September 29, 2024 • 24 mins
Jonny and Matt discuss their 5 leadership principles from lessons learnt from a 20+ year consultancy of over 1,000 clients. These include operational rigor, commercial alignment, and the power of a coaching culture in business leadership. They discuss how leaders can maintain discipline and effectiveness amidst the monotony of routine tasks, while also fostering a strong coaching culture that nurtures growth. Drawing on insights from their Roots and Shoots white paper and Patrick Lencioni's The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, they explore how aligning key functions across sales, marketing, HR, and finance can drive success.
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Episode Transcript
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Matt Best (00:00):
Hello, and welcome to the growth workshop podcast
Jonny, hi.
Great to see you again, how are you doing?
Jonny Adams (00:07):
Ah, very good.
Thank you, Matt.
Lovely to see you again.
We've rolled on a bit, bit more time sinceour last conversation, which is great.
Doing very well.
Thank you.
How are you?
Matt Best (00:15):
Good.
Yeah, very well.
Thanks.
So what's been happeningin your week this week?
Jonny Adams (00:20):
I do like this part of our conversation.
It actually gives me a great opportunityto reflect on some of the things
that's been going on with our clientsjust in the world in general as well.
I had a fantastic trip to Toronto,where we've worked with one of our
longstanding clients for many years.
Really interesting, about sort ofleadership focusing on some key leadership
(00:41):
principles and people really recognizingthe value of developing others.
And also developing themselves.
So that was a great takeaway.
Come back over the red eye flight landedbit of jet lag, but now I'm glad that
we're coming up towards the weekend.
What about you, Matt?
Matt Best (00:58):
Yeah nice, get that, that jet lag coming the other
way is horrible, isn't it?
Yeah, for me, I had another fun packedweek working with a lot of clients.
It's been fantasticbeing back face to face.
I know we've been living in thevirtual world for so long and
actually just getting back infront of people and in those sort
of workshops it's really engaging.
It's been really enjoyable.
So yeah had I had a really interestingconversation actually, again, on the
(01:21):
leadership piece with a with a client andthey've got all the sort of right ideas.
It's just how to put that into practice.
And sometimes it's all balancingthe process with the people.
And I know we're going to talka bit about that later today,
but just really interesting.
They're like, we've got all this inplace, but why are we struggling to.
Are we struggling to get it moving?
Yeah, I did some prep work with anothercolleague on how we're going to help
(01:42):
them in in tackling that challenge.
So it's great.
So in terms of today's conversation,Jonny, I think, the topic for
today is what are the 5 principlesof successful leadership?
And I think it's, yeah, this is areally interesting topic to dive into.
I'm sure people listening will havetheir own perspectives, maybe even have
their own principles as that they'vedelivered in different organizations
(02:04):
that they've worked in the past.
But, obviously we take these principlesor we created these principles
based on the thousand clients thatwe've worked with, all that SBR have
worked with over the years and manyof those on leadership programs.
So it's great for us to bring that.
That insight and that experienceto the table and share that with
everyone on the podcast today.
(02:24):
So what I thought might be good is ifwe just highlight what those principles
are, and then we can dive into it.
And as usual great to get yourperspective, and we can have a
bit of a conversation about it.
Jonny Adams (02:34):
Yeah.
And Matt, is it fair to say thatthese principles are from, our
understanding over the last sortof 20 years, the thousand clients
or so that we've worked with?
And, there are many principlesout there, which is the debate
that we're stoking here.
And these are just some of the principlesthat we've created, the five that we
have concluded in most recent times thatare valuable for that leadership role.
(02:56):
So I think that's really criticalthat we want people to also
critically analyze these principlesand think about their own.
Matt Best (03:02):
Yeah, indeed.
As ever, this is our sort ofperspective and our opinion.
And I think we've got that experience toleverage on, but it's not always right.
And there's probably hundreds ofprinciples out there that that are
appropriate in different settings.
Just to run through those fiveprinciples before we get into into
The meat of the conversation today.
So our first one being leadership iseverything and making sure that you're
(03:23):
recruiting the right people and howyou recruiting the right people into
leadership data is the second lookingat people versus metrics of balancing,
having good analysis, good data thatyou can analyze and understand and
identify trends within, but alsobalancing that with the individuals.
Operational rigor, how you createconsistency and effective habits in, in
(03:45):
leadership commercial alignment, thatclient centric approach, making sure
everyone's going in the same direction.
I think it's really important.
And then finally, to wrap them all upis that underlying coaching culture.
So providing the team with a realtrack to run on, having a supportive
view of leadership and focusingmore on the carrot than the stick.
(04:07):
So Jonny, I think those are the fivethat we've come up with, I'd love to
get your thoughts Jonny on the firstprinciple that leadership is everything.
What's that mean to you?
Jonny Adams (04:16):
Yeah.
And, great question.
Really like this first principleand these principles are
definitely universal, not uniform.
So when we have a look at that,I recently delivered a keynote at
a global leadership conference toone of our longstanding clients.
The client is in and around 100 millionEBITDA number just to give you an idea
(04:38):
around about 75 leaders across the globe.
And this principle is what Ishared to them in that 25 minutes.
And I aligned a narrative.
Now, I know it's contentioustalking about politics.
So please do forgive me.
But the the crucial part here is thatwhen we're thinking about leadership,
who are you recruiting into that role?
And do they have the capacity andthe capability to be successful?
(05:01):
Also thinking about that abilityto role model and I made an
alignment towards Boris Johnson.
Now, if you think about BorisJohnson 2016, the best sales
professional in the whole of theUnited Kingdom, what did he do?
He sold the dream.
He took us on a journey, helped usthink about Brexit then continued
(05:21):
to become the prime minister.
And again, sold the dream abouthow great of a leader he would be.
We all bought into that.
Let's not talk about the pandemic.
My point being is that not allgreat salespeople are great leaders.
So the first principle is that leadershipis everything, but making sure you've got
the right leader in the right position.
And recently, as I stated in Toronto,they have this kind of have Actually gone
(05:43):
out and not bought product specialists.
They've brought leadership specialismin and that has been a profound
change in terms of their performance.
So that is leadership iseverything is principle one.
Matt Best (05:53):
Great.
And you really you really took a riskthere going down the Boris Johnson
route, Jonny I implore your bravery.
I could see the, the comments goingwild and hear the clicks of people
clicking off, please don't leave us.
We promise that's the last bitof political garbage that we
that we attend to spend today.
So Jonny, the next piece orthe next principle is data
(06:14):
and people versus metrics.
And I think it's, this is areally interesting topic of how
to find the right balance between.
The people and focusing on theindividuals in the team, and then
what the numbers are telling you.
And I think that, there'sa starting point here.
I know we talked about, we've talkedabout this previously balancing what data
you're capturing, why you're capturingit, but more importantly, how you're
(06:36):
using it, what you're looking for.
What's your perspectivewhen it comes to data?
What would you say is the most importantaspect of that in terms of finding
the right balance between focusingon individuals and then focusing
on what the data is telling you.
Jonny Adams (06:52):
And yeah, and the reason for us together, probably
selecting this as a principle isthat, first of all, do you have data?
Do you have quantitative datathat can give you some insight?
And we live in the world of,overindulgence in information,
that information needs to be valid.
So let's check the validityof that and then let's set up
(07:12):
the appropriate dashboards.
A colleague of ours this week, we werebuilding out a maturity model, which
highlighted the right appropriatedashboards at the appropriate level.
So within that, what you've got thenis the metrics that you're currently
tracking inputs and those outputs.
That is just one story.
That's the important part of what we'resaying here is people versus metrics.
(07:35):
Once you look at the metrics, then whatyou want to be able to do is overlay
the people, the quantitative, thequalitative stuff that you can see, right?
And that is where I see time andtime again at the moment, Matt.
And I'd love to hear your thoughts.
I'm super passionate about this isthat people look at a dashboard,
they make a judgment, they go andthen try and change the course.
Okay.
(07:56):
So question is how often are you spendingshadowing, spending time observing,
looking at the right behaviors andmeasuring against competency framework
time and time again, at the momentI'm hearing Oh, I don't have time,
I would imagine if you overlaidsome of the data metrics that you've
got to some of the observations,you'd have a fantastic story.
So that principle is all about balancingthe difference between spending time with
(08:16):
the people, but also using data that isvalid, what's your thoughts on that, Matt,
and what's your view on the principle?
Matt Best (08:24):
Yeah, I think you said it there Jonny, is balance.
It's about balance, and it'sabout looking at the right things.
I've been in.
I'm sure we've all been in those sorts ofpipeline reviews where someone turns up.
We're looking at high level, toplevel numbers, and we work a lot with
organizations to focus on the inputsas opposed to the outputs as those
really critically leading indicatorsin sales and effective sales.
(08:46):
And so often you walk into and as a lead,you walk into a, an exec briefing and
maybe get a bit of a kicking on pipelineor a kicking on on closed sales and that
then when leaving the room that sortof carried with you and that, that can
guide the way that you then behave withthe team is that why are we not there?
And it just, it doesn't foster aproductive conversation, in my opinion.
(09:08):
And I think it's just, how do we,again, to your point, take the right
metrics, look at them in the right way.
Coach the team on how to understandthem and how to adapt their own, their
own well, their ability to talk tothose numbers, but also what they do
that impacts those numbers and startto create that across the different
(09:29):
layers within the organization.
I think that's key.
And then, like you said how often, howmuch time are they spending shadowing?
How much time they're spending actuallyin one-to-one coaching sessions, or how
much time are they spending in an Excelspreadsheet and using that as a, a big
sort of dirty stick to beat people with.
Jonny Adams (09:44):
Yeah, I think that's that's fantastic.
It's so integral.
Matt Best (09:48):
So, leading on from that into our next one, which is operational rigor.
And this sort of talks to thosesort of consistency in the habits.
And this is probably where it'sreally most important to balance
those sort of metrics and people.
And this talk, this principle talks tohow operationally and as a leader, you
(10:08):
are maintaining the right cadence withyour team, but you're maintaining the
right consistency and habit in the waythat you coach, in the way that you
deliver in the way that you operationallyrun your team, how often are you
reviewing key metrics with your team?
What are you, how are you usingthat to then guide the team forward?
It's interesting.
I am in a previous life.
I picked up the nickname,Matt Best Efficiency.
(10:29):
I had you to my focuson operational rigor.
So it's something that'svery close to my heart.
What does it mean to you, Jonny?
Jonny Adams (10:37):
Oh my gosh, you shouldn't have told me that.
That is, that's sticking.
That is, that's going to go across ourglobal consultancy team very quickly.
Great thing about teams isyou can just pump it in there.
News to all.
Awesome, Matt.
Thank you for raising thispoint and working with you.
You have a fantastic approach towardsthe operational side of things.
(10:58):
The job that you do, but notonly that you support clients
with the account management andthe customer success process.
So I can see that within you as aconsultant, what operational rigor
means to me, quite simple is aboutdiscipline and you've got to be aware.
If you're a middle manageror a leader that some of the
work that we do is monotonous.
So be conscious around how you did,deal with monotony because, every day.
(11:20):
Every week, every month,it's the same thing.
Check the stats, check your people,check your process, use your
tools and technology to help you.
And every single week, what wewant to be able to see is that
you're doing your one to ones.
You're doing your activities and it shouldbe all about inputs, drive the outputs.
And importantly, if your operationalrigor is successful, your employee net
(11:44):
promoter score should be fantastic.
Attrition in terms of the peoplebeing regrettable should reduce
and ultimately productivity, i.
e.
revenue should improve those three clearmetrics should be the basis of all of that
great operational rigor and discipline.
What about you, Matt?
Best Efficiency?
Matt Best (12:05):
You're not going to live that one down.
I would agree, Jonny, I think goingback to the appreciating understanding
that there is some repetition inthe role, especially in that middle
management role within a business,I think the interesting thing here
is, as you said, is balancing that.
I think the important thing to sayhere as well, though, is that whilst,
(12:26):
you might have some repetitioncoaching, your team and having really
great people conversations shouldfeel it should feel really engaging.
If you really if that's somethingthat you want to do, as part of the,
as a leader it's a fundamental skill.
And it's something youcan continue to hone.
And I think as ever with.
With the sort of monotonous tasks,it's always challenging yourself to
think about how you can make thosemore efficient, how you can automate.
(12:49):
But at the same time, realizing toyour point that it is an ongoing
recurring thing and you can't leaveit alone for three months, expect
to come back and it's still working.
Jonny Adams (12:58):
And Matt, just conscious around it, because
you're absolutely right.
And thank you for keeping me incheck because obviously I've got
to be in my bonnet about that.
And I've used maybe someof those particular words.
We work in, we live inthe world of growth.
Okay, so you're thinking about if targetsare being set for businesses for 2024
at the moment, they're likely to be anelevation of growth targets increase, but
(13:22):
we know that comes with that is some ofthe key principles like operational rigor.
If the target's going to increase ina business by 10 percent each year,
what, why is operational rigor soimportant for you to continue to hit
those 10 percent growth goals each year?
Yeah.
Matt Best (13:37):
That's a question we should be asking all of our clients, is is,
what why do we think that's important?
And it's about effectiveness, isn't it?
And discipline, like you said,understanding the process,
understanding what it takes.
So then being able to map what that lookslike and then stay accountable to it.
And that needs, and that requiresdiscipline, it requires the right habits
(13:58):
and it requires for a lot of practitionerson the ground, the support of their leader
and being able to execute against that.
So moving on to our fourth principleand looking at commercial alignment.
And this is you've got a lovely quotethat you shared with me previously.
I'd like you to share again aboutrowing in the same direction.
And I think, as part of a part ofcommercial alignment and a client
(14:21):
centric organization, and we've at SBRhere, we've recently published a or
coauthored a white paper around a clientcentric approach and everyone in the
business guided towards the same outcome.
I had a similar conversation witha leader in a customer success.
Function of a managed servicesclient just earlier this week,
(14:41):
who reiterated to his team that.
Customer success is all about joints isa responsibility of the entire business
to make our customers successful.
And that really aligns to thatsame, we talk about here commercial
alignment, which is understanding theneed for everyone to have that sort
of commit to look at things througha commercial lens, but it really
(15:01):
starts with that client centricity.
So yeah, Jonny share with us that quotethat you shared with me just before our
recording here today, would you, andthen I'd love to hear your perspective
and your take on a commercial alignment.
Jonny Adams (15:15):
Yeah, I think that's a great point.
And I think the white paper you'retalking about is the Roots and
Shoots paper, if I'm not mistaken.
Something actually that we workwith a great marketing partner.
And funnily enough, when we're talkingabout the alignment between sales
and marketing, the first instance,they're hugely passionate about that
is that everyone owns the number.
So how do you drive the awareness ofmarketing, producing the number as,
(15:40):
as well as sales, rather than thissort of finger pointing emotion.
I think for the last 10 years,that's been been thought of but but
businesses have tried to deal withthat, with the evolution of CROs.
But I guess what we're talkingabout here is commercial alignment.
How do we align allkey functions together?
And the quote that you talked about thereis actually from one of my favorite books.
And if you've never read it or everbeen on a training course, it's
(16:02):
called, it's from Patrick Lencionithe five dysfunctions of a team.
And this was also shared in thekeynote as I was talking about before.
So I shared to the audience, if you couldget all the people in an organization
rowing in the same direction, you coulddominate any industry in any market
against any competition at any time.
(16:23):
As I said, that was by Patrick Lencioni.
That's a pretty profound,pretty punchy statement.
What's your thoughts on that, Matt?
Matt Best (16:30):
I 100 percent support that.
I've been in business and actually it'sone of those things I think where, and
this isn't, universally true by anymeans but the examples I've seen of
where this where that really comes trueis you look at those sort of challenger
startup markets and there's a teamof a dozen people and they are, they
are all rowing in the same direction.
They are all 100 percentfocused on the goal.
(16:52):
As that business grows anddevelops, things start to creak.
And you get this.
My priority is going, you're goingleft and you're telling me and you're
telling me your priority is going right.
And we get that sort of We start toveer off down different down different
sort of streams that lead off the river.
It's a terrible analogy, but, to tryand extend the rowing analogy there.
(17:14):
But I think the interesting thingis how to exactly as Patrick
says, how do you maintain that?
And how, but more importantly, how doyou maintain that as your business grows?
And I think, as you said, in the Roots andShoots paper that we've co authored with
our with one of our marketing partners.
It talks to the marketingand sales collaboration.
But for me, it's also really important asyou go into when you look at the sales,
(17:37):
account management, customer success tooperations alignment, and how those parts
of the business work together as well.
Jonny Adams (17:44):
Yeah.
And not just to stop there,but HR and finance, right?
If finance don't buy into the comp plans,if HR don't buy into the competency
frameworks, my gosh, what do we getis, oh, just a tick box exercise or
no, why are we paying sales that much?
Funny enough, if we pay them in the rightbehaviors, then ultimately we might get
towards that 10 percent growth that wewere speaking about on operational rigor.
Yeah.
(18:04):
Commercial alignment, it'sa great topic at the moment.
It is a hard bit of graft.
And also it's going to require awhole bunch of things, but that
alignment, I do truly feel can makethat marginal gain improvement to
enable you to reach your goals.
Matt Best (18:20):
Yeah.
And Jonny, I'd argue it'smore than a marginal gain.
I think it's a significant gain, anda significant improvement looking
your business top down and bottom up.
Thank you.
And then our last principleof coaching culture.
And this for me is what sortof wraps around all of the four
principles, but indeed any principlethat you adopt in leadership.
(18:42):
And that's really talking to, how todevelop a rich coaching culture, a culture
of support, providing a clear track to runon, for your team, aligning to those, that
data principle that we mentioned earlieris it really clear what your team needs?
How are you supporting your teams?
Jonny, you mentioned spending sufficienttime with the team in shadowing in
(19:06):
coaching, one to ones so important.
And just having that culture of support.
Rather, and I differentiate this.
We think about management versusleadership, and management is we've
all seen those those little cartoons onLinkedIn where the managers, shouting
and pushing everyone up the hill firstand the leaders at the top of the
hill, dragging everyone up after them.
(19:26):
And I think that's a really importantthing to think about when we think about
that coaching culture, you want to beable to sit down with your leader and
have a conversation, be a bit vulnerable,ask for support and for help without the
fear of being berated or the fear of,yeah, the fact that you maybe have failed
or not done as well in something thatmeans that your managers or your leader
(19:47):
is going to look at you differently andnot support you in the way you need it.
I think that for me is \really whata coaching culture is trying, is
encouraging and enabling your leadersto have really effective, coaching
conversations with their team to act asa coach and into a mentor, but not as
a manager, going down a list of tasks.
(20:08):
Have you done this?
Have you done this?
Have you done this,right onto the next one?
We know that's not effective.
What?
What does it?
What does it scream out for you?
Jonny, coaching culture?
Jonny Adams (20:17):
I love your analogy of the sort of that
trek or that mountain approach.
It actually made me think back asyou're talking there to some of
the occasions that I've had as a, adirect report to some of the leaders
that I've had or been fortunate orunfortunate enough to work with.
And also from our position of seeingit what happens with our clients.
The point being here is I seethis coaching culture principle
(20:37):
is again, a universal principle,but it wraps around the other four
principles we've spoken about today.
When I talk about wraparound is that we'rereally focusing on if that is a really
great culture within your organization,that not only is the sales coaching the
sales, but marketing is coaching sales.
Sales is coaching marketing.
Marketing is coaching finance.
(20:58):
Now we're starting to align thecommercial piece, operational
rigor, going to have a culture talksabout it's living and breathing.
It's in your ecosystem.
Therefore operationally, itwill be living and breathing
in the processes that you do.
The important part is that when we'rethinking about coaching culture,
there's lots of data to suggest that,you need to coach people between three
(21:18):
to five hours per person per month.
Yeah, that's optimum, but forevery single business, you
might need to just do one hour.
Really quality hour, ormaybe it's eight hours.
It really does depend on the businessand what are the the lag indicators
suggesting, because all of thatinput is gonna drive the output.
I guess lastly from a coachingculture is that I talk about
the wraparound or the barrier.
(21:39):
Fundamentally, a great culturewill make sure that you drive
to succeed your strategy now.
If you have a really stinky cultureand you're less likely to achieve that
strategy and the overall outcomes,and that will only be, at detriment
of your own goals and what you want toachieve as a, an individual contributor,
sales manager or professional.
So I would say that'sthe piece there, man.
Matt Best (22:02):
Yeah, I think you're right.
I like your phraseology there as well.
Stinky culture.
We've all seen those sort of stinkycultures and the impact that it has.
And yeah, I think really importantin culture, starts at the top, but
actually has to exist everywhere.
And it's interesting, Jonny, you talkabout the three to five hours and it might
only be one, I've worked with teams wherethey're doing six hours, but those six
(22:24):
hours have been soaked, have been poor.
And actually it doesn't giveyou the results that you want.
Three effective hours is betterthan 10 ineffective hours.
So again, just thinking abouthow you're delivering that in
your business as well, and whatyou're supporting and reinforcing.
Jonny Adams (22:40):
And Matt just to add on that, and again, When we're talking to
leaders, which we do week in week out,and we deliver the course we do at SBR, I
typically ask a question that I don't wanta response from people, but just to think
about is that, as a leader, or when youthink about your leader, are you looking
forward to having that session with them.
(23:04):
And the question I asked there is thatthey normally go, and what that does
is then it asks the question is that,are you having a great relationship
with the person that's leading you?
So you get to think, Oh, is that valuable?
Equally?
Most leaders are then looking down andthink about their team and go crikey,
the sessions that I'm doing probablythey aren't adding as much impact.
I don't set a purpose so thatcoaching culture isn't being laid out.
(23:25):
It's a tick box exercise for many, andactually many don't even tick the box.
They actually delete the one to one in thediary because they don't feel confident
or capable of delivering a great session.
I'll get off my soapbox, but I'm hugelypassionate about these five principles.
I think it would add value to bothindividuals and businesses achieving.
Matt Best (23:44):
Absolutely, Jonny.
And, thank you to to you and thankyou to everyone who joined us today.
I'm certain that you may haveyour own perspective, right?
You may have your own principles thatyou follow within your business, but
hopefully what we've done today isshare five really great foundational
principles to successful leadershipalongside some really great examples
(24:05):
of how they've of how they can impactyour business and how they can help
you in being successful as a leader.
So with that, I'd encourage you to thinkabout these and how you can incorporate
some of this into your own leadershipculture into your own organization.
And so we very much look forward toseeing you on the next podcast and Jonny,
(24:27):
thanks so much again for your insightand contribution in the podcast today.
Jonny Adams (24:33):
Awesome.
Thanks Matt.
Cheers now.
Matt Best (24:35):
For more insights, make sure you subscribe.
And if you enjoy the journey,don't forget to leave us a review.
Your feedback fuels our growth.
Until next time, keep up thatforward thinking mindset.
Goodbye.
Hello, and welcome to the growth workshop podcast
Jonny, hi.
Great to see you again, how are you doing?
Jonny Adams (00:07):
Ah, very good.
Thank you, Matt.
Lovely to see you again.
We've rolled on a bit, bit more time sinceour last conversation, which is great.
Doing very well.
Thank you.
How are you?
Matt Best (00:15):
Good.
Yeah, very well.
Thanks.
So what's been happeningin your week this week?
Jonny Adams (00:20):
I do like this part of our conversation.
It actually gives me a great opportunityto reflect on some of the things
that's been going on with our clientsjust in the world in general as well.
I had a fantastic trip to Toronto,where we've worked with one of our
longstanding clients for many years.
Really interesting, about sort ofleadership focusing on some key leadership
(00:41):
principles and people really recognizingthe value of developing others.
And also developing themselves.
So that was a great takeaway.
Come back over the red eye flight landedbit of jet lag, but now I'm glad that
we're coming up towards the weekend.
What about you, Matt?
Matt Best (00:58):
Yeah nice, get that, that jet lag coming the other
way is horrible, isn't it?
Yeah, for me, I had another fun packedweek working with a lot of clients.
It's been fantasticbeing back face to face.
I know we've been living in thevirtual world for so long and
actually just getting back infront of people and in those sort
of workshops it's really engaging.
It's been really enjoyable.
So yeah had I had a really interestingconversation actually, again, on the
(01:21):
leadership piece with a with a client andthey've got all the sort of right ideas.
It's just how to put that into practice.
And sometimes it's all balancingthe process with the people.
And I know we're going to talka bit about that later today,
but just really interesting.
They're like, we've got all this inplace, but why are we struggling to.
Are we struggling to get it moving?
Yeah, I did some prep work with anothercolleague on how we're going to help
(01:42):
them in in tackling that challenge.
So it's great.
So in terms of today's conversation,Jonny, I think, the topic for
today is what are the 5 principlesof successful leadership?
And I think it's, yeah, this is areally interesting topic to dive into.
I'm sure people listening will havetheir own perspectives, maybe even have
their own principles as that they'vedelivered in different organizations
(02:04):
that they've worked in the past.
But, obviously we take these principlesor we created these principles
based on the thousand clients thatwe've worked with, all that SBR have
worked with over the years and manyof those on leadership programs.
So it's great for us to bring that.
That insight and that experienceto the table and share that with
everyone on the podcast today.
(02:24):
So what I thought might be good is ifwe just highlight what those principles
are, and then we can dive into it.
And as usual great to get yourperspective, and we can have a
bit of a conversation about it.
Jonny Adams (02:34):
Yeah.
And Matt, is it fair to say thatthese principles are from, our
understanding over the last sortof 20 years, the thousand clients
or so that we've worked with?
And, there are many principlesout there, which is the debate
that we're stoking here.
And these are just some of the principlesthat we've created, the five that we
have concluded in most recent times thatare valuable for that leadership role.
(02:56):
So I think that's really criticalthat we want people to also
critically analyze these principlesand think about their own.
Matt Best (03:02):
Yeah, indeed.
As ever, this is our sort ofperspective and our opinion.
And I think we've got that experience toleverage on, but it's not always right.
And there's probably hundreds ofprinciples out there that that are
appropriate in different settings.
Just to run through those fiveprinciples before we get into into
The meat of the conversation today.
So our first one being leadership iseverything and making sure that you're
(03:23):
recruiting the right people and howyou recruiting the right people into
leadership data is the second lookingat people versus metrics of balancing,
having good analysis, good data thatyou can analyze and understand and
identify trends within, but alsobalancing that with the individuals.
Operational rigor, how you createconsistency and effective habits in, in
(03:45):
leadership commercial alignment, thatclient centric approach, making sure
everyone's going in the same direction.
I think it's really important.
And then finally, to wrap them all upis that underlying coaching culture.
So providing the team with a realtrack to run on, having a supportive
view of leadership and focusingmore on the carrot than the stick.
(04:07):
So Jonny, I think those are the fivethat we've come up with, I'd love to
get your thoughts Jonny on the firstprinciple that leadership is everything.
What's that mean to you?
Jonny Adams (04:16):
Yeah.
And, great question.
Really like this first principleand these principles are
definitely universal, not uniform.
So when we have a look at that,I recently delivered a keynote at
a global leadership conference toone of our longstanding clients.
The client is in and around 100 millionEBITDA number just to give you an idea
(04:38):
around about 75 leaders across the globe.
And this principle is what Ishared to them in that 25 minutes.
And I aligned a narrative.
Now, I know it's contentioustalking about politics.
So please do forgive me.
But the the crucial part here is thatwhen we're thinking about leadership,
who are you recruiting into that role?
And do they have the capacity andthe capability to be successful?
(05:01):
Also thinking about that abilityto role model and I made an
alignment towards Boris Johnson.
Now, if you think about BorisJohnson 2016, the best sales
professional in the whole of theUnited Kingdom, what did he do?
He sold the dream.
He took us on a journey, helped usthink about Brexit then continued
(05:21):
to become the prime minister.
And again, sold the dream abouthow great of a leader he would be.
We all bought into that.
Let's not talk about the pandemic.
My point being is that not allgreat salespeople are great leaders.
So the first principle is that leadershipis everything, but making sure you've got
the right leader in the right position.
And recently, as I stated in Toronto,they have this kind of have Actually gone
(05:43):
out and not bought product specialists.
They've brought leadership specialismin and that has been a profound
change in terms of their performance.
So that is leadership iseverything is principle one.
Matt Best (05:53):
Great.
And you really you really took a riskthere going down the Boris Johnson
route, Jonny I implore your bravery.
I could see the, the comments goingwild and hear the clicks of people
clicking off, please don't leave us.
We promise that's the last bitof political garbage that we
that we attend to spend today.
So Jonny, the next piece orthe next principle is data
(06:14):
and people versus metrics.
And I think it's, this is areally interesting topic of how
to find the right balance between.
The people and focusing on theindividuals in the team, and then
what the numbers are telling you.
And I think that, there'sa starting point here.
I know we talked about, we've talkedabout this previously balancing what data
you're capturing, why you're capturingit, but more importantly, how you're
(06:36):
using it, what you're looking for.
What's your perspectivewhen it comes to data?
What would you say is the most importantaspect of that in terms of finding
the right balance between focusingon individuals and then focusing
on what the data is telling you.
Jonny Adams (06:52):
And yeah, and the reason for us together, probably
selecting this as a principle isthat, first of all, do you have data?
Do you have quantitative datathat can give you some insight?
And we live in the world of,overindulgence in information,
that information needs to be valid.
So let's check the validityof that and then let's set up
(07:12):
the appropriate dashboards.
A colleague of ours this week, we werebuilding out a maturity model, which
highlighted the right appropriatedashboards at the appropriate level.
So within that, what you've got thenis the metrics that you're currently
tracking inputs and those outputs.
That is just one story.
That's the important part of what we'resaying here is people versus metrics.
(07:35):
Once you look at the metrics, then whatyou want to be able to do is overlay
the people, the quantitative, thequalitative stuff that you can see, right?
And that is where I see time andtime again at the moment, Matt.
And I'd love to hear your thoughts.
I'm super passionate about this isthat people look at a dashboard,
they make a judgment, they go andthen try and change the course.
Okay.
(07:56):
So question is how often are you spendingshadowing, spending time observing,
looking at the right behaviors andmeasuring against competency framework
time and time again, at the momentI'm hearing Oh, I don't have time,
I would imagine if you overlaidsome of the data metrics that you've
got to some of the observations,you'd have a fantastic story.
So that principle is all about balancingthe difference between spending time with
(08:16):
the people, but also using data that isvalid, what's your thoughts on that, Matt,
and what's your view on the principle?
Matt Best (08:24):
Yeah, I think you said it there Jonny, is balance.
It's about balance, and it'sabout looking at the right things.
I've been in.
I'm sure we've all been in those sorts ofpipeline reviews where someone turns up.
We're looking at high level, toplevel numbers, and we work a lot with
organizations to focus on the inputsas opposed to the outputs as those
really critically leading indicatorsin sales and effective sales.
(08:46):
And so often you walk into and as a lead,you walk into a, an exec briefing and
maybe get a bit of a kicking on pipelineor a kicking on on closed sales and that
then when leaving the room that sortof carried with you and that, that can
guide the way that you then behave withthe team is that why are we not there?
And it just, it doesn't foster aproductive conversation, in my opinion.
(09:08):
And I think it's just, how do we,again, to your point, take the right
metrics, look at them in the right way.
Coach the team on how to understandthem and how to adapt their own, their
own well, their ability to talk tothose numbers, but also what they do
that impacts those numbers and startto create that across the different
(09:29):
layers within the organization.
I think that's key.
And then, like you said how often, howmuch time are they spending shadowing?
How much time they're spending actuallyin one-to-one coaching sessions, or how
much time are they spending in an Excelspreadsheet and using that as a, a big
sort of dirty stick to beat people with.
Jonny Adams (09:44):
Yeah, I think that's that's fantastic.
It's so integral.
Matt Best (09:48):
So, leading on from that into our next one, which is operational rigor.
And this sort of talks to thosesort of consistency in the habits.
And this is probably where it'sreally most important to balance
those sort of metrics and people.
And this talk, this principle talks tohow operationally and as a leader, you
(10:08):
are maintaining the right cadence withyour team, but you're maintaining the
right consistency and habit in the waythat you coach, in the way that you
deliver in the way that you operationallyrun your team, how often are you
reviewing key metrics with your team?
What are you, how are you usingthat to then guide the team forward?
It's interesting.
I am in a previous life.
I picked up the nickname,Matt Best Efficiency.
(10:29):
I had you to my focuson operational rigor.
So it's something that'svery close to my heart.
What does it mean to you, Jonny?
Jonny Adams (10:37):
Oh my gosh, you shouldn't have told me that.
That is, that's sticking.
That is, that's going to go across ourglobal consultancy team very quickly.
Great thing about teams isyou can just pump it in there.
News to all.
Awesome, Matt.
Thank you for raising thispoint and working with you.
You have a fantastic approach towardsthe operational side of things.
(10:58):
The job that you do, but notonly that you support clients
with the account management andthe customer success process.
So I can see that within you as aconsultant, what operational rigor
means to me, quite simple is aboutdiscipline and you've got to be aware.
If you're a middle manageror a leader that some of the
work that we do is monotonous.
So be conscious around how you did,deal with monotony because, every day.
(11:20):
Every week, every month,it's the same thing.
Check the stats, check your people,check your process, use your
tools and technology to help you.
And every single week, what wewant to be able to see is that
you're doing your one to ones.
You're doing your activities and it shouldbe all about inputs, drive the outputs.
And importantly, if your operationalrigor is successful, your employee net
(11:44):
promoter score should be fantastic.
Attrition in terms of the peoplebeing regrettable should reduce
and ultimately productivity, i.
e.
revenue should improve those three clearmetrics should be the basis of all of that
great operational rigor and discipline.
What about you, Matt?
Best Efficiency?
Matt Best (12:05):
You're not going to live that one down.
I would agree, Jonny, I think goingback to the appreciating understanding
that there is some repetition inthe role, especially in that middle
management role within a business,I think the interesting thing here
is, as you said, is balancing that.
I think the important thing to sayhere as well, though, is that whilst,
(12:26):
you might have some repetitioncoaching, your team and having really
great people conversations shouldfeel it should feel really engaging.
If you really if that's somethingthat you want to do, as part of the,
as a leader it's a fundamental skill.
And it's something youcan continue to hone.
And I think as ever with.
With the sort of monotonous tasks,it's always challenging yourself to
think about how you can make thosemore efficient, how you can automate.
(12:49):
But at the same time, realizing toyour point that it is an ongoing
recurring thing and you can't leaveit alone for three months, expect
to come back and it's still working.
Jonny Adams (12:58):
And Matt, just conscious around it, because
you're absolutely right.
And thank you for keeping me incheck because obviously I've got
to be in my bonnet about that.
And I've used maybe someof those particular words.
We work in, we live inthe world of growth.
Okay, so you're thinking about if targetsare being set for businesses for 2024
at the moment, they're likely to be anelevation of growth targets increase, but
(13:22):
we know that comes with that is some ofthe key principles like operational rigor.
If the target's going to increase ina business by 10 percent each year,
what, why is operational rigor soimportant for you to continue to hit
those 10 percent growth goals each year?
Yeah.
Matt Best (13:37):
That's a question we should be asking all of our clients, is is,
what why do we think that's important?
And it's about effectiveness, isn't it?
And discipline, like you said,understanding the process,
understanding what it takes.
So then being able to map what that lookslike and then stay accountable to it.
And that needs, and that requiresdiscipline, it requires the right habits
(13:58):
and it requires for a lot of practitionerson the ground, the support of their leader
and being able to execute against that.
So moving on to our fourth principleand looking at commercial alignment.
And this is you've got a lovely quotethat you shared with me previously.
I'd like you to share again aboutrowing in the same direction.
And I think, as part of a part ofcommercial alignment and a client
(14:21):
centric organization, and we've at SBRhere, we've recently published a or
coauthored a white paper around a clientcentric approach and everyone in the
business guided towards the same outcome.
I had a similar conversation witha leader in a customer success.
Function of a managed servicesclient just earlier this week,
(14:41):
who reiterated to his team that.
Customer success is all about joints isa responsibility of the entire business
to make our customers successful.
And that really aligns to thatsame, we talk about here commercial
alignment, which is understanding theneed for everyone to have that sort
of commit to look at things througha commercial lens, but it really
(15:01):
starts with that client centricity.
So yeah, Jonny share with us that quotethat you shared with me just before our
recording here today, would you, andthen I'd love to hear your perspective
and your take on a commercial alignment.
Jonny Adams (15:15):
Yeah, I think that's a great point.
And I think the white paper you'retalking about is the Roots and
Shoots paper, if I'm not mistaken.
Something actually that we workwith a great marketing partner.
And funnily enough, when we're talkingabout the alignment between sales
and marketing, the first instance,they're hugely passionate about that
is that everyone owns the number.
So how do you drive the awareness ofmarketing, producing the number as,
(15:40):
as well as sales, rather than thissort of finger pointing emotion.
I think for the last 10 years,that's been been thought of but but
businesses have tried to deal withthat, with the evolution of CROs.
But I guess what we're talkingabout here is commercial alignment.
How do we align allkey functions together?
And the quote that you talked about thereis actually from one of my favorite books.
And if you've never read it or everbeen on a training course, it's
(16:02):
called, it's from Patrick Lencionithe five dysfunctions of a team.
And this was also shared in thekeynote as I was talking about before.
So I shared to the audience, if you couldget all the people in an organization
rowing in the same direction, you coulddominate any industry in any market
against any competition at any time.
(16:23):
As I said, that was by Patrick Lencioni.
That's a pretty profound,pretty punchy statement.
What's your thoughts on that, Matt?
Matt Best (16:30):
I 100 percent support that.
I've been in business and actually it'sone of those things I think where, and
this isn't, universally true by anymeans but the examples I've seen of
where this where that really comes trueis you look at those sort of challenger
startup markets and there's a teamof a dozen people and they are, they
are all rowing in the same direction.
They are all 100 percentfocused on the goal.
(16:52):
As that business grows anddevelops, things start to creak.
And you get this.
My priority is going, you're goingleft and you're telling me and you're
telling me your priority is going right.
And we get that sort of We start toveer off down different down different
sort of streams that lead off the river.
It's a terrible analogy, but, to tryand extend the rowing analogy there.
(17:14):
But I think the interesting thingis how to exactly as Patrick
says, how do you maintain that?
And how, but more importantly, how doyou maintain that as your business grows?
And I think, as you said, in the Roots andShoots paper that we've co authored with
our with one of our marketing partners.
It talks to the marketingand sales collaboration.
But for me, it's also really important asyou go into when you look at the sales,
(17:37):
account management, customer success tooperations alignment, and how those parts
of the business work together as well.
Jonny Adams (17:44):
Yeah.
And not just to stop there,but HR and finance, right?
If finance don't buy into the comp plans,if HR don't buy into the competency
frameworks, my gosh, what do we getis, oh, just a tick box exercise or
no, why are we paying sales that much?
Funny enough, if we pay them in the rightbehaviors, then ultimately we might get
towards that 10 percent growth that wewere speaking about on operational rigor.
Yeah.
(18:04):
Commercial alignment, it'sa great topic at the moment.
It is a hard bit of graft.
And also it's going to require awhole bunch of things, but that
alignment, I do truly feel can makethat marginal gain improvement to
enable you to reach your goals.
Matt Best (18:20):
Yeah.
And Jonny, I'd argue it'smore than a marginal gain.
I think it's a significant gain, anda significant improvement looking
your business top down and bottom up.
Thank you.
And then our last principleof coaching culture.
And this for me is what sortof wraps around all of the four
principles, but indeed any principlethat you adopt in leadership.
(18:42):
And that's really talking to, how todevelop a rich coaching culture, a culture
of support, providing a clear track to runon, for your team, aligning to those, that
data principle that we mentioned earlieris it really clear what your team needs?
How are you supporting your teams?
Jonny, you mentioned spending sufficienttime with the team in shadowing in
(19:06):
coaching, one to ones so important.
And just having that culture of support.
Rather, and I differentiate this.
We think about management versusleadership, and management is we've
all seen those those little cartoons onLinkedIn where the managers, shouting
and pushing everyone up the hill firstand the leaders at the top of the
hill, dragging everyone up after them.
(19:26):
And I think that's a really importantthing to think about when we think about
that coaching culture, you want to beable to sit down with your leader and
have a conversation, be a bit vulnerable,ask for support and for help without the
fear of being berated or the fear of,yeah, the fact that you maybe have failed
or not done as well in something thatmeans that your managers or your leader
(19:47):
is going to look at you differently andnot support you in the way you need it.
I think that for me is \really whata coaching culture is trying, is
encouraging and enabling your leadersto have really effective, coaching
conversations with their team to act asa coach and into a mentor, but not as
a manager, going down a list of tasks.
(20:08):
Have you done this?
Have you done this?
Have you done this,right onto the next one?
We know that's not effective.
What?
What does it?
What does it scream out for you?
Jonny, coaching culture?
Jonny Adams (20:17):
I love your analogy of the sort of that
trek or that mountain approach.
It actually made me think back asyou're talking there to some of
the occasions that I've had as a, adirect report to some of the leaders
that I've had or been fortunate orunfortunate enough to work with.
And also from our position of seeingit what happens with our clients.
The point being here is I seethis coaching culture principle
(20:37):
is again, a universal principle,but it wraps around the other four
principles we've spoken about today.
When I talk about wraparound is that we'rereally focusing on if that is a really
great culture within your organization,that not only is the sales coaching the
sales, but marketing is coaching sales.
Sales is coaching marketing.
Marketing is coaching finance.
(20:58):
Now we're starting to align thecommercial piece, operational
rigor, going to have a culture talksabout it's living and breathing.
It's in your ecosystem.
Therefore operationally, itwill be living and breathing
in the processes that you do.
The important part is that when we'rethinking about coaching culture,
there's lots of data to suggest that,you need to coach people between three
(21:18):
to five hours per person per month.
Yeah, that's optimum, but forevery single business, you
might need to just do one hour.
Really quality hour, ormaybe it's eight hours.
It really does depend on the businessand what are the the lag indicators
suggesting, because all of thatinput is gonna drive the output.
I guess lastly from a coachingculture is that I talk about
the wraparound or the barrier.
(21:39):
Fundamentally, a great culturewill make sure that you drive
to succeed your strategy now.
If you have a really stinky cultureand you're less likely to achieve that
strategy and the overall outcomes,and that will only be, at detriment
of your own goals and what you want toachieve as a, an individual contributor,
sales manager or professional.
So I would say that'sthe piece there, man.
Matt Best (22:02):
Yeah, I think you're right.
I like your phraseology there as well.
Stinky culture.
We've all seen those sort of stinkycultures and the impact that it has.
And yeah, I think really importantin culture, starts at the top, but
actually has to exist everywhere.
And it's interesting, Jonny, you talkabout the three to five hours and it might
only be one, I've worked with teams wherethey're doing six hours, but those six
(22:24):
hours have been soaked, have been poor.
And actually it doesn't giveyou the results that you want.
Three effective hours is betterthan 10 ineffective hours.
So again, just thinking abouthow you're delivering that in
your business as well, and whatyou're supporting and reinforcing.
Jonny Adams (22:40):
And Matt just to add on that, and again, When we're talking to
leaders, which we do week in week out,and we deliver the course we do at SBR, I
typically ask a question that I don't wanta response from people, but just to think
about is that, as a leader, or when youthink about your leader, are you looking
forward to having that session with them.
(23:04):
And the question I asked there is thatthey normally go, and what that does
is then it asks the question is that,are you having a great relationship
with the person that's leading you?
So you get to think, Oh, is that valuable?
Equally?
Most leaders are then looking down andthink about their team and go crikey,
the sessions that I'm doing probablythey aren't adding as much impact.
I don't set a purpose so thatcoaching culture isn't being laid out.
(23:25):
It's a tick box exercise for many, andactually many don't even tick the box.
They actually delete the one to one in thediary because they don't feel confident
or capable of delivering a great session.
I'll get off my soapbox, but I'm hugelypassionate about these five principles.
I think it would add value to bothindividuals and businesses achieving.
Matt Best (23:44):
Absolutely, Jonny.
And, thank you to to you and thankyou to everyone who joined us today.
I'm certain that you may haveyour own perspective, right?
You may have your own principles thatyou follow within your business, but
hopefully what we've done today isshare five really great foundational
principles to successful leadershipalongside some really great examples
(24:05):
of how they've of how they can impactyour business and how they can help
you in being successful as a leader.
So with that, I'd encourage you to thinkabout these and how you can incorporate
some of this into your own leadershipculture into your own organization.
And so we very much look forward toseeing you on the next podcast and Jonny,
(24:27):
thanks so much again for your insightand contribution in the podcast today.
Jonny Adams (24:33):
Awesome.
Thanks Matt.
Cheers now.
Matt Best (24:35):
For more insights, make sure you subscribe.
And if you enjoy the journey,don't forget to leave us a review.
Your feedback fuels our growth.
Until next time, keep up thatforward thinking mindset.
Goodbye.
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