December 30, 2024 • 26 mins
In Part 1, Charlotte Smith draws from her 2 decades of experience, and talks about how you can mobilise your leadership team, aligning KPIs with customer-centric goals, and fostering a culture of expertise and value. Charlotte’s practical frameworks demonstrate how leadership can effectively scale customer-centric initiatives, turning individual contributions into sustainable business growth.
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Episode Transcript
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Matt Best (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Growth Workshop Podcast with
(00:02):
your host, Matt Best, and ofcourse, Jonny Adams.
Jonny Adams (00:05):
Hello.
Matt Best (00:06):
It's so fantastic to be doing one of these in person,
Jonny. I'm just so grateful toall of our listeners to by
supporting our podcast enable usto to come and do one of these.
But more importantly, we arethrilled to have Charlotte Smith
join us today on the GrowthWorkshop Podcast so Charlotte,
thank you so much for joiningus.
Charlotte Smith (00:22):
Thrilled to be here. I do feel like I'm being
interviewed by CIPD. I have paidmy tax bill, I assure you, but
sure, yeah, I have. Butdelighted. Thank you so much for
inviting me.
Matt Best (00:35):
Oh, brilliant. Well, look, we're thrilled to have
you. And as someone who's anexperienced people manager,
specializing in talentstrategies and currently working
with Trilogy International.We're just really excited to get
into the conversation with youtoday on really how to drive
business growth through yourclient centric leadership, and I
think that's going to be a superinteresting area for us to open
(00:56):
up the discussion on. So yeah,again, thank you so much for for
taking the time today. I knowyou know Jonny from from past.
So maybe Jonny over to you,where did you guys meet?
Jonny Adams (01:08):
And so we've got a great friendship through friends
of a friend. So not only that,Charlotte, obviously, you've
been a client of SBR as well inthe past. So some of our friends
from home, we've got mutualfriends, which is how we know
each other. But also Charlottefrom being a client. We also
know each other through that aswell. I'm really curious,
though, just to sort of kickthings off, understand a little
bit more about your history,your experience within work,
(01:31):
what have you been doing overthe last number of years? I'm
not going to name those years,just because that would be fair,
but give a little bit ofbackground about you.
Unknown (01:38):
Yeah, it sure does. I mean, I don't mind naming the
years, right? But I got into therecruitment sector way back
when. So 2005 There we go. Hasgiven it away. Two decades is a
ridiculous thing to say. So Istarted my career as a junior
recruitment consultant. I joinedthe typical s3 bubble. That was
(01:58):
the Vogue of the recruitmentindustry back then. I wouldn't
change it for the world. I mean,there were some incredible
stories, there was someincredible hardships and ways of
working, but it was a rugged wayto be dragged into this
industry, but it absolutely gaveme all of the competencies and
the beliefs that I think havestood the test of time.
Throughout that process, I havegone full cycle from Bill, a
(02:21):
bill a team leader. I did a goodstint post 2008 crash, working
more on a talent acquisitionrole, working on kind of
resource and strategicresourcing strategies for big
energy and utilities back then,and around about the time, I
decided that I wanted to be amum. That was something that I
(02:43):
was committed to. Was the timethat I thought, okay, it is time
to hand hang those bullyinggloves up, and that's a personal
choice. That's not to say thatthat has to be done because you
want to be a mum for anyaspirational young ladies
listening to this and want to godown that path, but it was
something that I've always feltpassionate about. I remember
going to the Carnaby Streettraining facilities that SRE had
(03:06):
back then, and working with thetrainers and the coaches. And I
remember right from daydar thatthat was something that I want
to do. I really wanted to helpand to coach others. I think
right back from my sporting kindof I was, grew up like going to
all the athletics clubs, netballclubs, getting involved with
coaching other teams. I thinkI've always had that kind of
(03:26):
coach in me, and I knew that'swhat I wanted to do, that felt
like the timing was there for meto do that.
Jonny Adams (03:33):
I'm curious, what type of coach were you, you
know, an autocratic coach, orwere you a bit more relaxed? How
did you sort of go about that?
Charlotte Smith (03:39):
Well, I was a child. I was a teenager. So, you
know, this is many, many moonsago, but I like to win the
hearts and minds of people, andI like to, I think I like to
feel like I would never asksomebody to do something I
wouldn't be prepared to domyself as well. And I like to be
able to coach from experience.But of course, have had to go
(04:02):
through the journey ofunderstanding how to be a
professional coach in order toensure that people can bring the
best out of themselves, as youguys understand and know very
well. You know, back in the day,SBR as a business was was one of
those defining moments intraining that actually really
helped me understand how to turnthat funnel around and get your
(04:24):
sales professionals tounderstand the lens that they're
looking down, and therefore tobe more successful. So wrapping
that up, recruiter, yes, I am,and I'm proud of it. Started
nearly two decades ago, didabout eight to nine years
billing team leading, and thenhave ever since been in a people
manager, L and D, kind ofoperational directorship
(04:45):
capacity. And I love it.
Jonny Adams (04:47):
Amazing, well, and we have, we have many
recruitment clients, and I haveto say, over the last couple of
months, if not, you know, 12months, it's been a bit of a
challenge out there forrecruiters and businesses in
recruitment and in one of thoseorganizations. When things are
going really well. You know themarkets on the up when things
are not going so well, youactually probably know a little
bit more about the macroconditions that are ongoing. So
(05:08):
if there's anyone that knows,you've probably seen the ebbs
and the flows of what growth islike within business and
obviously your your personalside as well, in terms of
today's conversation, as wespoke about. And we're really
going to dig deep on leadershipand what that means to create a
customer centric sort ofbusiness, and how you've helped
that moving forward. But beforethat, what really curious to
(05:29):
understand is that for you as anindividual, and you spoke about
your family there, which wasamazing. You spoke about your
career, which was reallyinteresting. But when we think
about growth, there's normallyin most people's lives, and I
think back to when people arechildren, or when they're going
through their career, there'slike a sort of a growth spurt as
such. You know that moment wherewhen we were growing, when we
(05:49):
were younger, and we were movingup and getting bigger, but
actually in our career, what wasthat moment that you can think
about, or that milestone whereyou had a growth spurt and you
that really sort of got youthinking?
Unknown (06:00):
Yeah, it's so easy to answer that. It's the day that I
came back from maternity leave.I really feel like my career
transcended when I came backafter being a mum. I was
superhuman. I created anotherperson. I brought that person
into the world. I reared themhealthily, you know? I brought
(06:20):
them through, and I feltincredibly confident. That's not
to dismiss all of the kind ofmaternal worries and anxieties
that you have coming back intoquite a full on workspace. It
takes a hot minute. But I feltat that moment, if I was to be
leaving that house in themorning, dropping my child off
(06:41):
at nursery and leaving him allday had to mean something, and I
had to really ensure that Iagain, I wanted to lead by the
front, by example. I've got alittle boy, and I wanted him to
think that his mum was a rockstar. So for me, that's where,
you know, just things started toclick for me in a new role as
(07:02):
well, because I was reallytrying to pioneer what learning
and development was back then,and this was 11 years ago, so it
is so much more commonlydiscussed nowadays, but back
then, you had to fight forbudget. You had to justify your
cost base, right? And that wasalso quite hard, because you go
from I can justify my crossbase. I can give you teams with
(07:25):
million pound P and L's. I canpersonally produce business with
my own effort. So then, toreally try and work in an L and
D capacity with what was backthen, quite an old school way of
thinking to go, I'm really goingto make this work. And I'm not
just going to make this work.I'm going to pass I'm going to
pioneer this and become one ofthe most successful L and D
(07:46):
professionals in recruitment.And the last 10 years have been
exceptional. There's been somehard parts. I mean, COVID, that
was challenging, and thatactually I had to go through
redundancy at that phase afterbeing with the business for 11
years. That was excruciating atthe time, looking back on that,
that was actually wonderful,because that's caused me to gain
further experiences with somewonderful businesses and enabled
(08:08):
me to keep pushing my careerforward. But absolutely,
motherhood was a defining momentfor me, and I look back at every
career aspects that I'veachieved, thought and even just
felt in myself, it has beensince coming back from having my
son.
Jonny Adams (08:23):
Well, listening to that has probably given me a few
goosebumps. Just to sort ofanchor around the conversation
today, over the last number ofmonths, we've found a really hot
topic that's going on with allof the amazing guests that we've
had, all about customercentricity. And, you know, in
hard markets and difficultmarkets in business, having a
really good anchor aroundcustomer centricity can really
(08:45):
help you retain and grow keyclients and continue to keep the
lights on as such. And whateverrole you play, people centered
learning and development, you'reas crucial as anyone else to
creating that but just as a bitof preamble and as a frame for
today, before we get into someof the chunky topics, I'm really
curious. And if you think aboutthe topic today, we're thinking
about driving business growththrough customer centric
(09:07):
leadership, and what thosestrategies are to creating that
and we're really emphasizing thepoint around the leadership part
to customer centricity. So whydo you think leadership is so
important towards customercentricity? Could you describe a
little bit?
Unknown (09:23):
Yeah, I think it's key to take one step back on that.
So every business, regardless ofyour output profession, whether
it's selling stocks and shares,double glazing or recruitment
services, there will be a momentwhere a board will sit down and
go, This is what we haveachieved. This is what we
haven't achieved, and this iswhat we would like to achieve.
(09:45):
So I think me and you have jokedover the years, Johnny, like
people love a statement, don'tthey? They love throwing
something out there to say, thisis what we are going to do.
Great, full stop the and whatmoment is the leadership team?
And the reason that's an andwhat moment is because if you
can't gear your leadership teamto drive your people to achieve
(10:06):
that, then what's the point?Don't go in that boardroom and
blueprint that strategy in thefirst place, particularly within
recruitment services. And I knowthat's incredibly relatable to a
lot of the other customers thatwill be listening to this show,
but you can have the best ideas,but if you don't know how to
mobilize that, you're going tocome unstuck every single time.
(10:30):
So from a leadershipperspective, you have to have
the right people around you todrive that strategy and achieve
that from a customer point ofview, yes, but that, again, will
have a pin in it. How is thatleadership team driving the
people, the foot soldiers, todeliver that strategy? Actually
should take up the market shareof your conversation. So if
(10:51):
there is a two hour board meetto define your strategy for
coming years and months, 10% ofthat time should be allocated to
the goal. 90% of that timeshould be then used to discuss
the how.
Jonny Adams (11:04):
And that weight that you've just given there. 10
to 90, has that come fromexperience? Is that something
that you believe in, like you'vejust given a nice little idea or
concept? 1090 where's that comefrom? Has that come from
experience?
Unknown (11:16):
Definitely comes from experience. I don't know whether
it was my upbringing. I don'tknow whether it's because I've
been in recruitment since a veryyoung age that I just can listen
to people kind of come up withthese good concepts and ideas
and then just wishy washy theirway to execution. I'm like,
we're not gonna get this done.I'm also, think back to my
(11:40):
defining moment. Don't waste mytime if I'm going to spend a day
with you and we're going todrive this business forward. If
I'm with you, I'm not at home.So let's, let's make this work.
Let's get stuff done. So itdefinitely does come from
experience. But of course, I'vehad some fantastic mentors over
the year that have helped usunderstand the how so much more
(12:02):
well, you've got your how andyour why versus your what,
right? So it's definitely amixture of both. I'm not
pioneering that as a strategy. Ijust really believe it, and I'm
not scared to stick up for it ifI think the leadership team that
I'm working with are veering offcourse and not actually labeling
and funneling away to what forus to actually produce that, and
(12:22):
potentially, because I am in apeople role, because I have to
go back and get stuff done viapeople. So I need to know what
those layers are. So it'sincredibly easy to navigate in
control, but also prove ROI,which I have to do all the time.
So if I can do that with stepone equals Step Two equals step
three equals before we're ding,ding. We did it, then I can do
(12:43):
my job much more effectively.
Matt Best (12:45):
It's so fascinating. You talk about the people
element and you talk abouthaving the leadership team on
the journey. I think it's reallyimportant to remember why
leadership is there. I was at aconference recently talking
about, like levers in salesenablement and how you can
really scale enabling a team,and it's sort of this. It's
strange to think that the firstpoint of call would be the
focusing on individualpractitioners or individual
(13:08):
contributors. When you think, ifwe need to, if we need to scale
something and we need to getsomething out there, what if
leaders aren't coaching andsupporting that kind of
initiative? What is their job?What are they doing?
Unknown (13:20):
Yeah, and I get it. Phase one is contributors for
businesses, particularly in therecruitment world. Think how
many kind of startups there areout there and people that have
billed well and then wanted togo and do it themselves, right?
If you look at phase one ofthat, you do need to get those
contributors, because they willpay the bills. You can't ignore
(13:42):
that. And I think I have to workreally hard as a people
professional, because I get itlike there are people that are
exceptional billers, and quitefrankly, they pay my wages too,
right? So I think a businessneeds that you have to learn how
to harness that superpower thatthey have, and you have to get
(14:03):
very good at spotting whethersomebody can therefore lead from
the front, as I said before, orthey just need to just do and
then you need to better equipthe people, the people leaders
around you, to be able todeliver a strategy which is
usually phase two, phase Three,phase four, of a business that
wants to scale via head count.Then they usually want to do
(14:26):
that because, of course, theywant to see that bottom number
grow. And so therefore you haveto, you have to pay attention to
both in equal measure. Butagain, you just, just call it
out. Just call it for what itis. Don't force a round peg into
a square hole. And work hard toensure that everybody's
considered level.
Matt Best (14:44):
Yeah. And I guess that's what I was, what I was
trying to sort of say there wasaround that kind of leverage
point, right? And so, yeah,absolutely right. It's enabling
those people, but just seeingthe leadership team is your
ability to scale that right, aswell being one person or even a
small team trying to get. Aroundall of those individual
contributors and harness that isa really challenging thing to
(15:05):
do. So actually, you getinfinite. Well, not infinite,
but you get significant scale bysaying, we can say we've got
this leadership team people,leaders, how to help them get
the most out of their people,how to help them really help
their individual contributorsunderstand the importance of
being client centric. Forexample, if that's what's being
driven across the business. Ithink that's reflecting on this,
this particular conference thatI referenced, I think it was, it
(15:26):
was a light bulb for so manypeople around the room. And you
just think that felt quiteshocking to me, because I was
just thinking, Well, surelythat's fairly obvious.
Unknown (15:33):
Yeah, people love the the numbers, right? The pounds,
the Euros, the dollars, veryrarely, and particularly in my
industry, there are definitelyother sectors that are way
better than this, but veryrarely do they actually do the
dissection of, how did we getthere, right? How did that? How
(15:54):
did that happen? Because, youknow, I've worked with some
great leaders, and they're like,Oh, we probably need a you,
because we've got a bit luckyand to get to that next level of
growth, we need to mobilize ourpeople and our leadership team
in the right ways. And I'm like,nobody gets that Lucky you.
There is a way. There is thereis a list of ingredients here
that have been put togetherquite nicely. So for any of my
(16:17):
leadership professionals,people, professionals that are
listening to this pod like takethe time to dissect the good
before you go into anyleadership team, looking for
instant gaps that you cancorrect, because you don't need
to come in like a like a moodHoover and instantly go into
(16:38):
you're not doing this. You'renot do that as you really focus
on what has gone really, reallywell, how much of that will get
you to the next goals aroundthat customer centric strategy
that you are looking toimplement, and what's and then
what's missing, because itdoesn't always have to be hard
work. It doesn't there is somuch joy in what we do. So
(17:02):
celebrate what was good.Actually construct the lucky and
enable your leadership team toview that, and then they'll go,
Okay, now we understand our stepone, step two, step three. We
didn't realize we were doingthat every single time, because
we were just coming in and doingas is, as all good billing
professionals do, they justdon't think it's unconscious. So
(17:25):
our job is to then unravel that,create a formula and replicate
that, and then then you've got ascalable business.
Matt Best (17:33):
And you talk about the formula, and a couple of
times in there Charlotte, you'vementioned the data points and
return of investment. All thesethings require real focus on
KPIs and really understandingthe metrics that sit behind
this. And I know from previousconversations we've had that's
really sort of sits at the heartof this. But how do you balance
that with the people side ofthings? How have you been
(17:55):
successfully able to say,actually, how do we maintain a
client centric or customercentric approach, but still kind
of focus on on the KPIs. And Iguess, just to clarify what I
mean there, we know that thatyou can do it twice, but it is a
bit of a juggling act. If you'rean individual contributor or a
leader and you're like, we'relaser focused in on these
metrics, how do you rememberthat you still would a client to
(18:16):
serve at the other end?
Unknown (18:17):
Yeah. So first of all, you again, you have to look for
the method that achieved thepositive results in the first
place. So data is key to that,because otherwise you've got no
proof of concept. Now, typicallywith sales people, you are often
working with, you know, good oldprism chart, right? You're
often, often working with eitherhighly analytical or highly
(18:40):
dominant professionals thateither need to race to the
finish line or they need toscrutinize how you got to the
finish line in the first place.So a lot of my job is proving,
look, see this is how we did it.So data is really key with that.
And the use of technology anddecent CRMs that are able to
give you analytical tools to beable to do that has been
(19:02):
absolutely key. Whenever I'veconsidered an employment
opportunity, I have neverentertained a company that has
got a rubbish CRM and a rubbishway of looking at the analytics,
because I just don't know whereI could start with that I can't
create a blueprint for us to beable to drive the right
(19:25):
behaviors. And the reason I wantto drive the right behaviors is
because I am driven by acustomer centric approach
always, because without ourcustomers and without happy
customers, we won't produce thesales. Without happy customers,
they don't pay their bills. Sothere's, there's front office
and back office issues alignedto ensuring that your customer
centric approach is really onpoint. So from a KPI
(19:47):
perspective, you prove themethod, you go and hunt out what
really works, and then you haveto, then take it back one step
before that and go, Okay, well,now we know what works. We can't
just diagnose. We can't justsay, do. X amount of this, X
amount of that, you have toreally train the methodology
behind that. So there is almostmethod and mindset that really
(20:08):
needs to come into any type ofpeople slash leadership strategy
to achieve a truly clientcentric approach. So the example
being within my world, right?We're looking for successful
conversations, or I call themnice nos. So nice nos with
potential customers, and thereason they're a nice no is
(20:28):
because we have been customercentric. We've rung somebody or
rang somebody with a truly onpoint value proposition. We're
not wasting their time. We'renot ringing to just introduce
ourselves. We have rang becausewe are subject matter experts in
what we do. We think there's anelement of some decent timing
involved, so they probably doneed to know about us at that
(20:52):
point, or may need to know aboutus at some point in the close
future. And as a result, we'realigned, and we can start that
kind of cadence in order to beable to try and win that person
over and win the business,right? Joy, that's that's what
we're looking for as recruitmentprofessionals. And I'm sure that
funnel is relatable to othersales funnels as well, right? So
(21:14):
the target is, therefore, howmany BD calls are you doing?
Right? You can put that on adashboard, you can produce
reports around that you can puta number out there, which is,
you know, the same as aningredients list, 250 grams of
self raising flour versus 25 BBcalls in a week should be able
to produce you a decent ratio,etc, etc. So then the step back
(21:37):
before that is the training.It's the why, it's the how it's,
you know, taking the time tonurture and teach somebody what
a decent value proposition is.The step back before that for my
business in particular is, wecall it market segmentation. So
it's, don't be a generalist. Youknow, if you truly want to make
(21:59):
your customers happy, you willprovide them something that is
hard to find, from their talentacquisition teams, from just
posting their own adverts. Soyou have to truly own your
market. You can't cop out ofbeing a subject matter expert.
That's training, that'sleadership. So again, I can't as
the people professional. I can'tsit with my banking team and go
(22:21):
right, where's the next kind ofbig change in transformations
within the banking world. I haveto work very closely with our
Associate Directors tounderstand that, and we have to
leverage each other's skills.They have to tell me in which
direction to point their people,because they understand the
commercial gain from that.
Jonny Adams (22:38):
I'm really curious. I'm sorry to butt in on your
great explanation, because I'mloving this framework. It
reminds me about two years ago,we working with a unicorn, so,
you know, a hugely profitableand hyper growth organization.
We were working with a number ofSDRs and AES. In this particular
they were selling human resourcesoftware. And when we were
talking to individuals todifferentiate themselves, or
(22:59):
that business that differentiatethemselves within the
marketplace. I just challengedand asked a question. It
resonates a little bit of whatyou're saying. I said, if you're
selling HR software to your HRpersona, which is essentially
your buying center, you know,how many of you have picked up
the latest HR magazine? How manyof you picked up the latest HR
newsletter? How many of you haverang around your network and
(23:22):
called up a HR professional andunderstood exactly what they do
for a day to day job. And wework with over 100 of their
sales developmentrepresentatives, zero. So does
that resonate with you, whereveryou've been, without naming
names, but how would you youknow, Coach or train on that
particular piece? I think it'saligning a little bit to what
you're saying.
Charlotte Smith (23:39):
Yeah, I spoke about as a people professional,
Jonny Adams (23:39):
I watch your feed, yeah.
when you first on board with abusiness, one of the first kind
of health checks I do is tell meabout your market. You know,
where are the parameters to thatmarket and what strategies or
what key things do you have inplay to ensure that you are
(24:00):
becoming a brand within thatmarket. What does your shop
window say as an example? Right?So LinkedIn, love it or hate it,
right? Love it it'll hate whatyou see on those feeds. You're
still looking.
Charlotte Smith (24:14):
Well, hopefully you like my feed.
Jonny Adams (24:16):
I'm not a lurker. I am a liker and a commenter. You
know that.
Unknown (24:20):
You are, you are. It's when my old colleagues go really
enjoyed that was like, Where wasthe likes, what's that about?
Exactly, right? So, yeah, youhave to kind of get that. What
do you do? Great. How are youbecoming a kind of spearhead
subject matter expert in thatand I work....
Jonny Adams (24:40):
But Charlotte, but what would you do? Because,
because I think about a methodactor, right? And you think
about those method actors thatspend nine months of being that
person. And if you want to be anexpert and you want to grow into
that role, and you're leadingthis customer centric approach
through the leadership function,surely businesses need to tell
Matt, get out there. You'reselling into the. Financial
(25:00):
service industry. How manypeople have you spoken to? How
much do you truly know aboutthat? Isn't there something
that's missing in the marketthat we don't do...
Unknown (25:08):
Oh 100% and it's terrible in my market, because
it's often a junior model whereyou hire 20 year olds that know
how to use Tiktok more than theydo LinkedIn, but that's
therefore showing my age becauseI don't know how to use Tiktok,
and I know how to use LinkedIn,but it's really challenging, but
you can't it's a non negotiable.You absolutely cannot give up on
(25:30):
the fundamentals. And as atraining professional, as a
business coach and as anoperational director, it's right
back at the grassroots if Idon't have the right seeds to
plant in the first place. I amnot going to get the harvest
that I want. So it cannot beignored, it cannot be
understated, and you have towork really, really hard at
(25:52):
getting that right in the firstplace.
Matt Best (25:54):
That is a fantastic place for us to end the
conversation today. Charlotte,thank you so much to everyone
listening. Join us for part twoas we continue this
conversation.
Hello and welcome to the Growth Workshop Podcast with
(00:02):
your host, Matt Best, and ofcourse, Jonny Adams.
Jonny Adams (00:05):
Hello.
Matt Best (00:06):
It's so fantastic to be doing one of these in person,
Jonny. I'm just so grateful toall of our listeners to by
supporting our podcast enable usto to come and do one of these.
But more importantly, we arethrilled to have Charlotte Smith
join us today on the GrowthWorkshop Podcast so Charlotte,
thank you so much for joiningus.
Charlotte Smith (00:22):
Thrilled to be here. I do feel like I'm being
interviewed by CIPD. I have paidmy tax bill, I assure you, but
sure, yeah, I have. Butdelighted. Thank you so much for
inviting me.
Matt Best (00:35):
Oh, brilliant. Well, look, we're thrilled to have
you. And as someone who's anexperienced people manager,
specializing in talentstrategies and currently working
with Trilogy International.We're just really excited to get
into the conversation with youtoday on really how to drive
business growth through yourclient centric leadership, and I
think that's going to be a superinteresting area for us to open
(00:56):
up the discussion on. So yeah,again, thank you so much for for
taking the time today. I knowyou know Jonny from from past.
So maybe Jonny over to you,where did you guys meet?
Jonny Adams (01:08):
And so we've got a great friendship through friends
of a friend. So not only that,Charlotte, obviously, you've
been a client of SBR as well inthe past. So some of our friends
from home, we've got mutualfriends, which is how we know
each other. But also Charlottefrom being a client. We also
know each other through that aswell. I'm really curious,
though, just to sort of kickthings off, understand a little
bit more about your history,your experience within work,
(01:31):
what have you been doing overthe last number of years? I'm
not going to name those years,just because that would be fair,
but give a little bit ofbackground about you.
Unknown (01:38):
Yeah, it sure does. I mean, I don't mind naming the
years, right? But I got into therecruitment sector way back
when. So 2005 There we go. Hasgiven it away. Two decades is a
ridiculous thing to say. So Istarted my career as a junior
recruitment consultant. I joinedthe typical s3 bubble. That was
(01:58):
the Vogue of the recruitmentindustry back then. I wouldn't
change it for the world. I mean,there were some incredible
stories, there was someincredible hardships and ways of
working, but it was a rugged wayto be dragged into this
industry, but it absolutely gaveme all of the competencies and
the beliefs that I think havestood the test of time.
Throughout that process, I havegone full cycle from Bill, a
(02:21):
bill a team leader. I did a goodstint post 2008 crash, working
more on a talent acquisitionrole, working on kind of
resource and strategicresourcing strategies for big
energy and utilities back then,and around about the time, I
decided that I wanted to be amum. That was something that I
(02:43):
was committed to. Was the timethat I thought, okay, it is time
to hand hang those bullyinggloves up, and that's a personal
choice. That's not to say thatthat has to be done because you
want to be a mum for anyaspirational young ladies
listening to this and want to godown that path, but it was
something that I've always feltpassionate about. I remember
going to the Carnaby Streettraining facilities that SRE had
(03:06):
back then, and working with thetrainers and the coaches. And I
remember right from daydar thatthat was something that I want
to do. I really wanted to helpand to coach others. I think
right back from my sporting kindof I was, grew up like going to
all the athletics clubs, netballclubs, getting involved with
coaching other teams. I thinkI've always had that kind of
(03:26):
coach in me, and I knew that'swhat I wanted to do, that felt
like the timing was there for meto do that.
Jonny Adams (03:33):
I'm curious, what type of coach were you, you
know, an autocratic coach, orwere you a bit more relaxed? How
did you sort of go about that?
Charlotte Smith (03:39):
Well, I was a child. I was a teenager. So, you
know, this is many, many moonsago, but I like to win the
hearts and minds of people, andI like to, I think I like to
feel like I would never asksomebody to do something I
wouldn't be prepared to domyself as well. And I like to be
able to coach from experience.But of course, have had to go
(04:02):
through the journey ofunderstanding how to be a
professional coach in order toensure that people can bring the
best out of themselves, as youguys understand and know very
well. You know, back in the day,SBR as a business was was one of
those defining moments intraining that actually really
helped me understand how to turnthat funnel around and get your
(04:24):
sales professionals tounderstand the lens that they're
looking down, and therefore tobe more successful. So wrapping
that up, recruiter, yes, I am,and I'm proud of it. Started
nearly two decades ago, didabout eight to nine years
billing team leading, and thenhave ever since been in a people
manager, L and D, kind ofoperational directorship
(04:45):
capacity. And I love it.
Jonny Adams (04:47):
Amazing, well, and we have, we have many
recruitment clients, and I haveto say, over the last couple of
months, if not, you know, 12months, it's been a bit of a
challenge out there forrecruiters and businesses in
recruitment and in one of thoseorganizations. When things are
going really well. You know themarkets on the up when things
are not going so well, youactually probably know a little
bit more about the macroconditions that are ongoing. So
(05:08):
if there's anyone that knows,you've probably seen the ebbs
and the flows of what growth islike within business and
obviously your your personalside as well, in terms of
today's conversation, as wespoke about. And we're really
going to dig deep on leadershipand what that means to create a
customer centric sort ofbusiness, and how you've helped
that moving forward. But beforethat, what really curious to
(05:29):
understand is that for you as anindividual, and you spoke about
your family there, which wasamazing. You spoke about your
career, which was reallyinteresting. But when we think
about growth, there's normallyin most people's lives, and I
think back to when people arechildren, or when they're going
through their career, there'slike a sort of a growth spurt as
such. You know that moment wherewhen we were growing, when we
(05:49):
were younger, and we were movingup and getting bigger, but
actually in our career, what wasthat moment that you can think
about, or that milestone whereyou had a growth spurt and you
that really sort of got youthinking?
Unknown (06:00):
Yeah, it's so easy to answer that. It's the day that I
came back from maternity leave.I really feel like my career
transcended when I came backafter being a mum. I was
superhuman. I created anotherperson. I brought that person
into the world. I reared themhealthily, you know? I brought
(06:20):
them through, and I feltincredibly confident. That's not
to dismiss all of the kind ofmaternal worries and anxieties
that you have coming back intoquite a full on workspace. It
takes a hot minute. But I feltat that moment, if I was to be
leaving that house in themorning, dropping my child off
(06:41):
at nursery and leaving him allday had to mean something, and I
had to really ensure that Iagain, I wanted to lead by the
front, by example. I've got alittle boy, and I wanted him to
think that his mum was a rockstar. So for me, that's where,
you know, just things started toclick for me in a new role as
(07:02):
well, because I was reallytrying to pioneer what learning
and development was back then,and this was 11 years ago, so it
is so much more commonlydiscussed nowadays, but back
then, you had to fight forbudget. You had to justify your
cost base, right? And that wasalso quite hard, because you go
from I can justify my crossbase. I can give you teams with
(07:25):
million pound P and L's. I canpersonally produce business with
my own effort. So then, toreally try and work in an L and
D capacity with what was backthen, quite an old school way of
thinking to go, I'm really goingto make this work. And I'm not
just going to make this work.I'm going to pass I'm going to
pioneer this and become one ofthe most successful L and D
(07:46):
professionals in recruitment.And the last 10 years have been
exceptional. There's been somehard parts. I mean, COVID, that
was challenging, and thatactually I had to go through
redundancy at that phase afterbeing with the business for 11
years. That was excruciating atthe time, looking back on that,
that was actually wonderful,because that's caused me to gain
further experiences with somewonderful businesses and enabled
(08:08):
me to keep pushing my careerforward. But absolutely,
motherhood was a defining momentfor me, and I look back at every
career aspects that I'veachieved, thought and even just
felt in myself, it has beensince coming back from having my
son.
Jonny Adams (08:23):
Well, listening to that has probably given me a few
goosebumps. Just to sort ofanchor around the conversation
today, over the last number ofmonths, we've found a really hot
topic that's going on with allof the amazing guests that we've
had, all about customercentricity. And, you know, in
hard markets and difficultmarkets in business, having a
really good anchor aroundcustomer centricity can really
(08:45):
help you retain and grow keyclients and continue to keep the
lights on as such. And whateverrole you play, people centered
learning and development, you'reas crucial as anyone else to
creating that but just as a bitof preamble and as a frame for
today, before we get into someof the chunky topics, I'm really
curious. And if you think aboutthe topic today, we're thinking
about driving business growththrough customer centric
(09:07):
leadership, and what thosestrategies are to creating that
and we're really emphasizing thepoint around the leadership part
to customer centricity. So whydo you think leadership is so
important towards customercentricity? Could you describe a
little bit?
Unknown (09:23):
Yeah, I think it's key to take one step back on that.
So every business, regardless ofyour output profession, whether
it's selling stocks and shares,double glazing or recruitment
services, there will be a momentwhere a board will sit down and
go, This is what we haveachieved. This is what we
haven't achieved, and this iswhat we would like to achieve.
(09:45):
So I think me and you have jokedover the years, Johnny, like
people love a statement, don'tthey? They love throwing
something out there to say, thisis what we are going to do.
Great, full stop the and whatmoment is the leadership team?
And the reason that's an andwhat moment is because if you
can't gear your leadership teamto drive your people to achieve
(10:06):
that, then what's the point?Don't go in that boardroom and
blueprint that strategy in thefirst place, particularly within
recruitment services. And I knowthat's incredibly relatable to a
lot of the other customers thatwill be listening to this show,
but you can have the best ideas,but if you don't know how to
mobilize that, you're going tocome unstuck every single time.
(10:30):
So from a leadershipperspective, you have to have
the right people around you todrive that strategy and achieve
that from a customer point ofview, yes, but that, again, will
have a pin in it. How is thatleadership team driving the
people, the foot soldiers, todeliver that strategy? Actually
should take up the market shareof your conversation. So if
(10:51):
there is a two hour board meetto define your strategy for
coming years and months, 10% ofthat time should be allocated to
the goal. 90% of that timeshould be then used to discuss
the how.
Jonny Adams (11:04):
And that weight that you've just given there. 10
to 90, has that come fromexperience? Is that something
that you believe in, like you'vejust given a nice little idea or
concept? 1090 where's that comefrom? Has that come from
experience?
Unknown (11:16):
Definitely comes from experience. I don't know whether
it was my upbringing. I don'tknow whether it's because I've
been in recruitment since a veryyoung age that I just can listen
to people kind of come up withthese good concepts and ideas
and then just wishy washy theirway to execution. I'm like,
we're not gonna get this done.I'm also, think back to my
(11:40):
defining moment. Don't waste mytime if I'm going to spend a day
with you and we're going todrive this business forward. If
I'm with you, I'm not at home.So let's, let's make this work.
Let's get stuff done. So itdefinitely does come from
experience. But of course, I'vehad some fantastic mentors over
the year that have helped usunderstand the how so much more
(12:02):
well, you've got your how andyour why versus your what,
right? So it's definitely amixture of both. I'm not
pioneering that as a strategy. Ijust really believe it, and I'm
not scared to stick up for it ifI think the leadership team that
I'm working with are veering offcourse and not actually labeling
and funneling away to what forus to actually produce that, and
(12:22):
potentially, because I am in apeople role, because I have to
go back and get stuff done viapeople. So I need to know what
those layers are. So it'sincredibly easy to navigate in
control, but also prove ROI,which I have to do all the time.
So if I can do that with stepone equals Step Two equals step
three equals before we're ding,ding. We did it, then I can do
(12:43):
my job much more effectively.
Matt Best (12:45):
It's so fascinating. You talk about the people
element and you talk abouthaving the leadership team on
the journey. I think it's reallyimportant to remember why
leadership is there. I was at aconference recently talking
about, like levers in salesenablement and how you can
really scale enabling a team,and it's sort of this. It's
strange to think that the firstpoint of call would be the
focusing on individualpractitioners or individual
(13:08):
contributors. When you think, ifwe need to, if we need to scale
something and we need to getsomething out there, what if
leaders aren't coaching andsupporting that kind of
initiative? What is their job?What are they doing?
Unknown (13:20):
Yeah, and I get it. Phase one is contributors for
businesses, particularly in therecruitment world. Think how
many kind of startups there areout there and people that have
billed well and then wanted togo and do it themselves, right?
If you look at phase one ofthat, you do need to get those
contributors, because they willpay the bills. You can't ignore
(13:42):
that. And I think I have to workreally hard as a people
professional, because I get itlike there are people that are
exceptional billers, and quitefrankly, they pay my wages too,
right? So I think a businessneeds that you have to learn how
to harness that superpower thatthey have, and you have to get
(14:03):
very good at spotting whethersomebody can therefore lead from
the front, as I said before, orthey just need to just do and
then you need to better equipthe people, the people leaders
around you, to be able todeliver a strategy which is
usually phase two, phase Three,phase four, of a business that
wants to scale via head count.Then they usually want to do
(14:26):
that because, of course, theywant to see that bottom number
grow. And so therefore you haveto, you have to pay attention to
both in equal measure. Butagain, you just, just call it
out. Just call it for what itis. Don't force a round peg into
a square hole. And work hard toensure that everybody's
considered level.
Matt Best (14:44):
Yeah. And I guess that's what I was, what I was
trying to sort of say there wasaround that kind of leverage
point, right? And so, yeah,absolutely right. It's enabling
those people, but just seeingthe leadership team is your
ability to scale that right, aswell being one person or even a
small team trying to get. Aroundall of those individual
contributors and harness that isa really challenging thing to
(15:05):
do. So actually, you getinfinite. Well, not infinite,
but you get significant scale bysaying, we can say we've got
this leadership team people,leaders, how to help them get
the most out of their people,how to help them really help
their individual contributorsunderstand the importance of
being client centric. Forexample, if that's what's being
driven across the business. Ithink that's reflecting on this,
this particular conference thatI referenced, I think it was, it
(15:26):
was a light bulb for so manypeople around the room. And you
just think that felt quiteshocking to me, because I was
just thinking, Well, surelythat's fairly obvious.
Unknown (15:33):
Yeah, people love the the numbers, right? The pounds,
the Euros, the dollars, veryrarely, and particularly in my
industry, there are definitelyother sectors that are way
better than this, but veryrarely do they actually do the
dissection of, how did we getthere, right? How did that? How
(15:54):
did that happen? Because, youknow, I've worked with some
great leaders, and they're like,Oh, we probably need a you,
because we've got a bit luckyand to get to that next level of
growth, we need to mobilize ourpeople and our leadership team
in the right ways. And I'm like,nobody gets that Lucky you.
There is a way. There is thereis a list of ingredients here
that have been put togetherquite nicely. So for any of my
(16:17):
leadership professionals,people, professionals that are
listening to this pod like takethe time to dissect the good
before you go into anyleadership team, looking for
instant gaps that you cancorrect, because you don't need
to come in like a like a moodHoover and instantly go into
(16:38):
you're not doing this. You'renot do that as you really focus
on what has gone really, reallywell, how much of that will get
you to the next goals aroundthat customer centric strategy
that you are looking toimplement, and what's and then
what's missing, because itdoesn't always have to be hard
work. It doesn't there is somuch joy in what we do. So
(17:02):
celebrate what was good.Actually construct the lucky and
enable your leadership team toview that, and then they'll go,
Okay, now we understand our stepone, step two, step three. We
didn't realize we were doingthat every single time, because
we were just coming in and doingas is, as all good billing
professionals do, they justdon't think it's unconscious. So
(17:25):
our job is to then unravel that,create a formula and replicate
that, and then then you've got ascalable business.
Matt Best (17:33):
And you talk about the formula, and a couple of
times in there Charlotte, you'vementioned the data points and
return of investment. All thesethings require real focus on
KPIs and really understandingthe metrics that sit behind
this. And I know from previousconversations we've had that's
really sort of sits at the heartof this. But how do you balance
that with the people side ofthings? How have you been
(17:55):
successfully able to say,actually, how do we maintain a
client centric or customercentric approach, but still kind
of focus on on the KPIs. And Iguess, just to clarify what I
mean there, we know that thatyou can do it twice, but it is a
bit of a juggling act. If you'rean individual contributor or a
leader and you're like, we'relaser focused in on these
metrics, how do you rememberthat you still would a client to
(18:16):
serve at the other end?
Unknown (18:17):
Yeah. So first of all, you again, you have to look for
the method that achieved thepositive results in the first
place. So data is key to that,because otherwise you've got no
proof of concept. Now, typicallywith sales people, you are often
working with, you know, good oldprism chart, right? You're
often, often working with eitherhighly analytical or highly
(18:40):
dominant professionals thateither need to race to the
finish line or they need toscrutinize how you got to the
finish line in the first place.So a lot of my job is proving,
look, see this is how we did it.So data is really key with that.
And the use of technology anddecent CRMs that are able to
give you analytical tools to beable to do that has been
(19:02):
absolutely key. Whenever I'veconsidered an employment
opportunity, I have neverentertained a company that has
got a rubbish CRM and a rubbishway of looking at the analytics,
because I just don't know whereI could start with that I can't
create a blueprint for us to beable to drive the right
(19:25):
behaviors. And the reason I wantto drive the right behaviors is
because I am driven by acustomer centric approach
always, because without ourcustomers and without happy
customers, we won't produce thesales. Without happy customers,
they don't pay their bills. Sothere's, there's front office
and back office issues alignedto ensuring that your customer
centric approach is really onpoint. So from a KPI
(19:47):
perspective, you prove themethod, you go and hunt out what
really works, and then you haveto, then take it back one step
before that and go, Okay, well,now we know what works. We can't
just diagnose. We can't justsay, do. X amount of this, X
amount of that, you have toreally train the methodology
behind that. So there is almostmethod and mindset that really
(20:08):
needs to come into any type ofpeople slash leadership strategy
to achieve a truly clientcentric approach. So the example
being within my world, right?We're looking for successful
conversations, or I call themnice nos. So nice nos with
potential customers, and thereason they're a nice no is
(20:28):
because we have been customercentric. We've rung somebody or
rang somebody with a truly onpoint value proposition. We're
not wasting their time. We'renot ringing to just introduce
ourselves. We have rang becausewe are subject matter experts in
what we do. We think there's anelement of some decent timing
involved, so they probably doneed to know about us at that
(20:52):
point, or may need to know aboutus at some point in the close
future. And as a result, we'realigned, and we can start that
kind of cadence in order to beable to try and win that person
over and win the business,right? Joy, that's that's what
we're looking for as recruitmentprofessionals. And I'm sure that
funnel is relatable to othersales funnels as well, right? So
(21:14):
the target is, therefore, howmany BD calls are you doing?
Right? You can put that on adashboard, you can produce
reports around that you can puta number out there, which is,
you know, the same as aningredients list, 250 grams of
self raising flour versus 25 BBcalls in a week should be able
to produce you a decent ratio,etc, etc. So then the step back
(21:37):
before that is the training.It's the why, it's the how it's,
you know, taking the time tonurture and teach somebody what
a decent value proposition is.The step back before that for my
business in particular is, wecall it market segmentation. So
it's, don't be a generalist. Youknow, if you truly want to make
(21:59):
your customers happy, you willprovide them something that is
hard to find, from their talentacquisition teams, from just
posting their own adverts. Soyou have to truly own your
market. You can't cop out ofbeing a subject matter expert.
That's training, that'sleadership. So again, I can't as
the people professional. I can'tsit with my banking team and go
(22:21):
right, where's the next kind ofbig change in transformations
within the banking world. I haveto work very closely with our
Associate Directors tounderstand that, and we have to
leverage each other's skills.They have to tell me in which
direction to point their people,because they understand the
commercial gain from that.
Jonny Adams (22:38):
I'm really curious. I'm sorry to butt in on your
great explanation, because I'mloving this framework. It
reminds me about two years ago,we working with a unicorn, so,
you know, a hugely profitableand hyper growth organization.
We were working with a number ofSDRs and AES. In this particular
they were selling human resourcesoftware. And when we were
talking to individuals todifferentiate themselves, or
(22:59):
that business that differentiatethemselves within the
marketplace. I just challengedand asked a question. It
resonates a little bit of whatyou're saying. I said, if you're
selling HR software to your HRpersona, which is essentially
your buying center, you know,how many of you have picked up
the latest HR magazine? How manyof you picked up the latest HR
newsletter? How many of you haverang around your network and
(23:22):
called up a HR professional andunderstood exactly what they do
for a day to day job. And wework with over 100 of their
sales developmentrepresentatives, zero. So does
that resonate with you, whereveryou've been, without naming
names, but how would you youknow, Coach or train on that
particular piece? I think it'saligning a little bit to what
you're saying.
Charlotte Smith (23:39):
Yeah, I spoke about as a people professional,
Jonny Adams (23:39):
I watch your feed, yeah.
when you first on board with abusiness, one of the first kind
of health checks I do is tell meabout your market. You know,
where are the parameters to thatmarket and what strategies or
what key things do you have inplay to ensure that you are
(24:00):
becoming a brand within thatmarket. What does your shop
window say as an example? Right?So LinkedIn, love it or hate it,
right? Love it it'll hate whatyou see on those feeds. You're
still looking.
Charlotte Smith (24:14):
Well, hopefully you like my feed.
Jonny Adams (24:16):
I'm not a lurker. I am a liker and a commenter. You
know that.
Unknown (24:20):
You are, you are. It's when my old colleagues go really
enjoyed that was like, Where wasthe likes, what's that about?
Exactly, right? So, yeah, youhave to kind of get that. What
do you do? Great. How are youbecoming a kind of spearhead
subject matter expert in thatand I work....
Jonny Adams (24:40):
But Charlotte, but what would you do? Because,
because I think about a methodactor, right? And you think
about those method actors thatspend nine months of being that
person. And if you want to be anexpert and you want to grow into
that role, and you're leadingthis customer centric approach
through the leadership function,surely businesses need to tell
Matt, get out there. You'reselling into the. Financial
(25:00):
service industry. How manypeople have you spoken to? How
much do you truly know aboutthat? Isn't there something
that's missing in the marketthat we don't do...
Unknown (25:08):
Oh 100% and it's terrible in my market, because
it's often a junior model whereyou hire 20 year olds that know
how to use Tiktok more than theydo LinkedIn, but that's
therefore showing my age becauseI don't know how to use Tiktok,
and I know how to use LinkedIn,but it's really challenging, but
you can't it's a non negotiable.You absolutely cannot give up on
(25:30):
the fundamentals. And as atraining professional, as a
business coach and as anoperational director, it's right
back at the grassroots if Idon't have the right seeds to
plant in the first place. I amnot going to get the harvest
that I want. So it cannot beignored, it cannot be
understated, and you have towork really, really hard at
(25:52):
getting that right in the firstplace.
Matt Best (25:54):
That is a fantastic place for us to end the
conversation today. Charlotte,thank you so much to everyone
listening. Join us for part twoas we continue this
conversation.
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