Chantale Suttle drops in, sharing her professional journey that led to the creation of a law firm dedicated to representing fathers, DADvocacy. Her insights reveal a legal landscape that has often overlooked the needs of single dads, exposing gaps that our conversation seeks to bridge. We also examine the role mediation plays in resolving family disputes, while dissecting child support myths and emphasizing the value of education and understanding. Plus, we touch on the foresight provided by prenuptial agreements and the importance of relationship coaching and cooling-off periods when disputes arise.
DADvocacy Law Firm:
dadvocacy.com
Kenneth Watkins' Story:
nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/02/nyc-acs-child-custody-foster-care.html
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
In the moments after Kenny's birth, kenneth Watkins,
kenny's father, experienced ajoy unlike any other, but little
did he know that the bliss ofparenthood would soon be
replaced by a battle with theAdministration for Children's
Services of New York City, alsoknown as ACS.
They're tasked with promotingthe safety and well-being of New
York City's children andfamilies by providing child
(00:22):
welfare, juvenile justice, andearly care and education
services.
In March 2017, a routinewelfare check by the ACS turned
into a life-altering event forKenneth and his newborn son.
The ACS caseworkers arrived atthe Bronx apartment and, despite
Watkins having no history ofviolence or wrongdoing, they
(00:42):
deemed Kenny to be in imminentdanger due to the complicated
history of his mother.
You see, kenneth had no historyof violence or wrongdoing.
They deemed Kenny to be inimminent danger due to the
complicated history of hismother.
You see, kenneth had no historyof violence or mental illness.
In contrast, baby Kenny'smother had a troubled history of
abusive relationships and hadnine previous children, all of
whom either ended up in fostercare or were adopted.
In the backdrop of a system withvast powers to separate
(01:04):
families, a system where one infive negligent petitions
resulted in the removal of achild from their parents, baby
Kenny's case took a unique turn,falling into the subset of
removals that occur before anycourt petition is even filed, an
emergency measure meant forcases of immediate danger.
Watkins faced a challengingscenario at the courthouse.
(01:24):
The ACS targeted only themother, treating her as the
defendant Due to her existingmarriage to someone else.
Kenneth wasn't automaticallyrecognized as baby Kenny's
father.
To have official standing inthe case, he needed to prove his
paternity while Kenny wasplaced in foster care.
After two long years, kennethultimately succeeded in
regaining custody of his son.
(01:45):
After a prolonged andemotionally taxing legal battle
with the ACS, kenneth won.
In December 2019, he wasfinally reunited with his son at
the Children's Aid Society inHarlem and embarked on the
journey to rebuild their livestogether.
Baby Kenny's mother alsocontinues to be involved in his
life, despite the history of hismother and the circumstances
that led to Baby Kenny's motheralso continues to be involved in
(02:05):
his life.
Despite the history of hismother and the circumstances
that led to Baby Kenny's removal, kenneth acknowledges the
significance of maintaining aconnection between Kenny and his
biological mother.
Parenthood can leave youcraving knowledge, hungry for
answers to the many questionsthat arise on our journey.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
A whole lot of sacrificing so that you know in
the end, hopefully it all paysoff.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
But what happens when we're left feeling angry
because we just can't find theinsights we need?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
So when I say mitigate, it's all about keeping
them grounded.
It's all about always makingsure that they understand.
This is not owed to you.
Whether it's navigating theterrible twos and toddler temper
tantrums or battling throughteenage rebellion, the hunger
for parenting techniques canquickly turn to frustration when
answers seem difficult to find.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
There has to be a trust between that 16-year-old
and that parent, and if there'sno trust, then a conversation
has to be had In the midst ofthis chaos.
It's no wonder that we oftenfind ourselves with grumbling
stomachs and cravings that justwon't quit.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
But here we embrace the idea that food is not just
sustenance but a source ofcomfort and connection in the
journey of parenthood.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Welcome to the Hangry Parent Podcast.
We satisfy not only our hungerfor delicious food, but also our
craving for parental guidance,so grab a snack, settle in and
join us as we navigate thechallenges of parenting.
One bite at a time.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
My original first job right out of law school is I
was an assistant state attorneyin the child support enforcement
division, primarilyrepresenting moms enforcing
child support in Dade Countycourts.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Meet Chantel Settle, founder of the Davocacy Law Firm
based out of Miami-Dade Countyin Florida.
So they focus on fathers whoare dealing with family law
matters like child custody,divorce, visitation, you know
things like that.
As you just heard, her previousfocus was on representing moms.
So what changed?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
So I did go to law school with kind of a social
work bent on my career goals.
I really just felt that mycareer would take me in the
family realm, working withchildren, with parents.
I was a social work major,ended up a poli-sci double major
and really felt like everythingthat made me upset, everything
that made me passionate, wasalways centered around family
policies, regulations andfunding of families that you
(04:54):
know for good or for bad.
So I did have my first job atthe State Attorney's Office
Child Support Enforcement Office, which was basically following
my mentor, Priscilla Quinones,who had the same counterpart
position in Tallahassee, and Itook her class in college.
So I was there.
I was primarily representingmoms.
About two years into the job Iwent out on my own.
(05:15):
I was in private practice forprobably about another seven
years and then I had theopportunity to take the bench as
a magistrate judge in thefamily law courtroom,
specifically the child supportenforcement courtroom.
And then I had the opportunityto take the bench as a
magistrate judge in the familylaw courtroom, specifically the
child support enforcementcourtroom, and it was there that
I kind of saw the other, themiddle side, and the more
neutral and balanced view of thestruggles of both single moms
(05:37):
and single dads and as I sat inthat job, I saw dads struggling,
dads without affordablerepresentation, dads having a
couple of months badcircumstance whether it was
illness and arrest, immigrationissues, whatever it was that
transpired.
For the course of just a couplemonths I got laid off and as
soon as I was laid off I wasprobably incorporated, getting
(06:00):
ready to start advocacy within afew months after, because the
hole was gaping.
There was a free service forsingle moms and there was
nothing even slightly affordablefor dads.
And the cases I never thoughtwere difficult.
They're not a maritime, they'renot a plane crash on a cruise
ship with six kinds ofinternational law.
(06:21):
The statutes are extremelytight.
There's not that many.
It's very clean.
It's very clear.
The need to have thousands ofdollars to hire a lawyer to get
you through that maze seemimpossible for so many dads.
So I really honed in on findinga way to represent them,
maintain a good relationshipwith the Child Support
(06:42):
Enforcement Office, trying toreally maintain a place where
you know my dad can help here.
My dad wants to see the kids,my dad wants to be involved, my
dad wants to be seen as morethan just a wallet.
And mom isn't just lackingmoney, she's also lacking time.
She's also lacking a second setof eyes on a sprained ankle.
She's also, you know, wanting asecond opinion as to whether or
(07:04):
not to get the child tested forgifted or tested for a learning
disability.
She wants and needs that help.
Dad wants to give it.
The system is not entirelyhelping their co-parenting, but
I thought I could bringsomething at a very affordable
cost that could help dads, andeven the dads that I couldn't
(07:25):
help, even the dads that wereoutside of my jurisdiction or
they could not afford me.
They are benefited by my very,very chunky website.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
So I went to our website, davocacycom, and she
was right.
There was a ton of usefulinformation under the DIY tool
shed area of the site.
So I'm looking at it right nowand I see helpful guides, advice
on how to do things that youreally don't need a lawyer for,
child support myths so manythings.
So if you're curious, I feellike you should check out her
(07:55):
website, which I posted in thedescription of this episode.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
The best example of that is the reinstatement of the
driver's license.
A lot of dads will lose theirdriver's license, get it
suspended for non-payment ofsupport and mom's going.
Wait, I need him to pick up thekids.
He does that on Wednesdays andFridays.
I need him to have his license.
Mom doesn't necessarily startthat train.
The child support office does.
We're like you know you can doit by yourself.
It's not hard.
(08:20):
They won't buy over a childsupport.
Just you know, give them a call, go down there, bring this
document, try and get some helpover there on your own.
We know that we're doingsomething to educate dads, that
we don't want them to see thatchild support office as an
impenetrable wall that theycan't work and cooperate with.
So we offer lots of resources.
(08:40):
We offer back doors to get intothat office.
You know we have links on ourwebsite that link back over to
child support.
We just introduced our passportreinstatement program.
We have instructions on how todo that for free.
People still want to hire usbecause sometimes they get
intimidated or it's a heavyemotional burden and they're
(09:02):
really happy to have us insulatethem from it.
But we just didn't want to playWizard of Oz with the mechanism
and the procedures.
So we've put them out there andI hope that when I retire that
I will have helped more dadsthat I didn't represent even
than I did from those resourcesthat are out there.
(09:23):
That really kind of help you,kind of sew your life back
together.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Can you speak on a little bit of like the mediation
process?
Because I don't think.
I think there's a perceptiontoo that it's either one way or
the other way, but I know I'veseen that you've been pointed as
a mediator in certain cases ofjust like what common ground can
we find, which I always find isvery important when it comes to
being a parent.
It's not about his way or herway.
(09:48):
It's maybe a common groundbecause, believe it or not, we
all have the same goal we wantto make sure that the child's
living a great life and thatboth parents are involved.
But is that something you stilldo as far as mediation?
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Well, I am a mediator .
I typically don't mediate caseswith advocacy.
I have been in that neutralposition with two dads, so I
have been asked to mediate maybea divorce with two dads or a
custody throwdown with two dads,and I'm also a certified
parenting coordinator and I'veworked with two dads.
But wearing the advocacy labelon a mom versus dad situation, I
(10:22):
don't think that's going to sitwell with mom.
Moms do find their way to ourwebsite and we have a little, a
little place for them that sayswe can talk to you, but you
probably don't want us.
And here's a phone number forthe Florida Bar and here's a
number for the child supportoffice in case you wandered here
on accident.
We don't want to make it harderfor them to get the help they
need, but we're really dadoriented.
(10:43):
Having said that, I am amediator because I hugely
believe in mediation and I don'tbelieve mediation is just that
day, that appointment, thatenvironment.
I think you should have amediation mindset on at all
times.
As an attorney and as a litigant, I think moms and dads must
always keep one eye on creative,calm, compromising solutions,
(11:03):
so that the child who watchesthe fray between them and
there's the child who never seesthat argument.
They're at school, they have noidea what's being texted back
and forth, but they still feelit.
They still got a stressed,tired, grumpy parent who dealt
with the other co-parent at somepoint in the day and the child
feels that exhaustion, thatfrustration.
(11:24):
So we don't just, you know,encourage people to keep it out
of the actual eyes and ears ofthe child, just keep it out of
your life altogether is going tobe better for your child.
So we want a compromising, youknow, middle ground, respectful
mindset, always.
We we try on our website todispel a lot of myths.
(11:47):
A lot of people think that momis doing this.
It's her idea to do X, y and Z,sometimes for public benefits,
for working with the childsupport office.
She's forced.
We've made a really, reallytried hard to get dads educated
about that so that they can stoppointing a finger and being
angry that the mom individuallydid this to them for some
(12:08):
vindictive purpose.
She usually did not.
It's rare that she did.
I can't.
I won't say that there's notvindictiveness and revenge.
I'm just saying that youshouldn't be encouraged to go
there first, see if there'ssomething else going on, and we
want that to be our attitude,our mindset, because we are in a
case.
Sometimes they drag, but we arein a case for a limited period
(12:31):
of time and after we're done andafter the other lawyer is done
and the judge is gone, thesepeople have to still co-parent
together, and it's not till 18.
It's for always.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
For always.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
yes, For always.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
yes, I like that.
I stumbled upon some morethings that you are a part of
here, and that was just prenupshere.
But what can you talk about?
Just prenups?
How does that intertwine withadvocacy at all?
And what can you talk about asfar as, like, the importance of
having a prenup and apostnuptial agreement?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Thanks.
So advocacy is my litigationcompany and advocacy was born 13
years ago.
I am 52 years old, so with aneye towards my retirement, I
started just prenups, whichactually was in development in
my mind, and I bought the domainand did that kind of thing.
At the same time that Ideveloped advocacy, I felt that
(13:24):
my community kind of was in acrisis.
Advocacy was a serious need inthe community.
Getting dads some help, gettingsome resources out to dads, was
really really important.
And at the same time we werealso at advocacy involved with
other companies andorganizations that were
promoting dads in different ways.
And at the same time we werealso at Davide to see involved
with other companies andorganizations that were
promoting dads in different ways.
And so there was kind of amovement and the small community
(13:46):
of Miami was telling me dadswere in crisis and then the
bigger community of the UnitedStates was telling me that dads
are poorly regarded.
So I wanted to really beinvolved in the change of that
conversation and being a womanand a mom was really important
for the words to come from me.
Just prenups is kind of myretirement baby.
It is born of my desire tomediate prenups and do something
(14:10):
different with prenups.
Prenups are no longer that AnnaNicole Smith situation.
Most prenups today are a veryunified couple who really fear
the legal system more than theyfear each other.
They know that their financesand their plans, their goals,
can be kind of taken hostage bytheir respective attorneys and
(14:31):
by their divorce judge and theycan be paralyzed with regard to
business decisions, investments,relocations, all those things.
So with just prenups I actuallywanted to help cure the problem
I was making money from creating.
So I thought that if I came inwith a new kind of prenup that I
(14:54):
could bring something reallynovel to the table.
So my prenup is a littledifferent.
It has all the engine and thewheels, what a separation
happens, what a separation is,who moves out all those things.
And then, if that separationperiod doesn't result in
reconciliation, they can callfor marriage.
Relationship coaching as wellas marriage counseling are built
(15:15):
into my prenups.
Some cool down period a littlebit of a 30 days, 90 days,
everyone think before we jump,thing that I've built into my
preups.
Some cool down period, a littlebit of a 30 days, 90 days,
everyone think before we jumpthing that I've built into my
prenups because Florida,strangely, is one of five states
that doesn't recognizeseparation.
You're either married or you'refiled which makes people move
way, way faster than they'reemotionally ready.
(15:36):
So they have to file to stoptheir spouse's debts from going
to them.
They have to file to stop sothat their spouse's business
decisions they're not beholdento.
So with that knee jerk, we geta very fast decision on how to
do this.
Who's your lawyer?
What's the strategy?
Is there a way out?
(15:58):
Is there a reconciliation?
Is this marriage really over?
And I feel that Florida, justbasically, you know the way our
law is written they just want toset the world afire with this
rush to get a lawyer.
So I thought the prenups couldbe written in a way that would
get a couple who are in lovetrusting each other now to make
(16:19):
decisions for when they don't.
And I ask them I think let'sset your boundaries On the worst
thing you can imagine, and thenwe can be more generous from
there and the worst thing youcan imagine Is different for
every person, but from there,what are your boundaries?
And then what does the otherpartner say?
Their response would be so theyactually are in mediation
(16:42):
sessions with me as a mediator,to create their own agreement
that I draft for them.
But it is their agreement, andso I wanted to bring something
better there too.
Florida doesn't do a great jobwith this no separation thing.
It really makes people rush,and the data that we're getting
from the mental health communityis that many divorces are
(17:02):
regretted, maybe not six monthsout, but a year out, five years
out.
People are asked do you regretyour divorce?
And a lot of people say, yeah,I wish I was still with my ex,
because I've not felt as goodabout my life myself, my future,
as I did with my ex.
And they also say, no, I'mstill glad I'm divorced, but I
wish I hadn't gone about it theway it happened.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
And so I really would like for fewer people to feel
that way after their divorce andmaybe just prenups can help
them with a slower, calmerprocess with lots of decisions
made ahead of time it's a littledifferent there, so but that,
no, I think that's, that'sawesome and it comes from a good
place and I think that's, youknow, part of the reason why I
(17:48):
wanted to talk to you.
It's not just to try to break,kind of this again the
stereotypes, that becauseprenups against stereotypes.
Oh, you think this is not goingto work.
I was like, no, it's not,that's not going to work, I just
want to.
There's oh, I like to look atplan a, plan B, plan C, always
nuts, you know, to a detrimentof mine sometimes.
(18:08):
But but I just always was goingto be prepared.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Yeah, yeah, it's exactly that.
The prenup is written in a planA, we call for four, six, eight
weeks of marriage counseling.
Plan B we move out and we moveout for 90 days and we go our
separate ways 30, 60, 90,whatever 90 days with a mediated
plan for moving the childrenaround, if there are any.
(18:30):
And then plan C we couldn'tmake it work.
Here's the divorce.
Here's what it looks like.
Here's how we determine income.
Here's how we determine.
You know those things.
The prenup calls for mediationto be done instead of court
first.
So there's lots of things inthere that it is exactly what
you said A plan A, a plan B andsadly, the worst plan is the
(18:52):
plan C.
At least make it calmer, lessexpensive.
If you can't cure the marriage,at least don't go broke on the
process out the door.
That's never good for anybody.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
No, not at all.
Okay.
So then I have a segment hereI'm calling ALA, which is ask a
lawyer anything.
It's just some questions that Igathered from others and I just
wanted to throw you away andsee if you can kind of help them
out here.
Okay, sure, I'm speaking fromFlorida only, but yes, and I
just wanted to throw you awayand see if you can kind of help
them out here.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
OK, sure, so I'm from Florida only, but yes, yes,
very important.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Each state is a little different here, right?
So first question I have in themeantime is it true that if a
child 14 or older, a child hasthe right to choose a custodial
parent, depending on the state?
And I was looking into this alittle further myself and I saw
that Florida is not a state thatdoes not have the ability for a
child to choose in a way, butyou can again educate me on that
(19:47):
because you're more of theexpert than I am.
But basically the questionwould be what goes into a
decision where parents don'tagree and a judge would factor
the child's opinion into theequation for states that do
support the right to choose?
Speaker 3 (20:01):
child's opinion into the equation for states that do
support the right to choose.
Well, I think all states havethe wishes of the child as a
consideration.
The problem is a mechanical onehow does the judge hear from
the child?
So that conversation betweenthe child and the judge is
usually blocked by protocol.
No Florida judge is going tojust let a child come on by and
(20:21):
have a conversation.
Usually that is an in-cameraand recorded conversation,
in-camera being alone, with thejudge recorded.
And it is very rare that ajudge will do it without some
kind of counselor, guardiantherapist saying this child can
handle that kind of pressure.
So to ask a child who they wantto live with is loaded with how
(20:46):
each parent may have beeninfluencing that child and we
want to make sure that thosetypes of influences carrots and
sticks are not involved in thatchild's process to arrive at
that place.
Sometimes when we send in thatprofessional to garner the
position of the child, we getvery surprising information.
(21:09):
I represented a dad many yearsago who had a heck of a time
with his daughter who had becomea teenager and she would cry
and go on and on that.
She didn't want to go to herfather's house and he was
devastated.
He didn't know what was goingon.
And it turns out that she hadreally rough time with her
menstrual cycle and didn't wantto discuss it with dad and only
(21:30):
felt comfortable with mom whenthat was happening.
And I asked him is she alwaysrefusing to go to your house?
And he said no, it's weird.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
He hadn't really noticed thepattern, but that's what was
going on.
Something as simple asmenstruation was very resolvable
.
Dad got more educated and momand dad agreed that on those
weekends she felt morecomfortable at mom's house.
(21:52):
She stayed at mom's.
We've had children, say I've hada child that wanted to stay at
one house more than the otherbecause the ride to school, the
carpool from dad's house, wasmore fun than the carpool from
mom's house.
Well, that doesn't haveanything to do with either
parent.
So we look at those things welove to hear when a child is
motivated by other things otherthan loving one parent more than
(22:15):
the other.
They tend to not.
They just, in different phasesof their lives, need one parent
more than the other or are veryresistant to one parent more
than the other.
I have lots and lots and lots ofcases where I've had teenage
boys suddenly want to go livewith dad and devastated moms who
are like this is the thanks Iget.
I've been doing the heavier,the heavier load of this.
(22:37):
You know, in the traditionalyou know, time sharing model, we
had a mom with a greaterpercentage of time and now her
14 year old wants to go livewith dad and she's saying what
the heck is this?
And she is possibly notunderstanding the dynamic of
that boy's puberty affecting him.
What he's open about with momand he feels more open with dad
(22:58):
sometimes at that point.
So there's a lot of externalthings that go on with children.
Teen years are harder than ever.
So I actually back Florida'sposition of not necessarily
letting a child choose butletting their choice be
influential in a judge'sdecision.
As long as we understand howthat process is occurring for
the child, is it a well thoughtout process?
(23:20):
And sometimes it's things thatare very silly to you and I what
friends are in the carpool, butit's important to them.
We always have to forget thatthings seem really different
when you're that age than whenyou're our age.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
OK.
So next question how do youobtain custody if a parent
becomes MIA?
Do you need to have the otherparent around to file a petition
for custody?
Also, if a father's name is noton a birth certificate?
This may be two questions.
Maybe I'll start with the firstone.
How do you just obtain custodyif a parent becomes missing in
action?
There's nowhere really to befound.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Is there a default custody that goes into place, or
Is there a default custody thatgoes into place or that's a
really big job where the privatedetective trying to find that
parent for service of process isprobably the biggest job.
And it is harder to completelyhide today with the Internet
than it was when I started thiscareer in the 90s, where people
just went off.
They could just disappear, gooff the grid.
They were working a jobsomewhere in another county in
(24:14):
Florida even, and they couldjust disappear.
That is harder to do todaybecause we do require a service
of process to establish oneparent as the majority
time-sharing parent.
However, usually a parent who'shiding isn't necessarily hiding
from mom or child support.
They usually are hiding from abigger problem.
It could be criminal, it couldbe IRS, something like that.
(24:36):
And very often we can get theirvery cooperative signature to
give up their time sharing, togive up their shared parental
responsibility position, becausewe agree to just kind of leave
them in hiding where they are,and that occurs a lot.
So someone completely hiding isnearly impossible today.
(24:56):
There is a process but it's notdifficult and defaults happen.
We default cases for someone'sfailure to participate in the
process, failure to file ananswer, failure to show up for
court.
Judges just hate to do thatbecause in other areas of law
where you can quote win on atechnicality, we never in
Florida courts want to winanything for a child on a
(25:18):
technicality.
We want as many voices, as manyeyes and as many opinions as
possible to talk to the judgeabout that child before a
decision is made just based onmissing a deadline or not
getting a document in thatchild's too important to just
let something that simple decideso much their lives.
So judges want us to workreally hard to find someone to
(25:40):
get them to the courthouse.
If they can't come down therein person, get them on the phone
, get them on the Zoom, move thehearing.
Move the hearing into acorrectional facility, get them
out of a correctional facility.
Do a Zoom overseas.
If there's a deportation issuethat judges want to hear from
everyone they can.
Because it's too important todecide a child's future on
(26:00):
simple technical, proceduralfailures on one side.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Awesome.
So then, kind of that follow-up, which is again a fucking
different question altogether.
If a father's name is not on abirth certificate, let's say,
does that relinquish his abilityto seek any type of custody at
that time?
Speaker 3 (26:18):
In Florida.
No, we allow dads to comeforward at any point in minority
of the child in Florida becausewe think better late than never
is truly what judges say behindclosed doors.
Judges say better late thannever all the time they feel a
child who would be foreclosed ona technicality from ever having
a father is a bad way to set upa child for life.
(26:40):
So even if dad had no interestor was addicted or maybe was
married for the first seven,eight years of the child's life,
15 years of the child's life,our law always opens that door
to allow a dad to come forwardand try and form a relationship
with a child.
Now, it's not going to be thesame relationship or the same,
probably the legal timesharingarrangement, had he been there
(27:02):
from the beginning, but in theeyes of the child only.
We are trying to, you know,eliminate that, that permanent
abandonment feeling of a childwe want.
Well, you didn't have dad forseven years.
You have dad now.
Let's see where we can go fromhere.
Our mental health professionals, who are always watching what
(27:23):
we are doing in the familycourts, are telling us that late
is better than never in termsof long-term mental health
issues related to parentalabandonment.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
There's a few more questions here.
If you don't mind, I have onewhen it comes to custody in
general, A surprising amount ofpeople that have questions about
the meaning of certain names orlabels of custody, like joint
custody and sole custody.
What would you say is themeaning of joint custody?
And I guess, since we're on asubject, are you able to go over
(27:55):
briefly you know the differenttypes of custody options out
there.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
So Florida has a unique position which I actually
also back.
I love this part.
I don't love everything aboutFlorida, but this I love.
So in Florida we actually donot have the term custody as a
permitted term or visitation asa permitted term, because we
have timesharing.
And with timesharing, thatmeans that you don't visit your
child, you share time with yourchild and your position is no
(28:19):
different than your co-parentUnder any kind of ownership or
custodial verbiage.
We certainly have a notion thatone parent is greater than the
other and we eliminated all ofthat in 2010 in Florida.
So in Florida we havetimesharing and sometimes we
have a parent who is themajority time sharing parent and
the parent who has the balanceof the time sharing.
(28:41):
But typically, even if there'san imbalance in the amount of
time that is spent with thechild, there is still complete
balance in decision making forthe child and we consider those
the major decisions religion,major medical, educational,
major disciplines.
So timeout wouldn't be on thelist, but juvenile detention
center.
Clearly you have to tell yourco-parent that that happened
(29:02):
with your child.
So we have that balance in thedecision-making because, again,
the judges want the more peoplewho love and have an opinion as
to what should be going on withthe child, the better.
Other states have differentwords to use when they're doing
the same thing as Florida, sosome states call our equal time
sharing or 50-50 time sharingjoint custody and they call that
(29:26):
in other states.
I believe Georgia may use thatlabel.
The critical thing is is whenpeople are out there and the
internet gives us so much andit's very hard to avoid is
really make sure you're readingmaterial from your state that
uses the right language for yourstate, because the words are
vastly different from state tostate.
(29:46):
Even though if you put youreyeballs on all these households
and all these families, whatdivorced parents are probably
doing is the same in Georgia andCalifornia and New York and
Florida.
What we call it on paper isvastly different.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
And then one of the last questions I have here who
would claim a child with a, Iguess, a time sharing or 50-50
kind of joint custody?
What goes into who can kind ofclaim the child at that time tax
wise?
Speaker 3 (30:14):
It drives the judges crazy.
So shockingly, there is nostate court judge that really
can tell a parent whether theycan claim a child or not,
because only the IRS can saythat.
So basically we have to get theparents to kind of agree and
their pressure to agree.
So typically, what will happenif the parents have equal time
(30:36):
with the child?
The IRS doesn't know what to doand the IRS really wants those
parents to go odds and evens.
Alternation of the child.
If they have two children,oldest with one parent, youngest
with the other parent.
When the oldest one emancipates, rotate the younger one.
When they have three, one onerotate the youngest one.
If there's four, two and two.
(31:15):
So that's what the?
That the true claimant of achild for the dependency
exemption is the parent who hasspent the most nights with the
child of the year.
So that is why sometimes wehave time sharing arrangements
in Florida that are 51-49.
So to the child they feelequally cared for.
But in order to achieve acertain place with the IRS, we
(31:36):
do a 51-49% where we throw thechild over the line two days a
month, two days a year.
So that is frequently how it'sdone.
This is a very IRS drivendecision and I tell people you
just look back over the year andif you can prove you had the
child more than the other parentand you both claim the child,
the IRS is going to dock.
Can prove you had the childmore than the other parent and
you both claim the child, theIRS is going to dock both of you
(31:59):
and make both of you say whatthe heck is going on and then
that's your proof.
So you have your school records, you have your daycare logs,
you have, you know, a textbetween the two of you.
Hey, I'm going to claim themnext year, you can claim next
year.
What happens very often ispeople end up using that
dependency exemption as currencyfor something else and they're
just living their lives.
(32:19):
And mom has four bald tires andshe's like listen, I can't wait
till I get the refund If you'llpay my tires.
Those problems were amplifiedduring the pandemic with those
additional benefits, but it is.
(32:40):
It is really about the numberof nights.
That is what is the drivingfactor for the IRS and our state
court judges are bound to theIRS position.
Because you know supremacyclause, it's the federal
government, I guess, to decidethat Because you know supremacy
clause, it's the federalgovernment that gets to decide
that.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Gotcha.
Okay, well, just one finalquestion here, since I have
someone just with yourexperience over two, I would say
now almost what we would saythree, almost three decades of
kind of legal experience here.
What's one tip that you canshare just for that single
parent or even newly divorcedparent that you can feel would
(33:18):
kind of push them past hopefullyjust a temporary dark time that
they may be experiencing rightnow?
Any like maybe one tip that youcould share to kind of help
them out through this time?
And I know it could be a reallygeneral question, because, like
dark period, what does thatreally mean?
Speaker 3 (33:40):
But anything that you've learned, that you're like
could possibly assist them inany way.
Well, short of mental healthhelp, which is sometimes out of
reach both in terms of time andmoney, one of the things is I
really encourage my clients todo is they'll take the year that
they're in litigation and theywill think 2021 sucked, and I'm
like, whoa, let's not brush thewhole year with a dark, gray
paint of misery.
There were some bright spots in2021.
So what I encourage my clientsto do is journal, and everyone's
(34:03):
intimidated by that.
They think you have to buy thisbig spiral notebook and fill in
paragraphs and paragraphs andparagraphs.
I was like just do five starsone to five stars each day.
Do you have a five star day?
Do you have a three star day?
Do you have a one star day eachday?
Do you have a five-star day?
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Do you?
Speaker 3 (34:16):
have a three-star day , do you have a one-star day?
And then go back and look atthat journal and see you had
more five-star days than youprobably thought you did.
And things are you're havingmore and more three-star days
and then you're going to havemore and more four-star days.
And if there was something thatmade it a five-star day because
you had, you went to a partywith a neighbor or somebody at
work really complimented youknow one of your tasks or
(34:36):
something, maybe jot down why,why it was a five-star day If it
was a one-star day and you weredealing with your ex, it gives
you perspective.
It gives you perspective thatyou're not dealing with your ex
every day, that when you do dealwith your ex it isn't a
one-star every time.
Sometimes it's a three,sometimes it's a four, sometimes
it's a two.
And then the other thing that Itell people is do not think
(34:56):
that because you are separated,divorced or no longer with your
co-parent, that all the problemsyou had while you were together
and all those dynamics andthose speech patterns and
annoying sarcasms and digs,they're not going away.
You're bringing those rightover the line.
So people keep thinking thatthey're going to get away from
(35:16):
their ex and they will no longerbe annoyed with snide comments,
they will no longer have todeal with their ex being a
constant procrastinator.
Oh, you still got it all.
You still have all of that towork with with your ex when
you're a co-parent.
And that's a reality check torealize that there's pieces of
this that are not going to getbetter.
You're just going to get betterat working around it.
(35:38):
And it does get better, evenfor people who regret their
divorces, still embrace thepeace of their life and say but
I learned a lot about myself inthese three years apart.
That I can't say enough abouttaking a long look at yourself
in the mirror and doing somereal work on yourself.
And journaling is kind of thefirst step to get you there.
(35:59):
And journaling doesn't have tobe a big, arduous task, it can
just be stars in a little spiral.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
A huge thanks to Chantel Settle, founder of the
Davincy Law Firm, based out ofMiami-Dade County in Florida.
They focus on helping fatherswho are dealing with family law
matters, including paternity,child custody, visitation,
divorce and child support.
If you live in South Floridaand are experiencing any of
these issues, consider reachingout to them at Davagancycom.
(36:30):
Link will be in the descriptionof this episode.
This has been the Hangry ParentPodcast.
In the moments after Kenny's birth, kenneth Watkins,
kenny's father, experienced ajoy unlike any other, but little
did he know that the bliss ofparenthood would soon be
replaced by a battle with theAdministration for Children's
Services of New York City, alsoknown as ACS.
They're tasked with promotingthe safety and well-being of New
York City's children andfamilies by providing child
(00:22):
welfare, juvenile justice, andearly care and education
services.
In March 2017, a routinewelfare check by the ACS turned
into a life-altering event forKenneth and his newborn son.
The ACS caseworkers arrived atthe Bronx apartment and, despite
Watkins having no history ofviolence or wrongdoing, they
(00:42):
deemed Kenny to be in imminentdanger due to the complicated
history of his mother.
You see, kenneth had no historyof violence or wrongdoing.
They deemed Kenny to be inimminent danger due to the
complicated history of hismother.
You see, kenneth had no historyof violence or mental illness.
In contrast, baby Kenny'smother had a troubled history of
abusive relationships and hadnine previous children, all of
whom either ended up in fostercare or were adopted.
In the backdrop of a system withvast powers to separate
(01:04):
families, a system where one infive negligent petitions
resulted in the removal of achild from their parents, baby
Kenny's case took a unique turn,falling into the subset of
removals that occur before anycourt petition is even filed, an
emergency measure meant forcases of immediate danger.
Watkins faced a challengingscenario at the courthouse.
(01:24):
The ACS targeted only themother, treating her as the
defendant Due to her existingmarriage to someone else.
Kenneth wasn't automaticallyrecognized as baby Kenny's
father.
To have official standing inthe case, he needed to prove his
paternity while Kenny wasplaced in foster care.
After two long years, kennethultimately succeeded in
regaining custody of his son.
(01:45):
After a prolonged andemotionally taxing legal battle
with the ACS, kenneth won.
In December 2019, he wasfinally reunited with his son at
the Children's Aid Society inHarlem and embarked on the
journey to rebuild their livestogether.
Baby Kenny's mother alsocontinues to be involved in his
life, despite the history of hismother and the circumstances
that led to Baby Kenny's motheralso continues to be involved in
(02:05):
his life.
Despite the history of hismother and the circumstances
that led to Baby Kenny's removal, kenneth acknowledges the
significance of maintaining aconnection between Kenny and his
biological mother.
Parenthood can leave youcraving knowledge, hungry for
answers to the many questionsthat arise on our journey.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
A whole lot of sacrificing so that you know in
the end, hopefully it all paysoff.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
But what happens when we're left feeling angry
because we just can't find theinsights we need?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
So when I say mitigate, it's all about keeping
them grounded.
It's all about always makingsure that they understand.
This is not owed to you.
Whether it's navigating theterrible twos and toddler temper
tantrums or battling throughteenage rebellion, the hunger
for parenting techniques canquickly turn to frustration when
answers seem difficult to find.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
There has to be a trust between that 16-year-old
and that parent, and if there'sno trust, then a conversation
has to be had In the midst ofthis chaos.
It's no wonder that we oftenfind ourselves with grumbling
stomachs and cravings that justwon't quit.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
But here we embrace the idea that food is not just
sustenance but a source ofcomfort and connection in the
journey of parenthood.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Welcome to the Hangry Parent Podcast.
We satisfy not only our hungerfor delicious food, but also our
craving for parental guidance,so grab a snack, settle in and
join us as we navigate thechallenges of parenting.
One bite at a time.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
My original first job right out of law school is I
was an assistant state attorneyin the child support enforcement
division, primarilyrepresenting moms enforcing
child support in Dade Countycourts.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Meet Chantel Settle, founder of the Davocacy Law Firm
based out of Miami-Dade Countyin Florida.
So they focus on fathers whoare dealing with family law
matters like child custody,divorce, visitation, you know
things like that.
As you just heard, her previousfocus was on representing moms.
So what changed?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
So I did go to law school with kind of a social
work bent on my career goals.
I really just felt that mycareer would take me in the
family realm, working withchildren, with parents.
I was a social work major,ended up a poli-sci double major
and really felt like everythingthat made me upset, everything
that made me passionate, wasalways centered around family
policies, regulations andfunding of families that you
(04:54):
know for good or for bad.
So I did have my first job atthe State Attorney's Office
Child Support Enforcement Office, which was basically following
my mentor, Priscilla Quinones,who had the same counterpart
position in Tallahassee, and Itook her class in college.
So I was there.
I was primarily representingmoms.
About two years into the job Iwent out on my own.
(05:15):
I was in private practice forprobably about another seven
years and then I had theopportunity to take the bench as
a magistrate judge in thefamily law courtroom,
specifically the child supportenforcement courtroom.
And then I had the opportunityto take the bench as a
magistrate judge in the familylaw courtroom, specifically the
child support enforcementcourtroom, and it was there that
I kind of saw the other, themiddle side, and the more
neutral and balanced view of thestruggles of both single moms
(05:37):
and single dads and as I sat inthat job, I saw dads struggling,
dads without affordablerepresentation, dads having a
couple of months badcircumstance whether it was
illness and arrest, immigrationissues, whatever it was that
transpired.
For the course of just a couplemonths I got laid off and as
soon as I was laid off I wasprobably incorporated, getting
(06:00):
ready to start advocacy within afew months after, because the
hole was gaping.
There was a free service forsingle moms and there was
nothing even slightly affordablefor dads.
And the cases I never thoughtwere difficult.
They're not a maritime, they'renot a plane crash on a cruise
ship with six kinds ofinternational law.
(06:21):
The statutes are extremelytight.
There's not that many.
It's very clean.
It's very clear.
The need to have thousands ofdollars to hire a lawyer to get
you through that maze seemimpossible for so many dads.
So I really honed in on findinga way to represent them,
maintain a good relationshipwith the Child Support
(06:42):
Enforcement Office, trying toreally maintain a place where
you know my dad can help here.
My dad wants to see the kids,my dad wants to be involved, my
dad wants to be seen as morethan just a wallet.
And mom isn't just lackingmoney, she's also lacking time.
She's also lacking a second setof eyes on a sprained ankle.
She's also, you know, wanting asecond opinion as to whether or
(07:04):
not to get the child tested forgifted or tested for a learning
disability.
She wants and needs that help.
Dad wants to give it.
The system is not entirelyhelping their co-parenting, but
I thought I could bringsomething at a very affordable
cost that could help dads, andeven the dads that I couldn't
(07:25):
help, even the dads that wereoutside of my jurisdiction or
they could not afford me.
They are benefited by my very,very chunky website.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
So I went to our website, davocacycom, and she
was right.
There was a ton of usefulinformation under the DIY tool
shed area of the site.
So I'm looking at it right nowand I see helpful guides, advice
on how to do things that youreally don't need a lawyer for,
child support myths so manythings.
So if you're curious, I feellike you should check out her
(07:55):
website, which I posted in thedescription of this episode.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
The best example of that is the reinstatement of the
driver's license.
A lot of dads will lose theirdriver's license, get it
suspended for non-payment ofsupport and mom's going.
Wait, I need him to pick up thekids.
He does that on Wednesdays andFridays.
I need him to have his license.
Mom doesn't necessarily startthat train.
The child support office does.
We're like you know you can doit by yourself.
It's not hard.
(08:20):
They won't buy over a childsupport.
Just you know, give them a call, go down there, bring this
document, try and get some helpover there on your own.
We know that we're doingsomething to educate dads, that
we don't want them to see thatchild support office as an
impenetrable wall that theycan't work and cooperate with.
So we offer lots of resources.
(08:40):
We offer back doors to get intothat office.
You know we have links on ourwebsite that link back over to
child support.
We just introduced our passportreinstatement program.
We have instructions on how todo that for free.
People still want to hire usbecause sometimes they get
intimidated or it's a heavyemotional burden and they're
(09:02):
really happy to have us insulatethem from it.
But we just didn't want to playWizard of Oz with the mechanism
and the procedures.
So we've put them out there andI hope that when I retire that
I will have helped more dadsthat I didn't represent even
than I did from those resourcesthat are out there.
(09:23):
That really kind of help you,kind of sew your life back
together.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Can you speak on a little bit of like the mediation
process?
Because I don't think.
I think there's a perceptiontoo that it's either one way or
the other way, but I know I'veseen that you've been pointed as
a mediator in certain cases ofjust like what common ground can
we find, which I always find isvery important when it comes to
being a parent.
It's not about his way or herway.
(09:48):
It's maybe a common groundbecause, believe it or not, we
all have the same goal we wantto make sure that the child's
living a great life and thatboth parents are involved.
But is that something you stilldo as far as mediation?
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Well, I am a mediator .
I typically don't mediate caseswith advocacy.
I have been in that neutralposition with two dads, so I
have been asked to mediate maybea divorce with two dads or a
custody throwdown with two dads,and I'm also a certified
parenting coordinator and I'veworked with two dads.
But wearing the advocacy labelon a mom versus dad situation, I
(10:22):
don't think that's going to sitwell with mom.
Moms do find their way to ourwebsite and we have a little, a
little place for them that sayswe can talk to you, but you
probably don't want us.
And here's a phone number forthe Florida Bar and here's a
number for the child supportoffice in case you wandered here
on accident.
We don't want to make it harderfor them to get the help they
need, but we're really dadoriented.
(10:43):
Having said that, I am amediator because I hugely
believe in mediation and I don'tbelieve mediation is just that
day, that appointment, thatenvironment.
I think you should have amediation mindset on at all
times.
As an attorney and as a litigant, I think moms and dads must
always keep one eye on creative,calm, compromising solutions,
(11:03):
so that the child who watchesthe fray between them and
there's the child who never seesthat argument.
They're at school, they have noidea what's being texted back
and forth, but they still feelit.
They still got a stressed,tired, grumpy parent who dealt
with the other co-parent at somepoint in the day and the child
feels that exhaustion, thatfrustration.
(11:24):
So we don't just, you know,encourage people to keep it out
of the actual eyes and ears ofthe child, just keep it out of
your life altogether is going tobe better for your child.
So we want a compromising, youknow, middle ground, respectful
mindset, always.
We we try on our website todispel a lot of myths.
(11:47):
A lot of people think that momis doing this.
It's her idea to do X, y and Z,sometimes for public benefits,
for working with the childsupport office.
She's forced.
We've made a really, reallytried hard to get dads educated
about that so that they can stoppointing a finger and being
angry that the mom individuallydid this to them for some
(12:08):
vindictive purpose.
She usually did not.
It's rare that she did.
I can't.
I won't say that there's notvindictiveness and revenge.
I'm just saying that youshouldn't be encouraged to go
there first, see if there'ssomething else going on, and we
want that to be our attitude,our mindset, because we are in a
case.
Sometimes they drag, but we arein a case for a limited period
(12:31):
of time and after we're done andafter the other lawyer is done
and the judge is gone, thesepeople have to still co-parent
together, and it's not till 18.
It's for always.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
For always.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
yes, For always.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
yes, I like that.
I stumbled upon some morethings that you are a part of
here, and that was just prenupshere.
But what can you talk about?
Just prenups?
How does that intertwine withadvocacy at all?
And what can you talk about asfar as, like, the importance of
having a prenup and apostnuptial agreement?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Thanks.
So advocacy is my litigationcompany and advocacy was born 13
years ago.
I am 52 years old, so with aneye towards my retirement, I
started just prenups, whichactually was in development in
my mind, and I bought the domainand did that kind of thing.
At the same time that Ideveloped advocacy, I felt that
(13:24):
my community kind of was in acrisis.
Advocacy was a serious need inthe community.
Getting dads some help, gettingsome resources out to dads, was
really really important.
And at the same time we werealso at advocacy involved with
other companies andorganizations that were
promoting dads in different ways.
And at the same time we werealso at Davide to see involved
with other companies andorganizations that were
promoting dads in different ways.
And so there was kind of amovement and the small community
(13:46):
of Miami was telling me dadswere in crisis and then the
bigger community of the UnitedStates was telling me that dads
are poorly regarded.
So I wanted to really beinvolved in the change of that
conversation and being a womanand a mom was really important
for the words to come from me.
Just prenups is kind of myretirement baby.
It is born of my desire tomediate prenups and do something
(14:10):
different with prenups.
Prenups are no longer that AnnaNicole Smith situation.
Most prenups today are a veryunified couple who really fear
the legal system more than theyfear each other.
They know that their financesand their plans, their goals,
can be kind of taken hostage bytheir respective attorneys and
(14:31):
by their divorce judge and theycan be paralyzed with regard to
business decisions, investments,relocations, all those things.
So with just prenups I actuallywanted to help cure the problem
I was making money from creating.
So I thought that if I came inwith a new kind of prenup that I
(14:54):
could bring something reallynovel to the table.
So my prenup is a littledifferent.
It has all the engine and thewheels, what a separation
happens, what a separation is,who moves out all those things.
And then, if that separationperiod doesn't result in
reconciliation, they can callfor marriage.
Relationship coaching as wellas marriage counseling are built
(15:15):
into my prenups.
Some cool down period a littlebit of a 30 days, 90 days,
everyone think before we jump,thing that I've built into my
preups.
Some cool down period, a littlebit of a 30 days, 90 days,
everyone think before we jumpthing that I've built into my
prenups because Florida,strangely, is one of five states
that doesn't recognizeseparation.
You're either married or you'refiled which makes people move
way, way faster than they'reemotionally ready.
(15:36):
So they have to file to stoptheir spouse's debts from going
to them.
They have to file to stop sothat their spouse's business
decisions they're not beholdento.
So with that knee jerk, we geta very fast decision on how to
do this.
Who's your lawyer?
What's the strategy?
Is there a way out?
(15:58):
Is there a reconciliation?
Is this marriage really over?
And I feel that Florida, justbasically, you know the way our
law is written they just want toset the world afire with this
rush to get a lawyer.
So I thought the prenups couldbe written in a way that would
get a couple who are in lovetrusting each other now to make
(16:19):
decisions for when they don't.
And I ask them I think let'sset your boundaries On the worst
thing you can imagine, and thenwe can be more generous from
there and the worst thing youcan imagine Is different for
every person, but from there,what are your boundaries?
And then what does the otherpartner say?
Their response would be so theyactually are in mediation
(16:42):
sessions with me as a mediator,to create their own agreement
that I draft for them.
But it is their agreement, andso I wanted to bring something
better there too.
Florida doesn't do a great jobwith this no separation thing.
It really makes people rush,and the data that we're getting
from the mental health communityis that many divorces are
(17:02):
regretted, maybe not six monthsout, but a year out, five years
out.
People are asked do you regretyour divorce?
And a lot of people say, yeah,I wish I was still with my ex,
because I've not felt as goodabout my life myself, my future,
as I did with my ex.
And they also say, no, I'mstill glad I'm divorced, but I
wish I hadn't gone about it theway it happened.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
And so I really would like for fewer people to feel
that way after their divorce andmaybe just prenups can help
them with a slower, calmerprocess with lots of decisions
made ahead of time it's a littledifferent there, so but that,
no, I think that's, that'sawesome and it comes from a good
place and I think that's, youknow, part of the reason why I
(17:48):
wanted to talk to you.
It's not just to try to break,kind of this again the
stereotypes, that becauseprenups against stereotypes.
Oh, you think this is not goingto work.
I was like, no, it's not,that's not going to work, I just
want to.
There's oh, I like to look atplan a, plan B, plan C, always
nuts, you know, to a detrimentof mine sometimes.
(18:08):
But but I just always was goingto be prepared.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Yeah, yeah, it's exactly that.
The prenup is written in a planA, we call for four, six, eight
weeks of marriage counseling.
Plan B we move out and we moveout for 90 days and we go our
separate ways 30, 60, 90,whatever 90 days with a mediated
plan for moving the childrenaround, if there are any.
(18:30):
And then plan C we couldn'tmake it work.
Here's the divorce.
Here's what it looks like.
Here's how we determine income.
Here's how we determine.
You know those things.
The prenup calls for mediationto be done instead of court
first.
So there's lots of things inthere that it is exactly what
you said A plan A, a plan B andsadly, the worst plan is the
(18:52):
plan C.
At least make it calmer, lessexpensive.
If you can't cure the marriage,at least don't go broke on the
process out the door.
That's never good for anybody.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
No, not at all.
Okay.
So then I have a segment hereI'm calling ALA, which is ask a
lawyer anything.
It's just some questions that Igathered from others and I just
wanted to throw you away andsee if you can kind of help them
out here.
Okay, sure, I'm speaking fromFlorida only, but yes, and I
just wanted to throw you awayand see if you can kind of help
them out here.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
OK, sure, so I'm from Florida only, but yes, yes,
very important.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Each state is a little different here, right?
So first question I have in themeantime is it true that if a
child 14 or older, a child hasthe right to choose a custodial
parent, depending on the state?
And I was looking into this alittle further myself and I saw
that Florida is not a state thatdoes not have the ability for a
child to choose in a way, butyou can again educate me on that
(19:47):
because you're more of theexpert than I am.
But basically the questionwould be what goes into a
decision where parents don'tagree and a judge would factor
the child's opinion into theequation for states that do
support the right to choose?
Speaker 3 (20:01):
child's opinion into the equation for states that do
support the right to choose.
Well, I think all states havethe wishes of the child as a
consideration.
The problem is a mechanical onehow does the judge hear from
the child?
So that conversation betweenthe child and the judge is
usually blocked by protocol.
No Florida judge is going tojust let a child come on by and
(20:21):
have a conversation.
Usually that is an in-cameraand recorded conversation,
in-camera being alone, with thejudge recorded.
And it is very rare that ajudge will do it without some
kind of counselor, guardiantherapist saying this child can
handle that kind of pressure.
So to ask a child who they wantto live with is loaded with how
(20:46):
each parent may have beeninfluencing that child and we
want to make sure that thosetypes of influences carrots and
sticks are not involved in thatchild's process to arrive at
that place.
Sometimes when we send in thatprofessional to garner the
position of the child, we getvery surprising information.
(21:09):
I represented a dad many yearsago who had a heck of a time
with his daughter who had becomea teenager and she would cry
and go on and on that.
She didn't want to go to herfather's house and he was
devastated.
He didn't know what was goingon.
And it turns out that she hadreally rough time with her
menstrual cycle and didn't wantto discuss it with dad and only
(21:30):
felt comfortable with mom whenthat was happening.
And I asked him is she alwaysrefusing to go to your house?
And he said no, it's weird.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
He hadn't really noticed thepattern, but that's what was
going on.
Something as simple asmenstruation was very resolvable
.
Dad got more educated and momand dad agreed that on those
weekends she felt morecomfortable at mom's house.
(21:52):
She stayed at mom's.
We've had children, say I've hada child that wanted to stay at
one house more than the otherbecause the ride to school, the
carpool from dad's house, wasmore fun than the carpool from
mom's house.
Well, that doesn't haveanything to do with either
parent.
So we look at those things welove to hear when a child is
motivated by other things otherthan loving one parent more than
(22:15):
the other.
They tend to not.
They just, in different phasesof their lives, need one parent
more than the other or are veryresistant to one parent more
than the other.
I have lots and lots and lots ofcases where I've had teenage
boys suddenly want to go livewith dad and devastated moms who
are like this is the thanks Iget.
I've been doing the heavier,the heavier load of this.
(22:37):
You know, in the traditionalyou know, time sharing model, we
had a mom with a greaterpercentage of time and now her
14 year old wants to go livewith dad and she's saying what
the heck is this?
And she is possibly notunderstanding the dynamic of
that boy's puberty affecting him.
What he's open about with momand he feels more open with dad
(22:58):
sometimes at that point.
So there's a lot of externalthings that go on with children.
Teen years are harder than ever.
So I actually back Florida'sposition of not necessarily
letting a child choose butletting their choice be
influential in a judge'sdecision.
As long as we understand howthat process is occurring for
the child, is it a well thoughtout process?
(23:20):
And sometimes it's things thatare very silly to you and I what
friends are in the carpool, butit's important to them.
We always have to forget thatthings seem really different
when you're that age than whenyou're our age.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
OK.
So next question how do youobtain custody if a parent
becomes MIA?
Do you need to have the otherparent around to file a petition
for custody?
Also, if a father's name is noton a birth certificate?
This may be two questions.
Maybe I'll start with the firstone.
How do you just obtain custodyif a parent becomes missing in
action?
There's nowhere really to befound.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Is there a default custody that goes into place, or
Is there a default custody thatgoes into place or that's a
really big job where the privatedetective trying to find that
parent for service of process isprobably the biggest job.
And it is harder to completelyhide today with the Internet
than it was when I started thiscareer in the 90s, where people
just went off.
They could just disappear, gooff the grid.
They were working a jobsomewhere in another county in
(24:14):
Florida even, and they couldjust disappear.
That is harder to do todaybecause we do require a service
of process to establish oneparent as the majority
time-sharing parent.
However, usually a parent who'shiding isn't necessarily hiding
from mom or child support.
They usually are hiding from abigger problem.
It could be criminal, it couldbe IRS, something like that.
(24:36):
And very often we can get theirvery cooperative signature to
give up their time sharing, togive up their shared parental
responsibility position, becausewe agree to just kind of leave
them in hiding where they are,and that occurs a lot.
So someone completely hiding isnearly impossible today.
(24:56):
There is a process but it's notdifficult and defaults happen.
We default cases for someone'sfailure to participate in the
process, failure to file ananswer, failure to show up for
court.
Judges just hate to do thatbecause in other areas of law
where you can quote win on atechnicality, we never in
Florida courts want to winanything for a child on a
(25:18):
technicality.
We want as many voices, as manyeyes and as many opinions as
possible to talk to the judgeabout that child before a
decision is made just based onmissing a deadline or not
getting a document in thatchild's too important to just
let something that simple decideso much their lives.
So judges want us to workreally hard to find someone to
(25:40):
get them to the courthouse.
If they can't come down therein person, get them on the phone
, get them on the Zoom, move thehearing.
Move the hearing into acorrectional facility, get them
out of a correctional facility.
Do a Zoom overseas.
If there's a deportation issuethat judges want to hear from
everyone they can.
Because it's too important todecide a child's future on
(26:00):
simple technical, proceduralfailures on one side.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Awesome.
So then, kind of that follow-up, which is again a fucking
different question altogether.
If a father's name is not on abirth certificate, let's say,
does that relinquish his abilityto seek any type of custody at
that time?
Speaker 3 (26:18):
In Florida.
No, we allow dads to comeforward at any point in minority
of the child in Florida becausewe think better late than never
is truly what judges say behindclosed doors.
Judges say better late thannever all the time they feel a
child who would be foreclosed ona technicality from ever having
a father is a bad way to set upa child for life.
(26:40):
So even if dad had no interestor was addicted or maybe was
married for the first seven,eight years of the child's life,
15 years of the child's life,our law always opens that door
to allow a dad to come forwardand try and form a relationship
with a child.
Now, it's not going to be thesame relationship or the same,
probably the legal timesharingarrangement, had he been there
(27:02):
from the beginning, but in theeyes of the child only.
We are trying to, you know,eliminate that, that permanent
abandonment feeling of a childwe want.
Well, you didn't have dad forseven years.
You have dad now.
Let's see where we can go fromhere.
Our mental health professionals, who are always watching what
(27:23):
we are doing in the familycourts, are telling us that late
is better than never in termsof long-term mental health
issues related to parentalabandonment.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
There's a few more questions here.
If you don't mind, I have onewhen it comes to custody in
general, A surprising amount ofpeople that have questions about
the meaning of certain names orlabels of custody, like joint
custody and sole custody.
What would you say is themeaning of joint custody?
And I guess, since we're on asubject, are you able to go over
(27:55):
briefly you know the differenttypes of custody options out
there.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
So Florida has a unique position which I actually
also back.
I love this part.
I don't love everything aboutFlorida, but this I love.
So in Florida we actually donot have the term custody as a
permitted term or visitation asa permitted term, because we
have timesharing.
And with timesharing, thatmeans that you don't visit your
child, you share time with yourchild and your position is no
(28:19):
different than your co-parentUnder any kind of ownership or
custodial verbiage.
We certainly have a notion thatone parent is greater than the
other and we eliminated all ofthat in 2010 in Florida.
So in Florida we havetimesharing and sometimes we
have a parent who is themajority time sharing parent and
the parent who has the balanceof the time sharing.
(28:41):
But typically, even if there'san imbalance in the amount of
time that is spent with thechild, there is still complete
balance in decision making forthe child and we consider those
the major decisions religion,major medical, educational,
major disciplines.
So timeout wouldn't be on thelist, but juvenile detention
center.
Clearly you have to tell yourco-parent that that happened
(29:02):
with your child.
So we have that balance in thedecision-making because, again,
the judges want the more peoplewho love and have an opinion as
to what should be going on withthe child, the better.
Other states have differentwords to use when they're doing
the same thing as Florida, sosome states call our equal time
sharing or 50-50 time sharingjoint custody and they call that
(29:26):
in other states.
I believe Georgia may use thatlabel.
The critical thing is is whenpeople are out there and the
internet gives us so much andit's very hard to avoid is
really make sure you're readingmaterial from your state that
uses the right language for yourstate, because the words are
vastly different from state tostate.
(29:46):
Even though if you put youreyeballs on all these households
and all these families, whatdivorced parents are probably
doing is the same in Georgia andCalifornia and New York and
Florida.
What we call it on paper isvastly different.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
And then one of the last questions I have here who
would claim a child with a, Iguess, a time sharing or 50-50
kind of joint custody?
What goes into who can kind ofclaim the child at that time tax
wise?
Speaker 3 (30:14):
It drives the judges crazy.
So shockingly, there is nostate court judge that really
can tell a parent whether theycan claim a child or not,
because only the IRS can saythat.
So basically we have to get theparents to kind of agree and
their pressure to agree.
So typically, what will happenif the parents have equal time
(30:36):
with the child?
The IRS doesn't know what to doand the IRS really wants those
parents to go odds and evens.
Alternation of the child.
If they have two children,oldest with one parent, youngest
with the other parent.
When the oldest one emancipates, rotate the younger one.
When they have three, one onerotate the youngest one.
If there's four, two and two.
(31:15):
So that's what the?
That the true claimant of achild for the dependency
exemption is the parent who hasspent the most nights with the
child of the year.
So that is why sometimes wehave time sharing arrangements
in Florida that are 51-49.
So to the child they feelequally cared for.
But in order to achieve acertain place with the IRS, we
(31:36):
do a 51-49% where we throw thechild over the line two days a
month, two days a year.
So that is frequently how it'sdone.
This is a very IRS drivendecision and I tell people you
just look back over the year andif you can prove you had the
child more than the other parentand you both claim the child,
the IRS is going to dock.
Can prove you had the childmore than the other parent and
you both claim the child, theIRS is going to dock both of you
(31:59):
and make both of you say whatthe heck is going on and then
that's your proof.
So you have your school records, you have your daycare logs,
you have, you know, a textbetween the two of you.
Hey, I'm going to claim themnext year, you can claim next
year.
What happens very often ispeople end up using that
dependency exemption as currencyfor something else and they're
just living their lives.
(32:19):
And mom has four bald tires andshe's like listen, I can't wait
till I get the refund If you'llpay my tires.
Those problems were amplifiedduring the pandemic with those
additional benefits, but it is.
(32:40):
It is really about the numberof nights.
That is what is the drivingfactor for the IRS and our state
court judges are bound to theIRS position.
Because you know supremacyclause, it's the federal
government, I guess, to decidethat Because you know supremacy
clause, it's the federalgovernment that gets to decide
that.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Gotcha.
Okay, well, just one finalquestion here, since I have
someone just with yourexperience over two, I would say
now almost what we would saythree, almost three decades of
kind of legal experience here.
What's one tip that you canshare just for that single
parent or even newly divorcedparent that you can feel would
(33:18):
kind of push them past hopefullyjust a temporary dark time that
they may be experiencing rightnow?
Any like maybe one tip that youcould share to kind of help
them out through this time?
And I know it could be a reallygeneral question, because, like
dark period, what does thatreally mean?
Speaker 3 (33:40):
But anything that you've learned, that you're like
could possibly assist them inany way.
Well, short of mental healthhelp, which is sometimes out of
reach both in terms of time andmoney, one of the things is I
really encourage my clients todo is they'll take the year that
they're in litigation and theywill think 2021 sucked, and I'm
like, whoa, let's not brush thewhole year with a dark, gray
paint of misery.
There were some bright spots in2021.
So what I encourage my clientsto do is journal, and everyone's
(34:03):
intimidated by that.
They think you have to buy thisbig spiral notebook and fill in
paragraphs and paragraphs andparagraphs.
I was like just do five starsone to five stars each day.
Do you have a five star day?
Do you have a three star day?
Do you have a one star day eachday?
Do you have a five-star day?
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Do you?
Speaker 3 (34:16):
have a three-star day , do you have a one-star day?
And then go back and look atthat journal and see you had
more five-star days than youprobably thought you did.
And things are you're havingmore and more three-star days
and then you're going to havemore and more four-star days.
And if there was something thatmade it a five-star day because
you had, you went to a partywith a neighbor or somebody at
work really complimented youknow one of your tasks or
(34:36):
something, maybe jot down why,why it was a five-star day If it
was a one-star day and you weredealing with your ex, it gives
you perspective.
It gives you perspective thatyou're not dealing with your ex
every day, that when you do dealwith your ex it isn't a
one-star every time.
Sometimes it's a three,sometimes it's a four, sometimes
it's a two.
And then the other thing that Itell people is do not think
(34:56):
that because you are separated,divorced or no longer with your
co-parent, that all the problemsyou had while you were together
and all those dynamics andthose speech patterns and
annoying sarcasms and digs,they're not going away.
You're bringing those rightover the line.
So people keep thinking thatthey're going to get away from
(35:16):
their ex and they will no longerbe annoyed with snide comments,
they will no longer have todeal with their ex being a
constant procrastinator.
Oh, you still got it all.
You still have all of that towork with with your ex when
you're a co-parent.
And that's a reality check torealize that there's pieces of
this that are not going to getbetter.
You're just going to get betterat working around it.
(35:38):
And it does get better, evenfor people who regret their
divorces, still embrace thepeace of their life and say but
I learned a lot about myself inthese three years apart.
That I can't say enough abouttaking a long look at yourself
in the mirror and doing somereal work on yourself.
And journaling is kind of thefirst step to get you there.
(35:59):
And journaling doesn't have tobe a big, arduous task, it can
just be stars in a little spiral.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
A huge thanks to Chantel Settle, founder of the
Davincy Law Firm, based out ofMiami-Dade County in Florida.
They focus on helping fatherswho are dealing with family law
matters, including paternity,child custody, visitation,
divorce and child support.
If you live in South Floridaand are experiencing any of
these issues, consider reachingout to them at Davagancycom.
(36:30):
Link will be in the descriptionof this episode.
This has been the Hangry ParentPodcast.
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