September 28, 2025 • 55 mins
What happens when tragedy transforms a life's purpose? For Patrick Larkin, losing his father to suicide in seventh grade made school his sanctuary—a place where caring teachers filled voids and structure provided stability. Decades later, this experience continues to shape his approach as a veteran school administrator.
Content warning: this episode contains mature content including discussions of suicide.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:02):
Welcome to the Hangout Podcast.
I'm your host, David Sheretta.
Come on in and hang out.
In this episode, I wasprivileged to have a
conversation with PatrickLarkin.
Patrick Larkin is a veteranschool administrator.
Before being a school leader invarious capacities, which he's
(00:26):
done for nearly 30 years, he wasalso a teacher.
Before that, he was a coach anda substitute teacher, and before
that, a sports writer.
So Patrick and I cover a lot ofground in this conversation.
He talked about his use oftechnology, blogging,
(00:46):
podcasting, et cetera, inexpressing his views, in leading
within a community.
Patrick's approach is humble,thoughtful, nuanced, and
refreshing.
I hope you enjoy thisconversation as much as I did.
Welcome, Patrick.
Thank you for joining us thisafternoon for a conversation.
(01:10):
Thanks for having me.
I thought we could start wherewe start with all of these
conversations, which is withyour origin story, where you
come from and how that informswho you are today, the work you
do, the beliefs you hold.
SPEAKER_03 (01:26):
Yeah, no, I think that's important.
Um so uh I grew up in centralMassachusetts in um a town
called Menden, uh small townsuburb of uh Boston.
And uh my mother was a schoolteacher, so education became you
know something that was reallyin my world from from an early
(01:49):
days.
And then um remember going toschool with her, you know, as a
as a little kid and hanging outin her classroom.
And um, it was always a funplace to be.
School was always a good placefor me.
And then uh when I was inseventh grade, I lost my dad to
suicide, and um school becameeven more important for me
(02:09):
because it filled some voids forme, like time, constructive
time, wasn't rushing home allthe time, and there were a lot
of you know, male teachers thatkind of filled some voids for
me, and you know, and I was justvery fortunate to be in a place
where a small school whereeverybody knew who I was, and
I'm sure I didn't realize it atthe time, but I know people paid
(02:32):
extra attention because you knowthey were worried, and people
know you know my mom was ateacher, not in the same place,
and so I feel fortunate, andthat definitely impacted, I
think, me um landing ineducation.
I I went to uh uh a small schoolin Worcester Mass called
Assumption College from there,now Assumption University.
(02:53):
And uh, they didn't have asecondary ed program at the
time, and so I ended up dabblingin elementary education.
Um, but as a 19-year-old goingto an elementary school and
having um all the little kidssurrounding me, I was a little
over my head at that point.
(03:13):
Like they were very clingy, andI just as a 19-year-old didn't
have a lot of experience workingwith a lot of young kids, had
experience coaching older kids.
So um I ended up kind of pullingback a little bit.
I ended up being a sports writeruh for a little while for a
local paper out of college.
And then one of those mentors Imentioned from my high school
days, my high school baseballcoach called me and he's like,
(03:36):
hey, uh, we need a baseballcoach over here at another local
school uh to coach the freshmanteam.
I think you'd be great.
So I started coaching thefreshman baseball team.
And from there, um, I'm like, Ilove doing this.
I need to find a way to be inschools more often.
And I started as a substituteteacher, which I loved.
And I think if you love being asubstitute teacher, it can be a
(03:58):
challenging job because you'rein a different room every day,
never really know what you'regetting, and it's not your
classroom.
I'm like, I knew like if I couldgo back and get the final few
classes I need to become a highschool teacher, um, have my own
classroom, maybe do somecoaching.
I'm like, this this is gonna bea pretty good deal for me.
And so that's what I did.
SPEAKER_02 (04:20):
So it's interesting, you know.
We thank you for thank you forthat.
And and it's when you underlineyou underline the fact that this
this role of the school as ananchor in kids' lives.
Um, I think so often that canget lost in just the daily uh
(04:42):
stressors of education, right?
Just all the demands on oneducators and and the the
requirements and the standardsand everything else.
But it sounds like your life asa has been just a just a real
example of that anchoringstabilizing force when when your
family goes through tragedy.
SPEAKER_03 (05:01):
Yeah, um, definitely.
Like the school for a lot of thekids, um I think I was a pretty
good student, and um, you know,I don't think a lot of the
trauma that may have been in thebackground there necessarily
came out in in classroomsettings or anywhere, but I know
(05:23):
I hope it makes me more attuned,like you know, when kids are
coming to school and things arehappening, like there's a
behavioral issue, everybody willsay behavior is uh, you know,
kids are telling you theirfeelings, there's something
going on, and um, just to not totake things personally and to
like find out their story, likeget to know the kids.
(05:43):
And um just kids are goingthrough a lot, and um so I I do
I do hope, I like to think thatmy background story helps me
have a little more empathy andand pry a little and try to get
to know students, and certainlyunfortunately, I've been
involved like in the years, likehaving um families lose kids the
(06:05):
same way that my dad, we lost mydad, and having kids lose
parents, and like certainlythose families you feel an
instant bond to um just becauseit's kind of a a lonely
existence.
But yeah, I I do like to thinkit makes me more sensitive, but
I'm sure there's times where Ifall short of that too, like we
all do.
SPEAKER_02 (06:26):
So you had a little bit of a detour, it sounds like
in into in uh as a sportswriter.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think.
Yeah, how did how talk aboutthat a little bit?
Because that's I'm alwaysintrigued by by those things.
Yeah, I come from a family ofeducators, and I tried my
damnedest to get out of being aneducator for a little bit.
So Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (06:46):
So at Assumption, um, I started out as a social
studies major, and there wasthis one social studies class
where there were no tests, butyou had to write papers, was
like your all your assessmentswere papers.
And then after my freshman yearwas done, that was one of the
classes, I looked at my mygrades, and I'm like, I'm doing
(07:06):
way better in my Englishclasses.
Not that I was doing poorly inmy um in my social studies
class, but my my English gradeswere really strong.
And I'm like, I just changed mymajor, and then when I dropped
the um the double major, I wentto a minor in education.
I'm like, well, what can I dohere?
And I was, I think another thingthat like losing my dad, my
(07:27):
brother and I were sports nuts,like I kind of lost myself in
sports, and um it probablyplayed a a really significant
role for me.
Like, and um then I got intosports writing, which I liked,
it was cool.
I got to be in the Celticslocker room, I got to be in the
Patriots locker room, I got tobe in the Bruins locker room.
Um not the Red Sox because theeditor of the paper covered the
(07:50):
Red Sox and that was his deal.
But um, but anyway, when you'redoing it for a job day to day,
it's like, oh, like it's likeone of those things where don't
let your hobby be your job orsomething.
Um kind of rang true.
I'm like, and I looked aroundthe the newsroom like one night
because it was in the days wherewe have to go into the office
(08:11):
and do our work, or maybe youcould put put up old-fashioned
modem over your phone and sendthe article in, but it was just
easier to be in the office.
So I'm looking around like atlike 1 a.m., taking the train
back from Boston after a Bruinsgame, and I'm like, when I'm 35,
do I want to be here?
Or in my head, I'm like, whatwould be like a step up?
(08:32):
I'm like, maybe I could writefor the Boston Globe someday.
That was like our big localsports paper or phenomenal Peter
Gammons and Dan Shaughnessy andWill McDonald, like these crazy
good, like well-known nationallyum writers.
And I'm like, you know what?
Like, even at 35, if I could beat the globe, I'm not saying I
could have ever gotten there.
I'm like, I'm like, I don'tthink that's the pathway I want
(08:54):
to take.
So shortly thereafter, the callcame in about the coaching
opportunity.
And as soon as I startedcoaching, I'm like, got to get
more in the school day to day.
And so I started subbing at myold high school.
And again, it was funny.
The high school that I went to,I became a sub, got a permanent
teaching job.
Then a few years down the road,I became an assistant principal
(09:16):
in the school I went to, whichwas kind of uh interesting
because I was, you know, theevaluator for some of the
teachers I had when I was a highschool student.
So it was uh it was a really uhinteresting experience, but all
it was all good.
SPEAKER_02 (09:30):
So what is your role right now?
Because I know you've hadclassroom, admin, etc.
SPEAKER_03 (09:36):
Yeah, I did the math this week and um it's year 29 in
school administration for me.
Um so I started as an assistantprincipal at Nipmuck Regional
High School.
That's the school I attended asa student.
I was there for seven years.
Um, and then I remember somebodycoming into the office and like,
what are you still doing here?
It's like, meaning I should begoing for a principal's job
(09:58):
somewhere.
I'm like, yeah, maybe it's time.
So I ended up becoming a um aprincipal at a much larger
school, Peabody High School andPeabody Mass.
Um, it was a great experiencefor me.
Um, I was there for three years.
Um, there was a lot of turmoilpolitically.
I think I had um foursuperintendents in my three
(10:18):
years as a principal.
And um I'm like, you know, as mycontract was coming to an end, I
did get the offer to like extendit.
But I was looking around and Ihad an opportunity to go down
the road to this place calledBurlington Mass.
Um, and I uh was reallyfortunate to land there.
I was principal there for fiveyears, and then I did um I think
(10:40):
it was 11 years in in centraloffice.
Um, and then, you know, thingshappen.
It's time to move on.
So after 16 years there, I hadsome time to think about, you
know, I probably have five yearsleft in that vicinity to as, you
know, because of the way theretirement system works here.
I'm not looking forward to umnot working in public schools in
(11:02):
Massachusetts.
I've loved every minute of it.
But um I had a chance to thinkabout like what was my favorite
position in um it was when I wasan assistant principal, just
because you're so connected tothe kids and like you said,
getting to know their storiesand um trying to help students
that are struggling and be in asupport.
(11:23):
And I I really love that role.
And so I had the chance to go toLexington High uh and I'm in my
third year, and I love themodel.
We have uh 2,400 kids, and wehave five deans of students, and
I'm one of five deans, and weeach run our own student support
team.
So we have our own counselors wework with, social worker, nurse.
(11:45):
Um, and I really love the model,how we're able to like get
together as a group of educatorsand see what kids need our
support and try to put supportsin place.
And um, again, I I've beenblessed honestly.
Like, I feel like every stepalong the way has been the right
step.
Um, so I really have nocomplaints.
I really feel blessed about um,you know, where education is has
(12:09):
has brought me from point A topoint B to the next spot.
SPEAKER_02 (12:13):
In in in such a hierarchical profession, right,
like ours, even if we pretendlike it's not, we know it is.
There's lines that you cross,and then you're on the other
side, or some people say you'reon the dark side, depending,
right?
Yeah.
Um how do you manage that thatuh transition that some people
(12:35):
would call a step down?
Uh, you obviously didn't see itthat way because in your sounds
like your whole journey's been astep up in your experience with
kids, but you moved from acentral office to, you know,
eventually now you're in ayou're in a uh a dean role and
and and loving it.
How did you kind of manage thatand maybe talk a little bit
about how those peerinteractions, colleague
(12:56):
interactions went too?
SPEAKER_03 (12:58):
Yeah, um, no, that's a that's a great point.
It is it is a lot different.
You don't understand untilyou're there um in those
positions that that it's alittle different.
Um my first assistant assistantprincipal's job, I do think I
was fortunate because it was inthis place I grew up in, and um
(13:18):
I think my relationships werestrong with people, so there was
there was never really any bigproblem.
Um obviously it's you know, youcome across people that are
like, you know, do I need aunion rep in this conversation?
Or um I honestly think it's allabout relationships.
Um I think the higher you go up,like you're you know, from
(13:42):
assistant principal toprincipal, you're dealing more
with adult issues at that point.
You're dealing with maybe a fewstaff issues, but a lot of
parents that have concerns orwant certain things for their
kids, and then another step upat um assistant superintendent,
it's even more of that.
It's more of more disconnectedfrom kids, uh dealing with, you
(14:03):
know, union representation aboutthings in schools, and again,
just like people that aren'thappy with what the principal
said and are now coming tocentral office.
And then I'd never reallyaspired to be a superintendent.
I I feel like I was fortunate.
I worked in a central officewhere I had a pretty good voice
(14:24):
in decisions when it, you know,when the superintendent was, you
know, we he let me work closelywith him, and so I feel like I
had a lot of voice and decisionsthat were made.
And yeah, I mean I don't I don'tsee it as ego.
It's more like you I don't feelyou have the same impact on kids
um in a in that position.
(14:45):
That's my feeling.
And may there's certainlydistrict and building leaders
that are able to do things intheir buildings that maybe they
make big policy changes or areable to change practices in
their building or district, andit impacts kids in a positive
way.
Um that wasn't my experience umin that those leadership roles I
(15:07):
felt at some point, and maybethis was a me problem.
I became just part of thesystem.
Like maybe there's some comfortthat comes in, and like I felt
like I could sit, you know, notsit back and do nothing, but you
could just do business the waybusiness has been done and and
go through your career, or I andI and I felt like there were
(15:29):
changes to be made and and thechanges may not have been
happening, so I'm like, wherecan I have an impact?
And I'm like, let's go work withindividual kids.
And yeah, not every situationwill be a success, but I know at
the end of the week, end of thesemester, end of the year, I'll
be able to at least put my handson, you know, a couple of
(15:49):
decisions and say, like, yeah, Ithink I helped with a positive
outcome there.
And I think I don't know, thehigher I went up, I don't think
that I felt the same way aboutthat, you know, and didn't have
those same relationships.
Like that's in the classroomwhere you work with a kid
one-on-one and you're like, oh,we made a great connection.
I helped this student seesomething in themselves.
(16:13):
Um, and I feel like, you know, Ipushed this thing forward
positively.
And at the end of the day or theend of the year, sometimes with
administration, like um, likewith the higher administration
positions, I didn't always feelthat way.
And again, that certainly issomething I need to think about.
Maybe I was over my head inthese positions, I don't know,
(16:33):
but it just it felt it felt theright thing to do to go back and
work with kids.
And so um, I have one second ofit.
I was 100% right, like in what Iremembered about being in that
role.
SPEAKER_02 (16:47):
What what are your biggest challenges?
Uh it sounds like what yourelish about your role is that
you have the opportunity to workreally closely with, I'm
assuming like 600 kids or so,right?
It sounds like approximately,which is a a good, a good, a
good number to be able to learnlearn about their lives and
(17:08):
their stories.
What kind of challenges are youfacing and are they different
from the challenges that youfaced at the beginning of your
career career?
Because you've been fortunate tobe able to span you know two and
a half decades in theprofession.
SPEAKER_03 (17:23):
This first answer, and if we go up a follow-up,
maybe I'll be specific aboutLexington, but I want to be
clear like I'm not necessarilytalking about uh where I am
right now in this answer.
Um but I think again, one of thethings I became disenchanted
with, and um this answer kind ofplays into my privilege and my
(17:43):
background and growing up inupper middle class,
predominantly white community,that I wasn't aware of um
inequities that existed, youknow, in because I grew up in a
place where there wasn't muchdifference.
Like everybody was in this whitesuburb, and that I and it was
great.
This isn't I'm not sayinganything bad about that place
that I grew up.
(18:04):
I I had a great upbringing.
But um as I got older and got togo to like more diverse
settings, starting with Peavy,Burlington, Lexington, like you
start to realize the inequitiesin the system and not
everybody's coming in with thesame privileges.
And you know, when kids aren'tdoing as well, like are we are
(18:26):
we making sure that there'sequitable opportunities,
equitable access?
So I think that is like still abig challenge to make sure like
we're looking at our policiesand our practices to make sure
that you know, whatever thingsare getting in the way of kids
um being successful, like it'snot something that we have in
(18:46):
place that we've just becomeblind to.
And I I think again, all ofthese inequities that I think we
come across or I've come across,they're not things that we're
consciously set up.
Um they're all set up withpositive intent, but we can see
clearly sometimes when we startto look at data that there's
disproportionality um in, youknow, whether it's special ed
(19:09):
students, um, black and brownstudents, lower income students
aren't doing as well.
And if our policy or ourpractice plays a part in that, I
think we need to be willing totake a look at that and look in
the mirror.
And I think sometimes it's notthat we're not willing to do
that, it's just that we'reoverwhelmed with like we don't
(19:30):
we don't know how to fix this.
We've been doing this for solong that we just tend to ride
out these bad practices orpolicies uh for too long.
So I think that's like a bigchallenge that um we, you know,
have a lot of conversationsabout um in my last three
districts.
SPEAKER_02 (19:48):
It's it's interesting this concept of
policy, right?
Like there's one way to look atpolicy is well, that's the
policy, and so we need to followit.
Yep.
And then I remember a professorof mine in a doctoral program, I
think I probably made a commentlike that in one of our
discussions, and he said, Yourealize that policies are made
(20:08):
by people and um groups ofpeople, and they can be changed
by people.
Um and so sometimes it's thatthat also the beginner's mindset
of when you switch to adifferent setting to be able to
look at things in with fresheyes.
Um I I just interviewed asuperintendent in New York who I
(20:33):
think he's been 19 years in thatdistrict and 17 years as
superintendent.
And I asked him about like hisblind spots, and he goes, Well,
you know, one of them is I'vejust been here a really long
time.
And so it's like in a way, it'slike the toaster at home that
the handle's kind of loose onit.
You just found a way to workaround it because you're too
(20:53):
busy to buy a new toaster.
And but if someone comes comesin for the first time in your
house, they're like, What thewhat the hell are you doing?
Just get a new toaster.
Oh, yeah, you're right.
And it's like looking at that.
Have you had was your experiencein other settings?
Because you've moved around,right?
So were you able to kind ofbring that to your current role
and like from an equitystandpoint go, ah, you know
(21:16):
what?
Can we look at this?
Can we look at that?
Do you have any concreteexamples of that?
SPEAKER_03 (21:20):
First of all, like I don't feel like one person can
make these changes.
Right.
Um, so the first step is findingsome colleagues that are also of
a like mind that are like, yeah,we need to change some things.
So in PBD, um, one of the thingswas I think we were a school of
about 1600 when I got there, ifI remember correctly, it's been
(21:41):
a while.
And um there was a lot ofproblems with freshman failure.
Um just some systems in placewhere freshmen weren't doing
well out of the gate.
And obviously, when freshmendon't do well um out of the
gate, like the the data's prettybad if they're if they're not
getting enough credits to passtheir freshman year, um their
(22:04):
success rate for finishing highschool drastically drops.
So we were fortunate to get afederal grant called the Smaller
Learning Communities Grant,which I don't think is around
anymore.
But we're able to kind of breakdown the high school or at least
the front for the freshmen intomore I hate to say it because
it's not the same, but kind of ateam approach like you'd see in
the middle school, where thekids would have like the same
(22:26):
core group of teachers, um andand put this team in place.
And again, that was when I kindof we got the grant, I think I
saw it for a year, so I can'ttell you like how things end up
ended up, but that was likeputting structures in place to
do things a little bitdifferently.
So that was that was an exampleof uh of one you know, one thing
(22:48):
that comes to mind.
SPEAKER_02 (22:49):
It's interesting the concept of of when you work in
settings like that.
I'd I'd I'm assuming that yourbiggest challenge is change
resistance on the part ofadults, right?
Like we, I was just reading within one of our team study meet uh
sessions here at work, and we'retalking about, we were reading
about the how the amygdala is uhis a novelty detector.
(23:13):
And so, you know, 50,000 yearsago, it was really good about
detecting sounds outside yourcave, so you didn't go out
there, right?
And you you got your spearready, but now it's hey, can I
share some can I share some uhprofessional uh feedback with
you?
And suddenly your amygdala isgoing uh danger, danger.
Um how do you work through thethat inevitability, right?
(23:37):
Because we all have it, I haveit, you have it, we all have
that reaction to change, todisruption, to breaking patterns
that that whether that's apattern that we set or whether
we inherited that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:52):
No, I've heard the same thing too.
Like when you ask everybody likewho thinks we need to make some
changes around here, everybodylike puts their hand up and then
you're like, well, who wants tomake changes themselves, like
personally?
And like nobody wants to sayit's them, you know.
Um I mean, I was reallyfortunate again, like it's to be
in a place with people that arewilling to take some risks and
(24:13):
understand that even if we failat this change, just doing
things the same way is not anoption.
Staying the same way is like theworst possible possible option.
So, like, let's take some risks.
We're gonna learn some thingsalong the way, um, either way.
So, one of the again, going toBurlington was a blessing.
And when I was the principal atBurlington High, we were able to
(24:36):
be one of the first one-to-oneschools.
I think we were the firstone-to-one school in
Massachusetts with iPads.
So, what I decided to do, or wedecided to do, was every
Wednesday, that first year,every Wednesday of the school
year, we had what we calledwalkthrough Wednesday where any
other local school could come.
(24:57):
And we did a little presentationin the morning.
Like, here's where we are.
We haven't figured this all outyet, but like we thought it was
really important for us to startto build a network.
Like, here's a school, livekids, they all have these iPads,
like you can teachers let themwalk through their classes.
Um, but this is happening here,and it's okay.
(25:18):
Like, we're this things aren'tcrazy.
Like, people were overwhelmedwith the idea of like you know,
and now we're havingconversations about banning cell
phones in schools, which isanother one, but yeah, and I
have thoughts on that too.
But um, but anyway, like we weregood, we went one to one with
iPads, and people were like, Howdid you do that?
Like, how did you get everybodyon board?
And I'm like, who said I goteverybody on board?
(25:41):
Because it's never gonna happen,you know.
So, what we tried to do wasprovide opportunities for people
to learn.
Like, yes, this is gonna feeloverwhelming at times.
But Chris Lehman is a principalin in Philadelphia at Science
Leadership Academy, who's one ofthe most phenomenal principals
I've seen.
And um he used to talk aboutlike school is supposed to be
(26:04):
prepar preparation for the realworld.
And like we can't have kids likecome into school and like no
access to like these devices andthen go out into the real world
and they're supposed to figureit out on their own.
So we thought, you know, the thethought at the time was with our
watchful eye, like we can helpthem learn how to use these
(26:26):
things constructively and not bedistracted, and um, they're
gonna be using them for theirlearning, you know, for the rest
of their lives.
So let's let's have theseconversations and let's make it
happen.
And again, we were fortunate toum to do that.
And I think we did a pretty goodjob.
And it was, again, because wehad a great team in place.
SPEAKER_02 (26:46):
So, where do you come down on?
I actually have that on my list.
I'm like, yeah, ask them aboutcell phones.
So I hear, you know, I ask a lotof educators about that, and
California has mandated by Juneof 2026 that every district and
charter uh LEA has a policy oncell phones.
(27:08):
Um, they suggest that you banthem, but they don't mandate it.
I've heard everything frompeople using wander bags already
to lock them up to people going,we're not banning anything.
Where do you stand on that?
SPEAKER_03 (27:20):
I mean, number one is I think it needs to be a
community conversation.
Like, I mean, one mistake wemake is like saying every
school's alike, all kids arealike, every community is alike.
So I think there need to bethoughtful conversations
involved.
Um, where we are like inLexington is the kids, when they
walk into the classroom, theyput it in a like one of those
shoe tree, like a holder, andthey're supposed to leave it
(27:42):
there for the whole class.
Even if they leave to take arestroom break, they're supposed
to leave the phone there.
Um, so that's a work inprogress.
Where I stand is like I thinkthings have changed.
Like when we went one-to-onewith um with iPads in
Burlington, gosh, I don't know,maybe 15 years ago.
I can't like it.
We weren't in the same place.
(28:03):
Like we didn't have such accessto apps.
And not every kid had their owncomputer at home, never mind at
school.
So we just thought we were kindof leveling the playing field by
doing some of this and givingteachers access to online
resources in their classroom.
Like everybody had access andthey're so again, the things are
moving so fast.
I think the pandemic hadsomething to do with this, but I
(28:25):
feel like kids are more isolatedthan ever, even though they have
access to these tools that canconnect them with anybody
anywhere.
And I I think there's a lot ofconversations we need to have um
with one another, especiallywith you know, AI now involved
in the mix.
But I read an article in TheAtlantic, I think it was like
(28:47):
August 4th, about like they didsurveys on kids, and I think the
the group that had surveyed thekids talked, like, you know, why
what we want you to put yourphones away.
Like, can you talk to us aboutthis and like get some answers
from the kids?
And I think what they found wasum kids want independent
(29:08):
opportunities to play with oneanother.
Like some of these things thatyou and I, you probably had
growing up, I know I did, was Icould go out and play in my
neighborhood by myself.
Um, I could go to the park andhave a pickup wiffle ball game
or a pickup baseball game.
And everything is so programmedfor kids nowadays, everything is
so organized, like they don'thave a chance to go out and have
(29:29):
the same, build the same kind ofsocial skills or have the same
social opportunities.
So it's weird, right?
Like parents won't let the kidsgrow up and play in the front
yard alone, but they'll let themgo up into their room on their
phone or their iPad and they canconnect with anybody in the
world.
Like it's kind of a it's astrange situation when you think
about it.
So I know I know there'scommunities that mentioned in
(29:52):
that article where they'retrying to um develop that up
these places and communitieswhere parents can drop kids off,
like drop them off at thePlayground and pick them up in a
couple hours.
So yeah, um I think our kidsneed help from us.
We spend so much time togetherin these spaces, and there's
(30:12):
opportunities in school.
We do like, what is it, 990hours in in Massachusetts with
kids, and I think they're there,but they're not there because of
the phones.
Like they're so tied to thesethings.
And um so I I do think from someof the things I've heard, it's
just a few, and like schoolswhere they tried this.
I I've heard interviews withkids on the local NPR station
(30:34):
saying, like, it was actuallygood.
Like I talked to this kid Inever would have talked to
before, and like they'rebuilding relationships.
And when I think about like, whyare our communities breaking
down?
And like, you know, we're we'reeither this or that, you know,
based on our and it's I thinkit's because we're not having
these conversations.
And like I think one of the mostvaluable things we could do for
(30:56):
our kids is like is bring thisback.
Like, let's, you know, yeah, youdon't think you have anything in
common with that.
So like let's have aconversation, you know.
Um, the way things are goingright now, it's it's a little
scary in the world, like whatwhat direction we're gonna go.
So I think the ability to justto have conversations with each
other is is more important thanever.
(31:17):
And I know I think the phonestake us away from that.
Even adults, like myselfincluded.
SPEAKER_02 (31:21):
Like, I know I've had my moments, you know, where
this was certainly not recently,but like where I was worried
about my responses on Twitter,you know, and yeah, that that's
the interesting thing, too, isthat I know that overwhelmingly,
as a group, at least nationally,teachers are strong advocates,
teacher unions are strongadvocates for restricting and
(31:44):
and or banning cell phones.
Um, I think it's the enforcementpiece is tricky, right?
Because it's the does it turnevery teacher into an
enforcement agent?
Does that become an oppositionalrelationship all over the place?
That's kind of an open question.
How do we as adults behave withour own technology?
(32:04):
Right?
Are we are we only using it forwork?
Like, or are we, you know, likeI don't know, how much Amazon
shopping is going on in anydistrict in any uh on in any one
of the United States, right?
Like so it's a trickyconversation.
SPEAKER_03 (32:21):
It is, yeah.
I don't think there's anyperfect answer, but um I like I
said, I think communities needto have these conversations
because certainly some of theresearch, the stuff we're seeing
about how our kids are doingmentally right now is is not
good.
And um I I think the the phonesplay a huge part in that.
SPEAKER_02 (32:41):
So we talked about the role that writing had in
your in has had in your past.
Um and I learned I learned aboutyou through a a profile in a in
a district administrationeducation influencers list.
Um talk to us about your yourwriting in terms of you know
(33:03):
philosophical and practicalstances in education, right?
And how those are connected toyour teaching.
SPEAKER_03 (33:09):
I think the reason I got into the the writing, um, or
I was looking for an outlet formy writing as a as an
administrator was to to share.
And like again, the idea wasn'tto share to say, look at me,
like we're doing the we're thebest school ever, we're doing
the best work, like you need tosee this.
(33:30):
It was more about like sharingexperiences and getting feedback
from other people and startstarting to build a network.
So I I was really fortunate tobe in these positions.
Like I said, when we wentone-to-one, I had a big social
media network with educatorsback at the time where like that
was kind of a new thing.
(33:52):
I started a blog called the BHSPrincipals blog um when I was
principal at Burlington High andlike blogged routinely, you
know, probably at least everyother day, if not more.
And just it was a time wherepeople would make comments,
reach out, and um it would therewas a huge edu blogger network,
(34:12):
and I just was it was justtiming, really, honestly, and a
willingness to share.
And um, like I just I stillthink it's so important that we
learn from one another.
It's it's still amazing to methat we have these tools to
connect each other and and learneach other, learn from each
other and network, but I stillfeel like we don't share a lot
(34:33):
school to school.
I don't I don't know if that'sconscious or like we're afraid
to share, or we don't want togive away secrets or what it is,
but um I I forget who said it.
There was this quote I heardonce that said the smartest
person in the room is the room,meaning like the more people we
bring together, like the betterthe ideas are gonna be.
(34:55):
Um and so I just was trying totake advantage of tools to like
put out my ideas, and and thenso many times people came back
and I was able to make thembetter because of things that
you know people in that networkwould share with me.
So I guess really big oncollaboration, like in schools,
like you can't do this work byyourself, you can't be like,
(35:19):
don't come into education or tryto be an educational leader
because you want to be asuperstar.
Like it's really about serving,you know, and and trying to
leave it better than you foundit.
And to do that, like you can'tmake suppositions about what's
best for a community.
Like you need to buildconnections in that community,
and you need to make people needto come up with these solutions
(35:40):
together if they're really gonnahave an impact.
SPEAKER_01 (35:43):
Now, did I see that you're now you've switched to
Substack?
SPEAKER_03 (35:47):
Yeah, I I haven't been writing as much recently.
Um so um, yeah, I I had awebsite and then Substack came
along, so I just play aroundwith that and hoping to get back
to um now that we started schoolthis week, to get back to doing
a little bit more of that.
Um, I see some of the peoplethat I used to um make comments
(36:10):
on their blogs on Substack andhoping to start to rebuild some
of those networks.
Um yeah, so I am using Substackright now.
I think it's a pretty easyresource to use.
And um, one of the things I doon the side too is I work for
this group called Ideas inMassachusetts, which um we do a
(36:31):
lot of uh work with schools andeducators around diversity,
equity, and inclusion, um, andand run some anti-racism
classes.
And and so um, it's a reallygreat model where you have a
white educator with a teacher ofcolor, and we we co-teach um
(36:52):
these sessions, and so that'ssomething I've been involved in.
So that prompted me to do like alot of my writing based on you
know issues that I was seeingaround inequity and anti-racism
in schools, and um so just aplace to put down my thoughts
and again share it with familyand my kids, like just to make
(37:12):
sure we're having theseconversations about things that
are happening right now.
SPEAKER_02 (37:17):
And and I'd imagine that it's gotten more
complicated or more there's moreattention put on it in the last
six or seven months, right?
Given given nationally the waythat that currents are have been
flowing related to you know, DEIis a capital DEI or a small DEI,
(37:38):
and and and like that wholething, has that has that
affected your work at all?
SPEAKER_03 (37:44):
I think it's impacting everybody's work to
some degree because that workisn't done on behalf of
Lexington Public Schools.
But right, I think a lot ofpeople are nervous about some of
the stuff coming out of the thecurrent administration and being
careful how they're wordingthings and reframing and right
rightfully so if grant money isgoing to be tied to things.
(38:05):
But I just think like at the endof the day, like if you and I
are having a conversation as twoadults that know a little bit
about this country, is tounderstand like this is pushback
against progress, where youknow, we have equity in our in
our schools, and um and and wecan cite like where these things
(38:27):
have happened before, you know,during during the civil rights
movement when we were trying to,you know, desegregate our
schools, like what did some ofthe where some of the southern
states did was they shut downtheir public schools and all the
kids went to private schools andfunds got redistributed.
And so I just I just think umit's important to have these
(38:50):
conversations.
One of our one of the things,the reasons I think that we're
in the position we're in as acountry is um we don't don't
study our histories, probablydon't see that these things
aren't these aren't new thingsthat are happening, but it's not
typical that in 50 states thatthat we teach these things
explicitly.
SPEAKER_02 (39:10):
So try to go back to that young man on the on the oh
man, what do you guys call it inthe Boston area?
Is that the the public?
What's the public transit there?
The MBTA or the T.
Yeah.
Yeah, the T.
So you're you're riding homeafter the after after been in
(39:30):
the locker room, and I'm kind ofglad you weren't in the Red Sox
uh locker room because I'm a I'ma Yankees Padres fan.
So we can take it.
That's good.
I'm okay.
Okay.
Um but uh so what advice doesyour current self give that
young man who then goes intofinds this love for coaching and
(39:52):
is like, and then a love forsubstitute teaching, which said
no one ever, right?
Like so, like what advice wouldyou give that that guy then that
that you think would make theirpath either easier or more
productive or more fruitful?
Because you've learned a lot oflessons, and I'm sure not all
(40:13):
easy ones.
SPEAKER_03 (40:14):
Yeah.
I mean, part of me, and thisseems like a cop-out, but I have
two answers.
Um, part of me is like thejourney has been the journey,
and I've kind of like learned somuch at each stop, like even
where things don't always endwell, but that's reality too.
Like, but to be reflective on myown part and why things don't
(40:39):
always go well.
So I I think I mean part of itis about like don't be
defensive, um like take sometime to like think before
responding.
But another part of me mightsay, like, don't be afraid to
make a move earlier.
Um I think to know like thatbeing really comfortable isn't
(41:01):
always a good thing.
So I think you know, again, Ihave no regrets, but maybe I
shouldn't have stayed at theschool I grew up in so for so
long.
But again, I loved every minuteof it.
Um maybe not stay in Burlingtonso long.
Um but again when I was there,like, you know, it wasn't like I
(41:22):
was visible.
So yeah, I just I just think thenumber one thing as I get older
and I still tell myself is likejust don't react when you feel
that the blood boiling.
Um don't react.
Sit in that discomfort.
And this was one of the thingswe talked about too when we're
we're dealing with issues aroundrace.
(41:43):
Um, especially like if I knowthat I I made a mistake in
regards to, you know, one of mybiases coming out, which one of
my implicit biases showingitself and learning a little bit
more about myself, was just likesit in the discomfort and and
and learn from it.
That's that's the one thing Iguess uh the advice I would
give.
SPEAKER_02 (42:04):
Yeah, it's interesting to as a sports fan,
you know, to reflect on even onJackie Robinson, right?
He was obviously a star athlete,but but he wasn't the only
African-American star athlete,right?
And so the powers that be thatkind of selected him for that
path realized that theattributes that he had of
(42:24):
self-control and and just reallyowning his emotions um were as
important as the athletic piece.
SPEAKER_00 (42:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (42:35):
And yeah, you know, he him being in situations that
you and I will never know,right?
SPEAKER_03 (42:40):
Like, yeah, yeah.
And yeah, like that's the thing.
Like, even like I remembersomebody saying once, and like,
this is me again as a white guybeing oblivious, is like you
know Jackie Robinson was thefirst major league baseball
player, we all know that.
But he wasn't the first one thatwas good enough.
There were there were so youknow, I mean um yeah, so it's
(43:04):
yeah, just reframing thingssometimes, like you know, the
way the way you know you forgotabout things once.
Like the fact that you can learnsomething every day in school,
like to change it back to thatis like that's why I love the
job.
Like you're never gonna gothrough probably a week.
Um, that might be even too longof a time frame, but get to the
(43:25):
end of a period in in your jobin school and be like, I didn't
learn something this week.
You know, it's never gonnahappen.
Like, I keep joking, like, oh,coming back for another year,
hoping I can get it right thisyear.
And uh, you know, it's notthere's never gonna be a year
where you get it all right.
And that's I think one of thethings that I love about it too.
SPEAKER_02 (43:44):
Well what's next for you?
Because I you made a commentabout, you know, you have a
certain number of, you know, Ithink you and I are probably on
the back nine.
Yeah.
Uh I think I'm ahead of you.
Uh so but uh but um but youknow, thinking about what's
next.
Um, and you talked about how thesystem in Massachusetts is kind
(44:05):
of designed.
I'm assuming at a certain level,you kind of flatline on your in
your pension contributions andet cetera.
We have the same thing inCalifornia.
I think that's a reallyshort-sighted design that they
have actually for the pensionbecause they they live they the
system loses a lot of valuableinstitutional knowledge.
Um, you know, a 62-year-oldtoday is not a 62-year-old of 50
(44:29):
years ago, but that's adifferent conversation.
What's next for you?
SPEAKER_03 (44:33):
Yeah, it's a good, it's a really good question.
Like I said to my wife, and I'vesaid this in school, so like I
can hit that ceiling in two moreyears, like this year and one
more.
And it's like it's way too soon.
I love where I'm at right now.
Um, if there's a way to staylonger, and I don't want it to
(44:54):
be all about finances either.
That seems right really, youknow.
But yeah, I have kids withcollege debt, and I'm like, so I
don't know, like if I'm notgonna leave if I don't have a
plan, but I said I have twoyears to start to, you know,
come up with some ideas.
Um I have a good friend of mine,Cale Burke.
Um, he's written a couple books,um, most recently, like one
(45:18):
called Words on the Wall, um,which is a really great book
about schools.
And like we all have thesemission statements that we put
up on the walls and and goalsand things, but like I don't
think we have enoughconversations around like what
does that look like in action?
Um like how do we show evidencethat we're really living up to
(45:38):
these missions or or corevalues?
Like, what does that look likeif a teacher's doing it, if a
student's doing it?
Like, we don't we just set thesegreat documents and then like
oh, we're done.
SPEAKER_02 (45:49):
Like life, like lifelong learner.
SPEAKER_03 (45:51):
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
So he he goes around, he worksaround the globe, like um
working with schools on makingthis explicit, making it
something they can assessthemselves on and um really
doing neat things.
So, like I've talked to himabout like, is there a place in
that world?
Because I love thoseconversations when I I um won
(46:14):
this award when I was uhprincipal, I think it might have
been around 2012, from an ASSPcalled the Digital Principal of
the Year Award.
And um, so I got to go out andum you know speak a little bit
at different conferences and atin different states around the
country.
I get to go to a conference inEngland and speak.
And um, I like, I mean, I don'tI don't need to speak in front
(46:37):
of crowds, but I'd like to, it'sfine.
But that's I'd rather if I couldif you could build connections
with school communities and andhelp support people doing good
work, like I think that thatwould be a great option.
Um I mean I would do an interimprincipal job, but again, that's
not the really the work I wantto do where you get to like I
(47:00):
want I'd love to do some moreongoing work, like not just like
flyby stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (47:05):
Well, you're you're very humble about your about
your achievements and and um youknow I think the the the online
presence piece and your yourhonest blogging and writing
about about equity issues, uhfor me I admire that because as
a as a a fellow white guy, umit's a little tricky when you're
(47:31):
a white guy blogging aboutequity issues.
Either either you're seen aspandering or you're seen as uh
that's easy for you to saybecause you're either part of
the problem or you have no ideawhat the hell you're talking
about, right?
Um and so I I I see I still seea lot of writing about schools,
(47:51):
but there's not a lot of honestum perspectives that really go
into uncomfortable topics.
So I've appreciated that andsome of the things I've found
that you've written.
SPEAKER_03 (48:01):
Yeah.
I know you started the um theinterview today around like me
giving a little bit of my umidentity, who I am.
(48:23):
And I think one of the mostimportant things like that we
can do as educators, especiallyum, you know, white educators
working in schools where um wehave colleagues of color and
students of color, is understandour identity and realize like
how that impacts the spaces weshow up in.
(48:45):
Um, I think it's a huge, it's ahugely important question
because I remember um the firsttime I was asked, like, how did
my race influence you know mylife?
And I was like, what?
What do you mean?
And then I'm like, oh, snap,like that's a problem.
So I just I think it's a greatquestion to start with like how
does your identity impact likehow you show up in your
(49:07):
classroom?
Again, if people don't, youdon't nobody it's an answer
that's always at work.
That's what I love about it.
It's like it's a work inprogress.
Like, I'm never gonna have theoh, that's the A plus answer.
Like, that's not the point.
The point is to like continue tobe reflective.
Like, you know, for me, not togo off on a tangent.
(49:29):
For me, it's like I have so manyyears of being oblivious to the
things that were right in frontof me.
Like, I'm never gonna get whereI'd like to see myself, you
know, but I'm gonna, you know,try and when I screw it up, I'm
gonna take responsibility andkeep moving forward because it's
too important not to.
SPEAKER_02 (49:48):
Have your own kids gone to school in similar
schools to where the ones you'veled?
SPEAKER_03 (49:54):
Um yeah, I mean, my kids went to school in southern
New Hampshire at a pretty large,um, predominantly white high
school.
So um, so yeah, kind of moresimilar to what I attended.
Um, but you know, we have we dohave a lot of conversations
around the dinner table, andunfortunately, like despite
despite, you know, where they'regrowing up, they uh are starting
(50:19):
to peel some blinders off.
So that's great.
SPEAKER_02 (50:22):
Yeah, it's it's always an interesting thing to
reflect back as we get in middleage or beyond and think about
the way we were raised, and thenthe way our own kids are being
raised and what theirexperiences have been like.
And um I always tell mydaughter, I have a 23-year-old
daughter, and I just tell her,like, you know, I don't, I
(50:44):
certainly don't have all theanswers, but let me tell you
about a few mistakes that Imade.
And the sooner you can learnabout this thing and get out
ahead of it, then it's gonnasave you some suffering, and
maybe you can the world will getincrementally better through
that process.
SPEAKER_03 (51:00):
A first-year teacher um as a daughter, she's just
started her first.
So that's yeah, so we have a lotof conversations, unfortunate.
And she went through a master'sprogram at BU and she was
reading some great stuff.
She read um one of Dr.
Bettina Love's books, who is umI would highly recommend her
(51:20):
work if nobody's seen it.
Um Punished for Dreaming is oneof her titles.
I'm trying to remember the otherones, but um, she's just
phenomenal.
If you ever want to see a a goodclip about like what it looks
like to be a um she doesn't callit an ally, she calls it a
co-conspirator.
If you ever want to see a goodclip on like what it means to be
(51:43):
a white person who's aco-conspirator and creating a
better place for all of us, umjust look up um Bettina Love
Ally versus Co-Conspirator.
It's a it's a great little clipum from uh from the P2B panel
she was on.
Um probably like less than fiveminutes, but just awesome
policy.
SPEAKER_02 (52:05):
That's great.
Thank you for thank you forthat.
Um I you've been very generouswith your time, and I I want to
honor that.
Is there anything that I haven'tcovered?
I have one more question foryou, but is there anything that
I haven't covered that's beenknocking around that you're
like, yeah, I'd like to mentionthis as this as the new school
year kicks off for you?
SPEAKER_03 (52:24):
I you know, I mentioned briefly like my friend
Kale's book, and um I likelooked at our cup, we have some
great core values in LexingtonPublic Schools, and um two of
them that I'm really fond ofthat I think apply to like some
of the work I do with students,and I put them up outside my
office yesterday where um we allbelong and you are enough.
(52:48):
And um I really want to haveconversations with students this
year um about what does thatlook like to them when when
students uphold that core valueof we all belong.
Like what does it look like?
It's not one thing, it's a lotof it.
So just if I could get if Icould hear students like tell me
what they think it looks like,that would be really powerful, I
(53:10):
think.
So that's that's one of thethings I'm hoping to do this
year.
And so that's all I would say islike to to people like you know,
find find like a goal or a focalpoint for your year and and try
to stay with it.
It's not easy because we got youknow, we always get caught up in
the minutia of the day-to-day,and all those aspirations we
(53:32):
have fall back because the busywork.
But try to find some time foryourself to like stay on that
thing that like fills yourbucket.
SPEAKER_02 (53:41):
So the last question is uh hypothetical.
So let's say you have theopportunity to design a
billboard on the side of thefreeway.
Yep.
Uh uh, or the the highway, Ican't remember what it's called
in Massachusetts.
I don't have to call it ahighway, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Um what does your billboard sayabout about what you believe in?
SPEAKER_03 (54:07):
Yeah, I mean, I I do like not to make it like too
simple, but I mean I do lovethat core value is like we all
belong, you know, we all belong.
And if people like don't feelthat way, like I I want to in I
want to try to engage, or ifthey can't engage, like I don't
(54:27):
I don't really want to, I'm notgonna give them any energy, you
know, because um I'm I'm justconcerned about like the
dehumanization that happens whenwe when we don't feel that way.
Like if it's a group, if it's areligious belief, it's a race
that you feel like people don'tbelong, um and you're gonna
(54:47):
start to use dehumanizinglanguage, it's a it's a deal
breaker for me.
So I I would that's what I wouldsay.
Like we all belong, like andhave you know have some pictures
of you know diverse groups ofpeople together, but it's a
tough time.
It's it's a pretty romanticvision.
Uh it's unfortunate that we'rewe are where we are right now.
(55:08):
So um yeah, I I I just keep itsimple, I guess.
That's all I can do.
SPEAKER_02 (55:17):
Thanks for joining us on the Hangout Podcast.
You can send us an email atpodcastinfo at proton.me.
Many thanks to my daughter Mayafor editing this episode.
I'd also like to underline thatthis podcast is entirely
separate from my day job.
And as such, all opinionsexpressed herein are mine and
(55:38):
mine alone.
Thanks for coming on in andhanging out.
Welcome to the Hangout Podcast.
I'm your host, David Sheretta.
Come on in and hang out.
In this episode, I wasprivileged to have a
conversation with PatrickLarkin.
Patrick Larkin is a veteranschool administrator.
Before being a school leader invarious capacities, which he's
(00:26):
done for nearly 30 years, he wasalso a teacher.
Before that, he was a coach anda substitute teacher, and before
that, a sports writer.
So Patrick and I cover a lot ofground in this conversation.
He talked about his use oftechnology, blogging,
(00:46):
podcasting, et cetera, inexpressing his views, in leading
within a community.
Patrick's approach is humble,thoughtful, nuanced, and
refreshing.
I hope you enjoy thisconversation as much as I did.
Welcome, Patrick.
Thank you for joining us thisafternoon for a conversation.
(01:10):
Thanks for having me.
I thought we could start wherewe start with all of these
conversations, which is withyour origin story, where you
come from and how that informswho you are today, the work you
do, the beliefs you hold.
SPEAKER_03 (01:26):
Yeah, no, I think that's important.
Um so uh I grew up in centralMassachusetts in um a town
called Menden, uh small townsuburb of uh Boston.
And uh my mother was a schoolteacher, so education became you
know something that was reallyin my world from from an early
(01:49):
days.
And then um remember going toschool with her, you know, as a
as a little kid and hanging outin her classroom.
And um, it was always a funplace to be.
School was always a good placefor me.
And then uh when I was inseventh grade, I lost my dad to
suicide, and um school becameeven more important for me
(02:09):
because it filled some voids forme, like time, constructive
time, wasn't rushing home allthe time, and there were a lot
of you know, male teachers thatkind of filled some voids for
me, and you know, and I was justvery fortunate to be in a place
where a small school whereeverybody knew who I was, and
I'm sure I didn't realize it atthe time, but I know people paid
(02:32):
extra attention because you knowthey were worried, and people
know you know my mom was ateacher, not in the same place,
and so I feel fortunate, andthat definitely impacted, I
think, me um landing ineducation.
I I went to uh uh a small schoolin Worcester Mass called
Assumption College from there,now Assumption University.
(02:53):
And uh, they didn't have asecondary ed program at the
time, and so I ended up dabblingin elementary education.
Um, but as a 19-year-old goingto an elementary school and
having um all the little kidssurrounding me, I was a little
over my head at that point.
(03:13):
Like they were very clingy, andI just as a 19-year-old didn't
have a lot of experience workingwith a lot of young kids, had
experience coaching older kids.
So um I ended up kind of pullingback a little bit.
I ended up being a sports writeruh for a little while for a
local paper out of college.
And then one of those mentors Imentioned from my high school
days, my high school baseballcoach called me and he's like,
(03:36):
hey, uh, we need a baseballcoach over here at another local
school uh to coach the freshmanteam.
I think you'd be great.
So I started coaching thefreshman baseball team.
And from there, um, I'm like, Ilove doing this.
I need to find a way to be inschools more often.
And I started as a substituteteacher, which I loved.
And I think if you love being asubstitute teacher, it can be a
(03:58):
challenging job because you'rein a different room every day,
never really know what you'regetting, and it's not your
classroom.
I'm like, I knew like if I couldgo back and get the final few
classes I need to become a highschool teacher, um, have my own
classroom, maybe do somecoaching.
I'm like, this this is gonna bea pretty good deal for me.
And so that's what I did.
SPEAKER_02 (04:20):
So it's interesting, you know.
We thank you for thank you forthat.
And and it's when you underlineyou underline the fact that this
this role of the school as ananchor in kids' lives.
Um, I think so often that canget lost in just the daily uh
(04:42):
stressors of education, right?
Just all the demands on oneducators and and the the
requirements and the standardsand everything else.
But it sounds like your life asa has been just a just a real
example of that anchoringstabilizing force when when your
family goes through tragedy.
SPEAKER_03 (05:01):
Yeah, um, definitely.
Like the school for a lot of thekids, um I think I was a pretty
good student, and um, you know,I don't think a lot of the
trauma that may have been in thebackground there necessarily
came out in in classroomsettings or anywhere, but I know
(05:23):
I hope it makes me more attuned,like you know, when kids are
coming to school and things arehappening, like there's a
behavioral issue, everybody willsay behavior is uh, you know,
kids are telling you theirfeelings, there's something
going on, and um, just to not totake things personally and to
like find out their story, likeget to know the kids.
(05:43):
And um just kids are goingthrough a lot, and um so I I do
I do hope, I like to think thatmy background story helps me
have a little more empathy andand pry a little and try to get
to know students, and certainlyunfortunately, I've been
involved like in the years, likehaving um families lose kids the
(06:05):
same way that my dad, we lost mydad, and having kids lose
parents, and like certainlythose families you feel an
instant bond to um just becauseit's kind of a a lonely
existence.
But yeah, I I do like to thinkit makes me more sensitive, but
I'm sure there's times where Ifall short of that too, like we
all do.
SPEAKER_02 (06:26):
So you had a little bit of a detour, it sounds like
in into in uh as a sportswriter.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think.
Yeah, how did how talk aboutthat a little bit?
Because that's I'm alwaysintrigued by by those things.
Yeah, I come from a family ofeducators, and I tried my
damnedest to get out of being aneducator for a little bit.
So Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (06:46):
So at Assumption, um, I started out as a social
studies major, and there wasthis one social studies class
where there were no tests, butyou had to write papers, was
like your all your assessmentswere papers.
And then after my freshman yearwas done, that was one of the
classes, I looked at my mygrades, and I'm like, I'm doing
(07:06):
way better in my Englishclasses.
Not that I was doing poorly inmy um in my social studies
class, but my my English gradeswere really strong.
And I'm like, I just changed mymajor, and then when I dropped
the um the double major, I wentto a minor in education.
I'm like, well, what can I dohere?
And I was, I think another thingthat like losing my dad, my
(07:27):
brother and I were sports nuts,like I kind of lost myself in
sports, and um it probablyplayed a a really significant
role for me.
Like, and um then I got intosports writing, which I liked,
it was cool.
I got to be in the Celticslocker room, I got to be in the
Patriots locker room, I got tobe in the Bruins locker room.
Um not the Red Sox because theeditor of the paper covered the
(07:50):
Red Sox and that was his deal.
But um, but anyway, when you'redoing it for a job day to day,
it's like, oh, like it's likeone of those things where don't
let your hobby be your job orsomething.
Um kind of rang true.
I'm like, and I looked aroundthe the newsroom like one night
because it was in the days wherewe have to go into the office
(08:11):
and do our work, or maybe youcould put put up old-fashioned
modem over your phone and sendthe article in, but it was just
easier to be in the office.
So I'm looking around like atlike 1 a.m., taking the train
back from Boston after a Bruinsgame, and I'm like, when I'm 35,
do I want to be here?
Or in my head, I'm like, whatwould be like a step up?
(08:32):
I'm like, maybe I could writefor the Boston Globe someday.
That was like our big localsports paper or phenomenal Peter
Gammons and Dan Shaughnessy andWill McDonald, like these crazy
good, like well-known nationallyum writers.
And I'm like, you know what?
Like, even at 35, if I could beat the globe, I'm not saying I
could have ever gotten there.
I'm like, I'm like, I don'tthink that's the pathway I want
(08:54):
to take.
So shortly thereafter, the callcame in about the coaching
opportunity.
And as soon as I startedcoaching, I'm like, got to get
more in the school day to day.
And so I started subbing at myold high school.
And again, it was funny.
The high school that I went to,I became a sub, got a permanent
teaching job.
Then a few years down the road,I became an assistant principal
(09:16):
in the school I went to, whichwas kind of uh interesting
because I was, you know, theevaluator for some of the
teachers I had when I was a highschool student.
So it was uh it was a really uhinteresting experience, but all
it was all good.
SPEAKER_02 (09:30):
So what is your role right now?
Because I know you've hadclassroom, admin, etc.
SPEAKER_03 (09:36):
Yeah, I did the math this week and um it's year 29 in
school administration for me.
Um so I started as an assistantprincipal at Nipmuck Regional
High School.
That's the school I attended asa student.
I was there for seven years.
Um, and then I remember somebodycoming into the office and like,
what are you still doing here?
It's like, meaning I should begoing for a principal's job
(09:58):
somewhere.
I'm like, yeah, maybe it's time.
So I ended up becoming a um aprincipal at a much larger
school, Peabody High School andPeabody Mass.
Um, it was a great experiencefor me.
Um, I was there for three years.
Um, there was a lot of turmoilpolitically.
I think I had um foursuperintendents in my three
(10:18):
years as a principal.
And um I'm like, you know, as mycontract was coming to an end, I
did get the offer to like extendit.
But I was looking around and Ihad an opportunity to go down
the road to this place calledBurlington Mass.
Um, and I uh was reallyfortunate to land there.
I was principal there for fiveyears, and then I did um I think
(10:40):
it was 11 years in in centraloffice.
Um, and then, you know, thingshappen.
It's time to move on.
So after 16 years there, I hadsome time to think about, you
know, I probably have five yearsleft in that vicinity to as, you
know, because of the way theretirement system works here.
I'm not looking forward to umnot working in public schools in
(11:02):
Massachusetts.
I've loved every minute of it.
But um I had a chance to thinkabout like what was my favorite
position in um it was when I wasan assistant principal, just
because you're so connected tothe kids and like you said,
getting to know their storiesand um trying to help students
that are struggling and be in asupport.
(11:23):
And I I really love that role.
And so I had the chance to go toLexington High uh and I'm in my
third year, and I love themodel.
We have uh 2,400 kids, and wehave five deans of students, and
I'm one of five deans, and weeach run our own student support
team.
So we have our own counselors wework with, social worker, nurse.
(11:45):
Um, and I really love the model,how we're able to like get
together as a group of educatorsand see what kids need our
support and try to put supportsin place.
And um, again, I I've beenblessed honestly.
Like, I feel like every stepalong the way has been the right
step.
Um, so I really have nocomplaints.
I really feel blessed about um,you know, where education is has
(12:09):
has brought me from point A topoint B to the next spot.
SPEAKER_02 (12:13):
In in in such a hierarchical profession, right,
like ours, even if we pretendlike it's not, we know it is.
There's lines that you cross,and then you're on the other
side, or some people say you'reon the dark side, depending,
right?
Yeah.
Um how do you manage that thatuh transition that some people
(12:35):
would call a step down?
Uh, you obviously didn't see itthat way because in your sounds
like your whole journey's been astep up in your experience with
kids, but you moved from acentral office to, you know,
eventually now you're in ayou're in a uh a dean role and
and and loving it.
How did you kind of manage thatand maybe talk a little bit
about how those peerinteractions, colleague
(12:56):
interactions went too?
SPEAKER_03 (12:58):
Yeah, um, no, that's a that's a great point.
It is it is a lot different.
You don't understand untilyou're there um in those
positions that that it's alittle different.
Um my first assistant assistantprincipal's job, I do think I
was fortunate because it was inthis place I grew up in, and um
(13:18):
I think my relationships werestrong with people, so there was
there was never really any bigproblem.
Um obviously it's you know, youcome across people that are
like, you know, do I need aunion rep in this conversation?
Or um I honestly think it's allabout relationships.
Um I think the higher you go up,like you're you know, from
(13:42):
assistant principal toprincipal, you're dealing more
with adult issues at that point.
You're dealing with maybe a fewstaff issues, but a lot of
parents that have concerns orwant certain things for their
kids, and then another step upat um assistant superintendent,
it's even more of that.
It's more of more disconnectedfrom kids, uh dealing with, you
(14:03):
know, union representation aboutthings in schools, and again,
just like people that aren'thappy with what the principal
said and are now coming tocentral office.
And then I'd never reallyaspired to be a superintendent.
I I feel like I was fortunate.
I worked in a central officewhere I had a pretty good voice
(14:24):
in decisions when it, you know,when the superintendent was, you
know, we he let me work closelywith him, and so I feel like I
had a lot of voice and decisionsthat were made.
And yeah, I mean I don't I don'tsee it as ego.
It's more like you I don't feelyou have the same impact on kids
um in a in that position.
(14:45):
That's my feeling.
And may there's certainlydistrict and building leaders
that are able to do things intheir buildings that maybe they
make big policy changes or areable to change practices in
their building or district, andit impacts kids in a positive
way.
Um that wasn't my experience umin that those leadership roles I
(15:07):
felt at some point, and maybethis was a me problem.
I became just part of thesystem.
Like maybe there's some comfortthat comes in, and like I felt
like I could sit, you know, notsit back and do nothing, but you
could just do business the waybusiness has been done and and
go through your career, or I andI and I felt like there were
(15:29):
changes to be made and and thechanges may not have been
happening, so I'm like, wherecan I have an impact?
And I'm like, let's go work withindividual kids.
And yeah, not every situationwill be a success, but I know at
the end of the week, end of thesemester, end of the year, I'll
be able to at least put my handson, you know, a couple of
(15:49):
decisions and say, like, yeah, Ithink I helped with a positive
outcome there.
And I think I don't know, thehigher I went up, I don't think
that I felt the same way aboutthat, you know, and didn't have
those same relationships.
Like that's in the classroomwhere you work with a kid
one-on-one and you're like, oh,we made a great connection.
I helped this student seesomething in themselves.
(16:13):
Um, and I feel like, you know, Ipushed this thing forward
positively.
And at the end of the day or theend of the year, sometimes with
administration, like um, likewith the higher administration
positions, I didn't always feelthat way.
And again, that certainly issomething I need to think about.
Maybe I was over my head inthese positions, I don't know,
(16:33):
but it just it felt it felt theright thing to do to go back and
work with kids.
And so um, I have one second ofit.
I was 100% right, like in what Iremembered about being in that
role.
SPEAKER_02 (16:47):
What what are your biggest challenges?
Uh it sounds like what yourelish about your role is that
you have the opportunity to workreally closely with, I'm
assuming like 600 kids or so,right?
It sounds like approximately,which is a a good, a good, a
good number to be able to learnlearn about their lives and
(17:08):
their stories.
What kind of challenges are youfacing and are they different
from the challenges that youfaced at the beginning of your
career career?
Because you've been fortunate tobe able to span you know two and
a half decades in theprofession.
SPEAKER_03 (17:23):
This first answer, and if we go up a follow-up,
maybe I'll be specific aboutLexington, but I want to be
clear like I'm not necessarilytalking about uh where I am
right now in this answer.
Um but I think again, one of thethings I became disenchanted
with, and um this answer kind ofplays into my privilege and my
(17:43):
background and growing up inupper middle class,
predominantly white community,that I wasn't aware of um
inequities that existed, youknow, in because I grew up in a
place where there wasn't muchdifference.
Like everybody was in this whitesuburb, and that I and it was
great.
This isn't I'm not sayinganything bad about that place
that I grew up.
(18:04):
I I had a great upbringing.
But um as I got older and got togo to like more diverse
settings, starting with Peavy,Burlington, Lexington, like you
start to realize the inequitiesin the system and not
everybody's coming in with thesame privileges.
And you know, when kids aren'tdoing as well, like are we are
(18:26):
we making sure that there'sequitable opportunities,
equitable access?
So I think that is like still abig challenge to make sure like
we're looking at our policiesand our practices to make sure
that you know, whatever thingsare getting in the way of kids
um being successful, like it'snot something that we have in
(18:46):
place that we've just becomeblind to.
And I I think again, all ofthese inequities that I think we
come across or I've come across,they're not things that we're
consciously set up.
Um they're all set up withpositive intent, but we can see
clearly sometimes when we startto look at data that there's
disproportionality um in, youknow, whether it's special ed
(19:09):
students, um, black and brownstudents, lower income students
aren't doing as well.
And if our policy or ourpractice plays a part in that, I
think we need to be willing totake a look at that and look in
the mirror.
And I think sometimes it's notthat we're not willing to do
that, it's just that we'reoverwhelmed with like we don't
(19:30):
we don't know how to fix this.
We've been doing this for solong that we just tend to ride
out these bad practices orpolicies uh for too long.
So I think that's like a bigchallenge that um we, you know,
have a lot of conversationsabout um in my last three
districts.
SPEAKER_02 (19:48):
It's it's interesting this concept of
policy, right?
Like there's one way to look atpolicy is well, that's the
policy, and so we need to followit.
Yep.
And then I remember a professorof mine in a doctoral program, I
think I probably made a commentlike that in one of our
discussions, and he said, Yourealize that policies are made
(20:08):
by people and um groups ofpeople, and they can be changed
by people.
Um and so sometimes it's thatthat also the beginner's mindset
of when you switch to adifferent setting to be able to
look at things in with fresheyes.
Um I I just interviewed asuperintendent in New York who I
(20:33):
think he's been 19 years in thatdistrict and 17 years as
superintendent.
And I asked him about like hisblind spots, and he goes, Well,
you know, one of them is I'vejust been here a really long
time.
And so it's like in a way, it'slike the toaster at home that
the handle's kind of loose onit.
You just found a way to workaround it because you're too
(20:53):
busy to buy a new toaster.
And but if someone comes comesin for the first time in your
house, they're like, What thewhat the hell are you doing?
Just get a new toaster.
Oh, yeah, you're right.
And it's like looking at that.
Have you had was your experiencein other settings?
Because you've moved around,right?
So were you able to kind ofbring that to your current role
and like from an equitystandpoint go, ah, you know
(21:16):
what?
Can we look at this?
Can we look at that?
Do you have any concreteexamples of that?
SPEAKER_03 (21:20):
First of all, like I don't feel like one person can
make these changes.
Right.
Um, so the first step is findingsome colleagues that are also of
a like mind that are like, yeah,we need to change some things.
So in PBD, um, one of the thingswas I think we were a school of
about 1600 when I got there, ifI remember correctly, it's been
(21:41):
a while.
And um there was a lot ofproblems with freshman failure.
Um just some systems in placewhere freshmen weren't doing
well out of the gate.
And obviously, when freshmendon't do well um out of the
gate, like the the data's prettybad if they're if they're not
getting enough credits to passtheir freshman year, um their
(22:04):
success rate for finishing highschool drastically drops.
So we were fortunate to get afederal grant called the Smaller
Learning Communities Grant,which I don't think is around
anymore.
But we're able to kind of breakdown the high school or at least
the front for the freshmen intomore I hate to say it because
it's not the same, but kind of ateam approach like you'd see in
the middle school, where thekids would have like the same
(22:26):
core group of teachers, um andand put this team in place.
And again, that was when I kindof we got the grant, I think I
saw it for a year, so I can'ttell you like how things end up
ended up, but that was likeputting structures in place to
do things a little bitdifferently.
So that was that was an exampleof uh of one you know, one thing
(22:48):
that comes to mind.
SPEAKER_02 (22:49):
It's interesting the concept of of when you work in
settings like that.
I'd I'd I'm assuming that yourbiggest challenge is change
resistance on the part ofadults, right?
Like we, I was just reading within one of our team study meet uh
sessions here at work, and we'retalking about, we were reading
about the how the amygdala is uhis a novelty detector.
(23:13):
And so, you know, 50,000 yearsago, it was really good about
detecting sounds outside yourcave, so you didn't go out
there, right?
And you you got your spearready, but now it's hey, can I
share some can I share some uhprofessional uh feedback with
you?
And suddenly your amygdala isgoing uh danger, danger.
Um how do you work through thethat inevitability, right?
(23:37):
Because we all have it, I haveit, you have it, we all have
that reaction to change, todisruption, to breaking patterns
that that whether that's apattern that we set or whether
we inherited that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:52):
No, I've heard the same thing too.
Like when you ask everybody likewho thinks we need to make some
changes around here, everybodylike puts their hand up and then
you're like, well, who wants tomake changes themselves, like
personally?
And like nobody wants to sayit's them, you know.
Um I mean, I was reallyfortunate again, like it's to be
in a place with people that arewilling to take some risks and
(24:13):
understand that even if we failat this change, just doing
things the same way is not anoption.
Staying the same way is like theworst possible possible option.
So, like, let's take some risks.
We're gonna learn some thingsalong the way, um, either way.
So, one of the again, going toBurlington was a blessing.
And when I was the principal atBurlington High, we were able to
(24:36):
be one of the first one-to-oneschools.
I think we were the firstone-to-one school in
Massachusetts with iPads.
So, what I decided to do, or wedecided to do, was every
Wednesday, that first year,every Wednesday of the school
year, we had what we calledwalkthrough Wednesday where any
other local school could come.
(24:57):
And we did a little presentationin the morning.
Like, here's where we are.
We haven't figured this all outyet, but like we thought it was
really important for us to startto build a network.
Like, here's a school, livekids, they all have these iPads,
like you can teachers let themwalk through their classes.
Um, but this is happening here,and it's okay.
(25:18):
Like, we're this things aren'tcrazy.
Like, people were overwhelmedwith the idea of like you know,
and now we're havingconversations about banning cell
phones in schools, which isanother one, but yeah, and I
have thoughts on that too.
But um, but anyway, like we weregood, we went one to one with
iPads, and people were like, Howdid you do that?
Like, how did you get everybodyon board?
And I'm like, who said I goteverybody on board?
(25:41):
Because it's never gonna happen,you know.
So, what we tried to do wasprovide opportunities for people
to learn.
Like, yes, this is gonna feeloverwhelming at times.
But Chris Lehman is a principalin in Philadelphia at Science
Leadership Academy, who's one ofthe most phenomenal principals
I've seen.
And um he used to talk aboutlike school is supposed to be
(26:04):
prepar preparation for the realworld.
And like we can't have kids likecome into school and like no
access to like these devices andthen go out into the real world
and they're supposed to figureit out on their own.
So we thought, you know, the thethought at the time was with our
watchful eye, like we can helpthem learn how to use these
(26:26):
things constructively and not bedistracted, and um, they're
gonna be using them for theirlearning, you know, for the rest
of their lives.
So let's let's have theseconversations and let's make it
happen.
And again, we were fortunate toum to do that.
And I think we did a pretty goodjob.
And it was, again, because wehad a great team in place.
SPEAKER_02 (26:46):
So, where do you come down on?
I actually have that on my list.
I'm like, yeah, ask them aboutcell phones.
So I hear, you know, I ask a lotof educators about that, and
California has mandated by Juneof 2026 that every district and
charter uh LEA has a policy oncell phones.
(27:08):
Um, they suggest that you banthem, but they don't mandate it.
I've heard everything frompeople using wander bags already
to lock them up to people going,we're not banning anything.
Where do you stand on that?
SPEAKER_03 (27:20):
I mean, number one is I think it needs to be a
community conversation.
Like, I mean, one mistake wemake is like saying every
school's alike, all kids arealike, every community is alike.
So I think there need to bethoughtful conversations
involved.
Um, where we are like inLexington is the kids, when they
walk into the classroom, theyput it in a like one of those
shoe tree, like a holder, andthey're supposed to leave it
(27:42):
there for the whole class.
Even if they leave to take arestroom break, they're supposed
to leave the phone there.
Um, so that's a work inprogress.
Where I stand is like I thinkthings have changed.
Like when we went one-to-onewith um with iPads in
Burlington, gosh, I don't know,maybe 15 years ago.
I can't like it.
We weren't in the same place.
(28:03):
Like we didn't have such accessto apps.
And not every kid had their owncomputer at home, never mind at
school.
So we just thought we were kindof leveling the playing field by
doing some of this and givingteachers access to online
resources in their classroom.
Like everybody had access andthey're so again, the things are
moving so fast.
I think the pandemic hadsomething to do with this, but I
(28:25):
feel like kids are more isolatedthan ever, even though they have
access to these tools that canconnect them with anybody
anywhere.
And I I think there's a lot ofconversations we need to have um
with one another, especiallywith you know, AI now involved
in the mix.
But I read an article in TheAtlantic, I think it was like
(28:47):
August 4th, about like they didsurveys on kids, and I think the
the group that had surveyed thekids talked, like, you know, why
what we want you to put yourphones away.
Like, can you talk to us aboutthis and like get some answers
from the kids?
And I think what they found wasum kids want independent
(29:08):
opportunities to play with oneanother.
Like some of these things thatyou and I, you probably had
growing up, I know I did, was Icould go out and play in my
neighborhood by myself.
Um, I could go to the park andhave a pickup wiffle ball game
or a pickup baseball game.
And everything is so programmedfor kids nowadays, everything is
so organized, like they don'thave a chance to go out and have
(29:29):
the same, build the same kind ofsocial skills or have the same
social opportunities.
So it's weird, right?
Like parents won't let the kidsgrow up and play in the front
yard alone, but they'll let themgo up into their room on their
phone or their iPad and they canconnect with anybody in the
world.
Like it's kind of a it's astrange situation when you think
about it.
So I know I know there'scommunities that mentioned in
(29:52):
that article where they'retrying to um develop that up
these places and communitieswhere parents can drop kids off,
like drop them off at thePlayground and pick them up in a
couple hours.
So yeah, um I think our kidsneed help from us.
We spend so much time togetherin these spaces, and there's
(30:12):
opportunities in school.
We do like, what is it, 990hours in in Massachusetts with
kids, and I think they're there,but they're not there because of
the phones.
Like they're so tied to thesethings.
And um so I I do think from someof the things I've heard, it's
just a few, and like schoolswhere they tried this.
I I've heard interviews withkids on the local NPR station
(30:34):
saying, like, it was actuallygood.
Like I talked to this kid Inever would have talked to
before, and like they'rebuilding relationships.
And when I think about like, whyare our communities breaking
down?
And like, you know, we're we'reeither this or that, you know,
based on our and it's I thinkit's because we're not having
these conversations.
And like I think one of the mostvaluable things we could do for
(30:56):
our kids is like is bring thisback.
Like, let's, you know, yeah, youdon't think you have anything in
common with that.
So like let's have aconversation, you know.
Um, the way things are goingright now, it's it's a little
scary in the world, like whatwhat direction we're gonna go.
So I think the ability to justto have conversations with each
other is is more important thanever.
(31:17):
And I know I think the phonestake us away from that.
Even adults, like myselfincluded.
SPEAKER_02 (31:21):
Like, I know I've had my moments, you know, where
this was certainly not recently,but like where I was worried
about my responses on Twitter,you know, and yeah, that that's
the interesting thing, too, isthat I know that overwhelmingly,
as a group, at least nationally,teachers are strong advocates,
teacher unions are strongadvocates for restricting and
(31:44):
and or banning cell phones.
Um, I think it's the enforcementpiece is tricky, right?
Because it's the does it turnevery teacher into an
enforcement agent?
Does that become an oppositionalrelationship all over the place?
That's kind of an open question.
How do we as adults behave withour own technology?
(32:04):
Right?
Are we are we only using it forwork?
Like, or are we, you know, likeI don't know, how much Amazon
shopping is going on in anydistrict in any uh on in any one
of the United States, right?
Like so it's a trickyconversation.
SPEAKER_03 (32:21):
It is, yeah.
I don't think there's anyperfect answer, but um I like I
said, I think communities needto have these conversations
because certainly some of theresearch, the stuff we're seeing
about how our kids are doingmentally right now is is not
good.
And um I I think the the phonesplay a huge part in that.
SPEAKER_02 (32:41):
So we talked about the role that writing had in
your in has had in your past.
Um and I learned I learned aboutyou through a a profile in a in
a district administrationeducation influencers list.
Um talk to us about your yourwriting in terms of you know
(33:03):
philosophical and practicalstances in education, right?
And how those are connected toyour teaching.
SPEAKER_03 (33:09):
I think the reason I got into the the writing, um, or
I was looking for an outlet formy writing as a as an
administrator was to to share.
And like again, the idea wasn'tto share to say, look at me,
like we're doing the we're thebest school ever, we're doing
the best work, like you need tosee this.
(33:30):
It was more about like sharingexperiences and getting feedback
from other people and startstarting to build a network.
So I I was really fortunate tobe in these positions.
Like I said, when we wentone-to-one, I had a big social
media network with educatorsback at the time where like that
was kind of a new thing.
(33:52):
I started a blog called the BHSPrincipals blog um when I was
principal at Burlington High andlike blogged routinely, you
know, probably at least everyother day, if not more.
And just it was a time wherepeople would make comments,
reach out, and um it would therewas a huge edu blogger network,
(34:12):
and I just was it was justtiming, really, honestly, and a
willingness to share.
And um, like I just I stillthink it's so important that we
learn from one another.
It's it's still amazing to methat we have these tools to
connect each other and and learneach other, learn from each
other and network, but I stillfeel like we don't share a lot
(34:33):
school to school.
I don't I don't know if that'sconscious or like we're afraid
to share, or we don't want togive away secrets or what it is,
but um I I forget who said it.
There was this quote I heardonce that said the smartest
person in the room is the room,meaning like the more people we
bring together, like the betterthe ideas are gonna be.
(34:55):
Um and so I just was trying totake advantage of tools to like
put out my ideas, and and thenso many times people came back
and I was able to make thembetter because of things that
you know people in that networkwould share with me.
So I guess really big oncollaboration, like in schools,
like you can't do this work byyourself, you can't be like,
(35:19):
don't come into education or tryto be an educational leader
because you want to be asuperstar.
Like it's really about serving,you know, and and trying to
leave it better than you foundit.
And to do that, like you can'tmake suppositions about what's
best for a community.
Like you need to buildconnections in that community,
and you need to make people needto come up with these solutions
(35:40):
together if they're really gonnahave an impact.
SPEAKER_01 (35:43):
Now, did I see that you're now you've switched to
Substack?
SPEAKER_03 (35:47):
Yeah, I I haven't been writing as much recently.
Um so um, yeah, I I had awebsite and then Substack came
along, so I just play aroundwith that and hoping to get back
to um now that we started schoolthis week, to get back to doing
a little bit more of that.
Um, I see some of the peoplethat I used to um make comments
(36:10):
on their blogs on Substack andhoping to start to rebuild some
of those networks.
Um yeah, so I am using Substackright now.
I think it's a pretty easyresource to use.
And um, one of the things I doon the side too is I work for
this group called Ideas inMassachusetts, which um we do a
(36:31):
lot of uh work with schools andeducators around diversity,
equity, and inclusion, um, andand run some anti-racism
classes.
And and so um, it's a reallygreat model where you have a
white educator with a teacher ofcolor, and we we co-teach um
(36:52):
these sessions, and so that'ssomething I've been involved in.
So that prompted me to do like alot of my writing based on you
know issues that I was seeingaround inequity and anti-racism
in schools, and um so just aplace to put down my thoughts
and again share it with familyand my kids, like just to make
(37:12):
sure we're having theseconversations about things that
are happening right now.
SPEAKER_02 (37:17):
And and I'd imagine that it's gotten more
complicated or more there's moreattention put on it in the last
six or seven months, right?
Given given nationally the waythat that currents are have been
flowing related to you know, DEIis a capital DEI or a small DEI,
(37:38):
and and and like that wholething, has that has that
affected your work at all?
SPEAKER_03 (37:44):
I think it's impacting everybody's work to
some degree because that workisn't done on behalf of
Lexington Public Schools.
But right, I think a lot ofpeople are nervous about some of
the stuff coming out of the thecurrent administration and being
careful how they're wordingthings and reframing and right
rightfully so if grant money isgoing to be tied to things.
(38:05):
But I just think like at the endof the day, like if you and I
are having a conversation as twoadults that know a little bit
about this country, is tounderstand like this is pushback
against progress, where youknow, we have equity in our in
our schools, and um and and wecan cite like where these things
(38:27):
have happened before, you know,during during the civil rights
movement when we were trying to,you know, desegregate our
schools, like what did some ofthe where some of the southern
states did was they shut downtheir public schools and all the
kids went to private schools andfunds got redistributed.
And so I just I just think umit's important to have these
(38:50):
conversations.
One of our one of the things,the reasons I think that we're
in the position we're in as acountry is um we don't don't
study our histories, probablydon't see that these things
aren't these aren't new thingsthat are happening, but it's not
typical that in 50 states thatthat we teach these things
explicitly.
SPEAKER_02 (39:10):
So try to go back to that young man on the on the oh
man, what do you guys call it inthe Boston area?
Is that the the public?
What's the public transit there?
The MBTA or the T.
Yeah.
Yeah, the T.
So you're you're riding homeafter the after after been in
(39:30):
the locker room, and I'm kind ofglad you weren't in the Red Sox
uh locker room because I'm a I'ma Yankees Padres fan.
So we can take it.
That's good.
I'm okay.
Okay.
Um but uh so what advice doesyour current self give that
young man who then goes intofinds this love for coaching and
(39:52):
is like, and then a love forsubstitute teaching, which said
no one ever, right?
Like so, like what advice wouldyou give that that guy then that
that you think would make theirpath either easier or more
productive or more fruitful?
Because you've learned a lot oflessons, and I'm sure not all
(40:13):
easy ones.
SPEAKER_03 (40:14):
Yeah.
I mean, part of me, and thisseems like a cop-out, but I have
two answers.
Um, part of me is like thejourney has been the journey,
and I've kind of like learned somuch at each stop, like even
where things don't always endwell, but that's reality too.
Like, but to be reflective on myown part and why things don't
(40:39):
always go well.
So I I think I mean part of itis about like don't be
defensive, um like take sometime to like think before
responding.
But another part of me mightsay, like, don't be afraid to
make a move earlier.
Um I think to know like thatbeing really comfortable isn't
(41:01):
always a good thing.
So I think you know, again, Ihave no regrets, but maybe I
shouldn't have stayed at theschool I grew up in so for so
long.
But again, I loved every minuteof it.
Um maybe not stay in Burlingtonso long.
Um but again when I was there,like, you know, it wasn't like I
(41:22):
was visible.
So yeah, I just I just think thenumber one thing as I get older
and I still tell myself is likejust don't react when you feel
that the blood boiling.
Um don't react.
Sit in that discomfort.
And this was one of the thingswe talked about too when we're
we're dealing with issues aroundrace.
(41:43):
Um, especially like if I knowthat I I made a mistake in
regards to, you know, one of mybiases coming out, which one of
my implicit biases showingitself and learning a little bit
more about myself, was just likesit in the discomfort and and
and learn from it.
That's that's the one thing Iguess uh the advice I would
give.
SPEAKER_02 (42:04):
Yeah, it's interesting to as a sports fan,
you know, to reflect on even onJackie Robinson, right?
He was obviously a star athlete,but but he wasn't the only
African-American star athlete,right?
And so the powers that be thatkind of selected him for that
path realized that theattributes that he had of
(42:24):
self-control and and just reallyowning his emotions um were as
important as the athletic piece.
SPEAKER_00 (42:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (42:35):
And yeah, you know, he him being in situations that
you and I will never know,right?
SPEAKER_03 (42:40):
Like, yeah, yeah.
And yeah, like that's the thing.
Like, even like I remembersomebody saying once, and like,
this is me again as a white guybeing oblivious, is like you
know Jackie Robinson was thefirst major league baseball
player, we all know that.
But he wasn't the first one thatwas good enough.
There were there were so youknow, I mean um yeah, so it's
(43:04):
yeah, just reframing thingssometimes, like you know, the
way the way you know you forgotabout things once.
Like the fact that you can learnsomething every day in school,
like to change it back to thatis like that's why I love the
job.
Like you're never gonna gothrough probably a week.
Um, that might be even too longof a time frame, but get to the
(43:25):
end of a period in in your jobin school and be like, I didn't
learn something this week.
You know, it's never gonnahappen.
Like, I keep joking, like, oh,coming back for another year,
hoping I can get it right thisyear.
And uh, you know, it's notthere's never gonna be a year
where you get it all right.
And that's I think one of thethings that I love about it too.
SPEAKER_02 (43:44):
Well what's next for you?
Because I you made a commentabout, you know, you have a
certain number of, you know, Ithink you and I are probably on
the back nine.
Yeah.
Uh I think I'm ahead of you.
Uh so but uh but um but youknow, thinking about what's
next.
Um, and you talked about how thesystem in Massachusetts is kind
(44:05):
of designed.
I'm assuming at a certain level,you kind of flatline on your in
your pension contributions andet cetera.
We have the same thing inCalifornia.
I think that's a reallyshort-sighted design that they
have actually for the pensionbecause they they live they the
system loses a lot of valuableinstitutional knowledge.
Um, you know, a 62-year-oldtoday is not a 62-year-old of 50
(44:29):
years ago, but that's adifferent conversation.
What's next for you?
SPEAKER_03 (44:33):
Yeah, it's a good, it's a really good question.
Like I said to my wife, and I'vesaid this in school, so like I
can hit that ceiling in two moreyears, like this year and one
more.
And it's like it's way too soon.
I love where I'm at right now.
Um, if there's a way to staylonger, and I don't want it to
(44:54):
be all about finances either.
That seems right really, youknow.
But yeah, I have kids withcollege debt, and I'm like, so I
don't know, like if I'm notgonna leave if I don't have a
plan, but I said I have twoyears to start to, you know,
come up with some ideas.
Um I have a good friend of mine,Cale Burke.
Um, he's written a couple books,um, most recently, like one
(45:18):
called Words on the Wall, um,which is a really great book
about schools.
And like we all have thesemission statements that we put
up on the walls and and goalsand things, but like I don't
think we have enoughconversations around like what
does that look like in action?
Um like how do we show evidencethat we're really living up to
(45:38):
these missions or or corevalues?
Like, what does that look likeif a teacher's doing it, if a
student's doing it?
Like, we don't we just set thesegreat documents and then like
oh, we're done.
SPEAKER_02 (45:49):
Like life, like lifelong learner.
SPEAKER_03 (45:51):
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
So he he goes around, he worksaround the globe, like um
working with schools on makingthis explicit, making it
something they can assessthemselves on and um really
doing neat things.
So, like I've talked to himabout like, is there a place in
that world?
Because I love thoseconversations when I I um won
(46:14):
this award when I was uhprincipal, I think it might have
been around 2012, from an ASSPcalled the Digital Principal of
the Year Award.
And um, so I got to go out andum you know speak a little bit
at different conferences and atin different states around the
country.
I get to go to a conference inEngland and speak.
And um, I like, I mean, I don'tI don't need to speak in front
(46:37):
of crowds, but I'd like to, it'sfine.
But that's I'd rather if I couldif you could build connections
with school communities and andhelp support people doing good
work, like I think that thatwould be a great option.
Um I mean I would do an interimprincipal job, but again, that's
not the really the work I wantto do where you get to like I
(47:00):
want I'd love to do some moreongoing work, like not just like
flyby stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (47:05):
Well, you're you're very humble about your about
your achievements and and um youknow I think the the the online
presence piece and your yourhonest blogging and writing
about about equity issues, uhfor me I admire that because as
a as a a fellow white guy, umit's a little tricky when you're
(47:31):
a white guy blogging aboutequity issues.
Either either you're seen aspandering or you're seen as uh
that's easy for you to saybecause you're either part of
the problem or you have no ideawhat the hell you're talking
about, right?
Um and so I I I see I still seea lot of writing about schools,
(47:51):
but there's not a lot of honestum perspectives that really go
into uncomfortable topics.
So I've appreciated that andsome of the things I've found
that you've written.
SPEAKER_03 (48:01):
Yeah.
I know you started the um theinterview today around like me
giving a little bit of my umidentity, who I am.
(48:23):
And I think one of the mostimportant things like that we
can do as educators, especiallyum, you know, white educators
working in schools where um wehave colleagues of color and
students of color, is understandour identity and realize like
how that impacts the spaces weshow up in.
(48:45):
Um, I think it's a huge, it's ahugely important question
because I remember um the firsttime I was asked, like, how did
my race influence you know mylife?
And I was like, what?
What do you mean?
And then I'm like, oh, snap,like that's a problem.
So I just I think it's a greatquestion to start with like how
does your identity impact likehow you show up in your
(49:07):
classroom?
Again, if people don't, youdon't nobody it's an answer
that's always at work.
That's what I love about it.
It's like it's a work inprogress.
Like, I'm never gonna have theoh, that's the A plus answer.
Like, that's not the point.
The point is to like continue tobe reflective.
Like, you know, for me, not togo off on a tangent.
(49:29):
For me, it's like I have so manyyears of being oblivious to the
things that were right in frontof me.
Like, I'm never gonna get whereI'd like to see myself, you
know, but I'm gonna, you know,try and when I screw it up, I'm
gonna take responsibility andkeep moving forward because it's
too important not to.
SPEAKER_02 (49:48):
Have your own kids gone to school in similar
schools to where the ones you'veled?
SPEAKER_03 (49:54):
Um yeah, I mean, my kids went to school in southern
New Hampshire at a pretty large,um, predominantly white high
school.
So um, so yeah, kind of moresimilar to what I attended.
Um, but you know, we have we dohave a lot of conversations
around the dinner table, andunfortunately, like despite
despite, you know, where they'regrowing up, they uh are starting
(50:19):
to peel some blinders off.
So that's great.
SPEAKER_02 (50:22):
Yeah, it's it's always an interesting thing to
reflect back as we get in middleage or beyond and think about
the way we were raised, and thenthe way our own kids are being
raised and what theirexperiences have been like.
And um I always tell mydaughter, I have a 23-year-old
daughter, and I just tell her,like, you know, I don't, I
(50:44):
certainly don't have all theanswers, but let me tell you
about a few mistakes that Imade.
And the sooner you can learnabout this thing and get out
ahead of it, then it's gonnasave you some suffering, and
maybe you can the world will getincrementally better through
that process.
SPEAKER_03 (51:00):
A first-year teacher um as a daughter, she's just
started her first.
So that's yeah, so we have a lotof conversations, unfortunate.
And she went through a master'sprogram at BU and she was
reading some great stuff.
She read um one of Dr.
Bettina Love's books, who is umI would highly recommend her
(51:20):
work if nobody's seen it.
Um Punished for Dreaming is oneof her titles.
I'm trying to remember the otherones, but um, she's just
phenomenal.
If you ever want to see a a goodclip about like what it looks
like to be a um she doesn't callit an ally, she calls it a
co-conspirator.
If you ever want to see a goodclip on like what it means to be
(51:43):
a white person who's aco-conspirator and creating a
better place for all of us, umjust look up um Bettina Love
Ally versus Co-Conspirator.
It's a it's a great little clipum from uh from the P2B panel
she was on.
Um probably like less than fiveminutes, but just awesome
policy.
SPEAKER_02 (52:05):
That's great.
Thank you for thank you forthat.
Um I you've been very generouswith your time, and I I want to
honor that.
Is there anything that I haven'tcovered?
I have one more question foryou, but is there anything that
I haven't covered that's beenknocking around that you're
like, yeah, I'd like to mentionthis as this as the new school
year kicks off for you?
SPEAKER_03 (52:24):
I you know, I mentioned briefly like my friend
Kale's book, and um I likelooked at our cup, we have some
great core values in LexingtonPublic Schools, and um two of
them that I'm really fond ofthat I think apply to like some
of the work I do with students,and I put them up outside my
office yesterday where um we allbelong and you are enough.
(52:48):
And um I really want to haveconversations with students this
year um about what does thatlook like to them when when
students uphold that core valueof we all belong.
Like what does it look like?
It's not one thing, it's a lotof it.
So just if I could get if Icould hear students like tell me
what they think it looks like,that would be really powerful, I
(53:10):
think.
So that's that's one of thethings I'm hoping to do this
year.
And so that's all I would say islike to to people like you know,
find find like a goal or a focalpoint for your year and and try
to stay with it.
It's not easy because we got youknow, we always get caught up in
the minutia of the day-to-day,and all those aspirations we
(53:32):
have fall back because the busywork.
But try to find some time foryourself to like stay on that
thing that like fills yourbucket.
SPEAKER_02 (53:41):
So the last question is uh hypothetical.
So let's say you have theopportunity to design a
billboard on the side of thefreeway.
Yep.
Uh uh, or the the highway, Ican't remember what it's called
in Massachusetts.
I don't have to call it ahighway, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Um what does your billboard sayabout about what you believe in?
SPEAKER_03 (54:07):
Yeah, I mean, I I do like not to make it like too
simple, but I mean I do lovethat core value is like we all
belong, you know, we all belong.
And if people like don't feelthat way, like I I want to in I
want to try to engage, or ifthey can't engage, like I don't
(54:27):
I don't really want to, I'm notgonna give them any energy, you
know, because um I'm I'm justconcerned about like the
dehumanization that happens whenwe when we don't feel that way.
Like if it's a group, if it's areligious belief, it's a race
that you feel like people don'tbelong, um and you're gonna
(54:47):
start to use dehumanizinglanguage, it's a it's a deal
breaker for me.
So I I would that's what I wouldsay.
Like we all belong, like andhave you know have some pictures
of you know diverse groups ofpeople together, but it's a
tough time.
It's it's a pretty romanticvision.
Uh it's unfortunate that we'rewe are where we are right now.
(55:08):
So um yeah, I I I just keep itsimple, I guess.
That's all I can do.
SPEAKER_02 (55:17):
Thanks for joining us on the Hangout Podcast.
You can send us an email atpodcastinfo at proton.me.
Many thanks to my daughter Mayafor editing this episode.
I'd also like to underline thatthis podcast is entirely
separate from my day job.
And as such, all opinionsexpressed herein are mine and
(55:38):
mine alone.
Thanks for coming on in andhanging out.
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