June 1, 2025 • 88 mins
Anita Fisher shares her powerful journey from successful banking executive to mental health advocate after her son's diagnosis with schizophrenia while he was serving in the military. Anita's 25-year crusade navigating America's complex mental health system reveals critical gaps in treatment, particularly for those with anosognosia (lack of illness awareness).
Warning: this episode contains adult themes that may not be appropriate for all listeners.
To learn more about Anita Fisher's work, visit fishermhconsulting.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Hangout Podcast.
I'm your host, david Shoretta.
On this show, we sit down forinteresting and inspiring
conversations.
In this episode, I wasprivileged to have a
conversation with Anita Fisher.
Anita Fisher is an outspokenand powerful advocate for the
(00:21):
rights of those diagnosed withmental illness.
Her own work in this fieldbegan as a personal journey over
two decades ago when her adultson, pharaoh, was diagnosed with
serious mental illness.
This led to a completetransformation in their lives
and in her own career, as shemoved from a successful banking
(00:44):
career to becoming a mentalhealth advocate.
Now retired, she continues toadvocate on behalf of those
suffering with mental illness.
We covered a wide range oftopics, from mental illness to
substance issues to homelessness, and Ms Fisher has some strong
(01:05):
and outspoken views on what shebelieves are some solutions from
her own personal livedexperience.
To learn more about thisremarkable woman and her work,
visit fishermhconsultingcom.
That's fishermhconsultingcom.
That's Fisher mhconsultingcom.
(01:26):
I hope you enjoy thisconversation as much as I did.
Welcome, ms Fisher.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show today and for sharing
your story.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Well, thank you, Dr Schroeder, for the invite.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I thought it would be useful and helpful and
instructive for our listeners ifyou would start at the
beginning of your story, whereyou come from, what paths in
your life have led you to thiscurrent moment, and then we can
get into your advocacy work.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Okay, great, thank you.
Well, I'm originally a NorthernCalifornia.
I was actually born and raisedin San Francisco and my
husband's job brought us to SanDiego County 30 years ago.
Now I have two sons.
They're 10 years apart in ageand the son that brings me to
(02:21):
the work that I'm doing now ismy oldest son.
He was in middle school when wemoved here.
Sorry, not middle school, hewas actually a junior in high
school when we moved here and Iknow that was a big transition
for him, but he did well.
He graduated.
(02:41):
We thought he was heading offto college but something kind of
changed for him and I said youknow?
He said I don't want to go tocollege and I said, well, okay,
army, navy, air Force, marines.
I said, until you figure outwhat you want to do with your
life, I said, at least you canbe gaining some skills going to
(03:01):
school, whatever.
And he went off to boot campand I remember going to his boot
camp graduation in Fort LeonardWood, missouri, and I saw a
changed young man.
I mean, those shoulders wereback, he seemed focused on what
he wanted to do with his lifeand he ended up going to the AIT
(03:23):
they call it.
I think it's advanced somethingtraining.
But he ended up in the mediccorps and he was out of his
class, only one of two recruitsthat went to Walter Reed.
So his duty station was WalterReed and he was working in the
hospital.
And I said, wow, I said I neverwanted to be a nurse, but my
mom was a nurse.
(03:44):
His grandmother said, wow, Isaid I never wanted to be a
nurse, but my mom was a nurse,his grandmother.
And I said so, you've kind ofpicked up that path, you know,
of going to work.
And then I remember we did afamily trip to Washington DC.
Actually I'd never been therebefore and it was great for my
younger son, you know he wrote agreat report on all the things
we saw and did in DC and I gotto see him in action.
(04:09):
You know, actually behind thenurses station I would get all
these compliments, you know,from a lot of the older.
His fellow colleagues there,you know, say fine young man,
great young man.
And this is what I always heardabout my son his whole life.
His report cards used to sayjoy to have in my class.
He was a very good student andso I always like to tell about
(04:33):
and share who he was before hisillness manifested.
And then, I'd say, two yearsinto his service, I was, like
you know, I used to say one down, one to go, you know, getting
the other one ready and out ofschool.
And you know, we have thatdream of being empty nesters,
(04:55):
you know and all that good stuff.
Getting your RV yes yes, youknow, and we used to say that we
used to actually say, no, we'regoing to sell the house and
live in a motor home.
You can't move back home if youdon't know where we are, you
know.
So we used to tease about that.
But he came home one summer andI noticed he was drinking very
heavily, and it wasn't just thathe was drinking, but it just
(05:18):
didn't make any sense and hejust seemed to be changed in
some way.
And I remember, you know, Iwould just go to work as a
normal and come home and in theevenings we'd have dinner and
you know, uh, you know, catch up, but it was just something very
different and I didn't knowwhat it was.
And I um remember that themorning that he was needed to
(05:45):
leave to go back to Washington,I was going to drop him off at
work.
I worked downtown, so it wasperfect, drop him off at the
airport.
And he wasn't.
He just was not ready.
He was disorganized, that bigduffel bag thing, you know.
I said you better hurry up, sohe's stuffing stuff in there.
I said, excuse me, I noticedthat, you know, you've been
(06:07):
drinking pretty heavy andprobably some other stuff too.
I'm sure marijuana may havebeen involved.
And I said you need to talkwith your sergeant.
You don't want to ruin.
You already have steps.
He's made up.
You know grades.
He's been promoted.
He was a certified phlebotomistalready.
You know he was really doingwell.
And I said you know theyprobably have a program.
(06:31):
I'm sure you wouldn't be thefirst that might need some help.
You know in this area.
So I said please talk with yoursergeant and try to get some
help.
And I worried as a mom you knowyou have this gut thing.
And I worried as a mom, youhave this gut thing.
I dropped him off at the airport.
I went to work and I just neverdidn't feel.
I said make sure you call.
(06:51):
I don't even think cell phoneswere kind of out then.
So I said when you get there,call and let us know that you
made it back safely.
And I remember about two days Iknow he never called one day
one.
Then day two, that evening Igot a call from his sergeant
saying do you know where yourson is?
(07:13):
I always say that was thebeginning of our journey.
After that I remember that um, I, I spoke with her and um, she,
uh, said you know, yeah, this isso unusual for him, but she had
a butt in there and she wassaying he just there's a change.
(07:34):
We started to see a change inhim.
You know he, you know she wasthinking it was him hanging
around with the wrong people.
But it was the fact that he washanging around with the ones
who like to drink and what haveyou and all that is very key to
all of this because having adiagnosed mental illness, you
(07:54):
will find I know the statisticssay somewhere 40, 50 percent, I
believe it's more, 80 percentthey have some type of substance
use disorder attached, whichthey call co-occurring disorder.
You know where they'reself-medicating with drugs or
alcohol.
You know to manage thosesymptoms.
And so this all played a key inbecause in the initial part of
(08:18):
our thinking was that oh my gosh, he's gone out there and
becoming maybe an alcoholic ordrugs or something like that,
and that wasn't part of yourfamily pattern or history or
anything.
No, no, no, and we just didn'tsee that coming.
You know, I'm not saying he wasa perfect angel.
I know that he, you know, quoteexperimented with marijuana in
(08:39):
high school.
So you know, that's not youknow, but it was nothing like
that.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
He's not alone in that school.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
So you know, that's not you know, but it was not
alone in that, yes, exactly, andso we you know, but this, what
we were seeing, we did, we didnot expect.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
You want me to just keep going yeah, no, no, no, you
, you, you're good Okay.
You keep talking and I'm I'mjust looking down on here.
Okay, we'll, we'll edit throughthese.
You're good, you tell yourstory, this is your story.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
All right, thank you.
So then they did locate him.
He was on the grounds, but hejust wasn't reporting to work.
And that's where they found him.
They said they counseled himand talked to him.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
To him, and then the unthinkable really happened was
when I got a call to say yourson is in the brig.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I said what?
So he'd gotten to the militarybase?
Yes, he had got back to, yes,to the hospital, and it wasn't
even the way that it set up thehospital.
And then they had likedormitory, like you know, that
sat on the campus.
So he had his own room, youknow, it wasn't like they were
in bunks or anything.
And they said he got into afight with another soldier and
(09:55):
they hit him with a bottle.
It was just like what, what?
I didn't know who they mightsaid had never been in a fight.
You know, throughout school hewas always the guy.
Everybody, you know, wanted tobe his friend and all the girls
liked him and all this kind ofstuff.
So this was so unusual.
I said no, and I thought, ok,I'm going into some kind of, you
know, alternate universe.
(10:16):
I said who is this?
What is going on?
Well, it gets worse.
They said well, yeah, they'vehad, he has enough with this,
this is it.
They're going to probably, youknow, put him out.
And so I got a call from a JAGofficer who said I'm going to be
representing your son and, yeah, they're going to want to court
(10:38):
martial him, you know.
And so I kind of told him hisstory, you know, kind of just
what I just said, shared to youthat birth through, you know.
You know the time that heentered.
He says you know what, I wouldlike for you to come back and
get on the stand and at hishearing, I want you to share
that with him because we all sawwhat you are describing when he
(11:01):
first came are describing whenhe first came and they flew me
back to DC and I remember thatwhen I sat there outside of that
courtroom my husband had afriend, a family friend, who was
an attorney in DC.
So he came with me and he saidyou know, military law is
different than civilian law, butI can at least listen and be
(11:23):
here with you, you know.
So he came to the hearing withme and I remember when I saw I
could tell he was a high rankingperson walked in with two other
guys, you know, in theiruniforms, and I could, you know
he was actually sort of the headof the hospital, basically on
(11:44):
the military, you know, militaryside, and he came up to me and
they called me.
You know this is my secondmarriage.
I'm Fisher, but his last nameis Degree and I will tell you
about his father in a momentthat he said Mrs Degree, he says
I'm sorry to meet you underthese circumstances.
(12:05):
He says I remember your sonwhen he came with the new
recruits and I remember that Icould pick out the ones who were
going to be an issue and yourson was not one of them and he
proved me wrong.
I mean, he proved me right andso I'm sorry to meet you.
And I thought that was so kindof him to say that and make that
(12:27):
because I thought, oh, they'reall mad at him.
He's not lived up to what heshould.
So, and just kind of hold thatthought, his name is Degree.
I was married previously his dadand the reason why we divorced
was because his behaviorschanged.
We married early in our 20s andall of a sudden he was this
(12:51):
upstanding.
Actually he had been in theNavy, he worked for the Veterans
Administration, we were just ayoung couple.
I had a little job at the bankand we were raising our baby,
but something totally changed inhim.
And so hold that thought.
And then I'm going to now jumpback to where I was in the story
(13:13):
with my sons and we.
There was a psychologist thenthat approached me as I was
sitting there.
He said hello, mrs Degree, theykept calling me Degree While
your son was in the brig.
I was seeing him and he sharedsome things with me that leads
(13:33):
me to believe that this is thebeginning of a mental health
issue.
And I'm looking at him.
I said he said because we wouldsay, oh, it was probably drugs
and alcohol, that we know he wason as well because they did
test, he said, but he was inthere long enough where it
wasn't the drugs or alcohol.
(13:53):
All that would have been out ofhis system.
And he says so when I'm done,you're going to hear me say some
things while on the stand.
And he said when I am done,make sure you get a transcript
because we are trying to get amedical discharge.
And all of this is just sort ofshocking to me.
I said medical what?
And you know, and I'm justreally still confused at this
(14:17):
point, so we go into the hearingand then they do eventually
call this.
They, you know, talked about,of course.
And then they do eventuallycall this, you know, talked
about, of course, the incident,which was again totally out of
character, surprise for my son.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
An altercation.
Yes, yes, Some sort right.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Yes, and then they talked about this psychiatrist
got on the stand, psychologist,psychologist, and he said, as
he's going through everythingtalking and and what he said
voices that he was hearingvoices and that he said that he
(14:52):
used to believe that when he wasin his room that anyone who
passed the door was talkingabout him or and he said that
the TV was doing things where hewould throw his sheets over the
TV.
He was sharing this.
He felt safe enough to sharethis with that and I'm just
sitting there in shock.
And he said I do not believe heis malingering.
(15:15):
And I came to know that that isa word in the behavioral health
world that means they're notfaking, he's not malingering,
and that I believe he has aschizophrenic form disorder.
And I will never forget thosewords, schizophrenic form
disorder.
And I said wait a minute, wait,that's that part schizo.
(15:38):
I've heard that that's peoplewith.
You know that C word that Idon't ever use anymore, but you
know we used to say that.
Oh, that person is you know theC word and I said wait a minute,
no, this can't be it.
And so they and he did not getthe medical discharge.
They kicked him out with a badconduct discharge.
(16:00):
I went back home and it wasgoing to be time to finish
processing him out and they werejust going to send him back to
San Diego.
Of course he didn't, wouldn'thave any benefits whatsoever.
And I thought, well, again inmy mind, that whole
schizophrenic, schizophrenicform disorder thing went to the
back of my mind and I was like Ialways call it myself stigma.
(16:24):
I said, well, it was just thedrugs and alcohol.
He's going to bring himselfback here and get himself
together and you know he hassome skills, he's a.
You know he maybe can work forthe blood bank or a hospital or
something like that and this isa blip, excuse me.
And he came back and we hadthat discussion but something
(16:48):
had changed.
He literally couldn't get backto San Diego.
He missed his flight.
They put him on a bus.
He went back to the base.
They said no, no, you're notsupposed to be here.
So they got him a bus ticketand put him on a bus.
I'm surprised he made it backacross the country.
Yes, he came.
He literally had left, had losthalf of his things and I he was
(17:11):
so disruptive that one thing Iremember is that there was this,
this hotel, um, that was nearthe bus station called the
Pickwick Um, and I remember thatI said let's just get him a
room there.
I, we need to figure this outand process.
By this point, I have a 14 yearold at home and I'm like what
(17:32):
kind of chaos is coming in here.
So, you know, we put him there.
You know he was there for alittle while.
Then we had him come home andyou know, with the rules, you
know, you know no drinking, ofcourse, no drugs, and you need
to have a purpose, goals to set,and he would say all the right
(17:55):
things, but I just still noticedthat there was something.
And then my younger son said tous one day he said you know, he
does some, some strange things.
He he called the, the.
The fire department showed upat the house when you guys were
at work.
It was like he was out ofschool at that time, during a
(18:17):
break.
And he said that sometimes he'sscreaming in his room and I and
I said why didn't you tell us?
Well, that was his hero his bigbrother, you know, and he, you
know, didn't want to get him introuble.
And I said well, you need totell us.
And then that stuff aboutschizophrenic formed started.
(18:37):
So I started doing research.
We had a computer wasn't a loton it at that time.
But, you know, I found enough towhere I remember seeing a
checklist for schizophrenia andI could check off every box and
I remember even showing it to myyoungest and I said, well, I
believe that this is whathappened, and I did get that
(18:58):
transcript as well, becausethat's going to be very
important to this journey is mehaving that transcript from his
court-martial.
And so it started.
We were just on this.
I, I didn't know where to turn.
I just he was having all thesedifferent and I, we were
(19:20):
arguments and screaming, and youknow what is wrong with you and
you need to.
Okay, I'm going to put you out.
And I remember, you know, Ithought that threat would
definitely straighten him up,but it didn't.
And I remember I did.
I said leave, you have to leavethe house.
You know my husband, you knowwe're having discussions in this
(19:40):
.
He's raised him since he wassix.
That is his son.
We never say step anything andhe loves and adores him to this
day, each other.
They do love and adore eachother to this day.
And but he was right there, youknow, with he said no, we're
not having that in this house,you know.
And so I remember that it waslike a Friday or Thursday or
(20:05):
Friday and I'm like, oh, it'sgonna be cold out there.
He'll be back in one straightenup.
And then I'm to my husband at 5am that Saturday morning, let's
go look for him.
I knew he had ended up downtownsomewhere and we went to look
for him and I remember that Iwas walking and I saw this group
(20:25):
of kind of young people and Isaid do you know a guy?
He has, you know, an unusualname named Pharaoh.
He said, yeah, you see thoseboots sticking out of that
doorway.
That's him I just saw and Ididn't recognize the boots.
I didn't, you know.
And so I walked down there andmy husband, who had broke his
ankle, was driving, you know,and I'm walking, and, sure
(20:46):
enough, that was him laying in adoorway and I said I said this
is not come on, you need to, youknow.
So he agreed to come and Iremember he was filthy, dirty,
and I remember making him standin the garage, strip naked and
throw everything in the garbagecan.
And you know, I gave him atowel and I remember, you know,
(21:10):
making him come and shower andthings, and I thought, okay,
maybe we can start this, we cantry this again.
Well, it didn't work and hestayed the weekend.
I said we need to go to aprogram.
Then it was.
We were looking for drug andalcohol programs, right.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Because you still didn't, you weren't thinking.
Mental illness no.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
I had read, I had seen it.
I was still saying but no, thiscan't be, you have to be born
with this.
That's what I was saying in myhead.
He doesn't just develop at 21years old.
And so I did try to pointtowards the substance use.
So we were trying to.
We saw all these programs thatwere listed residential.
(21:55):
I remember we would go.
He would sit, go through theorientation part and whatever
you have to do, the rules andregulation, and then he would I
don't want to be here or I don't.
I said, well, you need to picksomething.
because I was frustrated by thispoint, because you need some
help, right?
So finally it took an arrest.
He was arrested because backthen crack cocaine was the drug
(22:18):
of choice in the streets at thattime and they had mandatory
sentencing.
So he would end up in jail forfacilitating a drug buy or under
the influence or, um, okay,what was the third one that he
would always get arrested for?
Um, yeah, probably betweenthose two, and then it would be
(22:42):
strikes, you know, for him beingunder the influence, because I
was like no drug dealer, hisstate of mind we would always
drive.
My husband worked downtown.
We would drive through thestreets looking, we would find
him and you know, but hewouldn't come in for help.
I soon learned that he didn'trealize he was sick.
(23:03):
I soon learned that he didn'trealize he was sick.
He has an added feature to hisnow schizophrenia, diagnosis of
anosognosia, the lack of insight, and that is a clinical term.
Now, dr Javier Amador, he has agreat book that we always
recommended, and I'll get to howI got to NAMI and I'll get to
how I got to NAMI and duringthis period I finally said, okay
(23:28):
, we have to now figure out thiswhole mental illness thing,
this mental, you know because,and understand it.
And I kept seeing in my, in,looking for help, this NAMI,
n-a-m-i, national Alliance onMental oh for the mentally ill,
even back then, and and I, I, I,I call them one day just
(23:51):
desperate, a desperate mother.
And I remember I was in tearsand I said this is what's been
happening.
I gave him the whole story andI thought they were going to say
, oh, sorry, ma'am, you're, yeah, this is too hard for us or
something you know.
And he said we understand.
Now, remember that was a dadthat answered the phone.
I eventually met him later.
But he says I understand, Ihave a loved one and we've been
(24:15):
through some of what you'vementioned.
You know you need to take thisclass.
And he said it's called familyto family.
And he says it's 12 weeks.
I said, excuse me.
I said a class.
I said no, sir.
I said I need help, I need toknow how do I get my son into
treatment.
Everybody keeps telling me Ican't just call and have him
(24:37):
picked up.
Like you know, when I used towatch TV, dr Kildare or whoever
it was, you know you saw thewhite.
You know ambulance come withthe red, you know cross on it
and they had that little buttondown, you know, and they would
come and take the person to aplace for help.
You know, I said where's thatnumber?
You know, and, but it didn'texist, and and and, in some
(25:00):
cases rightfully so.
You know, that was the old waythat they did it.
You know the insane asylums ofof yesteryear, yes, and so we
did take the class, because evenmy husband and I were
struggling too, and how we saw,you know, looking at this, a
(25:20):
man's, you know, and then themom.
And so we took that 12 weekclass.
It was Saturday mornings, twoand a half hours.
We were in the room with 16other family members, and that
was the first time that Irealized wait, we're not alone.
I realized that this was, and Ieven thought, I said is this
something that just happens toblack people?
(25:41):
I really thought that this wassomething rare.
You know, that was happeningand I learned, and I learned,
you know, through that class.
It was amazing because ittaught us that my son didn't
have a character flaw, that ittruly was a medical condition
affecting his brain, thattreatment was that, in finding
(26:04):
the right treatment, that hecould live a quality life, and
that's what.
Then it became a mission fromthat class and also in that
class, the two teachersapproached me and I said, oh, am
I talking too much or what?
But they kind of during a break, and they said you know, we,
this class, just like we'remothers, and we were taught and
(26:25):
certified to teach this.
It's always taught by peers,it's taught by people with the
same lived experience, and wethink you'd be a good teacher.
And I was like I have ademanding, you know, full-time
job at the bank.
I was a.
Was I a VP?
I think yeah, I was, you know,a manager.
And I was like, ah, I just, youknow, I don't know if I would
(26:48):
have time for that, whatever.
But I said I just, you know, Idon't know if I would have time
for that whatever.
But I said, ok, put my name onthe list.
And I remember that I did go tothe certification training and I
met even more people who wereagain like me.
They were family members, somewere siblings, some were parents
, some were, you know,grandparents who had taken the
(27:13):
course, and they were beingtrained to teach it in their
communities or wherever.
So it just then started.
Something grew in me at thattime.
I was like I think I'd been inbanking, by this point, 30 years
.
I was a VP and a businesssystems analyst and I worked for
Union Bank of California thenthat's the name went back and
forth a few times and I was likeset, ready to cruise on into
(27:36):
retirement, right.
But I remember that I was joinedthe board of NAMI San Diego and
I was like, ok, it's somethingI want to do, this, I need to be
here, I want to talk toespecially my community.
I wanted to speak to theAfrican-American community about
mental health.
We treated it differently.
(27:56):
You know, it was a secret.
There's movies that I canidentify where that person with
mental illness was there in thefamily.
You saw him in the back room,upstairs, but they took care of
them, you know.
And but no, there is adifferent kind of help.
There is a way where thatperson can live, you know again,
(28:17):
a good quality life.
And I wanted to bring all thisto whoever not you know, my
community and whoever and so Iremember asking the executive
director.
I said you know, I don't knowwhat, what you know with, what
my background is, what I wouldbring here, you know, but if
there's ever a job, just youknow and they had received a
(28:39):
contract for where they weregoing to be able to do that
course and they needed a programmanager.
And I quit my job, you know, atthe bank, yes, with a long
discussion with my husband, andI did a spreadsheet and
everything you know to show himthe numbers, yes, how much I
could make.
And I needed to make, actuallyto make things.
(29:01):
And and I always am grateful tomy husband that he agreed he
said I knew that you needed todo something with this.
I said I don't have the heartto even go to work anymore.
This is what I need to do.
So I did become that family tofamily teacher and now I've been
teaching that course for still20 years, even when I became the
(29:22):
education director at NAMI SanDiego, every year at least once
I taught in person that that nowit's eight weeks.
But that course for families Ifacilitate for support groups.
I still do that.
I still.
I'm what they call a statetrainer, so I now train other
(29:42):
people to do it through thestate.
I serve on the NAMI Californiaboard.
I've done things through thenational.
I've just.
I might as well have a NAMItattoo.
Yes, because I'm very muchingrained in it, even though I
retired in 2018.
And now I want to go back againand talk about my son and why.
A lot of this, too, is becausewhen he started to go to jail
(30:07):
and then prison because of thatmandatory sentencing, he didn't
rape, kill, beat nothing,anybody.
He was sitting in prison withhardened criminals because he
was addicted to drugs and had amental illness that was
untreated and that it wasuntreated in a way where I
(30:29):
couldn't get him into.
He had to agree he had rightsand we're going to talk about
rights in a minute and I waslike I believe nobody can
believe more in rights andfreedoms than a black woman.
You know a person and but whenit is harmful to you, there is a
point in time where involuntarytreatment is needed and my son
(30:54):
would hit every roadblock.
But there would be a time, oncehe was in the system, he would
be in the mental health units.
The thank God that the prisonsdid have units for designated
for individuals like that, and Iremember even serving on a
state committee with a familymembers with the California
(31:18):
Department of Corrections.
They were doing kind of a youknow to say how can we serve
this population better?
Not, like you, know whenthey're released.
No one knows when they'rereleased, what time, what day,
and they drop them off at a busstop, sometimes in another city.
I've heard horror stories.
Over the years it has gottenmuch, much better warm handoffs
to reentry programs and things.
(31:39):
I actually was appointed byGovernor Newsom to the Council
on Criminal Justice andBehavioral Health.
We just sunset it though thatcommittee.
It had been around for 10, over10 years, but we, you know,
because I wanted to bring thatfamily member voice.
Everything I do is aboutbringing the family perspective
(32:02):
so that our stories, because Ihear them.
I have three calls right nowthat I'm going to have to return
this afternoon from familymembers who may have been in a
class or a group and they're incrisis.
Yes, there are crisis numbersyou know to call.
There's the accessing crisisline and all of that, but
sometimes you need to talk withthat person to help you
(32:23):
strategize.
That's been in the trenches,you know, and that's what I do.
I am not a helpline.
I do have a little website andI have a phone number in a you
know so that people can find me.
But that was not initially myintent.
(32:44):
I wanted to be a voice of thefamily to the treatment
community, the behavioral healthcommunity.
That's why I have to serve onboards.
You know several boards, youknow parents for addiction
treatment and healing, awonderful organization that
helped because before mentalillness and substance use
(33:06):
disorder was separate.
You know they.
You have to go down this path.
You have to be clean and soberbefore you can treat this and
all of that.
Well, they finally, you know,merged the two and realized they
need to treat both together.
But that organization, you knowthey now do the Narcan
distribution.
I serve on the CommunityResearch Foundation, which is a
provider here in San DiegoCounty of behavior health
(33:27):
services, of Behavioral HealthServices, and but it's always
again about bringing that familymember voice.
My son has had periods of whatwe call they call recovery.
You know recovery not cure.
There is no cure but recoverymeans that he is maintaining his
medication regimen.
(33:47):
He got a lot of great peertraining, meaning there's a
peer-to-peer course that NAMIoffers that tells them how to
live successfully with what theyhave, how to set themselves up
for success and live thatquality life that I've always
wanted for both my children.
Right, he became a mentor, hebecame a secretary at his NA
(34:13):
group.
When NAMI San Diego had ahelpline contract, he was one of
the first hired, not because ofme, but on his own, and he
worked on that helpline and Iwas like, okay, thank God, we
got there, this is over.
He's probably close to 30 yearsold at this point because it
(34:34):
started at 21 and we get jail,prison, homelessness.
You know all of that andfinally it seems like we were on
that.
You know upward, you know and,and we're over.
He understands it all now.
Well, anytime he stops hismedication, we're back at square
one, and square one is thatanosognosia.
(34:55):
I'm not sick, I don't need help.
That's the name of the book, drJavier Amador's book.
And he realized he, his brother, had schizophrenia as well.
And he realized I'm a clinician, I am a psychologist, you know,
he's been on CNN and everywhere.
Clinician, I am a psychologist,you know, he's been on CNN and
everywhere.
And I can't, you know, even getmy brother.
(35:16):
You know, what am I not doingright?
And he realized it was how hewas talking to his brother and
he developed the LEAP methodthat stands for listen,
empathize, agree and partner.
And it's a wonderful book andit can work, not just with
mental health just saying withanything, yes, yes, with
anything exactly and but that isa method, he said, that you
(35:38):
know can work very well with umindividuals.
You know in, like you said, in alot of different um situations.
But but the anosognosia part,that's what he was.
He realized that his brother,the lack of insight, and he said
there's a part of the brainthat can be affected and it
(36:00):
could be an accident.
He said that he worked withpatients who had traumatic brain
injuries and he, one gentleman,lost his arm in an accident and
he didn't believe the arm wasgone because that part of his
brain had been damaged in theaccident.
And he says well then, how comeyou can't write?
Well, then, write us a note.
(36:21):
And he says you guys have myarm tied down.
He kept giving excuses.
Well, this is the same thingthat we sometimes, when someone
with mental illness hasanosognosia as well, those
excuses, and we would hear thatfrom my son.
We would say but look what youjust did, you were, you know
this, this.
And he was like well, you guysare, that was in the past or you
(36:44):
know, it seemed, you know, itseemed to be trying to justify
trying to justify, excuse me thebehavior.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, Okay, and we'll link.
I'll link to that book as wellin the show notes.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Oh, great yeah, I think that would be good, mm-hmm
and so and even though I waslike, but remember you used to
get up my son was alwaysmeticulous about how he looked
his dress, get his hair cutevery week and get the little
lines in it.
And you know the tennis shoesmatch the hat and you know he
always, I remember he'd goshopping and get all the little
(37:21):
polo shirts to wear to work.
So he'd look professional andyou know.
And then here's someone thatwouldn't bathe for a week and
had filthy clothes on and raggedclothes that I don't even know
where they would come fromsometimes and basically live in
the street.
I don't know how many times.
I can't even tell you how manytimes my son has lived in the
street or in Balboa Park, youknow, and it would be because we
(37:44):
would try to find him or hewould eventually call when he
would say I need food orsomething.
And you know I would go and wewould try to take him food and
try to get him to come off ofthe streets and get help.
And my frustration, all of theseyears it's been what?
Almost 20, it's been 25 yearsnow because he just turned 47
(38:07):
years old April 22nd, turned 47years old April 22nd and all of
these years my biggestfrustration has been that, well,
we can't force him.
He has to, you know, ask forhelp.
We have a lot of wonderfulgreat.
I know them all because Iworked within the system under
NAMI, so so I know all of theresources, I know the programs,
(38:33):
but unless that person willinglygoes in and raises their hand,
it doesn't work.
Yes, you can call for PERT.
I'm on the PERT board too, theadvisory board, and I speak at
the PERT Academy.
You know the PsychiatricEmergency Response Team but
again, a lot of times, unlessthat person is exhibiting a
(38:58):
danger to self or others at thatmoment in time that law
enforcement may be there.
With or without a clinician,that person may be left behind
and you know they can promise myson would do that.
Oh yeah, I'll call my doctor.
Yeah, I'll take my meds.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
And they'd just leave them.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
And they'd leave them .
Yeah, and so this is a lot ofthe advocacy work that I'm doing
right now with some familiesfrom across the state, some that
I've never met in person beforeto this day.
But care court was a part ofthat.
That was families frustratedsaying you know they're skirting
(39:38):
around that.
Gravely disabled.
You know gravely disabled, thelaw, you know the welfare
institution codes.
Yes, those codes are out therethat says if a person is unable
to provide food, shelter.
You know all of that.
And we said look on the street,like you just said, the person
(40:02):
you may almost ran over thismorning.
Why is that person in thatalley?
They obviously are gravelydisabled.
So why hasn't someone come and,in a client centered,
compassionate way, giving themthe services they need, even if
it's involuntary?
Because once my son isstabilized involuntarily guess
(40:25):
what?
Then he's able to walk out intothe world and live a
semi-independent life.
I always put semi in there.
But he is, he functions hisbrain still.
I said all the stuff you'vebeen through.
I'm surprised that when he isstable in that medication I
remember they used to call it achemical imbalance.
(40:46):
I don't hear them refer to itlike that before, but it's
always made it easier for me tocomprehend what's going on in
the brain, you know, and thatcertain levels are off and just
like I have prediabetes or Itake medication for something,
that's because something is offin my body and I need it to
stabilize it.
And I don't think my family ifI decided you know, I don't like
(41:10):
that, this medicine makes megain weight, so I don't want to
take.
And I don't think my family ifI decided you know I don't like
that, this medicine makes megain weight so I don't want to
take it.
I don't think my, my, theywould probably be able to
involuntarily take me to ahospital if it was killing me.
Um and, and this is the thingthat when my son is off of his
medication and in the streets, Ihave to plan a funeral.
(41:31):
I said this during an interviewrecently I don't know if it was
on the 60 Minutes one aboutcare court, but I remember that
many families say that they sayI don't know if they're going to
be, and I have attended far toomany funerals of people dying
before their family, theirparents, just because they
(41:51):
couldn't get them help, whetherit was an overdose or whether it
was, you know something theydid.
I remember a young woman here inSan Diego who I knew from
working with her.
She was a peer that's how wenormally, you know, distinguish
family member or peer personwith lived experience, family
(42:13):
member or a peer person withlived experience and her, her
symptoms returned and she wasdriving her car and she ended up
in Los Angeles and the policefelt threatened, they shot,
she's dead and she was a mom.
You know there's been horrorstories.
They don't always get the.
No one knows the backstory.
You know she was.
She had her law degree.
You know no one knows who shewas.
(42:34):
They only see the sensationalstory.
So normally, what you see in thepaper about mental illness, I
have a dear mom friend that Iknew for over 10 years that I
met in one of the.
She's actually wanted me tostart a support group for people
who have a loved one withmental illness in jail or prison
and I used to do the group andshe was sort of the person that
(42:56):
brought in all the moms thatshe'd meet in the visiting rooms
.
Her son was in prison andbecause of something he did
while in psychosis and he gotout, she was so happy and
unfortunately, in 2022, 2023, hetook her life.
Those are stories that.
(43:16):
No, and I don't want to putthat out there.
Most, most statistically,people with mental illness are
more likely to have violenceagainst them.
So it's not.
But I want to just say, youknow, we can't hide the fact
that untreated mental illnesscan be, yes, a danger to self or
others.
If it's not, so why do we fightso hard against involuntary
(43:42):
treatment?
No, if someone has a melt andoh my God, I'm so sick, no one's
going to call the PERT team onyou.
You know that's not what we'retalking about.
We're talking about okay, thisis getting dangerous for this
person.
You know this person has beenout in the streets no telling
what kind of disease they'repicking up out here.
(44:02):
You know they're not eating.
My son has been skeletal.
I remember going to visit himin jail and every jail or prison
he's ever been in, except, oh,I'll tell you about them putting
him in Pelican Bay.
I have gone to visit himbecause I wanted him to know he
has a loving family behind him.
He shouldn't be here.
(44:22):
He used to even say that oncehe would get stable on
medication and he might be goingto a group, people would say,
well, how did you get here?
I know why I'm here, you knowI'm a gang member or something,
but how did you end up here withthese?
You know in this place, youknow based on just how you speak
, how you, what you talk aboutyour life, and that is
(44:45):
unfortunate.
And so my fight has been one tokeep him out of a jail or a
prison.
But it doesn't happen.
In the last three years he'sbeen in jail.
When he stopped his medication,we just came out of a crisis
situation with him and he isalso.
I was one of the first probably.
(45:06):
I believe they said theirinitial care court petitions
were 50 in 2023, october 2023,when it started here in San
Diego County, and I'm sure I wasone of those first 50, because
on Thanksgiving Eve of that yearI was driving downtown to the
(45:28):
courthouse.
I wanted to hand deliver thatpetition and get it filed
because he was decompensating.
I was like maybe we can catchhim this time.
It's in the early stages, butunfortunately that's not what
happens.
He didn't end up being caughtin time.
He was evicted from his lovelyapartment in Little Italy
(45:51):
because he had stopped his meds,he had and deteriorated and he
was back on the streets, and sowhat do you?
Speaker 1 (46:01):
want me to stop.
Stop me in time.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Okay and unfortunately the program has
not worked out.
That's not what I advocated forand many, many, many families
across the state.
As a matter of fact, there aretwo bills that we are that are
(46:23):
right now in the legislature tomake some amendments to the CARE
Act and the gravely disabledlaw, the Latimer-Pettus-Short
they call it LPS law because itis still not working for people
with SMI and that's adesignation.
(46:43):
There's a spectrum of mentalillness and we're talking about
the people who end up here onthat high end that are
considered to have seriousmental illness, and that's where
my son sits when he is not onhis medication.
When he is on his medication,guess what?
He's way down here, in the verylow range, where a person might
(47:07):
not even know.
You know, sitting and talkingwith him would not know that he
is diagnosed with paranoidschizophrenia.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
So thank you for sharing that impactful and
ongoing story right, we're in it, we're in it.
Still right now, just coming outof crisis, and I'd imagine that
as a family, you live with thehope and the fear and the
(47:37):
trepidation all at the same time, at all times.
Um, how have your extendedfamily members and or neighbors,
acquaintances, colleagues,reacted and what?
What has that been like?
I think I saw you on on one ofthe youtube interviews that you
(48:02):
did talk about.
You know, if your son had aninjury and broke his leg,
someone would come over with acasserole for you and, hey, what
can I do?
Can I drive him to his nextappointment?
Very different in a situationlike this.
Talk to us a little bit aboutwhat that experience has been
(48:24):
like, perhaps the stigma comingto grips with that?
Speaker 2 (48:28):
Yeah, when we first moved here, the house that we
lived in was in a cul-de-sac andI remember so everything was
very visible that when we didhave to call for the PERT team
there was one, two, three, foursheriff's cars, you know, kind
of just just surrounding the andI said, oh my God, the
neighbor's going to say whatkind of people are they?
(48:50):
You know well who's living overthere that requires all this
police.
And then I remember that I cameout of the house and the next
door neighbor, I said youprobably saw the police out here
and you know he's, he has amental illness.
I said she says, oh, girl, Igot mental illness all
throughout my family, you know.
(49:10):
So that was you know.
For that when I was like, okay,see, you never know.
I probably should have beentalking to her a long time ago
about it, cause she had a lot ofexperience in her family and as
far as our family, my, mysister, very close sister,
brother, nephews and whatever,because of my education through
(49:30):
that class and my work at NAMI,and they knew I changed careers
and all of that I educated myfamily.
So we have holiday pictureswhere sometimes he looks well
and sometimes not so well, buthe's in that picture and
everyone embraces him.
No, he's not in the room, he'snot in the back room and he will
(49:50):
go and come and I'll tell them.
I say, you know, pharaoh's notdoing so well right now, Like if
it's my turn to hostThanksgiving.
He will come and go as he wants.
He may come out and eat with usand then he might go in the
room.
He doesn't live with us anymorenow and I've made that kind of
(50:15):
a.
He can always spend the night,maybe if he's well, but I
realize that for my husband andI we're both retired peace of
mind.
He can't live at home.
I believe that that issomething I'm preparing him for
the future.
When we're not here, you knowthat he has to know how to
manipulate not manipulate, butknow how to navigate.
I'm trying to say you know thesystem and live in and that's
why he's living where he is now,you know.
(50:36):
But I want to kind of backtrackon something you said earlier
about.
You know those, those, thoseemotions that I have to live
with those three.
There is a study done by theNational Association of
Caregivers Finally, they did itin 2016 of people like us.
(50:56):
You know, are we caregivers ornot?
You know there's not the ADLsand all of that, but the name of
the report at the end they wantto say what are we going to
name this?
They called it on pins andneedles and that is such a true
statement.
Yes, they said 8.3 millionpeople like me that I just
described my story in somevariation that are out here in
(51:21):
America living like this.
So we do live that way.
But also, kind of into yourcurrent question, you know about
the stigma, the self stigma,the stigma around it.
I am all about.
I've talked at churches.
I I am always out there, youknow, showing that this is a
(51:42):
human condition.
You know we wouldn't punishsomeone for having cancer and
then cancer coming back, youknow, sits in remission and
comes back again.
You know we have to show thatand I said and yeah, a lot of
times that I can be frustrated.
Still, you know, or like, comeon, not again, why would you
(52:02):
know what?
You know what happens when youstop your meds.
So I do can get frustrated aswell with that, because I know
that it's going to be bad forhim, that he is going to
decompensate to a point, but Istill, you know.
That's why I still do what I do.
As long as I can talk and stand, I will be, you know, talking
about this.
(52:23):
To make it normal, you know, toshow the world or the community
that many of those people andwhen I talk to law enforcement
like I'm going to be talking tolaw enforcement tomorrow and I
always want to put that familyface I say, you know, I have a
video, I have a slideshow that Iuse and one of them is my son
(52:47):
doing.
Well, he has a great video outthere, his self telling his
story that he did for the countyand I show that.
And then I say now this is whoyou're probably going to meet
and he's on the streets.
(53:07):
But I want you to remember thatthat person has probably has a
family just like his, you know,probably a mom, a dad, a sister,
a brother, someone out there,grandparents that are looking
for them, maybe, or they themjust not understanding that that
family wants to be a supportand help to them.
And I can see the light bulbs.
I can see it, you know, when Ilook in their eyes.
(53:28):
And we do a panel actually atthe Pert Academy of people with
lived experience that have hadlaw enforcement contact and
family members like myself,someone who lost their loved one
actually her husband to suicide, and you know what you come up
on, and I know that it reallymakes a difference for them to
(53:50):
see the backstory in that person, like we all have a backstory.
And so that is what you know,the purpose of us doing that
lived experience panel.
You know, because they are thefirst responders, you know law
enforcement.
I never thought I told you theguys in the white jacket where
were?
You know, I thought they wouldbe the first responders, but it
(54:11):
is not.
It is law enforcement.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
Are there states, perhaps municipalities, that do
a better job than we do?
Speaker 2 (54:24):
Well, I have been to many NAMI national conferences
and we speak and share and ourtopics are around all of that.
I think it's a struggle acrossthe country.
Yeah, and even here we now havea mobile crisis response team
that does not involve lawenforcement.
Here in San Diego it is.
(54:44):
You know, they do come in, Ithink, a SUV or you know a van
or something, but the personcannot be.
They have to absolutely notneed any kind of restraint, if
you will, and by the timesomeone meets the criteria of a
(55:06):
danger to self or others, that'sunfortunate.
That's what I'm saying.
Why do we treat them at stagefour instead of here in the
beginning?
You know stage.
So a lot of times you do needlaw enforcement for that, for
the safety of everyone.
Speaker 1 (55:21):
Which is that's my understanding, is that that's
kind of the stage that wouldtrigger like a 72-hour hold or
something.
Yes, that's kind of always whatyou hear right, yes.
Danger to yourself or others.
Yes 72-hour hold and thenthat's it.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
Yeah, and where is that?
And that's where some of theother programs and even when I
was at NAMI I was a programmanager for the NAMI portion of
a program that met people inthat San Diego County
Psychiatric Hospital the programis still there where the peers
and they would say, hey, youknow, I've been here, you know I
(55:59):
can help you.
When you get ready to leave Ourprogram can walk out the door
with you.
Basically, that's somethingthat wouldn't happen.
Like I said, instead of saying,okay, discharge, here you go,
here's a paper with all thesethings you got to do.
Go to appointment here, go getyour medicine there, go, you
know, and and leave that to aperson that is coming out, like
they said, someone with thebroken leg or just some surgery,
(56:21):
and someone's going to say, now, come on, I'll help you with
your appointments, I'm bringingthe casserole, whatever.
That doesn't happen in mentalhealth, you know.
And so they are developing alot of programs that are
supporting that transition froma hospital, you know, using peer
supports, which Iwholeheartedly, I really I know
(56:43):
that that was the most effective, you know, in addition to his
medication, you know, was peersupports and things like that,
where you're really.
You know, you have that backup.
Speaker 1 (56:57):
So what the care courts?
You know, you hear GovernorNewsom talk about that a lot and
my very, very basicunderstanding of and I'm not
even sure it's that accurate butsome of the narrative says that
during the Reagan, before theReagan administration, there
were I don't know, I'm going tocall it just for round number
(57:19):
100,000 beds for mental illnessin the state of California, and
then by the time the Reaganadministration finished, I don't
know, let's say it went down by90% or something that's when
the state was maybe half thepopulation that it is now.
(57:39):
What do the care courts do andhow can they fit into that?
And then, what more do we needapart from, in addition to your
stance on the involuntary stagecoming way earlier?
What else do we need?
Speaker 2 (57:57):
Well and I'm glad you brought that up, because, yeah,
that is what happened, ofcourse, when they closed those
facilities, which a lot of themwere horrible- and they weren't
doing what they should have beendoing.
Yeah, what we saw in the movies.
But those services weresupposed to transition into the
community.
It was supposed to be a nicecommunity, a mental health
(58:19):
clinic or or a place for peopleyou know, all spread around that
no one could be on the streets.
It never happened, right, sothat's one thing.
It never happened.
Even with the Mental HealthServices Act that was supposed
to be a great deal.
You know, that's themillionaire's tax, that one
percent over a million dollarsthat goes into behavioral health
(58:39):
services.
That was supposed to help withthat.
And I'm not even saying that weneed, when we say beds, not
somewhere that, okay, you knowyou messed up three times.
We're going to lock you awaynow forever.
You can't live in the community.
No, it should becommunity-based services and I
like to, I think, in a homeenvironment, you know, a
(59:01):
home-like environment.
But it's all about, yes,funding, and it's really scary
right now because a lot ofthings that used to trinkle down
that would end up from federalto state into the communities
that could help with that.
A lot of that is going away.
Helping with housing, likehaving an apartment complex my
(59:24):
thing is having a old taking ahotel and, you know, remodeling
it to housing where, you know, Idon't think grown people should
ever have to share a room.
I think that you know so.
Everyone needs their privacy.
I think they should be little,nice studios within.
You know the building that, Itell you, my son lives in now.
The only thing missing insideit's great, it's walk out the
(59:48):
door.
That's a whole differentsituation, but there's no
services in the building.
That is not a building, that'sa low-income housing structure,
but if they put the services inthere, that would be a perfect
place.
Someone that could have oh, Ithink he didn't check in today.
Keep a watchful eye.
Yeah, keep a watchful eye.
(01:00:09):
Something's going on there.
Maybe we need to call his casemanager, his counselor, a
wraparound, but they still liveand they can go and come as they
please.
Someone, though, is keeping aneye.
That, to me, is the idealsituation Client-centered, but
the clinical services and thesupports are still right there
on site and kind of tying thatinto care court.
(01:00:35):
Care court is, I think, the restof the.
There were like six, eightcounties that started it in 2023
.
Eight counties that started itin 2023.
Then the following year is whenthe rest of the states, and
it's basically it has no teeth.
Let's put it like that, meaningthere's a judge, there's the
(01:00:58):
judge's staff, there's thecounty people, there's a public
defender that represents my sonand they have a team.
You know one of the providerorganizations here does the.
You know the outreach andwhatever work, and they're
wonderful.
I always want to say that thepeople who do the work on the
(01:01:19):
ground I am never complainingabout them.
They can only do and work withwhat they have.
But the structure of the pro ofthe program is not what it was
supposed to be Like.
I said we were on that 60minutes interview and one thing
that I said I hope I never haveto use it and what?
It was a totally differentprogram that I had read about
(01:01:41):
when I did that interview inmaybe the spring of 2023, and
what rolled out in October of2023, something totally
different.
It turned into anothervoluntary program.
Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
And what do you think is behind that change?
Just that people don't want toget sued, or it's not a good
look?
Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Right, right yeah there's a strong, very strong
disability rights in the stateof California and and they stand
on the nobody should doanything involuntarily.
So they go in their lawyers.
You know the disability, theyhave a lot of lawyers.
We're just family members.
You know, some people arelawyers too, that that are in
(01:02:22):
the family member, which is whysome of the amendments that we
have been trying to put forththat's who helps us craft all
that in a group that I'm in, astatewide gravely disabled work
group, and they're, you know,they're providers, they're, you
know, a lot of people that seewhat needs to happen.
So we have to try to go backnow legislatively and make it
(01:02:47):
have some more teeth, you know,but that's what we normally are
fighting they are very muchagainst.
Here in San Diego Countythere's a patient advocacy
organization, lawyers and staffthat will go into the hospitals
where people are on aconservatorship.
Because my son was on aconservatorship once, which he
(01:03:07):
needed, and I said, just maybesix months, three months, no, he
was there, maybe 30 days, butbecause he was doing so well,
they were able to convince theconservatorship, whatever judge
that he should be released.
Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
He was back in the streets within four weeks least
he was back in the streetswithin four weeks, I think.
The Britney Spears thing itjust occurred to me, as you were
saying, that it probably didn'tdo the whole conservatorship
conversation much good right.
Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
I'm not I don't.
Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
I can't comment on her case, but that brings
everybody up into everybody'sminds like, oh, it's a bad thing
, Conservatorship is bad.
You know, that's restrictingsomeone's freedom.
But as you describe in yourson's case, like you know, as
parents you're not going to letyour when your child was young
(01:04:01):
and vulnerable.
You're not going to let themjust wander around in traffic.
You know you have to pull themback and then you don't just
keep them out of traffic one day, you keep them out of traffic
until they're old enough towhere they can learn some of
those things Right.
Right Gradual release.
Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
Yeah, and she wasn't locked away anywhere either.
She still lived on her own.
She had the fact.
I said she has money and and itwas guardrails that saved her.
You know, I don't know how youknow she's doing that, but I
would love to know.
But it may not be good, but, um, that is is what that's the
(01:04:38):
part.
Right there I said but youdon't understand, especially
when you have a historical lookat I told 25 years.
So I know I can look in hiseyes and know, yeah, in the
beginning, yeah, I said, oh, no,did he stop?
And then I'll ask my husband,like if he was when he was, you
know, living at home, and evenif my son was visiting or
(01:05:00):
something, and I'd say, are younoticing it?
Kind of, because he starts topull away, you could pass him in
the kitchen or the hallway, noeye contact, and he's a very you
know, he has a very good senseof humor.
So he's going to say somethingfunny or say, mom, you want to
watch a movie, or you know,whatever.
You know, and all of the thingsthat he wants, and this has to
(01:05:25):
be a mind that is notfunctioning well, all the things
he wants he can actually haveif he was just stay in treatment
.
And I know the medication sideeffects are horrible.
I've heard it from many people,my staff when I worked for NAMI
(01:05:47):
.
I had up to 15 people before Ileft and they were all peers or
family members like myself, andthey had master's degrees, they
were married, they had children,but they said, yep, I carry
around 15, 20 pounds of extraweight but I have a life.
You know, some people can makethat distinction.
(01:06:10):
People with anosognosia cannot.
And so he could have all thethings you know a wife, a
girlfriend, you know childrenand have a quality life, but his
mind can't.
And I said after 25 years, don'tyou think that maybe a
conservatorship for him to stayon his meds?
(01:06:31):
That's all he needs is aconservatorship like, kind of
like the Britney Spears whenhers was about money though,
because she had a lot of money,but for him it would be that
they would never see him in ajail again.
They would never, just like,like my younger son, never been
to jail, never been arrested,never.
You know he was that kid, youknow he was that man, but never
(01:06:54):
would he have ever hit the jailor prison.
He probably has a rap sheet thelength of this room, but it was
all behind whenever he was andI said you notice he never gets
arrested when he's on his meds.
So you know there's so manyhistorical things that can be
used to me to say, yeah, we'vegiven you a whole bunch of
(01:07:14):
chances to do it voluntarily andit seems like you want to be
ending up back at the same spotagain.
Speaker 1 (01:07:22):
We're going to help you out with that again, we're
going to help you out with that.
How much of your conversationsintersect with entities who are
working to try to address theissue, which seems almost
unaddressable, of homelessnessjust in our county, our state
(01:07:45):
and our country, because there'sI mean, you described Pharaoh's
journey and recursivelyinvolved homelessness.
I'm sure that, extrapolatingfrom that, there are 5,000 cases
down the hill from here thatare very similar in a lot of
ways.
Right, right, how much of thework that you've seen of, let's
(01:08:07):
say, the city of San Diegotrying to address homelessness
also intersects with NAMI andthat work, yeah, understanding,
I know you're working withTraining Pert.
That's part of it From asolution standpoint.
Speaker 2 (01:08:22):
Yes, all of it intersects the programs at NAMI.
Nami opened up a clubhouse heredowntown, not too far from here
.
That is for people who arehomeless, that may have mental
health issues.
They can come in there.
They even do the showers theydo.
So NAMI has become a solutionspace.
It used to be education,advocacy and you know like
(01:08:47):
support groups.
Yes, yes and things, but nowthey're in the community doing
the work.
So, yes, they do work withMayor Gloria and the Behavioral
Health.
They are part of the system nowthat is also providing services
.
We have other clubhouses aswell in San Diego County, and so
(01:09:07):
, yes, it is about what theyalways stood for, you know,
education, support and advocacy,but they also now are doing the
on the ground, hoping to touchbut that is one way, like they
say the homelessness they dohave.
You know, one residential home.
Actually, it was a personpassed away that had started
this home many years ago.
(01:09:29):
It's in North County though,but she willed it to NAMI to say
continue this work, and itwould be great.
But what does it always take?
Money, money.
Speaker 1 (01:09:40):
It's always about the money it's money, and it's also
people being willing to have itin their neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (01:09:46):
Oh yes, yes, the NIMBYism is real.
The NIMBYism is real.
Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
Yeah yeah, recovery home, whatever.
It's nice, but just don't putit on my block.
Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And actually where Pharaoh wasjust a few months ago, it was a
very quiet little street andthey normally under what they
call the ILF, the IndependentLiving Association.
They are homes.
They're not facilities or bighotels, they are home-like
(01:10:17):
environments where they get hotcooked meals and so on, and the
residents are, yes, of course,allowed to go and come.
But they say you know, at nightyou got to turn the, you know,
you know you have to be in by acertain time, you know can't be
loud and just like you can'tnormally.
So that is another solution.
We do have those, but it'salways not enough.
(01:10:38):
There is a lot of, like I said,great things going on in San
Diego, but it is not enough alot of times.
Speaker 1 (01:10:48):
So if you could wave a magic wand, it sounds like you
would change the structure sothat there could be that
involuntary intervention early.
There could be that involuntaryintervention early, obviously
(01:11:08):
more education ongoing to removesome of the stigma.
It sounds like when you were inyour own crisis point of like,
hey, my kid needs help.
Now they're like here, takethis class.
That you would recommend thatfor people, right?
Yes so we'll definitely link toNemi's website and those
(01:11:29):
resources.
What about the role of culturein the way that we respond to
issues of mental health?
Do you run into?
Depending on what communityyou're working in?
Do you run into?
Depending on what communityyou're working in, different
communities must have differentreactions and understandings of
(01:11:53):
mental health, I'd imagine right.
Speaker 2 (01:11:55):
Yes, absolutely.
In my role at NAMI when I wasthe education director, there
were five threshold languages.
So whenever you had a contractwith the county you had to make
sure you provide it.
So I got to work with manycommunities.
Like we had a contract with aVietnamese social services
(01:12:19):
organization where the materialwas translated to be in there
and not just word for word.
It was like culturally itneeded to be so to serve the
Vietnamese community.
We did it in Arabic.
We have a large Chaldeanpopulation, especially in the
East County.
I worked with that agency.
They were trained and theywouldn't take a training from a
(01:12:43):
peer.
Remember I told you the NAMIprograms are peer-to-peer type
training.
They said, oh no, that personhas to be a person who is a
doctor or what.
Speaker 1 (01:12:52):
So that's how they did that cultural piece.
Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
So that's how that one was taught for that Spanish,
of course we did, you knowSpanish population, we did it.
And I remember that we weretold, because it said two and a
half hours and we would you know, we didn't have enough funding
to, you know, rent all thesedifferent places because we used
to have to do 20 classes a yearand for the families and
(01:13:17):
another 15 classes for the peercommunity.
Well, that was a lot of spacesgoing on for eight and 12 weeks.
Well, that was a lot of spacesgoing on for eight and 12 weeks,
and so we didn't have money todo that.
So we would be at the mercy of,like a church that would let us
, or a community center,something that was free.
Well, a lot of times we said,yes, this is a two and a half
hour class with a half hour for,you know, cleanup and set up
(01:13:39):
and whatever.
Well, and I remember one of theSpanish speaking facilitators
said to me they said you know,we like we talk, we have to talk
, we have to have food, we haveto.
So we needed more time.
So we knew we needed to addmore time.
So we always, you know,addressed it in that way.
(01:13:59):
So, yeah, that was English,spanish, arabic and Vietnamese.
We had one more, yeah, becausethe Arabic was for Caldean, and
that was one more.
Yeah, I know, we saidVietnamese.
Yeah, because I just remember.
Yeah, maybe that was the five,including English of course, but
(01:14:20):
that was the most.
That was the best thing I usedto love to go to the graduations
.
Is that the last class of athreshold language?
But older adults, you know,just like my son now is in that
category of an older adultliving a serious mental illness.
Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
Yeah he's.
Speaker 2 (01:14:44):
You know, it was really 50 and above, but he's
almost there, and so we did aclass that was geared towards
that population.
They have different needs, sothat's cultural too.
So yeah, so that's cultural too.
Speaker 1 (01:14:57):
So yeah, yeah.
It's a fascinating study ofhumanity right and the role of
communities, the role of family.
How has your younger sonhandled this?
It's got to be an interestingbalance at home, right?
Oh yes, it's going to be aninteresting balance at home,
(01:15:21):
right?
Oh yes, to raise a son, toraise both your sons, who you,
you, you each, you, you loveeach of them, 100 with 100 of
your being but that's what itmeans to be a parent.
Yes, but they have differentneeds.
And so did you ever findyourself looking to your younger
son and going oh man, I man, Iwish you know we need to invest
more time in you, but we havethis, just this kind of burning
building over here?
Speaker 2 (01:15:41):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:15:42):
How does, how does a family manage that?
Speaker 2 (01:15:45):
We have talked about that recent, and one of the
things that I'm glad that we didis he was too young to come to
family, to family.
So everything we learned, wecome home and tell him and talk
to him.
I wanted him to understand whatwas going on with his brother.
Then he went out of state tocollege and I remember when he
(01:16:10):
came home, my son was still thenliving at home with us and he,
as soon as he left, he just hitthe bottom, you know.
As soon as he left, he just hitthe bottom, you know, and I
said, oh, they pick.
And I remember he was sittingin his dorm and he cried and I
hadn't seen my son cry since hewas a little boy, you know,
something scraped his knee and Isaid, oh my God, I'm never
(01:16:33):
going to tell him again.
When he's not doing well, hejust it hurt him so bad.
And they have a lovelyrelationship right now.
But when he was younger Iremember he played all kind of
sports and whatever.
So my husband would go that waywith him, I would be over here
finding, trying to do whatever.
And I remember he said and Iasked him, you know, because I
(01:16:55):
remember that our former CEO ofNAMI was did it wrote a book
actually about the sibling.
She was a sibling and she wrotea book and she was interviewing
siblings of individuals.
And I remember he said I justremember you weren't at a lot of
my games on Saturday, I justremember you weren't at a lot of
(01:17:20):
my games on Saturday and thatthat kind of Dad I know dad was
there but you weren't there, youknow.
So I did it, did take away andI even and I'm so glad you asked
me that, because a lot of timesI'll go through this story,
this, so I make sure that evenin my presentations I have
family pictures I said, yeah, Ihave another son you know, who's
a great guy, you know, and Iwant to talk about him some you
(01:17:40):
know a little bit as well.
So I always try to rememberthat, yes, that there is another
son, that another family memberyou know, immediate family
member that's also has livedthis.
You know, in his adult years hehas gone to clean out hotel
rooms, motel rooms, apartments,went to the streets and I
(01:18:05):
remember he, when he first camehome he was working downtown and
he said, mom, he where he lived, he would ride the trolley to
work and he said I left earliertoday because I wanted to stop
at my bank and get some moneybefore I went in and I get off
(01:18:26):
at the stop earlier.
And then I just walked the restof the way.
He said literally in acrosswalk, and he looked and he
said Pharaoh, it was his brother.
I said but God, I'm a spiritualperson.
I said that's God.
And I said what he said.
Yeah, he'd been out therehomeless at that time and he
(01:18:50):
said come over here.
And he said we sat down and hesaid let me call mom, come on,
let me get you some help.
Pharaoh's wrapped in theblankets.
And he said he says ah, peopleout here, look out for me.
He said so I gave him somemoney and I you know, and I just
can't imagine what the rest ofhis walk was.
You know that day, but he's hadto live through this right along
(01:19:13):
with us.
You know he loves his brotherand when he's doing well, when I
see them together again talkingabout sports and movies and
women, and you know justeverything, you know and the
laughing, and sometimes I seethe dynamic change.
He's the older brother.
Come on, pharaoh, let me put.
I'm going to take you some food, I'm going to bring you this.
(01:19:35):
I'm going to do this and then,when he's well, again I watch it
go through, because Pharaoh'svery thoughtful and very you
know when it comes to.
Sometimes I even found myselfhe says well, mom, this is.
And I said, you know what?
I never thought of it that way.
So he's got a very good and Ican see it switch back where the
(01:19:56):
younger son is getting advicefrom his older brother again
about life stuff.
But I see it go like this thedynamic of who's sort of the?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:20:11):
Does Pharaoh have the ?
Well?
I know you talked about thelack of self-awareness.
That's a medical condition.
Does he have an understandingof his biological fathers?
Speaker 2 (01:20:25):
Yes, Because after he left our life, I didn't know
what happened to him for 27years until he died.
To him for 27 years until hedied.
Yeah, we found out that he diedbecause he did leave part of
(01:20:48):
his.
He left his, what it was leftof his military whatever to him.
That was a shock.
They didn't know how to find myson because they had our
address up in northernCalifornia.
But eventually they found himand I was like who is this?
Somebody died.
My husband was like because heworked for the government.
He said that's federalgovernment life insurance.
That's how we knew that he died.
(01:21:10):
But it's been in the last 10,18 years, 18 years.
Oh, and part of this story tooand this is another God part it
was about 15 years of thisjourney with Pharaoh.
I did a talk at just a littleclass or something and a person
(01:21:31):
followed me out of the class andshe said I help veterans get
their discharges upgraded.
And I said, yeah, I've heardthat you can do that, but, gosh,
every time they just give us afive.
She says no, no, no, it's myjob, that's what I do, and so I
had that transcript.
I had all of his stuff that Ikind of held on to.
(01:21:53):
That wasn't lost and Pharaohhad.
I gave him my favorite officesupply as a sheet protector.
My Pharaoh put it all in thereand in a big binder.
We handed her that binder.
It took her a year and a half.
He got his bad conduct dischargeupgraded to a 100% disabled
(01:22:13):
veteran.
So he now has a source ofincome.
He can receive his services atthe veteran vet VA hospital.
He can shop at the commissary.
You know, this was just a great, great and still and he was
again doing well, like I said,he has these periods.
(01:22:33):
It could be three to five yearsof maybe doing, but in recent
years for some reason he's.
He's just any cycles.
Yeah, shorter cycles.
And he says it's the sideeffects of the medication which
are horrible.
I mean, one of them even had acommercial about that medication
.
You're the lawyers If you'vebeen taking this medication.
It makes men grow breasts, youknow.
(01:22:55):
So who wants to stay on amedication that does that, you
know.
Or he said you just feelsedated all the time, you just
feel I don't have any energy.
I don't, you know, and I can'timagine.
And you have to take that, thered, basically the rest of your
life.
You know.
Yes, there are long actinginjectables which make it like
you don't have to remember thepills every night, but that has
(01:23:19):
the same side effects in a lotof ways.
And then one of them is tardivedyskinesia.
You see the commercial on TVfor the medication now that can
help with the tardive dyskinesia.
They didn't have that Well, it'sinvoluntary movements, you're
sitting there trying to be on adate and your face is twisting
up or whatever you know.
So you can't imagine.
You know that that's having tolive with some of those side
(01:23:42):
effects.
It's not just like weight gainor something like that erectile
dysfunction all these thingsthat come along with that
medication.
So, yeah, you, you might stopit, but, um, again, only think a
person with, because there aremany people that stay on them
you know, in spite of all thosethings, but a person with the
(01:24:04):
anosognosia feature.
You know that still is difficult.
Speaker 1 (01:24:11):
Well, you've been so generous with your time and your
story and your openness andcandor about your family.
It's very touching reflectingon and listening to you these
moments when serendipitousthings happened in your life.
You know one of them beingrunning into this woman who
(01:24:36):
devotes her time to gettingbenefits figured out and
discharges figured out forveterans and other experiences
that you've had.
I have one last question for youBefore we get there.
Do you have anything that hasbeen kind of kicking around in
your head that we have not yettouched on in this conversation
(01:24:57):
that you think would benefitlisteners?
Speaker 2 (01:25:01):
No, I would just want to leave them with, even if you
don't have I mean, you probablydo.
The statistic is one in five.
You know people, there's someform of it around you.
Be the casserole person, youknow, even if it's for the
family, you know that's a greatt-shirt, yes yes, and also, you
(01:25:24):
know, with someone that's havesay, I, you know I don't
understand it, but I can listenor I can take you for a cup of
coffee not maybe the individualor the family member, just kind
of going through it.
And there's even aneducation-like program.
It's called Mental Health FirstAid and it's just for the
general public to understandwhat mental illness is and is
(01:25:47):
not.
I always say so.
I would just say to have a moreopen mind about it.
We don't want anyone to go upand say, oh, that guy's
struggling, let me go over thereand try to help him.
No, we don't want anyone to goup and say, oh, that guy's
struggling, let me go over thereand try to help him.
No, we don't want you to dothat, um, but just just, you
know, kind of have an open mindand understanding about it and
if you want, educate yourselfthere's a lot on the internet
(01:26:09):
now as well and but make sureyou get it from a good source
you know, yes so the the lastquestion is a hypothetical so
let's say you're given theopportunity to create a
billboard on the side of thefreeway.
Speaker 1 (01:26:26):
what does your billboard say to the world about
the journey that has becomeyour work, that has become your
work, that has become your life?
What do you want the public asthey're driving by, wrapped up
in their own minds and their ownworlds?
What do you want them to takeaway?
(01:26:49):
Other?
Speaker 2 (01:26:51):
than be the casserole person.
I would want to have a messageabout that.
Mental illness is a treatablemedical condition.
That's what I would want to saythat it is not a person that
just needs to shake it off andget it together or whatever it
takes treatment, and so just toremind people it's a treatable
(01:27:12):
medical condition.
The definition of mentalillness is this is a fact sheet.
It's longer than what I'm aboutto say, but it says mental
illness is a medical conditionthat disrupts a person's
speaking, feeling and ability torelate to others and daily
functioning.
Just that sentence.
(01:27:33):
Right, there is what I alwaysstart with in my presentations
as well, because I want toremind people that it is a
medical condition.
So that's probably what mybillboard would say, and on a
personal, I would probably say25 years later, and I'm still
standing.
You know, that would be for mypersonal one.
Speaker 1 (01:27:54):
Thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and
your energy and your hope in themidst of challenges.
It's really been inspiring forme.
Thank you so much for your timeand your wisdom and your energy
and your hope in the midst ofchallenges.
It's really been inspiring forme.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:28:01):
Well, thank you for inviting me.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:28:06):
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Hangout
Podcast.
To support our show, pleaseclick the support our show link.
If you choose to make adonation, it's much appreciated.
Any amount, however small, willmake a difference.
I want to emphasize as wellthat this show is entirely
(01:28:26):
private and separate from my dayjob and as such, all opinions
and views expressed herein aremine and mine alone.
Thank you for coming on in tohang out.
Welcome to the Hangout Podcast.
I'm your host, david Shoretta.
On this show, we sit down forinteresting and inspiring
conversations.
In this episode, I wasprivileged to have a
conversation with Anita Fisher.
Anita Fisher is an outspokenand powerful advocate for the
(00:21):
rights of those diagnosed withmental illness.
Her own work in this fieldbegan as a personal journey over
two decades ago when her adultson, pharaoh, was diagnosed with
serious mental illness.
This led to a completetransformation in their lives
and in her own career, as shemoved from a successful banking
(00:44):
career to becoming a mentalhealth advocate.
Now retired, she continues toadvocate on behalf of those
suffering with mental illness.
We covered a wide range oftopics, from mental illness to
substance issues to homelessness, and Ms Fisher has some strong
(01:05):
and outspoken views on what shebelieves are some solutions from
her own personal livedexperience.
To learn more about thisremarkable woman and her work,
visit fishermhconsultingcom.
That's fishermhconsultingcom.
That's Fisher mhconsultingcom.
(01:26):
I hope you enjoy thisconversation as much as I did.
Welcome, ms Fisher.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show today and for sharing
your story.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Well, thank you, Dr Schroeder, for the invite.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I thought it would be useful and helpful and
instructive for our listeners ifyou would start at the
beginning of your story, whereyou come from, what paths in
your life have led you to thiscurrent moment, and then we can
get into your advocacy work.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Okay, great, thank you.
Well, I'm originally a NorthernCalifornia.
I was actually born and raisedin San Francisco and my
husband's job brought us to SanDiego County 30 years ago.
Now I have two sons.
They're 10 years apart in ageand the son that brings me to
(02:21):
the work that I'm doing now ismy oldest son.
He was in middle school when wemoved here.
Sorry, not middle school, hewas actually a junior in high
school when we moved here and Iknow that was a big transition
for him, but he did well.
He graduated.
(02:41):
We thought he was heading offto college but something kind of
changed for him and I said youknow?
He said I don't want to go tocollege and I said, well, okay,
army, navy, air Force, marines.
I said, until you figure outwhat you want to do with your
life, I said, at least you canbe gaining some skills going to
(03:01):
school, whatever.
And he went off to boot campand I remember going to his boot
camp graduation in Fort LeonardWood, missouri, and I saw a
changed young man.
I mean, those shoulders wereback, he seemed focused on what
he wanted to do with his lifeand he ended up going to the AIT
(03:23):
they call it.
I think it's advanced somethingtraining.
But he ended up in the mediccorps and he was out of his
class, only one of two recruitsthat went to Walter Reed.
So his duty station was WalterReed and he was working in the
hospital.
And I said, wow, I said I neverwanted to be a nurse, but my
mom was a nurse.
(03:44):
His grandmother said, wow, Isaid I never wanted to be a
nurse, but my mom was a nurse,his grandmother.
And I said so, you've kind ofpicked up that path, you know,
of going to work.
And then I remember we did afamily trip to Washington DC.
Actually I'd never been therebefore and it was great for my
younger son, you know he wrote agreat report on all the things
we saw and did in DC and I gotto see him in action.
(04:09):
You know, actually behind thenurses station I would get all
these compliments, you know,from a lot of the older.
His fellow colleagues there,you know, say fine young man,
great young man.
And this is what I always heardabout my son his whole life.
His report cards used to sayjoy to have in my class.
He was a very good student andso I always like to tell about
(04:33):
and share who he was before hisillness manifested.
And then, I'd say, two yearsinto his service, I was, like
you know, I used to say one down, one to go, you know, getting
the other one ready and out ofschool.
And you know, we have thatdream of being empty nesters,
(04:55):
you know and all that good stuff.
Getting your RV yes yes, youknow, and we used to say that we
used to actually say, no, we'regoing to sell the house and
live in a motor home.
You can't move back home if youdon't know where we are, you
know.
So we used to tease about that.
But he came home one summer andI noticed he was drinking very
heavily, and it wasn't just thathe was drinking, but it just
(05:18):
didn't make any sense and hejust seemed to be changed in
some way.
And I remember, you know, Iwould just go to work as a
normal and come home and in theevenings we'd have dinner and
you know, uh, you know, catch up, but it was just something very
different and I didn't knowwhat it was.
And I um remember that themorning that he was needed to
(05:45):
leave to go back to Washington,I was going to drop him off at
work.
I worked downtown, so it wasperfect, drop him off at the
airport.
And he wasn't.
He just was not ready.
He was disorganized, that bigduffel bag thing, you know.
I said you better hurry up, sohe's stuffing stuff in there.
I said, excuse me, I noticedthat, you know, you've been
(06:07):
drinking pretty heavy andprobably some other stuff too.
I'm sure marijuana may havebeen involved.
And I said you need to talkwith your sergeant.
You don't want to ruin.
You already have steps.
He's made up.
You know grades.
He's been promoted.
He was a certified phlebotomistalready.
You know he was really doingwell.
And I said you know theyprobably have a program.
(06:31):
I'm sure you wouldn't be thefirst that might need some help.
You know in this area.
So I said please talk with yoursergeant and try to get some
help.
And I worried as a mom you knowyou have this gut thing.
And I worried as a mom, youhave this gut thing.
I dropped him off at the airport.
I went to work and I just neverdidn't feel.
I said make sure you call.
(06:51):
I don't even think cell phoneswere kind of out then.
So I said when you get there,call and let us know that you
made it back safely.
And I remember about two days Iknow he never called one day
one.
Then day two, that evening Igot a call from his sergeant
saying do you know where yourson is?
(07:13):
I always say that was thebeginning of our journey.
After that I remember that um, I, I spoke with her and um, she,
uh, said you know, yeah, this isso unusual for him, but she had
a butt in there and she wassaying he just there's a change.
(07:34):
We started to see a change inhim.
You know he, you know she wasthinking it was him hanging
around with the wrong people.
But it was the fact that he washanging around with the ones
who like to drink and what haveyou and all that is very key to
all of this because having adiagnosed mental illness, you
(07:54):
will find I know the statisticssay somewhere 40, 50 percent, I
believe it's more, 80 percentthey have some type of substance
use disorder attached, whichthey call co-occurring disorder.
You know where they'reself-medicating with drugs or
alcohol.
You know to manage thosesymptoms.
And so this all played a key inbecause in the initial part of
(08:18):
our thinking was that oh my gosh, he's gone out there and
becoming maybe an alcoholic ordrugs or something like that,
and that wasn't part of yourfamily pattern or history or
anything.
No, no, no, and we just didn'tsee that coming.
You know, I'm not saying he wasa perfect angel.
I know that he, you know, quoteexperimented with marijuana in
(08:39):
high school.
So you know, that's not youknow, but it was nothing like
that.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
He's not alone in that school.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
So you know, that's not you know, but it was not
alone in that, yes, exactly, andso we you know, but this, what
we were seeing, we did, we didnot expect.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
You want me to just keep going yeah, no, no, no, you
, you, you're good Okay.
You keep talking and I'm I'mjust looking down on here.
Okay, we'll, we'll edit throughthese.
You're good, you tell yourstory, this is your story.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
All right, thank you.
So then they did locate him.
He was on the grounds, but hejust wasn't reporting to work.
And that's where they found him.
They said they counseled himand talked to him.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
To him, and then the unthinkable really happened was
when I got a call to say yourson is in the brig.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I said what?
So he'd gotten to the militarybase?
Yes, he had got back to, yes,to the hospital, and it wasn't
even the way that it set up thehospital.
And then they had likedormitory, like you know, that
sat on the campus.
So he had his own room, youknow, it wasn't like they were
in bunks or anything.
And they said he got into afight with another soldier and
(09:55):
they hit him with a bottle.
It was just like what, what?
I didn't know who they mightsaid had never been in a fight.
You know, throughout school hewas always the guy.
Everybody, you know, wanted tobe his friend and all the girls
liked him and all this kind ofstuff.
So this was so unusual.
I said no, and I thought, ok,I'm going into some kind of, you
know, alternate universe.
(10:16):
I said who is this?
What is going on?
Well, it gets worse.
They said well, yeah, they'vehad, he has enough with this,
this is it.
They're going to probably, youknow, put him out.
And so I got a call from a JAGofficer who said I'm going to be
representing your son and, yeah, they're going to want to court
(10:38):
martial him, you know.
And so I kind of told him hisstory, you know, kind of just
what I just said, shared to youthat birth through, you know.
You know the time that heentered.
He says you know what, I wouldlike for you to come back and
get on the stand and at hishearing, I want you to share
that with him because we all sawwhat you are describing when he
(11:01):
first came are describing whenhe first came and they flew me
back to DC and I remember thatwhen I sat there outside of that
courtroom my husband had afriend, a family friend, who was
an attorney in DC.
So he came with me and he saidyou know, military law is
different than civilian law, butI can at least listen and be
(11:23):
here with you, you know.
So he came to the hearing withme and I remember when I saw I
could tell he was a high rankingperson walked in with two other
guys, you know, in theiruniforms, and I could, you know
he was actually sort of the headof the hospital, basically on
(11:44):
the military, you know, militaryside, and he came up to me and
they called me.
You know this is my secondmarriage.
I'm Fisher, but his last nameis Degree and I will tell you
about his father in a momentthat he said Mrs Degree, he says
I'm sorry to meet you underthese circumstances.
(12:05):
He says I remember your sonwhen he came with the new
recruits and I remember that Icould pick out the ones who were
going to be an issue and yourson was not one of them and he
proved me wrong.
I mean, he proved me right andso I'm sorry to meet you.
And I thought that was so kindof him to say that and make that
(12:27):
because I thought, oh, they'reall mad at him.
He's not lived up to what heshould.
So, and just kind of hold thatthought, his name is Degree.
I was married previously his dadand the reason why we divorced
was because his behaviorschanged.
We married early in our 20s andall of a sudden he was this
(12:51):
upstanding.
Actually he had been in theNavy, he worked for the Veterans
Administration, we were just ayoung couple.
I had a little job at the bankand we were raising our baby,
but something totally changed inhim.
And so hold that thought.
And then I'm going to now jumpback to where I was in the story
(13:13):
with my sons and we.
There was a psychologist thenthat approached me as I was
sitting there.
He said hello, mrs Degree, theykept calling me Degree While
your son was in the brig.
I was seeing him and he sharedsome things with me that leads
(13:33):
me to believe that this is thebeginning of a mental health
issue.
And I'm looking at him.
I said he said because we wouldsay, oh, it was probably drugs
and alcohol, that we know he wason as well because they did
test, he said, but he was inthere long enough where it
wasn't the drugs or alcohol.
(13:53):
All that would have been out ofhis system.
And he says so when I'm done,you're going to hear me say some
things while on the stand.
And he said when I am done,make sure you get a transcript
because we are trying to get amedical discharge.
And all of this is just sort ofshocking to me.
I said medical what?
And you know, and I'm justreally still confused at this
(14:17):
point, so we go into the hearingand then they do eventually
call this.
They, you know, talked about,of course.
And then they do eventuallycall this, you know, talked
about, of course, the incident,which was again totally out of
character, surprise for my son.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
An altercation.
Yes, yes, Some sort right.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Yes, and then they talked about this psychiatrist
got on the stand, psychologist,psychologist, and he said, as
he's going through everythingtalking and and what he said
voices that he was hearingvoices and that he said that he
(14:52):
used to believe that when he wasin his room that anyone who
passed the door was talkingabout him or and he said that
the TV was doing things where hewould throw his sheets over the
TV.
He was sharing this.
He felt safe enough to sharethis with that and I'm just
sitting there in shock.
And he said I do not believe heis malingering.
(15:15):
And I came to know that that isa word in the behavioral health
world that means they're notfaking, he's not malingering,
and that I believe he has aschizophrenic form disorder.
And I will never forget thosewords, schizophrenic form
disorder.
And I said wait a minute, wait,that's that part schizo.
(15:38):
I've heard that that's peoplewith.
You know that C word that Idon't ever use anymore, but you
know we used to say that.
Oh, that person is you know theC word and I said wait a minute,
no, this can't be it.
And so they and he did not getthe medical discharge.
They kicked him out with a badconduct discharge.
(16:00):
I went back home and it wasgoing to be time to finish
processing him out and they werejust going to send him back to
San Diego.
Of course he didn't, wouldn'thave any benefits whatsoever.
And I thought, well, again inmy mind, that whole
schizophrenic, schizophrenicform disorder thing went to the
back of my mind and I was like Ialways call it myself stigma.
(16:24):
I said, well, it was just thedrugs and alcohol.
He's going to bring himselfback here and get himself
together and you know he hassome skills, he's a.
You know he maybe can work forthe blood bank or a hospital or
something like that and this isa blip, excuse me.
And he came back and we hadthat discussion but something
(16:48):
had changed.
He literally couldn't get backto San Diego.
He missed his flight.
They put him on a bus.
He went back to the base.
They said no, no, you're notsupposed to be here.
So they got him a bus ticketand put him on a bus.
I'm surprised he made it backacross the country.
Yes, he came.
He literally had left, had losthalf of his things and I he was
(17:11):
so disruptive that one thing Iremember is that there was this,
this hotel, um, that was nearthe bus station called the
Pickwick Um, and I remember thatI said let's just get him a
room there.
I, we need to figure this outand process.
By this point, I have a 14 yearold at home and I'm like what
(17:32):
kind of chaos is coming in here.
So, you know, we put him there.
You know he was there for alittle while.
Then we had him come home andyou know, with the rules, you
know, you know no drinking, ofcourse, no drugs, and you need
to have a purpose, goals to set,and he would say all the right
(17:55):
things, but I just still noticedthat there was something.
And then my younger son said tous one day he said you know, he
does some, some strange things.
He he called the, the.
The fire department showed upat the house when you guys were
at work.
It was like he was out ofschool at that time, during a
(18:17):
break.
And he said that sometimes he'sscreaming in his room and I and
I said why didn't you tell us?
Well, that was his hero his bigbrother, you know, and he, you
know, didn't want to get him introuble.
And I said well, you need totell us.
And then that stuff aboutschizophrenic formed started.
(18:37):
So I started doing research.
We had a computer wasn't a loton it at that time.
But, you know, I found enough towhere I remember seeing a
checklist for schizophrenia andI could check off every box and
I remember even showing it to myyoungest and I said, well, I
believe that this is whathappened, and I did get that
(18:58):
transcript as well, becausethat's going to be very
important to this journey is mehaving that transcript from his
court-martial.
And so it started.
We were just on this.
I, I didn't know where to turn.
I just he was having all thesedifferent and I, we were
(19:20):
arguments and screaming, and youknow what is wrong with you and
you need to.
Okay, I'm going to put you out.
And I remember, you know, Ithought that threat would
definitely straighten him up,but it didn't.
And I remember I did.
I said leave, you have to leavethe house.
You know my husband, you knowwe're having discussions in this
(19:40):
.
He's raised him since he wassix.
That is his son.
We never say step anything andhe loves and adores him to this
day, each other.
They do love and adore eachother to this day.
And but he was right there, youknow, with he said no, we're
not having that in this house,you know.
And so I remember that it waslike a Friday or Thursday or
(20:05):
Friday and I'm like, oh, it'sgonna be cold out there.
He'll be back in one straightenup.
And then I'm to my husband at 5am that Saturday morning, let's
go look for him.
I knew he had ended up downtownsomewhere and we went to look
for him and I remember that Iwas walking and I saw this group
(20:25):
of kind of young people and Isaid do you know a guy?
He has, you know, an unusualname named Pharaoh.
He said, yeah, you see thoseboots sticking out of that
doorway.
That's him I just saw and Ididn't recognize the boots.
I didn't, you know.
And so I walked down there andmy husband, who had broke his
ankle, was driving, you know,and I'm walking, and, sure
(20:46):
enough, that was him laying in adoorway and I said I said this
is not come on, you need to, youknow.
So he agreed to come and Iremember he was filthy, dirty,
and I remember making him standin the garage, strip naked and
throw everything in the garbagecan.
And you know, I gave him atowel and I remember, you know,
(21:10):
making him come and shower andthings, and I thought, okay,
maybe we can start this, we cantry this again.
Well, it didn't work and hestayed the weekend.
I said we need to go to aprogram.
Then it was.
We were looking for drug andalcohol programs, right.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Because you still didn't, you weren't thinking.
Mental illness no.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
I had read, I had seen it.
I was still saying but no, thiscan't be, you have to be born
with this.
That's what I was saying in myhead.
He doesn't just develop at 21years old.
And so I did try to pointtowards the substance use.
So we were trying to.
We saw all these programs thatwere listed residential.
(21:55):
I remember we would go.
He would sit, go through theorientation part and whatever
you have to do, the rules andregulation, and then he would I
don't want to be here or I don't.
I said, well, you need to picksomething.
because I was frustrated by thispoint, because you need some
help, right?
So finally it took an arrest.
He was arrested because backthen crack cocaine was the drug
(22:18):
of choice in the streets at thattime and they had mandatory
sentencing.
So he would end up in jail forfacilitating a drug buy or under
the influence or, um, okay,what was the third one that he
would always get arrested for?
Um, yeah, probably betweenthose two, and then it would be
(22:42):
strikes, you know, for him beingunder the influence, because I
was like no drug dealer, hisstate of mind we would always
drive.
My husband worked downtown.
We would drive through thestreets looking, we would find
him and you know, but hewouldn't come in for help.
I soon learned that he didn'trealize he was sick.
(23:03):
I soon learned that he didn'trealize he was sick.
He has an added feature to hisnow schizophrenia, diagnosis of
anosognosia, the lack of insight, and that is a clinical term.
Now, dr Javier Amador, he has agreat book that we always
recommended, and I'll get to howI got to NAMI and I'll get to
how I got to NAMI and duringthis period I finally said, okay
(23:28):
, we have to now figure out thiswhole mental illness thing,
this mental, you know because,and understand it.
And I kept seeing in my, in,looking for help, this NAMI,
n-a-m-i, national Alliance onMental oh for the mentally ill,
even back then, and and I, I, I,I call them one day just
(23:51):
desperate, a desperate mother.
And I remember I was in tearsand I said this is what's been
happening.
I gave him the whole story andI thought they were going to say
, oh, sorry, ma'am, you're, yeah, this is too hard for us or
something you know.
And he said we understand.
Now, remember that was a dadthat answered the phone.
I eventually met him later.
But he says I understand, Ihave a loved one and we've been
(24:15):
through some of what you'vementioned.
You know you need to take thisclass.
And he said it's called familyto family.
And he says it's 12 weeks.
I said, excuse me.
I said a class.
I said no, sir.
I said I need help, I need toknow how do I get my son into
treatment.
Everybody keeps telling me Ican't just call and have him
(24:37):
picked up.
Like you know, when I used towatch TV, dr Kildare or whoever
it was, you know you saw thewhite.
You know ambulance come withthe red, you know cross on it
and they had that little buttondown, you know, and they would
come and take the person to aplace for help.
You know, I said where's thatnumber?
You know, and, but it didn'texist, and and and, in some
(25:00):
cases rightfully so.
You know, that was the old waythat they did it.
You know the insane asylums ofof yesteryear, yes, and so we
did take the class, because evenmy husband and I were
struggling too, and how we saw,you know, looking at this, a
(25:20):
man's, you know, and then themom.
And so we took that 12 weekclass.
It was Saturday mornings, twoand a half hours.
We were in the room with 16other family members, and that
was the first time that Irealized wait, we're not alone.
I realized that this was, and Ieven thought, I said is this
something that just happens toblack people?
(25:41):
I really thought that this wassomething rare.
You know, that was happeningand I learned, and I learned,
you know, through that class.
It was amazing because ittaught us that my son didn't
have a character flaw, that ittruly was a medical condition
affecting his brain, thattreatment was that, in finding
(26:04):
the right treatment, that hecould live a quality life, and
that's what.
Then it became a mission fromthat class and also in that
class, the two teachersapproached me and I said, oh, am
I talking too much or what?
But they kind of during a break, and they said you know, we,
this class, just like we'remothers, and we were taught and
(26:25):
certified to teach this.
It's always taught by peers,it's taught by people with the
same lived experience, and wethink you'd be a good teacher.
And I was like I have ademanding, you know, full-time
job at the bank.
I was a.
Was I a VP?
I think yeah, I was, you know,a manager.
And I was like, ah, I just, youknow, I don't know if I would
(26:48):
have time for that, whatever.
But I said I just, you know, Idon't know if I would have time
for that whatever.
But I said, ok, put my name onthe list.
And I remember that I did go tothe certification training and I
met even more people who wereagain like me.
They were family members, somewere siblings, some were parents
, some were, you know,grandparents who had taken the
(27:13):
course, and they were beingtrained to teach it in their
communities or wherever.
So it just then started.
Something grew in me at thattime.
I was like I think I'd been inbanking, by this point, 30 years
.
I was a VP and a businesssystems analyst and I worked for
Union Bank of California thenthat's the name went back and
forth a few times and I was likeset, ready to cruise on into
(27:36):
retirement, right.
But I remember that I was joinedthe board of NAMI San Diego and
I was like, ok, it's somethingI want to do, this, I need to be
here, I want to talk toespecially my community.
I wanted to speak to theAfrican-American community about
mental health.
We treated it differently.
(27:56):
You know, it was a secret.
There's movies that I canidentify where that person with
mental illness was there in thefamily.
You saw him in the back room,upstairs, but they took care of
them, you know.
And but no, there is adifferent kind of help.
There is a way where thatperson can live, you know again,
(28:17):
a good quality life.
And I wanted to bring all thisto whoever not you know, my
community and whoever and so Iremember asking the executive
director.
I said you know, I don't knowwhat, what you know with, what
my background is, what I wouldbring here, you know, but if
there's ever a job, just youknow and they had received a
(28:39):
contract for where they weregoing to be able to do that
course and they needed a programmanager.
And I quit my job, you know, atthe bank, yes, with a long
discussion with my husband, andI did a spreadsheet and
everything you know to show himthe numbers, yes, how much I
could make.
And I needed to make, actuallyto make things.
(29:01):
And and I always am grateful tomy husband that he agreed he
said I knew that you needed todo something with this.
I said I don't have the heartto even go to work anymore.
This is what I need to do.
So I did become that family tofamily teacher and now I've been
teaching that course for still20 years, even when I became the
(29:22):
education director at NAMI SanDiego, every year at least once
I taught in person that that nowit's eight weeks.
But that course for families Ifacilitate for support groups.
I still do that.
I still.
I'm what they call a statetrainer, so I now train other
(29:42):
people to do it through thestate.
I serve on the NAMI Californiaboard.
I've done things through thenational.
I've just.
I might as well have a NAMItattoo.
Yes, because I'm very muchingrained in it, even though I
retired in 2018.
And now I want to go back againand talk about my son and why.
A lot of this, too, is becausewhen he started to go to jail
(30:07):
and then prison because of thatmandatory sentencing, he didn't
rape, kill, beat nothing,anybody.
He was sitting in prison withhardened criminals because he
was addicted to drugs and had amental illness that was
untreated and that it wasuntreated in a way where I
(30:29):
couldn't get him into.
He had to agree he had rightsand we're going to talk about
rights in a minute and I waslike I believe nobody can
believe more in rights andfreedoms than a black woman.
You know a person and but whenit is harmful to you, there is a
point in time where involuntarytreatment is needed and my son
(30:54):
would hit every roadblock.
But there would be a time, oncehe was in the system, he would
be in the mental health units.
The thank God that the prisonsdid have units for designated
for individuals like that, and Iremember even serving on a
state committee with a familymembers with the California
(31:18):
Department of Corrections.
They were doing kind of a youknow to say how can we serve
this population better?
Not, like you, know whenthey're released.
No one knows when they'rereleased, what time, what day,
and they drop them off at a busstop, sometimes in another city.
I've heard horror stories.
Over the years it has gottenmuch, much better warm handoffs
to reentry programs and things.
(31:39):
I actually was appointed byGovernor Newsom to the Council
on Criminal Justice andBehavioral Health.
We just sunset it though thatcommittee.
It had been around for 10, over10 years, but we, you know,
because I wanted to bring thatfamily member voice.
Everything I do is aboutbringing the family perspective
(32:02):
so that our stories, because Ihear them.
I have three calls right nowthat I'm going to have to return
this afternoon from familymembers who may have been in a
class or a group and they're incrisis.
Yes, there are crisis numbersyou know to call.
There's the accessing crisisline and all of that, but
sometimes you need to talk withthat person to help you
(32:23):
strategize.
That's been in the trenches,you know, and that's what I do.
I am not a helpline.
I do have a little website andI have a phone number in a you
know so that people can find me.
But that was not initially myintent.
(32:44):
I wanted to be a voice of thefamily to the treatment
community, the behavioral healthcommunity.
That's why I have to serve onboards.
You know several boards, youknow parents for addiction
treatment and healing, awonderful organization that
helped because before mentalillness and substance use
(33:06):
disorder was separate.
You know they.
You have to go down this path.
You have to be clean and soberbefore you can treat this and
all of that.
Well, they finally, you know,merged the two and realized they
need to treat both together.
But that organization, you knowthey now do the Narcan
distribution.
I serve on the CommunityResearch Foundation, which is a
provider here in San DiegoCounty of behavior health
(33:27):
services, of Behavioral HealthServices, and but it's always
again about bringing that familymember voice.
My son has had periods of whatwe call they call recovery.
You know recovery not cure.
There is no cure but recoverymeans that he is maintaining his
medication regimen.
(33:47):
He got a lot of great peertraining, meaning there's a
peer-to-peer course that NAMIoffers that tells them how to
live successfully with what theyhave, how to set themselves up
for success and live thatquality life that I've always
wanted for both my children.
Right, he became a mentor, hebecame a secretary at his NA
(34:13):
group.
When NAMI San Diego had ahelpline contract, he was one of
the first hired, not because ofme, but on his own, and he
worked on that helpline and Iwas like, okay, thank God, we
got there, this is over.
He's probably close to 30 yearsold at this point because it
(34:34):
started at 21 and we get jail,prison, homelessness.
You know all of that andfinally it seems like we were on
that.
You know upward, you know and,and we're over.
He understands it all now.
Well, anytime he stops hismedication, we're back at square
one, and square one is thatanosognosia.
(34:55):
I'm not sick, I don't need help.
That's the name of the book, drJavier Amador's book.
And he realized he, his brother, had schizophrenia as well.
And he realized I'm a clinician, I am a psychologist, you know,
he's been on CNN and everywhere.
Clinician, I am a psychologist,you know, he's been on CNN and
everywhere.
And I can't, you know, even getmy brother.
(35:16):
You know, what am I not doingright?
And he realized it was how hewas talking to his brother and
he developed the LEAP methodthat stands for listen,
empathize, agree and partner.
And it's a wonderful book andit can work, not just with
mental health just saying withanything, yes, yes, with
anything exactly and but that isa method, he said, that you
(35:38):
know can work very well with umindividuals.
You know in, like you said, in alot of different um situations.
But but the anosognosia part,that's what he was.
He realized that his brother,the lack of insight, and he said
there's a part of the brainthat can be affected and it
(36:00):
could be an accident.
He said that he worked withpatients who had traumatic brain
injuries and he, one gentleman,lost his arm in an accident and
he didn't believe the arm wasgone because that part of his
brain had been damaged in theaccident.
And he says well then, how comeyou can't write?
Well, then, write us a note.
(36:21):
And he says you guys have myarm tied down.
He kept giving excuses.
Well, this is the same thingthat we sometimes, when someone
with mental illness hasanosognosia as well, those
excuses, and we would hear thatfrom my son.
We would say but look what youjust did, you were, you know
this, this.
And he was like well, you guysare, that was in the past or you
(36:44):
know, it seemed, you know, itseemed to be trying to justify
trying to justify, excuse me thebehavior.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, Okay, and we'll link.
I'll link to that book as wellin the show notes.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Oh, great yeah, I think that would be good, mm-hmm
and so and even though I waslike, but remember you used to
get up my son was alwaysmeticulous about how he looked
his dress, get his hair cutevery week and get the little
lines in it.
And you know the tennis shoesmatch the hat and you know he
always, I remember he'd goshopping and get all the little
(37:21):
polo shirts to wear to work.
So he'd look professional andyou know.
And then here's someone thatwouldn't bathe for a week and
had filthy clothes on and raggedclothes that I don't even know
where they would come fromsometimes and basically live in
the street.
I don't know how many times.
I can't even tell you how manytimes my son has lived in the
street or in Balboa Park, youknow, and it would be because we
(37:44):
would try to find him or hewould eventually call when he
would say I need food orsomething.
And you know I would go and wewould try to take him food and
try to get him to come off ofthe streets and get help.
And my frustration, all of theseyears it's been what?
Almost 20, it's been 25 yearsnow because he just turned 47
(38:07):
years old April 22nd, turned 47years old April 22nd and all of
these years my biggestfrustration has been that, well,
we can't force him.
He has to, you know, ask forhelp.
We have a lot of wonderfulgreat.
I know them all because Iworked within the system under
NAMI, so so I know all of theresources, I know the programs,
(38:33):
but unless that person willinglygoes in and raises their hand,
it doesn't work.
Yes, you can call for PERT.
I'm on the PERT board too, theadvisory board, and I speak at
the PERT Academy.
You know the PsychiatricEmergency Response Team but
again, a lot of times, unlessthat person is exhibiting a
(38:58):
danger to self or others at thatmoment in time that law
enforcement may be there.
With or without a clinician,that person may be left behind
and you know they can promise myson would do that.
Oh yeah, I'll call my doctor.
Yeah, I'll take my meds.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
And they'd just leave them.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
And they'd leave them .
Yeah, and so this is a lot ofthe advocacy work that I'm doing
right now with some familiesfrom across the state, some that
I've never met in person beforeto this day.
But care court was a part ofthat.
That was families frustratedsaying you know they're skirting
(39:38):
around that.
Gravely disabled.
You know gravely disabled, thelaw, you know the welfare
institution codes.
Yes, those codes are out therethat says if a person is unable
to provide food, shelter.
You know all of that.
And we said look on the street,like you just said, the person
(40:02):
you may almost ran over thismorning.
Why is that person in thatalley?
They obviously are gravelydisabled.
So why hasn't someone come and,in a client centered,
compassionate way, giving themthe services they need, even if
it's involuntary?
Because once my son isstabilized involuntarily guess
(40:25):
what?
Then he's able to walk out intothe world and live a
semi-independent life.
I always put semi in there.
But he is, he functions hisbrain still.
I said all the stuff you'vebeen through.
I'm surprised that when he isstable in that medication I
remember they used to call it achemical imbalance.
(40:46):
I don't hear them refer to itlike that before, but it's
always made it easier for me tocomprehend what's going on in
the brain, you know, and thatcertain levels are off and just
like I have prediabetes or Itake medication for something,
that's because something is offin my body and I need it to
stabilize it.
And I don't think my family ifI decided you know, I don't like
(41:10):
that, this medicine makes megain weight, so I don't want to
take.
And I don't think my family ifI decided you know I don't like
that, this medicine makes megain weight so I don't want to
take it.
I don't think my, my, theywould probably be able to
involuntarily take me to ahospital if it was killing me.
Um and, and this is the thingthat when my son is off of his
medication and in the streets, Ihave to plan a funeral.
(41:31):
I said this during an interviewrecently I don't know if it was
on the 60 Minutes one aboutcare court, but I remember that
many families say that they sayI don't know if they're going to
be, and I have attended far toomany funerals of people dying
before their family, theirparents, just because they
(41:51):
couldn't get them help, whetherit was an overdose or whether it
was, you know something theydid.
I remember a young woman here inSan Diego who I knew from
working with her.
She was a peer that's how wenormally, you know, distinguish
family member or peer personwith lived experience, family
(42:13):
member or a peer person withlived experience and her, her
symptoms returned and she wasdriving her car and she ended up
in Los Angeles and the policefelt threatened, they shot,
she's dead and she was a mom.
You know there's been horrorstories.
They don't always get the.
No one knows the backstory.
You know she was.
She had her law degree.
You know no one knows who shewas.
(42:34):
They only see the sensationalstory.
So normally, what you see in thepaper about mental illness, I
have a dear mom friend that Iknew for over 10 years that I
met in one of the.
She's actually wanted me tostart a support group for people
who have a loved one withmental illness in jail or prison
and I used to do the group andshe was sort of the person that
(42:56):
brought in all the moms thatshe'd meet in the visiting rooms
.
Her son was in prison andbecause of something he did
while in psychosis and he gotout, she was so happy and
unfortunately, in 2022, 2023, hetook her life.
Those are stories that.
(43:16):
No, and I don't want to putthat out there.
Most, most statistically,people with mental illness are
more likely to have violenceagainst them.
So it's not.
But I want to just say, youknow, we can't hide the fact
that untreated mental illnesscan be, yes, a danger to self or
others.
If it's not, so why do we fightso hard against involuntary
(43:42):
treatment?
No, if someone has a melt andoh my God, I'm so sick, no one's
going to call the PERT team onyou.
You know that's not what we'retalking about.
We're talking about okay, thisis getting dangerous for this
person.
You know this person has beenout in the streets no telling
what kind of disease they'repicking up out here.
(44:02):
You know they're not eating.
My son has been skeletal.
I remember going to visit himin jail and every jail or prison
he's ever been in, except, oh,I'll tell you about them putting
him in Pelican Bay.
I have gone to visit himbecause I wanted him to know he
has a loving family behind him.
He shouldn't be here.
(44:22):
He used to even say that oncehe would get stable on
medication and he might be goingto a group, people would say,
well, how did you get here?
I know why I'm here, you knowI'm a gang member or something,
but how did you end up here withthese?
You know in this place, youknow based on just how you speak
, how you, what you talk aboutyour life, and that is
(44:45):
unfortunate.
And so my fight has been one tokeep him out of a jail or a
prison.
But it doesn't happen.
In the last three years he'sbeen in jail.
When he stopped his medication,we just came out of a crisis
situation with him and he isalso.
I was one of the first probably.
(45:06):
I believe they said theirinitial care court petitions
were 50 in 2023, october 2023,when it started here in San
Diego County, and I'm sure I wasone of those first 50, because
on Thanksgiving Eve of that yearI was driving downtown to the
(45:28):
courthouse.
I wanted to hand deliver thatpetition and get it filed
because he was decompensating.
I was like maybe we can catchhim this time.
It's in the early stages, butunfortunately that's not what
happens.
He didn't end up being caughtin time.
He was evicted from his lovelyapartment in Little Italy
(45:51):
because he had stopped his meds,he had and deteriorated and he
was back on the streets, and sowhat do you?
Speaker 1 (46:01):
want me to stop.
Stop me in time.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Okay and unfortunately the program has
not worked out.
That's not what I advocated forand many, many, many families
across the state.
As a matter of fact, there aretwo bills that we are that are
(46:23):
right now in the legislature tomake some amendments to the CARE
Act and the gravely disabledlaw, the Latimer-Pettus-Short
they call it LPS law because itis still not working for people
with SMI and that's adesignation.
(46:43):
There's a spectrum of mentalillness and we're talking about
the people who end up here onthat high end that are
considered to have seriousmental illness, and that's where
my son sits when he is not onhis medication.
When he is on his medication,guess what?
He's way down here, in the verylow range, where a person might
(47:07):
not even know.
You know, sitting and talkingwith him would not know that he
is diagnosed with paranoidschizophrenia.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
So thank you for sharing that impactful and
ongoing story right, we're in it, we're in it.
Still right now, just coming outof crisis, and I'd imagine that
as a family, you live with thehope and the fear and the
(47:37):
trepidation all at the same time, at all times.
Um, how have your extendedfamily members and or neighbors,
acquaintances, colleagues,reacted and what?
What has that been like?
I think I saw you on on one ofthe youtube interviews that you
(48:02):
did talk about.
You know, if your son had aninjury and broke his leg,
someone would come over with acasserole for you and, hey, what
can I do?
Can I drive him to his nextappointment?
Very different in a situationlike this.
Talk to us a little bit aboutwhat that experience has been
(48:24):
like, perhaps the stigma comingto grips with that?
Speaker 2 (48:28):
Yeah, when we first moved here, the house that we
lived in was in a cul-de-sac andI remember so everything was
very visible that when we didhave to call for the PERT team
there was one, two, three, foursheriff's cars, you know, kind
of just just surrounding the andI said, oh my God, the
neighbor's going to say whatkind of people are they?
(48:50):
You know well who's living overthere that requires all this
police.
And then I remember that I cameout of the house and the next
door neighbor, I said youprobably saw the police out here
and you know he's, he has amental illness.
I said she says, oh, girl, Igot mental illness all
throughout my family, you know.
(49:10):
So that was you know.
For that when I was like, okay,see, you never know.
I probably should have beentalking to her a long time ago
about it, cause she had a lot ofexperience in her family and as
far as our family, my, mysister, very close sister,
brother, nephews and whatever,because of my education through
(49:30):
that class and my work at NAMI,and they knew I changed careers
and all of that I educated myfamily.
So we have holiday pictureswhere sometimes he looks well
and sometimes not so well, buthe's in that picture and
everyone embraces him.
No, he's not in the room, he'snot in the back room and he will
(49:50):
go and come and I'll tell them.
I say, you know, pharaoh's notdoing so well right now, Like if
it's my turn to hostThanksgiving.
He will come and go as he wants.
He may come out and eat with usand then he might go in the
room.
He doesn't live with us anymorenow and I've made that kind of
(50:15):
a.
He can always spend the night,maybe if he's well, but I
realize that for my husband andI we're both retired peace of
mind.
He can't live at home.
I believe that that issomething I'm preparing him for
the future.
When we're not here, you knowthat he has to know how to
manipulate not manipulate, butknow how to navigate.
I'm trying to say you know thesystem and live in and that's
why he's living where he is now,you know.
(50:36):
But I want to kind of backtrackon something you said earlier
about.
You know those, those, thoseemotions that I have to live
with those three.
There is a study done by theNational Association of
Caregivers Finally, they did itin 2016 of people like us.
(50:56):
You know, are we caregivers ornot?
You know there's not the ADLsand all of that, but the name of
the report at the end they wantto say what are we going to
name this?
They called it on pins andneedles and that is such a true
statement.
Yes, they said 8.3 millionpeople like me that I just
described my story in somevariation that are out here in
(51:21):
America living like this.
So we do live that way.
But also, kind of into yourcurrent question, you know about
the stigma, the self stigma,the stigma around it.
I am all about.
I've talked at churches.
I I am always out there, youknow, showing that this is a
(51:42):
human condition.
You know we wouldn't punishsomeone for having cancer and
then cancer coming back, youknow, sits in remission and
comes back again.
You know we have to show thatand I said and yeah, a lot of
times that I can be frustrated.
Still, you know, or like, comeon, not again, why would you
(52:02):
know what?
You know what happens when youstop your meds.
So I do can get frustrated aswell with that, because I know
that it's going to be bad forhim, that he is going to
decompensate to a point, but Istill, you know.
That's why I still do what I do.
As long as I can talk and stand, I will be, you know, talking
about this.
(52:23):
To make it normal, you know, toshow the world or the community
that many of those people andwhen I talk to law enforcement
like I'm going to be talking tolaw enforcement tomorrow and I
always want to put that familyface I say, you know, I have a
video, I have a slideshow that Iuse and one of them is my son
(52:47):
doing.
Well, he has a great video outthere, his self telling his
story that he did for the countyand I show that.
And then I say now this is whoyou're probably going to meet
and he's on the streets.
(53:07):
But I want you to remember thatthat person has probably has a
family just like his, you know,probably a mom, a dad, a sister,
a brother, someone out there,grandparents that are looking
for them, maybe, or they themjust not understanding that that
family wants to be a supportand help to them.
And I can see the light bulbs.
I can see it, you know, when Ilook in their eyes.
(53:28):
And we do a panel actually atthe Pert Academy of people with
lived experience that have hadlaw enforcement contact and
family members like myself,someone who lost their loved one
actually her husband to suicide, and you know what you come up
on, and I know that it reallymakes a difference for them to
(53:50):
see the backstory in that person, like we all have a backstory.
And so that is what you know,the purpose of us doing that
lived experience panel.
You know, because they are thefirst responders, you know law
enforcement.
I never thought I told you theguys in the white jacket where
were?
You know, I thought they wouldbe the first responders, but it
(54:11):
is not.
It is law enforcement.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
Are there states, perhaps municipalities, that do
a better job than we do?
Speaker 2 (54:24):
Well, I have been to many NAMI national conferences
and we speak and share and ourtopics are around all of that.
I think it's a struggle acrossthe country.
Yeah, and even here we now havea mobile crisis response team
that does not involve lawenforcement.
Here in San Diego it is.
(54:44):
You know, they do come in, Ithink, a SUV or you know a van
or something, but the personcannot be.
They have to absolutely notneed any kind of restraint, if
you will, and by the timesomeone meets the criteria of a
(55:06):
danger to self or others, that'sunfortunate.
That's what I'm saying.
Why do we treat them at stagefour instead of here in the
beginning?
You know stage.
So a lot of times you do needlaw enforcement for that, for
the safety of everyone.
Speaker 1 (55:21):
Which is that's my understanding, is that that's
kind of the stage that wouldtrigger like a 72-hour hold or
something.
Yes, that's kind of always whatyou hear right, yes.
Danger to yourself or others.
Yes 72-hour hold and thenthat's it.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
Yeah, and where is that?
And that's where some of theother programs and even when I
was at NAMI I was a programmanager for the NAMI portion of
a program that met people inthat San Diego County
Psychiatric Hospital the programis still there where the peers
and they would say, hey, youknow, I've been here, you know I
(55:59):
can help you.
When you get ready to leave Ourprogram can walk out the door
with you.
Basically, that's somethingthat wouldn't happen.
Like I said, instead of saying,okay, discharge, here you go,
here's a paper with all thesethings you got to do.
Go to appointment here, go getyour medicine there, go, you
know, and and leave that to aperson that is coming out, like
they said, someone with thebroken leg or just some surgery,
(56:21):
and someone's going to say, now, come on, I'll help you with
your appointments, I'm bringingthe casserole, whatever.
That doesn't happen in mentalhealth, you know.
And so they are developing alot of programs that are
supporting that transition froma hospital, you know, using peer
supports, which Iwholeheartedly, I really I know
(56:43):
that that was the most effective, you know, in addition to his
medication, you know, was peersupports and things like that,
where you're really.
You know, you have that backup.
Speaker 1 (56:57):
So what the care courts?
You know, you hear GovernorNewsom talk about that a lot and
my very, very basicunderstanding of and I'm not
even sure it's that accurate butsome of the narrative says that
during the Reagan, before theReagan administration, there
were I don't know, I'm going tocall it just for round number
(57:19):
100,000 beds for mental illnessin the state of California, and
then by the time the Reaganadministration finished, I don't
know, let's say it went down by90% or something that's when
the state was maybe half thepopulation that it is now.
(57:39):
What do the care courts do andhow can they fit into that?
And then, what more do we needapart from, in addition to your
stance on the involuntary stagecoming way earlier?
What else do we need?
Speaker 2 (57:57):
Well and I'm glad you brought that up, because, yeah,
that is what happened, ofcourse, when they closed those
facilities, which a lot of themwere horrible- and they weren't
doing what they should have beendoing.
Yeah, what we saw in the movies.
But those services weresupposed to transition into the
community.
It was supposed to be a nicecommunity, a mental health
(58:19):
clinic or or a place for peopleyou know, all spread around that
no one could be on the streets.
It never happened, right, sothat's one thing.
It never happened.
Even with the Mental HealthServices Act that was supposed
to be a great deal.
You know, that's themillionaire's tax, that one
percent over a million dollarsthat goes into behavioral health
(58:39):
services.
That was supposed to help withthat.
And I'm not even saying that weneed, when we say beds, not
somewhere that, okay, you knowyou messed up three times.
We're going to lock you awaynow forever.
You can't live in the community.
No, it should becommunity-based services and I
like to, I think, in a homeenvironment, you know, a
(59:01):
home-like environment.
But it's all about, yes,funding, and it's really scary
right now because a lot ofthings that used to trinkle down
that would end up from federalto state into the communities
that could help with that.
A lot of that is going away.
Helping with housing, likehaving an apartment complex my
(59:24):
thing is having a old taking ahotel and, you know, remodeling
it to housing where, you know, Idon't think grown people should
ever have to share a room.
I think that you know so.
Everyone needs their privacy.
I think they should be little,nice studios within.
You know the building that, Itell you, my son lives in now.
The only thing missing insideit's great, it's walk out the
(59:48):
door.
That's a whole differentsituation, but there's no
services in the building.
That is not a building, that'sa low-income housing structure,
but if they put the services inthere, that would be a perfect
place.
Someone that could have oh, Ithink he didn't check in today.
Keep a watchful eye.
Yeah, keep a watchful eye.
(01:00:09):
Something's going on there.
Maybe we need to call his casemanager, his counselor, a
wraparound, but they still liveand they can go and come as they
please.
Someone, though, is keeping aneye.
That, to me, is the idealsituation Client-centered, but
the clinical services and thesupports are still right there
on site and kind of tying thatinto care court.
(01:00:35):
Care court is, I think, the restof the.
There were like six, eightcounties that started it in 2023
.
Eight counties that started itin 2023.
Then the following year is whenthe rest of the states, and
it's basically it has no teeth.
Let's put it like that, meaningthere's a judge, there's the
(01:00:58):
judge's staff, there's thecounty people, there's a public
defender that represents my sonand they have a team.
You know one of the providerorganizations here does the.
You know the outreach andwhatever work, and they're
wonderful.
I always want to say that thepeople who do the work on the
(01:01:19):
ground I am never complainingabout them.
They can only do and work withwhat they have.
But the structure of the pro ofthe program is not what it was
supposed to be Like.
I said we were on that 60minutes interview and one thing
that I said I hope I never haveto use it and what?
It was a totally differentprogram that I had read about
(01:01:41):
when I did that interview inmaybe the spring of 2023, and
what rolled out in October of2023, something totally
different.
It turned into anothervoluntary program.
Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
And what do you think is behind that change?
Just that people don't want toget sued, or it's not a good
look?
Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Right, right yeah there's a strong, very strong
disability rights in the stateof California and and they stand
on the nobody should doanything involuntarily.
So they go in their lawyers.
You know the disability, theyhave a lot of lawyers.
We're just family members.
You know, some people arelawyers too, that that are in
(01:02:22):
the family member, which is whysome of the amendments that we
have been trying to put forththat's who helps us craft all
that in a group that I'm in, astatewide gravely disabled work
group, and they're, you know,they're providers, they're, you
know, a lot of people that seewhat needs to happen.
So we have to try to go backnow legislatively and make it
(01:02:47):
have some more teeth, you know,but that's what we normally are
fighting they are very muchagainst.
Here in San Diego Countythere's a patient advocacy
organization, lawyers and staffthat will go into the hospitals
where people are on aconservatorship.
Because my son was on aconservatorship once, which he
(01:03:07):
needed, and I said, just maybesix months, three months, no, he
was there, maybe 30 days, butbecause he was doing so well,
they were able to convince theconservatorship, whatever judge
that he should be released.
Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
He was back in the streets within four weeks least
he was back in the streetswithin four weeks, I think.
The Britney Spears thing itjust occurred to me, as you were
saying, that it probably didn'tdo the whole conservatorship
conversation much good right.
Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
I'm not I don't.
Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
I can't comment on her case, but that brings
everybody up into everybody'sminds like, oh, it's a bad thing
, Conservatorship is bad.
You know, that's restrictingsomeone's freedom.
But as you describe in yourson's case, like you know, as
parents you're not going to letyour when your child was young
(01:04:01):
and vulnerable.
You're not going to let themjust wander around in traffic.
You know you have to pull themback and then you don't just
keep them out of traffic one day, you keep them out of traffic
until they're old enough towhere they can learn some of
those things Right.
Right Gradual release.
Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
Yeah, and she wasn't locked away anywhere either.
She still lived on her own.
She had the fact.
I said she has money and and itwas guardrails that saved her.
You know, I don't know how youknow she's doing that, but I
would love to know.
But it may not be good, but, um, that is is what that's the
(01:04:38):
part.
Right there I said but youdon't understand, especially
when you have a historical lookat I told 25 years.
So I know I can look in hiseyes and know, yeah, in the
beginning, yeah, I said, oh, no,did he stop?
And then I'll ask my husband,like if he was when he was, you
know, living at home, and evenif my son was visiting or
(01:05:00):
something, and I'd say, are younoticing it?
Kind of, because he starts topull away, you could pass him in
the kitchen or the hallway, noeye contact, and he's a very you
know, he has a very good senseof humor.
So he's going to say somethingfunny or say, mom, you want to
watch a movie, or you know,whatever.
You know, and all of the thingsthat he wants, and this has to
(01:05:25):
be a mind that is notfunctioning well, all the things
he wants he can actually haveif he was just stay in treatment
.
And I know the medication sideeffects are horrible.
I've heard it from many people,my staff when I worked for NAMI
(01:05:47):
.
I had up to 15 people before Ileft and they were all peers or
family members like myself, andthey had master's degrees, they
were married, they had children,but they said, yep, I carry
around 15, 20 pounds of extraweight but I have a life.
You know, some people can makethat distinction.
(01:06:10):
People with anosognosia cannot.
And so he could have all thethings you know a wife, a
girlfriend, you know childrenand have a quality life, but his
mind can't.
And I said after 25 years, don'tyou think that maybe a
conservatorship for him to stayon his meds?
(01:06:31):
That's all he needs is aconservatorship like, kind of
like the Britney Spears whenhers was about money though,
because she had a lot of money,but for him it would be that
they would never see him in ajail again.
They would never, just like,like my younger son, never been
to jail, never been arrested,never.
You know he was that kid, youknow he was that man, but never
(01:06:54):
would he have ever hit the jailor prison.
He probably has a rap sheet thelength of this room, but it was
all behind whenever he was andI said you notice he never gets
arrested when he's on his meds.
So you know there's so manyhistorical things that can be
used to me to say, yeah, we'vegiven you a whole bunch of
(01:07:14):
chances to do it voluntarily andit seems like you want to be
ending up back at the same spotagain.
Speaker 1 (01:07:22):
We're going to help you out with that again, we're
going to help you out with that.
How much of your conversationsintersect with entities who are
working to try to address theissue, which seems almost
unaddressable, of homelessnessjust in our county, our state
(01:07:45):
and our country, because there'sI mean, you described Pharaoh's
journey and recursivelyinvolved homelessness.
I'm sure that, extrapolatingfrom that, there are 5,000 cases
down the hill from here thatare very similar in a lot of
ways.
Right, right, how much of thework that you've seen of, let's
(01:08:07):
say, the city of San Diegotrying to address homelessness
also intersects with NAMI andthat work, yeah, understanding,
I know you're working withTraining Pert.
That's part of it From asolution standpoint.
Speaker 2 (01:08:22):
Yes, all of it intersects the programs at NAMI.
Nami opened up a clubhouse heredowntown, not too far from here
.
That is for people who arehomeless, that may have mental
health issues.
They can come in there.
They even do the showers theydo.
So NAMI has become a solutionspace.
It used to be education,advocacy and you know like
(01:08:47):
support groups.
Yes, yes and things, but nowthey're in the community doing
the work.
So, yes, they do work withMayor Gloria and the Behavioral
Health.
They are part of the system nowthat is also providing services
.
We have other clubhouses aswell in San Diego County, and so
(01:09:07):
, yes, it is about what theyalways stood for, you know,
education, support and advocacy,but they also now are doing the
on the ground, hoping to touchbut that is one way, like they
say the homelessness they dohave.
You know, one residential home.
Actually, it was a personpassed away that had started
this home many years ago.
(01:09:29):
It's in North County though,but she willed it to NAMI to say
continue this work, and itwould be great.
But what does it always take?
Money, money.
Speaker 1 (01:09:40):
It's always about the money it's money, and it's also
people being willing to have itin their neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (01:09:46):
Oh yes, yes, the NIMBYism is real.
The NIMBYism is real.
Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
Yeah yeah, recovery home, whatever.
It's nice, but just don't putit on my block.
Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And actually where Pharaoh wasjust a few months ago, it was a
very quiet little street andthey normally under what they
call the ILF, the IndependentLiving Association.
They are homes.
They're not facilities or bighotels, they are home-like
(01:10:17):
environments where they get hotcooked meals and so on, and the
residents are, yes, of course,allowed to go and come.
But they say you know, at nightyou got to turn the, you know,
you know you have to be in by acertain time, you know can't be
loud and just like you can'tnormally.
So that is another solution.
We do have those, but it'salways not enough.
(01:10:38):
There is a lot of, like I said,great things going on in San
Diego, but it is not enough alot of times.
Speaker 1 (01:10:48):
So if you could wave a magic wand, it sounds like you
would change the structure sothat there could be that
involuntary intervention early.
There could be that involuntaryintervention early, obviously
(01:11:08):
more education ongoing to removesome of the stigma.
It sounds like when you were inyour own crisis point of like,
hey, my kid needs help.
Now they're like here, takethis class.
That you would recommend thatfor people, right?
Yes so we'll definitely link toNemi's website and those
(01:11:29):
resources.
What about the role of culturein the way that we respond to
issues of mental health?
Do you run into?
Depending on what communityyou're working in?
Do you run into?
Depending on what communityyou're working in, different
communities must have differentreactions and understandings of
(01:11:53):
mental health, I'd imagine right.
Speaker 2 (01:11:55):
Yes, absolutely.
In my role at NAMI when I wasthe education director, there
were five threshold languages.
So whenever you had a contractwith the county you had to make
sure you provide it.
So I got to work with manycommunities.
Like we had a contract with aVietnamese social services
(01:12:19):
organization where the materialwas translated to be in there
and not just word for word.
It was like culturally itneeded to be so to serve the
Vietnamese community.
We did it in Arabic.
We have a large Chaldeanpopulation, especially in the
East County.
I worked with that agency.
They were trained and theywouldn't take a training from a
(01:12:43):
peer.
Remember I told you the NAMIprograms are peer-to-peer type
training.
They said, oh no, that personhas to be a person who is a
doctor or what.
Speaker 1 (01:12:52):
So that's how they did that cultural piece.
Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
So that's how that one was taught for that Spanish,
of course we did, you knowSpanish population, we did it.
And I remember that we weretold, because it said two and a
half hours and we would you know, we didn't have enough funding
to, you know, rent all thesedifferent places because we used
to have to do 20 classes a yearand for the families and
(01:13:17):
another 15 classes for the peercommunity.
Well, that was a lot of spacesgoing on for eight and 12 weeks.
Well, that was a lot of spacesgoing on for eight and 12 weeks,
and so we didn't have money todo that.
So we would be at the mercy of,like a church that would let us
, or a community center,something that was free.
Well, a lot of times we said,yes, this is a two and a half
hour class with a half hour for,you know, cleanup and set up
(01:13:39):
and whatever.
Well, and I remember one of theSpanish speaking facilitators
said to me they said you know,we like we talk, we have to talk
, we have to have food, we haveto.
So we needed more time.
So we knew we needed to addmore time.
So we always, you know,addressed it in that way.
(01:13:59):
So, yeah, that was English,spanish, arabic and Vietnamese.
We had one more, yeah, becausethe Arabic was for Caldean, and
that was one more.
Yeah, I know, we saidVietnamese.
Yeah, because I just remember.
Yeah, maybe that was the five,including English of course, but
(01:14:20):
that was the most.
That was the best thing I usedto love to go to the graduations
.
Is that the last class of athreshold language?
But older adults, you know,just like my son now is in that
category of an older adultliving a serious mental illness.
Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
Yeah he's.
Speaker 2 (01:14:44):
You know, it was really 50 and above, but he's
almost there, and so we did aclass that was geared towards
that population.
They have different needs, sothat's cultural too.
So yeah, so that's cultural too.
Speaker 1 (01:14:57):
So yeah, yeah.
It's a fascinating study ofhumanity right and the role of
communities, the role of family.
How has your younger sonhandled this?
It's got to be an interestingbalance at home, right?
Oh yes, it's going to be aninteresting balance at home,
(01:15:21):
right?
Oh yes, to raise a son, toraise both your sons, who you,
you, you each, you, you loveeach of them, 100 with 100 of
your being but that's what itmeans to be a parent.
Yes, but they have differentneeds.
And so did you ever findyourself looking to your younger
son and going oh man, I man, Iwish you know we need to invest
more time in you, but we havethis, just this kind of burning
building over here?
Speaker 2 (01:15:41):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:15:42):
How does, how does a family manage that?
Speaker 2 (01:15:45):
We have talked about that recent, and one of the
things that I'm glad that we didis he was too young to come to
family, to family.
So everything we learned, wecome home and tell him and talk
to him.
I wanted him to understand whatwas going on with his brother.
Then he went out of state tocollege and I remember when he
(01:16:10):
came home, my son was still thenliving at home with us and he,
as soon as he left, he just hitthe bottom, you know.
As soon as he left, he just hitthe bottom, you know, and I
said, oh, they pick.
And I remember he was sittingin his dorm and he cried and I
hadn't seen my son cry since hewas a little boy, you know,
something scraped his knee and Isaid, oh my God, I'm never
(01:16:33):
going to tell him again.
When he's not doing well, hejust it hurt him so bad.
And they have a lovelyrelationship right now.
But when he was younger Iremember he played all kind of
sports and whatever.
So my husband would go that waywith him, I would be over here
finding, trying to do whatever.
And I remember he said and Iasked him, you know, because I
(01:16:55):
remember that our former CEO ofNAMI was did it wrote a book
actually about the sibling.
She was a sibling and she wrotea book and she was interviewing
siblings of individuals.
And I remember he said I justremember you weren't at a lot of
my games on Saturday, I justremember you weren't at a lot of
(01:17:20):
my games on Saturday and thatthat kind of Dad I know dad was
there but you weren't there, youknow.
So I did it, did take away andI even and I'm so glad you asked
me that, because a lot of timesI'll go through this story,
this, so I make sure that evenin my presentations I have
family pictures I said, yeah, Ihave another son you know, who's
a great guy, you know, and Iwant to talk about him some you
(01:17:40):
know a little bit as well.
So I always try to rememberthat, yes, that there is another
son, that another family memberyou know, immediate family
member that's also has livedthis.
You know, in his adult years hehas gone to clean out hotel
rooms, motel rooms, apartments,went to the streets and I
(01:18:05):
remember he, when he first camehome he was working downtown and
he said, mom, he where he lived, he would ride the trolley to
work and he said I left earliertoday because I wanted to stop
at my bank and get some moneybefore I went in and I get off
(01:18:26):
at the stop earlier.
And then I just walked the restof the way.
He said literally in acrosswalk, and he looked and he
said Pharaoh, it was his brother.
I said but God, I'm a spiritualperson.
I said that's God.
And I said what he said.
Yeah, he'd been out therehomeless at that time and he
(01:18:50):
said come over here.
And he said we sat down and hesaid let me call mom, come on,
let me get you some help.
Pharaoh's wrapped in theblankets.
And he said he says ah, peopleout here, look out for me.
He said so I gave him somemoney and I you know, and I just
can't imagine what the rest ofhis walk was.
You know that day, but he's hadto live through this right along
(01:19:13):
with us.
You know he loves his brotherand when he's doing well, when I
see them together again talkingabout sports and movies and
women, and you know justeverything, you know and the
laughing, and sometimes I seethe dynamic change.
He's the older brother.
Come on, pharaoh, let me put.
I'm going to take you some food, I'm going to bring you this.
(01:19:35):
I'm going to do this and then,when he's well, again I watch it
go through, because Pharaoh'svery thoughtful and very you
know when it comes to.
Sometimes I even found myselfhe says well, mom, this is.
And I said, you know what?
I never thought of it that way.
So he's got a very good and Ican see it switch back where the
(01:19:56):
younger son is getting advicefrom his older brother again
about life stuff.
But I see it go like this thedynamic of who's sort of the?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:20:11):
Does Pharaoh have the ?
Well?
I know you talked about thelack of self-awareness.
That's a medical condition.
Does he have an understandingof his biological fathers?
Speaker 2 (01:20:25):
Yes, Because after he left our life, I didn't know
what happened to him for 27years until he died.
To him for 27 years until hedied.
Yeah, we found out that he diedbecause he did leave part of
(01:20:48):
his.
He left his, what it was leftof his military whatever to him.
That was a shock.
They didn't know how to find myson because they had our
address up in northernCalifornia.
But eventually they found himand I was like who is this?
Somebody died.
My husband was like because heworked for the government.
He said that's federalgovernment life insurance.
That's how we knew that he died.
(01:21:10):
But it's been in the last 10,18 years, 18 years.
Oh, and part of this story tooand this is another God part it
was about 15 years of thisjourney with Pharaoh.
I did a talk at just a littleclass or something and a person
(01:21:31):
followed me out of the class andshe said I help veterans get
their discharges upgraded.
And I said, yeah, I've heardthat you can do that, but, gosh,
every time they just give us afive.
She says no, no, no, it's myjob, that's what I do, and so I
had that transcript.
I had all of his stuff that Ikind of held on to.
(01:21:53):
That wasn't lost and Pharaohhad.
I gave him my favorite officesupply as a sheet protector.
My Pharaoh put it all in thereand in a big binder.
We handed her that binder.
It took her a year and a half.
He got his bad conduct dischargeupgraded to a 100% disabled
(01:22:13):
veteran.
So he now has a source ofincome.
He can receive his services atthe veteran vet VA hospital.
He can shop at the commissary.
You know, this was just a great, great and still and he was
again doing well, like I said,he has these periods.
(01:22:33):
It could be three to five yearsof maybe doing, but in recent
years for some reason he's.
He's just any cycles.
Yeah, shorter cycles.
And he says it's the sideeffects of the medication which
are horrible.
I mean, one of them even had acommercial about that medication
.
You're the lawyers If you'vebeen taking this medication.
It makes men grow breasts, youknow.
(01:22:55):
So who wants to stay on amedication that does that, you
know.
Or he said you just feelsedated all the time, you just
feel I don't have any energy.
I don't, you know, and I can'timagine.
And you have to take that, thered, basically the rest of your
life.
You know.
Yes, there are long actinginjectables which make it like
you don't have to remember thepills every night, but that has
(01:23:19):
the same side effects in a lotof ways.
And then one of them is tardivedyskinesia.
You see the commercial on TVfor the medication now that can
help with the tardive dyskinesia.
They didn't have that Well, it'sinvoluntary movements, you're
sitting there trying to be on adate and your face is twisting
up or whatever you know.
So you can't imagine.
You know that that's having tolive with some of those side
(01:23:42):
effects.
It's not just like weight gainor something like that erectile
dysfunction all these thingsthat come along with that
medication.
So, yeah, you, you might stopit, but, um, again, only think a
person with, because there aremany people that stay on them
you know, in spite of all thosethings, but a person with the
(01:24:04):
anosognosia feature.
You know that still is difficult.
Speaker 1 (01:24:11):
Well, you've been so generous with your time and your
story and your openness andcandor about your family.
It's very touching reflectingon and listening to you these
moments when serendipitousthings happened in your life.
You know one of them beingrunning into this woman who
(01:24:36):
devotes her time to gettingbenefits figured out and
discharges figured out forveterans and other experiences
that you've had.
I have one last question for youBefore we get there.
Do you have anything that hasbeen kind of kicking around in
your head that we have not yettouched on in this conversation
(01:24:57):
that you think would benefitlisteners?
Speaker 2 (01:25:01):
No, I would just want to leave them with, even if you
don't have I mean, you probablydo.
The statistic is one in five.
You know people, there's someform of it around you.
Be the casserole person, youknow, even if it's for the
family, you know that's a greatt-shirt, yes yes, and also, you
(01:25:24):
know, with someone that's havesay, I, you know I don't
understand it, but I can listenor I can take you for a cup of
coffee not maybe the individualor the family member, just kind
of going through it.
And there's even aneducation-like program.
It's called Mental Health FirstAid and it's just for the
general public to understandwhat mental illness is and is
(01:25:47):
not.
I always say so.
I would just say to have a moreopen mind about it.
We don't want anyone to go upand say, oh, that guy's
struggling, let me go over thereand try to help him.
No, we don't want anyone to goup and say, oh, that guy's
struggling, let me go over thereand try to help him.
No, we don't want you to dothat, um, but just just, you
know, kind of have an open mindand understanding about it and
if you want, educate yourselfthere's a lot on the internet
(01:26:09):
now as well and but make sureyou get it from a good source
you know, yes so the the lastquestion is a hypothetical so
let's say you're given theopportunity to create a
billboard on the side of thefreeway.
Speaker 1 (01:26:26):
what does your billboard say to the world about
the journey that has becomeyour work, that has become your
work, that has become your life?
What do you want the public asthey're driving by, wrapped up
in their own minds and their ownworlds?
What do you want them to takeaway?
(01:26:49):
Other?
Speaker 2 (01:26:51):
than be the casserole person.
I would want to have a messageabout that.
Mental illness is a treatablemedical condition.
That's what I would want to saythat it is not a person that
just needs to shake it off andget it together or whatever it
takes treatment, and so just toremind people it's a treatable
(01:27:12):
medical condition.
The definition of mentalillness is this is a fact sheet.
It's longer than what I'm aboutto say, but it says mental
illness is a medical conditionthat disrupts a person's
speaking, feeling and ability torelate to others and daily
functioning.
Just that sentence.
(01:27:33):
Right, there is what I alwaysstart with in my presentations
as well, because I want toremind people that it is a
medical condition.
So that's probably what mybillboard would say, and on a
personal, I would probably say25 years later, and I'm still
standing.
You know, that would be for mypersonal one.
Speaker 1 (01:27:54):
Thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and
your energy and your hope in themidst of challenges.
It's really been inspiring forme.
Thank you so much for your timeand your wisdom and your energy
and your hope in the midst ofchallenges.
It's really been inspiring forme.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:28:01):
Well, thank you for inviting me.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:28:06):
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Hangout
Podcast.
To support our show, pleaseclick the support our show link.
If you choose to make adonation, it's much appreciated.
Any amount, however small, willmake a difference.
I want to emphasize as wellthat this show is entirely
(01:28:26):
private and separate from my dayjob and as such, all opinions
and views expressed herein aremine and mine alone.
Thank you for coming on in tohang out.
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