November 16, 2025 • 53 mins
If you’ve ever wondered who should decide where a child learns, this conversation gets straight to the heart of that question. We sit down with Shaka Mitchell—education leader, attorney, and school choice advocate—to trace a journey from a working-class Long Island childhood and a small Catholic school to law school, DC policy work, and leading charter school growth in Tennessee. Along the way, we unpack what “school choice” actually means, how it functions across charters, magnets, vouchers, ESAs, and homeschooling, and why a clean framework—who pays, who provides, and who decides—clarifies the options for families.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
Welcome to the Hang Out Podcast.
I'm your host, David Sheretta.
Come on in and hang out.
In today's conversation, I satdown with Shaka Mitchell.
Shaka was raised on Long Islandand is now based in Nashville,
(00:25):
where he is an education leaderand attorney.
His career spans DC policy,leading charter school growth in
Tennessee, and now advancing thecause of school choice at the
American Federation forChildren.
In this conversation, we diginto the real menu of choice in
(00:47):
the education sector from publiccharters to magnets to vouchers,
homeschooling, clarifying mythsalong the way, covering the
topics of equity, access, parentagency, and how policy meets the
everyday life of a school and aschool day.
(01:07):
I thoroughly enjoyed thisconversation with Shaka Mitchell
and his deep reflection,experience, and thinking around
education in America.
I'm sure you'll enjoy thisepisode as well.
Welcome, Shaka.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday from Nashville and for
(01:28):
having this conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (01:29):
Yeah, thanks, David.
It's really good to be on withyou, and I'm looking forward to
our conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (01:34):
I thought we could start with your origin story,
your background, where you comefrom, and because ultimately
that dictates who you are todayin the world.
SPEAKER_01 (01:47):
Yeah, sure.
Yeah, happy to talk a little bitabout that.
And um I'll try to keep it briefbecause it's probably the least
exciting part of ourconversation.
Um but I was born and raised umon Long Island in New York.
And um I I guess my that kind oforigin story is also a little
(02:07):
bit of the the professionalorigin story, too, because um
those the two things are soclosely linked.
Um where I lived on Long Island,it was in a very much a working
class neighborhood, um, workingclass and lower income
neighborhood uh in in NassauCounty, Hempstead.
(02:30):
And the schools that we wouldhave been set to attend were
low-performing academically, um,unsafe.
Um, there's all these storiesabout Hempstead High School, and
anybody who's from Long Islandwould might know some of these
stories about Hempstead HighSchool where just crazy things
(02:50):
were happening, like kidssetting fire to the carpets and
um just you know, stuff that'sthat goes beyond shenanigans and
uh was really became unsafe.
And anyway, so you know, my momwas looking for other options.
So I went to the one of thelocal Catholic schools, and you
(03:10):
know, with help with help fromthe diocese, and um, and this
was not like some Tony uhprivate school with lots of
acreage and whatnot.
It was a you know a smallschool.
Um we had recessed most of thetime in the you know, in the
parking lot that became the buslot at the end of the day, and
(03:32):
it's a lot of you know um blackand Latino kids.
Um and I would say it made allthe difference, right?
Like that um being in thatsetting, I think made a
tremendous difference uh for thestudents who were there, for me
and my siblings who would alsoattend there.
(03:54):
And then we ended up moving andwe moved from New York to um
outside Atlanta to actuallyoutside Marietta to Powder
Springs, Georgia.
So you talk about a big culturalshift.
We moved from Long Island toMarietta or to Powder Springs,
and uh and that's where I wentto high school.
(04:14):
I went to a big public highschool there.
But you know, we went down therebecause it was like cost of
living was so much cheaper.
This is what the uh mid early tomid-90s.
Um, yeah, cost of living supercheap.
So you go down there and and I Ireally thought that like we had
arrived.
You know, we lived in a housethat was a new construction
(04:36):
house in a cul-de-sac.
I was like, oh my gosh, this isbasically like we're rich.
We made it.
And um, and you know, and it's aand it's a lovely home.
My parents still live there.
Um, but I went there and uh mymy siblings attended those
schools, yeah, and then um wentto went to college in Nashville,
(04:58):
which is where I live currently,did law school in North
Carolina, and was in DC workingfor a little while in the
education sector, and uh that'swhere um you know my wife and I
got married while we were in DCand then eventually moved back
to Nashville, where I live.
And I've got three girls, threeschool-age daughters who um, you
(05:22):
know, this very day will have uhit's the first pep rally of the
year.
So we're hitting fall, you know,the fall school year.
So that's kind of the story.
SPEAKER_00 (05:29):
What what role has faith played in in your journey?
You went to a Catholic school.
Was that choice made?
I mean, you mentioned the kindof the qualitative change from
from the sounds like the whatwas that Michelle Pfeiffer
movie, the dangerous minds orsomething, where you have that
stereotypical the teacher turnstheir back and stuff starts
(05:50):
flying Nashville County.
SPEAKER_01 (05:52):
Or like lean on me.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:54):
Yeah, exactly.
That kind of a thing.
Um, did did the faith part playany role at Catholic school and
beyond?
SPEAKER_01 (06:01):
Yeah, I I think so.
It um well, certainly it itplayed a role.
I mean, going to Catholicschool, um, I mean, I I just
took for granted the fact thatwe had religion as a class, like
we had math, you know, like wehad history.
I mean, it was just a class thatwe that we had.
And um first Friday of themonth, we marched across the
(06:25):
parking lot to mass.
And um, yeah, it was just a apart of the of the culture for
sure.
Um, that being said, not everykid who goes to Catholic school
is Catholic, right?
I think that that's the case forum for probably most uh
faith-based schools.
(06:47):
Um, but I think it did have abig influence in part.
I would I I believe, and I don'tknow if we want to jump right
into this, but um I think thatfor faith-based schools it's
actually easier to have a clearmission.
Um because if your mission issomething like let's say your
(07:11):
mission is something that isindeed tied to the Bible, right?
Tied to scripture, tied to yourthe the texts that are the
tenets of your faith, likethat's not changing.
As compared to if you are aconventional public school, your
mission fluctuates with um everyschool board election,
(07:34):
potentially, right?
And so you can sort of get getwhipsawed around a little bit in
terms of like, oh, this yearwe're focused on STEM.
Two years from now, we'refocused on reading
interventions.
You know, five years from nowwe're gonna be focused on
high-dose tutoring and uh socialprogramming and you know, after
school stuff, as compared to, Ithink I it's my belief, as
(07:59):
compared to many faith-basedschools, I think, can just sort
of say, like the mission ofJesuit schools, for instance,
hasn't really changed since likethe 1600s.
Um now, the other thingschanged.
There's some some pedagogicalthings, but yeah, I think it
definitely had had an impact onon sort of values and culture.
(08:21):
And I would say it alsopersonally was really impactful
um because I knew lots of thosestories.
I knew lots of those like youknow, Bible stories, and then
later in life when when I wouldsay I really came to faith and
embraced um uh Christianity, I Isort of had this had this
(08:42):
baseline of knowledge already,because I I had you know gone to
school for nine years readingthese stories and um that I knew
as kind of historical, but lateron came to came to really um
embrace.
SPEAKER_00 (08:57):
So you went to law school in North Carolina, uh
then you you started to work inDC, you said, and so how does
law school lead to work ineducation to then the work you
do today?
I know there's a a full careerthere, um, or you know, you're
you're still a young man, butit's a lot of work that you've
(09:19):
done.
So walk us through kind of thedifferent signposts along the
way um in that career.
SPEAKER_01 (09:26):
Yeah.
So I have a lot of students andum like college students who
will ask me, um, hey, what doyou think about law school?
Because I'm thinking about it.
What what advice would you give?
And um one of the first things Itell them is law school is a
great place to go if you want tobe a lawyer.
(09:49):
And I know that sounds like youknow, there's nothing profound
about that, but I didn't reallyhave anyone who told me that.
So I didn't know any lawyerswhen I went to law school.
You know, I was a um my parentsuh didn't graduate college, I
didn't have a whole lot of folksin my in my network, um, small
(10:12):
as it was, that had that kind ofprofessional experience.
So I kind of went to law schoolthinking, oh, well, I think
eventually I want to work onlaws, like legislation, like
legislation, policy, justice,like big issues, macro stuff.
And I thought, well, what do youdo?
(10:33):
Where do you go?
Uh after you studied politicalscience, I guess you go to law
school.
And um, I didn't really realizethat a lot of people go to law
school so that they can do likereal estate transactions and you
know, um corporate financestuff.
And that's and that's greatstuff, and somebody's got to do
that.
But I knew from the jump thatthat was not what I was most
interested in.
(10:53):
So um I went because I was muchmore interested in um in in
policy, in shaping law andlegislation later on, um, much
more interested inconstitutional questions than I
was the smaller contractualissues or procedural issues.
(11:14):
And so um, which, you know, madethe first year of law school
really challenging becauseyou've got to get through all
that um baseline stuff beforeyou start asking these deeper
questions.
But I do think it it was still agreat way to kind of um sharpen
my writing and my researchskills and kind of critical
(11:37):
thinking skills.
I think law school is stillreally, really good for that.
And so so I did that and thenwas like, yeah, you know, I
think education was just kind ofthe passion for me.
I just thought, man, if we geteducation right, how many other
things downstream will improve?
You know, if we get educationright, think, you know, K-12
education, will we have betterhealth outcomes?
(11:59):
I think so.
Will we have better um outcomesin the criminal justice, you
know, sort of system?
I I think we will.
Um, will we have better economicoutcomes?
Yes.
And so to me, education was justwas something close to like a
first principle.
Like, let's work on that andthen um reap some benefits later
(12:22):
on.
SPEAKER_00 (12:24):
So, what was your first step in in moving into the
education realm?
SPEAKER_01 (12:29):
Yeah, my first step was um going to DC, and I worked
at a place called the Center forEducation Reform, which was a
um, I mean, as the nameindicates, kind of an
all-encompassing uh ed reformpolicy shop.
And uh, and I'll say this, itwas a really good time for me to
(12:50):
get to DC.
So that's this is 2004, and asyou'll remember, um, No Child
Left Behind uh Act was passed in2001.
And so by 2004, this is aboutthe time when the teeth of that
law were starting to kind ofcome into effect.
You know, people sort of forgetand and maybe begrudge that law
(13:14):
a little bit, but you know,prior to that law, like we
didn't have good data.
You know, at the at the schoollevel, we didn't have good data,
certainly for like subgroupswithin schools.
It was like, you know, we'd say,is that a good school?
And people say, Oh, yes, that'san A, an A school.
How do you know?
Well, the kids are happy andthey have a baseball field.
Okay, that's not great data,right?
(13:37):
Um, so No Child Left Behindpasses, and all of a sudden, for
the first time across thecountry, you had schools that
were deemed failing schools.
And then the question is, well,what do we do?
And so that's when I was cominginto you know my career in this
(13:57):
education reform space.
So it was a really good timebecause um as an answer to the
question, what do we do aboutthese schools?
People were thinking about umcharter schools and district to
charter conversions, people werethinking about vouchers and
private choice programs, teacherperformance pay, just all sorts
(14:19):
of different things.
And so I think it was a reallyexciting time for me to enter
that space.
And um, yeah, really got my eyesopen to a lot of things at the
at that point at the federal andkind of state level.
SPEAKER_00 (14:36):
So you you work there, and then talk to us about
your transition into morespecifically the charter school
sector, um, the work you've doneum specifically, and then your
work your work around schoolchoice writ large.
SPEAKER_01 (14:55):
Sure.
Sure.
So, you know, I um I think myfirst exposure to charter
schools was when I was in DC,you know, I started meeting um
founders of of various charterschools.
DC has a large charter school uhuh community.
I mean, I think something like50% of DC schools now are
(15:16):
charters.
And and even back then it was ait was a higher percentage than
other places, most other placesin the country.
So I had a chance to tourschools for the first time and
see some of these innovativepractices that were happening.
I then went and worked for a aconstitutional firm where we
represented families who werelooking to participate in choice
(15:39):
programs.
Um but uh we got married, mywife Stephanie and I got
married, and knew pretty quicklythat we did not want to stay in
DC.
So as we looked at other places,um Nashville was a was kind of
on our short list, and um I Iknew that I still wanted to
(16:04):
press forward on education workand education policy, and I was
doing some policy work when Ifirst came to Nashville.
And for me, the question wasless about what educational
system, charter, private, etc.,and more about all right, what's
at the tip of the spear?
(16:25):
And at that time in Tennessee,it was charters.
You know, we didn't have aprivate choice program.
We had charters, and we had a uma new thing that was about to
start called the AchievementSchool District.
And so I got connected withsomeone that I had met some
years earlier, um, named JeremyKane.
(16:45):
He had started a school inNashville called Lead uh Public
Schools.
And he said, Hey, we're about toexpand.
And, you know, as you know,David, he said, I don't know
what we're gonna need next, butwe're gonna need we're gonna
need some people who can dig inand who are not afraid to work
(17:05):
and who can help and who canthink in a few different
domains.
And I was like, sure, let's doit.
And so um when I started atlead, we had just opened our
second school, which was thefirst conversion charter in the
state.
And then we opened two moreschools after that in in
(17:26):
successive years.
We opened the first AchievementSchool District School.
So this is a bottom 5% school inthe district that converted to a
charter.
Um, and then after that, I wentand I I became the first uh
regional director here inTennessee for Rocket Chip.
And so we opened three schoolsum with Rocket Ship.
(17:49):
And so, yeah, I got to I got tosee firsthand both the school
day, right?
Because I was, you know,officing out of a out of a
middle school or an elementaryschool.
And so um was reallyexperiencing the the school in a
and the school community in away that I hadn't when I was in
(18:10):
DC, right?
That's kind of it at arm'slength, and I think it actually
does a disservice if policypeople never get in a school
building.
I think it's um they can you'renecessarily disconnected.
So it was super helpful um forme to just be on the ground and
go, oh, okay, here's what theday looks like.
(18:31):
Here's the cycle, the rhythm ofa school year, and how that
informs your policy.
And so um yeah, it was really,really valuable.
SPEAKER_00 (18:42):
So the concept of school choice is an interesting
and nuanced one, and I thinkoften misunderstood.
Uh you you you know, in aminute, I'll get you can give
your perspective on that.
But from my perspective, it'soften misunderstood.
Having worked now for over threedecades in charter schools, I
(19:03):
every day run into people whomistakenly think charter schools
are private, mistakenly thinkthat students have to take a an
exam or a test, they have totest in.
Yeah.
They've seen waiting forSuperman, and they, you know,
they have some perceptions aboutthat.
Um, then we have at certainlywith this most recent iteration
(19:27):
of Donald Trump, but even theprevious iteration of Donald
Trump, vouchers started to gainlegs as a as an option.
I know now several dozen stateshave some semblance of a voucher
or voucher-esque um program.
Uh, can you kind of take usthrough the the menu of options
(19:48):
that if of things that you'rethinking about when you talk
about school choice?
Like from public, private,vouchers, charter, like how
should our listeners think aboutand navigate that?
Just the it's it's a big, it'sbig.
SPEAKER_01 (20:04):
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think you'reabsolutely right.
There's a lot of misconceptionsabout choice.
There it requires a good deal ofnuance.
And you know, to be fair, partof the reason is because the
educational environment uh looksso different today than it did
(20:29):
um you know 20 years ago,definitely 30, 40 years ago.
And now that's not the case inevery state, but in a lot of
states.
I mean, if you think about theeducational options that exist
in Washington, DC today, none ofthis, you couldn't even fathom
(20:49):
this ecosystem 25 years ago.
Um, because you've got a voucherthere, the DC Opportunity
Scholarship Program, you've gota you've got charter schools
that are thriving.
Um you now have district magnetschools, I believe.
So yeah, so what it what does itall mean?
(21:10):
I think kind of at at the core,um school choice or educational
choice or educational freedom,whatever the parlance is that
that you prefer, I think it hasto do with um who is best
positioned to make theeducational placement decision
(21:32):
for the child.
That's that's kind of the to methat's the um the most important
like unit, right?
Who's at the who is bestpositioned to make that
decision.
Um to say that a school districtis best positioned to make that
(21:54):
decision, I think kind of reallylike you've got a you've gotta
stretch reality um to to saythat with a straight face,
because you know, I don't knowhow big the district is in San
Diego.
Here in Nashville, where I live,our district now, I mean, you've
got about a hundred thousandkids, a hundred and ten thousand
(22:16):
school-age kids.
SPEAKER_00 (22:18):
Yeah, that's what San Diego Unified is about.
SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's a that's a lot ofkids.
I I only have three in myfamily.
And um and it's clear that mythree kids uh have you know
different learning styles, theyare drawn to different subjects,
(22:41):
right?
Um if you're a family and someof your kids have exceptional
needs, then you know that nowyou're that's another layer
you've got to put on top.
So so the question is, allright, you do that, and now you
multiply those differences timesan entire county or an entire
city.
How is one school board gonnamake decisions that are in the
(23:06):
best interest of every singlechild?
I just think it it's impossible.
And that's not because schoolboard members or school district
employees are bad people.
I just think it's it's like a anumbers thing.
It's a reality, right?
Um there's too many, there's toomany kids with too many needs to
(23:26):
do that, too many unique needs.
So the concept of school choiceis all right, well, let's give
some of the decision making thento our parents.
Um but what we're gonna do isper state law, because this is
the case in every state, everystate says that it's going to
pay for education.
(23:48):
But I think what um what doesn'thave to be the case is that it
doesn't mean that it's uh goingto both pay for and provide the
education, right?
So that's the that's thedifference.
And um it's separating those twothings so that we can say, yeah,
great.
Um let's let the the city ofNashville and the state of
(24:14):
Tennessee pay for education.
But we're gonna let mom and dadmake the decision about where
this child should go because umthey've got you know they've got
the most direct link and they'vegot real skin in the game in
terms of what what's gonna workbest for him.
That's I I think kind offundamentally what's there.
(24:34):
Now, policy-wise, yeah, youasked about like what are some
of the ranges, um, some of thedifferences in policies.
I mean, um, this kind of startedout, I'll try to hit it quickly,
but um you know, most peoplethink about um private choice as
just vouchers.
But I think again, if you thinkabout those the the pillars that
(24:57):
I mentioned, who pays for it andwho controls it, right?
Who who pays, who controls, andwho sort of provides the
education.
In um on one end of thespectrum, you've got say a a
district, and the district paysfor the education and it
provides the education, and theytell you where to go, right?
(25:18):
They say you're you live on 24,whatever, Poplar Street.
This is where you go to school,period.
So you don't have any any say inthe matter.
The other end of the spectrumwould be if would be say really
homeschool, and would be allright, family pays for it,
(25:39):
family provides it, they'regonna figure out what the what
the school day looks like.
That's at the other end.
Everything else is in the bigmiddle, right?
So you've got a charter schoolwhere, as you know, as as your
audience, most of your audiencewill know, a charter school, not
a private school.
Why?
Because the government stillpays, but now you have this
(26:03):
independent, usually nonprofitboard kind of making the
decisions about how to operateit.
And who makes the choice?
Well, parents make the choice.
They say, I want to go to thatcharter school because it's got
a STEM focus, or it's got, youknow, it's doing some cool
things with um English languagelearners or, you know, whatever
it is.
Down the way, then you mighthave a private school.
(26:26):
And again, private schools wouldbe private pay, private um uh
placement, but the school itselffigures that out.
Where a choice program comes inis we say, okay, we're gonna
take the money that would havegone to the public school, and
we're gonna let families carrythat to whatever option they
want.
And um and we're gonna againtrust that parents are the are
(26:52):
the closest ones to the enduser, and that is a student, and
so that they're gonna do what'sum in the best interest of
students.
SPEAKER_00 (27:01):
And thank you for that uh for that overview.
I think it's really helpful forfor the conversation and for
thinking about this.
One of the the knocks againstschool choice, the the the last
uh descriptor that you used, andI'm sure you've heard this all
often, is that that's all welland good to be able to take your
(27:24):
um allocation or allotment of Xamount of dollars to wherever
you want to go.
Um uh what happens if that's notenough to cover the cost of a
private setting?
That's one part of the question.
The other part of it is uh whathappens if we're dealing with a
family that just historically, Imean, assuming every set of
(27:47):
parents loves and cares fortheir kids and wants the best
for their kids, I think that's agood assumption place to start
with, a respectful place.
But the systemic um empowermentthat comes with this idea of
choice isn't just a defaultthing for people, right?
Like uh how do you think aboutum uh both empowering choice for
(28:15):
people who very likely havechoice in all elements of their
lives and exercise it freely?
Um, people like you and Isitting here now on this call,
and then also people who may noteven have ever had to make a
choice about education for theirkid and suddenly they're living
in a place where that's anoption.
I think about Texas, forexample, right?
(28:36):
Governor Abbott um pushed superhard, and I think it costs some
politicians their jobs in thelast um primaries, and suddenly
there's a there's a thing goingon in Texas.
But the question is like, isthat empowering everybody, or is
it a select few people like mewho might have had my kid in a
private school anyway, and nowI'm getting a$10,000 discount
(28:58):
for that?
Right.
Talk about kind of how you thinkthat through from an equity and
access standpoint.
SPEAKER_01 (29:05):
Yeah, great questions.
So your first question, what ifthe what if the the scholarship
or the voucher or the educationsavings account, whatever uh
whatever form it takes.
SPEAKER_00 (29:17):
Tax break, whatever it is, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:18):
Yeah, what if it's what if it's not enough?
So um one, these things areincreasing.
I mean, at at AmericanFederation for Children, where I
work, we we always push for likea minimum of 70% of the per
pupil allocation to be part ofone of these scholarships.
(29:38):
In Texas, this new law that youreferenced, so it just passed in
May of uh 2025.
It's gonna be about$10,000 perper student.
Like 10 grand that'll spend, youknow?
Um, and here's what what I wouldsay about what if it's not
enough?
Because you're absolutely rightthat there are schools with
(29:59):
tuition.
That are much higher than that.
But what I think a lot of folksfail to realize is what happens
when you inject capital intothis ecosystem.
So it does a few things.
One, it allows it actuallyallows philanthropic dollars and
(30:24):
scholarships, school-basedscholarships, to go farther.
Because schools are not going tostop raising money.
You can believe that.
Schools are going to keepraising money because people get
a tax break when they contributeto a school, typically, to a
scholarship fund.
(30:44):
So schools are going to continueto raise money.
Now what you're doing is you'reallowing a school's financial
aid to go further and reach morekids.
And I've seen that firsthand inNashville, where a school told
me that they had, they basicallyhad one scholarship that they
could give.
(31:06):
They had the equivalent of$14,000 or$15,000 that they
could give.
They had two girls from the sameschool who applied, and they
were like, man, these girls aregreat.
We want them both to attend.
Neither one of them can affordit.
If those girls had the$7,000ESA, then the school could split
(31:31):
that financial aid and broughtboth girls and not have to make
that awful choice between one orthe other.
So it allows it to go further.
Parents will figure figure itout and will and are savvy
(31:53):
enough to um to come up with alittle extra.
That's a lot of money.
(32:33):
And again, at AFC, we think it'sreally important to prioritize
lower-income families in theseprograms.
And so you can do that in anumber of ways.
You can, for instance, you canreserve some seats or some
scholarships for low-incomefamilies.
That's one way to do it.
You can give priority accessduring the application process,
(32:57):
right?
Because we know that wealthy,politically savvy families are
going to log in and apply forour program on like minute one.
Right.
So we think if there are ways toopen up the application process
first to families whohistorically have lacked that
(33:17):
kind of access, that that's a away to kind of balance the
scales a little bit.
So there's some things that youcan do from a policy standpoint
that um that keep that thatthose communities kind of um as
a as a focal point.
And then the last thing I wouldsay is I really do think that um
(33:40):
that choice begets choice.
And maybe a corollary to that isthat agency begets agency.
And what I mean there is that umI don't think it should be
surprising.
You you I bet you've heard this,David.
I bet you've heard um colleaguesat other schools, especially
(34:02):
public schools, talk about, oh,we don't have, we you know, we
can't get enough parents out forthis parent night, or there's
not enough of the right kind ofparent engagement.
Um, and I would say is, well,how responsive have you been to
parents?
Because if you're a school thathas a history of being
(34:23):
unresponsive to parents, whywould you expect parents to keep
coming out?
I wouldn't do that, right?
If I was if I kept makingcomments, dropping dropping
notes in the comment box andthey went unanswered, I would
stop dropping comments in thebox.
And I would just ignore it andgo, well, I guess we can't fix
it.
I guess it is what it is.
The flip side of that is whenum, and there's a guy out of
(34:45):
University of Arkansas that'sdone some work on this, uh,
Patrick Wolfe.
Um, when families participate ina choice program and they choose
a school and it works for them,there's actually some indicators
that those families have highercivic engagement after.
unknown (35:06):
Interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (35:06):
And the hypothesis is that again, like this agency
sort of begets agency.
And so they go, like, hey, I didthat, right?
I filled this thing out and itworked.
And now we are in a our familyis in a markedly better
situation.
Okay, what else can I do?
Like, who knows?
Maybe voting.
Um, maybe that, maybe thatworks.
(35:26):
Maybe I'm gonna engage that way,or maybe I'm gonna engage with
my, you know, block partyassociation.
It doesn't have to be some Mac,you know, really big scale.
Um, but I think there's adynamic there that when you show
parents, hey, this works andyour opinion really matters and
you can make a difference, Ithink that that that kind of
gets the flywheel going.
SPEAKER_00 (35:48):
I'd imagine the parent education orientation
piece is huge, right?
Just understanding thelandscape, understanding the
terminology.
I mean, I'm I as I look out myoffice window, I'm like 10 miles
from the border with Mexico.
(36:08):
And so a large percentage of ourfamilies um are uh our students
are first generation uh uh bornin the US or or uh immigrant
students, and they're comingfrom a landscape where there are
no charter schools at all inMexico, and the disparity in
(36:32):
public perception between publicand private in Mexico is vast.
Like it's like you just doeverything you can to escape
public.
Like that's a thing.
And so I've we've seen that overand over and over again in in
our messaging and communicationwith our community, is like
(36:55):
understanding that, yeah, wehave uniforms here, we have
these expectations, we havethese programs, and it doesn't
cost you anything.
We're free, we're public, youknow, and so talk talk about the
work that your organization doesin disseminating information
about school choice.
Because we talk about again, ifyou and I are making choice for
(37:16):
our kids, we're we're the we'rethe dudes logging in at 1201,
yeah, making choices, right?
Right.
Uh, because we we we're we'recloser, you know what you're
doing, and I'm closer to knowingwhat I'm doing, but we don't
represent everybody.
So, what does the parenteducation side look like?
SPEAKER_01 (37:32):
Yeah, it's it's um definitely something that we pay
a lot of attention to.
I was just with a group umearlier in the summer, and we
were talking about uh a new thisnew federal tax credit program
that it got passed as part ofthe the the one big bill, and
and it's got the potential toyou know give scholarships
(37:56):
around the country.
I mean, it it I think it couldbe really catalytic, but we were
talking about all right, whatmight it look like to tell
parents about this?
And um, one of the things that Inoted, I said, okay, when we're
talking to parents, keep in mindthat when you start talking to
someone about tax policy, it'slike automatic shutdown.
SPEAKER_00 (38:21):
Shades come down.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:22):
Yes, yes.
I said we cannot lead with, hey,let me tell you about this new
federal tax credit program, islike not exciting, right?
So I think um, and that's notjust spin either.
I mean, I think it's beingresponsive to what people are
paying attention to.
I think educators are oftenreally surprised and maybe even
(38:45):
frustrated to see these pollsthat come out almost annually.
Somebody will do a survey andthey'll say, what's most
important to parents whenselecting a school?
And, you know, top three, it'llbe like safety, transportation,
right?
Then maybe number three isacademics, right?
(39:07):
Right.
But it's often really, reallyfrustrating because you know,
educators, you didn't go toyears of schooling to be a
classroom teacher so that youcould just have like safety as
your highest priority.
You you actually want to teachcontent.
But again, I think we've got tobe responsive to what parents
want because of course parentswant to safe school.
(39:29):
Um, and so so too with theseprograms, we try to really talk
about um or or identify what'simportant to families.
Some of that's gonna becontextual based on what's
happening.
I mean, for instance, um in inmy city, a lot of people don't
know this, but Nashville has areally large immigrant and
(39:51):
refugee population.
So when we started one of ourschools, um, one of the rocket
ship schools, we had a largeEgyptian population, student
population, who spoke Arabic, abig Somali population, so
they're speaking Somali, andthen we had a Spanish-speaking
(40:13):
population, but you had severalum mostly Central American
countries.
So what did we do?
We had to have people on staffwho spoke those languages so
that we could communicate withum with the with folks in the
community, and that's somethingthat I think we were early on,
you know, we were early to anddistrict schools weren't um as
(40:37):
responsive, and I think thatgoes a long way.
So yeah, it's kind of meetingfamilies where they're at.
SPEAKER_00 (40:42):
Like any changes within a system, then while as
you referenced earlier, theoptions in education are
incredibly varied compared towhere they were maybe 20 or 30
years ago, even.
But this is a public educationin in the United States is well
(41:03):
over a hundred years old, andfor most of that, it was a
fairly uh stayed and and and uhunchanging or very change
resistant.
I think it's safe to say thatpublic education continues to be
change resistant.
I'm sure that you see attacksagainst concept of school
choice.
You know, in the chartermovement in a state like
(41:24):
California, uh we face uhlegislative attacks every year.
I that's one reason we are we'repart of membership
organizations.
Um, I'm sure you see this in inyour home state as well as work
around the country in variousways.
What gets you up every morningto continue this work?
(41:46):
I mean, this is work that's notjust a straight line, easy uh
movement ahead, right?
There are a lot of there's a lotof headwinds against you, uh,
depending on where you where inthe country you're working and
who you're talking to.
Like this is there's a lot ofthis that's thankless too.
How do you as an individual staymotivated and positive and and
(42:10):
calm?
Um, and again, I thank you foryour calm presence.
Um, I I sense that it comesthrough the screen, and I know
it's gonna come through in theaudio as well.
But what what keeps you going?
SPEAKER_01 (42:21):
Well, I think some of that calm is just as as you
know, has uh increased with age.
Um because I I don't know thatthat would have been the case.
I think 20 years ago I'd havebeen like, burn it down, you
know.
Um and and listen, I think ittakes some of that sometimes
because there are educationalsituations for kids still in the
(42:45):
US where we should absolutelydisrupt that system because it's
failing kids.
I mean, I think about a citylike Baltimore.
Um I've got a colleague who's upthere, and uh there were there
were like less than a dozenactual high school students
(43:07):
proficient in math, notpercentage.
Um you know, those sorts ofthings are um, I mean, I think
it's in it's in injustice tograduate kids and matriculate
kids, give them a diploma, um,and you're really just selling
them kind of a bag of beans thatsays, oh yeah, that you'll be
(43:29):
fine.
You'll be fine out there.
No, you won't.
Um, so I think that's gottastill motivate us.
What how animated we get aboutit is uh is another uh question
that's maybe one of temperance.
Um but but yeah, I mean I Iguess I just know personally and
have seen professionally in somany different schools, whether
(43:50):
I was affiliated with theschools or just touring other
great schools.
I I I believe in the power ofeducation.
I believe that if we're gonnahave meaningful and actionable
like civil discourse in the USabout any number of other
important issues, I think we'vegot to um have some shared
(44:15):
knowledge.
Um I just saw on on social mediathe other day somebody that I
went to high school with.
I won't I won't name them, butum posed a question about the
moon landing.
And I mean, there were like 37comments.
(44:35):
There were so many comments thatit surprised me, and so I
clicked comments, and there werelike 37 comments where 90% of
them said, nah, that didn'thappen.
SPEAKER_00 (44:45):
It was a studio in Burbank or something.
SPEAKER_01 (44:47):
Yeah, it was a studio, and I was just like, oh
my goodness, great.
So in some ways, like whatmotivates me, that kind of thing
motivates me too, right?
Because I think um we should bewe should be proud of the like
intellectual and scientific andacademic advancements that we've
been able to make.
(45:07):
And I don't think, I mean, wetalked about faith earlier.
I don't think those things areat odds with faith.
Um, I think we've been given youknow these abilities and and
frankly, um, how do you even uhcome to a more defined faith?
Well, you read.
Right.
I mean, any faith tradition hasgot like texts that you've got
(45:29):
to actually study.
Um, so I think we've got to armpeople with the skills to be um
discerning citizens.
And education is just a part ofthat.
And now I say with with my kids,you know, I'm like, all right,
we're what are they gonna be?
Who are they gonna be?
And um, and education is such abig part of that.
SPEAKER_00 (45:50):
Well, you've been very generous with your time and
and your wisdom and your yourperspective.
I really appreciate that.
But I have one last question foryou, but before we get there, is
there anything that we haven'tcovered um that you you wish to
add to this conversation aboutyour work, about your
perspective, something that Imight have overlooked?
SPEAKER_01 (46:12):
Well, thanks for asking that.
Um, and I've enjoyed ourconversation too.
I mean, I think we I mentionedit, I touched on it briefly, but
I would definitely encouragefolks to keep an eye out for
that uh very unsexy soundingfederal tax credit program.
SPEAKER_00 (46:28):
Uh everyone go on the IRS website right now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (46:32):
Yeah.
That I mean, that won't startfor a little while.
It's probably not uh it doesn'tcome into effect until 2027.
So, you know, maybe we can bumpthis up.
SPEAKER_00 (46:43):
What is it?
What is it?
Just uh what's the reader'sdigest version of that?
SPEAKER_01 (46:46):
Yeah, readers digest is that um uh every taxpayer
with you know, every federaltaxpayer, which is all of us,
right, who work, um, or even ifyou don't work, you can be a
federal taxpayer.
Um, every federal taxpayer cancontribute seventeen hundred
dollars, get a get adollar-for-dollar write-off.
(47:10):
So if you have tax liability,instead of cutting a check to
the government, you can putseventeen hundred dollars into a
scholarship grantingorganization.
SPEAKER_00 (47:18):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (47:19):
And then the scholar, those scholarship orgs
can give out scholarships tokids in private, charter,
public, school, even homeschoolin some states, um, that can be
used for tuition, for uhmaterials, for AP classes or
college coursework or special edservices.
(47:41):
Um and so it's got a lot ofability.
And the the scholarships are not$1,700.
The scholarships can be morethan that.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (47:48):
I was gonna ask you that.
The$17 is just the ceiling onthe individual taxpayers'
donation limit to that.
SPEAKER_01 (47:57):
Correct.
And and this is so and this isnot a donation.
So, you know, normally, right,if I if I gave a donation to
your charter school, I might getlike half or something in half
or thirty, thirty, forty percentof something like that of the
credit.
This is dollar for dollar.
SPEAKER_00 (48:13):
Dollar for dollar.
SPEAKER_01 (48:14):
Yeah, 100% credit, um, which is a pretty big deal.
And so um, yeah, this could thiscould be really catalytic, I
think, for a lot of families,and um you'll those will start
to come online in 2027.
But here's the rub um governorshave to opt in.
(48:36):
And so there's gonna be a lot ofpressure.
I know that there's a a meetingjust last week of Democratic
governors, and they're alreadytalking about hey, on the one
hand, they might not have beenfans of the big bill.
On the other hand, this is a lotof money is at stake if they
(48:56):
don't participate.
A lot of money could be cominginto their state for students.
SPEAKER_00 (49:00):
I'm wondering where organized labor is going to come
down around this.
SPEAKER_01 (49:05):
I don't know.
It's uh it it's hard to say.
Here's the here's the deal.
In a state like yours, likeCalifornia, even if your
governor elects to notparticipate, right?
Your taxpayers can participate.
Interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (49:21):
So all of your tax, right?
SPEAKER_01 (49:24):
And so if I'm a if I'm your governor in California,
I'm like, why would I want toyou're basically just sending
checks to people in otherstates?
Why would you do that?
Um if you're yeah, if you're mystate, like and and Kentucky's
not participating, like we'rehappy to run TV ads to the
people in targeting the peoplein Kentucky saying, hey, by the
(49:47):
way, you're gonna do your taxeswhen you do them.
Why don't you contribute toeducation?
Interesting.
Yeah, so that'll be superinteresting.
That's something to watch.
SPEAKER_00 (49:58):
Thank you for thank you for that.
I definitely will keep an eyeout for that.
Um, okay, the last question ofthis conversation, and hopefully
you and I, this isn't the lasttime we have a conversation.
Yeah, because that would be agood idea.
SPEAKER_01 (50:10):
I would love to link up again.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (50:12):
Um so this is a hypothetical, it's a thought
experiment.
You're given the opportunity todesign a billboard on the side
of uh freeway or your localhighway or throughway, whatever
they're called in in Nashville,in California, obviously would
be a freeway.
Um what does your billboard sayabout your work about what you
(50:37):
believe in?
What message do you send to theworld?
SPEAKER_01 (50:44):
That's really good.
Really good question.
Um The idea that my face wouldbe on a billboard makes me very
nervous.
SPEAKER_00 (50:55):
It doesn't have to be your face.
SPEAKER_01 (50:57):
Good.
Like, I don't know.
I yeah.
More like a face made for radio.
Um, what would it say?
I think um I think boy, this isgonna be too long, maybe, for
billboards.
(51:18):
You can have two.
The fonts, yeah, it has some ofthose, yeah, those repeating
ones, whatever.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's on a couple different exitswhen you're yeah.
Um I think it would saysomething like uh education
colon, the surest path to theAmerican dream.
(51:41):
I think something like that.
I think that's right.
I think I I I believe that.
I think it's um there's not asurer way to climb the ladder uh
for you and for your family, andum and there's so many other
benefits that come along withit, right?
The the I mean you see thedignity that comes um when kids
(52:07):
show you their work that they'veworked on, even if it's not
perfect.
Um that's that's a real value,and that comes through the
educative process.
And um those lessons carry out,and I think it it has the
ability to continue to set usapart as a nation.
Um, so yeah, I think education,surest path to the American
(52:31):
tree.
SPEAKER_00 (52:33):
Thanks for joining us on the Hangout Podcast.
You can send us an email atpodcastinfo at proton.me.
Many thanks to my daughter Mayafor editing this episode.
I'd also like to underline thatthis podcast is entirely
separate from my day job.
And as such, all opinionsexpressed herein are mine and
(52:54):
mine alone.
Thanks for coming on in andhanging out.
Welcome to the Hang Out Podcast.
I'm your host, David Sheretta.
Come on in and hang out.
In today's conversation, I satdown with Shaka Mitchell.
Shaka was raised on Long Islandand is now based in Nashville,
(00:25):
where he is an education leaderand attorney.
His career spans DC policy,leading charter school growth in
Tennessee, and now advancing thecause of school choice at the
American Federation forChildren.
In this conversation, we diginto the real menu of choice in
(00:47):
the education sector from publiccharters to magnets to vouchers,
homeschooling, clarifying mythsalong the way, covering the
topics of equity, access, parentagency, and how policy meets the
everyday life of a school and aschool day.
(01:07):
I thoroughly enjoyed thisconversation with Shaka Mitchell
and his deep reflection,experience, and thinking around
education in America.
I'm sure you'll enjoy thisepisode as well.
Welcome, Shaka.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday from Nashville and for
(01:28):
having this conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (01:29):
Yeah, thanks, David.
It's really good to be on withyou, and I'm looking forward to
our conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (01:34):
I thought we could start with your origin story,
your background, where you comefrom, and because ultimately
that dictates who you are todayin the world.
SPEAKER_01 (01:47):
Yeah, sure.
Yeah, happy to talk a little bitabout that.
And um I'll try to keep it briefbecause it's probably the least
exciting part of ourconversation.
Um but I was born and raised umon Long Island in New York.
And um I I guess my that kind oforigin story is also a little
(02:07):
bit of the the professionalorigin story, too, because um
those the two things are soclosely linked.
Um where I lived on Long Island,it was in a very much a working
class neighborhood, um, workingclass and lower income
neighborhood uh in in NassauCounty, Hempstead.
(02:30):
And the schools that we wouldhave been set to attend were
low-performing academically, um,unsafe.
Um, there's all these storiesabout Hempstead High School, and
anybody who's from Long Islandwould might know some of these
stories about Hempstead HighSchool where just crazy things
(02:50):
were happening, like kidssetting fire to the carpets and
um just you know, stuff that'sthat goes beyond shenanigans and
uh was really became unsafe.
And anyway, so you know, my momwas looking for other options.
So I went to the one of thelocal Catholic schools, and you
(03:10):
know, with help with help fromthe diocese, and um, and this
was not like some Tony uhprivate school with lots of
acreage and whatnot.
It was a you know a smallschool.
Um we had recessed most of thetime in the you know, in the
parking lot that became the buslot at the end of the day, and
(03:32):
it's a lot of you know um blackand Latino kids.
Um and I would say it made allthe difference, right?
Like that um being in thatsetting, I think made a
tremendous difference uh for thestudents who were there, for me
and my siblings who would alsoattend there.
(03:54):
And then we ended up moving andwe moved from New York to um
outside Atlanta to actuallyoutside Marietta to Powder
Springs, Georgia.
So you talk about a big culturalshift.
We moved from Long Island toMarietta or to Powder Springs,
and uh and that's where I wentto high school.
(04:14):
I went to a big public highschool there.
But you know, we went down therebecause it was like cost of
living was so much cheaper.
This is what the uh mid early tomid-90s.
Um, yeah, cost of living supercheap.
So you go down there and and I Ireally thought that like we had
arrived.
You know, we lived in a housethat was a new construction
(04:36):
house in a cul-de-sac.
I was like, oh my gosh, this isbasically like we're rich.
We made it.
And um, and you know, and it's aand it's a lovely home.
My parents still live there.
Um, but I went there and uh mymy siblings attended those
schools, yeah, and then um wentto went to college in Nashville,
(04:58):
which is where I live currently,did law school in North
Carolina, and was in DC workingfor a little while in the
education sector, and uh that'swhere um you know my wife and I
got married while we were in DCand then eventually moved back
to Nashville, where I live.
And I've got three girls, threeschool-age daughters who um, you
(05:22):
know, this very day will have uhit's the first pep rally of the
year.
So we're hitting fall, you know,the fall school year.
So that's kind of the story.
SPEAKER_00 (05:29):
What what role has faith played in in your journey?
You went to a Catholic school.
Was that choice made?
I mean, you mentioned the kindof the qualitative change from
from the sounds like the whatwas that Michelle Pfeiffer
movie, the dangerous minds orsomething, where you have that
stereotypical the teacher turnstheir back and stuff starts
(05:50):
flying Nashville County.
SPEAKER_01 (05:52):
Or like lean on me.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:54):
Yeah, exactly.
That kind of a thing.
Um, did did the faith part playany role at Catholic school and
beyond?
SPEAKER_01 (06:01):
Yeah, I I think so.
It um well, certainly it itplayed a role.
I mean, going to Catholicschool, um, I mean, I I just
took for granted the fact thatwe had religion as a class, like
we had math, you know, like wehad history.
I mean, it was just a class thatwe that we had.
And um first Friday of themonth, we marched across the
(06:25):
parking lot to mass.
And um, yeah, it was just a apart of the of the culture for
sure.
Um, that being said, not everykid who goes to Catholic school
is Catholic, right?
I think that that's the case forum for probably most uh
faith-based schools.
(06:47):
Um, but I think it did have abig influence in part.
I would I I believe, and I don'tknow if we want to jump right
into this, but um I think thatfor faith-based schools it's
actually easier to have a clearmission.
Um because if your mission issomething like let's say your
(07:11):
mission is something that isindeed tied to the Bible, right?
Tied to scripture, tied to yourthe the texts that are the
tenets of your faith, likethat's not changing.
As compared to if you are aconventional public school, your
mission fluctuates with um everyschool board election,
(07:34):
potentially, right?
And so you can sort of get getwhipsawed around a little bit in
terms of like, oh, this yearwe're focused on STEM.
Two years from now, we'refocused on reading
interventions.
You know, five years from nowwe're gonna be focused on
high-dose tutoring and uh socialprogramming and you know, after
school stuff, as compared to, Ithink I it's my belief, as
(07:59):
compared to many faith-basedschools, I think, can just sort
of say, like the mission ofJesuit schools, for instance,
hasn't really changed since likethe 1600s.
Um now, the other thingschanged.
There's some some pedagogicalthings, but yeah, I think it
definitely had had an impact onon sort of values and culture.
(08:21):
And I would say it alsopersonally was really impactful
um because I knew lots of thosestories.
I knew lots of those like youknow, Bible stories, and then
later in life when when I wouldsay I really came to faith and
embraced um uh Christianity, I Isort of had this had this
(08:42):
baseline of knowledge already,because I I had you know gone to
school for nine years readingthese stories and um that I knew
as kind of historical, but lateron came to came to really um
embrace.
SPEAKER_00 (08:57):
So you went to law school in North Carolina, uh
then you you started to work inDC, you said, and so how does
law school lead to work ineducation to then the work you
do today?
I know there's a a full careerthere, um, or you know, you're
you're still a young man, butit's a lot of work that you've
(09:19):
done.
So walk us through kind of thedifferent signposts along the
way um in that career.
SPEAKER_01 (09:26):
Yeah.
So I have a lot of students andum like college students who
will ask me, um, hey, what doyou think about law school?
Because I'm thinking about it.
What what advice would you give?
And um one of the first things Itell them is law school is a
great place to go if you want tobe a lawyer.
(09:49):
And I know that sounds like youknow, there's nothing profound
about that, but I didn't reallyhave anyone who told me that.
So I didn't know any lawyerswhen I went to law school.
You know, I was a um my parentsuh didn't graduate college, I
didn't have a whole lot of folksin my in my network, um, small
(10:12):
as it was, that had that kind ofprofessional experience.
So I kind of went to law schoolthinking, oh, well, I think
eventually I want to work onlaws, like legislation, like
legislation, policy, justice,like big issues, macro stuff.
And I thought, well, what do youdo?
(10:33):
Where do you go?
Uh after you studied politicalscience, I guess you go to law
school.
And um, I didn't really realizethat a lot of people go to law
school so that they can do likereal estate transactions and you
know, um corporate financestuff.
And that's and that's greatstuff, and somebody's got to do
that.
But I knew from the jump thatthat was not what I was most
interested in.
(10:53):
So um I went because I was muchmore interested in um in in
policy, in shaping law andlegislation later on, um, much
more interested inconstitutional questions than I
was the smaller contractualissues or procedural issues.
(11:14):
And so um, which, you know, madethe first year of law school
really challenging becauseyou've got to get through all
that um baseline stuff beforeyou start asking these deeper
questions.
But I do think it it was still agreat way to kind of um sharpen
my writing and my researchskills and kind of critical
(11:37):
thinking skills.
I think law school is stillreally, really good for that.
And so so I did that and thenwas like, yeah, you know, I
think education was just kind ofthe passion for me.
I just thought, man, if we geteducation right, how many other
things downstream will improve?
You know, if we get educationright, think, you know, K-12
education, will we have betterhealth outcomes?
(11:59):
I think so.
Will we have better um outcomesin the criminal justice, you
know, sort of system?
I I think we will.
Um, will we have better economicoutcomes?
Yes.
And so to me, education was justwas something close to like a
first principle.
Like, let's work on that andthen um reap some benefits later
(12:22):
on.
SPEAKER_00 (12:24):
So, what was your first step in in moving into the
education realm?
SPEAKER_01 (12:29):
Yeah, my first step was um going to DC, and I worked
at a place called the Center forEducation Reform, which was a
um, I mean, as the nameindicates, kind of an
all-encompassing uh ed reformpolicy shop.
And uh, and I'll say this, itwas a really good time for me to
(12:50):
get to DC.
So that's this is 2004, and asyou'll remember, um, No Child
Left Behind uh Act was passed in2001.
And so by 2004, this is aboutthe time when the teeth of that
law were starting to kind ofcome into effect.
You know, people sort of forgetand and maybe begrudge that law
(13:14):
a little bit, but you know,prior to that law, like we
didn't have good data.
You know, at the at the schoollevel, we didn't have good data,
certainly for like subgroupswithin schools.
It was like, you know, we'd say,is that a good school?
And people say, Oh, yes, that'san A, an A school.
How do you know?
Well, the kids are happy andthey have a baseball field.
Okay, that's not great data,right?
(13:37):
Um, so No Child Left Behindpasses, and all of a sudden, for
the first time across thecountry, you had schools that
were deemed failing schools.
And then the question is, well,what do we do?
And so that's when I was cominginto you know my career in this
(13:57):
education reform space.
So it was a really good timebecause um as an answer to the
question, what do we do aboutthese schools?
People were thinking about umcharter schools and district to
charter conversions, people werethinking about vouchers and
private choice programs, teacherperformance pay, just all sorts
(14:19):
of different things.
And so I think it was a reallyexciting time for me to enter
that space.
And um, yeah, really got my eyesopen to a lot of things at the
at that point at the federal andkind of state level.
SPEAKER_00 (14:36):
So you you work there, and then talk to us about
your transition into morespecifically the charter school
sector, um, the work you've doneum specifically, and then your
work your work around schoolchoice writ large.
SPEAKER_01 (14:55):
Sure.
Sure.
So, you know, I um I think myfirst exposure to charter
schools was when I was in DC,you know, I started meeting um
founders of of various charterschools.
DC has a large charter school uhuh community.
I mean, I think something like50% of DC schools now are
(15:16):
charters.
And and even back then it was ait was a higher percentage than
other places, most other placesin the country.
So I had a chance to tourschools for the first time and
see some of these innovativepractices that were happening.
I then went and worked for a aconstitutional firm where we
represented families who werelooking to participate in choice
(15:39):
programs.
Um but uh we got married, mywife Stephanie and I got
married, and knew pretty quicklythat we did not want to stay in
DC.
So as we looked at other places,um Nashville was a was kind of
on our short list, and um I Iknew that I still wanted to
(16:04):
press forward on education workand education policy, and I was
doing some policy work when Ifirst came to Nashville.
And for me, the question wasless about what educational
system, charter, private, etc.,and more about all right, what's
at the tip of the spear?
(16:25):
And at that time in Tennessee,it was charters.
You know, we didn't have aprivate choice program.
We had charters, and we had a uma new thing that was about to
start called the AchievementSchool District.
And so I got connected withsomeone that I had met some
years earlier, um, named JeremyKane.
(16:45):
He had started a school inNashville called Lead uh Public
Schools.
And he said, Hey, we're about toexpand.
And, you know, as you know,David, he said, I don't know
what we're gonna need next, butwe're gonna need we're gonna
need some people who can dig inand who are not afraid to work
(17:05):
and who can help and who canthink in a few different
domains.
And I was like, sure, let's doit.
And so um when I started atlead, we had just opened our
second school, which was thefirst conversion charter in the
state.
And then we opened two moreschools after that in in
(17:26):
successive years.
We opened the first AchievementSchool District School.
So this is a bottom 5% school inthe district that converted to a
charter.
Um, and then after that, I wentand I I became the first uh
regional director here inTennessee for Rocket Chip.
And so we opened three schoolsum with Rocket Ship.
(17:49):
And so, yeah, I got to I got tosee firsthand both the school
day, right?
Because I was, you know,officing out of a out of a
middle school or an elementaryschool.
And so um was reallyexperiencing the the school in a
and the school community in away that I hadn't when I was in
(18:10):
DC, right?
That's kind of it at arm'slength, and I think it actually
does a disservice if policypeople never get in a school
building.
I think it's um they can you'renecessarily disconnected.
So it was super helpful um forme to just be on the ground and
go, oh, okay, here's what theday looks like.
(18:31):
Here's the cycle, the rhythm ofa school year, and how that
informs your policy.
And so um yeah, it was really,really valuable.
SPEAKER_00 (18:42):
So the concept of school choice is an interesting
and nuanced one, and I thinkoften misunderstood.
Uh you you you know, in aminute, I'll get you can give
your perspective on that.
But from my perspective, it'soften misunderstood.
Having worked now for over threedecades in charter schools, I
(19:03):
every day run into people whomistakenly think charter schools
are private, mistakenly thinkthat students have to take a an
exam or a test, they have totest in.
Yeah.
They've seen waiting forSuperman, and they, you know,
they have some perceptions aboutthat.
Um, then we have at certainlywith this most recent iteration
(19:27):
of Donald Trump, but even theprevious iteration of Donald
Trump, vouchers started to gainlegs as a as an option.
I know now several dozen stateshave some semblance of a voucher
or voucher-esque um program.
Uh, can you kind of take usthrough the the menu of options
(19:48):
that if of things that you'rethinking about when you talk
about school choice?
Like from public, private,vouchers, charter, like how
should our listeners think aboutand navigate that?
Just the it's it's a big, it'sbig.
SPEAKER_01 (20:04):
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think you'reabsolutely right.
There's a lot of misconceptionsabout choice.
There it requires a good deal ofnuance.
And you know, to be fair, partof the reason is because the
educational environment uh looksso different today than it did
(20:29):
um you know 20 years ago,definitely 30, 40 years ago.
And now that's not the case inevery state, but in a lot of
states.
I mean, if you think about theeducational options that exist
in Washington, DC today, none ofthis, you couldn't even fathom
(20:49):
this ecosystem 25 years ago.
Um, because you've got a voucherthere, the DC Opportunity
Scholarship Program, you've gota you've got charter schools
that are thriving.
Um you now have district magnetschools, I believe.
So yeah, so what it what does itall mean?
(21:10):
I think kind of at at the core,um school choice or educational
choice or educational freedom,whatever the parlance is that
that you prefer, I think it hasto do with um who is best
positioned to make theeducational placement decision
(21:32):
for the child.
That's that's kind of the to methat's the um the most important
like unit, right?
Who's at the who is bestpositioned to make that
decision.
Um to say that a school districtis best positioned to make that
(21:54):
decision, I think kind of reallylike you've got a you've gotta
stretch reality um to to saythat with a straight face,
because you know, I don't knowhow big the district is in San
Diego.
Here in Nashville, where I live,our district now, I mean, you've
got about a hundred thousandkids, a hundred and ten thousand
(22:16):
school-age kids.
SPEAKER_00 (22:18):
Yeah, that's what San Diego Unified is about.
SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's a that's a lot ofkids.
I I only have three in myfamily.
And um and it's clear that mythree kids uh have you know
different learning styles, theyare drawn to different subjects,
(22:41):
right?
Um if you're a family and someof your kids have exceptional
needs, then you know that nowyou're that's another layer
you've got to put on top.
So so the question is, allright, you do that, and now you
multiply those differences timesan entire county or an entire
city.
How is one school board gonnamake decisions that are in the
(23:06):
best interest of every singlechild?
I just think it it's impossible.
And that's not because schoolboard members or school district
employees are bad people.
I just think it's it's like a anumbers thing.
It's a reality, right?
Um there's too many, there's toomany kids with too many needs to
(23:26):
do that, too many unique needs.
So the concept of school choiceis all right, well, let's give
some of the decision making thento our parents.
Um but what we're gonna do isper state law, because this is
the case in every state, everystate says that it's going to
pay for education.
(23:48):
But I think what um what doesn'thave to be the case is that it
doesn't mean that it's uh goingto both pay for and provide the
education, right?
So that's the that's thedifference.
And um it's separating those twothings so that we can say, yeah,
great.
Um let's let the the city ofNashville and the state of
(24:14):
Tennessee pay for education.
But we're gonna let mom and dadmake the decision about where
this child should go because umthey've got you know they've got
the most direct link and they'vegot real skin in the game in
terms of what what's gonna workbest for him.
That's I I think kind offundamentally what's there.
(24:34):
Now, policy-wise, yeah, youasked about like what are some
of the ranges, um, some of thedifferences in policies.
I mean, um, this kind of startedout, I'll try to hit it quickly,
but um you know, most peoplethink about um private choice as
just vouchers.
But I think again, if you thinkabout those the the pillars that
(24:57):
I mentioned, who pays for it andwho controls it, right?
Who who pays, who controls, andwho sort of provides the
education.
In um on one end of thespectrum, you've got say a a
district, and the district paysfor the education and it
provides the education, and theytell you where to go, right?
(25:18):
They say you're you live on 24,whatever, Poplar Street.
This is where you go to school,period.
So you don't have any any say inthe matter.
The other end of the spectrumwould be if would be say really
homeschool, and would be allright, family pays for it,
(25:39):
family provides it, they'regonna figure out what the what
the school day looks like.
That's at the other end.
Everything else is in the bigmiddle, right?
So you've got a charter schoolwhere, as you know, as as your
audience, most of your audiencewill know, a charter school, not
a private school.
Why?
Because the government stillpays, but now you have this
(26:03):
independent, usually nonprofitboard kind of making the
decisions about how to operateit.
And who makes the choice?
Well, parents make the choice.
They say, I want to go to thatcharter school because it's got
a STEM focus, or it's got, youknow, it's doing some cool
things with um English languagelearners or, you know, whatever
it is.
Down the way, then you mighthave a private school.
(26:26):
And again, private schools wouldbe private pay, private um uh
placement, but the school itselffigures that out.
Where a choice program comes inis we say, okay, we're gonna
take the money that would havegone to the public school, and
we're gonna let families carrythat to whatever option they
want.
And um and we're gonna againtrust that parents are the are
(26:52):
the closest ones to the enduser, and that is a student, and
so that they're gonna do what'sum in the best interest of
students.
SPEAKER_00 (27:01):
And thank you for that uh for that overview.
I think it's really helpful forfor the conversation and for
thinking about this.
One of the the knocks againstschool choice, the the the last
uh descriptor that you used, andI'm sure you've heard this all
often, is that that's all welland good to be able to take your
(27:24):
um allocation or allotment of Xamount of dollars to wherever
you want to go.
Um uh what happens if that's notenough to cover the cost of a
private setting?
That's one part of the question.
The other part of it is uh whathappens if we're dealing with a
family that just historically, Imean, assuming every set of
(27:47):
parents loves and cares fortheir kids and wants the best
for their kids, I think that's agood assumption place to start
with, a respectful place.
But the systemic um empowermentthat comes with this idea of
choice isn't just a defaultthing for people, right?
Like uh how do you think aboutum uh both empowering choice for
(28:15):
people who very likely havechoice in all elements of their
lives and exercise it freely?
Um, people like you and Isitting here now on this call,
and then also people who may noteven have ever had to make a
choice about education for theirkid and suddenly they're living
in a place where that's anoption.
I think about Texas, forexample, right?
(28:36):
Governor Abbott um pushed superhard, and I think it costs some
politicians their jobs in thelast um primaries, and suddenly
there's a there's a thing goingon in Texas.
But the question is like, isthat empowering everybody, or is
it a select few people like mewho might have had my kid in a
private school anyway, and nowI'm getting a$10,000 discount
(28:58):
for that?
Right.
Talk about kind of how you thinkthat through from an equity and
access standpoint.
SPEAKER_01 (29:05):
Yeah, great questions.
So your first question, what ifthe what if the the scholarship
or the voucher or the educationsavings account, whatever uh
whatever form it takes.
SPEAKER_00 (29:17):
Tax break, whatever it is, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:18):
Yeah, what if it's what if it's not enough?
So um one, these things areincreasing.
I mean, at at AmericanFederation for Children, where I
work, we we always push for likea minimum of 70% of the per
pupil allocation to be part ofone of these scholarships.
(29:38):
In Texas, this new law that youreferenced, so it just passed in
May of uh 2025.
It's gonna be about$10,000 perper student.
Like 10 grand that'll spend, youknow?
Um, and here's what what I wouldsay about what if it's not
enough?
Because you're absolutely rightthat there are schools with
(29:59):
tuition.
That are much higher than that.
But what I think a lot of folksfail to realize is what happens
when you inject capital intothis ecosystem.
So it does a few things.
One, it allows it actuallyallows philanthropic dollars and
(30:24):
scholarships, school-basedscholarships, to go farther.
Because schools are not going tostop raising money.
You can believe that.
Schools are going to keepraising money because people get
a tax break when they contributeto a school, typically, to a
scholarship fund.
(30:44):
So schools are going to continueto raise money.
Now what you're doing is you'reallowing a school's financial
aid to go further and reach morekids.
And I've seen that firsthand inNashville, where a school told
me that they had, they basicallyhad one scholarship that they
could give.
(31:06):
They had the equivalent of$14,000 or$15,000 that they
could give.
They had two girls from the sameschool who applied, and they
were like, man, these girls aregreat.
We want them both to attend.
Neither one of them can affordit.
If those girls had the$7,000ESA, then the school could split
(31:31):
that financial aid and broughtboth girls and not have to make
that awful choice between one orthe other.
So it allows it to go further.
Parents will figure figure itout and will and are savvy
(31:53):
enough to um to come up with alittle extra.
That's a lot of money.
(32:33):
And again, at AFC, we think it'sreally important to prioritize
lower-income families in theseprograms.
And so you can do that in anumber of ways.
You can, for instance, you canreserve some seats or some
scholarships for low-incomefamilies.
That's one way to do it.
You can give priority accessduring the application process,
(32:57):
right?
Because we know that wealthy,politically savvy families are
going to log in and apply forour program on like minute one.
Right.
So we think if there are ways toopen up the application process
first to families whohistorically have lacked that
(33:17):
kind of access, that that's a away to kind of balance the
scales a little bit.
So there's some things that youcan do from a policy standpoint
that um that keep that thatthose communities kind of um as
a as a focal point.
And then the last thing I wouldsay is I really do think that um
(33:40):
that choice begets choice.
And maybe a corollary to that isthat agency begets agency.
And what I mean there is that umI don't think it should be
surprising.
You you I bet you've heard this,David.
I bet you've heard um colleaguesat other schools, especially
(34:02):
public schools, talk about, oh,we don't have, we you know, we
can't get enough parents out forthis parent night, or there's
not enough of the right kind ofparent engagement.
Um, and I would say is, well,how responsive have you been to
parents?
Because if you're a school thathas a history of being
(34:23):
unresponsive to parents, whywould you expect parents to keep
coming out?
I wouldn't do that, right?
If I was if I kept makingcomments, dropping dropping
notes in the comment box andthey went unanswered, I would
stop dropping comments in thebox.
And I would just ignore it andgo, well, I guess we can't fix
it.
I guess it is what it is.
The flip side of that is whenum, and there's a guy out of
(34:45):
University of Arkansas that'sdone some work on this, uh,
Patrick Wolfe.
Um, when families participate ina choice program and they choose
a school and it works for them,there's actually some indicators
that those families have highercivic engagement after.
unknown (35:06):
Interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (35:06):
And the hypothesis is that again, like this agency
sort of begets agency.
And so they go, like, hey, I didthat, right?
I filled this thing out and itworked.
And now we are in a our familyis in a markedly better
situation.
Okay, what else can I do?
Like, who knows?
Maybe voting.
Um, maybe that, maybe thatworks.
(35:26):
Maybe I'm gonna engage that way,or maybe I'm gonna engage with
my, you know, block partyassociation.
It doesn't have to be some Mac,you know, really big scale.
Um, but I think there's adynamic there that when you show
parents, hey, this works andyour opinion really matters and
you can make a difference, Ithink that that that kind of
gets the flywheel going.
SPEAKER_00 (35:48):
I'd imagine the parent education orientation
piece is huge, right?
Just understanding thelandscape, understanding the
terminology.
I mean, I'm I as I look out myoffice window, I'm like 10 miles
from the border with Mexico.
(36:08):
And so a large percentage of ourfamilies um are uh our students
are first generation uh uh bornin the US or or uh immigrant
students, and they're comingfrom a landscape where there are
no charter schools at all inMexico, and the disparity in
(36:32):
public perception between publicand private in Mexico is vast.
Like it's like you just doeverything you can to escape
public.
Like that's a thing.
And so I've we've seen that overand over and over again in in
our messaging and communicationwith our community, is like
(36:55):
understanding that, yeah, wehave uniforms here, we have
these expectations, we havethese programs, and it doesn't
cost you anything.
We're free, we're public, youknow, and so talk talk about the
work that your organization doesin disseminating information
about school choice.
Because we talk about again, ifyou and I are making choice for
(37:16):
our kids, we're we're the we'rethe dudes logging in at 1201,
yeah, making choices, right?
Right.
Uh, because we we we're we'recloser, you know what you're
doing, and I'm closer to knowingwhat I'm doing, but we don't
represent everybody.
So, what does the parenteducation side look like?
SPEAKER_01 (37:32):
Yeah, it's it's um definitely something that we pay
a lot of attention to.
I was just with a group umearlier in the summer, and we
were talking about uh a new thisnew federal tax credit program
that it got passed as part ofthe the the one big bill, and
and it's got the potential toyou know give scholarships
(37:56):
around the country.
I mean, it it I think it couldbe really catalytic, but we were
talking about all right, whatmight it look like to tell
parents about this?
And um, one of the things that Inoted, I said, okay, when we're
talking to parents, keep in mindthat when you start talking to
someone about tax policy, it'slike automatic shutdown.
SPEAKER_00 (38:21):
Shades come down.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:22):
Yes, yes.
I said we cannot lead with, hey,let me tell you about this new
federal tax credit program, islike not exciting, right?
So I think um, and that's notjust spin either.
I mean, I think it's beingresponsive to what people are
paying attention to.
I think educators are oftenreally surprised and maybe even
(38:45):
frustrated to see these pollsthat come out almost annually.
Somebody will do a survey andthey'll say, what's most
important to parents whenselecting a school?
And, you know, top three, it'llbe like safety, transportation,
right?
Then maybe number three isacademics, right?
(39:07):
Right.
But it's often really, reallyfrustrating because you know,
educators, you didn't go toyears of schooling to be a
classroom teacher so that youcould just have like safety as
your highest priority.
You you actually want to teachcontent.
But again, I think we've got tobe responsive to what parents
want because of course parentswant to safe school.
(39:29):
Um, and so so too with theseprograms, we try to really talk
about um or or identify what'simportant to families.
Some of that's gonna becontextual based on what's
happening.
I mean, for instance, um in inmy city, a lot of people don't
know this, but Nashville has areally large immigrant and
(39:51):
refugee population.
So when we started one of ourschools, um, one of the rocket
ship schools, we had a largeEgyptian population, student
population, who spoke Arabic, abig Somali population, so
they're speaking Somali, andthen we had a Spanish-speaking
(40:13):
population, but you had severalum mostly Central American
countries.
So what did we do?
We had to have people on staffwho spoke those languages so
that we could communicate withum with the with folks in the
community, and that's somethingthat I think we were early on,
you know, we were early to anddistrict schools weren't um as
(40:37):
responsive, and I think thatgoes a long way.
So yeah, it's kind of meetingfamilies where they're at.
SPEAKER_00 (40:42):
Like any changes within a system, then while as
you referenced earlier, theoptions in education are
incredibly varied compared towhere they were maybe 20 or 30
years ago, even.
But this is a public educationin in the United States is well
(41:03):
over a hundred years old, andfor most of that, it was a
fairly uh stayed and and and uhunchanging or very change
resistant.
I think it's safe to say thatpublic education continues to be
change resistant.
I'm sure that you see attacksagainst concept of school
choice.
You know, in the chartermovement in a state like
(41:24):
California, uh we face uhlegislative attacks every year.
I that's one reason we are we'repart of membership
organizations.
Um, I'm sure you see this in inyour home state as well as work
around the country in variousways.
What gets you up every morningto continue this work?
(41:46):
I mean, this is work that's notjust a straight line, easy uh
movement ahead, right?
There are a lot of there's a lotof headwinds against you, uh,
depending on where you where inthe country you're working and
who you're talking to.
Like this is there's a lot ofthis that's thankless too.
How do you as an individual staymotivated and positive and and
(42:10):
calm?
Um, and again, I thank you foryour calm presence.
Um, I I sense that it comesthrough the screen, and I know
it's gonna come through in theaudio as well.
But what what keeps you going?
SPEAKER_01 (42:21):
Well, I think some of that calm is just as as you
know, has uh increased with age.
Um because I I don't know thatthat would have been the case.
I think 20 years ago I'd havebeen like, burn it down, you
know.
Um and and listen, I think ittakes some of that sometimes
because there are educationalsituations for kids still in the
(42:45):
US where we should absolutelydisrupt that system because it's
failing kids.
I mean, I think about a citylike Baltimore.
Um I've got a colleague who's upthere, and uh there were there
were like less than a dozenactual high school students
(43:07):
proficient in math, notpercentage.
Um you know, those sorts ofthings are um, I mean, I think
it's in it's in injustice tograduate kids and matriculate
kids, give them a diploma, um,and you're really just selling
them kind of a bag of beans thatsays, oh yeah, that you'll be
(43:29):
fine.
You'll be fine out there.
No, you won't.
Um, so I think that's gottastill motivate us.
What how animated we get aboutit is uh is another uh question
that's maybe one of temperance.
Um but but yeah, I mean I Iguess I just know personally and
have seen professionally in somany different schools, whether
(43:50):
I was affiliated with theschools or just touring other
great schools.
I I I believe in the power ofeducation.
I believe that if we're gonnahave meaningful and actionable
like civil discourse in the USabout any number of other
important issues, I think we'vegot to um have some shared
(44:15):
knowledge.
Um I just saw on on social mediathe other day somebody that I
went to high school with.
I won't I won't name them, butum posed a question about the
moon landing.
And I mean, there were like 37comments.
(44:35):
There were so many comments thatit surprised me, and so I
clicked comments, and there werelike 37 comments where 90% of
them said, nah, that didn'thappen.
SPEAKER_00 (44:45):
It was a studio in Burbank or something.
SPEAKER_01 (44:47):
Yeah, it was a studio, and I was just like, oh
my goodness, great.
So in some ways, like whatmotivates me, that kind of thing
motivates me too, right?
Because I think um we should bewe should be proud of the like
intellectual and scientific andacademic advancements that we've
been able to make.
(45:07):
And I don't think, I mean, wetalked about faith earlier.
I don't think those things areat odds with faith.
Um, I think we've been given youknow these abilities and and
frankly, um, how do you even uhcome to a more defined faith?
Well, you read.
Right.
I mean, any faith tradition hasgot like texts that you've got
(45:29):
to actually study.
Um, so I think we've got to armpeople with the skills to be um
discerning citizens.
And education is just a part ofthat.
And now I say with with my kids,you know, I'm like, all right,
we're what are they gonna be?
Who are they gonna be?
And um, and education is such abig part of that.
SPEAKER_00 (45:50):
Well, you've been very generous with your time and
and your wisdom and your yourperspective.
I really appreciate that.
But I have one last question foryou, but before we get there, is
there anything that we haven'tcovered um that you you wish to
add to this conversation aboutyour work, about your
perspective, something that Imight have overlooked?
SPEAKER_01 (46:12):
Well, thanks for asking that.
Um, and I've enjoyed ourconversation too.
I mean, I think we I mentionedit, I touched on it briefly, but
I would definitely encouragefolks to keep an eye out for
that uh very unsexy soundingfederal tax credit program.
SPEAKER_00 (46:28):
Uh everyone go on the IRS website right now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (46:32):
Yeah.
That I mean, that won't startfor a little while.
It's probably not uh it doesn'tcome into effect until 2027.
So, you know, maybe we can bumpthis up.
SPEAKER_00 (46:43):
What is it?
What is it?
Just uh what's the reader'sdigest version of that?
SPEAKER_01 (46:46):
Yeah, readers digest is that um uh every taxpayer
with you know, every federaltaxpayer, which is all of us,
right, who work, um, or even ifyou don't work, you can be a
federal taxpayer.
Um, every federal taxpayer cancontribute seventeen hundred
dollars, get a get adollar-for-dollar write-off.
(47:10):
So if you have tax liability,instead of cutting a check to
the government, you can putseventeen hundred dollars into a
scholarship grantingorganization.
SPEAKER_00 (47:18):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (47:19):
And then the scholar, those scholarship orgs
can give out scholarships tokids in private, charter,
public, school, even homeschoolin some states, um, that can be
used for tuition, for uhmaterials, for AP classes or
college coursework or special edservices.
(47:41):
Um and so it's got a lot ofability.
And the the scholarships are not$1,700.
The scholarships can be morethan that.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (47:48):
I was gonna ask you that.
The$17 is just the ceiling onthe individual taxpayers'
donation limit to that.
SPEAKER_01 (47:57):
Correct.
And and this is so and this isnot a donation.
So, you know, normally, right,if I if I gave a donation to
your charter school, I might getlike half or something in half
or thirty, thirty, forty percentof something like that of the
credit.
This is dollar for dollar.
SPEAKER_00 (48:13):
Dollar for dollar.
SPEAKER_01 (48:14):
Yeah, 100% credit, um, which is a pretty big deal.
And so um, yeah, this could thiscould be really catalytic, I
think, for a lot of families,and um you'll those will start
to come online in 2027.
But here's the rub um governorshave to opt in.
(48:36):
And so there's gonna be a lot ofpressure.
I know that there's a a meetingjust last week of Democratic
governors, and they're alreadytalking about hey, on the one
hand, they might not have beenfans of the big bill.
On the other hand, this is a lotof money is at stake if they
(48:56):
don't participate.
A lot of money could be cominginto their state for students.
SPEAKER_00 (49:00):
I'm wondering where organized labor is going to come
down around this.
SPEAKER_01 (49:05):
I don't know.
It's uh it it's hard to say.
Here's the here's the deal.
In a state like yours, likeCalifornia, even if your
governor elects to notparticipate, right?
Your taxpayers can participate.
Interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (49:21):
So all of your tax, right?
SPEAKER_01 (49:24):
And so if I'm a if I'm your governor in California,
I'm like, why would I want toyou're basically just sending
checks to people in otherstates?
Why would you do that?
Um if you're yeah, if you're mystate, like and and Kentucky's
not participating, like we'rehappy to run TV ads to the
people in targeting the peoplein Kentucky saying, hey, by the
(49:47):
way, you're gonna do your taxeswhen you do them.
Why don't you contribute toeducation?
Interesting.
Yeah, so that'll be superinteresting.
That's something to watch.
SPEAKER_00 (49:58):
Thank you for thank you for that.
I definitely will keep an eyeout for that.
Um, okay, the last question ofthis conversation, and hopefully
you and I, this isn't the lasttime we have a conversation.
Yeah, because that would be agood idea.
SPEAKER_01 (50:10):
I would love to link up again.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (50:12):
Um so this is a hypothetical, it's a thought
experiment.
You're given the opportunity todesign a billboard on the side
of uh freeway or your localhighway or throughway, whatever
they're called in in Nashville,in California, obviously would
be a freeway.
Um what does your billboard sayabout your work about what you
(50:37):
believe in?
What message do you send to theworld?
SPEAKER_01 (50:44):
That's really good.
Really good question.
Um The idea that my face wouldbe on a billboard makes me very
nervous.
SPEAKER_00 (50:55):
It doesn't have to be your face.
SPEAKER_01 (50:57):
Good.
Like, I don't know.
I yeah.
More like a face made for radio.
Um, what would it say?
I think um I think boy, this isgonna be too long, maybe, for
billboards.
(51:18):
You can have two.
The fonts, yeah, it has some ofthose, yeah, those repeating
ones, whatever.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's on a couple different exitswhen you're yeah.
Um I think it would saysomething like uh education
colon, the surest path to theAmerican dream.
(51:41):
I think something like that.
I think that's right.
I think I I I believe that.
I think it's um there's not asurer way to climb the ladder uh
for you and for your family, andum and there's so many other
benefits that come along withit, right?
The the I mean you see thedignity that comes um when kids
(52:07):
show you their work that they'veworked on, even if it's not
perfect.
Um that's that's a real value,and that comes through the
educative process.
And um those lessons carry out,and I think it it has the
ability to continue to set usapart as a nation.
Um, so yeah, I think education,surest path to the American
(52:31):
tree.
SPEAKER_00 (52:33):
Thanks for joining us on the Hangout Podcast.
You can send us an email atpodcastinfo at proton.me.
Many thanks to my daughter Mayafor editing this episode.
I'd also like to underline thatthis podcast is entirely
separate from my day job.
And as such, all opinionsexpressed herein are mine and
(52:54):
mine alone.
Thanks for coming on in andhanging out.
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