November 14, 2024 • 22 mins
In this follow-up episode, we continue our conversation with Chris Hatfield, founder of Sales Psyche. Chris breaks down common myths about motivation, explaining why leaders should focus less on motivating their teams and more on inspiring them. He explores how habits and action can drive motivation, the importance of understanding individual aspirations, and how vulnerability can build trust in leadership. With a mix of practical tools and deep insights, Chris highlights ways to create a productive, growth-oriented environment for both leaders and sales teams.
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Episode Transcript
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Matt Best (00:00):
Welcome back. We're here to continue our
(00:01):
conversation with Chris Hatfieldfrom Sales Psyche.
Jonny Adams (00:05):
There's been a great conversation with as we've
explored sort of growth andleadership, how important that
is to businesses, right? We wespeak to a lot of our guests
about, you know, leadership andthe importance and actually, how
if leadership isn't thriving oroptimized, it can actually be
the demise of an organization.But in talking about growth, we
sort of see leaders often focuson motivation. Yeah, really, as
(00:26):
you sort of say, right, come on,guys, let's get going. But
you've got a different slant onthat. You've got a different
view about leaders andmotivation. Is that correct?
Chris Hatfield (00:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Jonny Adams (00:34):
I'd love you to share that to the guests.
Chris Hatfield (00:36):
Yeah, I think there's, there's two or three
things. I think, first of all,it's addressing this, those kind
of three big myths I see aroundmotivation. The first is that
you should be able to get tothis place where you're
constantly motivated, which Idon't think is is healthy or
actually possible, because thisidea that you and people this is
often driven by your perceptionof other people online or
offline, or seeing people aroundyou being successful, and
(00:58):
thinking, God, they're soconstantly motivated. And even
you'll hear people who you mightperceive like this saying
they're not. Is that is thesepeople don't rely on motivation.
They rely on often, habits, butthey rely on creating motivation
through action. And thisperception of thinking I should
always be motivated, is adownfall for people, because
when you're not, you judgeyourself. When you are you then
(01:21):
you then wonder where it's gone.You're like, hang on, I was
super motivated last week. Supermotivated before I went to bed
last night. Why have I woken upand felt like this, which often
ironically takes you more awayfrom motivation, because you
feel demotivated as a result ofit. So the perception in itself,
it's the same with happiness, Ithink, is people see it as a
destination, whereas actually itcan come in waves. And Simon
(01:41):
Sinek talks about this surfermentality in a different
context, and I kind of use it ina different way, in that, you
know, some days you're riding awave, some days you're under
one, but wherever you are,you're not stuck there. And like
every good surfer knows, nomatter how good the wave is,
it's coming down at some point,not in a negative way. But I
need, I want to prepare myselffor this so I can catch the next
wave. And that's the thing aswell. With motivation, you're
(02:03):
going to have those waves sointeresting when you come down
from it, don't judge yourself,because the more you do that,
the longer you stay on thewater. Focus on, what did I do
to get there in the first place?What was I thinking, feeling and
doing? What's in my controlright now to catch the next one?
But don't then think, Oh, I justneed to wait for motivation.
Jonny Adams (02:20):
And I like this because it's important to be
quite human, is that whengrowing up, when I was in my
teenage years, like, I think asall if I may say that we did
things that weren't particularlythat good, right, embarrassing,
or we shouldn't have done that,and we got told off, and I
remember, I can't name the exactsituation, but to that point
about the surfing analogy, Iused to see it as a newspaper,
(02:41):
and I think because of myexpressive nature, I'd always
want to be at the front of thenewspaper. Hey, look at me. Hey,
look at us while we're doing apodcast. But, but that that
definitely was the way I used tolook at things in my head, maybe
not aligned to motivation, butthe way I used to see it was
that always want to get to thefront, but actually I'd probably
sit in the middle most of thetime. That's fine. I'm not not
seen. I'm not not seen, but whenthings are getting really I'm at
(03:02):
the back. That's fine, because Iknow where I am. I've just then
got to put my self with someactions to go forward and learn
how to get back forward. It justresonates with me when you're
describing that.
Chris Hatfield (03:11):
Yeah, and it's just making peace of it and
understanding that it's okay notto motivate all the time. You
know, the more you beat yourselfup about it, that's going to
make you move further away. Thesecond thing to focus on, which
I think is a myth. A lot ofpeople think I need to be
motivated to take action. Idon't feel motivated to make
calls today. I don't feelmotivated to do this home admin
task, whatever it might be, orpaint the walls or something.
(03:33):
You know, I don't feel motivatednow. I always ask people like,
if you go for a workout, if yougo to the gym, if you go for a
run, like, how do you feelafterwards? How do you feel
after you go for your walk, say,in the morning without a phone.
Jonny Adams (03:44):
I know how I feel. How much better my wife,
remarkably, says, I can tellyou've done some exercise this
week and you have thing, becauseyou're basically a nicer person.
Chris Hatfield (03:51):
Yeah, so the answer there is, you feel really
good at the end of it, like you.And that's the thing. Is,
motivation comes from action. Alot of people perceive I need
motivation to act, but actioncan spark motivation, and the
realization of that is it putsyou more in control of your own
motivation. And go, hang on.This is something I can
influence. I'm not at the mercyof. If I didn't wake up today,
(04:13):
motivate. That's okay becauseI've been asleep for eight
hours. Like, yes, I can wake upsome days and, you know, but
some days I can't. And that'salright, but it's then going,
What can I do to sparkmotivation, rather than I don't
feel motivated? Is, what can Ido right now? I could go for a
walk, I could put on a playlist,I could speak to someone I know
is going to get me into a goodheadspace.
Jonny Adams (04:32):
And thinking about that, it's helpful from a sort
of self service perspective, ifyou're a leader listening to
this in a growth environment.What? What what are some of the
things that you could do toencourage your people not to
stay motivated, but to managethis situation? Like, what would
you suggest?
Chris Hatfield (04:47):
Well I think the other thing here is that leaders
should focus less on, how do Imotivate my team, and more, how
do I inspire them? So, you know,you it's physically impossible
to motivate someone else,because the idea, as well, the
problems that come from that isyou can. Make people overly
dependent on you. And then ifyou're on holiday, or the team
gets bigger, they have less timewith you. Then they start going,
Oh, you've, you've because theyrely on you so much, they start
(05:10):
sort of criticizing you more,going, Well, why do you have as
much time for me as well? Theteam's gone from five to 20, and
when you when they leave,they'll then realize, oh,
actually, like, hang on, Ihaven't built any tools here the
tools. So I think the biggestthing that a manager can help
with this is, first of all,better understanding what your
team's aspirations are. We talka lot about motivation, but
inspiration and aspiration oftenget overlooked. Is like, what
(05:31):
are you trying to build towards?And the analogy often use here.
If you're going past a buildingsite, we'll get curious. Don't
we have what they building? Thisperson's walking past one day,
and he asked the first person hesees, and I'm playing bricks,
and he goes, don't know whatthat pretty means. Next person
building a wall. Okay, don'treally understand. Goes along
site managers there, what areyou building? They say, we're
building a hospital. Now, Ioften ask people, what's the
(05:54):
most important thing there? It'sa bit of a trick question,
because they all are but it'squite an interesting question to
ask people, because some peoplego the bricks, some people go to
hospital. Hang on, if you'refocusing on if you're focusing
on the hospital, who's going tobuild it, focusing on the
bricks? Which way are you goingif you're not focusing on the
walls? That's a big gap inbetween. And what you want to
look at is, do you understandyour team's hospital, their own
individual one, and encouragingthem not just have one, because
(06:16):
you don't want them to put alltheir identity. What are they
trying to build towards? Haveyou helped them identify their
walls along the way, becauselaying a brick and building
hospital are two big thingsapart. And then have you helped
them understand what the habitswould be the bricks each day to
be able to get there? Becausethen once you understand
someone's hospital, you thenknow what was inspiring them, or
how to inspire them, and youknow what kind of conversations
(06:38):
to have with them going You saidyou wanted to work towards this,
like, what have you done thisweek around that? Or what can I
do to support you here? Or whenthey're maybe feeling a bit off,
is going, what's what's changed?Is this something you still want
to achieve?
Matt Best (06:49):
And it talks right to you know, what good leadership,
if I think about what goodleadership is, is coaching, is
helping someone like that, likeyou said, the inspiration,
asking questions to drive that,that thought and understanding
what it is that somebody needs,rather than saying, Okay, well,
yeah, I need to motivate you. SoI'm gonna carry you to your
(07:11):
point. Because then, when you'vegot your hands full of everybody
and you need to put some peopledown, they feel dropped, versus
being able to say, actually, Ineed to help. I'm sort of right
behind you, just giving younudges, just reminding you of
the important things.
Chris Hatfield (07:26):
Yeah, exactly. It's it's going and some leaders
struggle with this because theythen think, hang on, this is
where their own self tool comesin. Are they going to think less
of me if I'm not giving them ananswer? Are they going to think
I'm not giving them a support?Am I? Am I going to look like
I'm not leading, if I'm notdoing for people, or...
Matt Best (07:43):
Am I going to frustrate them by not giving
them an answer? I think a lot ofleaders think by asking great
coaching questions and coachingsomeone in that way and really
helping inspire them, as you saythat you're just sort of taking
the easy road and not answeringa question, so you're actually
frustrating the person who'sjust asking for support.
Chris Hatfield (07:59):
Yeah, I think there is, again, it's sometimes
people go into this black orwhite, thinking I even need to
ask really great questions, or Ineed to give them everything.
And it's at the start, almostimagining, like stabilizers is
going. How can I do a bit ofboth? How can I ask a question?
If I see someone who's getting abit frustrated or stressed, I
can give them a hint, and then Ican say, and what else do you
think? So, I might say, ask thema question. You know, how would
(08:20):
you go about this? You said youwanted to achieve this. What
would that look like for yourweek? Maybe this okay? And
here's something that worked forme based on that. What else do
you think could work for you andwhat else and what else? And
just kind of balancing the two,rather than thinking, I have to
go down this route, becausethat's where some people
struggle with they go, have tobe a coach, and then your team's
getting really frustrated, andyou either abandon that and
(08:43):
think, Well, I'm not going totry that again, or you stick at
it and then you just frustratepeople in your teams. They never
come to you for any questions,because they just think, Oh,
he's just going to reverse itback to me all the time.
Matt Best (08:52):
Yeah. I mean, that's, again, a really, I think,
really, really powerful,important point there around
think about that kind of keytakeaway there of not trying to
motivate, but trying to inspire,I think, or might help a lot of
leaders in changing their kindof mindset or approach to that.
Jonny Adams (09:08):
Yeah, Chris, I'm interested, because a lot, a lot
what you talk about, a lot, whatyou author, a lot, what you
support your clients with, is,is like the turbocharged version
of, we do three parts to ourwork at SBR systems. So, you
know, what are your processes inyour organization to enable your
sales leadership, marketingleadership, sales effectiveness,
(09:30):
and marketing effectivenesswork, we talk a lot about the
skills naturally we've, youknow, we've got to be quite
skillful as professionals. Andwe also about, you know, the
mindset as well. So motivationyou talk about, you talk a lot
about unproductive thinkingpatterns at the moment, which
really black and white thinkingyou've talked about some others
today. I'm really curious if, ifwe had a panel of like, you
(09:52):
know, CROs in front of us,right? Do you how would you
think they index those threethings skills per. Processes,
systems and motivations to bethe thing that's going to drive
growth. What's their perceptionat the moment when you're
talking to CROs, is it? Do theydownplay the motivation? That's
(10:12):
what I'm probably biasing here alittle bit. Or where do you
think they think about things atmoment?
Chris Hatfield (10:16):
I think it's very easy again to look at the
tangible thing that's in frontof us, the skill we need to give
them more product training. Weneed to give them more objection
handling training. It's like,well, hang on, have you talked
about the objections in theirown head, the self talk? You
know, those blockers? Yeah,exactly. Great one. It's going
we need to give them timemanagement. What about how they
manage their energy? Like, Ikind of address this in the
(10:38):
book. Is, like, there's so muchof the foundation underneath
that, that this is built on, isyou can give, you know, in in
sales, in any environment, youknow, we're looking at
technology, we're giving peoplemore access to tools. And the
biggest tool you have is yourmind, and if you're not taking
care of it, then you're notgoing to be someone isn't going
to be able to fully sort ofequip themselves, or able to
take full group, full sort ofownership of the skill set side
(11:01):
of things, or the system side ofthings as well, because they've
got their own self talk andchallenges going on around it.
So I definitely think it issomething that it's, I wouldn't
say, like universal blanketapproach. There are certainly
more people now recognizing thevalue of it, but there's that
almost balance. Sometimes ofthinking, Oh, it's more of a
tick box exercise. Sometimes, ofwe just need to do this to make
(11:22):
them feel good. And it's like,okay, you know, you might make
them feel good in the moment,but then they're going to go
back and you're almost doingmore harm than good, because
they're like, we know why youdid that.
Jonny Adams (11:32):
Yeah. Well, I'm a massive advocate of it. I know
that some of your clients thatwe know of as well, I've spoken
to them, they that they raveabout you. They think you're
phenomenal, and clear you arebecause you've got a great
business. I just think about theimpact of wellbeing. And I work
with a financial wellbeingorganization, and I was like,
why on earth is financialwellbeing not one of the biggest
(11:54):
things that's spoken about inschool? It's just, let alone
actually wellbeing as a whole.So I think, you know, in
business, if we, you know, if wecan start to bring in some of
these ideas, I think it wouldjust be great for us, not only
at work, but also outside ofwork. And that's the impact,
isn't it? You can take thesetechniques out.
Matt Best (12:12):
Yeah. I've probably related more of what you've
talked about to outside of worktype situations. In my own life.
It's so, so important. As I saidbefore, it's not just about what
we do in here, but I think orwhat we do in our in our jobs,
but I think also is this is areal lever for success, and I'm
thinking about tying this rightthe way back from because I know
with the Run Club, it's aboutproviding that space to help
(12:33):
your mental well being. And howexercise is such a great not
just exercise. I know you talkmore about this, there's other
reasons why that works in the inrunning specifically, but also
just the impact that your healthand how you look after your
body, and how that impacts theway you can look after your
mind, and how it's all tiedtogether. And I think it's great
that we're getting more thatthis is a this is a more sort of
(12:57):
recognized conversation to behaving, I think. And I think the
more it gets into businesses,and more it gets into that kind
of psyche, and I'm notsuggesting that all businesses
should start, kind of run clubsand put gyms in the basement and
everything else, but actually,there's something to be said for
people in your teams feelinglike they've got the opportunity
to go. I just need to getoutside for a bit. I just need
(13:17):
to step away from my desk and goand, you know, and go and do
this I've just done. I've got100 calls to do today. I can't
just sit here and and back toback those otherwise I'm just
going to be completely shot.
Chris Hatfield (13:28):
Yeah, and that kind of ties into psychological
safety is knowing that there's acompany. You're not saying that
people can turn up as notthemselves every day and but
you're telling them, when theydo, they will feel safe to be
able to talk about it, andthey'll feel understood, and
they'll feel like, supported.That's the kind of key
difference here, around that andgoing that I do have that space
(13:48):
to go out from my desk, and Ifeel like I'm not going to get
judged, or other people aregonna be like, Oh, you're weak,
or this person always needs togo outside. Is it's normalized.
It's actually like, celebrated,oh, it's good that you got out.
Like, rather than, why'd youkeep leaving the office? Like,
why aren't you back at yourdesk?
Matt Best (14:04):
So the previous job, we used to have a Friday lunch
Run Club, and we'd always kindof go out for and I think it was
helped by the fact thatobviously this was pre covid
When we were all in the office.Was helped by the fact that we
were there was a group of us. Soit was almost like, hang on that
that you talk about normalizingit all of a sudden. That gives
other people who maybe didn'tfeel like they feel like they
had that freedom. And, you know,at the time, it was a group of
(14:27):
senior people in the businesswho were doing that right, like
we were, we were the leadershipteam, essentially. So again, you
then then people who werelooking around going, you know,
they've gone out and they'retaking that time, and they've
come back and they had theirlunch, and they're not
apologizing for for doing that.I think that's so important.
Jonny Adams (14:43):
Yeah, and then that psychological safety piece,
yeah, it's something that, whenwe, we do a lot with growth
officers and, you know, learningand development professionals or
CPOs, and you always hear like,the the growth officers that
push is just pushing them sohard. And I wonder, what's that?
Self talk, as you were talkingabout in their own head, which
means it's translating to theirindividual contributors and
(15:05):
their other leadership members.But then the CPO say, well,
we've got to remember aboutpsychological safety. And then
the Cgo or CROs, go, Nah, don'tworry about it. We've just got
to get going. So I think there'sa bit of friction that goes on
in businesses aboutpsychological safety. Have you
seen that?
Chris Hatfield (15:19):
Yeah, and I think, again, it's down to no
one's fault, but a lack ofeducation, understanding of the
value that that comes from it,first and foremost for the
individual. And you know howthey'll benefit from it, that
will then subsequently benefitthe business as a result. Yeah,
yeah. You know, it's like going,if you treat the person as the
person that they'll then, youknow, it's a bit like when say
(15:39):
Trust, the process is like,well, trust the person. Take
care of the person. They'll takecare of the process, and the
process will work. So if you'resaying one thing is a business,
trust the process, follow oursales process, well, give people
that space to feel supportedwithin it, and then they'll
trust the process. It needs towork both ways. And some
companies don't. They say, well,trust the process, but we don't
care about that kind of safetyside of things, it's the
(16:01):
process...
Jonny Adams (16:01):
We're going to hammer you forecast accuracy,
because now we can see it,because we've got a new process.
Yeah? Oh yeah, no, thanks. Mr.Boss, Mrs. Boss. I'm not going
to do that.
Chris Hatfield (16:09):
Yeah. But I think one thing like, because
I'm always conscious of podcastsor I had, what's this tangibly
mean? And I think one thing thatleaders and I see people
struggle with sometimes is theysee vulnerability and
accountability on opposingscales, and I will if the more
vulnerable I am, or the morelike we give people that
freedom, the less accountablethey're going to be. And that,
again, that could be black andwhite thinking in place. It's
(16:31):
not always the case. And I thinkthe best thing about
vulnerability is it buildsrelatability. And vulnerability
doesn't always have to be, oh,you know, I'm really struggling
today, and this is what's goingon. It can be coupled with guys,
do you know what? Actually, I'mhaving a bit of a I spoke to
this was a senior leader, and hehad a group of people on a on a
zoom, about 70 or 80 people.CRO, and you know, how is
(16:52):
everyone murmuring as he goes,guys, I'm having a really
stressful day. But you knowwhat? I'm going to go out for a
run at lunch, and this is goingto, like, really help me. I'm
gonna leave my phone in theoffice, and I'm gonna go for a
run, and the key one there,everyone else afterwards, you
know what? Me too, like, youknow, Oh, it didn't, it didn't
say, oh, everyone can just havethe day off. But that's the
thing, if, when you're beingvulnerable, if you can give
(17:13):
people an idea of, here's howyou here's how I can deal with
it the same time or not saying,here's an instant solution, but
here's something I'm going totry. Then you give people that
space and freedom to feel likeactually, I can. I'm allowed to
feel like this as well, not inthe way of I can just go and
moan about it or vent about itall week. But something like
that is still constructed totalk through, but talking
(17:34):
through it in a way of justgetting out there and then
finding something. And I thinksome leaders then go, I can't be
vulnerable. I can't be likethis. It's going well. Think
about your stories. You know,think about, I often say, like
your superhero origin story,like, because some people might
see you as this leader who islike, oh my god, they're so
confident, they're so calm. Islike, you won't like that all
the time. Tell people, hey,look, I used to struggle with
(17:56):
this, and this is how I dealwith it. And this kind of links
into resilience. Because I thinkone of the things that people
misunderstand resilience is thatit's not just about you, it's
about other people. You could bethe most resilient person. And
we'll take an example here.Let's say a business has had 40
people. They've cut 50% of theirstaff. They've got 20 now let's
say 10 people are have beenthere for a while. They think I
(18:17):
can handle this. I'm resilient.I'm fine. 10 people aren't those
10 people that aren't see thepeople that are fine, and go,
they're fine. Why am I not me?They then start, maybe starting
thinking negatively andworrying. And then you got 50%
your business that's creatingthis culture here that is then
going to start impacting theother 50% who were fine in the
first place, that are now in anenvironment that isn't the most
(18:37):
healthy. And maybe go, I don'twant to be in this environment.
I'm going to leave. So you canuse it's important to realize
how much that kind of collectiveresilience is important as well.
When you look at it in sport,you look at it and what's going
on in the world right now, thatkind of collective resilience is
what really gets peopletogether. So yes, you want to
take care of yourself, and Idon't like this, put your own
oxygen mask on first, because,again, it's a very reactive
(18:59):
thing that only happens often.When the plane's going down is
like, Well, how do you do it?How can you take care of
yourself before the plane'sgoing down? Is what I often say.
But then also think about thecollective so if you are a
leader or a senior person in theteam, and you deal with things
really well, don't forget toshare with people around you of
how you've got to that position.And here's what I used to
(19:19):
struggle, here's how I used toreact, and here's what I did to
get there, and here's how I seeit now.
Jonny Adams (19:24):
This has been one of the most thought provoking
conversations I've ever for along, long while. So thank you.
You're welcome. And the tangibletakeaways that you know, as I
say back, we resonate with thesesort of things, and not only
because of a business, becausewe do similar things and we come
from the same, you know,backgrounds in that respect, you
know, sports coaching was mybackground, you know, from sort
(19:44):
of learning these these models,it's just resonates. But
actually, I think sometimes Ihaven't given enough thought or
time to put into practice. So Ithink your book with all of
those frameworks will be thosethings where I'm going to go on
the Christmas list, please, andthen actually just take some
time. You know. A four boxmodel, rather than a, rather
than a list. You know,overwhelming happens on an awful
(20:04):
lot in my my year, you weresaying recently about, you know,
you get towards the end of theyear and, you know, the fumes
are...
Matt Best (20:12):
Annual Christmas burnout, yeah. Yeah. And I
completely agree, Johnny. And Ithink actually having those,
having those really practicalthings, Chris, for people to
sort of take away and and putinto practice. And I think
something we've heard over thelast few guests that we've had
on the podcast is around, Ithink patience and pace is so,
so important. With all of this,right? We can't fix this,
(20:34):
where's no fixing anythinganyway, but we can't enact all
of this stuff overnight. It's ajourney that we've got to go on
and for leaders thinking abouttheir teams, and for individuals
thinking about themselves, wegot to think about it that way,
right?
Chris Hatfield (20:47):
Yeah. Well, I think there's a balance here. I
think is being patient, butstill taking action within the
action. So some people will say,sometimes, when I talk about
things easier said than done,that's the biggest limiting
belief you can tell yourself,because as soon you say it's
easier said than done, you won'tdo it. No, yeah, exactly, yeah,
everything is easier said thandone, yes, but being patient
(21:07):
with something, giving yourselfthat compassion to go look the
tools I talked about today, andI talk about this in the book,
don't expect to master themstraight away. It's okay. Some
days you might forget to do thebrain dump. Some days you might
find it really frustrating, andthat's okay. Or the other tools,
I noticed they neutralize, butthat's the point is, use them
before you need them, like youdrink water before you're
(21:28):
dehydrated, you eat beforeyou're absolutely starving.
Like, do the same thing withthese kind of tools. Be patient
with them, but also then try andpractice that habitual practice
proactively. And go, yes, I wantto give myself time, but I still
want to be intentional withthis, to allow it to resonate.
Matt Best (21:45):
Intentional, yeah, I think intentional kind of sums
up a lot of what we've talkedabout today. So yeah, as Johnny
said, Chris, it's beenincredibly insightful. Thank you
so much for coming on the growthworkshop podcast and all the
very best with the book, I'msure it's gonna be a massive
success, based on what we'veheard today, and I very much
look forward to reading it.
Chris Hatfield (22:02):
You're welcome. Thanks for having me.
Jonny Adams (22:04):
Thanks, Chris.
Matt Best (22:04):
Cheers.
Welcome back. We're here to continue our
(00:01):
conversation with Chris Hatfieldfrom Sales Psyche.
Jonny Adams (00:05):
There's been a great conversation with as we've
explored sort of growth andleadership, how important that
is to businesses, right? We wespeak to a lot of our guests
about, you know, leadership andthe importance and actually, how
if leadership isn't thriving oroptimized, it can actually be
the demise of an organization.But in talking about growth, we
sort of see leaders often focuson motivation. Yeah, really, as
(00:26):
you sort of say, right, come on,guys, let's get going. But
you've got a different slant onthat. You've got a different
view about leaders andmotivation. Is that correct?
Chris Hatfield (00:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Jonny Adams (00:34):
I'd love you to share that to the guests.
Chris Hatfield (00:36):
Yeah, I think there's, there's two or three
things. I think, first of all,it's addressing this, those kind
of three big myths I see aroundmotivation. The first is that
you should be able to get tothis place where you're
constantly motivated, which Idon't think is is healthy or
actually possible, because thisidea that you and people this is
often driven by your perceptionof other people online or
offline, or seeing people aroundyou being successful, and
(00:58):
thinking, God, they're soconstantly motivated. And even
you'll hear people who you mightperceive like this saying
they're not. Is that is thesepeople don't rely on motivation.
They rely on often, habits, butthey rely on creating motivation
through action. And thisperception of thinking I should
always be motivated, is adownfall for people, because
when you're not, you judgeyourself. When you are you then
(01:21):
you then wonder where it's gone.You're like, hang on, I was
super motivated last week. Supermotivated before I went to bed
last night. Why have I woken upand felt like this, which often
ironically takes you more awayfrom motivation, because you
feel demotivated as a result ofit. So the perception in itself,
it's the same with happiness, Ithink, is people see it as a
destination, whereas actually itcan come in waves. And Simon
(01:41):
Sinek talks about this surfermentality in a different
context, and I kind of use it ina different way, in that, you
know, some days you're riding awave, some days you're under
one, but wherever you are,you're not stuck there. And like
every good surfer knows, nomatter how good the wave is,
it's coming down at some point,not in a negative way. But I
need, I want to prepare myselffor this so I can catch the next
wave. And that's the thing aswell. With motivation, you're
(02:03):
going to have those waves sointeresting when you come down
from it, don't judge yourself,because the more you do that,
the longer you stay on thewater. Focus on, what did I do
to get there in the first place?What was I thinking, feeling and
doing? What's in my controlright now to catch the next one?
But don't then think, Oh, I justneed to wait for motivation.
Jonny Adams (02:20):
And I like this because it's important to be
quite human, is that whengrowing up, when I was in my
teenage years, like, I think asall if I may say that we did
things that weren't particularlythat good, right, embarrassing,
or we shouldn't have done that,and we got told off, and I
remember, I can't name the exactsituation, but to that point
about the surfing analogy, Iused to see it as a newspaper,
(02:41):
and I think because of myexpressive nature, I'd always
want to be at the front of thenewspaper. Hey, look at me. Hey,
look at us while we're doing apodcast. But, but that that
definitely was the way I used tolook at things in my head, maybe
not aligned to motivation, butthe way I used to see it was
that always want to get to thefront, but actually I'd probably
sit in the middle most of thetime. That's fine. I'm not not
seen. I'm not not seen, but whenthings are getting really I'm at
(03:02):
the back. That's fine, because Iknow where I am. I've just then
got to put my self with someactions to go forward and learn
how to get back forward. It justresonates with me when you're
describing that.
Chris Hatfield (03:11):
Yeah, and it's just making peace of it and
understanding that it's okay notto motivate all the time. You
know, the more you beat yourselfup about it, that's going to
make you move further away. Thesecond thing to focus on, which
I think is a myth. A lot ofpeople think I need to be
motivated to take action. Idon't feel motivated to make
calls today. I don't feelmotivated to do this home admin
task, whatever it might be, orpaint the walls or something.
(03:33):
You know, I don't feel motivatednow. I always ask people like,
if you go for a workout, if yougo to the gym, if you go for a
run, like, how do you feelafterwards? How do you feel
after you go for your walk, say,in the morning without a phone.
Jonny Adams (03:44):
I know how I feel. How much better my wife,
remarkably, says, I can tellyou've done some exercise this
week and you have thing, becauseyou're basically a nicer person.
Chris Hatfield (03:51):
Yeah, so the answer there is, you feel really
good at the end of it, like you.And that's the thing. Is,
motivation comes from action. Alot of people perceive I need
motivation to act, but actioncan spark motivation, and the
realization of that is it putsyou more in control of your own
motivation. And go, hang on.This is something I can
influence. I'm not at the mercyof. If I didn't wake up today,
(04:13):
motivate. That's okay becauseI've been asleep for eight
hours. Like, yes, I can wake upsome days and, you know, but
some days I can't. And that'salright, but it's then going,
What can I do to sparkmotivation, rather than I don't
feel motivated? Is, what can Ido right now? I could go for a
walk, I could put on a playlist,I could speak to someone I know
is going to get me into a goodheadspace.
Jonny Adams (04:32):
And thinking about that, it's helpful from a sort
of self service perspective, ifyou're a leader listening to
this in a growth environment.What? What what are some of the
things that you could do toencourage your people not to
stay motivated, but to managethis situation? Like, what would
you suggest?
Chris Hatfield (04:47):
Well I think the other thing here is that leaders
should focus less on, how do Imotivate my team, and more, how
do I inspire them? So, you know,you it's physically impossible
to motivate someone else,because the idea, as well, the
problems that come from that isyou can. Make people overly
dependent on you. And then ifyou're on holiday, or the team
gets bigger, they have less timewith you. Then they start going,
Oh, you've, you've because theyrely on you so much, they start
(05:10):
sort of criticizing you more,going, Well, why do you have as
much time for me as well? Theteam's gone from five to 20, and
when you when they leave,they'll then realize, oh,
actually, like, hang on, Ihaven't built any tools here the
tools. So I think the biggestthing that a manager can help
with this is, first of all,better understanding what your
team's aspirations are. We talka lot about motivation, but
inspiration and aspiration oftenget overlooked. Is like, what
(05:31):
are you trying to build towards?And the analogy often use here.
If you're going past a buildingsite, we'll get curious. Don't
we have what they building? Thisperson's walking past one day,
and he asked the first person hesees, and I'm playing bricks,
and he goes, don't know whatthat pretty means. Next person
building a wall. Okay, don'treally understand. Goes along
site managers there, what areyou building? They say, we're
building a hospital. Now, Ioften ask people, what's the
(05:54):
most important thing there? It'sa bit of a trick question,
because they all are but it'squite an interesting question to
ask people, because some peoplego the bricks, some people go to
hospital. Hang on, if you'refocusing on if you're focusing
on the hospital, who's going tobuild it, focusing on the
bricks? Which way are you goingif you're not focusing on the
walls? That's a big gap inbetween. And what you want to
look at is, do you understandyour team's hospital, their own
individual one, and encouragingthem not just have one, because
(06:16):
you don't want them to put alltheir identity. What are they
trying to build towards? Haveyou helped them identify their
walls along the way, becauselaying a brick and building
hospital are two big thingsapart. And then have you helped
them understand what the habitswould be the bricks each day to
be able to get there? Becausethen once you understand
someone's hospital, you thenknow what was inspiring them, or
how to inspire them, and youknow what kind of conversations
(06:38):
to have with them going You saidyou wanted to work towards this,
like, what have you done thisweek around that? Or what can I
do to support you here? Or whenthey're maybe feeling a bit off,
is going, what's what's changed?Is this something you still want
to achieve?
Matt Best (06:49):
And it talks right to you know, what good leadership,
if I think about what goodleadership is, is coaching, is
helping someone like that, likeyou said, the inspiration,
asking questions to drive that,that thought and understanding
what it is that somebody needs,rather than saying, Okay, well,
yeah, I need to motivate you. SoI'm gonna carry you to your
(07:11):
point. Because then, when you'vegot your hands full of everybody
and you need to put some peopledown, they feel dropped, versus
being able to say, actually, Ineed to help. I'm sort of right
behind you, just giving younudges, just reminding you of
the important things.
Chris Hatfield (07:26):
Yeah, exactly. It's it's going and some leaders
struggle with this because theythen think, hang on, this is
where their own self tool comesin. Are they going to think less
of me if I'm not giving them ananswer? Are they going to think
I'm not giving them a support?Am I? Am I going to look like
I'm not leading, if I'm notdoing for people, or...
Matt Best (07:43):
Am I going to frustrate them by not giving
them an answer? I think a lot ofleaders think by asking great
coaching questions and coachingsomeone in that way and really
helping inspire them, as you saythat you're just sort of taking
the easy road and not answeringa question, so you're actually
frustrating the person who'sjust asking for support.
Chris Hatfield (07:59):
Yeah, I think there is, again, it's sometimes
people go into this black orwhite, thinking I even need to
ask really great questions, or Ineed to give them everything.
And it's at the start, almostimagining, like stabilizers is
going. How can I do a bit ofboth? How can I ask a question?
If I see someone who's getting abit frustrated or stressed, I
can give them a hint, and then Ican say, and what else do you
think? So, I might say, ask thema question. You know, how would
(08:20):
you go about this? You said youwanted to achieve this. What
would that look like for yourweek? Maybe this okay? And
here's something that worked forme based on that. What else do
you think could work for you andwhat else and what else? And
just kind of balancing the two,rather than thinking, I have to
go down this route, becausethat's where some people
struggle with they go, have tobe a coach, and then your team's
getting really frustrated, andyou either abandon that and
(08:43):
think, Well, I'm not going totry that again, or you stick at
it and then you just frustratepeople in your teams. They never
come to you for any questions,because they just think, Oh,
he's just going to reverse itback to me all the time.
Matt Best (08:52):
Yeah. I mean, that's, again, a really, I think,
really, really powerful,important point there around
think about that kind of keytakeaway there of not trying to
motivate, but trying to inspire,I think, or might help a lot of
leaders in changing their kindof mindset or approach to that.
Jonny Adams (09:08):
Yeah, Chris, I'm interested, because a lot, a lot
what you talk about, a lot, whatyou author, a lot, what you
support your clients with, is,is like the turbocharged version
of, we do three parts to ourwork at SBR systems. So, you
know, what are your processes inyour organization to enable your
sales leadership, marketingleadership, sales effectiveness,
(09:30):
and marketing effectivenesswork, we talk a lot about the
skills naturally we've, youknow, we've got to be quite
skillful as professionals. Andwe also about, you know, the
mindset as well. So motivationyou talk about, you talk a lot
about unproductive thinkingpatterns at the moment, which
really black and white thinkingyou've talked about some others
today. I'm really curious if, ifwe had a panel of like, you
(09:52):
know, CROs in front of us,right? Do you how would you
think they index those threethings skills per. Processes,
systems and motivations to bethe thing that's going to drive
growth. What's their perceptionat the moment when you're
talking to CROs, is it? Do theydownplay the motivation? That's
(10:12):
what I'm probably biasing here alittle bit. Or where do you
think they think about things atmoment?
Chris Hatfield (10:16):
I think it's very easy again to look at the
tangible thing that's in frontof us, the skill we need to give
them more product training. Weneed to give them more objection
handling training. It's like,well, hang on, have you talked
about the objections in theirown head, the self talk? You
know, those blockers? Yeah,exactly. Great one. It's going
we need to give them timemanagement. What about how they
manage their energy? Like, Ikind of address this in the
(10:38):
book. Is, like, there's so muchof the foundation underneath
that, that this is built on, isyou can give, you know, in in
sales, in any environment, youknow, we're looking at
technology, we're giving peoplemore access to tools. And the
biggest tool you have is yourmind, and if you're not taking
care of it, then you're notgoing to be someone isn't going
to be able to fully sort ofequip themselves, or able to
take full group, full sort ofownership of the skill set side
(11:01):
of things, or the system side ofthings as well, because they've
got their own self talk andchallenges going on around it.
So I definitely think it issomething that it's, I wouldn't
say, like universal blanketapproach. There are certainly
more people now recognizing thevalue of it, but there's that
almost balance. Sometimes ofthinking, Oh, it's more of a
tick box exercise. Sometimes, ofwe just need to do this to make
(11:22):
them feel good. And it's like,okay, you know, you might make
them feel good in the moment,but then they're going to go
back and you're almost doingmore harm than good, because
they're like, we know why youdid that.
Jonny Adams (11:32):
Yeah. Well, I'm a massive advocate of it. I know
that some of your clients thatwe know of as well, I've spoken
to them, they that they raveabout you. They think you're
phenomenal, and clear you arebecause you've got a great
business. I just think about theimpact of wellbeing. And I work
with a financial wellbeingorganization, and I was like,
why on earth is financialwellbeing not one of the biggest
(11:54):
things that's spoken about inschool? It's just, let alone
actually wellbeing as a whole.So I think, you know, in
business, if we, you know, if wecan start to bring in some of
these ideas, I think it wouldjust be great for us, not only
at work, but also outside ofwork. And that's the impact,
isn't it? You can take thesetechniques out.
Matt Best (12:12):
Yeah. I've probably related more of what you've
talked about to outside of worktype situations. In my own life.
It's so, so important. As I saidbefore, it's not just about what
we do in here, but I think orwhat we do in our in our jobs,
but I think also is this is areal lever for success, and I'm
thinking about tying this rightthe way back from because I know
with the Run Club, it's aboutproviding that space to help
(12:33):
your mental well being. And howexercise is such a great not
just exercise. I know you talkmore about this, there's other
reasons why that works in the inrunning specifically, but also
just the impact that your healthand how you look after your
body, and how that impacts theway you can look after your
mind, and how it's all tiedtogether. And I think it's great
that we're getting more thatthis is a this is a more sort of
(12:57):
recognized conversation to behaving, I think. And I think the
more it gets into businesses,and more it gets into that kind
of psyche, and I'm notsuggesting that all businesses
should start, kind of run clubsand put gyms in the basement and
everything else, but actually,there's something to be said for
people in your teams feelinglike they've got the opportunity
to go. I just need to getoutside for a bit. I just need
(13:17):
to step away from my desk and goand, you know, and go and do
this I've just done. I've got100 calls to do today. I can't
just sit here and and back toback those otherwise I'm just
going to be completely shot.
Chris Hatfield (13:28):
Yeah, and that kind of ties into psychological
safety is knowing that there's acompany. You're not saying that
people can turn up as notthemselves every day and but
you're telling them, when theydo, they will feel safe to be
able to talk about it, andthey'll feel understood, and
they'll feel like, supported.That's the kind of key
difference here, around that andgoing that I do have that space
(13:48):
to go out from my desk, and Ifeel like I'm not going to get
judged, or other people aregonna be like, Oh, you're weak,
or this person always needs togo outside. Is it's normalized.
It's actually like, celebrated,oh, it's good that you got out.
Like, rather than, why'd youkeep leaving the office? Like,
why aren't you back at yourdesk?
Matt Best (14:04):
So the previous job, we used to have a Friday lunch
Run Club, and we'd always kindof go out for and I think it was
helped by the fact thatobviously this was pre covid
When we were all in the office.Was helped by the fact that we
were there was a group of us. Soit was almost like, hang on that
that you talk about normalizingit all of a sudden. That gives
other people who maybe didn'tfeel like they feel like they
had that freedom. And, you know,at the time, it was a group of
(14:27):
senior people in the businesswho were doing that right, like
we were, we were the leadershipteam, essentially. So again, you
then then people who werelooking around going, you know,
they've gone out and they'retaking that time, and they've
come back and they had theirlunch, and they're not
apologizing for for doing that.I think that's so important.
Jonny Adams (14:43):
Yeah, and then that psychological safety piece,
yeah, it's something that, whenwe, we do a lot with growth
officers and, you know, learningand development professionals or
CPOs, and you always hear like,the the growth officers that
push is just pushing them sohard. And I wonder, what's that?
Self talk, as you were talkingabout in their own head, which
means it's translating to theirindividual contributors and
(15:05):
their other leadership members.But then the CPO say, well,
we've got to remember aboutpsychological safety. And then
the Cgo or CROs, go, Nah, don'tworry about it. We've just got
to get going. So I think there'sa bit of friction that goes on
in businesses aboutpsychological safety. Have you
seen that?
Chris Hatfield (15:19):
Yeah, and I think, again, it's down to no
one's fault, but a lack ofeducation, understanding of the
value that that comes from it,first and foremost for the
individual. And you know howthey'll benefit from it, that
will then subsequently benefitthe business as a result. Yeah,
yeah. You know, it's like going,if you treat the person as the
person that they'll then, youknow, it's a bit like when say
(15:39):
Trust, the process is like,well, trust the person. Take
care of the person. They'll takecare of the process, and the
process will work. So if you'resaying one thing is a business,
trust the process, follow oursales process, well, give people
that space to feel supportedwithin it, and then they'll
trust the process. It needs towork both ways. And some
companies don't. They say, well,trust the process, but we don't
care about that kind of safetyside of things, it's the
(16:01):
process...
Jonny Adams (16:01):
We're going to hammer you forecast accuracy,
because now we can see it,because we've got a new process.
Yeah? Oh yeah, no, thanks. Mr.Boss, Mrs. Boss. I'm not going
to do that.
Chris Hatfield (16:09):
Yeah. But I think one thing like, because
I'm always conscious of podcastsor I had, what's this tangibly
mean? And I think one thing thatleaders and I see people
struggle with sometimes is theysee vulnerability and
accountability on opposingscales, and I will if the more
vulnerable I am, or the morelike we give people that
freedom, the less accountablethey're going to be. And that,
again, that could be black andwhite thinking in place. It's
(16:31):
not always the case. And I thinkthe best thing about
vulnerability is it buildsrelatability. And vulnerability
doesn't always have to be, oh,you know, I'm really struggling
today, and this is what's goingon. It can be coupled with guys,
do you know what? Actually, I'mhaving a bit of a I spoke to
this was a senior leader, and hehad a group of people on a on a
zoom, about 70 or 80 people.CRO, and you know, how is
(16:52):
everyone murmuring as he goes,guys, I'm having a really
stressful day. But you knowwhat? I'm going to go out for a
run at lunch, and this is goingto, like, really help me. I'm
gonna leave my phone in theoffice, and I'm gonna go for a
run, and the key one there,everyone else afterwards, you
know what? Me too, like, youknow, Oh, it didn't, it didn't
say, oh, everyone can just havethe day off. But that's the
thing, if, when you're beingvulnerable, if you can give
(17:13):
people an idea of, here's howyou here's how I can deal with
it the same time or not saying,here's an instant solution, but
here's something I'm going totry. Then you give people that
space and freedom to feel likeactually, I can. I'm allowed to
feel like this as well, not inthe way of I can just go and
moan about it or vent about itall week. But something like
that is still constructed totalk through, but talking
(17:34):
through it in a way of justgetting out there and then
finding something. And I thinksome leaders then go, I can't be
vulnerable. I can't be likethis. It's going well. Think
about your stories. You know,think about, I often say, like
your superhero origin story,like, because some people might
see you as this leader who islike, oh my god, they're so
confident, they're so calm. Islike, you won't like that all
the time. Tell people, hey,look, I used to struggle with
(17:56):
this, and this is how I dealwith it. And this kind of links
into resilience. Because I thinkone of the things that people
misunderstand resilience is thatit's not just about you, it's
about other people. You could bethe most resilient person. And
we'll take an example here.Let's say a business has had 40
people. They've cut 50% of theirstaff. They've got 20 now let's
say 10 people are have beenthere for a while. They think I
(18:17):
can handle this. I'm resilient.I'm fine. 10 people aren't those
10 people that aren't see thepeople that are fine, and go,
they're fine. Why am I not me?They then start, maybe starting
thinking negatively andworrying. And then you got 50%
your business that's creatingthis culture here that is then
going to start impacting theother 50% who were fine in the
first place, that are now in anenvironment that isn't the most
(18:37):
healthy. And maybe go, I don'twant to be in this environment.
I'm going to leave. So you canuse it's important to realize
how much that kind of collectiveresilience is important as well.
When you look at it in sport,you look at it and what's going
on in the world right now, thatkind of collective resilience is
what really gets peopletogether. So yes, you want to
take care of yourself, and Idon't like this, put your own
oxygen mask on first, because,again, it's a very reactive
(18:59):
thing that only happens often.When the plane's going down is
like, Well, how do you do it?How can you take care of
yourself before the plane'sgoing down? Is what I often say.
But then also think about thecollective so if you are a
leader or a senior person in theteam, and you deal with things
really well, don't forget toshare with people around you of
how you've got to that position.And here's what I used to
(19:19):
struggle, here's how I used toreact, and here's what I did to
get there, and here's how I seeit now.
Jonny Adams (19:24):
This has been one of the most thought provoking
conversations I've ever for along, long while. So thank you.
You're welcome. And the tangibletakeaways that you know, as I
say back, we resonate with thesesort of things, and not only
because of a business, becausewe do similar things and we come
from the same, you know,backgrounds in that respect, you
know, sports coaching was mybackground, you know, from sort
(19:44):
of learning these these models,it's just resonates. But
actually, I think sometimes Ihaven't given enough thought or
time to put into practice. So Ithink your book with all of
those frameworks will be thosethings where I'm going to go on
the Christmas list, please, andthen actually just take some
time. You know. A four boxmodel, rather than a, rather
than a list. You know,overwhelming happens on an awful
(20:04):
lot in my my year, you weresaying recently about, you know,
you get towards the end of theyear and, you know, the fumes
are...
Matt Best (20:12):
Annual Christmas burnout, yeah. Yeah. And I
completely agree, Johnny. And Ithink actually having those,
having those really practicalthings, Chris, for people to
sort of take away and and putinto practice. And I think
something we've heard over thelast few guests that we've had
on the podcast is around, Ithink patience and pace is so,
so important. With all of this,right? We can't fix this,
(20:34):
where's no fixing anythinganyway, but we can't enact all
of this stuff overnight. It's ajourney that we've got to go on
and for leaders thinking abouttheir teams, and for individuals
thinking about themselves, wegot to think about it that way,
right?
Chris Hatfield (20:47):
Yeah. Well, I think there's a balance here. I
think is being patient, butstill taking action within the
action. So some people will say,sometimes, when I talk about
things easier said than done,that's the biggest limiting
belief you can tell yourself,because as soon you say it's
easier said than done, you won'tdo it. No, yeah, exactly, yeah,
everything is easier said thandone, yes, but being patient
(21:07):
with something, giving yourselfthat compassion to go look the
tools I talked about today, andI talk about this in the book,
don't expect to master themstraight away. It's okay. Some
days you might forget to do thebrain dump. Some days you might
find it really frustrating, andthat's okay. Or the other tools,
I noticed they neutralize, butthat's the point is, use them
before you need them, like youdrink water before you're
(21:28):
dehydrated, you eat beforeyou're absolutely starving.
Like, do the same thing withthese kind of tools. Be patient
with them, but also then try andpractice that habitual practice
proactively. And go, yes, I wantto give myself time, but I still
want to be intentional withthis, to allow it to resonate.
Matt Best (21:45):
Intentional, yeah, I think intentional kind of sums
up a lot of what we've talkedabout today. So yeah, as Johnny
said, Chris, it's beenincredibly insightful. Thank you
so much for coming on the growthworkshop podcast and all the
very best with the book, I'msure it's gonna be a massive
success, based on what we'veheard today, and I very much
look forward to reading it.
Chris Hatfield (22:02):
You're welcome. Thanks for having me.
Jonny Adams (22:04):
Thanks, Chris.
Matt Best (22:04):
Cheers.
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