stands out in the lastsort of six, seven weeks,
started a free London Run Clubcommunity called run your mind
that embodies pretty much what Iwas just talking about. There,
giving people a space to come totalk, to run at the same time,
and talking and running orwalking has a profound impact on
reducing our stress, socialjudgment, anxiety, and helping
(06:40):
us feel more present in themoment. But this Run Club is
giving people a space once aweek. We have a different topic
each week and questions aroundthat topic that people pick at
random, and then we'll ask eachother on a run around Hyde Park,
and we've covered topics likecomparison with others,
happiness, habits, and it'sallowed people to give them that
(07:01):
space where a lot of us want totalk about these things, but
hey, we think, am I going to bea burden? B, how do I bring this
up? How do I bring up myfriends? Hey, do you compare
yourself with other people?Like, how do I approach that?
Whereas this kind of providesthat space to go, this is where
we do talk about those thingsthat maybe you can feel more
comfortable to then go and havea conversation with your
partner, with your friend, withyour colleague. Afterwards, take
(07:22):
that question with you and go,Hey, I got this question, or run
Club today, like, What's yourthoughts on this?
Jonny Adams (07:27):
Well, we've been on your LinkedIn profile, Chris,
you're a very you know, presentperson on LinkedIn, and we saw a
great post recently that had afew of your questions, although
we're not running, could we askone of those questions and see
what our responses are withthat? Yeah, right. Yeah. So we
picked one. It was about habits.And SBR, we are all about
habits. We talk about forminghabits, and how habits are an
important part for salesprofessionals and growth
(07:49):
professionals to be successful.But this question, and Matt,
brace yourself, what is onehabit you wish more people could
learn and benefit from?
Chris Hatfield (07:58):
Yeah, and I'll add just a bit of context here,
because I think one thing that Ilearned years ago that's always
helped me when I'm breaking badhabits and building healthy
habits, is you don't crave thehabit itself. You crave the
state it delivers. So anythingyou look at as a habit of yours
at the moment, you crave thestate it delivers. Even
exercise, you crave the state itdelivers. You're eating
chocolate, you crave the stateit delivers. And once you work
(08:19):
out what state you want toyou're looking for, you can then
recognize, actually, I'm notsort of bound by this unhealthy
habit, but it's actuallysomething that I can replace it
with. But I one habit I think Iwish more people could learn,
and I talk about it a lot, issomething I started about four
or five years ago, which wasleaving my phone out of the
bedroom. So going to bed in theevenings, I used to scroll if I
(08:42):
couldn't sleep, I used if I wokeup, I'd maybe just grab it, and
then I'd wake myself up, and inthe morning, it was the first
thing I grabbed. And I alwaysfelt sort of chained to that,
because you then see all thenotifications. And then I
thought, Okay, this is somethingI want to start doing. So I
started sort of two or threedays a week, then four days, and
then started recognizing andreflecting, how do I feel,
giving myself something to do,and now it's allowed me just to
(09:05):
go right. The bedroom is forsleeping. I don't scroll. In the
evening, I can switch off a lotquicker. I also feel like I'm
sleeping more consistently. Andthen in the morning, I always
then go right. What can I do formyself before I think about what
others want from me? And thathas been a habit that's just
like revolutionized, and it's anexample of habits that they can
(09:25):
be the smallest of things, thatcan make the biggest of
differences as well.
Jonny Adams (09:29):
Yeah, I love that, and without poaching your idea,
but pretty much I am going to, Iabsolutely resonate with the
sleeping situation. I found thatI go through fluctuations
through my life of sleepingwell, sleeping poorly, not
entirely sure how and why that'shappening. I don't know whether
it's the fact that there's, youknow, work pressures, family
(09:51):
pressures, or even maybe toomuch alcohol. Sometimes could be
all three, potentially. But Idefinitely think that habit of
removing technology before. Allgoing to bed, actually, for the
fact of having better time withmy wife and being a bit more
present. I think the only areaof my life, I say it now only
that's a bad word to use. One ofthe areas of my life is to be a
(10:12):
bit more present with my wife.And I think technology is a real
sort of challenge, and I'd liketo manage that better, and I
think the benefits would bephenomenal. So I'm probably on
that journey. I don't think I'venailed it yet, so sorry if I'm
gonna answer your questioncompletely.
Chris Hatfield (10:26):
That's fine.
Matt Best (10:27):
Slight variation of that, and I heard this recently
from somebody I forget exactlywhere, but talking about the
disconnect of work and home lifein this sort of modern world we
find ourselves living in, and alot of us working from home.
Because I know when we first metover video conference, you were
in your home office, Johnny, wespend a lot of time in well, we
(10:48):
spend a lot of time, I see you alot of time in your home office
when I'm in mine. And I think itsort of links, I think, to what
both of you are saying, which isaround this, the ability to kind
of disconnect, properly,disconnect from work. And this
thing, I'll call it a thing,because I forget whether it was
a video or whether it was aconversation or pop from a
podcast, but talked about havinga trigger for putting, for
(11:11):
breaking the chain between thosetwo environments. And I think,
actually, I see a lot of peoplewho are sort of, we're blurring
those two environments, myselfincluded, of okay, I'm just
going to leave my office, butI'm going to take my office, but
I'm going to take my laptop meso I can just finish an email
while the kids are eating theirdinner. And I'm like, talk about
kind of reconnecting with thefamily and having that, that
sort of isolation. I mean, Iused to have an hour and a half
(11:31):
on the train to find that time,and now I have 30 seconds
between leaving the door andlanding in the kitchen, and I
think that's really, reallyimportant to so for me, it's for
myself. But also, as I see inothers, it's having the ability
to go, Okay, well, that's sortof, let's shut the lid. What's
that thing that trigger that'sgoing to stop it, that's going
to disconnect me from from work,me into family, me so I can
(11:54):
properly be present. So Islightly stolen your points, but
I think that that thing'sparticularly important. Yeah, I
don't know if you've got anythoughts.
Chris Hatfield (12:01):
Well, I've got a couple of things, and probably
even one of the tools, actually,we talked about the start to use
that, which can help withswitching off. But it's linked
to something Starbucks did astudy a few years ago. I think
it was called the third place orthird space study, as to why the
most popular reason they go totheir coffee shops. And it was
actually that transition fromgoing from work to to home,
people see it as a way. That'swhy most people go to a coffee
(12:23):
shop on the way. That's why mostpeople will say, let's meet a
coffee shop. Not just because ofcoffee, but it's that kind of
break in between, and that'swhat a lot of people have lost
with working from home, is thatdivide, particularly when you
don't have the luxury of a homeoffice. And you know, I've
worked with salespeople thatmight have particularly during
covid, who were sort of in ahouse share, for example, and
all sharing a living room andnot having that luxury in your
(12:45):
brain, then finds it verydifficult to go hang on. We were
working in here today, and nowI'm meant to be chilling out,
but I'm starting to have thesecore memories of, well, you
know, I'm here for this reason,so how can I switch off from
that? So something that Iencourage people do is what I
call it the brain dump exercise.So the biggest challenge I find
is that people are so busy intheir day they don't have time
(13:07):
to reflect on it. And often it'snot until we go to bed that we
sort of unwind due totechnology, and that's when all
those thoughts come through, andthat can often be the reason why
people struggle to sleep. It's abit like being in a CGI film.
You do all this green screenstuff, and you're like, hang on.
Like, hang on, I don't reallymake sense of it until I watch
it back at the end. So the ideabehind the brain dump is it's
(13:28):
four quadrants. You do this atyour end of your day, like just
before you're finishing wrappingup, and you can spend five
minutes on it, 1015, and there'sfour quadrants, there's pending,
there's um, wins, challenges,solutions. So pending is you
brain dump everything that youthink your brain is going to
think about for the next day. Orif it's a Friday next week, even
(13:49):
if you've got it in yourcalendar, go, what is it
something is going to pop up?I've got, I've got to send this
email. I've got to speak to thisperson. I've got to book a
plumber like it doesn't justhave to be work related. Get it
all down. Wins is, what have Idone well today or even this
week, if you're doing at the endof the week, and not just what
has happened? Because if you saythat, you'll often focus on the
things you haven't controlledwhat have. And then the
(14:10):
challenges is, rather than justgoing, Oh, it's been a really
stressful day or wasn'tproductive, what made it that
like? What was the tangiblething? I got caught up in
emails. I got caught intomeetings. I said yes to
something that actually took twohours longer than I thought it
would be. And then solutions,what can I do tomorrow or next
week that's going to mitigatethat actually check how urgent
something is, or close my emailsdown when I'm making calls. So
(14:33):
the idea is, you're left withthis brain dump at the end of
the day. The pendingpsychologically means, and
subconsciously, your brainthinks, Oh, we're not going to
forget it, because it's writtendown. And anyone listening to
this with kids will realizelike, when you write something
down, when you put it on thefridge, when give kids
timetables, their anxietyreduces. And we're no different
as adults like you write itdown, it says, Hey, we're not
going to forget about this,because your brain is then like,
(14:54):
well, I need to think about it,and I need to keep it top of
mind. And then when you do that,your primal brain switches on
and goes. Need to solve it rightnow. So the pending solves that.
The wins allows for that selfreflection. It's not always
obvious. It gives you thatimmediate sort of gratification
in a different way. Challengesdoesn't just keep you stuck at
that level of who was stressfulas unproductive it was. Here's
what the reasons were, and thensolutions are right? I can go
(15:17):
into my evening knowing I'mgoing to do something about this
tomorrow or next week.
Jonny Adams (15:22):
And thank you, Chris, because last week I was
feeling super overwhelmed, andto a point it got to Friday, and
I was like, I could do thiswhole week again. And and, you
know, we work closely, right? Ican see when you're overwhelmed
and I'm overwhelmed, and I'msurely the same has arisen for
you. And I wrote a list down. Itwas a list this time, not in the
quadrants, but I was able to usethe trigger, shut the shut the
(15:44):
lid, wrote the list. And Iremember then I was able to
unpack and spend some time mywife and actually enjoyed the
weekend and just chisel away atthat list on Monday. But I love
the quadrants, I think becauseI, like most of us, like write a
to do list, and they always seemto, like, cross off the top
thing, because you're like, yes,I've done one. It's that kind of
thing. You just note down thewins and the pending actions.
(16:05):
Thank you.
Chris Hatfield (16:05):
Yeah. And it reduces the chance of those
Sunday scaries from coming,because most people go, I'll
plan my week on a Sunday, andI'm always like, how can you
become more efficient and nothaving to use your weekend?
We'll do it on Friday, becauseeverything will be fresh in your
mind, and you'll also recognizewhat's worked that week and what
hasn't to allow you to go in,and then you can always look at
it. When your brain pops up overthe weekend, going, Oh, what
about this? Well, let's have alook. Okay, we've got it. It's
(16:27):
okay.
Jonny Adams (16:28):
Love it.
Matt Best (16:29):
Yeah, I think that's brilliant. I've definitely got
much less sophisticated waysthat I think I sort of do some
of that, like you journey withto do lists. I'm a very to do
list type person. It's quite anorganized to do list. But I
think just having that, the thethe variety of different things
that that picks on all of thosepoints, not just activities led,
but thinking about how you'refeeling and celebrating those
(16:52):
successes, which is somethingaround our dinner table every
well, I say every evening, kidsaren't always at home for
dinner, but that question of,you know, what was good in our
day? Like so we asked oneanother what was good in our
day? And it challenges us all tosort of think about something
that was that could have puts asmile on your face, as opposed
to sitting down at the tablegoing well, that was a rubbish
way to do this, or that was aterrible day, or I had this, or
(17:12):
I had that, and it's just yeah.So I love that.
Chris Hatfield (17:16):
Yeah, I think you owe it to yourself. You
know, on a day, if you'respending 810, 12 hours of work
or a week, 7080, 90 hours. Youowe it to yourself to recognize
where that's got you, you know.Imagine if you were building a
house for 70 or 80 hours a weekand you didn't look at it. You
know. Imagine if you you wereclimbing a mountain and you
never turn around to actuallyacknowledge the the distance
you've come is like, the pointof that is not, it's not trying
(17:38):
to create toxic positivity.Where you're you're saying, oh,
everything's fine. I'm going toignore the challenges. They're
there already, but these are thethings that you don't or aren't
always aware of, and it'sproviding more of a balance,
like neutral thinking, ratherthan trying to create this toxic
positivity thinking.
Matt Best (17:52):
Yeah, so, you know, obviously sales, sales psyche,
and getting into the kind ofpsychology of sales success,
and, you know, you're sharingthere just some, some sort of
tools, techniques and kind offrameworks, and I'm sure, you
know, the 3037, that are in thebook, if you had to, sort of, if
we, if we kind of transition tothe problem as it were, like,
(18:14):
what? What do you think of thetwo to three things related to a
sales person's mindset thatcould potentially threaten their
performance and well being?
Chris Hatfield (18:22):
Yeah, I'll headline the three, and then
feel free if you want to pickit. Which ones I think self
talk. Yeah, I think how youperceive emotions and your
comfort zone or labeling yourcomfort zone. Those are the
three. Where do you want tostart?
Jonny Adams (18:36):
I want to go down the middle to start off with. So
perceive emotions and describewhat that meant. Could you give
me a context of what that means,or maybe an example, because now
I think help me unpack that alittle bit more.
Chris Hatfield (18:48):
Yeah, well, for example, when you're feeling
stressed, say you get an emailcome in, or a call doesn't go to
plan, or you talked aboutfeeling overwhelmed, is how you
perceive that feeling. A lot ofpeople can see as I'm fighting
against this, why am I feelingstressed again? Why am I feeling
so anxious? Why am I feelingnervous about this presentation,
like frustrated by it, and, youknow, beating yourself hump over
(19:12):
it, which, of course, kind ofcouples of self talk, but can
lead you down that path ofsticking there, ruining your
day, ruining your week, and tothe point of the brain dump. Not
doing that means you're thenjust going to focus going to
focus on all the negativethings. And Deloitte released a
study a few years ago where theysaid, we've labeled pretty about
25 core emotions, but we've got15,000 combinations we can feel.
(19:32):
So the problem there is you canoften be mislabeling emotions as
well. And it's very easy to godown the assumption that, oh,
this is anxiety, this is stress.And then you then your habitual
brain will go well every time wefeel like this. This must be us
being anxious. Then this must bestress. And the other problem
with this is how you perceiveemotion. So if you perceive
stress as a negative emotion,you'll get more stressed about
(19:54):
being stressed. If you perceiveit as a positive emotion, you
might try and put yourself intomore stressful situations. But.
As you think, I thrive offstress. I need deadlines, but
that can lead to burnoutquicker. Yeah? An example I use
here, either of you like rollercoasters?
Matt Best (20:08):
If I feel strapped in.
Chris Hatfield (20:10):
Ok, so on the fence.
Jonny Adams (20:11):
You know, I like, I do like, weirdly, pleasure, the
rickety wooden ones, yeah, Iremember in America where you
don't feel like you're strappedin and at the end if it you go,
oh thank God I finished that.
Matt Best (20:26):
I can't do those where I feel like I've been in a
fight with Anthony Johnson.
Jonny Adams (20:30):
Oh, you'd win.
Chris Hatfield (20:31):
So I enjoy them. I wouldn't ask you to visualize
this too much, but imagine wewent on a roller coaster
together. We'd both go round. Wewould both feel the same thing,
like we wouldn't be able tothink straight. Probably have
sweaty palms. We'd have 1000thoughts going on, but our
perception of that feeling wouldbe different. I'd see it as I
want to do it again. You'd belike, get me off of this thing.
And that's the thing here. Thereis no such thing as a good or
(20:51):
bad emotion. There is only agood or bad perception or
reaction or response to anemotion. All emotions are
signals, you know, like thesmoke alarm going off in the
house, not saying the house ison fire, yet it's what we do as
a result that can then turn itinto an almost self fulfilling
prophecy. You know when you feela question I asked someone want
to run the other week was, whichis one emotion you wish you
(21:13):
could never feel again. Theysaid anxiety. And I said, how
would that negatively impactyou? Imagine never anxious about
any presentations. Imagine youwere never anxious about what
you would say to someone.Imagine you were never anxious
about how you planned your day.What could be the impact there?
And I'm like, well, I might saysomething I regret, or maybe I
wouldn't plan for apresentation. And that's the
thing here. Like, you know, whenwe have perceptions of emotions
(21:34):
like that, we don't we losesight of the benefits of them.
Jonny Adams (21:37):
It's really interesting. You say, sorry for
butting in. It resonates with apart of our jobs. The three of
us are standing up anddelivering some type of insight
to professional individuals. Iknow my worst performance in the
last five years is where I gotmyself into a position of
feeling like I was absolutelyfine at doing what I was doing.
I didn't enable whether it wasanxiety or the pressure, I
(21:58):
didn't I just suppressed it onpurpose. I was like, I'll find
I'll fly in. I've done it forfor four and a half years, or
whatever it was, turned up theworst delivery I've ever done in
my life. And from that moment,I've always said to myself, I've
got to allow this, whatever itis, because I'm finding it hard
now to label it, because there'sabout 15,000 odd options there,
but I've got allowed to justdeal with it, because I know
(22:19):
when I do enable that thing, andI stand up. That's my best
delivery. You know, I have totackle that, although I don't
want it there. So that was agood lesson learned. I didn't
want it. I didn't allow it toarise. It wasn't very good
delivery. Now, I just allow it,and I have to deal with it.
Chris Hatfield (22:33):
Well, it's it's even changing. We'll come to
self talk shortly, but even thesame way of, for example, being
thirsty. Imagine if you didn'tknow water was the answer to
being thirsty, it would be aterrifying experience. You'd be
like, hang on. My mouth'sgetting drier. I'm getting a
headache. I feel dizzy. This isquite scary, but we don't have
that reaction to thirst. And I'mtalking from a first world
country here. Of course, I'm nottaking for granted that people
(22:54):
in the world, but often wedon't. We think, Okay, well, I'm
just gonna get some water. Wesee as a very clear response. So
the same with hunger as well.But imagine you think you'd
never tell yourself, Oh, I hopeI never get hungry again, or
never get thirsty again, ornever get cold again, or never
get sad again. Is you? He's notsaying you want these feelings,
but you know they're part ofbeing human, and you also know
(23:15):
there's a quick solution orsomething that you can go about
doing it, and that's often whenwe look at other feelings, like
anxiety. Why people can struggleso much, because people aren't
educated on how to deal with iteffectively. So that's why it
can be such a Oh, god. What do Ido with this feeling? And I
still get anxious about things,but now that I change the
response to, what are you tryingto tell me, versus Why is this
happening to me? Like, what'sthe signal here? What is it I'm
(23:38):
feeling anxious about? And onceyou change those to constructive
questions and your self talk,which we can come into, sort of
marries in nicely to this ofgoing, how am I speaking to
myself in a way I'd want someoneelse speak to me? Or would I
would speak to someone else? Ifsomeone else was saying, Why are
you so anxious about this? Wouldthat make me feel more or less
anxious? Probably more so what'sa more constructive thing?
(24:00):
What's an empathetic thing if Iwas sitting down with someone?
And one thing I always encouragepeople to do with their self
talk, or whether it's impostersyndrome or about people around
no attachment styles, is give ita name. Give it a human name. So
treat it like it was a person. Iwas working with someone
recently, and they labeledtheirs James. So they went to
uni with a guy called James, andJames was a guy that was
(24:20):
incredibly anxious. Every timethey suggested something, James
would would share something, go,what if this goes wrong? What if
this happens? And all they didover the years was just sit down
with James and listen and thensort of reassure him. They
didn't Judge James because theythought, Well, James is only
going to feel more anxious.However we judge them, he's just
going to bowl it up and it willcome out in other ways. And
that's the one of the mosteffective things you can do, is
(24:42):
think about, how can I observemy thoughts rather than judge
them as much? And when I observethem, I can then listen to them
and going, what are you tryingto tell me? And now I'm going,
Ah, I'm anxious that maybe if wetake a presentation, for
example, public speaking, whichmost people can relate to, I'm
anxious they'll ask a question Idon't know the answer to. I'm
anxious if it's a pitch that.Throw out a objection I can't
handle. I'm anxious thatthere'll be people in the room I
(25:04):
haven't met yet. Okay, what'sone or two things within my
control I can do to reduce thechances that are happening. I
can preempt that objection. Ican plan for that question, or
ask someone else. I can researchthose people, or ask my contact,
like, how would How do thesepeople best receive information?
And then I go into that, andthen I'm like, actually, do you
know what if I didn't do that,if I didn't feel like that, I
(25:25):
probably wouldn't have preemptedthat objection, I wouldn't have
answered that question. So Ileave it going. I'm actually
grateful for that feeling, andnot in a toxic positivity way
again, but in a way of next timeit shows up and then, like, Ah,
here you go. Here's your signal.What is it trying to tell me?
Matt Best (25:38):
I think what you just shared there, Chris, which is
that listen to your ownthoughts, because I think so
often people we I say we onlyare talking for everybody here,
but if I think about me, andactually, if I think about some
of the people that we work with,Johnny as well, is that we're
encouraging them to think aboutand to translate it into
something productive, right toyour point, we don't want just
blind positivity, because itdoesn't help us in any way, but
(26:00):
to turn it into kind ofproductive self talk, well,
actually, I think there's a bitin between that you just shared
there, which is, we got tolisten to it first, yeah, so
that we can unpick it, so thatwe can translate it, rather than
just saying, I'm going to takethat word and directly translate
it to this word, and then tryand convince myself that that's
the thing. So I think that'sreally important, like, so if I,
(26:21):
I guess, if I think about theaudience and the people
listening to this podcast, ifyou're out there, and you're an
individual contributor, andyou're, you know, in your first
18 months in the sales role, andyou're thinking, I've got my
first like, big pitch, what am Igoing to do, having that,
listening to that, those thosethoughts, listening to your own
thoughts and your own Perhapsdestructive self talk before you
(26:41):
kind of jump into turning itaround, makes it maybe more
likely that you'll believe it.
Chris Hatfield (26:46):
And there's another surprise tool for this
that I use, called notice it.Name it, neutralize it. So
notice it. Notice and this iswhere you want to become more
familiar with your triggers,your physiological triggers as
well, because you'll start tonotice your physiological
triggers will be there beforeyour thoughts are they'll often
be your sign. So for example, Istarted to realize I started
tapping my leg or, like,clenching my fist if I was
(27:09):
starting to feel anxious, so Iknew that was a sign of, ah, I'm
going to start feeling orthinking a certain way, just
bringing that awareness in thesame way you might be like, Oh,
I'm going outside. I might startfeeling cold. So I don't need to
panic, because if I do, I know Ineed to put a jumper on, rather
than a helm. Why am I feelinglike this? Well, obviously, I'm
outside with just a t shirt on,so it's going to be cold. So
(27:29):
it's noticing it. It's thennoticing it from an observer
point of view. Ah, rather thanwhy is Why am I feeling anxious
again? Is, for example, why youcall my self talk Christian? So
I'll be like, Oh, Christian'shaving this thought again, or
Christians thinking about thisagain in a very neutral way, not
in a positive way, because,again, I've got a bit of a
problem with positive thinking,because it's almost just trying
(27:49):
to convince yourself to think adifferent way. And your brain
then goes, let's be honest, noteverything does end up
positively. It then goes, See,told you, so we should have
thought negatively. It's likewhen someone says, just be
confident. Oh, okay, yeah, ordon't worry. Or calm down anyone
listening says, Have you eversaid calm down someone? Has it
ever had a benefit? No, it has.It has the opposite effect, and
we all regret saying it. Evenwhen you say in the best
(28:11):
intentions, it doesn't help thesituation. So notice it. Name
it. So name those thoughts. Andwhenever you're doing this
exercise, which I wouldencourage people to do
proactively, because any toolyou practice proactively, the
more likely you're going to useit reactively, and the less
likely you'll need itreactively. But practicing
writing it down on paper,because going back to that list,
(28:32):
example, when we write we haveto use the rational part of our
brain. We disrupt that amygdala,that amygdala hijack, which is
often where those irrationalthoughts and feelings sit, and
because it forces us to bepresent, we can all probably
touch type here. If you try andwrite without looking, it
doesn't end well. So you'rehaving to force yourself to
focus. So you're writing thosethoughts. Christian is thinking
this, this is going to go wrong.What if this happens? What if
(28:55):
this happens? This is where youget into those negative what ifs
then the neutralize it part. Youcan go two ways here. So if
you're thinking about a futuresituation, a presentation, a
meeting, a call, anything, youknow, even outside of work, it
could be meeting the in laws forthe first time, for example, is
going two questions, whateverthose thoughts are, what's the
(29:16):
biggest what are the biggest twoor three reasons? I'm thinking
that might happen. So Robin'sgoing, I'm anxious this is going
to go wrong. What are the two orthree biggest reasons? Are you
reasons I use that example thereof presenting question,
Objection, and then what are oneor two things are in my control
I can do to reduce the chanceit's not stop them, because I'm
going to be realistic here, butI can reduce them. Okay, here's
one or two actions, and whatI've done there, I've given
(29:37):
myself some tangible things tofocus on, and often that's all
we need in a situation, isn't toknow that it's going to be
everything's going to be fine,but to know we've got some
influence within that controlthat will often reduce your
anxiety and stress and goingback to overwhelm. Overwhelm is
often a breakdown of thoughts,not always of life, and it's
often where you've been thinkingtoo much about things, when you
(29:58):
can actually bring it back tohear something in the process.
And that I can do, I feel lessoverwhelmed by it, and that's a
byproduct of a list. So that'sthe neutralized part. There's
another one which I can go into,which is where maybe you're
overthinking a conversationyou've had of a manager, or
you're thinking, Oh, that emailis a bit short. They're annoyed
of me. Or Hang on, that personhasn't texted me back yet. I've
done something wrong. And thisis where you want to imagine
(30:20):
your brain is like a courtroom.You've got the prosecution
throwing out all thoseaccusations. They don't respect
you. They think this of you. Youmight have people fold their
arms sitting there, you know,when they're when you're
presenting or afterwards,thinking they didn't ask many
questions. Maybe they didn'tenjoy it. So then you want to go
defense in the courtroom, Whereis the evidence that that
thought is true or false? Whatelse could be true in this
(30:40):
situation, and if I knew thatthought, other thought were
true, how would I think or feeldifferently about this?
Matt Best (30:45):
That's brilliant. Again, that's, I think that's
really, really important tothink and a lot of this, I'm
thinking in terms of the it'sapplication, Chris is, I mean,
obviously it's not just in insales. And a lot of this can
relate to, you know, you can,I'm sure. Again, people
listening to this are recalling,perhaps a meeting that didn't go
quite as they planned. Andthey're thinking, oh yeah, maybe
(31:06):
if I take that same courtroomapproach, that might help we
sort of reflect on it, but alsoin any kind of job, in just in
life in general, right? This issuper helpful way of handling
some of these challenges.
Jonny Adams (31:16):
And there was a third, wasn't there? You said
comfort zoning was the third. Isthat? Right? What's the...
Chris Hatfield (31:21):
Well I think the problem I have with the comfort
zone is, is how it's labeled,is, if it was so comfortable,
why is everyone trying to leaveit? You know, if this was a nice
thing, why are so many peopletalking about leaving it all the
time? If you said, I'm in thisrelationship, I really want to
get out of it, because I soundsa bit toxic to me, like, doesn't
sound like a good relationship,if everyone's telling you to
leave it. And I think there's afew problems that come from the
(31:42):
comfort zone. Is you thenperceive everything outside of
it is going to be uncomfortable.Going back to labeling, our
brains are very black and white,and they're thinking is, you
know, if I think that I'm I'mdon't feel motivated today, I
can assume I'm unmotivated, or Idon't feel happy. I can assume
I'm sad. But, of course, there'sa lot of gray in between. But
when you have a perception thatthings are going to be
uncomfortable, either A, you'llprocrastinate on doing it. B,
(32:04):
you won't do it, or C, you gointo it with a negative
headspace, and can create a selffulfilling prophecy, almost
being like, Well, I told you,so, you know, I told myself so
that I wasn't going to be goodat that, or it wasn't going to
be good. And it's then also,when you do start going outside
of it, you then start going, Oh,this is a nice, comfortable
thing I can go back to, so itseems a bit easier to kind of
revert back to and maybe notpush through and build that
(32:26):
resilience as well. So my sortof perspective on this is it's
more of a familiar zone, ratherthan a comfort zone, is that you
don't become more comfortablewith something. You become more
familiar with it. Like amarathon runner doesn't become
more comfortable with hittingthat wall. They become more
familiar with the feeling behindit. That person going to the gym
doesn't become more comfortablewith lifting weights. They
(32:46):
become more familiar with how todo it and familiar with the
feelings afterwards. If youthink about anything you do, you
don't become more comfortablewith it. You become more
familiar with it. And the ideabehind that is you then start
looking at everything outside ofwhat you're familiar with is not
uncomfortable, but unfamiliar,which straight away, doesn't say
to your brain, this is going tobe scary, this is going to be
painful, this is going to besomething all just unfamiliar.
(33:08):
And I'm being unfamiliar withsomething can breed curiosity
and go actually, I'm curious tobecome more familiar with this,
and the more familiar I becomesomething, ironically, I didn't
become more comfortable with it.Yeah. But looking at it that
way, just that labeling in yourbrain allows you to kind of go
in with more curiosity, ratherthan sort of thinking, Oh God,
this is going to be tense. I'mgoing to struggle here.
Jonny Adams (33:29):
And it promotes the idea of habits again, right? You
know, to get from familiar tounfamiliar, then to get to the
familiar again, then you'd haveto form some type of productive
habit, or maybe unproductive,but you're going to get familiar
to a point, right? So that'sgoing to take habits. I like
that. I like the challenge,because the way that I've seen
comfort zones articulated beforeis comfort zone, stretch zone
(33:51):
and panic zone, and then youoverlay this sort of classic.
You know, if we said, let's allgo for a 5k or you'll be fine,
Chris, because you're you'rerunning. But then if I said,
Let's do half, no, the halfmarathon, 56k that stretch zone
and then panic zone is the halfmarathon, right? Is the again,
not for you, but you'll beabsolutely fine. But yeah,
that's how I've heard it. But Ireally like the flip on that and
(34:13):
the lag. And it goes back tothat, how words create pictures
and feelings in your head. Soyou know the spin on using
familiar, familiar andunfamiliar, when you think about
that, how that promptedcuriosity, but how that changes
your emotions inside you a lot,how words are so powerful,
aren't they? That's what I'mhearing from you today.
Chris Hatfield (34:31):
Yeah, and even coupling that we've touched on
self talk a little bit, but youmentioned earlier on, like
something I have to get betterwith that feeling is even just
being conscious of one of thesimplest things that I encourage
people to think about is eventhose little words, like, should
have need, when you think aboutit, everyone could probably
relate to this. Listening tothis, you've been in a job,
relationship, friendship,somewhere where you've had
(34:53):
someone micromanaging. You'regoing you need to do more of
this. You should do this. Youhave to do this. And we hate it.
We hate demands, but we put iton ourselves every day. I.
Should work out more. I have toeat healthier. I need to do
this. And that's what a lot ofpeople do, particularly for New
Year's resolutions, which is whyit fails you tell yourself this
so much, you then end up selfsabotaging, because your brain
(35:14):
goes, well, you're an adult. Ordo I want? Or it's then, like,
you know, I need to thatjudgment when you don't. So even
just changing it to I want to,or get to, like, I want to work
on this. I don't need to. I wantto, because choice. I get to, I
get to go for a run today. Iwant to become more mindful of
how I eat. I want to become moreconscious of how much I
exercise. I want to become morefamiliar with this feeling I get
(35:34):
before public speaking.
Jonny Adams (35:36):
That's, that's just...Thank you.
Matt Best (35:38):
Chris, thank you so much for joining us, and to
everyone listening, join us forpart two as we continue this conversation.
Hello. Welcome to the Growth Workshop Podcast with me,
(00:02):
Matt Best and Jonny Adams.
Jonny Adams (00:04):
Hello.
Matt Best (00:05):
And it's great to be joined by Chris Hatfield today
from Sales Psyche. So Chris,thank you so much for joining
us, and we're really lookingforward to getting into the
conversation around thepsychology of sales success, and
specifically, obviously focusedon sales psychology and mindset.
So thank you so much for joiningus today.
Chris Hatfield (00:22):
You're welcome. Thanks for having me.
Matt Best (00:23):
Alright, perfect. Well, I'd love to understand a
little bit about your journey sofar, so maybe you could tell us
a bit about where it all startedfor you and how you've got to
where you are today.
Chris Hatfield (00:33):
Yeah. So I think, like a lot of people,
when they start a business, itcan come from, I always say,
Turn my pain into a passion,almost. So I probably came out
of university when I firstrealized I struggled a lot of
anxiety, and this was 1516,years ago, so back then, there
wasn't as much of an awarenessor understanding or even a label
around it, and I'd gone to uniand done sports coaching, I'd
(00:55):
always had a fascination withdevelopment and an interest of
sport, and I came out, and likemost people did back then, fell
into sales. Door sales inparticular, go and knock 100
doors a day. Get into a closedfloor selling loft and cabbie or
insulation 100% commission, goand do your thing. So most
people would say that's probablyanxiety inducing for anyone. But
(01:17):
at the time, I kind of thought,You know what, I don't want this
to define me. I thought, if I,if I don't do this, then will it
stop me? Will it get into themindset of, actually, I can
avoid this because of this? So Ithought, well, let's go and
apply some of the tools and theunderstandings I've got from my
degree, and for one, to use yourdegree, which most people don't
really and started to realizethat actually I was changing the
(01:37):
way I was looking at my anxiety,changing the way I was
responding to my emotions, to myperspective, to my self talk,
and with having that kind ofcoaching mindset. Always wanted
to support other people. That'swhere I got my fulfillment. So
it was never much of a lone wolfwhen it came to sales. So as I
went through my career, I wasgiving people advice and
suggestions and tools andrealizing actually this was
(01:59):
making a big difference. Andthought, okay, eventually I want
to do something bigger withthis. So I started a podcast
years ago now, and then startedthinking, right, how can I break
away from sales more intocoaching? And went and did a
coaching degree. And with theidea of being that being in
sales, I saw particularlymindset and well being was a
(02:19):
very reactive thing, like waitfor a problem, wait for someone
not to be motivated, wait forsomeone to be burnt out, and
then we'll do something aboutit. Or someone's thinking of
leaving, oh, what can we do? Andit's like, well, why aren't we
doing more preventative andproactive work in the same way
you would with a product orskills training? So I just felt
like this was a big gap, andstarted going in and delivering
(02:40):
talks and workshops around it,and then fell, do you know what?
Actually, this is something Ican turn into a business. So
about four and a bit years ago,during the pandemic, I thought,
You know what? Let me go andstart something? You know, I've
always been, not always, but inthe last few years, always ask
myself the question, what's theimpact of not doing this? Things
very easy to think when you'rethinking about something of all
(03:02):
the things that could go wrong.But as we'll probably come to
later on, the idea of almostmaking where you are now
uncomfortable or unfamiliar canactually provoke action as well.
And I thought I'll probablyresent myself. I'll resent my
job eventually, and when am Igoing to have a better time to
speak about mental health thanthe pandemic, because
unfortunately, obviously it'snot a good thing that the
(03:24):
pandemic happened, but it didbring the conversation of mental
health to the forefront where itbelongs. So did that start sales
psyche? And have been doing thatever since, delivering workshops
talks with the aims of equippingmanagers and salespeople with
the tools to build a healthy andhigh performing mind along the
way. And recognizing the wellbeing isn't just about making
yourself feel better, it, it canelevate your performance as
Matt Best (03:46):
Wow, yeah. And I think it's, it's such an
well.
important topic. It's animportant it's a topic that
jolly, and I talk to a lot ofour clients on not to the
Necessarily, always to the samelevel of detail that, but really
having that focus and that laserfocus on on mindset. And then,
yeah, I would probably agreedoor to door sales doesn't sound
like something that's lowanxiety, right? As in, most of
(04:07):
our audience are thinking, hangon, is this guy really? But so
thank you so much, Chris forsharing your story. And I know
you know, a lot of what you doin in this space is going to be
coming together in a in a bookcalled sales psyche. Is that
right?
Chris Hatfield (04:19):
Yeah. So sales psyche a guide to mastering a
healthy and high performingmind, is the idea behind it. So
I packed it with 35 of myactivities and tools that I
coach and train with, 25 leadersfrom the industry, as well
stories from people I've coachedwith the idea of giving people
the tools to build thatproductive, proactive mindset
(04:41):
that will ensure that you're notonly successful, but not at the
cost of your your well beingreally so that's something that
will be coming out later thisyear that I'm really excited
about. And just giving peopleand this sort of platform, I
think this is bigger than me,this topic, but I want to be
able to contribute in some wayto go, we've evolved. So much in
the world of sales, it's abouttime we evolved in this part as
(05:03):
well.
Jonny Adams (05:03):
I love a bit of DIY literature as you know, you know
those things. How manyframeworks?
Chris Hatfield (05:08):
Just about 35, so every chapter has a tool.
Jonny Adams (05:11):
Yeah, yeah. It sounds like a year's worth of
reading. Only get through onebook a year, yeah?
Chris Hatfield (05:17):
Well, I was thinking when I was doing it. I
go, What books do people booksthe salespeople go to about
mindset and wellbeing. They goto books not written for
salespeople. It's like going,oh, you know, what cookbook do
you use to cook Italian? Well,there's nothing Italian. So I go
to a French cook. Okay, surelysomeone should write something,
yes, actually, for people.
Matt Best (05:34):
Yeah, that's great. And I think those, those sorts
of bits of literature and thosesorts of books always have a
more, or certainly for me, havea more profound effect on on how
it absorbs into, you know, intomy own sort of subconscious, and
how I'd say that on so I'm surea lot of our listeners will be
looking out for that as it as itsort of hits the shells, as it
were later on this year. So Imean, just taking, I guess it
(05:55):
kind of a bit of a pause there,before we get into the heart of
today's conversation, which isreally kind of diving deeper
into the psychology of salessuccess, as is customer on the
Growth Workshop Podcast, Chris,we like to ask you what's been
interesting in your world forthe last across the last week.
So tell us what's, what's goingon in in your world at the
minute, that's that's kind offascinating that you could share
(06:16):
with our audience.
Chris Hatfield (06:16):
Yeah, I think. Well, a number of things, but
one that stands out in the lastsort of six, seven weeks,
started a free London Run Clubcommunity called run your mind
that embodies pretty much what Iwas just talking about. There,
giving people a space to come totalk, to run at the same time,
and talking and running orwalking has a profound impact on
reducing our stress, socialjudgment, anxiety, and helping
(06:40):
us feel more present in themoment. But this Run Club is
giving people a space once aweek. We have a different topic
each week and questions aroundthat topic that people pick at
random, and then we'll ask eachother on a run around Hyde Park,
and we've covered topics likecomparison with others,
happiness, habits, and it'sallowed people to give them that
(07:01):
space where a lot of us want totalk about these things, but
hey, we think, am I going to bea burden? B, how do I bring this
up? How do I bring up myfriends? Hey, do you compare
yourself with other people?Like, how do I approach that?
Whereas this kind of providesthat space to go, this is where
we do talk about those thingsthat maybe you can feel more
comfortable to then go and havea conversation with your
partner, with your friend, withyour colleague. Afterwards, take
(07:22):
that question with you and go,Hey, I got this question, or run
Club today, like, What's yourthoughts on this?
Jonny Adams (07:27):
Well, we've been on your LinkedIn profile, Chris,
you're a very you know, presentperson on LinkedIn, and we saw a
great post recently that had afew of your questions, although
we're not running, could we askone of those questions and see
what our responses are withthat? Yeah, right. Yeah. So we
picked one. It was about habits.And SBR, we are all about
habits. We talk about forminghabits, and how habits are an
important part for salesprofessionals and growth
(07:49):
professionals to be successful.But this question, and Matt,
brace yourself, what is onehabit you wish more people could
learn and benefit from?
Chris Hatfield (07:58):
Yeah, and I'll add just a bit of context here,
because I think one thing that Ilearned years ago that's always
helped me when I'm breaking badhabits and building healthy
habits, is you don't crave thehabit itself. You crave the
state it delivers. So anythingyou look at as a habit of yours
at the moment, you crave thestate it delivers. Even
exercise, you crave the state itdelivers. You're eating
chocolate, you crave the stateit delivers. And once you work
(08:19):
out what state you want toyou're looking for, you can then
recognize, actually, I'm notsort of bound by this unhealthy
habit, but it's actuallysomething that I can replace it
with. But I one habit I think Iwish more people could learn,
and I talk about it a lot, issomething I started about four
or five years ago, which wasleaving my phone out of the
bedroom. So going to bed in theevenings, I used to scroll if I
(08:42):
couldn't sleep, I used if I wokeup, I'd maybe just grab it, and
then I'd wake myself up, and inthe morning, it was the first
thing I grabbed. And I alwaysfelt sort of chained to that,
because you then see all thenotifications. And then I
thought, Okay, this is somethingI want to start doing. So I
started sort of two or threedays a week, then four days, and
then started recognizing andreflecting, how do I feel,
giving myself something to do,and now it's allowed me just to
(09:05):
go right. The bedroom is forsleeping. I don't scroll. In the
evening, I can switch off a lotquicker. I also feel like I'm
sleeping more consistently. Andthen in the morning, I always
then go right. What can I do formyself before I think about what
others want from me? And thathas been a habit that's just
like revolutionized, and it's anexample of habits that they can
(09:25):
be the smallest of things, thatcan make the biggest of
differences as well.
Jonny Adams (09:29):
Yeah, I love that, and without poaching your idea,
but pretty much I am going to, Iabsolutely resonate with the
sleeping situation. I found thatI go through fluctuations
through my life of sleepingwell, sleeping poorly, not
entirely sure how and why that'shappening. I don't know whether
it's the fact that there's, youknow, work pressures, family
(09:51):
pressures, or even maybe toomuch alcohol. Sometimes could be
all three, potentially. But Idefinitely think that habit of
removing technology before. Allgoing to bed, actually, for the
fact of having better time withmy wife and being a bit more
present. I think the only areaof my life, I say it now only
that's a bad word to use. One ofthe areas of my life is to be a
(10:12):
bit more present with my wife.And I think technology is a real
sort of challenge, and I'd liketo manage that better, and I
think the benefits would bephenomenal. So I'm probably on
that journey. I don't think I'venailed it yet, so sorry if I'm
gonna answer your questioncompletely.
Chris Hatfield (10:26):
That's fine.
Matt Best (10:27):
Slight variation of that, and I heard this recently
from somebody I forget exactlywhere, but talking about the
disconnect of work and home lifein this sort of modern world we
find ourselves living in, and alot of us working from home.
Because I know when we first metover video conference, you were
in your home office, Johnny, wespend a lot of time in well, we
(10:48):
spend a lot of time, I see you alot of time in your home office
when I'm in mine. And I think itsort of links, I think, to what
both of you are saying, which isaround this, the ability to kind
of disconnect, properly,disconnect from work. And this
thing, I'll call it a thing,because I forget whether it was
a video or whether it was aconversation or pop from a
podcast, but talked about havinga trigger for putting, for
(11:11):
breaking the chain between thosetwo environments. And I think,
actually, I see a lot of peoplewho are sort of, we're blurring
those two environments, myselfincluded, of okay, I'm just
going to leave my office, butI'm going to take my office, but
I'm going to take my laptop meso I can just finish an email
while the kids are eating theirdinner. And I'm like, talk about
kind of reconnecting with thefamily and having that, that
sort of isolation. I mean, Iused to have an hour and a half
(11:31):
on the train to find that time,and now I have 30 seconds
between leaving the door andlanding in the kitchen, and I
think that's really, reallyimportant to so for me, it's for
myself. But also, as I see inothers, it's having the ability
to go, Okay, well, that's sortof, let's shut the lid. What's
that thing that trigger that'sgoing to stop it, that's going
to disconnect me from from work,me into family, me so I can
(11:54):
properly be present. So Islightly stolen your points, but
I think that that thing'sparticularly important. Yeah, I
don't know if you've got anythoughts.
Chris Hatfield (12:01):
Well, I've got a couple of things, and probably
even one of the tools, actually,we talked about the start to use
that, which can help withswitching off. But it's linked
to something Starbucks did astudy a few years ago. I think
it was called the third place orthird space study, as to why the
most popular reason they go totheir coffee shops. And it was
actually that transition fromgoing from work to to home,
people see it as a way. That'swhy most people go to a coffee
(12:23):
shop on the way. That's why mostpeople will say, let's meet a
coffee shop. Not just because ofcoffee, but it's that kind of
break in between, and that'swhat a lot of people have lost
with working from home, is thatdivide, particularly when you
don't have the luxury of a homeoffice. And you know, I've
worked with salespeople thatmight have particularly during
covid, who were sort of in ahouse share, for example, and
all sharing a living room andnot having that luxury in your
(12:45):
brain, then finds it verydifficult to go hang on. We were
working in here today, and nowI'm meant to be chilling out,
but I'm starting to have thesecore memories of, well, you
know, I'm here for this reason,so how can I switch off from
that? So something that Iencourage people do is what I
call it the brain dump exercise.So the biggest challenge I find
is that people are so busy intheir day they don't have time
(13:07):
to reflect on it. And often it'snot until we go to bed that we
sort of unwind due totechnology, and that's when all
those thoughts come through, andthat can often be the reason why
people struggle to sleep. It's abit like being in a CGI film.
You do all this green screenstuff, and you're like, hang on.
Like, hang on, I don't reallymake sense of it until I watch
it back at the end. So the ideabehind the brain dump is it's
(13:28):
four quadrants. You do this atyour end of your day, like just
before you're finishing wrappingup, and you can spend five
minutes on it, 1015, and there'sfour quadrants, there's pending,
there's um, wins, challenges,solutions. So pending is you
brain dump everything that youthink your brain is going to
think about for the next day. Orif it's a Friday next week, even
(13:49):
if you've got it in yourcalendar, go, what is it
something is going to pop up?I've got, I've got to send this
email. I've got to speak to thisperson. I've got to book a
plumber like it doesn't justhave to be work related. Get it
all down. Wins is, what have Idone well today or even this
week, if you're doing at the endof the week, and not just what
has happened? Because if you saythat, you'll often focus on the
things you haven't controlledwhat have. And then the
(14:10):
challenges is, rather than justgoing, Oh, it's been a really
stressful day or wasn'tproductive, what made it that
like? What was the tangiblething? I got caught up in
emails. I got caught intomeetings. I said yes to
something that actually took twohours longer than I thought it
would be. And then solutions,what can I do tomorrow or next
week that's going to mitigatethat actually check how urgent
something is, or close my emailsdown when I'm making calls. So
(14:33):
the idea is, you're left withthis brain dump at the end of
the day. The pendingpsychologically means, and
subconsciously, your brainthinks, Oh, we're not going to
forget it, because it's writtendown. And anyone listening to
this with kids will realizelike, when you write something
down, when you put it on thefridge, when give kids
timetables, their anxietyreduces. And we're no different
as adults like you write itdown, it says, Hey, we're not
going to forget about this,because your brain is then like,
(14:54):
well, I need to think about it,and I need to keep it top of
mind. And then when you do that,your primal brain switches on
and goes. Need to solve it rightnow. So the pending solves that.
The wins allows for that selfreflection. It's not always
obvious. It gives you thatimmediate sort of gratification
in a different way. Challengesdoesn't just keep you stuck at
that level of who was stressfulas unproductive it was. Here's
what the reasons were, and thensolutions are right? I can go
(15:17):
into my evening knowing I'mgoing to do something about this
tomorrow or next week.
Jonny Adams (15:22):
And thank you, Chris, because last week I was
feeling super overwhelmed, andto a point it got to Friday, and
I was like, I could do thiswhole week again. And and, you
know, we work closely, right? Ican see when you're overwhelmed
and I'm overwhelmed, and I'msurely the same has arisen for
you. And I wrote a list down. Itwas a list this time, not in the
quadrants, but I was able to usethe trigger, shut the shut the
(15:44):
lid, wrote the list. And Iremember then I was able to
unpack and spend some time mywife and actually enjoyed the
weekend and just chisel away atthat list on Monday. But I love
the quadrants, I think becauseI, like most of us, like write a
to do list, and they always seemto, like, cross off the top
thing, because you're like, yes,I've done one. It's that kind of
thing. You just note down thewins and the pending actions.
(16:05):
Thank you.
Chris Hatfield (16:05):
Yeah. And it reduces the chance of those
Sunday scaries from coming,because most people go, I'll
plan my week on a Sunday, andI'm always like, how can you
become more efficient and nothaving to use your weekend?
We'll do it on Friday, becauseeverything will be fresh in your
mind, and you'll also recognizewhat's worked that week and what
hasn't to allow you to go in,and then you can always look at
it. When your brain pops up overthe weekend, going, Oh, what
about this? Well, let's have alook. Okay, we've got it. It's
(16:27):
okay.
Jonny Adams (16:28):
Love it.
Matt Best (16:29):
Yeah, I think that's brilliant. I've definitely got
much less sophisticated waysthat I think I sort of do some
of that, like you journey withto do lists. I'm a very to do
list type person. It's quite anorganized to do list. But I
think just having that, the thethe variety of different things
that that picks on all of thosepoints, not just activities led,
but thinking about how you'refeeling and celebrating those
(16:52):
successes, which is somethingaround our dinner table every
well, I say every evening, kidsaren't always at home for
dinner, but that question of,you know, what was good in our
day? Like so we asked oneanother what was good in our
day? And it challenges us all tosort of think about something
that was that could have puts asmile on your face, as opposed
to sitting down at the tablegoing well, that was a rubbish
way to do this, or that was aterrible day, or I had this, or
(17:12):
I had that, and it's just yeah.So I love that.
Chris Hatfield (17:16):
Yeah, I think you owe it to yourself. You
know, on a day, if you'respending 810, 12 hours of work
or a week, 7080, 90 hours. Youowe it to yourself to recognize
where that's got you, you know.Imagine if you were building a
house for 70 or 80 hours a weekand you didn't look at it. You
know. Imagine if you you wereclimbing a mountain and you
never turn around to actuallyacknowledge the the distance
you've come is like, the pointof that is not, it's not trying
(17:38):
to create toxic positivity.Where you're you're saying, oh,
everything's fine. I'm going toignore the challenges. They're
there already, but these are thethings that you don't or aren't
always aware of, and it'sproviding more of a balance,
like neutral thinking, ratherthan trying to create this toxic
positivity thinking.
Matt Best (17:52):
Yeah, so, you know, obviously sales, sales psyche,
and getting into the kind ofpsychology of sales success,
and, you know, you're sharingthere just some, some sort of
tools, techniques and kind offrameworks, and I'm sure, you
know, the 3037, that are in thebook, if you had to, sort of, if
we, if we kind of transition tothe problem as it were, like,
(18:14):
what? What do you think of thetwo to three things related to a
sales person's mindset thatcould potentially threaten their
performance and well being?
Chris Hatfield (18:22):
Yeah, I'll headline the three, and then
feel free if you want to pickit. Which ones I think self
talk. Yeah, I think how youperceive emotions and your
comfort zone or labeling yourcomfort zone. Those are the
three. Where do you want tostart?
Jonny Adams (18:36):
I want to go down the middle to start off with. So
perceive emotions and describewhat that meant. Could you give
me a context of what that means,or maybe an example, because now
I think help me unpack that alittle bit more.
Chris Hatfield (18:48):
Yeah, well, for example, when you're feeling
stressed, say you get an emailcome in, or a call doesn't go to
plan, or you talked aboutfeeling overwhelmed, is how you
perceive that feeling. A lot ofpeople can see as I'm fighting
against this, why am I feelingstressed again? Why am I feeling
so anxious? Why am I feelingnervous about this presentation,
like frustrated by it, and, youknow, beating yourself hump over
(19:12):
it, which, of course, kind ofcouples of self talk, but can
lead you down that path ofsticking there, ruining your
day, ruining your week, and tothe point of the brain dump. Not
doing that means you're thenjust going to focus going to
focus on all the negativethings. And Deloitte released a
study a few years ago where theysaid, we've labeled pretty about
25 core emotions, but we've got15,000 combinations we can feel.
(19:32):
So the problem there is you canoften be mislabeling emotions as
well. And it's very easy to godown the assumption that, oh,
this is anxiety, this is stress.And then you then your habitual
brain will go well every time wefeel like this. This must be us
being anxious. Then this must bestress. And the other problem
with this is how you perceiveemotion. So if you perceive
stress as a negative emotion,you'll get more stressed about
(19:54):
being stressed. If you perceiveit as a positive emotion, you
might try and put yourself intomore stressful situations. But.
As you think, I thrive offstress. I need deadlines, but
that can lead to burnoutquicker. Yeah? An example I use
here, either of you like rollercoasters?
Matt Best (20:08):
If I feel strapped in.
Chris Hatfield (20:10):
Ok, so on the fence.
Jonny Adams (20:11):
You know, I like, I do like, weirdly, pleasure, the
rickety wooden ones, yeah, Iremember in America where you
don't feel like you're strappedin and at the end if it you go,
oh thank God I finished that.
Matt Best (20:26):
I can't do those where I feel like I've been in a
fight with Anthony Johnson.
Jonny Adams (20:30):
Oh, you'd win.
Chris Hatfield (20:31):
So I enjoy them. I wouldn't ask you to visualize
this too much, but imagine wewent on a roller coaster
together. We'd both go round. Wewould both feel the same thing,
like we wouldn't be able tothink straight. Probably have
sweaty palms. We'd have 1000thoughts going on, but our
perception of that feeling wouldbe different. I'd see it as I
want to do it again. You'd belike, get me off of this thing.
And that's the thing here. Thereis no such thing as a good or
(20:51):
bad emotion. There is only agood or bad perception or
reaction or response to anemotion. All emotions are
signals, you know, like thesmoke alarm going off in the
house, not saying the house ison fire, yet it's what we do as
a result that can then turn itinto an almost self fulfilling
prophecy. You know when you feela question I asked someone want
to run the other week was, whichis one emotion you wish you
(21:13):
could never feel again. Theysaid anxiety. And I said, how
would that negatively impactyou? Imagine never anxious about
any presentations. Imagine youwere never anxious about what
you would say to someone.Imagine you were never anxious
about how you planned your day.What could be the impact there?
And I'm like, well, I might saysomething I regret, or maybe I
wouldn't plan for apresentation. And that's the
thing here. Like, you know, whenwe have perceptions of emotions
(21:34):
like that, we don't we losesight of the benefits of them.
Jonny Adams (21:37):
It's really interesting. You say, sorry for
butting in. It resonates with apart of our jobs. The three of
us are standing up anddelivering some type of insight
to professional individuals. Iknow my worst performance in the
last five years is where I gotmyself into a position of
feeling like I was absolutelyfine at doing what I was doing.
I didn't enable whether it wasanxiety or the pressure, I
(21:58):
didn't I just suppressed it onpurpose. I was like, I'll find
I'll fly in. I've done it forfor four and a half years, or
whatever it was, turned up theworst delivery I've ever done in
my life. And from that moment,I've always said to myself, I've
got to allow this, whatever itis, because I'm finding it hard
now to label it, because there'sabout 15,000 odd options there,
but I've got allowed to justdeal with it, because I know
(22:19):
when I do enable that thing, andI stand up. That's my best
delivery. You know, I have totackle that, although I don't
want it there. So that was agood lesson learned. I didn't
want it. I didn't allow it toarise. It wasn't very good
delivery. Now, I just allow it,and I have to deal with it.
Chris Hatfield (22:33):
Well, it's it's even changing. We'll come to
self talk shortly, but even thesame way of, for example, being
thirsty. Imagine if you didn'tknow water was the answer to
being thirsty, it would be aterrifying experience. You'd be
like, hang on. My mouth'sgetting drier. I'm getting a
headache. I feel dizzy. This isquite scary, but we don't have
that reaction to thirst. And I'mtalking from a first world
country here. Of course, I'm nottaking for granted that people
(22:54):
in the world, but often wedon't. We think, Okay, well, I'm
just gonna get some water. Wesee as a very clear response. So
the same with hunger as well.But imagine you think you'd
never tell yourself, Oh, I hopeI never get hungry again, or
never get thirsty again, ornever get cold again, or never
get sad again. Is you? He's notsaying you want these feelings,
but you know they're part ofbeing human, and you also know
(23:15):
there's a quick solution orsomething that you can go about
doing it, and that's often whenwe look at other feelings, like
anxiety. Why people can struggleso much, because people aren't
educated on how to deal with iteffectively. So that's why it
can be such a Oh, god. What do Ido with this feeling? And I
still get anxious about things,but now that I change the
response to, what are you tryingto tell me, versus Why is this
happening to me? Like, what'sthe signal here? What is it I'm
(23:38):
feeling anxious about? And onceyou change those to constructive
questions and your self talk,which we can come into, sort of
marries in nicely to this ofgoing, how am I speaking to
myself in a way I'd want someoneelse speak to me? Or would I
would speak to someone else? Ifsomeone else was saying, Why are
you so anxious about this? Wouldthat make me feel more or less
anxious? Probably more so what'sa more constructive thing?
(24:00):
What's an empathetic thing if Iwas sitting down with someone?
And one thing I always encouragepeople to do with their self
talk, or whether it's impostersyndrome or about people around
no attachment styles, is give ita name. Give it a human name. So
treat it like it was a person. Iwas working with someone
recently, and they labeledtheirs James. So they went to
uni with a guy called James, andJames was a guy that was
(24:20):
incredibly anxious. Every timethey suggested something, James
would would share something, go,what if this goes wrong? What if
this happens? And all they didover the years was just sit down
with James and listen and thensort of reassure him. They
didn't Judge James because theythought, Well, James is only
going to feel more anxious.However we judge them, he's just
going to bowl it up and it willcome out in other ways. And
that's the one of the mosteffective things you can do, is
(24:42):
think about, how can I observemy thoughts rather than judge
them as much? And when I observethem, I can then listen to them
and going, what are you tryingto tell me? And now I'm going,
Ah, I'm anxious that maybe if wetake a presentation, for
example, public speaking, whichmost people can relate to, I'm
anxious they'll ask a question Idon't know the answer to. I'm
anxious if it's a pitch that.Throw out a objection I can't
handle. I'm anxious thatthere'll be people in the room I
(25:04):
haven't met yet. Okay, what'sone or two things within my
control I can do to reduce thechances that are happening. I
can preempt that objection. Ican plan for that question, or
ask someone else. I can researchthose people, or ask my contact,
like, how would How do thesepeople best receive information?
And then I go into that, andthen I'm like, actually, do you
know what if I didn't do that,if I didn't feel like that, I
(25:25):
probably wouldn't have preemptedthat objection, I wouldn't have
answered that question. So Ileave it going. I'm actually
grateful for that feeling, andnot in a toxic positivity way
again, but in a way of next timeit shows up and then, like, Ah,
here you go. Here's your signal.What is it trying to tell me?
Matt Best (25:38):
I think what you just shared there, Chris, which is
that listen to your ownthoughts, because I think so
often people we I say we onlyare talking for everybody here,
but if I think about me, andactually, if I think about some
of the people that we work with,Johnny as well, is that we're
encouraging them to think aboutand to translate it into
something productive, right toyour point, we don't want just
blind positivity, because itdoesn't help us in any way, but
(26:00):
to turn it into kind ofproductive self talk, well,
actually, I think there's a bitin between that you just shared
there, which is, we got tolisten to it first, yeah, so
that we can unpick it, so thatwe can translate it, rather than
just saying, I'm going to takethat word and directly translate
it to this word, and then tryand convince myself that that's
the thing. So I think that'sreally important, like, so if I,
(26:21):
I guess, if I think about theaudience and the people
listening to this podcast, ifyou're out there, and you're an
individual contributor, andyou're, you know, in your first
18 months in the sales role, andyou're thinking, I've got my
first like, big pitch, what am Igoing to do, having that,
listening to that, those thosethoughts, listening to your own
thoughts and your own Perhapsdestructive self talk before you
(26:41):
kind of jump into turning itaround, makes it maybe more
likely that you'll believe it.
Chris Hatfield (26:46):
And there's another surprise tool for this
that I use, called notice it.Name it, neutralize it. So
notice it. Notice and this iswhere you want to become more
familiar with your triggers,your physiological triggers as
well, because you'll start tonotice your physiological
triggers will be there beforeyour thoughts are they'll often
be your sign. So for example, Istarted to realize I started
tapping my leg or, like,clenching my fist if I was
(27:09):
starting to feel anxious, so Iknew that was a sign of, ah, I'm
going to start feeling orthinking a certain way, just
bringing that awareness in thesame way you might be like, Oh,
I'm going outside. I might startfeeling cold. So I don't need to
panic, because if I do, I know Ineed to put a jumper on, rather
than a helm. Why am I feelinglike this? Well, obviously, I'm
outside with just a t shirt on,so it's going to be cold. So
(27:29):
it's noticing it. It's thennoticing it from an observer
point of view. Ah, rather thanwhy is Why am I feeling anxious
again? Is, for example, why youcall my self talk Christian? So
I'll be like, Oh, Christian'shaving this thought again, or
Christians thinking about thisagain in a very neutral way, not
in a positive way, because,again, I've got a bit of a
problem with positive thinking,because it's almost just trying
(27:49):
to convince yourself to think adifferent way. And your brain
then goes, let's be honest, noteverything does end up
positively. It then goes, See,told you, so we should have
thought negatively. It's likewhen someone says, just be
confident. Oh, okay, yeah, ordon't worry. Or calm down anyone
listening says, Have you eversaid calm down someone? Has it
ever had a benefit? No, it has.It has the opposite effect, and
we all regret saying it. Evenwhen you say in the best
(28:11):
intentions, it doesn't help thesituation. So notice it. Name
it. So name those thoughts. Andwhenever you're doing this
exercise, which I wouldencourage people to do
proactively, because any toolyou practice proactively, the
more likely you're going to useit reactively, and the less
likely you'll need itreactively. But practicing
writing it down on paper,because going back to that list,
(28:32):
example, when we write we haveto use the rational part of our
brain. We disrupt that amygdala,that amygdala hijack, which is
often where those irrationalthoughts and feelings sit, and
because it forces us to bepresent, we can all probably
touch type here. If you try andwrite without looking, it
doesn't end well. So you'rehaving to force yourself to
focus. So you're writing thosethoughts. Christian is thinking
this, this is going to go wrong.What if this happens? What if
(28:55):
this happens? This is where youget into those negative what ifs
then the neutralize it part. Youcan go two ways here. So if
you're thinking about a futuresituation, a presentation, a
meeting, a call, anything, youknow, even outside of work, it
could be meeting the in laws forthe first time, for example, is
going two questions, whateverthose thoughts are, what's the
(29:16):
biggest what are the biggest twoor three reasons? I'm thinking
that might happen. So Robin'sgoing, I'm anxious this is going
to go wrong. What are the two orthree biggest reasons? Are you
reasons I use that example thereof presenting question,
Objection, and then what are oneor two things are in my control
I can do to reduce the chanceit's not stop them, because I'm
going to be realistic here, butI can reduce them. Okay, here's
one or two actions, and whatI've done there, I've given
(29:37):
myself some tangible things tofocus on, and often that's all
we need in a situation, isn't toknow that it's going to be
everything's going to be fine,but to know we've got some
influence within that controlthat will often reduce your
anxiety and stress and goingback to overwhelm. Overwhelm is
often a breakdown of thoughts,not always of life, and it's
often where you've been thinkingtoo much about things, when you
(29:58):
can actually bring it back tohear something in the process.
And that I can do, I feel lessoverwhelmed by it, and that's a
byproduct of a list. So that'sthe neutralized part. There's
another one which I can go into,which is where maybe you're
overthinking a conversationyou've had of a manager, or
you're thinking, Oh, that emailis a bit short. They're annoyed
of me. Or Hang on, that personhasn't texted me back yet. I've
done something wrong. And thisis where you want to imagine
(30:20):
your brain is like a courtroom.You've got the prosecution
throwing out all thoseaccusations. They don't respect
you. They think this of you. Youmight have people fold their
arms sitting there, you know,when they're when you're
presenting or afterwards,thinking they didn't ask many
questions. Maybe they didn'tenjoy it. So then you want to go
defense in the courtroom, Whereis the evidence that that
thought is true or false? Whatelse could be true in this
(30:40):
situation, and if I knew thatthought, other thought were
true, how would I think or feeldifferently about this?
Matt Best (30:45):
That's brilliant. Again, that's, I think that's
really, really important tothink and a lot of this, I'm
thinking in terms of the it'sapplication, Chris is, I mean,
obviously it's not just in insales. And a lot of this can
relate to, you know, you can,I'm sure. Again, people
listening to this are recalling,perhaps a meeting that didn't go
quite as they planned. Andthey're thinking, oh yeah, maybe
(31:06):
if I take that same courtroomapproach, that might help we
sort of reflect on it, but alsoin any kind of job, in just in
life in general, right? This issuper helpful way of handling
some of these challenges.
Jonny Adams (31:16):
And there was a third, wasn't there? You said
comfort zoning was the third. Isthat? Right? What's the...
Chris Hatfield (31:21):
Well I think the problem I have with the comfort
zone is, is how it's labeled,is, if it was so comfortable,
why is everyone trying to leaveit? You know, if this was a nice
thing, why are so many peopletalking about leaving it all the
time? If you said, I'm in thisrelationship, I really want to
get out of it, because I soundsa bit toxic to me, like, doesn't
sound like a good relationship,if everyone's telling you to
leave it. And I think there's afew problems that come from the
(31:42):
comfort zone. Is you thenperceive everything outside of
it is going to be uncomfortable.Going back to labeling, our
brains are very black and white,and they're thinking is, you
know, if I think that I'm I'mdon't feel motivated today, I
can assume I'm unmotivated, or Idon't feel happy. I can assume
I'm sad. But, of course, there'sa lot of gray in between. But
when you have a perception thatthings are going to be
uncomfortable, either A, you'llprocrastinate on doing it. B,
(32:04):
you won't do it, or C, you gointo it with a negative
headspace, and can create a selffulfilling prophecy, almost
being like, Well, I told you,so, you know, I told myself so
that I wasn't going to be goodat that, or it wasn't going to
be good. And it's then also,when you do start going outside
of it, you then start going, Oh,this is a nice, comfortable
thing I can go back to, so itseems a bit easier to kind of
revert back to and maybe notpush through and build that
(32:26):
resilience as well. So my sortof perspective on this is it's
more of a familiar zone, ratherthan a comfort zone, is that you
don't become more comfortablewith something. You become more
familiar with it. Like amarathon runner doesn't become
more comfortable with hittingthat wall. They become more
familiar with the feeling behindit. That person going to the gym
doesn't become more comfortablewith lifting weights. They
(32:46):
become more familiar with how todo it and familiar with the
feelings afterwards. If youthink about anything you do, you
don't become more comfortablewith it. You become more
familiar with it. And the ideabehind that is you then start
looking at everything outside ofwhat you're familiar with is not
uncomfortable, but unfamiliar,which straight away, doesn't say
to your brain, this is going tobe scary, this is going to be
painful, this is going to besomething all just unfamiliar.
(33:08):
And I'm being unfamiliar withsomething can breed curiosity
and go actually, I'm curious tobecome more familiar with this,
and the more familiar I becomesomething, ironically, I didn't
become more comfortable with it.Yeah. But looking at it that
way, just that labeling in yourbrain allows you to kind of go
in with more curiosity, ratherthan sort of thinking, Oh God,
this is going to be tense. I'mgoing to struggle here.
Jonny Adams (33:29):
And it promotes the idea of habits again, right? You
know, to get from familiar tounfamiliar, then to get to the
familiar again, then you'd haveto form some type of productive
habit, or maybe unproductive,but you're going to get familiar
to a point, right? So that'sgoing to take habits. I like
that. I like the challenge,because the way that I've seen
comfort zones articulated beforeis comfort zone, stretch zone
(33:51):
and panic zone, and then youoverlay this sort of classic.
You know, if we said, let's allgo for a 5k or you'll be fine,
Chris, because you're you'rerunning. But then if I said,
Let's do half, no, the halfmarathon, 56k that stretch zone
and then panic zone is the halfmarathon, right? Is the again,
not for you, but you'll beabsolutely fine. But yeah,
that's how I've heard it. But Ireally like the flip on that and
(34:13):
the lag. And it goes back tothat, how words create pictures
and feelings in your head. Soyou know the spin on using
familiar, familiar andunfamiliar, when you think about
that, how that promptedcuriosity, but how that changes
your emotions inside you a lot,how words are so powerful,
aren't they? That's what I'mhearing from you today.
Chris Hatfield (34:31):
Yeah, and even coupling that we've touched on
self talk a little bit, but youmentioned earlier on, like
something I have to get betterwith that feeling is even just
being conscious of one of thesimplest things that I encourage
people to think about is eventhose little words, like, should
have need, when you think aboutit, everyone could probably
relate to this. Listening tothis, you've been in a job,
relationship, friendship,somewhere where you've had
(34:53):
someone micromanaging. You'regoing you need to do more of
this. You should do this. Youhave to do this. And we hate it.
We hate demands, but we put iton ourselves every day. I.
Should work out more. I have toeat healthier. I need to do
this. And that's what a lot ofpeople do, particularly for New
Year's resolutions, which is whyit fails you tell yourself this
so much, you then end up selfsabotaging, because your brain
(35:14):
goes, well, you're an adult. Ordo I want? Or it's then, like,
you know, I need to thatjudgment when you don't. So even
just changing it to I want to,or get to, like, I want to work
on this. I don't need to. I wantto, because choice. I get to, I
get to go for a run today. Iwant to become more mindful of
how I eat. I want to become moreconscious of how much I
exercise. I want to become morefamiliar with this feeling I get
(35:34):
before public speaking.
Jonny Adams (35:36):
That's, that's just...Thank you.
Matt Best (35:38):
Chris, thank you so much for joining us, and to
everyone listening, join us forpart two as we continue this conversation.
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