#98: I Choose My Future: A Retired DEA Agent's Powerful Message

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Hangout Podcast.
I'm your host, david Shoretta.
We have conversations withinteresting and inspiring people
on this show, and Rocky Heroncertainly fits into both of
those categories that I've beenprivileged to have with Rocky.

(00:23):
Beginning in 2007, while stillan active DEA agent, rocky began
developing an intense drugprevention lecture for his own
three children and theirclassmates.
After he retired, he furtherdeveloped and expanded upon this
work and to date has presentedand shared with over 270,000

(00:51):
students in the United Statesand in 16 countries.
The program is called I Choosemy Future or Yo Elijo Mi Futuro,
and Rocky lectures in Englishand in Spanish, depending on the
audience, and I can attest tothe fact that it's an honest and

(01:12):
emotional presentation thatshows students, school staff and
parents the realities of drugabuse today and how those
realities impact the individual,the family, the school, the
community, the country and thebroader world in general.
You can find more informationabout Rocky at RockyHerroncom.

(01:34):
I hope you enjoy thisconversation as much as I did.
Welcome, rocky.
Thank you so much for comingback and joining me today for a
chat.
Hi, dave, I'm very happy to beback with you.
So I think it's been about ayear.
I was trying to go back andlook.

(01:54):
It's been about a year since wespoke the first time and that
we've been in text,communication et cetera.
But a lot's gone on in yourlife, in your work.
Maybe you can first give usjust a elevator pitch about what
you do and then from there talkabout what's happened in the

(02:18):
last year and where things areheaded in the future.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah.
So I am a retired DEA specialagent.
I spent 31 years of my lifechasing drug traffickers, mostly
here in San Diego and theborder with Tijuana, and six
years down in South America.
And in the middle of my careerI discovered two things had
happened.
I discovered that my daughtersweren't getting any organized
drug prevention in school, whichconfused me as a parent because
I just assumed it was happening.
And then OxyContin hit SanDiego.

(02:42):
This is about 2008.
And these beautiful kids I wasarresting for dealing OxyContin
were coming from our bestschools and our best communities
and our best families.
They weren't your traditionaldrug dealing population.
And on the way to jail, I'dasked these kids you know why'd
you think it was okay to take apill from a pharmacy, melt it
and breathe in the vapor?
And these kids all startedcrying and they said you know,
rocky?
No one warned me.
And at some point I realized,my God, we're actually not

(03:10):
warning our kids about whatdrugs will do to them.
And so I came up with a teachingprogram just for my daughters
and their classmates, neverexpecting it to go beyond that.
And four years ago, by the endof my DEA career, it was almost
everything I was doing and somepeople in DEA supported me.
Others did not.
But when I retired from DEA in2021, the San Diego County
Office of Education hired me andcreated a new position called
the Ambassador of Alcohol andOther Drugs.

(03:30):
So I spent half my year goinginto schools, clubs, churches,
community groups anywhere in SanDiego on behalf of the San
Diego County Office of Educationas their prevention ambassador,
and the other half of my time Ispend traveling.
I'm teaching a bunch in Mexiconow, as Mexico sadly becomes a
drug consuming country as well.
I'll be teaching in Thailand inDecember and I'm traveling

(03:53):
around the US teaching, and Istill remain baffled and
confused and angry and sad whyour country hasn't seen the need
to do what I'm doing at anational level.
You know I'm doing the best Ican.
I'm just one guy.
I'm certainly believing there'speople who can do it better
than I can, but what I'm shockedat is that nobody at the

(04:16):
national state or even the locallevel is seriously talking
about why are we not getting inthe front of every kid to warn
them about what drugs will do tothem in their lives?
Seriously talking about why arewe not getting in front of
every kid to warn them?

Speaker 1 (04:25):
about what drugs will do to them in their lives.
Why do you think that is?
Why do you think there's thislack of a comprehensive and
urgent approach?

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Well, I've heard opposition.
I mean the people would to.
I hear a lot of politicianssaying parents need to talk to
their kids and apparently thosepoliticians don't live in the
modern world where parentsaren't engaging their kids.
You as a school administratorhave a challenge in getting
parents to engage on anything Atleast that's my experience as I
travel and parents don't knowthe truth about what drugs are
today and they're not talking totheir kids in a meaningful way.

(04:55):
So school is really the onlyplace I believe we can access
the kids.
I think some schooladministrators fear that if they
have a drug prevention programcoming in their school, they're
somehow sending a message thatthey have a drug problem in
their school.
My belief on that is if you'rerunning a school in modern
America and you don't think youhave a drug problem, you should
probably go get another job,because this drug threat is

(05:17):
everywhere.
It's in every community, everydemographic.
And honestly I think sadlythere remains a large stigma in
the United States against theusers, that too many people in
modern America when they hearabout somebody suffering from
drugs, they in their mind justkind of unconsciously blame that
user, and I understand that,that inclination.

(05:37):
But I don't blame a 13 year oldin America today for not
understanding what drugs andalcohol will do to them, and my
job is to teach as many of thoselittle kids the truth.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
You know before they make the choices to change who
they are.
Do you think the punitiveapproach or the punitive
orientation that kind of gettough on drugs philosophy in
schools, do you think that has achilling effect on parents'

(06:10):
willingness and openness to talkto kids about these issues?
Like to give you a concreteexample from my daily experience
.
So many of the instances thatwe run into where a child is
involved with a substance, theparents immediately get
defensive.
They either say someone elsegave it to them or I don't come

(06:34):
from a family like that, or you,this isn't.
This didn't, actually didn'thappen.
My kid's not talking to youanymore.
In other words, it'soppositional rather than not
talking to you anymore.
In other words, it'soppositional rather than
thinking about a child with abrain that's not going to be
fully developed for another 10to 15 years and the need to
really educate and listen tothem.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
No, I think that I think what you just described is
happening all across society,where we don't hold ourselves
accountable, we don't hold ourchildren accountable in the way
we used to.
But my work is a littledifferent.
That specific instance where akid has been found to be using,
or suspected of using, thatkid's getting some directed
interventions.
My work is directed at all theother kids who aren't getting on

(07:16):
the radar, who may be using,maybe aren't using, or live in
an environment where everybodyaround them seems to be using
and we're not giving them theinformation they need to to make
their own, their own choices.
So it's, it's my, my work in mymind is true, you know, true,
primary prevention.
I want to, and I I view myaudiences of kids as as having

(07:37):
three components.
You know I've been to yourschool many times over the years
.
I can't count how many timesnow I've been in.
I'm very grateful for that.
But when I have 200 of yourkids in the assembly room here,
in my mind, 20 of those kids aregoody two-shoes, right that
they, for whatever reason theymay, have already made a choice

(07:57):
that they're never going to godown this road.
I made that choice when I was akid, for whatever reason, and I
think 20% of the kids are nevergoing to listen to anything.
Oh, I'm sorry, I think 10% ofthe kids, 10% of the kids are
the goody two-shoes and 10% ofthe kids are the I'm going to
have to learn the hard way.
They're just not going tolisten to anything that somebody
says.
So you get the bell curve Right, right.
Their environment is just soinundated with drugs.

(08:18):
They've invested in the culturethat supports drug use.
So, 10%, I'm not really worriedabout reaching 10% I'm not
going to reach.
My mission is to reach those80% and again, these are my
numbers, but the 80% in themiddle who I believe are
persuadable right, they'repersuadable and maybe I can pull
them back.
And I take these opportunitiesto reach your kids and every
school's kids extremelyseriously because I believe in

(08:43):
that school year.
My 60 to 90 minute pushback isthe only really strong, directed
message they're going to get ina year where the popular
culture and the world aroundthem and social media and their
friends is pushing them to usedrugs, to see drugs as
beneficial and positive to them,and that's why I bring such

(09:03):
intensity to my sessions,because in my mind, that's my
one shot to give these kidssomething to support them not
making the mistake that so manyother people have made.
And a second assessment I do ofyour kids in every school as
well, is I want to reach thekids who've never started using
drugs right.

(09:23):
I want them to stick with that,reduce initiation of drug usage
.
The kids in your population whoare dabbling or using drugs and
alcohol chronically already.
I want them to reconsider, pullback and definitely go no
further.
And I doubt that many of thekids who are using weed
currently, who hear mypresentations, will stop using
weed.
I'd like to think maybe somewill, but I'd like to believe

(09:45):
that some of them may never moveon to fentanyl or meth or some
of these other more hideousdrugs, and if that's the case,
that would be a win for me aswell.
And then there's a thirdpopulation of kids, the ones who
suffer as collateral damage,and you've witnessed this After
every assembly I do in yoursixth grade, seventh grade and
then eighth grade classgroupings.
Kids line up to come, cry to me, to get a hug from me, to share

(10:07):
with me terrible trauma thatthey're living from drug and
alcohol use around them, and Iget a moment to look at those
kids in the eye and say it's notyour fault.
You honor me for sharing thisand I hope you'll talk to
somebody else about this so youcan work through this and it
doesn't have to be your future.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
I witnessed that and have witnessed that on multiple
occasions and it's probably themost powerful thing I've seen as
the outcome of an assembly orpresentation in a long time To
get especially middle schoolkids.
They're not going to line upjust because you happen to be
the cool person who just did apresentation.
They're only going to line upand come and want to meet you
and give you a hug or shake yourhand if you touch something

(10:51):
inside of them, and I see it onLinkedIn and your videos that
you post and everything.
This is a universal reaction.
It's not just our kids here,our kids here.
Um, you know, you and I, beforehitting record, we're talking
about some of the resistance youface kind of in the, in the, in

(11:12):
the industry or in in educationin general.
Um, uh, because of the thismodel, right, the assembly based
kind.
I don't know if it gets a badrap from the old days of DARE,
the DARE kind of back in the day, which I guess there was some
data that showed that thatactually might have increased

(11:35):
usage.
I don't know if that's reallytrue, but that was kind of the
word on the street was like ah,if you do, dare was shown to be
not effective, and so it waskind of totally scrapped.
Where do you think theresistance comes from?

Speaker 2 (11:45):
Well, no, dare was rejected after 15 or 20 years
and social scientists attemptedto study it and they concluded
that they couldn't prove itworked.
Ergo, it didn't work.
And then they made somesuggestions that maybe it
increased drug usage, which Ithink is absurd.
I really challenge that that itincreased drug usage.
Do you think it was just reallyhard to measure that it
increased drug usage?

(12:05):
Do you think it was just reallyhard to measure?
Well, I think, yes.
I think we have gotten to aplace in American society where
we believe we can measure thingsthat aren't measurable.
But I'm not defending DARE,right.
But I've met many adults overthe years who've come to me and
said DARE did work for them.
Okay, right, they told me itdid work for them.
I think DARE was maybe a littletoo bland.
I think things designed bycommittee often end up being too

(12:27):
bland and I've been free for 18years to teach what I want to
teach.
You're a committee of one, I'm acommittee of one and I'm
prepared to crash and burn afterevery assembly if somebody
disagrees with what I taught.
But no, I think when DARE wasdiscredited it somehow created
this bizarre shift in oursociety that we began to believe
that all prevention educationdoesn't work and what should

(12:48):
have happened when dare wasdiscredited was just okay, well,
let's try something else.
But we didn't do that.
So when you look at howhorrible the drug situation is
today 10 times worse thanliterally 10 times worse than
what is when I started in deaover the last 20 years we have
not done anything to get back infront of our kids to warn them.
Ea.
Over the last 20 years we havenot done anything to get back in
front of our kids to warn them,and that's incomprehensible to
me.
It's a sin.
It's a sin All the billionswe're spending trying to deal

(13:10):
with the death and thehomelessness and all these
things directly connected todrug abuse and we're spending
literally nothing meaningful I'mnot saying nothing's happening,
but nothing meaningful orintentional is happening
nationwide to go back toteaching our kids.
And we have an example.
So in 1960, I saw some surveysthat said roughly half of
American teenagers smokedoccasionally or regularly

(13:34):
Cigarettes.
Cigarettes, yeah, 1960.
I don't know if that's good orbad.
I just found this old data, butit doesn't shock me.
I mean, cigarette smoking wascertainly On 60 Minutes.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
they'd be smoking during the interview.
Right, the doctors in thedoctor's lab would be smoking.

Speaker 2 (13:47):
So.
But in 1964, some people said,no, we're going to fight back.
And that's when they initiatedthis massive national campaign.
They put the labels on thecigarettes and we began to teach
part of that program.
We were taught every year inschool the truth of what
cigarettes will do to you.
And it took a long time maybe30 years that we got to a place
where kids they don't wantcigarettes.

(14:07):
And I'll ask the kids in myaudiences, raise your.
I literally say raise yourhands if you think cigarettes
are gross and disgusting.
Every hand goes up.
Now we are almost completelyeradicated youth cigarette
smoking.
And then the tobacco companiesdid a terrible end, run around
us and created the vapes and nowwe have this hideous usual
vaping problem Right.
But nevertheless, I think if youhad told the average American

(14:28):
in 1960, we're going to start aneducation campaign to get kids
to stop smoking, I think theaverage American would have said
, ah, that's never going tohappen, that's just what kids do
.
And I think that's sort of thesame mentality that Americans
have today when it comes toalcohol and weed and other drug
use.
So I just kids are going to dothat.
There's nothing you can doabout it, and I don't agree with
that.
You don't agree with it.
The schools that use me allover the country and around the
world don't agree with that.

(14:55):
But there is an obstacle at asocietal level that I call the
prevention industrial complex,and everyone talks about the
military industrial complexbeing a big problem for society.
I, for me, I call it theprevention industrial complex
and what it is to me is that wehave gatekeepers at the state,
local, national levels thatcontrol funding for drug
prevention and access for drugprevention, and my experience

(15:15):
with them rejecting my work isthat they totally believe that
assembly-based education isuseless, doesn't do any good,
doesn't work, and I asked themto define what that means.
And I asked them to define whatwould working mean to you.
You say it doesn't work.

(15:35):
What would working mean?
Because every single child thatleaves my assemblies at Albert
Einstein is better informed thanthey were before my assembly.
Isn't that a form of working,giving them information,
informed than they were beforemy assembly?
Isn't that a form of working,giving them information?
Is it going to stop every kidfrom using drugs?
Of course not.
That's absurd.
But I encountered thisopposition everywhere I go and,
in my opinion, these people Ibelieve they're well-intentioned

(15:57):
, but there's an old expressiondon't destroy the good in the
search for the perfect.
And at a time where I have toclaw and fight and struggle to
get an hour or 90 minutes in aschool year to access the kids
with this message, the argumentthat that hour is not enough and
we should only do 12-hoursessions or something that's
kind of meaningless, becausewe're not close to that and I do

(16:19):
wish to be put out of a job.
I pray, I pray that ourgovernment steps up and goes you
know what Our kids need?
This we're going to give it tothem.
Yeah, we're going to we'reschools.
You get now six or 12 or 20funded hours a year.
This is the program we're goingto give you and I will ride off
in the sunset, but the realityfor me, where I go, is that's
not happening and those kids,the only messenger they're

(16:40):
getting in the entire year is memessenger they're getting in
the entire year is me.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
Now you do a lot of work internationally, and how is
the acceptance or the welcomingof your work different?

Speaker 2 (17:00):
Well, internationally the DEA has a reputation from
Hollywood.
It's a little bit with kidshere in the US, but definitely
overseas in Mexico, colombia.
They've only heard about DEA inthe movies.
Vin Diesel and John Travoltaare rarely they've seen as DEA
agents.
So that definitely works for me.
They think I'm James Bond.
I stand up in front of a groupof high school kids in Mexico
and they say I'm a DEA guy.
The kid's like, oh, and theythink I'm some super spy guy,
which I'm not.
But I let them believe that.
But whether I'm speakingdomestically or internationally,

(17:23):
my 30-year career of chasingdrug traffickers and living the
fight and seeing what it does topeople absolutely makes a
difference.
The kids are willing to listento me in a way that they're not
willing to listen to many otherpeople with the same exact
teaching message.
In my opinion, what I teach tothe kids is not rocket science.
I teach a little bit aboutbrain development.
I teach what addiction does andmaternal drug usage does and

(17:46):
collateral damage to kids.
And these things I actuallyteach the kids are not, in my
mind, revolutionary.
It's that the kids are willingto listen and give these ideas
more space in their mindsbecause of what I represent and
the credibility I bring to DEA.
But I'm very proud of what Iteach, because when I started
teaching internationally, I wastold, and I believed, that I

(18:06):
would have to be careful to makeculturally appropriate changes
to teach.
And the reality, dave, I'vetaught now in 16 countries.
I don't change anything.
I teach.
I don't change a thing.
Sometimes I'm teaching throughtranslators.
I'm fluent in Spanish.
I'll teach directly inSpanish-speaking countries, but
I've yet to fail to reach anaudience anywhere in the world,
because what I'm teaching isuniversal.

(18:27):
Right.
The drugs that are being usedin Ghana may be different than
the drugs are being used by yourstudents and their families in
San Diego.
What's not different is theoutcome and the pain, and that's
what I'm connecting with.
And it's interesting A lot ofour efforts right now are
talking about what's being usedFentanyl, fentanyl, fentanyl.
Well, there's a lot of cocainebeing used, a lot of meth being

(18:49):
used, a lot of alcohol beingused, a lot of weed being used,
and we're only kind of focusedon fentanyl right now.
But that will change.
I mean, I've been in this longenough.
I was involved in San Diegobefore OxyContin got here, and
then it was Vicodin and Percocetabuse, and then Oxycontin came
in, and then it was Oxycontinabuse, and then that led to
heroin abuse, and then theheroin abuse led to fentanyl
abuse.
And now, unfortunately, thereare even worse chemicals coming

(19:13):
in in the wake of fentanylCarfentanil, which is a hundred
times stronger.
The nitazines, which are acompletely different class of
drugs that act like fentanylthey're 10 times stronger.
So the what that our population, the what that's being used, is
always going to change.
I'm going after why.
I am trying to get the kids inmy audience just to ask
themselves why would I do thisto myself, why would I let my

(19:36):
friends do this to themselves,when the cost and the risk is so
high?
And that's this very reasonableargument I'm saying why would
you do this to yourself?
And I tell the kids my wholeprogram is based on the theory
of self-determination theory inpsychology, which is a theory of
the intrinsic motivation ofevery human, defined happiness.
And there's three maincomponents Autonomy right each

(19:56):
individual is an agent and Itell the kids I choose my future
, you're gonna choose yourfuture, you are the architect of
your life, you decide who youbecome.
And Number two, competence Iteach the kids the truth about
what drugs and alcohol would doto them, based on my own 35
years in this.
And then the third isrelatedness, and I believe I'm
very, very successful atteaching my message in a way

(20:17):
that the kids are able to hear,and I'm constantly upgrading and
changing my messaging to makesure that I'm teaching in a way
that the kids are able to hearwe were talking about the fact
that when you ask kids in Mexicowho is responsible, who are the
consumers and where you knowwhere's the money come for this,
these, the drug trade they giveyou one answer and then the U?

Speaker 1 (20:39):
S there's like just blank faces.
Can you talk about that dynamic?

Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah.
So one of the things that oneof the main components of my
message is that even the act ofbuying drugs causes harm.
You, even buying drugs causesharm because the local drug
dealer you bought that fromdidn't make that drug.
They're going to take your ahundred bucks and they're going
to buy it more from their drugdealer and she's going to buy it
from her drug dealer and veryquickly.
In a modern America.
That money's in the hands ofthe cartels using it to hurt

(21:04):
people in America and definitelyin Mexico and other countries.
And I talk about the extremelevels of violence in Mexico.
And as part of that message,I'll ask my audiences in the
United States who's paying forall the drug violence in Mexico?
And I get a lot of blank staresand eventually some kid will go
to cartels and I said no,because we're the ones buying

(21:28):
the drugs.
All that money flooding intoMexico that funds the cartels
starts in the pockets ofAmerican drug users.
When I'm in Mexico, I startedasking the question of those
Mexican high school and collegeaudiences and I asked them who's
responsible for paying for allthe drug violence in Mexico?
In your country?
They instantly go those consum.
Are those gringos the Americandrug user.

(21:50):
They don't have to think aboutit, and that's deeply
frustrating to me.
And I'm not absolving Mexicoand China, for you know they
need to do a lot more to fixwhat's going on.
But how do we ever resolve thisproblem if we're not willing to
be honest?
That it starts with Americanswanting to spend so much money,
and the Rand Corporation, a verylegitimate research entity, did

(22:11):
a study several years ago andthey estimated that Americans
spend roughly $150 billion ayear buying drugs.
And, assuming those numbers areaccurate, let's assume a third
of that goes to the Mexicancartels, because all the cocaine
, methamphetamine and fentanylflooding into America today
comes through those Mexicancartels.
So let's say, 50 billion ofthat goes to those Mexican

(22:35):
cartels in the form of cash.
The Mexican military has abudget of $15 billion, so we're
sending we American drug buyersare funding these criminal
organizations who don't respectthe law, they don't respect
human rights, they don't respectanybody at a rate three times
greater than the Mexicanmilitary is being funded to

(22:55):
fight back, and that's just avery unfair fight.
So I don't have quick solutionsto any of it.
My mission is actually verynarrow.
I talk about these other things, but my mission is to get as
many kids as I can to sit downfor an hour or 90 minutes and
rethink their own willingness topoison themselves and their
friends.

Speaker 1 (23:16):
You're well over 200,000 students, 270 now 270.
And you're going as high as youcan.
Huh, you're going to get.
I mean, they're really as yousay, you're trying to work your
way out of a job.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
Well, yeah, but, but yes, I am.
I do pray that societyeventually will catch up.
There are some things happeningthat give me some hope right
now, like people are finallycoming around to like maybe we
ought to try more of this.
Like what do you have any?
So I've gotten some calls.
I've gotten some calls fromnational level people, uh, from
different organizations, somefederal agencies and some other
outside organizations that workat the national level who've

(23:52):
shown interest in talking to me,and I don't know how they've
heard about me, but they'reaware of what I'm trying to do
and they're interested infinding out more about it, which
I find very hopeful.
But I don't have my hope up.
About a year just, I wasfighting the world.
I was so angry and and seeingall the sadness and suffering,
you know, just just leaving yourschool.

(24:12):
Last time I was at your school,I had I maybe it was your
seventh graders, but I had thismass of like 20 or 30 kids come
up and sharing all this pain,with these beautiful kids crying
and I call it vomiting theirtrauma all over me.
You know, and I welcome it,yeah, but I leave the school
with this.
Just, I have to cleanse myself,you know, spiritually it's just
terrible and I want to havemore for those kids and I was

(24:34):
carrying that home and it wasimpacting my psychology and my
emotional energy for my familyand friends and I said I've
decided I can't do that, youknow.
So I'm not trying to save theworld now, right.
And uh when a kid tells me someterrible pain.
And when a kid tells me someterrible pain, I work very hard
to give that kid.
In the moment I have with themsome hope and some inspiration
and I leave the school feelingwell, at least I made that kid
feel safe.

(24:55):
At least I made that kid feelsafe for a moment and maybe that
little window of sharing withme will lead to them sharing
with somebody else.
But I now am not trying to savethe world.
I'm not trying to changeAmerica, which I was as an
insane man.
Now it's just I'm going to giveevery group in front of me the
best service I have and I don'tsay no to any invitation.
I'll talk to 10 kids or 2,000kids.

(25:18):
I just say yes to everything.
It takes me the same effort totalk to 10 as it does to 2,000.
I wish I could do 2,000 a lot,but I never know which kid in
which audience is actually goingto take the message away.
And I've had some interestingexperiences in the last few
months where I get the kids whocome up to me right after the
assembly, which is beautiful,but that's easy.
I'm standing there.
I now I'm getting emails andtext messages from kids days

(25:42):
after I left, who tracked medown on the internet because I
don't give out my contact info.
They track me down and theysend me messages literally
saying you changed my life, youchanged my life, you changed my
life.
And many of them tell me thatthey were in drug usage or they
come from drug usage and theyjust didn't.
No one had ever told them hey,this doesn't have to be your
future.
This world you're in right now.

(26:02):
I can't change that.
I tell the kids this I'm sorryIf you're in a world where
everybody around you is drunk oralcoholic or smoking weed.
I can't fix that.
All I can point out is you haveone life, you're the architect
of it and you may have to find away to work your way out of
that.
Alcohol we're not talking aboutalcohol at all and so fatal drug
overdose in the US dropped,thank God, from somewhere over

(26:24):
110,000 a year to just under90,000 last year.
Dramatic drop in overdoses.
No one can conclusively say whythat is.
Speculation leans heavily on.
We've done a really good job ofpushing Narcan out into society
, so that's a good thing, right?
If less people are dying,that's awesome.
But less people dying doesn'tmean less people are using.
We don't know.

(26:45):
And in fact, when I talk aboutoverdoses in my teaching, I
don't distinguish between afatal or non-fatal overdose,
because in my mind, whether Godor Narcan are both saved that
poor person suffering theoverdose, or the drug poisoning,
as we call it too.
I'm fighting the act ofself-poisoning that led to the

(27:07):
overdose, and I fear that thelevel of self-poisoning hasn't
dropped one bit.
I don't have any indicationthat less people are actually
using fentanyl and using theseother terrible drugs, and I
think we over-focus on overdosedeath as a metric and we do not
focus on that collateral damagein the kids that I see
everywhere I go.
That is my prime motivation now, and I've had probably more

(27:30):
than a thousand children nowwell, over a thousand now come
up to me after my assemblies tovomit their trauma on me and to
get a hug.
And let me tell them it's nottheir fault.
And I take selfies with many ofthose kids and my phone is just
full of selfies.
These kids, I can't bear toerase them.
You know these tragic littlekids who trusted me for a moment
.
But it's why you know, it's whyyou bring me into your school,

(27:53):
and even in San Diego, teachinghere 18 years and now I work for
the County Office of Education.
But most school districts stilldon't use me.
And I'm free, it's free.
People elsewhere are paying me,you know, decent money to
travel and do this.
And in San Diego it's free andit's still hard to get in
schools and they this.
And in San Diego it's free andit's still hard to get in
schools.
And there's Santee.
I want to, I want to call,shout out to Santee.
The Santee school district is aK to eight, a medium sized

(28:15):
district.
They don't have that manyschools, but they have decided
and they told me the board.
The school board told methey're going to bring me in
every year as long as I want tocome.
So so far I've gone in twicenow.
But there are S Santee and someother schools in the county
that bring me in every year totalk to their sixth, seventh and
eighth graders.
And some educators say well,the kids already heard you, so
why would they want to hear youagain?
Well, in actuality, when I showup back at your school, oh hey,

(28:42):
Rocky, the kids, they know whyI'm here.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
It's almost like I'm now an adjunct counselor at your
school and a lot happens in ayear in a kid's life.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
But the kids get that this assembly is going to be
interesting, so I don't have tofight to get them to listen.
They understand why they'rethere.
Right, and I address it bytelling the kids look how many
of you were here last year.
All the hands go up, okay, cool.
Some of what I'm going to shareis the same.
There's always new stuff.
However, something today isreally different, and it's you.
You are a year older, you're ayear more mature, you're going

(29:09):
to hear and see this differently, and the kids go okay, yeah.
And you know part of my successas well with the little kids
sixth, seventh and eighthgraders, and some districts have
me down to fifth grade becausethey're seeing the drug behavior
move down to fifth grade now IsI address the mental unwellness
in our kids and the line I useis look, I'm 58 years old, I got

(29:33):
two college degrees, I did somehigh end stuff in my life and
yet I look at the world aroundus right now and it confuses me.
I don't get it.
What's going on with ourpolitics, our economy?
We have these wars?
And if I I tell the kids, if I,with all my life experience,
can't explain what's going onaround me, they're like yeah,
mister, yeah, you get it.
And then I say and we'refailing you and this is my

(29:55):
belief we are failing our kidsas a nation.
You're not, you're doing whatyou can, but as a nation we're
failing our kids by not givingthem basic warnings about this
threat that's everywhere, thatthey deserve to have, fully
recognizing that many of thekids are still going to engage
in the same behavior.
I know that.
But don't we have a moralobligation as a society to warn
them?

(30:16):
And I'll make it a local example, so the numbers might be
slightly off, but four years agoin San Diego we had, I think,
16 fatal overdoses of kids under18 years old.
That is fantasticallyunacceptable.
More than one a month under 18years old was dying from
overdose.
Three years ago.
I think it was six or seven,two years ago it was three and

(30:36):
last year was zero.
As far as I know, there were nofatal overdoses of kids under
18 in San Diego.
I'm not taking any credit forthat, but I'm very proud that
there are a lot of efforts inSan Diego to educate the public
and educate kids.
But if we had a situation whereand this is a rough example to

(30:57):
use, but if we had,unfortunately, a serial killer
that was stalking one student amonth in San Diego, oh there'd
be mass hysteria.
Well, there'd be hysteria aboutit.
And if we had any notion we hada security film or something we
had any notion what this personlooked like and what they drove
, how long would it take to do afull stop in every school and
warn every kid?
It would happen the next day.
And with fentanyl that'swaiting for every single child,

(31:20):
anyone listening to this?
If you have children, if you'rerunning a school or you're a
parent or a grandparent,fentanyl is waiting for your
kids at every prom, every beachbonfire, every house party that
they go to.
Potentially, fentanyl is there.
It's flooded across our society.
The pills cost just a coupledollars for the kids that want
them and we are again failing ina major way to make sure they

(31:44):
understand and get thosewarnings every year they
understand and get thosewarnings every year.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
Well, I know you're not.
I know you've recalibrated fromtrying to save America to one
kid at a time and that'sprobably the appropriate
recalibration.
But I am hopeful that yourcontacts and conversations that
you are having, and hopefullycontinue to have them, at the
national level, are representinga real shift.
I I do see at least some lipservice made to even look and

(32:16):
this is going to get me in hotwater politically, but that's
okay uh, healthier diets, forexample, for americans, a
recalibration around um, takinga look at the influence that
drug companies have in our lives.
You and I talked about that thelast time.
There's a pill for everything.
There's a pill to start things,the pill to stop the thing that
you started with the first pill, and on and on and on, and so

(32:40):
maybe this is representing somesort of a shift nationally,
because I see these as real kindof manifestations of despair.
I have no way to measure that,but when we talk about the
confusion that you have, thatyou and I have as past

(33:01):
middle-aged in life and somewhataccomplished in the things
we've done and we're still likewhat the hell is going on, put
that on a 14-year-old kid in asociety that's fragmented.
People working three jobs can'tafford to make a living.
All those things.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
Right.
But in that same little part ofmy presentation I'll say look,
none of us can make sense of theworld, and yet we expect you to
.
But what we adults do?
Now we step back and scratchour heads and ask ourselves why
are so many of our kidsself-destructing and making
really bad decisions?
Bad choices and it's my beliefbecause they don't have a vision
for themselves.
And so when I teach adults, Idon't teach this to kids, but
when I teach adults, I arguethat we're in a big drug crisis,

(33:36):
not a fentanyl crisis.
Fentanyl is an important partof a much bigger drug crisis.
But why do we have a drugcrisis?
As you touched on, we are one ofthe two countries in the
Western world that allows thatdirect to consumer marketing of
pharmaceuticals and I used toteach at length on this and it's
a multi-billion dollar industryto sell medicines to us
directly.

(33:56):
And it's all day, every day.
It's a steady diet and it'sbeen around the last 25 years
that this happened.
So any young person in Americawho's grown up in the last 25
years has been fed a steady dietof advertising and conditioning
to believe that there's achemical, pharmaceutical
chemical that's going to solvetheir problems.
And the popular culture istelling them that there's a weed
and alcohol and other stuffthat's going to solve their
problems and we're not pushingback on that.

(34:19):
And, yeah, I'd like to believethat the country is kind of
waking up and getting back toits roots.
But what I teach is sofundamentally simple and I'm
very proud of the demographicsthat I've been able to access
and in my mind the picturesdon't lie.
So the people whointellectually oppose what I do

(34:41):
or have these stigmas when Ishow them the pictures of this
joyful engagement with audiencesthat don't look engageable by
me?
I don't know, I don't knowengageable by me?
I don't know.
I don't know what they think,but I am as white as you get old
, bald white, and I make thatjoke.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
At the start of my presentations I show a picture
of myself as a young DEA guywith long hair a red beard.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
I go who is that?
And I get a thousand stares.
The kids are like no, is thatyou?
And?
And they all start laughing.
And some kids will go I've beencatfished.
But I tell the kids, look, Idon't put that out there, don't
get a laugh.
I miss the hair.
I say, but I don't put thisthere to feel sad about getting
old.
What I say is I know that whenI stand in front of an audience

(35:24):
of kids, some of them look at meand they see an old, bald white
man and they turn their earsoff and they say I'm not going
to listen to this.
Why would I listen to this guy?
And I look at him.
When I say and dude, I get theguiltiest looks.
The kids start laughing.
They get these little smilesCause like, oh, it got me.
Cause a whole bunch of them arelike oh, my God, I do not want
to listen to this guy.
And I say, but that's okay, butI think you're going to find
this.
You.
I'm not from here, I don't looklike you, but from that young

(35:47):
age at 23 to this old man age,I've spent my life seeing the
harm that comes to beautifulpeople just like you, and it's
incredible.
They're just like okay.
And so recently I've hadsuccess in two audiences that
are just to me, wonderful.
I was invited to teach in aprison in Mexico last July and
the World Boxing Council is amajor boxing organization that

(36:08):
supports my work and they gotthis opportunity for me to teach
inside of a prison in MexicoWow, and I don't often get
scared.
But the night before it's justoutside Mexico City.
The night before I was nervous.
I didn't sleep well, a littlebit worried about my safety.
I wasn't going in with anybodyguards and this was the
hardcore prison and I don'tthink there's any other retired

(36:28):
white DEA agents that havewalked into a Mexican prison to
sit down and talk to 150 men.
But I was much more worriedabout how am I going to engage
these men, recognizing that myaudience is going to be 150 men
in prison in Mexico who havebeen conditioned by life from
infancy to hate what I look likeand hate what I represent as an
American cop infancy to hatewhat I look like and hate what I

(36:51):
represent as an American cop.
How am I going to connect withthem?
But I went in and I start withhumor and I shook every man's
hand Before we started, I wentaround, shook 150 hands and they
didn't know who I was and somedidn't want to shake my hand but
they did.
And then, when I stood up andwas introduced by the warden as
a DEA agent, there's thisuncomfortable looks and I said
hey, in Spanish, how many of youguys have a friend in the DEA?
And it was hilarious.

(37:11):
They're all like tucking theirhands under their, like not me,
like that's the most outrageousquestion you could ever ask them
.
And I said no, no, no, from nowon, you all have a friend in
DEA, right?
And they all start laughing.
They just think that's funny.
And then I said but let's getreal.
I said I know that many of youwere severely damaged when you

(37:31):
were infants and children bydrug and alcohol abuse around
you.
And they're looking at me likewhere's this going?
And I said okay, raise yourhand if you have kids.
The vast majority hands up.
Okay, hands down.
I said how many of you want toinflict on your children the
same pain that was inflicted onyou?
And I saw a bunch of jawsdropping like oh, the old gringo
just got real here.
But when I finished it wasincredible.

(37:53):
So I was searched when I wasgoing you can't take cell phones
in sure to mexican prison, butI was bringing in my computer
bag and I I took a risk to stickmy cell phone in there just in
case I want I could get apicture.
And after my presentation, thereaction from the prisoners was
ridiculous.
This one kid with gang tats onhis face had been like mad
dogging me my whole presentation, and I noticed it.
When a kid, when you're in hisprison, yeah, and the gangster

(38:16):
is mad dogging you, you notice,he knows, yeah.
So when I finished, though, hecame up.
This sweet 25 year old kid cameup like a sweet 25 year old kid
and goes my tomo's himself youtake a selfie with me and
invited one of his buddies.
So if I have this incredibleselfie with this smiling,
hardcore Mexican gangster.
So I captured some of thosepictures, and next week, next
Monday, I'll be teaching in theyouth prison here in San Diego,

(38:37):
and those kids are going to hateme when I show up, but I'm
going to show these pictures andsay I know how you guys are all
bad-ass.
Are you more bad-ass than theseguys?
Because these guys got somevalue from, apparently, from
listening to me, you know.
I'm hoping you guys listen.
So that's.
I'm really excited about beingable to access our youth
incarcerated population becausethey are extreme risk when they
get out.
And then just last week I wason the reservation in Utah and

(38:59):
the week before that I was onthe Crow and Northern Cheyenne
reservations teaching tribalkids, and it is very, very
difficult for someone who lookslike me to get access to those
kids.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
I did see in a flyer you shared that I think in one
of those you partnered with oneof the tribal elders.
Is there a different?
I mean you said you don'tchange your message.
Right, your message is acceptedeverywhere.
Is there an element, is there ashift that has to happen in

(39:29):
tribal lands?
Like the guy who you partneredwith it said that he had brought
in spirituality into his wholething.
Is that melded with what you do?
Or that was kind of he helpedyou get in the door.

Speaker 2 (39:40):
So I have done.
I've worked with some tribalpopulations successfully without
my friend Les Les left handOkay.
But Les and I met last year whenI was in Montana and his whole
life's been devoted to helpingyouth and he believed my message
was one that would engage thetribal kids.
So he got access for me to theschools in the Crow and the
Northern Cheyenne reservationsand I said I want to do this

(40:02):
with you.
So we partnered for the firsttime no real planning around it,
just let's go talk.
And he has worked with kids andgroups and as individuals.
He has never done, you know,school-based prevention right.
So I was just letting him kindof spread his own wings and we
did five presentations in oneday on the northern Cheyenne
Reservation and everypresentation he was refining his

(40:23):
message and they would threethe next day on the crow and at
the end of the second day hismessage was dramatically
improved.
He was able to watch thereactions of the kids.
But he did bring hisspirituality and I would never
do this, I would never say I'mgoing to start my presentation
with a prayer.
Right, he did.
And the kids some prayed intheir native beliefs, some
prayed Christian.
It was beautiful to watch thisand of course he was very

(40:48):
authentically able to say I knowthe pain, you're growing up in,
and this is something amazingtoo.
So we were in a town called LameDeer on the Northern Cheyenne
Reservation, and Montana has thehighest drunk driving rate in
the nation.
I didn't know that and it'smuch, much worse on the
reservations and my friend Lesasked the kids what's the worst

(41:11):
drug in your communities?
Alcohol, in these communitiesit's alcohol.
Sure, they're seeing theirrelatives die from cirrhosis.
They're seeing the domesticviolence.
And I'm looking at this and inmy regular presentations, like
when I'm at your school, I haveoccasionally asked your students
hey, raise your hand if you aresuffering right now from
someone else's drug and alcoholabuse, and I'll get you know.

(41:33):
10% of the kids, 20% of thekids.
It's amazing how many kids willput up their hands and say,
yeah, I'm hurting becausesomebody around me is hurting
themselves.
I decided to flip it based onwhat I know about the tribal
realities.
So I asked these kids in myfirst lame deer presentation
raise your hand.
If you have not, if you havenot been hurt by drug and

(41:53):
alcohol abuse, raise your hand,no hands.
No hands I asked it over thecourse of two days.
I asked that of 800 tribal kids, you want to guess how many
raised their hands?
No hands, three, three, three.
And I drove away thinking thisis freaking, unacceptable.
America in 2025 and this massof children being badly wounded

(42:15):
by this, and we're not eventrying.
I mean, you know there are manypeople trying, so I gotta be
careful what I say, right?
But when I say we're not trying, like intentionally over time
teaching these kids, you matterto us and this world you're
living in, we can't fix that.
We can't fix what you've grownup around.
What we can change is how youview yourself.
We want to tell you you matterto us and we're here to support

(42:37):
you building life that you want.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
Can you talk a little bit about the Narcan effect or
the risk of Narcan?
I want to be really carefulabout what we say.
Let me, before you answer this,just let me kind of give you my
experience.
So we've been very fortunate tohave you come in multiple times

(42:59):
to have a conversation andpresentation to our kids, and
that's going to continue as longas you keep doing this work and
you want to come, come meetwith generations of kids here.
But my experience is somethingwill come out and there'll be
like an assembly bill, such andsuch and every school has to
have Narcan, and so then Narcanis provided for free, and then

(43:20):
there's a video training thatyou got to go through and you
have to store them in theseplaces on campus and send out
this notice to your community.
And as that's going on, mostpeople are thinking this is
going to be for someone else'skid or it's going to be for a
homeless person on the streetwho comes stumbling up to the
campus and we somehow have toadminister this thing in front

(43:42):
of the campus and within a weekor two we forget that that even
was a conversation and we moveon.
We don't go to where you go,which is the educational piece.
But when you see how these, howNarcan, can really dramatically

(44:06):
reverse overdose, as soon asyou and full disclosure you
showed me some pretty graphicfootage of what happens when
someone overdoses on on, uh, howquickly, how quickly.
Right within 30 seconds or sothey go from sitting to they're
in a prone position and they'renearly dead and the narcan
reverses it pretty.
At least the person startsmoving.

(44:27):
I'm sure there's other damagethat's happened.
Is there a risk that we'reseeing Narcan as the solution
here?

Speaker 2 (44:35):
Right?
No, I, yes, I do believethere's a huge risk at that and,
as I said earlier, you knowit's the act of consuming the
poison that concerns me and Ilove that Narcan is saving lives
.
But there's multiple problemsthat I have with how Narcan has
been marketed.
We fought for years I was partof the effort in San Diego to

(44:56):
get schools to allow it onschool.
Incredibly, there was hugeresistance.
It's a very benign,over-the-counter thing.
It's been proven.
If you're not using opioids ithas no effect on you at all.
We could drink it and it's notgoing to have any impact
literally.
But we finally got it intoschools.
Well, that's great, but what Irealized is that a lot of the

(45:18):
school administrators, whofinally were forced or agreed to
put it in the school, decidedthat they had addressed the drug
problem.
And in their mind, if you say,what are you doing about drugs?
Well, we got Narcan in theschool, as if that's a drug
prevention policy, and for me,narcan is as important as, and
no better than, having a fireextinguisher on the wall.

(45:40):
Nobody running the schoolsystems would say having fire
extinguishers in the schools isa fire prevention policy.
And in fact, you are stillmandated by the state of
California to have multiple firedrills a year, I believe.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
Yeah, yeah, every month.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
In living memory.
We don't know kids have beenhurt.
Last time a kid was hurt in aschool fire.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
With fentanyl and drugs.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
It's completely optional, it's not funded and in
fact there's a ton ofopposition to people like me
coming in saying, hey, kids, youknow, beware so getting Narcan
in the schools, you may haveclosed off opportunities to do
what I do because theadministrator is like no, we
addressed it.
We addressed the problem byputting Narcan on the wall,
which is good.
Something else I worry about,two things I worry about Young

(46:20):
people have told me the peoplewho like to use drugs they'll
talk to me.
It's funny, people don'tunderstand this.
People who use drugs are veryhappy talking to me, justifying
what they do, explaining whatthey do, explaining how I'm
wrong.
I'll talk to anybody and I'vebeen told multiple times by
young people that they considerNarcan to be quote designated

(46:41):
driver.
And when the people in thedrug-using community have it,
they feel safer.
They're all aware of fentanyl.
They feel safer consumingfentanyl.
They feel safer.
They're all aware of fentanyl.
They feel safer consumingfentanyl and they'll pick one of
their friends to sit there withNarcan in case somebody in the
group has an overdose.
They don't seem to understandthat fentanyl is so powerful.
It might take five, six, seven,eight doses of Narcan just to

(47:01):
keep one person alive longenough.
Because Narcan, when it gets inthe person's body, will kick
the opioids off the brainreceptors and reactivate the
breathing, but it doesn'tdestroy those opioid molecules
so they'll come back in.
So as the Narcan wears off,then the opioid molecules will
go back on the brain.
So people can have thiscyclical overdosing pattern
until the first responders getthere.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
So if they're all sharing that same Well, one may
not be enough for anybody, right, but it's just.

Speaker 2 (47:28):
I think when we're distributing it we need to be
very careful about itslimitations and make people
understand.
You know, look, this is not aguarantee for even one person,
never mind multiples.
Second, and this is allhypothetical in my mind, but
when I do parent events, which Istopped for a while because
parents don't show up, I starteddoing them again to honor
schools that let me have accessto the kids.

(47:49):
So you know, if you asked me tocome and do a parent event, I
would say yes, fully recognizingthat the population of your
parents that will show up willbe 2% if we're lucky.
But when I do the parent eventsand those few parents show up,
some show up because they'rejust pathologically supportive
of the schools.
They'll just show up toanything the school does.
Other parents show up, Ibelieve, because they're

(48:10):
concerned, like they're worriedabout something in their own
family.
That's what motivates them to,like they're noticing changes in
the behavior of their kids orthey found some drug
paraphernalia in their kids.
So they show up.
And I have been at events whereNarcan has been handed out to
the audience, and these areNarcan distribution events.
Narcan has been handed out tothe audience and these are

(48:31):
Narcan distribution events.
And I've yet to hear the peopledistributing the Narcan to
point out that most of the kidswho consume drugs are doing it
locked in the bathroom, lockedin the bedroom, they're in their
car, they're not likely to useit in front of their parents,
right, the odds of the parentsbeing present and aware when the
kid is overdosing are reallylow.
It's still good I want thefamilies to have air, but I fear

(48:52):
that it's all hypothetical.
But I do fear that some familieswho come to these events
because they're concerned aboutdrug use in their own families
will come away with Narcan withan exaggerated sense that
they've addressed the problemand they may, because they're

(49:13):
ashamed and because they're inpain and because they're
conflicted and confused.
They may not go on to seek moremeaningful help for their child
in the mistaken belief thatwith the Narcan they're going to
protect their child.
If that makes sense, it doesmake sense.
It's completely hypothetical.
But I just wish that the peoplepushing the Narcan would say
look, it's fantastic, I can getED.
You know the automaticdefibrillator, it might help.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
it might not Just thinking that it's just.

Speaker 2 (49:28):
Hey, it's a good tool to have it, but, god, we got to
do a lot more.
We got to do a lot more, andI'm not hearing that.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
We got to do a lot more, it'll be like someone
saying what's your plan forheart health?
And you go it's good, we gotthe AED thing here.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
We decades of healthy eating and exercise, meditation
, whatever right, yeah, you know, instead of just the zapper,
the paddles.
Yeah, and you know, and, and wehave become a society that with
no attention span, and we wantquick fixes.
And you know, oxycontin waslicensed in 1996, late 95, early
96, and it's taken, andoxycontin is the reason we are
we're here today.
We did not have widespreadopioid abuse across our
population 30 years ago, but wedo now and tragically, it might

(50:15):
take us 30 years.
I hope not, but it might take us30 years to work our way out,
just like with cigarettes.
It took a long time, seatbelts,cigarettes.
But if we don't start workingmy right, my thing if we don't
start working hard today, we'regoing to be very sad in a year
or two.
And, of course, I've beensaying that nowadays for 18
years.
I have amazing predictionpowers that if we don't start
warning our population away fromit, more and more of them are
going to continue to offerthemselves up to it.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
Yeah, it took what 20 years for the Sackler family to
get held kind of accountablefor you know whatever
accountable means forbillionaires.

Speaker 2 (50:45):
But you know, and it's well and we've had a very
sad with the painkillers um painmedicines are wonderful.
Thank god we have that's rightbut you know, there we we and
the pharmaceutical industrypushed this on the doctors and
they created this change inattitude where we began to just
hand it out like candy.
Yeah, we did, you know, 30years ago, and it's terrible,
terrible, and the doctors knewbetter.

(51:05):
They say they didn't knewbetter.
My dad was a doctor back in the70s talking to me about opioids
and how addicted they were.
So, nevertheless, when wereacted to that overprescribing,
in my opinion there was anunfortunate overreaction in that
regard.
And now we've made it, I think,in many cases too hard for
people to get the pain meds thatthey need, the legitimate pain

(51:26):
meds, and my mom's 91 and liveswith me and it's a struggle for
her to get the pain meds sheneeds.
I find that terrible.
Right, there's so many peopleout there that need legitimately
the pain meds, but we have thissort of knee-jerk, quick
reaction to our societalproblems and our politicians
want to say, oh, I did something, so I passed this law or
something.
But the law doesn't necessarilyget down in the weeds and look
at you know what's really goingon.

(51:47):
But I'll tell you a funnyanecdote.
I was at a middle school in SanMarcos last year and this is
one of the schools that bringsme in every year and I've been
going there for maybe 10 yearsnow.
So every middle schooler thatcomes through this San Marcos

(52:08):
middle school, woodland ParkSchool every middle schooler
hears me three times as they gothrough every year six, seven,
eight, six, seven, eight.
And I love doing, I loveworking with the school Great
reception.
When I went in last October thecounselor said Rocky, I got to
tell you something.
One of our eighth graders amonth ago went to a trampoline
park and the kid fell andshattered his femur, which is,

(52:32):
I'm told, one of the mostpainful injuries you can have.
And he goes, and the paramedicspicked him up and they took him
to the ambulance.
Somebody said well, now we'regoing to give you some fentanyl
to help you.
And the little eighth gradersstarted screaming no, no, I
don't want fentanyl, I don'twant to die.
And the school knows about this, because the mom called the
school two days later and said Idon't know what you're doing
for drug counseling, but keepdoing it.
And I find that story to bejust marvelous because that's

(52:52):
exactly the kind of visceralreaction I want your kids to
have, sure, when someone'saround him at the party.
I want them to like physicallyreacting don't get that stuff
away from me, right?
And the kid got the fentanyl,of course he got the under
medical, under medical it'spharmaceutical fund under
medical conditions, right.
But you know, I I know.
I know that when there arepeople listening to this podcast
and I tell that story, many aregoing to cringe.

(53:14):
I think, well, that's terrible.
You created this understatedtrauma in that child and others
are absolutely going to go damnright, that's what I want and
that's the population thatsupports my work.
I don't have the answer for thepeople that don't support what
I do and what people like me do.
I don't know what they thinkthey're doing for the kids.
I don't know if they have someother plan to protect their kids

(53:35):
, but I'm in a place now whereI'm just like I'm done arguing
this.
You know, it's so obviouslynecessary to me that it's almost
, in my mind, negligent if we'renot doing it in my mind
negligent if we're not doing it.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
You talked about trauma vomit.
Oh yeah, and how do you handleit?
I mean, you're supposed to be atough guy.
You had this law enforcementcareer and not suggesting that
you're not tough, but that's adifferent approach.
Right, you work with these kids.
All you can guarantee is that100% of your kids are young,

(54:18):
innocent souls.
Right, you got to carry thatwith you at some level.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
Well, when I first started focusing on reaching
those collateral damage kids Icall them right, I call them the
collateral damage kids I had tokind of get my messaging right
around it and I've improved mymessaging about it and I have a
slide In the middle of mypresentation.
I have a slide.
It says crime, poverty, childneglect, child abuse.
And I stop and say everybody,look at me, everybody look at me

(54:43):
, and I'll have 2,000 kids andeverybody does they, thousand
kids and everybody does.
They all look at me and I go ifyou're living any of this, it's
not your fault.
Sometimes in high school, sayit's not your damn fault, like
I'm yelling, it's not your fault.
And the kids are kind ofshocked.
And the next slide I show isdozens of pictures of these
selfies of these kids who comeup to to share their trauma with
me.
And I said look, and I know Ihave to tell you, it's not your

(55:04):
fault, because all these kidstold me, yeah, it's their fault,
their dad died from an overdoseor their brother died from an
overdose or they started usingdrugs at 10.
And I said look, if you'resuffering from it, it's not your
fault, it doesn't have to beyour future.
And I'd say to these kids look,sometimes the hardest three
words in the English language tosay are I need help?
Yeah Right, everybodyunderstands.

(55:26):
We say are I need help?
Yeah Right, everybodyunderstands.
We as adults don't like to sayit, kids don't like to say it
and I beg, I implore these kidslook, if you're suffering, you
don't have to suffer in silence.
Now, many of the kids who cometalk to me and share their pain
with me, I'll say are youtalking to anybody else?

(55:47):
And they go no, I'm sorry, Ican't, I can't let you go, but
the vast majority of kids aretelling me about something
that's historical or in a way.
I don't think I have tomandatorily report it, they're
just sharing some general painwith me.
But I asked her are you talkingto anybody else?
And they go no.
And I go why not?
And I get different answers.
And one of the things I'verealized our kids are very savvy
and many of them who aresuffering understand that if

(56:10):
they come to a school officialand they tell them the plain
truth about what's happening,they're going to go to foster
care, dad's going to jail, andthey don't want that.
That's right.
So they don't tell anybody andthey carry the pain around
inside and that, as much as thepain they're sharing with me
crushes me, the fact thatthey're bearing it alone crushes
me.
So I beg these kids to find ifyou're carrying the pain around.

(56:33):
Find Dave, find your counselor,find somebody at the school
that you trust and say, look, Ineed help.
And that person is not going tointerrogate you, they're not
going to demand you.
Tell them everything.
You don't need to tell themeverything.
Just tell them at least thatyou need some help and get some
support so you don't suffer insilence.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
Yeah, I think that speaks volumes, too, to the
level of trust that you'reenabled to engender in 90
minutes with kids.
These are situations where, asyou say, kids are savvy.
As humans, it's tough for us totrust people.
If you've been in a situationof of abuse or neglect or

(57:12):
poverty, I'm sure that thosetrust.
Uh, you're on anti-trust redalert, right like, and so, uh,
we see it all the time wherekids don't want to talk to the
formal counselor who's in thatrole, they might talk to the PE
coach or the security guard,whatever it is they're not
they're not even going to tellthe teacher Not even that right,
not even that, because theydon't want their life to be

(57:33):
stabilized.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
So there was a very upscale public middle school
here in San Diego I won't namethe school, but a very upscale
school had me come in, I didthree grade level assemblies and
it's the first that please tellsomebody you need help.
First time I used it and I had.
When I was done, the eighthgraders were lined up.
It was lunchtime and the eighthgraders lined up for 30 minutes
to wait in line to come sharetheir trauma on me.

(57:55):
And I was sitting on the edgeof the stage and the counselors
from the school there's a largecounseling team these young
women came and sat next to me,right, because they wanted to
get over here.
So I'm fine, that's great.
I got no problem with that.
I love that.
Does that have a chillingeffect?
No, oh, okay.
Well, they were to my right andthe kids were at my left.
So the kids are coming up to me, yeah, and it's so amazing.
The kids will stand in linestoically until it's their turn

(58:18):
and then the tears they startcrying me.
Their stories, like some are,some are like, horrifying, some
are, like, you know, not thatbad.
It's bad for the kid, but in mymind it's.
You know, their trauma is notas severe as I see many places,
but I make each kid feel liketheir trauma is like.
You know, I get it.
But as the kids were finishingwith me, I said, oh no, I'm

(58:40):
sorry, so I give the kids my hugoff and they walked past me and
then the counselors would gohey, do you want to come talk to
us?
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
It was insane and the poorcounselors were heartbroken and
we talked afterwards and I saidlook, it's not that they don't
love you, it's just the waywe've structured our system is.
They're not going to come sharewith you this stuff because

(59:00):
they don't trust theconsequences.

Speaker 1 (59:03):
You're part of the fabric.
You're part of the admin.

Speaker 2 (59:10):
You represent the admin?
Yeah, right.
And law enforcement?
Yeah, I mean, I was just at anadult opioid conference last
friday in in missouri and copsare not willing to go tell
management, hey, I got a problemwith drinking or drugs.
Why?
Because you know that changesthat's going to change their
reality, so they keep a bottleup.
So, uh, part of my work, youknow I have so many things that
I'm trying to do with these kidsin this hour or 90 minutes,
right, but part of it is to getthe wounded kids to feel a

(59:31):
little more willing to try toshare, you know.
But the stories are chillingand the first, really one that
just absolutely crushed me.
I was at San Ysidro MiddleSchool and the seventh grader
came up to me after my assemblyand there was a lockdown
actually.
So I'm giving my assembly andthe school got locked down for
some reason while I was there.
So I was stuck for an extrahour there and finally this kid

(59:51):
I saw him come close to me andwalk away.
Come close to me and walk away.
Finally the kid comes up to me.
Hey, I give him a hug, Tell himwhat's your name, I go.
Why are you here?
Why do you want to talk to me?
He goes no, my brotheroverdosed at home yesterday.
I said, how old is your brother?
He goes 15.
And I go why are you here?
And he kind of shrugs.
And I go what kind of supportdo you have at home?

(01:00:15):
Oh, my dad overdosed when I wastwo.
My other brother got killed byhis cartel guys.
And I go do you have anysupport at home at all?
Well, I just met your schoolcounselor.
In my mind I'm dying and it'swhat the kid's telling me.
That's horrifying.
But it's how, matter-of-factly,he's telling it to me, which is

(01:00:37):
equally horrifying.
Right, Like I'm doingeverything I can to not look as
shocked as I feel.
And I said what about talking toyour counselor?
And I said what about talkingto your counselor?
No, so I gave him my card.
I said, dude, do you ever thinkabout using?
Yes?
I said, well, you're carryingtoo much trauma.
We talked about trauma.
I said, dude, if you ever getweak, here's my card.
Of course he's never called me,but I offered him my number.

(01:00:58):
You call me 24-7.
If you decide to use, you, callme.
But I walked and I sat for anextra hour or more in that
parking lot just absorbing,trying to process that level of
pain in this little 13-year-oldkid.
But I went to therapy.
I had to and so I went totherapy and I've gotten to a
place now where, yes, thesestories do.

(01:01:19):
I can't put up shields, so Ihave to let the stories in,
which is why the kids trust youand the kids sense that.
But my crow friend, Les, theirtribe, does the smudging, the
belief system where they burnsweet grass or bare root and
then they take the smoke andthey cleanse themselves with the
smoke.
And when we did ourpresentations together, Les

(01:01:40):
actually smudged me.
We walk out to the car and heuses his ritual to kind of
cleanse the negative energy andnegative spirits off me.
And I don't do that, but I sortof think like that when I'm
driving away from the school Iactively focus on okay, I made
those wounded kids feel heard, Imade them feel safe.
You know, the school staff gotto see, just like your staff

(01:02:01):
gets to see, and in some of thekids too, which is another
beautiful thing.
One more story I'll tell yeah,yeah, no.
So I was at Lemon Grove MiddleSchool a few years ago in the
seventh grade.
Huge five, 600 kids in theseventh grade and a group of
kids comes up to me afterwardsto talk.
Now, I have done this enough.
There are the exuberant kidswho want to come up and tell me

(01:02:23):
hey, my uncle's a.
DEA agent or my brother's aboard or whatever they like the
DEA thing, right?
They want to shake my hand.
I say thank you, but when thekids are laying back, I've
learned to harden my heart.
Because they're laying back,they're waiting and they want
all the other kids to leave.
So then when they come up andshare their pain with me, no one
hears it.
So I have three daughters, so Ihave a particular soft spot for
young ladies.

(01:02:44):
Right, and this little girlcomes, the seventh grade tiny
little thing comes up to me,beautiful girl, and she whispers
to me how old are you?
She goes 12.
I go um, I've been clean frommeth and Coke for seven months.
I go what?
And she goes yeah, I've beenoff.
I've been off Coke and meth forseven months, and I happened.

(01:03:15):
And she tells me a very sadstory about the business her
mom's in and how the mom sharesthis with her customers and and
this girl just started using Idon't know this girl's name and
she's telling me this.
So what do I do with that?
Right?
So I don't know the girl's name.
So I took a selfie with herdoing my little.
I do a little, my little handgesture like that she's my
future.
And then I shared that with theschool district.
I said, look, you know, thisgirl needs some.
With her doing my little, I doa little, my little hand gesture
, like that she was my futureand then I shared that with the
school district.
I said look, you know, this girlneeds some support.
And the district counselor goesoh my God, we know who she is.

(01:03:38):
She's a nightmare for vaping.
So she was like their numberone offender for being this
intransigent vapor and theycouldn't figure it out.
Well, they didn't know any ofthe underlying trauma because
she wasn't sharing it with them.
So that little moment ofintervention was incredible for
that girl's life because all ofa sudden the district took a
completely different approachbecause in her context, vaping

(01:03:58):
is a good thing.
Right, If she's using thevaping to stay away from the
meth and the coke.
You know, it's all relative, Notsaying she should do it in
school, but that was just areally cool example where a
child who's hurting severely,hurting, unknown to the school
district or the school, you knowmy intervention, my presence in
the school, caused a benefitfor that child, and that happens

(01:04:18):
A lot.
Of the kids who come up to meare ones you already knew about.
There's always kids who come upto me that the school didn't
know you know were hurting youknow we're hurting.

Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
Well, I look, I, I know we've spoken about the fact
that there's a lot more need insan diego county than is being
met by requests coming fromschools and I, you know I
districts need to take thisseriously.
You know, I've experienced thekind of gatekeeping mentality
around a lot of different stuffI think in in this profession,
whether it's curricular, whetherit's people being really risk

(01:04:58):
averse, whether there's thisperception that things aren't
politically correct and havingsomeone with a former law
enforcement background come inlike whatever those are.
Someone with a former lawenforcement background come in
like whatever those are.
I don't think we're doingnearly enough at Einstein for
kids, but it sounds like we'redoing a lot more than many other

(01:05:18):
places and that's kind ofthat's really unacceptable to me
, me, so, um, it would be sad ifthis, if your work then
expanded nationally on adifferent um stage that's bigger
, that's broader, it wouldn't.
That was great for kids, butit's a sad commentary on local

(01:05:41):
um, uh, intransigence aroundlike we need to do something.
That's the 16 number that youcited needs to go to zero, not
to mention there's all this,these, these concentric rings of
impact that go out into society.
We didn't even talk abouthomeless populations.
There's probably all kinds ofoverdoses that happen that

(01:06:04):
perhaps never even getregistered on the on the metric.

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
Yeah, because I'm not afraid to talk to the homeless,
right.
I mean, if they look likethey're present, I'll talk to
them.
Right, right, right.
And I mean I'm fascinated howdo these poor people end up in
this miserable condition?
Right, and it's always thisinteresting moment when I say
I'm a former DE agent, there'sthis moment of Right.
They try to process that howformer are you yeah yeah.
But then I say, but can I talkto you?

(01:06:28):
Yeah, I say okay, is drug abuseone of the main reasons you're
on the street?
100%, all of them.
Yes, right, many causes, butall of them identify drug abuse
to me as one of the main causes,and this is published as well
in the published studies.
This next question it hasn'tbeen published.
I haven't found it anywhere.
And this is what baffles me,because I ask what I think is a
very obvious follow-up questionWow, well, what age were you

(01:06:53):
when you started?

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
using 8, 9, 10, 11.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
Yeah, and why Trauma trauma, All these different
traumas?
Yeah, so they startedself-medicating when they were
in our schools to deal withunaddressed trauma like vicious
trauma.
And then I say but when youwere going through school, did
you ever have any kind ofmeaningful drug prevention
education?
And they all go, no, and I getenraged at that because I look

(01:07:16):
at these beautiful peoplerotting in our streets and
they're all somebody's child,somebody's loved one, and we're
in our compassion.
We're letting them die in ourstreets and they've all told me
that they started using drugswhen they were in our schools,
when we had a chance to reachthem and we didn't even try and
we hyper-focused on overdose,the death from overdose, the
death right, the collateraldamage, those concentric rings

(01:07:36):
of damage extends so farmassively beyond that, Costing
society in so many ways.
And we're not even asking theright questions.
And I don't understand, and youknow, these billions and
billions that they're throwingat trying to mitigate the
homeless.
If we had 1%, literally, if wecould get 1% of that to fund

(01:07:56):
programs like me I'm not sayingme, but programs like mine
across California and do what Ido and try and reach those
little kids who are using atthat young age and make an
invitation to pull them towards,pull them towards recovery
resources.
Don't wait till they're alifelong, 10-year addict and
trying to undo all the carnage.
Get them when they're newlyinto the addiction process and

(01:08:18):
maybe there's a higher level.
We're not trying and schoolscurrently are not set up for
that.
I'm not blaming you for notdoing it.
I don't want your job.
You've got a hard time runningthe schools but all the other
mandates you have.
But on the societal level Idon't get it because we seem to
abandon the idea of prevention.

Speaker 1 (01:08:37):
And on the, you know you made an interesting comment
about parents not coming out toand we run parent universities.
I think we might've had you, ifI'm not mistaken, come to one.

Speaker 2 (01:08:49):
Either or two or three parents.

Speaker 1 (01:08:50):
Yeah, yeah yeah, but we don't get really a lot of
parent turnout at all and Ithink part of that is for a lot
of people that's just someoneelse's kid, as they have about
you know, some curricular issueor what program is or is not

(01:09:13):
being taught, or who is or isnot being indoctrinated with.
Whatever people think is thisideology or that ideology no one
ever died from, from beingtaught a controversial ideology.
We can debate the role of racein history and thankfully we can
do it in a way that no one'sgoing to die tonight, but the

(01:09:35):
other and people come out andcome out with pitchforks for
that.
But there's other things justkind of just quietly there.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
Well, years ago so it was, you know, 10, 12 years ago
I did an event in San Diegowhere each school district has a
student services director.
Yeah Right, and they're not theacademic.
Their focus is on the cultureon the campus and the support
activities of bringing the kids.
So there was a forum thatbrought people in from all the
districts to listen to differentprevention resources.
And as I was listening to thedifferent prevention resources

(01:10:04):
explain themselves, when it wasmy turn, I stood up and said
look, there's a continuum ofintensity On the left side over
here we have Barney.
I love you.
You love me.
On the right side, you have me.
Just to be clear, I'm that guy.
I'm going to go there.
I'm going to make kids cry.
It's going to generateconversation in your school,
your community and yourpopulation.
If you don't want that, don'tbring me me.

(01:10:31):
And of course, there areschools that do want that, just
for whatever reason.
They do syncretically.
Schools that have kids die arewilling to do that.
People in an administrationhave lost family members or
people just have a differentconsciousness.
But I still get high schoolstelling me so.
At the time the consensus wasthat my program was only
appropriate for high schoolsthis is 10, 12 years ago, man
that my program was really onlyappropriate for high schools
with the intensity that I wasbringing.
Well, over those 10 years nowI'm mostly now in middle schools
and even being brought down andI'm doing some fifth and even

(01:10:55):
some fourth grade presentationsame presentation Now I changed
the intensity a little bit, butit's pretty much the same
program.
And that's not because thoseadministrators woke up and said,
oh, we need to do this.
They're now seeing the drugbehavior that we used to see in
high school migrate down themiddle, down into elementary,
and the parents don't understandthis.
They don't understand howaccessible the drug is.

(01:11:16):
They don't understand how farmore potent everything is than
it used to be.
And I wish parents would getinvolved and I wish we could
teach them, but they're not.
Yeah, right, but even when I'mteaching the little kids, they
understand everything I'mtalking about.
Of course they do, right,there's nothing I mean.
And the kids that cry in mypresentations, it's because they
either are touched by thehumanity of it, right, which is
beautiful, or, you know, they'velived it.

(01:11:38):
Yeah, and you know, I think alot of school administrators
aren't willing to go there.
They don't want to create anassembly where somebody might
cry, but when this problem is sopervasive and it's waiting for
our kids and it's going tocontinue to wait for them, who
are we as a society that wedon't feel an obligation to warn
them?

Speaker 1 (01:11:58):
And we put a lot more energy and time into planning
for mass shooter incidents inschools, which undoubtedly are
just devastating beyond wordsbut statistically really really
unlikely to happen Quite rare,thank God.
They happen way more frequentlyin places of business and

(01:12:22):
public big box stores and stuff,so people should be prepared
for that.
But this idea that we don'twant to upset our little kids
and, by the way, every littlekid is carrying around a super
powerful computer in theirpocket that they can look up
anything and everything theywant at all, we'll do.

Speaker 2 (01:12:40):
they'll do schools, we'll do active shooter drills
and things so like that's not.
That's pretty traumatizing fora kid.
You know, when we were youngthat's pretty traumatizing for a
kid.
You know, when we were young wehad the nuclear.
I'm old enough to remember wehad those get-on-your-desk
nuclear drills.
That was kind of traumatizingbut we did it.
No, but it's interesting, right.
So I come in and I talk to kidsabout the drugs.
I have had kids come up to meafter my assemblies saying Rocky

(01:13:03):
, can you come back and talkabout bullying?
Can you come back and talkabout bullying, can you?
come back and talk about porn.
Right, and it's not becausethey think I'm some expert in
these areas, they just like mystyle.
That's right.
Let's get real Now.
The porn is is is bullyingobviously is everywhere.
Porn is interesting because thekids bring it up to me and yet
I have yet to meet theadministrator and I understand
why this willing to go there.

(01:13:24):
So the porn that's available tothe kids through the devices is
terrifying to me and how it'swarping their sense of
self-worth, their self-identity,their sense of relationships,
and we're not even willing totalk about it.
Something else we're nottalking about is sexting and
sextortion, and there's thiswhole sick culture of kids and
adults grooming children to sendthem nude pictures in exchange

(01:13:49):
for gifts or money and then theyuse those pictures to torment
the kids.
And there's been tragicallynumerous teen suicides in
America as a result of thesextortion that we're not
willing to talk to the kidsabout.
So you know, but some of thatstuff I get the controversy in
it.
I do not at this point, lookingat modern America, understand

(01:14:09):
how what I do is consideredremotely controversial.

Speaker 1 (01:14:12):
I don't think so either.
I don't think so either.
I really which is why I wantedI'll always the doors will
always be open here for you tocome work with our kids, and I
respect what you're doing.
You don't have to do it.
You could be having a peacefulretirement and not traveling all
over the country, and you'reprobably flying into towns that

(01:14:35):
have little tiny airports andgetting in rental cars and
driving across Montana to showup somewhere and eating at
Applebee's and all that goodstuff.
But it's definitely.
You know, you're changing lives.
So thank you, thank you foryour service with, for our kids.

Speaker 2 (01:14:54):
Oh, I thank you for that.
I appreciate it and the biggestappreciation I could possibly
get from you is is what you doand you're extremely protective
of your kids and you give me thechance to come in every year.
You know and address your kidsand that's I have profound
appreciation for, for the trustthat you give me.

Speaker 1 (01:15:09):
So thank you and thanks again for the opportunity
to talk about it.
Absolutely.
Thank you, rocky.
For people to find you, I think.
Can you just give us yourwebsite?

Speaker 2 (01:15:18):
Yeah, it's my name.
It's www.
Rocky R-O-C-K-Y, heronH-E-R-R-O-Ncom, and you'll find
out about my program.
In addition, there's a toolthat anybody listening has to
use in their schools or in theirhomes.
The County Office of Educationin San Diego funded the
production of a series of shortvideos 15 to 20 minutes, or six

(01:15:40):
of them that we broke my program, my single session, into six
parts, six components that wehope work as standalone.
We also hope they work as aseries.
They come with a teacher'sguide, they come with classroom
exercises and they're free andthey're in English and Spanish
and they are available on ourwebsite.
There's no registration.
We put no barriers.
It's frustrating because wedon't know who's using them.
We don't want to put anybarriers there, but anybody

(01:16:03):
listening to this podcast thatwants to sit down with their own
kids and generate theconversation in their family, I
encourage you to go on mywebsite, find those videos at
the bottom of my page, sit downwith your kids and watch them
and when the video ends, say, ohmy gosh, is that really what's
going on?
You know you can always talk tome about this stuff.
If you're in a school, you're ateacher.
We designed them to be short.
Any teacher anywhere can find15 or 20 minutes a week right to

(01:16:25):
run one of these videos andinfuse this into their program.
We don't have to do a full stop.
This doesn't have to be, in myopinion, to give the kids some
minimal warnings.
Are the warnings that I cangive in a single assembly, as
you alluded to?
You know we're barely doingenough for your kids.
But it's in.
The reality of running yourschool is what we can't do right
, and hopefully you are giventhe funding and the resources to

(01:16:47):
do more, and hopefully you aregiven the funding and the
resources to do more.
But to the many people whodetract from what I and other
people like me are doing, thatit's not good enough, true, I'm
the first person to say, I'm thefirst person telling everybody
listening what I do isn'tremotely good enough for the
kids, but I believe it'sinfinitely better doing nothing.
It's infinitely better thandoing nothing.

(01:17:08):
So at least I have that.

Speaker 1 (01:17:10):
Well, thank you.
I encourage everybody to checkout your presence online.
Look on LinkedIn as well.
Great videos on there, andphotos, too, from the different
schools and organizations whereyou've spoken.
So thank you so much for yourtime Rocky today.
As always, it's a greatpleasure.

Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
Happy to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:17:26):
I hope you enjoyed this episode with Rocky Heron
today, as always, it's a greatpleasure.
Happy to be here.
I hope you enjoyed this episodewith Rocky Heron.
Please give us a five-starrating wherever you listen to
your podcasts and considerdonating to the show.
Just click the support our showlink for more information.
Thanks for coming on in to hangout.

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