August 18, 2025 • 44 mins
Growing up in Nigeria, climate activist and global leader Jennifer Uchendu witnessed systemic inequalities that sparked her passion for advocacy. Today, she's pioneering work at the intersection of climate action and psychological wellbeing—a connection rarely discussed in mainstream environmental conversations. While Western climate narratives often center on distant polar bears or melting ice caps, Jennifer illuminates how climate anxiety manifests uniquely in African contexts, where communities simultaneously navigate economic survival, political instability, and environmental degradation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome, Jennifer.
Thank you so much for joiningus today for this conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Thank you, it's such a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
I appreciate your when I asked you prior in our
pre-chat about where you are inthe world right now.
You you know you're on the EastCoast, but you mentioned that
you sometimes can't quiteremember where you are right.
You move around so much, youtravel, you have so many
currents flowing in your life.
Why don't you start with, ifyou would, telling us about your
(00:32):
origin story, where you comefrom and what brings you to this
present moment?
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Well, I'm Igbo and that's my primary identity,
besides being a woman, and I'mfrom the tribe of the Igbos,
based off in Nigeria, andNigeria is in West Africa, so a
lot of the times I identify withthat tribe and being Black
(01:01):
African and a young person, Iwould say, who's really
passionate about theenvironmental work.
But growing up as an Igbo womanor a daughter, I think there are
threads of oppression that Ialways saw within the society I
grew up with, within my internalfamily system.
(01:24):
That I feel has shaped who I'vebecome today.
So now I show up in the worldas a climate activist and
someone who's very passionateabout the intersection of mental
health and well-being issues,even as activists and, you know,
climate leaders.
And I think that thread alwayscame from the childhood.
(01:46):
I grew up in just wanting toadvocate for people who never
felt like they had a voice orjust being angry all the time
about the things that wereunfair in the world as I saw it
as a child growing up, so that Iwould say has led me to this
point.
(02:06):
It's constantly looking tosolve problems, problems that
show up first in my own life,that I personally have to deal
with, and then saying, well, ifI find a solution to this or if
I'm part of a group trying tosolve this problem, then maybe
to make the world a better placeone way or the other.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah, when people think of climate change, at
first blush people think aboutrising sea levels.
In the media they think aboutpolar bears having an
ever-shrinking environment.
I know a lot of people who sayI want to do a cruise to Alaska
before there's nothing to seethere.
(02:46):
I haven't heard anyone beforekind of stumbling into your work
talk about mental health,anxiety and the intersection
with climate change.
So that's what really drew meto your story story.
(03:08):
Can you expand on those ideasand then talk about how it has
really been immediately presentin your life and the life of
young people around the world,but also in West Africa?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Sure, that's a great question, and some of those
examples you gave are all partof you know narratives that you
know have been, you know havebecome dominant within the
climate change.
You know stories it doesn'tinvalidate them, but they are
not like all there is to theproblem, as it were.
So my work with climate changeand mental health, I think, came
(03:40):
from my experience as a climateactivist in Nigeria.
You know organizing workingwith young people to.
You know run nature-basedprojects, community projects.
You know cleanup initiatives.
I have constantly poured myselfinto doing the work that
protects the environment, andsomewhere along the line I felt
(04:03):
extremely burnt out, overwhelmedand anxious as a result, and
anxious in the sense thatclimate change is an extremely
big problem.
It's big to tackle.
It's not just about, you know,carbon in the atmosphere, the
weather changing.
It's about systems changing.
It's about the power andinjustice and the oppression
(04:25):
that comes as a result of it,and so for me, these realities
came kind of flashing back andit just seemed like I was a drop
in the ocean.
And that's what you find with alot of young people who are
interested in, you know,supporting the movement or
making change.
You know supporting themovement or making change and
that anxiety, that fear, anger,you know, and grief that I was
(04:48):
feeling.
I later came to understand thatit's, you know, a concept
within you know, environmentalpsychology and climate and
mental health literature, as youknow eco-anxiety, climate
anxiety and the likes.
But for me it was first thatfeeling of extreme powerlessness
and overwhelm.
And it wasn't just mepersonally the young people that
(05:11):
I walked with also sensed itand, you know they just kept
thinking what it's what we'redoing, even enough, you know,
can this even make the change,especially on the backdrop of
the news that we hear everysingle day, you know, you hear
headlines like less than 10years, you know, to save the
planet, or you know there's, no,there won't be life after now.
(05:32):
So you find young people, youknow, choosing not to have
children.
You find people making a lot ofreally strong decisions and big
decisions as a result of theclimate crisis and these
realities that we're having toface.
All of those are encapsulatedwithin the climate, mental
health, conceptualization.
(05:54):
But even beyond some of thesefeelings I've spoken about,
older people are dealing withsomething called solastagia,
which has to do with the loss of, you know, identity and the
places that they've always known, you know, seeing that change
over time.
I've heard, you know, olderpeople in Nigeria talk about how
(06:15):
the Lagos and Lagos is a majorcity in Nigeria the Lagos they
lived in is no longer what we'rehaving to live in and they feel
very sorry for us, but alsothey're grieving that reality
that's changing, you know, interms of how.
You know, the ecosystem initself is changing and things
are no longer the way they usedto be.
(06:36):
Fruits no longer come, you know, in particular season and
things are just, you know,scrambled, as some of them say,
and that's something we seecoming up.
That grieving, that loss ofidentity that comes, for example
, if you have to migrate as aresult of a massive flood, you
know that destroys yourcommunity.
(06:56):
Farmers are having to grievetheir livelihood that they're
losing.
So this is beyond, you know,just talking about climate
adaptation is how deeply is, youknow, this impacting people on
a psychological level, and notjust in terms of how they cope,
but how they even envision theirplace in the world?
(07:17):
You know, can you haveconversations with these people
about being a climate activistor climate actors?
It's very difficult to imaginea better world or a climate safe
world when you're interfacedwith this reality.
So all of that reality is whatI've been exploring,
particularly building evidenceon what this looks like in
(07:39):
Africa, because oftentimes youdon't always find the evidence
and literature, because lessresearch is done on our end of
the world, and I've just beenreally motivated to create this
opportunity to learn more aboutthe problem, explore and
experiment with solutions toreally build resilience.
Because, again, when you look atthe injustice of the climate
(08:01):
crisis, look at the injustice ofthe climate crisis, africa,
despite contributing less toglobal warming, you know, gets
to be at the brunt of it and wedon't have the infrastructure to
even bounce back and to buildresilience.
So when there is a massiveclimate disaster, it hits us
really bad, you know, and it'sdifficult to kind of bounce back
(08:23):
and to move forward after that.
So a lot of my work has beenlooking at how people cope, how
people dream, how people, youknow, build resilience following
a disaster.
But even before that, even forthe young people who live, you
know, in regions in Africa thatyou know may face a climate
disaster sooner or later, whatdoes that look like for them and
(08:46):
what are their perception ofrisks, mental health issues that
could potentially come up?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
In response to what you were experiencing, what you
saw among young people, youstarted an organization.
Can you talk to us about that?
And also, it has a catchy name,so talk to us about that.
And also it has a catchy name,so talk to us about that, what
the name means, susti vibes andand everything kind of
surrounding that sure, actuallyit's a funny story because susti
(09:15):
vibes existed way before Istarted the climate and mental
health work.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
what I did was to start a project within sustie
Vibes that then focused on this,and Softie Vibes you know yes,
it's catchy, you know started alittle less than 10 years ago
and that was my entry into thiswork, as it were.
I wanted to bring young peopleto be excited, you know, and
(09:42):
relate to sustainability issuesand get them on board, and we
did that.
You know, within the firstthree years we had lots and lots
of young people acrosscommunities in Nigeria showing
up, you know, as volunteers,working on multiple
sustainability projects.
But three years in that burnoutand overwhelm started to, you
(10:03):
know, kind of engulf us and westarted something called the Eco
Anxiety Africa Project, whichis a sub project within Susti
Vibes, now being, you know, setup to be an organization of its
own.
And what we do at TIP is lots ofresearch on building the
evidence on what this reallymeans for us as Africans, on
(10:24):
building the evidence on whatthis really means for us as
Africans, and also advocacy,trying to make a case and
validate that these emotions arereal and valid and it's
something that we feel asAfricans, because there are
arguments that you know this isa white person's problem, as it
were.
And side by side, you know,running community projects.
So, whether it'sintergenerational projects with
(10:45):
our elders to build resilience,whether it's projects around,
you know, having our version ofa climate cafe, so talk therapy
and spaces where we talk aboutthe problems and what we feel we
can do within.
You know, guided climate awarekind of psychotherapy support
and really looking at ways tomove from this feeling of
(11:08):
despair and hopelessness to justcoming out of this space is
feeling a bit more confident andcourageous and hopeful and
feeling that we can continue todo the work because we need that
and we need that at a large,you know, scale.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
How do you work with young people who may very likely
be focused first and foremoston economic survival?
I know in the United States mydaughter's in her early 20s and
it's a tough time forgenerationally that age group of
(11:45):
individuals to think about whata career looks like.
Can they ever afford to buy ahome?
That's certainly considerationin California, with just
skyrocketing cost of living andyoung people coming out of
college or coming out of highschool how they're going to fit
in, and I often think that partof the challenge.
(12:07):
You know, people lament the factthat, oh, the young, at least
in the United States oh well,the young set doesn't vote.
They don't come out to vote.
Even though they're registeredand they can, they don't.
They're focused on other things.
I think that's anoversimplification, but it's
always a challenge, at least inthe United States.
Older voters tend to be theones who come out and and and
(12:28):
express their themselves at theballot box.
There's other ways to getinvolved in society, but how do
you handle that topic in anAfrican context, right when
people I'd imagine especiallyyounger people might say oh yeah
, I can sit around and talkabout this, but I have to.
Just I got to pay the rent.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I got to do that.
So how do you kind of blendthose two, recognizing the
realities that people have intheir daily lives?
But then also, this issomething that, from a talk
therapy standpoint, if you wantto use that term, it's.
It's important now, but it'salso important.
It's never going to not beimportant.
Yeah, this is for the rest oftheir lives.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I mentioned that we have ourversion of of you know, these
spaces and it's called Zen Cafeand what we've done and again,
if I can backtrack, and whatwe've done and again, if I can
(13:36):
backtrack, whenever we talkabout this climate and mental
health conversation in Africa,it's not in silos of the
existing socioeconomic issues.
I would say most of the time.
That's the big thing, that'sthe problem.
It's how does the climatecrisis as thing happening side
by side?
How does it make existingmatters worse, right, how does
it make it harder to get a job?
How does it make it harder tocope and to move out of the
(13:56):
poverty line?
So, within the spaces, withinthe projects that we run, that's
really a big thing.
That shows up.
You know, it's people'sinability to hope or see a
future.
So it's almost like with all ofthe things that we have to deal
with as young Africans, there'sthis added layer of the climate
crisis and that's what'sextremely difficult.
(14:19):
So these conversations are verymuch valid and there are a lot
of of things that we talk about.
So, within a climate cafe and Ican share some resources.
You know that speaks to how wedesign this.
You know settings.
Within those conversations, youwould find that you know people
are talking about not havingjobs.
(14:40):
Having jobs, you know, peopleare talking about how, you know,
the quality of schools they hadattended is impacting their
ability to do X, y, z in theircurrent state.
So we find that these issuesare interlinked.
And, again, the climate crisisis not just about, you know, the
environment or the weatherchanging.
(15:01):
For us in Africa, what we seeas the environment is the
platform that you're able tothrive and survive in.
And if that environment, youknow, in a sense, is being
impacted by the climate crisisbecause there's insecurity,
that's, you know, being impactedright now in Nigeria as a
result, there's, you know, foodinsecurity.
(15:22):
You know that we're having tograpple with.
And when you start to connectthe dots, you know that we're
having to grapple with and whenyou start to connect the dots,
you see that this is part of abigger problem and we have to
talk about it.
You know we have to talk aboutissues like energy transition
because right now in Lagos, amemo has just gone out to say
we're going to have power issuesfor the entire month.
(15:43):
So you know these things comeup, you know, and you know staff
are saying well, how are wegoing to get power to work from
home?
You know this is going to bevery difficult.
So it's all.
It's all part of theconversation.
You don't even put them asseparate things.
We see, you know the climatecrisis and all of the crisis, as
(16:03):
it were, as part of this bigthing that we're having to deal
with, you know, side by side,all at once, and that's the
unfortunate reality.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
And I'd also imagine that, you know, being such a
massive continent with such avariety of um, both
socio-economic, political,geographical differences, right
in realities, I'm sure africa'sgot its own massive range of
(16:36):
both sense of urgency aboutthese issues and even caring
about it all the way to, as yousay, hey, I don't know if I can
work from home because I'm notgoing to have internet, because,
like, there's going to berolling blackouts or something
in the city because the powergrid can't handle it.
Have you experienced that inyour conversations?
(16:57):
Like, I'm sure that it variesreally widely, right?
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
And something we're now tryingto do with a project called Zen
Guardians is we're now lookingto have conversations across
Africa, but kind of contextual.
So in Uganda, we're doingsomething different, working
with the young people there.
In South Africa, you know,something different is happening
(17:24):
and in Nigeria, you know it's adifferent conversation, all
within the same framework.
From my experience with SustiVibes even, you know, in Nigeria
Nigeria is a big country, youhave 240 million people.
Even within Nigeria, differenttribes, different states,
different cities, just havetheir peculiarities.
(17:45):
The climate issues aredifferent.
The framings and narratives ofhow people understand the
problem, you know, how they care, how they respond, is different
.
There is a faith dimension thatyou have to also, you know,
explore oftentimes.
So we've learned that there'sno one size fits all in the ways
that we address and talk topeople.
(18:06):
So, again, cultural sensitivitycomes to play, but we don't
come into the spaces like wehave the solution.
We're all trying to figure itout together and by the young
people I'm talking, peoplewithin the community are
volunteering their time, youknow, through a participatory
process to try and figure outwhat does resilience look like
(18:27):
for us, you know, and how can weshow up in the world feeling a
little bit, you know, morehopeful than we were the other
day.
So it's definitely difficult.
There are weeks, you know, justvery recently, part of the
middle belt in Nigeria was justattacked by headsmen and lots of
people lost their life.
(18:48):
And you know, the next day wejust, you know, couldn't imagine
doing our work because it justdidn't make sense.
And that's, you know, in thatplace because a lot of the young
people there would not welcomeany conversation because they're
extremely upset.
And you know we we realizedthat this is just the complexity
and you know the difficulty ofworking in this space, that it's
(19:11):
real life issues.
You know it's not something youcan just do on Excel and you
know, share on a screen, this isactual people.
You know people's lives andfutures being impacted on a day
to day.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
What has been the politicization of these
conversations in the Africancontext?
The conversations around evenwhether to call it global
warming or climate change in theUnited States.
That's this whole hot debate,and then within that it's split
left and right about both, whatmeasures should be taken, or
(19:47):
whether you know, should weshould, should we have the green
new deal, which was somethingthat's proposed, and then on the
left, the fairly far left, andthen the right comes back and
says, no, that'll kill industry.
We need to have, you know,bring it.
Or, in the case of a currentadministration, oh, we're going
to bring back coal and thatwhole industry fighting back and
(20:08):
forth.
I knew in preparation fortoday's conversation that when
we air this, I'm going to havepeople who are very enthusiastic
about the concept of helpingyoung people with eco-anxiety
and then people who go, ah,that's just a bunch of nonsense.
The climate in the world haschanged and will continue to
(20:29):
change and always has changed,and these are just natural
cycles and if we do too muchwe're going to curtail industry
and we're going to hurt people'sstandard of living.
So that's a really longstatement to ask you have you
seen those conflicts in theAfrican context between left and
right, and industry andactivism.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Well, that's a big question, I think, for us.
A lot of the conversationswithin, you know, climate change
has always been fossil fuelversus no fossil fuel, and we
are heavily dependent on, youknow oil in Africa and all of
that, and so the conversationagainst has always been if we do
(21:17):
not exploit and, you know,extract that oil, then how do we
develop?
You know, especially when youthink of how, you know Western
countries also developed fromthe same process and system.
So it's a very difficultconversation.
This talk about energytransition and what that looks
like Within political systems.
(21:39):
It's constantly finding a wayto do the right thing, but not
having a financial impactbecause we need the money right.
So that has always been thedifficulty how do we innovate in
ways that are, how do weinnovate in ways that do not
harm the environment at the sametime?
(21:59):
And again, within industry, sowe don't have the kind of
left-right structure, but youhave people saying, well, we
need the money, we need the oil.
You know we need to continuebusiness as usual because that's
the way, and you know theargument that we contributed
least to the problem.
So is climate change really anAfrican problem to deal with?
(22:22):
And whereas there, you knowthis other school of thought
saying, well, you can't spendmoney on a dead planet.
We are getting, you know theheat of the problem, so we need
to hold, you know the West andpeople who have more money
accountable, but also we need todo better and you know kind of
leapfrog in a way that issmarter and cleaner and so
(22:46):
pushing for more ambitious andurgent.
You know climate, energy, peoplein rural parts of Nigeria and
(23:12):
you find that they understand,you know these changes, you know
things not being the same orhow it was, but they will never
call it climate change because,yeah, they would.
You know they would, they woulddescribe it in different ways.
They would describe it indifferent ways and then kind of
(23:33):
have experimented differentapproaches to adapt and to deal
with.
You know the problem to trythis when this happens, to try
this when this happens in termsof you know whether it's the
ones who you know work withanimals or the actual crop
farmers.
So it's, it's an issue thatpeople are aware of but not
directly linked out.
They won't call it oh, this isa climate change problem or I'm
(23:55):
an activist trying to make theworld better in this way,
basically, and then obviously welook to, unfortunately, we look
to the West, we look to placeslike America for best practices
and we don't see a lot of thatin recent times and that,
unfortunately, has emboldenedpeople who think otherwise and
(24:17):
has escalated the feelings ofhopelessness, because it's
almost like if the people whohave more money, who should be
doing right, don't even believein the problem.
You know, is there really afighting chance really?
And it's what we're having tograpple with, especially, you
know, within the work that we do.
(24:38):
This comes up a lot within our,you know, zen Cafe conversations
.
You know of young people sayingyou know, what really is the
point If X, y is happening inthis part of the world, with the
people who have the resources,the people who can make a lot of
changes?
So, yeah, it's just a tough,tough reality, but it comes on
(24:59):
our end, but in different ways.
And energy transition has beenthe latest one.
You know.
Climate finance has also been abig one conversations around net
zero and what that means for usin Africa and if we have the
technology and the know-how toactually drive something like
(25:19):
that.
And moving beyond commitmentsand pledges to actually looking
at what does a net zero mean forAfricans, you know, for places
where they haven't seen power atall and they would, you know,
embrace anything at all, whetherit's clean or dirty, and they
need that power because thatwould push employment, that
would push education and all ofthat.
(25:40):
So it's definitely a difficultconversation when you think of
what energy transition or evenlarger issues like climate
adaptation look like for placeslike Africa.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
What have your conversations around nuclear
energy been?
Speaker 2 (25:57):
That's not something that comes up a lot within us,
to be honest, so it's notsomething that we have really
paid attention to.
That we have really paidattention to.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
It's such an interesting.
Well, returning to yourprevious comments around kind of
looking to the West, I know inthe United States people say,
well, if you look at right nowwho pollutes, you know who's
polluting at an inordinate rate.
You can look at China, you canlook at India, and then China,
(26:32):
and India, in particular China,with massive industrial
revolution in a very, very shortamount of time, much shorter
than the United States was, butbecause of the population, you
know, a significant impact, kindof.
The comments are well, yeah,well, you know the U?
S, you guys had yourmodernization, you had your
(26:53):
massive standard of living.
Uh, increases in in.
Now we're doing it, and we'redoing it faster and we're doing
it more efficiently.
And we've had these, matt, thelargest migration of humans in
the history of the planet hasbeen from rural to to urban
China, right, uh, and then, ofcourse, now china's population
is slowing down and then you'regoing to have india.
(27:14):
Um, I, I just always thinkabout.
It's almost this thing whereyou go.
And, and as you mentionedafrica, what we know is that
africa has contributed little tonothing to the to the problem,
right, from an industrializationstandpoint.
Um, but you're sufferinginordinate impacts.
And then you look to us and wego, oh well, we're doing this,
(27:37):
check out china and china's like, well, you guys caused this,
yeah, hundred years, and someanwhile it's kind of I can see
where that I I'm gettinganxious just having this
conversation with you.
Yeah, it's stressful, yeah, andthe reason I bring up the
nuclear is, just as it's alwaysbeen a curiosity of mine,
because nuclear energy issomething that I've heard now in
(28:03):
recent conversations, in termsof sustainability and impact to
the environment, as long asthere's not a nuclear disaster
but because of Chernobyl andbecause of Three Mile Island in
New York that, by the way, noone died from Three Mile Island
and the Japanese power plantdisaster that was caused by a
(28:26):
tsunami that also had minimalimpact, but those are in the
press and these high profileevents that just drive massive
fear.
And so much of our dialogue, somuch of our decision-making is,
as you say, is narrative driven,and if the narrative is not
complete and the narrative isn'tcomprehensive and the narrative
(28:47):
is not thoughtful, then we'reall just making I always use
this term intellectually lazy orknee-jerk reaction decisions
and no one's asking hey, how'sthis going to play in Nigeria?
Or how is this going to playwith this particular ethnic
group that has already beenmarginalized multiple times over
(29:09):
and now, because of changes tothe environment, they're having
to migrate, and now they'remaybe even I'm sure we're seeing
loss of native languages, we'reseeing loss of native practices
, agricultural practices, rightLike these are really really
critical issues.
How is Susti Vibes sustained?
Do you get donations or talk tous about that?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Sure, so we do get donations, but oftentimes we're
applying for grants yeah, from,you know, locally, within
corporations in Nigeria or, youknow, outside the country.
So we have funders, like youknow, you know, based in America
, who are interested in youthwork, youth and climate work,
(29:55):
who are interested in climatechange and mental health work.
So it's constantly a game ofapplying, spending late nights
and just pouring a lot of ourtimes applying, applying for
grants.
We do have a small socialenterprise system where we have
a space and people can come into use the space, and so that
(30:17):
also supports with someoperational costs around the
office.
But funding is, and I think itwill always be, an issue with
climate work because there's somuch to do and very little
resources and opportunitiesavailable.
And I think it will always bean issue with climate work
because there's so much to doand very little resources and
opportunities available.
And I think with Africa, we'reconstantly in competition.
Unfortunately, everyone istrying to apply and just say the
(30:42):
right things to get the fundingin.
So it's not the easiest process, it's not the most ideal, I
would say, because it almostreinforces that kind of
capitalist struggle mentalityand you know we're constantly
having to work hard to look forfunding.
One of my colleagues and I werejust talking about how it's
(31:05):
almost like we spend more time,you know, applying for grants
than actually doing you know thework that we want to do, and
you can fall into a trap whereyou just do the work that your
donor needs and you just checkthat box rather than what you
actually want to do.
So it's very difficult and Iwould say with Susti Vibes, we
(31:26):
probably could have gone a lotfarther if we took all kinds of
funding.
You know so.
For example, we'd never setmoney from an oil and gas
company, and even though theyare the richest corporations in
Nigeria.
But that means that we have tostay true to our mission and
remain, you know, less, you knowless sustainable, I would say,
(31:48):
just as a result.
So we still have to keep someof our projects more scale until
we're able to find those, youknow, the right kind of donors
that are flexible and aremission oriented and that trust
us enough to, you know, run someof these projects large scale.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
We've spoken about a lot of the challenges, the
impacts of anxiety and fear andhopelessness and you talked
about.
There are these retreats orthese conferences that are being
set up so that climateactivists can go and rest
somewhere.
On the flip side of that,Jennifer, what gives you hope?
(32:25):
Why do you get up every day andkeep doing this work?
Speaker 2 (32:29):
That is such a great question.
I think, and I really believe,that the work that I do is
important.
It's creating that rippleeffect, right?
Someone sees our work andthey're motivated to keep
showing up.
So that alone helps me, right.
(32:50):
And I think that if we crashout and we're no longer able to
do our work, it's going toimpact a lot of things that you
know, a lot of dreams thatpeople have.
It's going to impact the waypeople imagine what climate
action looks like and for me,that helps me.
You know, just thinking that I'msupporting one person in their
(33:13):
own aspiration of you knowmaking change, like you know,
making climate action a realityin their community, doing
something.
So it's really been about that,you know, beyond serving me and
helping me stay sane, becauseequal anxiety is something that
I have grappled with.
So I am energized by showing upand doing something about you
(33:38):
know the problem, but I thinkabout it the entire value chain
of you know who gets impactedbeyond the beneficiaries who
come to our events, you know whoare supported one way or the
other is the fact that more andmore people are also thinking
solutions.
More and more people arethinking well, you know, this
(33:58):
space has helped me think ofsomething I can start.
You know you've talked aboutnuclear energy today.
You know that's something thatcould come up within.
You know our conversationswhere someone decides well, I'm
going to study this in-depthly,I'm going to do something about
it and I want to work in thisspace.
So for me, it's beyond theadaptation.
I think the work that I'm doinghas that double-pronged
(34:21):
approach where we're actuallylooking at ways to mitigate the
climate crisis.
One conversation or oneresilience, you know approach at
the time and I think that'sreally powerful.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
I'm glad you mentioned the ripple effect,
because you know mostorganizations, most nonprofits,
most businesses in the world,most businesses in the world are
small yeah, they're one or twoor five or 10 people, and
without that energy, almost thebutterfly effect, right, if the
(34:55):
butterfly doesn't flap its wings, then we'll never know if it's
going to change the air currentsaround the world somewhere,
right, and so I reallyappreciate you for that.
How have your studies connectedto the work of Susti Vibes?
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Well, that's also an interesting story.
So my bachelor's was inbiochemistry, and this was many
years ago.
I graduated in 2011, and I cameout of, you know, the bachelor's
just wanting to learn aboutsustainability, learn about the
(35:32):
work that I do, and I couldn'tget into a master's program for
eight whole years and when Ifinally got into it, that's how
I started doing a lot of thework on climate change and
mental health.
So it's been an interestingjourney for me and I'm now
completing an MPH.
I think I'm motivated to keeplearning about the ways that I
(35:56):
can do my work better, but alsoa part of it has felt like I
need to get this validation.
You know, with these degrees,that these days I've started to
question, you know, if that'sreally necessary, but it's been
an interesting experience.
I would say how you know, doingone thing leads to the other.
(36:16):
You know, with the masters,with the MPH, and you know this
journey that I found myself in.
But I'm privileged to keepdoing my work and my studies
side by side and I know thatthat is such a gift and a
privilege to be able to do bothside by side.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
I have deep respect for you and your multiple energy
efforts.
Obviously, as a parent of ayoung child, that's an
additional, that's the mostimportant area that your energy
needs to go to.
So you are balancing andmanaging.
So thank you again, you know,for taking the time today from
(36:54):
New Jersey to balance parenthoodand your ongoing work on
climate, as well as yourgraduate program.
And I know the feeling of beingkind of halfway through.
I always talk about like thecaterpillar.
Before the caterpillar turnsinto a butterfly it has to go
into the cocoon, you know, andthen in the cocoon and it's like
(37:18):
there's some point in therewhich it's probably just like
some sort of amorphous greenjuice before it comes out as a
butterfly.
And being in the middle of agraduate program kind of feels
that way.
Sometimes, right, you're like,oh, please don't ask me about my
programs going, because I'm ina program and I don't know when
I'm going to come out of theprogram.
So I'm kind of green juice,right, thank you.
(37:43):
What are you?
You I'm just.
I have two more questions foryou, sure?
What are you most proud of inyour work and that the
organization?
I know it's not about you.
So what are you most proud ofin the work of susti vibes and
overall in your climate activism.
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
I think I'm proud of the fact that we're able to
bring a lot of our ideas to life.
It's incredible, you know.
We say, oh, we're going tocreate space to talk about these
issues, a space that validatesthe emotions that young people
(38:21):
feel, and we're going to makethis a thing.
And we do it, and it's like theworld catches up with it.
You know, we're then gettingfeatures from National
Geographic, you know, and all ofthat, we think, well, we're not
going to stop here.
We're going to invite youth-ledorganizations from other parts
of the continent to join thiswalk and to build on it from
(38:44):
there.
And we go ahead and do it.
I think that ability to dreamand bring things to life is one
of our proudest, you know,accomplishments, where we're
constantly thinking how are wegoing to make this happen?
And somehow, you know, it justaligns that.
You know, we're able to pour inour time, build out the concept
(39:04):
notes, and it happens.
And you know one examplerecently is we're just currently
concluding a project wherewe're working with young girls
who live in Lagos and trying tobuild this idea of rest side by
side with feminist leadership,and when we were writing the
concept notes, it just seemed so, you know, like not something
(39:28):
anyone would want to jump onright now.
Who's talking about restingwith all of the issues going on?
But we were very fortunate to,you know, find a funder and find
the supports to drive the work.
And we've just closed outcohort one of the training, and
it's just incredible to see thatwe're able to bring these
things to life.
(39:49):
And to the previous question,Susti Vibes and I think my walk
is proof of the things thatyoung people can bet, the things
that young people can do.
We are 100% youth-led and kindof everyone that we work with is
a young person.
We're all dreaming together,we're all thinking through how
(40:09):
to, you know, make some changeand our agenda is just to make
the world a better place for,you know, ourselves and you know
, the future generation coming,and I think it's just incredible
to see some of the things thatwe've done, in spite of the odds
, in spite of not having, youknow, not having a salary that
(40:30):
you can brag to your friendsabout, you know, not having you
know things that you know like,when you think about it,
comparable, but we feel very, wefeel very fulfilled in this
purposeful work.
It's exhausting, but you know,we can be proud of some of the
things that we've done, thelives that we've changed, and
(40:50):
just seeing how people'sjourneys are shaped because they
interact with you know our workone way or the other.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
As you mentioned the National Geographic.
I want to congratulate you onbeing mentioned in there, and
that's how I learned.
That was the initial way inwhich you popped up on my radar
and then went deeper with someresearch, but that's quite an
honor, right?
There's a lot of organizationsand people and activists and
initiatives around the worldliterally millions of them.
(41:20):
So you're one in many millions,thank you.
Millions of them.
So so you're one.
You're one in in many millions.
Um, the last question is ahypothetical and I'm not even
that much of a fan of billboards, but for the thought experiment
, this is what.
This is what the question is.
You have a chance to create abillboard for the side of the,
(41:41):
of the highway, the freeway, the, depending on where you are in
the world we call them differentthings but a place that
thousands and maybe millions ofpeople pass by every day, week,
month and year.
What does your billboard say tothe world about what you
believe, about your work, aboutthe way you see the present and
(42:02):
the future?
Speaker 2 (42:03):
about the way you see the present and the future.
That's such a big question, butlately I've just been
resonating with the walks andquotes of someone I admire and
really respect.
His name is Dr Bayo Akomalafep.
He's Nigerian for shuttles, Ithink, within the US and India,
and you know he talks about.
(42:25):
He has this really interestingquote that says the times are
urgent and we need to slow down,and that has been.
You know, that has beensomething that I've been
thinking about a lot.
You know how.
You know this idea of slowingdown can even drive and help,
you know, with the eco-anxietywork that we do, but also with
(42:46):
the climate crisis.
So much of all that we do runsin such, you know, fumes and
urgency and you know we'rewalking like it's a sprint, you
know, and people are burnt outand exhausted and we're not
making as much progress.
So I want a billboard thatencapsulates some of those ideas
(43:07):
in terms of slowing down butholding space to realize that
the times are indeed urgent,right, so that's not something
to discard, but we want to slowdown, we want to come together
and we want to think ofalternative ways of being and of
doing, want to think ofalternative ways of being and of
(43:28):
doing.
That's something I definitelywant to build on.
You know, following now and alot of the work that we do
pushes that.
You know that idea of rest andslowing down, but I think
bringing it forward into theclimate conversation is
something that I want to drivemoving forward.
That's ambitious, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
That's a beautiful thing to think about, a
beautiful sentiment to thinkabout, especially in our
incredibly and increasinglyfast-paced world, yeah, where
there is no break from the newscycle, the social media cycle,
whatever cycle you want.
There is no break from itunless we create that break, and
(44:14):
the idea of getting away,getting quiet and getting
reflective is really powerful.
I really wanna thank you foryour time today, jennifer, and
for, as I mentioned previously,balancing multiple depends on
your time we will link to SustiVibes and some the National
(44:35):
Geographic feature and otherpieces in the show notes and I
just wanted to really sincerelythank you and wish you the best
in your continued visit in theUnited States and I'll let you
get back to hanging out withyour son.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Thank you, this was amazing.
Thank you, I really, reallyappreciate it.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Thank you.
Welcome, Jennifer.
Thank you so much for joiningus today for this conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Thank you, it's such a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
I appreciate your when I asked you prior in our
pre-chat about where you are inthe world right now.
You you know you're on the EastCoast, but you mentioned that
you sometimes can't quiteremember where you are right.
You move around so much, youtravel, you have so many
currents flowing in your life.
Why don't you start with, ifyou would, telling us about your
(00:32):
origin story, where you comefrom and what brings you to this
present moment?
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Well, I'm Igbo and that's my primary identity,
besides being a woman, and I'mfrom the tribe of the Igbos,
based off in Nigeria, andNigeria is in West Africa, so a
lot of the times I identify withthat tribe and being Black
(01:01):
African and a young person, Iwould say, who's really
passionate about theenvironmental work.
But growing up as an Igbo womanor a daughter, I think there are
threads of oppression that Ialways saw within the society I
grew up with, within my internalfamily system.
(01:24):
That I feel has shaped who I'vebecome today.
So now I show up in the worldas a climate activist and
someone who's very passionateabout the intersection of mental
health and well-being issues,even as activists and, you know,
climate leaders.
And I think that thread alwayscame from the childhood.
(01:46):
I grew up in just wanting toadvocate for people who never
felt like they had a voice orjust being angry all the time
about the things that wereunfair in the world as I saw it
as a child growing up, so that Iwould say has led me to this
point.
(02:06):
It's constantly looking tosolve problems, problems that
show up first in my own life,that I personally have to deal
with, and then saying, well, ifI find a solution to this or if
I'm part of a group trying tosolve this problem, then maybe
to make the world a better placeone way or the other.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah, when people think of climate change, at
first blush people think aboutrising sea levels.
In the media they think aboutpolar bears having an
ever-shrinking environment.
I know a lot of people who sayI want to do a cruise to Alaska
before there's nothing to seethere.
(02:46):
I haven't heard anyone beforekind of stumbling into your work
talk about mental health,anxiety and the intersection
with climate change.
So that's what really drew meto your story story.
(03:08):
Can you expand on those ideasand then talk about how it has
really been immediately presentin your life and the life of
young people around the world,but also in West Africa?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Sure, that's a great question, and some of those
examples you gave are all partof you know narratives that you
know have been, you know havebecome dominant within the
climate change.
You know stories it doesn'tinvalidate them, but they are
not like all there is to theproblem, as it were.
So my work with climate changeand mental health, I think, came
(03:40):
from my experience as a climateactivist in Nigeria.
You know organizing workingwith young people to.
You know run nature-basedprojects, community projects.
You know cleanup initiatives.
I have constantly poured myselfinto doing the work that
protects the environment, andsomewhere along the line I felt
(04:03):
extremely burnt out, overwhelmedand anxious as a result, and
anxious in the sense thatclimate change is an extremely
big problem.
It's big to tackle.
It's not just about, you know,carbon in the atmosphere, the
weather changing.
It's about systems changing.
It's about the power andinjustice and the oppression
(04:25):
that comes as a result of it,and so for me, these realities
came kind of flashing back andit just seemed like I was a drop
in the ocean.
And that's what you find with alot of young people who are
interested in, you know,supporting the movement or
making change.
You know supporting themovement or making change and
that anxiety, that fear, anger,you know, and grief that I was
(04:48):
feeling.
I later came to understand thatit's, you know, a concept
within you know, environmentalpsychology and climate and
mental health literature, as youknow eco-anxiety, climate
anxiety and the likes.
But for me it was first thatfeeling of extreme powerlessness
and overwhelm.
And it wasn't just mepersonally the young people that
(05:11):
I walked with also sensed itand, you know they just kept
thinking what it's what we'redoing, even enough, you know,
can this even make the change,especially on the backdrop of
the news that we hear everysingle day, you know, you hear
headlines like less than 10years, you know, to save the
planet, or you know there's, no,there won't be life after now.
(05:32):
So you find young people, youknow, choosing not to have
children.
You find people making a lot ofreally strong decisions and big
decisions as a result of theclimate crisis and these
realities that we're having toface.
All of those are encapsulatedwithin the climate, mental
health, conceptualization.
(05:54):
But even beyond some of thesefeelings I've spoken about,
older people are dealing withsomething called solastagia,
which has to do with the loss of, you know, identity and the
places that they've always known, you know, seeing that change
over time.
I've heard, you know, olderpeople in Nigeria talk about how
(06:15):
the Lagos and Lagos is a majorcity in Nigeria the Lagos they
lived in is no longer what we'rehaving to live in and they feel
very sorry for us, but alsothey're grieving that reality
that's changing, you know, interms of how.
You know, the ecosystem initself is changing and things
are no longer the way they usedto be.
(06:36):
Fruits no longer come, you know, in particular season and
things are just, you know,scrambled, as some of them say,
and that's something we seecoming up.
That grieving, that loss ofidentity that comes, for example
, if you have to migrate as aresult of a massive flood, you
know that destroys yourcommunity.
(06:56):
Farmers are having to grievetheir livelihood that they're
losing.
So this is beyond, you know,just talking about climate
adaptation is how deeply is, youknow, this impacting people on
a psychological level, and notjust in terms of how they cope,
but how they even envision theirplace in the world?
(07:17):
You know, can you haveconversations with these people
about being a climate activistor climate actors?
It's very difficult to imaginea better world or a climate safe
world when you're interfacedwith this reality.
So all of that reality is whatI've been exploring,
particularly building evidenceon what this looks like in
(07:39):
Africa, because oftentimes youdon't always find the evidence
and literature, because lessresearch is done on our end of
the world, and I've just beenreally motivated to create this
opportunity to learn more aboutthe problem, explore and
experiment with solutions toreally build resilience.
Because, again, when you look atthe injustice of the climate
(08:01):
crisis, look at the injustice ofthe climate crisis, africa,
despite contributing less toglobal warming, you know, gets
to be at the brunt of it and wedon't have the infrastructure to
even bounce back and to buildresilience.
So when there is a massiveclimate disaster, it hits us
really bad, you know, and it'sdifficult to kind of bounce back
(08:23):
and to move forward after that.
So a lot of my work has beenlooking at how people cope, how
people dream, how people, youknow, build resilience following
a disaster.
But even before that, even forthe young people who live, you
know, in regions in Africa thatyou know may face a climate
disaster sooner or later, whatdoes that look like for them and
(08:46):
what are their perception ofrisks, mental health issues that
could potentially come up?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
In response to what you were experiencing, what you
saw among young people, youstarted an organization.
Can you talk to us about that?
And also, it has a catchy name,so talk to us about that.
And also it has a catchy name,so talk to us about that, what
the name means, susti vibes andand everything kind of
surrounding that sure, actuallyit's a funny story because susti
(09:15):
vibes existed way before Istarted the climate and mental
health work.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
what I did was to start a project within sustie
Vibes that then focused on this,and Softie Vibes you know yes,
it's catchy, you know started alittle less than 10 years ago
and that was my entry into thiswork, as it were.
I wanted to bring young peopleto be excited, you know, and
(09:42):
relate to sustainability issuesand get them on board, and we
did that.
You know, within the firstthree years we had lots and lots
of young people acrosscommunities in Nigeria showing
up, you know, as volunteers,working on multiple
sustainability projects.
But three years in that burnoutand overwhelm started to, you
(10:03):
know, kind of engulf us and westarted something called the Eco
Anxiety Africa Project, whichis a sub project within Susti
Vibes, now being, you know, setup to be an organization of its
own.
And what we do at TIP is lots ofresearch on building the
evidence on what this reallymeans for us as Africans, on
(10:24):
building the evidence on whatthis really means for us as
Africans, and also advocacy,trying to make a case and
validate that these emotions arereal and valid and it's
something that we feel asAfricans, because there are
arguments that you know this isa white person's problem, as it
were.
And side by side, you know,running community projects.
So, whether it'sintergenerational projects with
(10:45):
our elders to build resilience,whether it's projects around,
you know, having our version ofa climate cafe, so talk therapy
and spaces where we talk aboutthe problems and what we feel we
can do within.
You know, guided climate awarekind of psychotherapy support
and really looking at ways tomove from this feeling of
(11:08):
despair and hopelessness to justcoming out of this space is
feeling a bit more confident andcourageous and hopeful and
feeling that we can continue todo the work because we need that
and we need that at a large,you know, scale.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
How do you work with young people who may very likely
be focused first and foremoston economic survival?
I know in the United States mydaughter's in her early 20s and
it's a tough time forgenerationally that age group of
(11:45):
individuals to think about whata career looks like.
Can they ever afford to buy ahome?
That's certainly considerationin California, with just
skyrocketing cost of living andyoung people coming out of
college or coming out of highschool how they're going to fit
in, and I often think that partof the challenge.
(12:07):
You know, people lament the factthat, oh, the young, at least
in the United States oh well,the young set doesn't vote.
They don't come out to vote.
Even though they're registeredand they can, they don't.
They're focused on other things.
I think that's anoversimplification, but it's
always a challenge, at least inthe United States.
Older voters tend to be theones who come out and and and
(12:28):
express their themselves at theballot box.
There's other ways to getinvolved in society, but how do
you handle that topic in anAfrican context, right when
people I'd imagine especiallyyounger people might say oh yeah
, I can sit around and talkabout this, but I have to.
Just I got to pay the rent.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I got to do that.
So how do you kind of blendthose two, recognizing the
realities that people have intheir daily lives?
But then also, this issomething that, from a talk
therapy standpoint, if you wantto use that term, it's.
It's important now, but it'salso important.
It's never going to not beimportant.
Yeah, this is for the rest oftheir lives.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I mentioned that we have ourversion of of you know, these
spaces and it's called Zen Cafeand what we've done and again,
if I can backtrack, and whatwe've done and again, if I can
(13:36):
backtrack, whenever we talkabout this climate and mental
health conversation in Africa,it's not in silos of the
existing socioeconomic issues.
I would say most of the time.
That's the big thing, that'sthe problem.
It's how does the climatecrisis as thing happening side
by side?
How does it make existingmatters worse, right, how does
it make it harder to get a job?
How does it make it harder tocope and to move out of the
(13:56):
poverty line?
So, within the spaces, withinthe projects that we run, that's
really a big thing.
That shows up.
You know, it's people'sinability to hope or see a
future.
So it's almost like with all ofthe things that we have to deal
with as young Africans, there'sthis added layer of the climate
crisis and that's what'sextremely difficult.
(14:19):
So these conversations are verymuch valid and there are a lot
of of things that we talk about.
So, within a climate cafe and Ican share some resources.
You know that speaks to how wedesign this.
You know settings.
Within those conversations, youwould find that you know people
are talking about not havingjobs.
(14:40):
Having jobs, you know, peopleare talking about how, you know,
the quality of schools they hadattended is impacting their
ability to do X, y, z in theircurrent state.
So we find that these issuesare interlinked.
And, again, the climate crisisis not just about, you know, the
environment or the weatherchanging.
(15:01):
For us in Africa, what we seeas the environment is the
platform that you're able tothrive and survive in.
And if that environment, youknow, in a sense, is being
impacted by the climate crisisbecause there's insecurity,
that's, you know, being impactedright now in Nigeria as a
result, there's, you know, foodinsecurity.
(15:22):
You know that we're having tograpple with.
And when you start to connectthe dots, you know that we're
having to grapple with and whenyou start to connect the dots,
you see that this is part of abigger problem and we have to
talk about it.
You know we have to talk aboutissues like energy transition
because right now in Lagos, amemo has just gone out to say
we're going to have power issuesfor the entire month.
(15:43):
So you know these things comeup, you know, and you know staff
are saying well, how are wegoing to get power to work from
home?
You know this is going to bevery difficult.
So it's all.
It's all part of theconversation.
You don't even put them asseparate things.
We see, you know the climatecrisis and all of the crisis, as
(16:03):
it were, as part of this bigthing that we're having to deal
with, you know, side by side,all at once, and that's the
unfortunate reality.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
And I'd also imagine that, you know, being such a
massive continent with such avariety of um, both
socio-economic, political,geographical differences, right
in realities, I'm sure africa'sgot its own massive range of
(16:36):
both sense of urgency aboutthese issues and even caring
about it all the way to, as yousay, hey, I don't know if I can
work from home because I'm notgoing to have internet, because,
like, there's going to berolling blackouts or something
in the city because the powergrid can't handle it.
Have you experienced that inyour conversations?
(16:57):
Like, I'm sure that it variesreally widely, right?
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
And something we're now tryingto do with a project called Zen
Guardians is we're now lookingto have conversations across
Africa, but kind of contextual.
So in Uganda, we're doingsomething different, working
with the young people there.
In South Africa, you know,something different is happening
(17:24):
and in Nigeria, you know it's adifferent conversation, all
within the same framework.
From my experience with SustiVibes even, you know, in Nigeria
Nigeria is a big country, youhave 240 million people.
Even within Nigeria, differenttribes, different states,
different cities, just havetheir peculiarities.
(17:45):
The climate issues aredifferent.
The framings and narratives ofhow people understand the
problem, you know, how they care, how they respond, is different
.
There is a faith dimension thatyou have to also, you know,
explore oftentimes.
So we've learned that there'sno one size fits all in the ways
that we address and talk topeople.
(18:06):
So, again, cultural sensitivitycomes to play, but we don't
come into the spaces like wehave the solution.
We're all trying to figure itout together and by the young
people I'm talking, peoplewithin the community are
volunteering their time, youknow, through a participatory
process to try and figure outwhat does resilience look like
(18:27):
for us, you know, and how can weshow up in the world feeling a
little bit, you know, morehopeful than we were the other
day.
So it's definitely difficult.
There are weeks, you know, justvery recently, part of the
middle belt in Nigeria was justattacked by headsmen and lots of
people lost their life.
(18:48):
And you know, the next day wejust, you know, couldn't imagine
doing our work because it justdidn't make sense.
And that's, you know, in thatplace because a lot of the young
people there would not welcomeany conversation because they're
extremely upset.
And you know we we realizedthat this is just the complexity
and you know the difficulty ofworking in this space, that it's
(19:11):
real life issues.
You know it's not something youcan just do on Excel and you
know, share on a screen, this isactual people.
You know people's lives andfutures being impacted on a day
to day.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
What has been the politicization of these
conversations in the Africancontext?
The conversations around evenwhether to call it global
warming or climate change in theUnited States.
That's this whole hot debate,and then within that it's split
left and right about both, whatmeasures should be taken, or
(19:47):
whether you know, should weshould, should we have the green
new deal, which was somethingthat's proposed, and then on the
left, the fairly far left, andthen the right comes back and
says, no, that'll kill industry.
We need to have, you know,bring it.
Or, in the case of a currentadministration, oh, we're going
to bring back coal and thatwhole industry fighting back and
(20:08):
forth.
I knew in preparation fortoday's conversation that when
we air this, I'm going to havepeople who are very enthusiastic
about the concept of helpingyoung people with eco-anxiety
and then people who go, ah,that's just a bunch of nonsense.
The climate in the world haschanged and will continue to
(20:29):
change and always has changed,and these are just natural
cycles and if we do too muchwe're going to curtail industry
and we're going to hurt people'sstandard of living.
So that's a really longstatement to ask you have you
seen those conflicts in theAfrican context between left and
right, and industry andactivism.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Well, that's a big question, I think, for us.
A lot of the conversationswithin, you know, climate change
has always been fossil fuelversus no fossil fuel, and we
are heavily dependent on, youknow oil in Africa and all of
that, and so the conversationagainst has always been if we do
(21:17):
not exploit and, you know,extract that oil, then how do we
develop?
You know, especially when youthink of how, you know Western
countries also developed fromthe same process and system.
So it's a very difficultconversation.
This talk about energytransition and what that looks
like Within political systems.
(21:39):
It's constantly finding a wayto do the right thing, but not
having a financial impactbecause we need the money right.
So that has always been thedifficulty how do we innovate in
ways that are, how do weinnovate in ways that do not
harm the environment at the sametime?
(21:59):
And again, within industry, sowe don't have the kind of
left-right structure, but youhave people saying, well, we
need the money, we need the oil.
You know we need to continuebusiness as usual because that's
the way, and you know theargument that we contributed
least to the problem.
So is climate change really anAfrican problem to deal with?
(22:22):
And whereas there, you knowthis other school of thought
saying, well, you can't spendmoney on a dead planet.
We are getting, you know theheat of the problem, so we need
to hold, you know the West andpeople who have more money
accountable, but also we need todo better and you know kind of
leapfrog in a way that issmarter and cleaner and so
(22:46):
pushing for more ambitious andurgent.
You know climate, energy, peoplein rural parts of Nigeria and
(23:12):
you find that they understand,you know these changes, you know
things not being the same orhow it was, but they will never
call it climate change because,yeah, they would.
You know they would, they woulddescribe it in different ways.
They would describe it indifferent ways and then kind of
(23:33):
have experimented differentapproaches to adapt and to deal
with.
You know the problem to trythis when this happens, to try
this when this happens in termsof you know whether it's the
ones who you know work withanimals or the actual crop
farmers.
So it's, it's an issue thatpeople are aware of but not
directly linked out.
They won't call it oh, this isa climate change problem or I'm
(23:55):
an activist trying to make theworld better in this way,
basically, and then obviously welook to, unfortunately, we look
to the West, we look to placeslike America for best practices
and we don't see a lot of thatin recent times and that,
unfortunately, has emboldenedpeople who think otherwise and
(24:17):
has escalated the feelings ofhopelessness, because it's
almost like if the people whohave more money, who should be
doing right, don't even believein the problem.
You know, is there really afighting chance really?
And it's what we're having tograpple with, especially, you
know, within the work that we do.
(24:38):
This comes up a lot within our,you know, zen Cafe conversations
.
You know of young people sayingyou know, what really is the
point If X, y is happening inthis part of the world, with the
people who have the resources,the people who can make a lot of
changes?
So, yeah, it's just a tough,tough reality, but it comes on
(24:59):
our end, but in different ways.
And energy transition has beenthe latest one.
You know.
Climate finance has also been abig one conversations around net
zero and what that means for usin Africa and if we have the
technology and the know-how toactually drive something like
(25:19):
that.
And moving beyond commitmentsand pledges to actually looking
at what does a net zero mean forAfricans, you know, for places
where they haven't seen power atall and they would, you know,
embrace anything at all, whetherit's clean or dirty, and they
need that power because thatwould push employment, that
would push education and all ofthat.
(25:40):
So it's definitely a difficultconversation when you think of
what energy transition or evenlarger issues like climate
adaptation look like for placeslike Africa.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
What have your conversations around nuclear
energy been?
Speaker 2 (25:57):
That's not something that comes up a lot within us,
to be honest, so it's notsomething that we have really
paid attention to.
That we have really paidattention to.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
It's such an interesting.
Well, returning to yourprevious comments around kind of
looking to the West, I know inthe United States people say,
well, if you look at right nowwho pollutes, you know who's
polluting at an inordinate rate.
You can look at China, you canlook at India, and then China,
(26:32):
and India, in particular China,with massive industrial
revolution in a very, very shortamount of time, much shorter
than the United States was, butbecause of the population, you
know, a significant impact, kindof.
The comments are well, yeah,well, you know the U?
S, you guys had yourmodernization, you had your
(26:53):
massive standard of living.
Uh, increases in in.
Now we're doing it, and we'redoing it faster and we're doing
it more efficiently.
And we've had these, matt, thelargest migration of humans in
the history of the planet hasbeen from rural to to urban
China, right, uh, and then, ofcourse, now china's population
is slowing down and then you'regoing to have india.
(27:14):
Um, I, I just always thinkabout.
It's almost this thing whereyou go.
And, and as you mentionedafrica, what we know is that
africa has contributed little tonothing to the to the problem,
right, from an industrializationstandpoint.
Um, but you're sufferinginordinate impacts.
And then you look to us and wego, oh well, we're doing this,
(27:37):
check out china and china's like, well, you guys caused this,
yeah, hundred years, and someanwhile it's kind of I can see
where that I I'm gettinganxious just having this
conversation with you.
Yeah, it's stressful, yeah, andthe reason I bring up the
nuclear is, just as it's alwaysbeen a curiosity of mine,
because nuclear energy issomething that I've heard now in
(28:03):
recent conversations, in termsof sustainability and impact to
the environment, as long asthere's not a nuclear disaster
but because of Chernobyl andbecause of Three Mile Island in
New York that, by the way, noone died from Three Mile Island
and the Japanese power plantdisaster that was caused by a
(28:26):
tsunami that also had minimalimpact, but those are in the
press and these high profileevents that just drive massive
fear.
And so much of our dialogue, somuch of our decision-making is,
as you say, is narrative driven,and if the narrative is not
complete and the narrative isn'tcomprehensive and the narrative
(28:47):
is not thoughtful, then we'reall just making I always use
this term intellectually lazy orknee-jerk reaction decisions
and no one's asking hey, how'sthis going to play in Nigeria?
Or how is this going to playwith this particular ethnic
group that has already beenmarginalized multiple times over
(29:09):
and now, because of changes tothe environment, they're having
to migrate, and now they'remaybe even I'm sure we're seeing
loss of native languages, we'reseeing loss of native practices
, agricultural practices, rightLike these are really really
critical issues.
How is Susti Vibes sustained?
Do you get donations or talk tous about that?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Sure, so we do get donations, but oftentimes we're
applying for grants yeah, from,you know, locally, within
corporations in Nigeria or, youknow, outside the country.
So we have funders, like youknow, you know, based in America
, who are interested in youthwork, youth and climate work,
(29:55):
who are interested in climatechange and mental health work.
So it's constantly a game ofapplying, spending late nights
and just pouring a lot of ourtimes applying, applying for
grants.
We do have a small socialenterprise system where we have
a space and people can come into use the space, and so that
(30:17):
also supports with someoperational costs around the
office.
But funding is, and I think itwill always be, an issue with
climate work because there's somuch to do and very little
resources and opportunitiesavailable.
And I think it will always bean issue with climate work
because there's so much to doand very little resources and
opportunities available.
And I think with Africa, we'reconstantly in competition.
Unfortunately, everyone istrying to apply and just say the
(30:42):
right things to get the fundingin.
So it's not the easiest process, it's not the most ideal, I
would say, because it almostreinforces that kind of
capitalist struggle mentalityand you know we're constantly
having to work hard to look forfunding.
One of my colleagues and I werejust talking about how it's
(31:05):
almost like we spend more time,you know, applying for grants
than actually doing you know thework that we want to do, and
you can fall into a trap whereyou just do the work that your
donor needs and you just checkthat box rather than what you
actually want to do.
So it's very difficult and Iwould say with Susti Vibes, we
(31:26):
probably could have gone a lotfarther if we took all kinds of
funding.
You know so.
For example, we'd never setmoney from an oil and gas
company, and even though theyare the richest corporations in
Nigeria.
But that means that we have tostay true to our mission and
remain, you know, less, you knowless sustainable, I would say,
(31:48):
just as a result.
So we still have to keep someof our projects more scale until
we're able to find those, youknow, the right kind of donors
that are flexible and aremission oriented and that trust
us enough to, you know, run someof these projects large scale.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
We've spoken about a lot of the challenges, the
impacts of anxiety and fear andhopelessness and you talked
about.
There are these retreats orthese conferences that are being
set up so that climateactivists can go and rest
somewhere.
On the flip side of that,Jennifer, what gives you hope?
(32:25):
Why do you get up every day andkeep doing this work?
Speaker 2 (32:29):
That is such a great question.
I think, and I really believe,that the work that I do is
important.
It's creating that rippleeffect, right?
Someone sees our work andthey're motivated to keep
showing up.
So that alone helps me, right.
(32:50):
And I think that if we crashout and we're no longer able to
do our work, it's going toimpact a lot of things that you
know, a lot of dreams thatpeople have.
It's going to impact the waypeople imagine what climate
action looks like and for me,that helps me.
You know, just thinking that I'msupporting one person in their
(33:13):
own aspiration of you knowmaking change, like you know,
making climate action a realityin their community, doing
something.
So it's really been about that,you know, beyond serving me and
helping me stay sane, becauseequal anxiety is something that
I have grappled with.
So I am energized by showing upand doing something about you
(33:38):
know the problem, but I thinkabout it the entire value chain
of you know who gets impactedbeyond the beneficiaries who
come to our events, you know whoare supported one way or the
other is the fact that more andmore people are also thinking
solutions.
More and more people arethinking well, you know, this
(33:58):
space has helped me think ofsomething I can start.
You know you've talked aboutnuclear energy today.
You know that's something thatcould come up within.
You know our conversationswhere someone decides well, I'm
going to study this in-depthly,I'm going to do something about
it and I want to work in thisspace.
So for me, it's beyond theadaptation.
I think the work that I'm doinghas that double-pronged
(34:21):
approach where we're actuallylooking at ways to mitigate the
climate crisis.
One conversation or oneresilience, you know approach at
the time and I think that'sreally powerful.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
I'm glad you mentioned the ripple effect,
because you know mostorganizations, most nonprofits,
most businesses in the world,most businesses in the world are
small yeah, they're one or twoor five or 10 people, and
without that energy, almost thebutterfly effect, right, if the
(34:55):
butterfly doesn't flap its wings, then we'll never know if it's
going to change the air currentsaround the world somewhere,
right, and so I reallyappreciate you for that.
How have your studies connectedto the work of Susti Vibes?
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Well, that's also an interesting story.
So my bachelor's was inbiochemistry, and this was many
years ago.
I graduated in 2011, and I cameout of, you know, the bachelor's
just wanting to learn aboutsustainability, learn about the
(35:32):
work that I do, and I couldn'tget into a master's program for
eight whole years and when Ifinally got into it, that's how
I started doing a lot of thework on climate change and
mental health.
So it's been an interestingjourney for me and I'm now
completing an MPH.
I think I'm motivated to keeplearning about the ways that I
(35:56):
can do my work better, but alsoa part of it has felt like I
need to get this validation.
You know, with these degrees,that these days I've started to
question, you know, if that'sreally necessary, but it's been
an interesting experience.
I would say how you know, doingone thing leads to the other.
(36:16):
You know, with the masters,with the MPH, and you know this
journey that I found myself in.
But I'm privileged to keepdoing my work and my studies
side by side and I know thatthat is such a gift and a
privilege to be able to do bothside by side.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
I have deep respect for you and your multiple energy
efforts.
Obviously, as a parent of ayoung child, that's an
additional, that's the mostimportant area that your energy
needs to go to.
So you are balancing andmanaging.
So thank you again, you know,for taking the time today from
(36:54):
New Jersey to balance parenthoodand your ongoing work on
climate, as well as yourgraduate program.
And I know the feeling of beingkind of halfway through.
I always talk about like thecaterpillar.
Before the caterpillar turnsinto a butterfly it has to go
into the cocoon, you know, andthen in the cocoon and it's like
(37:18):
there's some point in therewhich it's probably just like
some sort of amorphous greenjuice before it comes out as a
butterfly.
And being in the middle of agraduate program kind of feels
that way.
Sometimes, right, you're like,oh, please don't ask me about my
programs going, because I'm ina program and I don't know when
I'm going to come out of theprogram.
So I'm kind of green juice,right, thank you.
(37:43):
What are you?
You I'm just.
I have two more questions foryou, sure?
What are you most proud of inyour work and that the
organization?
I know it's not about you.
So what are you most proud ofin the work of susti vibes and
overall in your climate activism.
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
I think I'm proud of the fact that we're able to
bring a lot of our ideas to life.
It's incredible, you know.
We say, oh, we're going tocreate space to talk about these
issues, a space that validatesthe emotions that young people
(38:21):
feel, and we're going to makethis a thing.
And we do it, and it's like theworld catches up with it.
You know, we're then gettingfeatures from National
Geographic, you know, and all ofthat, we think, well, we're not
going to stop here.
We're going to invite youth-ledorganizations from other parts
of the continent to join thiswalk and to build on it from
(38:44):
there.
And we go ahead and do it.
I think that ability to dreamand bring things to life is one
of our proudest, you know,accomplishments, where we're
constantly thinking how are wegoing to make this happen?
And somehow, you know, it justaligns that.
You know, we're able to pour inour time, build out the concept
(39:04):
notes, and it happens.
And you know one examplerecently is we're just currently
concluding a project wherewe're working with young girls
who live in Lagos and trying tobuild this idea of rest side by
side with feminist leadership,and when we were writing the
concept notes, it just seemed so, you know, like not something
(39:28):
anyone would want to jump onright now.
Who's talking about restingwith all of the issues going on?
But we were very fortunate to,you know, find a funder and find
the supports to drive the work.
And we've just closed outcohort one of the training, and
it's just incredible to see thatwe're able to bring these
things to life.
(39:49):
And to the previous question,Susti Vibes and I think my walk
is proof of the things thatyoung people can bet, the things
that young people can do.
We are 100% youth-led and kindof everyone that we work with is
a young person.
We're all dreaming together,we're all thinking through how
(40:09):
to, you know, make some changeand our agenda is just to make
the world a better place for,you know, ourselves and you know
, the future generation coming,and I think it's just incredible
to see some of the things thatwe've done, in spite of the odds
, in spite of not having, youknow, not having a salary that
(40:30):
you can brag to your friendsabout, you know, not having you
know things that you know like,when you think about it,
comparable, but we feel very, wefeel very fulfilled in this
purposeful work.
It's exhausting, but you know,we can be proud of some of the
things that we've done, thelives that we've changed, and
(40:50):
just seeing how people'sjourneys are shaped because they
interact with you know our workone way or the other.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
As you mentioned the National Geographic.
I want to congratulate you onbeing mentioned in there, and
that's how I learned.
That was the initial way inwhich you popped up on my radar
and then went deeper with someresearch, but that's quite an
honor, right?
There's a lot of organizationsand people and activists and
initiatives around the worldliterally millions of them.
(41:20):
So you're one in many millions,thank you.
Millions of them.
So so you're one.
You're one in in many millions.
Um, the last question is ahypothetical and I'm not even
that much of a fan of billboards, but for the thought experiment
, this is what.
This is what the question is.
You have a chance to create abillboard for the side of the,
(41:41):
of the highway, the freeway, the, depending on where you are in
the world we call them differentthings but a place that
thousands and maybe millions ofpeople pass by every day, week,
month and year.
What does your billboard say tothe world about what you
believe, about your work, aboutthe way you see the present and
(42:02):
the future?
Speaker 2 (42:03):
about the way you see the present and the future.
That's such a big question, butlately I've just been
resonating with the walks andquotes of someone I admire and
really respect.
His name is Dr Bayo Akomalafep.
He's Nigerian for shuttles, Ithink, within the US and India,
and you know he talks about.
(42:25):
He has this really interestingquote that says the times are
urgent and we need to slow down,and that has been.
You know, that has beensomething that I've been
thinking about a lot.
You know how.
You know this idea of slowingdown can even drive and help,
you know, with the eco-anxietywork that we do, but also with
(42:46):
the climate crisis.
So much of all that we do runsin such, you know, fumes and
urgency and you know we'rewalking like it's a sprint, you
know, and people are burnt outand exhausted and we're not
making as much progress.
So I want a billboard thatencapsulates some of those ideas
(43:07):
in terms of slowing down butholding space to realize that
the times are indeed urgent,right, so that's not something
to discard, but we want to slowdown, we want to come together
and we want to think ofalternative ways of being and of
doing, want to think ofalternative ways of being and of
(43:28):
doing.
That's something I definitelywant to build on.
You know, following now and alot of the work that we do
pushes that.
You know that idea of rest andslowing down, but I think
bringing it forward into theclimate conversation is
something that I want to drivemoving forward.
That's ambitious, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
That's a beautiful thing to think about, a
beautiful sentiment to thinkabout, especially in our
incredibly and increasinglyfast-paced world, yeah, where
there is no break from the newscycle, the social media cycle,
whatever cycle you want.
There is no break from itunless we create that break, and
(44:14):
the idea of getting away,getting quiet and getting
reflective is really powerful.
I really wanna thank you foryour time today, jennifer, and
for, as I mentioned previously,balancing multiple depends on
your time we will link to SustiVibes and some the National
(44:35):
Geographic feature and otherpieces in the show notes and I
just wanted to really sincerelythank you and wish you the best
in your continued visit in theUnited States and I'll let you
get back to hanging out withyour son.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Thank you, this was amazing.
Thank you, I really, reallyappreciate it.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Thank you.
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