July 31, 2025 • 37 mins
Dr. Michael Nagler, an award-winning school superintendent from New York, shares his vision for reimagining education in the digital age where content knowledge alone is no longer sufficient. Through his 17 years of leadership in the Mineola School District, Dr. Nagler has pioneered approaches that prioritize skills development and student agency. His stance on cell phones in schools (spoiler alert: he’s not in favor of the rush to ban them) is just one of many intriguing ideas we discuss in this episode.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Hangout Podcast.
I'm your host, david Shoretta.
Come on in and hang out.
In this episode, I wasprivileged to sit down with Dr
Mike Nagler.
Dr Nagler is an award-winningschool superintendent from New
York, an engaging speaker,leader and change agent.
(00:26):
We cover a wide range of topics, including his idea that
content is dead, and he talksabout what that means in more
detail.
I hope you enjoyed thisconversation as much as I did.
Welcome, dr Nagler.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show and having this
conversation today.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
It's a pleasure to be here.
I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I thought we could start with your origin story so
folks get a chance to get toknow who you are as a person,
where you come from and whatyour journey's been like.
That leads you to the presentmoment.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Well, I go way back.
I'm one of seven kids born andraised in Brooklyn, new York.
I'm a product of the New YorkCity public school system, state
College, and I started myteaching career in Brooklyn as
well.
And along the way I got marriedand my wife convinced me that I
should get a doctorate.
And as soon as I got thedoctorate she convinced me I
(01:29):
really should expand my horizons.
So I made a lateral move fromthe city to Mineola in 1999.
And I've been here ever since.
I climbed the ladder fromassistant principal to high
school principal, deputy sup,and I just started my 17th year
(01:49):
as superintendent here.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
And now Mineola is.
What about it?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, it's a suburb of New York City.
It's Long Island.
Two of the boroughs are on LongIsland, so it's Brooklyn,
queens and then Nassau County,and that's where Mineola is
located.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
And so you remember Brooklyn before it was a hipster
place to be.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yes, yeah, very much so yes.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, a couple of years ago, my daughter said Dad,
I'm going to go to I'm from,originally from New York, but
she's from San Diego and shesaid I'm going to go to, I'm
going to go to New York Citywith my friend.
Great, they end up in Brooklynand they were staying in an
Airbnb.
And she said have you ever beento this place?
And I was kind of rememberingwhat it was like when I was her
age, which is a long, long timeago, and it was nothing like
(02:40):
what it is today.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yes, and I grew up on the South side, so I grew up by
the Verrazano Bridge.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I lived for a long time in Park Slope, which
gentrified and is kind of Idon't think that's hip anymore.
I think Williamsburg is reallywhere the action is.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
It's been, it's a whole.
We could have a whole episodeon the New York City area and
what the changes have been likeso 20 years in one school
district.
I'm sure you get this questionall the time how does someone in
successive leadership rolesstay engaged, keep the passion,
(03:26):
keep the burnout at bay?
All of those things that we seein our line of work where the
average superintendent, forexample, is you know, the career
in one place is like an NFLlineman, like three, four years
out.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I think it's.
You know I'm very much a kidcentered person and I find great
parallels.
My two are 21 and 19.
And when they were, when theywere going through I live in a
neighboring district when theywere going through the system
and I saw all the things theydidn't have but it wasn't in my
purview to deliver those forthem.
I just turned around anddelivered it for my miniola kids
(04:10):
and it's a constant.
I embrace change.
I'm a big change person.
It doesn't scare me and try newthings.
If they're not working for kids, we're obligated to make it
work for them.
And I think a lot of timesleaders get into this mode where
(04:32):
it's not broke, don't fix it,or they're making decisions
based on the wrong reasons.
And I feel very strongly thatthis generation of kids is very
different than previous and weneed to move our methodologies
and our practices to match theirneeds.
(04:52):
And it's tricky.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I heard you in an interview when I was doing some
research where you made astatement that content is dead
and obviously there's morecontext that needs to be placed
around that.
Can you explain what you meantand mean by that and then tie
that to the comments that youjust made about this generation
being different?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah, I think it's going to be the title of my next
book Content is DeadRedesigning School in the Age of
AI.
I think Gen X is veryinteresting and alpha as well,
in that they're born into theinternet.
Information is ubiquitous.
They can learn whatever theywant to learn and we, as a
(05:39):
system, we don't understand that.
We keep forcing them to learnthings they don't want to.
We don't in some respects, wedon't respect them as learners
to be able to be passionateabout a subject and learn more
(05:59):
about it.
But I think if we were designingschool today and we asked the
question what does it mean to beeducated in 2025?
It wouldn't be your contentexpert.
You know, in 1987, when Istarted teaching, ED Hirsch came
(06:20):
out with cultural literacy.
You know it was like, all right, 5,000 things you need to know,
and that means you're educated,and obviously that's for the
internet.
So those 5,000 things, I couldpick up my phone and ask Siri
and I'd get them all at once.
So it's got to be more thanthis content acquisition.
(06:41):
It's got gotta be how, whatskills do I have that enable me
to access information,triangulate sources, understand
the problem and think of viablesolutions for it?
And those skills we don't teachyou know.
(07:02):
It amazes me sometimes howthere's this expectation that
kids know all these things thatwe never teach them, and it's
like it's not osmosis, there'sno like.
Why would you expect kids to begreat note takers if we never
taught them how to take notesand and then um or plan uh
(07:23):
appropriately, or keep acalendar or be able to all the
executive functioning that weexpect from our young adults,
that we never teach them, andthen we bemoan the fact that
they don't have these skills,and I think there's a
contradiction, I mean.
The other question is the bigquestion for me is what's the
purpose of school?
(07:43):
Is it to provide a workforce?
Is it to provide a workforce?
Is it to provide a, you know, acitizen of a democracy?
Or because, if it's a workforce, content knowledge isn't
required in the workforce.
They want skills.
They're going to teach you whatthey want you to know.
They want specific skills, Mostof them computers can't do, and
(08:06):
that's where I think the AIpiece comes in.
We're not keeping AI at bay.
Technology is gonna growexponentially.
How are we teaching humanskills that will always be at
the forefront in a tech worldand stop doing things that
(08:27):
machines do better.
Now I can go all day.
Homework is a great example.
Why are we giving homework?
Every kid goes home.
They take their homework, theythrow it in chat, GPT and they
give it back.
And then the teacher gets madthat the kid used the resource.
They call them cheaters.
I said no, I think you didn'tgive a good assignment.
If you gave a good assignment,they wouldn't be able to just
(08:49):
take it in two seconds.
But what's the purpose of theassignment?
Is really what this generationis pushing for?
Speaker 1 (09:00):
So how, as a leader who's been around a long time,
so how, as a leader who's beenaround a long time?
And obviously your teachers inyour district are not of the
same generation as the kids,right?
So they were taught differently, they grew up differently.
Even the young ones maybe theyoungest teachers, like early
20s caught some of that wave,right?
How do you lead the district?
(09:24):
I heard you refer to yourselfas the idea guy, the ideas guy,
and then you help other peopleimplement them.
Some ideas stick, some don't.
But what you just mentionedabout fundamentally questioning
the purpose of education, thepurpose of homework, I mean
those are deep tectonic shiftsin a system and the system
(09:48):
reacts, in my experience, as ifa foreign body is coming in, as
if our own bodies have a virus.
And what do we do?
We fight it off, we send allour immune system over there to
get rid of it.
How do you lead through that inyour capacity and still be
happy and still be fulfilled?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I think there's two questions there, or, if not, I'm
just going to give you twoanswers.
My favorite quote is the onlyhuman that embraces change is a
baby with a dirty diaper.
And I think that's the firstpiece is people don't like
change in the generality of howdo we understand why we're
(10:33):
reluctant to change, especiallynostalgic institutions like
schools, because the parentswant, for some bizarre reason,
they want the same experiencefor their kids as they had,
which doesn't make a lot ofsense to me, but it's a passion
thing, it's not really anintellectual thing.
(10:54):
And the second piece is youknow, I'm always a teacher and I
think a lot of my communicationwith my faculty and my
community and parents is why dowe need to do this?
You know, when you speak aboutwhat does it mean to be educated
(11:15):
?
People have a hard time withthat, with answering that,
because it used to be verysimple you knew knowledge or you
knew trivia, or you had anexpertise in a specific area.
And they get it when you say,well, if the Internet's here,
why is that still important?
(11:37):
And eventually that leads to agreat conversation about maybe
it's not what you regurgitatingfacts, maybe it's one of the
skills we need to do that.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
I'm not intimately familiar with what the New York
state accountability measuresare, but but all states have
them and they typically be inbig states like yours, like mine
.
They they don't focusparticularly well on what you
were just speaking about.
Right, I heard on a previouspodcast that you talked about in
(12:14):
your classrooms, where theteachers have the students have
a portfolio of learning and theysit with the teacher and they
actually they argue in favor ofwhat grade, what assessment they
should receive.
How does that approach and whatyou've just described jibe with
or conflict with accountabilitymeasures that, like it or not,
(12:36):
we all have to operate under aswell?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Well, I think it's simultaneous.
All of our work is standardbased.
We have New York Statestandards, we follow the
standards and we do it withbadges.
We do proficiency scales, wehave evidence binders.
But the idea behind that iskids can articulate what they're
learning and where they are inthe learning.
(13:00):
You know I'm less about a numberfor a kid and more about do you
understand what's going on?
Are you part of this process ofteaching and learning?
So we're both on the same page.
I can help you in what youdon't know and you can help me
(13:21):
guide your learning plan movingforward.
So we're rooted in that westill give exams.
We still give standard, nwa andbenchmark exams.
I think the big shift is what doyou do when you want to tackle
(13:43):
a learning problem?
What's your process in?
I want to learn something andI'm curious about something.
I'm passionate about something.
How do I enact that curiosityand plan to move forward?
I joke all the time about thethings we want to do and the
(14:05):
things we have to do, and thoseshouldn't be mutually exclusive.
But in our world, for somereason, we want to do and the
things we have to do, and thoseshouldn't be mutually exclusive,
but in our world.
For some reason we tend to sayit's got to be one or the other,
and you know, part of my job isfinding a landing spot for both
.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
And I think I'm toying with this new concept of
you know, parallel systems ofchange.
If you picture a timeline ofcurrent reality and this utopia
you want to go to, you can'tjump to utopia because most
people aren't going to followyou.
You have to find the landingspot on that continuum that is
(14:45):
incremental toward the bigchange and then it forms these
parallel lines and in betweenthose lines is this safe zone
that you get to work and exploreand tinker a sandbox if you
will, to move the change forward.
And if it's meaningful and it'smeaningful to kids and it's
(15:08):
meaningful to teachers thechange is going to happen.
It's when it's not meaningfulthat it dies on the vine and
then we should just let it go.
And I don't think there's aconcept with startups called MVP
minimal viable product calledMVP Minimal Viable Product and
(15:30):
an MVP is like the new back inthe day when they put out the
new OS on your phone and it wasall this buggy.
It was very buggy and I neverdownloaded it right away, but
they did it on purpose, becausethey wanted instantaneous
feedback on the biggest issuesso they could fix it in the
order in which the need met theconsumer.
We don't do that in education.
(15:52):
We don't go out in research anddevelopment or an NDP or try
something simultaneously, getfeedback and kind of build it as
we're doing it, and I thinkthat's a much better way to
initiate change, because you getmore buy-in or not.
(16:14):
You just let it go.
If it's not going to work, youdrop it.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Why do you think that is?
Why do you think there's such adisconnect between, let's say,
a private enterprise and thepublic sector, especially in
education?
Is it the nostalgia thing?
Is it that the drop to releasebeta tests of things would
almost imply that we think itmight not be guaranteed to be
successful and we don't want touse public resources in that?
(16:39):
Like what?
Do you think that is?
Because I'm part of that?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
I think it goes back to the lens.
It goes back to well, what arewe trying to accomplish If we're
trying to shove kids, shoveinformation in kids' heads and
having regurgitate it?
there's not a lot of ways, youknow, not a lot of
experimentation you need to dowith that.
If the, if the concept is morewe want to teach them you know,
(17:06):
many different skills, that theycan access information and
solve problems, well, thatbecomes wide open and more
inviting to see a change in theprocess.
A lot of times I think teachersjust need permission.
You know they need you to sayit's okay, if you try this and
(17:27):
it fails, I'm not evaluating youon it, you're not.
You know, go with it.
And that esprit de corps isvery hard in a in a in a school
building culture.
It's not, it's not reallyembraced.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
So you've, as we mentioned before, you've been in
your current district for twodecades.
As we mentioned before, you'vebeen in your current district
for two decades and from myexperience you know your comment
, your quote about the babiesand the diaper being the only
ones embracing change.
My additional I totally agreewith that.
(18:03):
My additional piece to thatwould be as we get older, where
it's almost like the baby's themost open to change and maybe
toddlers are fairly open andthen, but as we go through life,
we become less and less, so weget up to where the age we are
right and and so we don't likeit at all.
But are you seeing anything inyour district where, because
(18:23):
you've been there so long, thatstudents who've gone through
your schools and I know this isa big assumption but are staying
and then maybe put their kidsin the schools, are perhaps more
open to the innovative approachthat you take?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
You know, I certainly think my staying power here has
led to a lot more flexibilitywith my crazy ideas.
So you know, the community isalmost like oh, here he goes
again.
You know we're launching a newinitiative at the high school
I'm really excited about we'recalling.
It's called BYOG build your owngrade and that's been like two
(19:02):
years in the making.
So I think the, the longevityof the, the leader, definitely
helps.
But you know, my wife said tome the other day when are you
going to retire?
I said I'm still having fun andif you're not making me retire,
then I'm just going to keepworking because I have a lot of
(19:22):
work I want to do.
I'm excited about this notionthat we can redesign school to
make it more in line with thegeneration of kids in front of
us.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
What are the downsides or the challenges of
being in one role for so long,if there are any?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
I think there's a comfort zone the devil you know.
For a lot of people I bringstability.
I'm very black and white,there's no wishy-washy about me,
so you can pretty much predicthow I'm going to react to a
question you ask or a statementyou make, and I wouldn't
ordinarily say the longevity.
Also, you know you tend to beset in your ways and you don't
(20:04):
have a lot of new ideas.
But we really have a team here.
I've turnover in my teambecause they all get promoted,
so all my admin team move on topromotions.
A principal just left me for anassistant soup spot and it
allows us to keep the trainmoving and keep a new set of
(20:27):
ideas and fresh ideas constantlycoming in.
I think that's one of thethings we do pretty well here.
Next, man up is a commonexpression around here.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
And I'd imagine that your collaboration with the
board is also really criticaland probably you've seen
turnover.
I mean, maybe you've beenfortunate enough to have a lot
of board stability.
Sometimes that happens, but youmight also, you know, life
happens and people come and goTalk to us about how that part
of I always call it the care andfeeding of boards right Is a
(21:03):
part of a superintendent's rolethat the public doesn't
necessarily see that often.
Yeah, we learned that in thesame place't necessarily see
that often.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Yeah, so we we learned that in the same place
somewhere, because I use thatsame expression all the time.
My board is very stable.
We've had the same board forfive years now and prior to that
we had one new person come on.
I think there's a there's acomfort and a familiarity with
(21:29):
each other that really helps indiscussing problems and leading
into the future.
I don't need to convince myboard that what we're doing is
the right thing.
I basically explain it and Isay what do you think?
And there's a buy-in at theirlevel.
(21:50):
That's mandatory.
It has to happen so we can havesuccess.
We're just doing the draft ofthe board goals and the way we
envision it is.
You know, every year's goal isthat incremental portions of the
bigger picture, that utopiawe're trying to get to.
So and they understand that.
(22:11):
So if we think about like anumbrella for six, 10 years out,
they know that we're going tohave pieces, we're going to
start something, we're going tocontinue working on something,
we may initiate a new thing, andthose pieces all fit into a
puzzle.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
How did you you know, speaking of boards and
community, the trust of acommunity how did you navigate
through COVID right which wassomething that none of us had on
our strategic plans andhopefully, God willing, never
happens again, but thepossibility of a pandemic is
always out there there how didyou lead your, your community,
(22:52):
your district, through that andeven those culture wars that
that flared up to some degree inall of our workplaces?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
well, we um, we're very fortunate we we were one to
one long before covet, so wehad digital assets.
We, we were tech savvy.
I was down for one day becauseI needed I didn't want to use
Zoom, so I needed to get the.
We used WebEx.
I needed to get that up andrunning and we were back online
(23:25):
on the Tuesday and I think thecredibility that we received we
were up faster than any of myneighbors All the things I was
I'll put my air quotes all thethings I was selling about
technology were clearly evidentin our ability to just flick a
(23:47):
switch and be prepared and thatgave us a lot of credibility in
in the community to be able todo that.
The.
When we came back in person, wewere able to work it out where
every school except my highschool came back fully.
I didn't have the space at thehigh school, so we had to do a
(24:09):
split day.
That wasn't great.
We had to do a split day.
That wasn't great and I gotsome angst over that.
But pre-K to seven, no problem,and we kept plugging away.
We had a lot of communicationhow are we doing?
What can we do better?
What don't you like?
And by and large.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
It went really well and by and large it went really
well.
I want to circle back to whatyou mentioned about the role of
you know.
You made a comment that youcould basically ask Siri to
summarize Edie Hirsch's book andyou'd have all the answers
right there on your phone.
What are you doing in yourdistrict about the cell phones
(24:51):
in classrooms, cell phones oncampus?
That's obviously become anational debate.
California, you know, ourgovernor jumped out on it a year
ago, and so now we've gotmandated cell phone policies
that we have to enact by a yearfrom now.
But districts are alreadyputting theirs in place.
Some are, I think, in myopinion, my editorializing
(25:14):
pretty weak and unenforceable.
Others are more thoughtful.
Where did you come down on thatand what does that look like in
your district?
Speaker 2 (25:20):
So our governor didn't give us a generous
timeline.
She decided we're going to havea ban bell to bell ban starting
September.
So kids can't use it duringfree periods, they can't use
during lunch.
Um, I am wholly opposed to thatuh edict, partly because I
(25:44):
think it's reactionary to abigger problem and and we're
supposed to be teaching, notbeing restrictive I think we
need to teach kids informationtechnology, we need to teach
them about social media,particularly echo chambers and
algorithms designed to feed youand regurgitate information.
(26:06):
And in the absence of thatteaching, what good is pulling
the phone of that?
teaching what good is pullingthe phone and, I think,
administratively, my high school.
That's all they're going to bedoing pulling phones from kids
and it's kind of silly, I mean Ialso.
We have elected school boards.
(26:28):
These are elected officialsthat are supposed to be local
control, that do what's best fortheir local community, and now
they're coming over the top ofthat to mandate something that's
probably not going to work.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
That's so interesting that you say that.
Something popped up in my feedabout all these videos of
students hacking the wander bagsI think that's what they call
it right the restrictive bagsfor our listeners.
The restrictive bags thatsupposedly you put your phone in
and then there's a code and youcan't open it until you walk
off the campus.
Forget about the fact that allkids need to do is bring one
(27:07):
burner phone to school and haveanother one or whatever, which
again favors kids of means.
But anyway, the number ofvideos of kids finding ways to
hack those bags was unbelievableand I go wow that.
Look at all that creativeenergy gone into that.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yep, but it's a very practical example of there's a
problem that they wanted tosolve, and guess what?
They solved it and they sharedit with everybody.
So if and the adults aren'tgoing to catch up as quickly, so
when something goes viral, theadults aren't making it viral,
it's the kids making it viral.
(27:46):
So we just happen to be at thetail end of of that video stream
.
They saw it five days ago,right, right.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
What do you want your legacy to be?
I know you're going to workstill a long time.
I'm not corroborating yourwife's question about what do
you want your legacy to be in,let's say, 20 years from now, in
terms of where your district is?
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, I want Mineola's legacy not necessarily
my legacy At this point in thegame I think we're intertwined.
I want Mineola's legacy to beyou know, push the boundaries
and working hard to do what'sright for kids and engaging them
(28:34):
and have a love for learning.
It drives me nuts that kids,when you ask them what their
favorite subject is, they can'tgive you one, or they say well,
what do you love to learn about?
They struggle answering thatquestion.
But that's what school issupposed to be.
We're supposed to be instillingthis love to learn and helping
(28:57):
you in that process.
And when we miss that mark, Ithink it hurts everybody.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
I know you mentioned that at heart you're a teacher
and you're at heart you'restudent centered and those are
great motivators.
They cut through a lot of theclutter that happens when we
hear criticism and we get tiredand we get stressed.
But what gets you up every daycoming back and loving your job?
I mean, this is a job that hasan extremely high burnout rate.
Someone should do a study ofhow many times superintendents
(29:33):
go on to their state pensionplans and run different
scenarios right Like in the lastfive years of their careers.
That would be an interestingstudy.
What makes you just so full oflife and with just real vision
into the future?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, look, I want to change the world.
That's part of my personality.
But I think you see the work, Isee the enthusiasm of my people
.
This BYOG project is eithergoing to make or break me.
If you hear, I retired.
It was a complete failure, butthe esprit de corps around the
(30:13):
implementation of this has beenso infectious with my teachers,
with my admin, with my principal, that I'm excited about it.
I'm excited about to see kidsuse it and get feedback and see
what's happening with it.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
What advice would you give your former self just
starting out in an educationalleadership role?
So you're probably an assistantprincipal or a coordinator.
What advice as a veteransuperintendent with all these
accolades and awards andrecognition and trust of your
board and community, what advicedo you give that young guy?
Speaker 2 (30:53):
What advice do you give that young guy?
Seek first to understand, thenbe understood.
I think we don't listen enough,especially as leaders.
We get a little younger, we'rea little impatient, we're a
little more egotistical and wewant to do before we listen.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Sage advice, right, the energy of youth?
I always.
It's probably not a goodanalogy, but in meetings we talk
about the young rattlesnake.
If you have a choice betweenbeing bitten by an adult
rattlesnake or a youngrattlesnake, always take the
adult, because half the timeit's never going to strike and
(31:34):
if it does, it only uses alittle bit of venom.
The baby rattlesnakes are theone that they're on there, they
know what the solution is andthey pump all the poison in.
You know it's kind of asinister analogy, but that's
what popped into my head whenyou said that.
You know what I'm with you onthat it that it's true so I'm
gonna ask you a a final question, but before that I wanted to
(31:58):
see if there's anything that wehave not touched on, that that
you thought the world shouldknow.
The world here I say verygenerously, listeners should
know.
The very small portion of theworld listening should know
about your work but, moreimportantly, your district,
which in this conversationyou've always put first.
So I appreciate that, thecommunity you come from, your
(32:20):
vision.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
I would want people to know we share everything.
So all of our badge books areonline.
All of our integratedcurriculum is online.
You can follow MineolaGrowthcom.
It's all of our SEL work andgrowth mindset work.
Youtube channel is MineolaCreative Content.
It's there.
(32:45):
We enjoy making the videos,enjoy sharing.
This isn't a profession that wecan be insular in.
There's too many challenges,whether it's public, private
sector.
I share with everybody.
If you're helping kids, I wantto help you and I think that we
(33:08):
need a little more of that.
A little less competition and alittle more cooperation goes a
long way.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
That rings so true, and especially when we look at
the amount of public sectorinterest that there is in
education to make money off ofthis endeavor and that endeavor
it seems like every conference Igo to, half of the booths are
AI-based learning tools that youcan just plug it in and it's
(33:35):
going to do everything for you.
And then the other half areother curricular innovations in
quotes that pay for, but you payfor them, and if you don't pay,
you don't get access, and sothe fact that you're an open
book is really, really specialand refreshing.
My last question is if you havethe opportunity to design a
billboard on the side of thefreeway I think you guys call
(33:59):
them throughways or I can'tremember my old days of New York
so the main road there outsidewhen you drive to work every day
and you drive home, what doesyour billboard say about your
beliefs, about district, aboutyour work, like, choose any of
those, what's the first thingthat pops into into your mind?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
oh, that's a tough one, it's so, uh.
So my, my head is right now.
I would say we need to trustkids a little more.
It's a bit of a tangent, but Ithink there's a bit of a
generational bias that you know,this generation is just going
to become the generation beforeand I don't think that's going
(34:40):
to happen and that worked foryears and years and years.
You know, father knows best andit helped kids.
I don't know that the adultsknow best now, that the adults
know best now, and and it's alittle scary to me because it's
like we need this generation tobe, um, be themselves and be
(35:00):
productive citizens, and I thinksome of it is about trust them
a little more in in living intheir world.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
They know best very long billboard, but it's oh, I
mean trust kids more is isperfect, right I I?
I was having a conversation theother day about the chronic
absenteeism challenge that that,uh, I know has been a national
challenge.
Certain states are more acutethan others, and part of my gut
feeling and it's hard tosubstantiate with research is
(35:29):
that kids are sending us amessage.
They're sending us a messageLike what's rewarding gets done
and what's rewarded gets done.
And if things aren't seen asbeing wholly relevant the days
when you and I were kids whereif you were caught out during
the day walking, if the truancyofficer didn't stop you, the
neighbor's mom would go hey, son, aren't you supposed to be in
(35:53):
school?
That's long gone.
And so if kids don't findmeaning, they're kind of voting
with their feet half the time.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yeah, I agree 100%, and I think that's our job as
leaders is to make it meaningfulwhen they get here.
And you got to listen to themIn order to do that.
You have to listen to them, andyou got to listen to them.
In order to do that, you haveto listen to them.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Well, trust kids more .
That's a fantastic place towrap our conversation.
We will link your Web site, theYouTube channel and the show
notes.
Dr Nagler, it's really been apleasure.
Again, congratulations on youraward as superintendent of the
year in the state of New York.
Thank you.
Eight, 800 and something, 80districts or something that's.
(36:42):
It's quite an honor and andthey chose very well with the
award recipient.
So thank you for your time.
It's been refreshing speakingwith someone from the East coast
and yeah, I greatly appreciateit.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
I love the conversation, so thank you for
having me.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
All the best in your new school year.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Thank, you have a great one you too.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Bye-bye, thanks for joining us on the Hangout
Podcast.
You can send us an email atpodcastinfo at protonme.
Many thanks to my daughter,maya, for editing this episode.
I'd also like to underline thatthis podcast is entirely
separate from my day job and, assuch, all opinions expressed
(37:17):
herein are mine and mine alone.
Thanks for coming on in andhanging out.
Welcome to the Hangout Podcast.
I'm your host, david Shoretta.
Come on in and hang out.
In this episode, I wasprivileged to sit down with Dr
Mike Nagler.
Dr Nagler is an award-winningschool superintendent from New
York, an engaging speaker,leader and change agent.
(00:26):
We cover a wide range of topics, including his idea that
content is dead, and he talksabout what that means in more
detail.
I hope you enjoyed thisconversation as much as I did.
Welcome, dr Nagler.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show and having this
conversation today.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
It's a pleasure to be here.
I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I thought we could start with your origin story so
folks get a chance to get toknow who you are as a person,
where you come from and whatyour journey's been like.
That leads you to the presentmoment.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Well, I go way back.
I'm one of seven kids born andraised in Brooklyn, new York.
I'm a product of the New YorkCity public school system, state
College, and I started myteaching career in Brooklyn as
well.
And along the way I got marriedand my wife convinced me that I
should get a doctorate.
And as soon as I got thedoctorate she convinced me I
(01:29):
really should expand my horizons.
So I made a lateral move fromthe city to Mineola in 1999.
And I've been here ever since.
I climbed the ladder fromassistant principal to high
school principal, deputy sup,and I just started my 17th year
(01:49):
as superintendent here.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
And now Mineola is.
What about it?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, it's a suburb of New York City.
It's Long Island.
Two of the boroughs are on LongIsland, so it's Brooklyn,
queens and then Nassau County,and that's where Mineola is
located.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
And so you remember Brooklyn before it was a hipster
place to be.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yes, yeah, very much so yes.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, a couple of years ago, my daughter said Dad,
I'm going to go to I'm from,originally from New York, but
she's from San Diego and shesaid I'm going to go to, I'm
going to go to New York Citywith my friend.
Great, they end up in Brooklynand they were staying in an
Airbnb.
And she said have you ever beento this place?
And I was kind of rememberingwhat it was like when I was her
age, which is a long, long timeago, and it was nothing like
(02:40):
what it is today.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yes, and I grew up on the South side, so I grew up by
the Verrazano Bridge.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I lived for a long time in Park Slope, which
gentrified and is kind of Idon't think that's hip anymore.
I think Williamsburg is reallywhere the action is.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
It's been, it's a whole.
We could have a whole episodeon the New York City area and
what the changes have been likeso 20 years in one school
district.
I'm sure you get this questionall the time how does someone in
successive leadership rolesstay engaged, keep the passion,
(03:26):
keep the burnout at bay?
All of those things that we seein our line of work where the
average superintendent, forexample, is you know, the career
in one place is like an NFLlineman, like three, four years
out.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I think it's.
You know I'm very much a kidcentered person and I find great
parallels.
My two are 21 and 19.
And when they were, when theywere going through I live in a
neighboring district when theywere going through the system
and I saw all the things theydidn't have but it wasn't in my
purview to deliver those forthem.
I just turned around anddelivered it for my miniola kids
(04:10):
and it's a constant.
I embrace change.
I'm a big change person.
It doesn't scare me and try newthings.
If they're not working for kids, we're obligated to make it
work for them.
And I think a lot of timesleaders get into this mode where
(04:32):
it's not broke, don't fix it,or they're making decisions
based on the wrong reasons.
And I feel very strongly thatthis generation of kids is very
different than previous and weneed to move our methodologies
and our practices to match theirneeds.
(04:52):
And it's tricky.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I heard you in an interview when I was doing some
research where you made astatement that content is dead
and obviously there's morecontext that needs to be placed
around that.
Can you explain what you meantand mean by that and then tie
that to the comments that youjust made about this generation
being different?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah, I think it's going to be the title of my next
book Content is DeadRedesigning School in the Age of
AI.
I think Gen X is veryinteresting and alpha as well,
in that they're born into theinternet.
Information is ubiquitous.
They can learn whatever theywant to learn and we, as a
(05:39):
system, we don't understand that.
We keep forcing them to learnthings they don't want to.
We don't in some respects, wedon't respect them as learners
to be able to be passionateabout a subject and learn more
(05:59):
about it.
But I think if we were designingschool today and we asked the
question what does it mean to beeducated in 2025?
It wouldn't be your contentexpert.
You know, in 1987, when Istarted teaching, ED Hirsch came
(06:20):
out with cultural literacy.
You know it was like, all right, 5,000 things you need to know,
and that means you're educated,and obviously that's for the
internet.
So those 5,000 things, I couldpick up my phone and ask Siri
and I'd get them all at once.
So it's got to be more thanthis content acquisition.
(06:41):
It's got gotta be how, whatskills do I have that enable me
to access information,triangulate sources, understand
the problem and think of viablesolutions for it?
And those skills we don't teachyou know.
(07:02):
It amazes me sometimes howthere's this expectation that
kids know all these things thatwe never teach them, and it's
like it's not osmosis, there'sno like.
Why would you expect kids to begreat note takers if we never
taught them how to take notesand and then um or plan uh
(07:23):
appropriately, or keep acalendar or be able to all the
executive functioning that weexpect from our young adults,
that we never teach them, andthen we bemoan the fact that
they don't have these skills,and I think there's a
contradiction, I mean.
The other question is the bigquestion for me is what's the
purpose of school?
(07:43):
Is it to provide a workforce?
Is it to provide a workforce?
Is it to provide a, you know, acitizen of a democracy?
Or because, if it's a workforce, content knowledge isn't
required in the workforce.
They want skills.
They're going to teach you whatthey want you to know.
They want specific skills, Mostof them computers can't do, and
(08:06):
that's where I think the AIpiece comes in.
We're not keeping AI at bay.
Technology is gonna growexponentially.
How are we teaching humanskills that will always be at
the forefront in a tech worldand stop doing things that
(08:27):
machines do better.
Now I can go all day.
Homework is a great example.
Why are we giving homework?
Every kid goes home.
They take their homework, theythrow it in chat, GPT and they
give it back.
And then the teacher gets madthat the kid used the resource.
They call them cheaters.
I said no, I think you didn'tgive a good assignment.
If you gave a good assignment,they wouldn't be able to just
(08:49):
take it in two seconds.
But what's the purpose of theassignment?
Is really what this generationis pushing for?
Speaker 1 (09:00):
So how, as a leader who's been around a long time,
so how, as a leader who's beenaround a long time?
And obviously your teachers inyour district are not of the
same generation as the kids,right?
So they were taught differently, they grew up differently.
Even the young ones maybe theyoungest teachers, like early
20s caught some of that wave,right?
How do you lead the district?
(09:24):
I heard you refer to yourselfas the idea guy, the ideas guy,
and then you help other peopleimplement them.
Some ideas stick, some don't.
But what you just mentionedabout fundamentally questioning
the purpose of education, thepurpose of homework, I mean
those are deep tectonic shiftsin a system and the system
(09:48):
reacts, in my experience, as ifa foreign body is coming in, as
if our own bodies have a virus.
And what do we do?
We fight it off, we send allour immune system over there to
get rid of it.
How do you lead through that inyour capacity and still be
happy and still be fulfilled?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I think there's two questions there, or, if not, I'm
just going to give you twoanswers.
My favorite quote is the onlyhuman that embraces change is a
baby with a dirty diaper.
And I think that's the firstpiece is people don't like
change in the generality of howdo we understand why we're
(10:33):
reluctant to change, especiallynostalgic institutions like
schools, because the parentswant, for some bizarre reason,
they want the same experiencefor their kids as they had,
which doesn't make a lot ofsense to me, but it's a passion
thing, it's not really anintellectual thing.
(10:54):
And the second piece is youknow, I'm always a teacher and I
think a lot of my communicationwith my faculty and my
community and parents is why dowe need to do this?
You know, when you speak aboutwhat does it mean to be educated
(11:15):
?
People have a hard time withthat, with answering that,
because it used to be verysimple you knew knowledge or you
knew trivia, or you had anexpertise in a specific area.
And they get it when you say,well, if the Internet's here,
why is that still important?
(11:37):
And eventually that leads to agreat conversation about maybe
it's not what you regurgitatingfacts, maybe it's one of the
skills we need to do that.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
I'm not intimately familiar with what the New York
state accountability measuresare, but but all states have
them and they typically be inbig states like yours, like mine
.
They they don't focusparticularly well on what you
were just speaking about.
Right, I heard on a previouspodcast that you talked about in
(12:14):
your classrooms, where theteachers have the students have
a portfolio of learning and theysit with the teacher and they
actually they argue in favor ofwhat grade, what assessment they
should receive.
How does that approach and whatyou've just described jibe with
or conflict with accountabilitymeasures that, like it or not,
(12:36):
we all have to operate under aswell?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Well, I think it's simultaneous.
All of our work is standardbased.
We have New York Statestandards, we follow the
standards and we do it withbadges.
We do proficiency scales, wehave evidence binders.
But the idea behind that iskids can articulate what they're
learning and where they are inthe learning.
(13:00):
You know I'm less about a numberfor a kid and more about do you
understand what's going on?
Are you part of this process ofteaching and learning?
So we're both on the same page.
I can help you in what youdon't know and you can help me
(13:21):
guide your learning plan movingforward.
So we're rooted in that westill give exams.
We still give standard, nwa andbenchmark exams.
I think the big shift is what doyou do when you want to tackle
(13:43):
a learning problem?
What's your process in?
I want to learn something andI'm curious about something.
I'm passionate about something.
How do I enact that curiosityand plan to move forward?
I joke all the time about thethings we want to do and the
(14:05):
things we have to do, and thoseshouldn't be mutually exclusive.
But in our world, for somereason, we want to do and the
things we have to do, and thoseshouldn't be mutually exclusive,
but in our world.
For some reason we tend to sayit's got to be one or the other,
and you know, part of my job isfinding a landing spot for both
.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
And I think I'm toying with this new concept of
you know, parallel systems ofchange.
If you picture a timeline ofcurrent reality and this utopia
you want to go to, you can'tjump to utopia because most
people aren't going to followyou.
You have to find the landingspot on that continuum that is
(14:45):
incremental toward the bigchange and then it forms these
parallel lines and in betweenthose lines is this safe zone
that you get to work and exploreand tinker a sandbox if you
will, to move the change forward.
And if it's meaningful and it'smeaningful to kids and it's
(15:08):
meaningful to teachers thechange is going to happen.
It's when it's not meaningfulthat it dies on the vine and
then we should just let it go.
And I don't think there's aconcept with startups called MVP
minimal viable product calledMVP Minimal Viable Product and
(15:30):
an MVP is like the new back inthe day when they put out the
new OS on your phone and it wasall this buggy.
It was very buggy and I neverdownloaded it right away, but
they did it on purpose, becausethey wanted instantaneous
feedback on the biggest issuesso they could fix it in the
order in which the need met theconsumer.
We don't do that in education.
(15:52):
We don't go out in research anddevelopment or an NDP or try
something simultaneously, getfeedback and kind of build it as
we're doing it, and I thinkthat's a much better way to
initiate change, because you getmore buy-in or not.
(16:14):
You just let it go.
If it's not going to work, youdrop it.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Why do you think that is?
Why do you think there's such adisconnect between, let's say,
a private enterprise and thepublic sector, especially in
education?
Is it the nostalgia thing?
Is it that the drop to releasebeta tests of things would
almost imply that we think itmight not be guaranteed to be
successful and we don't want touse public resources in that?
(16:39):
Like what?
Do you think that is?
Because I'm part of that?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
I think it goes back to the lens.
It goes back to well, what arewe trying to accomplish If we're
trying to shove kids, shoveinformation in kids' heads and
having regurgitate it?
there's not a lot of ways, youknow, not a lot of
experimentation you need to dowith that.
If the, if the concept is morewe want to teach them you know,
(17:06):
many different skills, that theycan access information and
solve problems, well, thatbecomes wide open and more
inviting to see a change in theprocess.
A lot of times I think teachersjust need permission.
You know they need you to sayit's okay, if you try this and
(17:27):
it fails, I'm not evaluating youon it, you're not.
You know, go with it.
And that esprit de corps isvery hard in a in a in a school
building culture.
It's not, it's not reallyembraced.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
So you've, as we mentioned before, you've been in
your current district for twodecades.
As we mentioned before, you'vebeen in your current district
for two decades and from myexperience you know your comment
, your quote about the babiesand the diaper being the only
ones embracing change.
My additional I totally agreewith that.
(18:03):
My additional piece to thatwould be as we get older, where
it's almost like the baby's themost open to change and maybe
toddlers are fairly open andthen, but as we go through life,
we become less and less, so weget up to where the age we are
right and and so we don't likeit at all.
But are you seeing anything inyour district where, because
(18:23):
you've been there so long, thatstudents who've gone through
your schools and I know this isa big assumption but are staying
and then maybe put their kidsin the schools, are perhaps more
open to the innovative approachthat you take?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
You know, I certainly think my staying power here has
led to a lot more flexibilitywith my crazy ideas.
So you know, the community isalmost like oh, here he goes
again.
You know we're launching a newinitiative at the high school
I'm really excited about we'recalling.
It's called BYOG build your owngrade and that's been like two
(19:02):
years in the making.
So I think the, the longevityof the, the leader, definitely
helps.
But you know, my wife said tome the other day when are you
going to retire?
I said I'm still having fun andif you're not making me retire,
then I'm just going to keepworking because I have a lot of
(19:22):
work I want to do.
I'm excited about this notionthat we can redesign school to
make it more in line with thegeneration of kids in front of
us.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
What are the downsides or the challenges of
being in one role for so long,if there are any?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
I think there's a comfort zone the devil you know.
For a lot of people I bringstability.
I'm very black and white,there's no wishy-washy about me,
so you can pretty much predicthow I'm going to react to a
question you ask or a statementyou make, and I wouldn't
ordinarily say the longevity.
Also, you know you tend to beset in your ways and you don't
(20:04):
have a lot of new ideas.
But we really have a team here.
I've turnover in my teambecause they all get promoted,
so all my admin team move on topromotions.
A principal just left me for anassistant soup spot and it
allows us to keep the trainmoving and keep a new set of
(20:27):
ideas and fresh ideas constantlycoming in.
I think that's one of thethings we do pretty well here.
Next, man up is a commonexpression around here.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
And I'd imagine that your collaboration with the
board is also really criticaland probably you've seen
turnover.
I mean, maybe you've beenfortunate enough to have a lot
of board stability.
Sometimes that happens, but youmight also, you know, life
happens and people come and goTalk to us about how that part
of I always call it the care andfeeding of boards right Is a
(21:03):
part of a superintendent's rolethat the public doesn't
necessarily see that often.
Yeah, we learned that in thesame place't necessarily see
that often.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Yeah, so we we learned that in the same place
somewhere, because I use thatsame expression all the time.
My board is very stable.
We've had the same board forfive years now and prior to that
we had one new person come on.
I think there's a there's acomfort and a familiarity with
(21:29):
each other that really helps indiscussing problems and leading
into the future.
I don't need to convince myboard that what we're doing is
the right thing.
I basically explain it and Isay what do you think?
And there's a buy-in at theirlevel.
(21:50):
That's mandatory.
It has to happen so we can havesuccess.
We're just doing the draft ofthe board goals and the way we
envision it is.
You know, every year's goal isthat incremental portions of the
bigger picture, that utopiawe're trying to get to.
So and they understand that.
(22:11):
So if we think about like anumbrella for six, 10 years out,
they know that we're going tohave pieces, we're going to
start something, we're going tocontinue working on something,
we may initiate a new thing, andthose pieces all fit into a
puzzle.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
How did you you know, speaking of boards and
community, the trust of acommunity how did you navigate
through COVID right which wassomething that none of us had on
our strategic plans andhopefully, God willing, never
happens again, but thepossibility of a pandemic is
always out there there how didyou lead your, your community,
(22:52):
your district, through that andeven those culture wars that
that flared up to some degree inall of our workplaces?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
well, we um, we're very fortunate we we were one to
one long before covet, so wehad digital assets.
We, we were tech savvy.
I was down for one day becauseI needed I didn't want to use
Zoom, so I needed to get the.
We used WebEx.
I needed to get that up andrunning and we were back online
(23:25):
on the Tuesday and I think thecredibility that we received we
were up faster than any of myneighbors All the things I was
I'll put my air quotes all thethings I was selling about
technology were clearly evidentin our ability to just flick a
(23:47):
switch and be prepared and thatgave us a lot of credibility in
in the community to be able todo that.
The.
When we came back in person, wewere able to work it out where
every school except my highschool came back fully.
I didn't have the space at thehigh school, so we had to do a
(24:09):
split day.
That wasn't great.
We had to do a split day.
That wasn't great and I gotsome angst over that.
But pre-K to seven, no problem,and we kept plugging away.
We had a lot of communicationhow are we doing?
What can we do better?
What don't you like?
And by and large.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
It went really well and by and large it went really
well.
I want to circle back to whatyou mentioned about the role of
you know.
You made a comment that youcould basically ask Siri to
summarize Edie Hirsch's book andyou'd have all the answers
right there on your phone.
What are you doing in yourdistrict about the cell phones
(24:51):
in classrooms, cell phones oncampus?
That's obviously become anational debate.
California, you know, ourgovernor jumped out on it a year
ago, and so now we've gotmandated cell phone policies
that we have to enact by a yearfrom now.
But districts are alreadyputting theirs in place.
Some are, I think, in myopinion, my editorializing
(25:14):
pretty weak and unenforceable.
Others are more thoughtful.
Where did you come down on thatand what does that look like in
your district?
Speaker 2 (25:20):
So our governor didn't give us a generous
timeline.
She decided we're going to havea ban bell to bell ban starting
September.
So kids can't use it duringfree periods, they can't use
during lunch.
Um, I am wholly opposed to thatuh edict, partly because I
(25:44):
think it's reactionary to abigger problem and and we're
supposed to be teaching, notbeing restrictive I think we
need to teach kids informationtechnology, we need to teach
them about social media,particularly echo chambers and
algorithms designed to feed youand regurgitate information.
(26:06):
And in the absence of thatteaching, what good is pulling
the phone of that?
teaching what good is pullingthe phone and, I think,
administratively, my high school.
That's all they're going to bedoing pulling phones from kids
and it's kind of silly, I mean Ialso.
We have elected school boards.
(26:28):
These are elected officialsthat are supposed to be local
control, that do what's best fortheir local community, and now
they're coming over the top ofthat to mandate something that's
probably not going to work.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
That's so interesting that you say that.
Something popped up in my feedabout all these videos of
students hacking the wander bagsI think that's what they call
it right the restrictive bagsfor our listeners.
The restrictive bags thatsupposedly you put your phone in
and then there's a code and youcan't open it until you walk
off the campus.
Forget about the fact that allkids need to do is bring one
(27:07):
burner phone to school and haveanother one or whatever, which
again favors kids of means.
But anyway, the number ofvideos of kids finding ways to
hack those bags was unbelievableand I go wow that.
Look at all that creativeenergy gone into that.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yep, but it's a very practical example of there's a
problem that they wanted tosolve, and guess what?
They solved it and they sharedit with everybody.
So if and the adults aren'tgoing to catch up as quickly, so
when something goes viral, theadults aren't making it viral,
it's the kids making it viral.
(27:46):
So we just happen to be at thetail end of of that video stream
.
They saw it five days ago,right, right.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
What do you want your legacy to be?
I know you're going to workstill a long time.
I'm not corroborating yourwife's question about what do
you want your legacy to be in,let's say, 20 years from now, in
terms of where your district is?
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, I want Mineola's legacy not necessarily
my legacy At this point in thegame I think we're intertwined.
I want Mineola's legacy to beyou know, push the boundaries
and working hard to do what'sright for kids and engaging them
(28:34):
and have a love for learning.
It drives me nuts that kids,when you ask them what their
favorite subject is, they can'tgive you one, or they say well,
what do you love to learn about?
They struggle answering thatquestion.
But that's what school issupposed to be.
We're supposed to be instillingthis love to learn and helping
(28:57):
you in that process.
And when we miss that mark, Ithink it hurts everybody.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
I know you mentioned that at heart you're a teacher
and you're at heart you'restudent centered and those are
great motivators.
They cut through a lot of theclutter that happens when we
hear criticism and we get tiredand we get stressed.
But what gets you up every daycoming back and loving your job?
I mean, this is a job that hasan extremely high burnout rate.
Someone should do a study ofhow many times superintendents
(29:33):
go on to their state pensionplans and run different
scenarios right Like in the lastfive years of their careers.
That would be an interestingstudy.
What makes you just so full oflife and with just real vision
into the future?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, look, I want to change the world.
That's part of my personality.
But I think you see the work, Isee the enthusiasm of my people
.
This BYOG project is eithergoing to make or break me.
If you hear, I retired.
It was a complete failure, butthe esprit de corps around the
(30:13):
implementation of this has beenso infectious with my teachers,
with my admin, with my principal, that I'm excited about it.
I'm excited about to see kidsuse it and get feedback and see
what's happening with it.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
What advice would you give your former self just
starting out in an educationalleadership role?
So you're probably an assistantprincipal or a coordinator.
What advice as a veteransuperintendent with all these
accolades and awards andrecognition and trust of your
board and community, what advicedo you give that young guy?
Speaker 2 (30:53):
What advice do you give that young guy?
Seek first to understand, thenbe understood.
I think we don't listen enough,especially as leaders.
We get a little younger, we'rea little impatient, we're a
little more egotistical and wewant to do before we listen.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Sage advice, right, the energy of youth?
I always.
It's probably not a goodanalogy, but in meetings we talk
about the young rattlesnake.
If you have a choice betweenbeing bitten by an adult
rattlesnake or a youngrattlesnake, always take the
adult, because half the timeit's never going to strike and
(31:34):
if it does, it only uses alittle bit of venom.
The baby rattlesnakes are theone that they're on there, they
know what the solution is andthey pump all the poison in.
You know it's kind of asinister analogy, but that's
what popped into my head whenyou said that.
You know what I'm with you onthat it that it's true so I'm
gonna ask you a a final question, but before that I wanted to
(31:58):
see if there's anything that wehave not touched on, that that
you thought the world shouldknow.
The world here I say verygenerously, listeners should
know.
The very small portion of theworld listening should know
about your work but, moreimportantly, your district,
which in this conversationyou've always put first.
So I appreciate that, thecommunity you come from, your
(32:20):
vision.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
I would want people to know we share everything.
So all of our badge books areonline.
All of our integratedcurriculum is online.
You can follow MineolaGrowthcom.
It's all of our SEL work andgrowth mindset work.
Youtube channel is MineolaCreative Content.
It's there.
(32:45):
We enjoy making the videos,enjoy sharing.
This isn't a profession that wecan be insular in.
There's too many challenges,whether it's public, private
sector.
I share with everybody.
If you're helping kids, I wantto help you and I think that we
(33:08):
need a little more of that.
A little less competition and alittle more cooperation goes a
long way.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
That rings so true, and especially when we look at
the amount of public sectorinterest that there is in
education to make money off ofthis endeavor and that endeavor
it seems like every conference Igo to, half of the booths are
AI-based learning tools that youcan just plug it in and it's
(33:35):
going to do everything for you.
And then the other half areother curricular innovations in
quotes that pay for, but you payfor them, and if you don't pay,
you don't get access, and sothe fact that you're an open
book is really, really specialand refreshing.
My last question is if you havethe opportunity to design a
billboard on the side of thefreeway I think you guys call
(33:59):
them throughways or I can'tremember my old days of New York
so the main road there outsidewhen you drive to work every day
and you drive home, what doesyour billboard say about your
beliefs, about district, aboutyour work, like, choose any of
those, what's the first thingthat pops into into your mind?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
oh, that's a tough one, it's so, uh.
So my, my head is right now.
I would say we need to trustkids a little more.
It's a bit of a tangent, but Ithink there's a bit of a
generational bias that you know,this generation is just going
to become the generation beforeand I don't think that's going
(34:40):
to happen and that worked foryears and years and years.
You know, father knows best andit helped kids.
I don't know that the adultsknow best now, that the adults
know best now, and and it's alittle scary to me because it's
like we need this generation tobe, um, be themselves and be
(35:00):
productive citizens, and I thinksome of it is about trust them
a little more in in living intheir world.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
They know best very long billboard, but it's oh, I
mean trust kids more is isperfect, right I I?
I was having a conversation theother day about the chronic
absenteeism challenge that that,uh, I know has been a national
challenge.
Certain states are more acutethan others, and part of my gut
feeling and it's hard tosubstantiate with research is
(35:29):
that kids are sending us amessage.
They're sending us a messageLike what's rewarding gets done
and what's rewarded gets done.
And if things aren't seen asbeing wholly relevant the days
when you and I were kids whereif you were caught out during
the day walking, if the truancyofficer didn't stop you, the
neighbor's mom would go hey, son, aren't you supposed to be in
(35:53):
school?
That's long gone.
And so if kids don't findmeaning, they're kind of voting
with their feet half the time.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yeah, I agree 100%, and I think that's our job as
leaders is to make it meaningfulwhen they get here.
And you got to listen to themIn order to do that.
You have to listen to them, andyou got to listen to them.
In order to do that, you haveto listen to them.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Well, trust kids more .
That's a fantastic place towrap our conversation.
We will link your Web site, theYouTube channel and the show
notes.
Dr Nagler, it's really been apleasure.
Again, congratulations on youraward as superintendent of the
year in the state of New York.
Thank you.
Eight, 800 and something, 80districts or something that's.
(36:42):
It's quite an honor and andthey chose very well with the
award recipient.
So thank you for your time.
It's been refreshing speakingwith someone from the East coast
and yeah, I greatly appreciateit.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
I love the conversation, so thank you for
having me.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
All the best in your new school year.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Thank, you have a great one you too.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Bye-bye, thanks for joining us on the Hangout
Podcast.
You can send us an email atpodcastinfo at protonme.
Many thanks to my daughter,maya, for editing this episode.
I'd also like to underline thatthis podcast is entirely
separate from my day job and, assuch, all opinions expressed
(37:17):
herein are mine and mine alone.
Thanks for coming on in andhanging out.
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