July 11, 2022 • 30 mins
Nobel Peace Prize winners feel burnout too. Malala Yousafzai - who survived an assassination attempted by the Taliban - works tirelessly so that more women and girls can access education. But she often feels guilty at taking time off, but knows she must to avoid burnout.
She shares her tips with Dr Laurie Santos on how to achieve work/life balance; how to deal with disappointment; and how to build bridges with people we disagree with.
(Recorded live at Yale's Silliman College.)
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. Inspirational is a ward that gets thrown around a lot,
but it's hard to think of a better way to
describe the woman you'll hear in this episode. Malala Yushavsai
grew up in a remote part of Pakistan, then ruled
by the Violet militants of the Taliban. Life for women
(00:36):
under this oppressive regime was incredibly hard, and Malala, though
just a child, spoke openly about the restrictions placed on
her and her peers and how it had become hard
just to attend school. And then one day, on a
bus ride home from an exam, two Taliban gunmen approached
her vehicle. Who is Malala, they asked. The next thing
(00:56):
Malala remembers is waking up in the hospital. She had
survived a gunshot wound to the head, but instead of wavering,
she began championing harder and louder for equality in girls
education worldwide, and at the age of seventeen, she became
the youngest person ever to receive the Nobel Peace Prize. Recently,
I was lucky enough to host a live event with
(01:18):
Malala at my residential college at Yale, and I thought
all my happiness lab listeners might like to hear not
only her inspirational story, but also to listen to a
remarkable woman like Malala talking about burnout, self criticism, guilt,
family frictions, and even relaxing with Ted Lasso. Everyone at Yale,
everyone around the world who's joining us, please join me
(01:40):
and welcoming Malala. So settle in to hear some happiness
lessons from Malala with me. Doctor Laurie Santo's on the
Happiness Lab. I'm imagining that talking to a professor like
this over zoo when a like clunky internet connection must
take you back to like when you switch to remote
(02:00):
university back at Oxford in twenty twenty. I'm just curious
that time was so difficult for my students at Yale,
Like what was it like for you and kind of
how did you handle it? This was a tough time
for students all around the world. When the pandemic hit,
no one was prepared for how it would impact their studies.
I took my exam from home, I graduated from home,
(02:21):
and then again I was stuck at home. I was
so excited for life after university. I was just waiting
for that moment when I would be able to move
out and just explore what was out there. It was
quite difficult because you realize that it's not just you,
it's like it's everybody. It's all of us, and unfortunately
some of us were impacted more than others because of
(02:43):
where they come from in which geographies they were based.
I do advocacy for girls education and I dream of
a world where we see the number of girls who
are out of school reduced with time. But when COVID
hit at Manana Fund, we did a research which showed
that twenty million more girls are at risk of dropping
out because they're stuck at home. They're more likely to
(03:05):
be forced into marriages. They also will be helping their
family financially. And I realize that, you know, progress is
not linear as you are promised or as you are told.
There are these setbacks that are these external shocks that
can damage the work that's been done for the past
many many decades. COVID with such a tough time, but
I mean, the amazing thing about your work is you're
(03:27):
constantly turning your attention to these awful, awful situations that
face women's education and that face refugees. And one of
the things I wanted to talk about in our conversation today,
is how you get to keep doing such important work,
you know, how you kind of take care of yourself,
like in the context of kind of dealing with so
much suffering. The thing that I admire most about you,
and I know so many people admire most about you,
which is your courage. You know, it feels like you're
(03:49):
constantly diving in and doing really hard things. And I'm
curious what you do to cultivate that, Like, are there
strategies that you use to like psyche yourself up to
do all the kinds of things that intimidate you. You You know,
what advice would you give for you budding activists to
think about how they can gain some courage activism is,
you know, it's sort of my day to day job.
And I do not limit activism do just appearing on
(04:10):
stage or doing a TV interview or visiting a refugee camp.
I think when you are an activist, you have to
enshow that you are reflecting the message in your own
actions as well and how you live your life. So
if I am promoting forgiveness and kindness, and if I'm
bringing attention to justice and fairness, and I believe that,
(04:32):
you know, we should be living in a society where
everyone is treated fairly, regardless of their gender and their background.
Then I need to question myself, you know, is that
reflecting from the way I live my life or not.
You know, sometimes you have to make tough choices, you
have to ask tough questions, and it does require a
lot of strength to do that. But in my own
personal journey, you know, I know what it is like
(04:54):
to be told not to go to school, and I
know what it is like to be deprived of education.
It was in two thousand and eight and nine when
the Taliban gained a lot of influence in Swat Valley
in the north of Pakistan. The band Gil's Education band
women from going to markets. They were actually against the
presence of women in public and they did not see
(05:16):
a society where women could practice equal rights as men.
So I was part of that. I wanted the world
to speak out for me. I wanted someone to raise
their voice for me. And in this moment, when I
look at the fact that there are one hundred and
twenty seven million girls out of school, that right now
in Afghanistan, girls are banned from secondary education, that refugee
(05:37):
crisis is worsening, and more and more children are impacted
by wars and conflicts, and more and more children are
not receiving safe, in quality education that they deserved. So
I look back and I think about that Malala who
wanted the world to speak out. So I feel a
sense of responsibility because I wish more people had spoken
out for me, and I know that there are girls
(05:58):
who want us to speak out for them. This work
of sort of speaking out is so important, right, both
doing it yourself and kind of being this ripple effects
so you can cause other people to speak. It's so critical,
but it also can be so exhausting, like kind of
holding the crises of the world so close, you know,
is tough. And so I'm wondering, especially being so young
when you started this, like you know, how you're able
(06:20):
to keep doing this work that requires so much resiliency?
You know, have you ever gotten close to burnout? Are
there things you do to protect yourself from burnout? And
doing this work? The burnout is there in different phases.
It's like, you know, you focus on one cause and
one mission and you put so much energy into it
and then you achieve nothing. So I do advocacy for
(06:41):
financing for education, because there's a huge gap in financing
for education and reaching up to two hundred billion dollars.
So if it keeps expanding and we are not investing
enough into education, the crisis worsens. And we know it
has that ripple effect as well. Our health, our economies,
general equality, all of these things are impacted when we
(07:01):
don't invest in the education of girls, in the quality
education of all of our children. So, you know, these
things concern me. And when I do add the case
and I push for like you know, these G seven
leaders or D twenty countries and other policymakers, and then
sometimes they say a few nice words, and when you
look at the policy, they have not made any financial commitment.
(07:21):
They are not actually making the right policies that can
in show that we see general equality and we see
enough investment in girls education. So it does frustrate you.
So there is that burnout in that sense that you
feel like, could I have done a bit more? Was
it a bit optimistic of me that I even considered
it to be impactful? But then in those times I
(07:43):
remind myself of the positives and of the success that
we have made for instance, seeing the progress that has
been made in terms of focusing on this higher secondary
education of girls. The focus so far had been on
primary education, but now they have pushed for complete twelve
years of education. And I know that, you know, we
(08:04):
need to give complete education to every child so that
they can make choices for themselves for their future. So
you know that has been a success. So there is
a bit of hope and optimism in those times. You
have to remind yourself that if you are exhausted, you
are not going to be productive anyway, and you are
not going to be able to help in your activism
(08:24):
and your mission as much as you would want to be.
So you need to recharge yourself. And so I'm wondering
how you do that. I know, you know my students
at Yale sometimes if they feel kind of stressed and
anxious when they take time off. I feel like that
must be even worse if you're an activist, like you're
doing such amazing work. I'm curious, you know, how do
you get yourself to take a break or what is
moology for fun? I guess it's a question. Yeah, I
(08:46):
think the guilty is always there when you take a
break and For me personally, it is spending time with
my friends, even if it's you know, one video chat
even that health sore, spending time with my partner and
just you know, going for a nice dinner or just
taking a bit of time off. I love to play
badminton and cricket as well. Yeah, just just spending time
(09:08):
with your family can really help you. And you know,
watch a comedy show, watch ted Lasso, or watch you know,
Inventing an Now or something like that, and it sort
of distinctive for a moment, and then you are back
into your mission with a fresh mind and with a
new perspective, and it really helps you to be more
productive and more efficient in your work. That's awesome. I
(09:30):
love to hear that you prioritize taking rest and having
fun and just like you know, watching ted Lasso, amazing show.
I'm also curious about a different kind of stressor that
you face that's maybe different than some of my Yale students,
which is that, like, you know, you're this public figure, right,
you know, I know, I know so many of my
Yale students, especially my seniors now, are facing this hard
choice of like what should they do after college and
sort of thinking about next steps. But you know, with
(09:52):
a huge public platform like yours, I'm guessing the consequences
of your choices must feel even bigger, like just just
must feel like there's so many important things at stake,
and so you know, having just graduated from Oxford and
things like, you know, how you handle this, like how
do you make such big decisions? And do you grapple
with the same kind of indecision that I see with
my people too? Yes, I think, you know, young people
(10:13):
in this time are facing a lot of pressure. They
feel the urgency to take action, and there are a
lot of issues that concern us, and we know that
if we don't take action sooner, these issues will get worse,
and climate change is one example of that. I think
with this generation, we do dream of a better, fairer, kinder,
more peaceful world, and it still really frustrates us to
(10:38):
imagine that we still exist in a world where wars
are happening, where people are not actually understanding how you know,
for some economic gains we put the lives of people
at risk, and that we are still discriminating against people
based on their gender, based on their skin color, based
on their background, on their income level. So you know,
(10:59):
but I'm really happy to see that young people are
concerned about these issues and that they care and that
they come out and they take action. But I think
at the same time really important for young people to
prioritize their own learning, their own expertise as well, because
you know, with time, you realize that you also deserve
(11:20):
to be in those positions of power. You also deserve
to be in politics. You know, you need to be
the CEOs of the future. You need to be the
prime ministers and presidents of the future. You need to
take the roles of ministries as well, and you are
in the best place to make those decisions that can
actually help people. So I do encourage young people to
(11:41):
take a role in in these organizations in politics as well,
build your expertise, continue your education, learn from other people.
But in future, like do you imagine yourselves as the
decision makers and then you can make those decisions for
the future. That's awesome. We had one question from my
soul miss student Akio, who asks about what it's like
(12:02):
to be a pop culture I can't. I know your
name was like featured in movies and like your people
talk about you on TV shows and stuff. And so
I think Aki is just wondering, like, what's that? Like?
Is it just weird? Like do you enjoy it? I
will be honest that I caught up with the pop
culture stuff pretty late, but the pandemic really brought me
(12:23):
to watch TV shows and also like university time as well,
I started binge watching like Big Bank Period and other shows.
It's a big source of procrastination. I have seen like
my name being mentioned in a few shows, especially I
think in Succession. I was just watching it like randomly,
and then they mentioned my name, and I'm like, that's
pretty awkward. I don't know how to react to that,
(12:46):
but sometimes, you know, it's fun to see that. It's
a bit of a surprise, but it's fun to see
that about. What really makes me happy is the support
that I received from people from all around the world.
They are supporting my organization, Malana Fund, through which we
support an advocate for girls education. They are supporting us
through following like a newsletter. They're following my personal journey,
(13:09):
my personal opinions and thoughts through my bulletin platform Podium.
So I'm really happy to see that, and I really
appreciate the support that people have given to me. That's amazing.
And so another one of our community member is Victor
asks during a recent keynote education summit, you said it's
easier to feel distant from current crises around the world,
like those affecting refugees, and so Victor's asking, what can
(13:31):
we do to shake ourselves from this stupor, especially when
the media might not be helping us. How can we
reframe things to become more effective supporters because there's so
many people who need our help, who are just people
just like us, but sometimes things can feel so far away.
Any ideas for how we can feel closer and really
take more action, That's a great question. There are definitely
(13:51):
ways in which you can support refugees and you can
bring attention to other causes that you believe in. You know,
one of our biggest power is voting and then those
who we vote, holding them accountable, and it's writing to them,
it's putting more pressure on them and ask them that,
you know, what are they doing for refugees for other issues?
(14:13):
And you know, young people writing a letter to their
their local politicians and also participating in in those local
organizations and also in the international organizations like supporting their
causes raising awareness. So I think you know, those local
led activism can be really powerful and at Malanafen, like
(14:33):
the way we do projects is we support local activists
in ten countries including Pakistan, India, Nigeria, Brazil, Ethiopia. And
these are activists who are figuring out out what are
the barriers that prevent girls from schools And it could
be like lack a female teachers, or it could be sanitation,
(14:56):
it could be infrastructure, or it could be the lack
of other facilities. And when you address those specific issues,
you can help many more girls to enrol into schools.
And sometimes the policy changes that you need to make
that can involve more girls into schools. In Nigeria, for instance,
our education activists in the state of Kaduna pastor legislation
(15:16):
that helped them to reduce the hidden fees that students
had to face in schools from like covering uniform or
other schools stationary books, et cetera. That impacted girls more
because families were less likely to cover these extra costs
for their girls. And even in this COVID time, they
were able to do classes through radios, through televisions, through
(15:37):
mobile aaps to ensure that even if girls can't be
in school, they can still learn from home, so that
these girls do not miss out on their education. So
I think it's supporting these local activists, supporting local organizations.
It can really help us to bring more impact and
that positive change in our communities and in communities around
(15:59):
the world. When we come back from the break, Malala
will share more of her tips on advocating for change
and how you can begin to win over people who
are deeply opposed to equality justice, even if they happened
to be in your very own family. The Happiness Lab.
We'll be right back. Even though we're doing this as
(16:26):
a Silliman College t at Yale, because we're on Facebook Live,
we're kind of all over the world. And someone in
our Silliman community shared this with their friends community, which
got to a fifth grade classroom in Tucson, Arizona. So
I want to share one of their questions, which is
coming from a fifth grade student who's, you know, thinking
about what life must have been like for you when
you were kind of being treated differently just because you
(16:46):
were a woman. And so the question is, how did
you feel when men in Pakistan thought less of you?
Simply because you were a girl trying to get education.
How has that shaped you and how do you see
this shaping even women today who have to fight for
education and girls today who have to fight for an education.
I would share my personal story first, So when I
was growing up, there weren't these gender stage your lives
(17:07):
that were influencing my life ready. And I was not
the only woman or girl whose life was impacted. Women
overall are impacted by these gender stereotypes. They are called lesser,
they're told that they can't be leaders, they can't be activists,
that they can't be better decision makers. And I was
really lucky that my father believed in in me. He
(17:30):
just believed in this basic idea that men and women
are all equal and why should they be discriminated based
on their gender. And I always tell people that I
started speaking out and I was able to raise my voice.
But this could have been any other girl in Swath Valley.
But different in my story is that my father did
not stop me. There were so many other manalas out
(17:53):
there who could have raised their voices and who wanted to,
and who even had started, but their brothers, their fathers,
their male family members, stopped them from speaking out. So
sometimes it's you know, it's the small step of not
stopping women as my father, yourselves, don't don't click women's wings.
Allow women to go forward. It sometimes, you know, means
(18:15):
they're giving them the space, giving them the room to
step forward. Don't stand in their way. Be their allies,
be their supporters. You know, I was lucky that my
father and my brothers, and there are other men right
now who are you know, becoming advocates for women's rights.
And when they see women in their own community become leaders,
become um activists, it really gives them, you know, that
(18:37):
role model. Yes, it is possible for women to be leaders,
to be in sports, and to be in science and
to be inventors. You know, I know that this is
not a problem, you know just in one part of Pakistan.
This is a global problem. So men do have a
role to play. And I would ask men and boys
to become allies of women. May become allies of your sisters,
(18:59):
your mothers, your wife, you know, your female colleagues and friends.
And whenever you see that there's something going wrong and
you know people are being sexist or they are discriminating
against women, like do step up Your voice can really
be powerful because you know, other men do listen to you,
so when it comes from you, it can be pretty impactful.
(19:21):
But that's a good question. Well, this one kind of
builds on that. This is from a soon to be
Yale student, but one of these students is asking how
you kind of convince people to be allies or how
you deal with people who have different perceptions on you.
So if you meet somebody who disagrees with you, what
can you do to open up conversation? You know, how
do you change people's minds and get them to see
the light? I would say this, this is not an
(19:43):
easy question, and this is something that's on my mind
all the time. I think, you know, in my personal experience,
things do change with time, and sometimes it's it's not
a conversation that actually changes people's minds in perspective, it's
the time that they spend with you. It's the more
experience that they have with you that can really change
their perspective. Because, as I mentioned, even our activism for
(20:06):
girl's education was initially as an external idea, as a
foreign idea, and with time, now that I am educated
that more and more girls are receiving their education, and
it doesn't make us like any different, you know, we're
still the same women. I'm really proud of my culture
(20:26):
and my religion, and I don't leave any of that behind.
And I want to tell people that, like these ideas
are universal and we should not really associate it with
some sort of like a foreign idea. You can make
equality and fairness as part of your own culture as well,
and in fact, like your culture and your religion is
also promoting these ideas. So when I'll give two examples,
(20:50):
one is of my father's cousin who had worked on
our family tree, And when my father's cousin showed that
family tree to my dad, my dad wrote down my name,
and his cousin was like really surprised because that family
tree was full of men's names. It's not that we
did not have women in our family, but that women
were not recognized as part of that family bloodline. And
(21:13):
he was quite shocked, like, you know, why would you
write a woman's name there, Like, you know, it's it's silly.
But then like today, that cousin of my dad is
so proud of me and he supports us, and he
believes why it's important to educate your daughters. And the
same was, you know, the case with me as well.
Like one of my very close family members, he was
(21:35):
asked by my dad to take me to this press
conference and somehow like I needed a male companion to
take me, and he was, you know, he was pretty frustrated,
and he complained to my dad that, you know, Malala
should not appear in front of TV cameras and she should,
you know, at least sit in the house, or at
least she should cover her face, like it's a shame
(21:56):
to the family. And he was facing a lot of
pressure from other people in the community. But my father
stood up for me and he told him that it
was none of his business and that I can make
any decision for myself. But today that same family member
is the biggest supporter of mine because they realize that
education is sort of beyond these personal opinions and it's
(22:20):
something that not only benefits women and girls, but it
benefits our communities as well. So these things do change
with time, I think, and it's when people are exposed
toward experiences more opinions, it really helps them. So it's
good to be open to more opinions and perspectives, and like,
I do that for myself as well. Sometimes I have
this idea like we are the righteous ones and we
are on the right path, and whatever is slightly in
(22:43):
disagreement with our opinions is sort of wrong. We should
not have this approach at all. We should be always
open to more and new ideas and try to understand
that perspective. We may not fully agree with them, but
sometimes we realize that, you know, we start with the
same frustrations and then somehow reach two different conclusions. So
it's quite important to understand, like, you know, what are
(23:04):
the frustrations that other people are facing. So it's finding
those commonalities. It's fine ending you know what can bring
us together and say, like, you know, we agree, Yes,
it's the same problem that we are talking about, So
how can we address that? And I think that connects
to another question that we just got, which is how
we can kind of take part in this conversation without
kind of doing it the wrong way. And so one
(23:26):
Yale student asks, how do you suggest people from the
global north from elite institutions, like how can we get
involved in advocacy for girls education without being kind of
a colonialist or paternalistic, right, it's yucky to sort of
think about, you know, people from the West going to
liberate Muslim women like these have yucky connotations. And so
how can well intention students, how can they help in
(23:48):
a way that kind of doesn't have as much of
a colonialist bad side. I guess this is a good question,
and I think there are ways in which, you know,
we all can find a role for ourselves. And like,
even for me, we have an office in DC and
an office in London, but also an office in Nigeria
and Pakistan. But I know that I'm not exposed to
(24:09):
the culture and the economy and the politics of every country.
So I don't know how to fix girls education crisis
in Nigeria or in Brazil. I may have more experience
in Pakistan, but not in the other countries. And the
best way to actually push for these changes is to
support local activists, those who are doing advocacy in those provinces,
(24:32):
and those who are doing advocacy on a national level
as well and also on a global level. So supporting
local angeos, smaller JeOS can be very helpful. But then also,
like you have to remember that the criticism in itself
is I think it's debatable because even if I starting
activism in Pakistan or in Suad, you know, it could
(24:53):
be still called likes you know, for an idea or
like a Western idea or a colonial idea, because there
is value and there is significance in it to an extent,
but also you need to remember that it could be
just exploited for the wrong reasons as well. We should
not be so afraid to step in and do our
bit and ensure that we are communicating and engaging with
(25:16):
the local community members, with the local Enginos, with the
civil society, and they can best guide us, you know,
they can tell you what are the what are the gifts.
We have another question that that's come up a few
times here, and it's actually one that I wanted to
ask you too. I think, you know, one of the
reasons your story is so literally unbelievable to us is
you know how close you are to assassination at the
(25:37):
hands of the Taliban. It's it's awful for any of
us to imagine. It's awful to have gone through. So
my version of the question is sort of, you know,
how do you come around to forgiveness and kind of
dealing with the you know these people who harmed you.
Is there a way that you frame it in a
positive way that allows you to move on? Like what
advice do you have for people who are going through
their own terrible things and need to find a way
(25:58):
towards forgiveness or moving on? Thank you, Lorie. I think
in this question, like I do need to specify that
when the incident happened, all all that I am remember
was that I had my last day of school, I
was on my school bus going back home, and then
there are these sort of mixed thoughts and stuff, and
then like I don't remember anything. I just could not
(26:20):
figure out if it was a dream or like what
was I going through? And then I suddenly wake up
in a hospital in the UK and I see doctors
and nurses around me, and I'm like, what's happening? And
I couldn't speak because of tubing in my next So
it was a like a difficult time and the stories
in my book I Am a Lada, so you can
read more about it in that. But when I realized
(26:41):
that I had received so much support from people around
the world, I was shown these baskets of cards and
letters from people, and I just could not believe it.
I was in complete awe of the support that I had,
and I realized that then it was a second life.
I just it was, you know, it was a chance
that I survived, and this seems like a new life.
(27:02):
It's given for a purpose, and that is to continue
fighting for girls education. And I realized that the best
to take revenge is to go and educate more and
more girls. That's the best way to defeat the ideology
of extremism. I'm not against any person, I'm not against people.
I'm against the ideology of extremism, of hatred, of intolerance.
(27:24):
And we can defeat these ideologies by giving people safe,
quality and free education to ensure that they are in
a place where they're open to ideas, they can seek
more knowledge, they're not stuck in an extreme mind and ideology,
and they can all take different roles in society and
(27:44):
make this world a better place for all of us.
So I believe that education is the best way, and
we know that when women and girls are educated, there
are so many advantages. We live in a much better
world when we have educated women and girls with us.
So you know that is my fright now, and I
have been doing that, and I keep working harder and
(28:06):
harder each and every time to ensure that I see
that day when all girls can go to school safely.
And I hope that countries realize that, you know, there
is a sense of emergency emerging right now for girl's education,
especially when we look at the crisis, when we look
at words of heavening in Afghanistan, when we look at
the fact that financing for education has been stagnant. So
(28:28):
I hope that you know, we see more attention towards
this issue. I think there's one good question that I
would like to answer in the commers, and which is
what's my favorite ice cream flavor? Yeah, so that's that's
when Alla when a lice human just it's quite basic
when I like it. Next time we get you on
Yale's actual campus, I promise to take you to one
(28:49):
of the best ice cream shops on the in the
United States, I think, but definitely in New Haven, Connecticut. Well,
thank you so much for giving us hope, for showing
us the right path, for being such an inspiration to
so many people here today, and thank you so much
for taking your time at your busy schedule to come
here to Yale to chat with us, so Happiness Lab listeners.
(29:12):
I hope my conversation with Malala has inspired you as
much as it's inspired me. When you're faced with adversity,
ask yourself, what can this teach me? How can I
grow from all this? And remember that in those moments
when you're hesitant to take a break from all your
hard work, remember that it's important to take time to unwind.
Even amazing people like Mamala find time to watch some
(29:33):
ted Lasso. Thanks for listening to hear more tips and
tricks on happiness. Be sure to tune in for the
next episode of The Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie Santos.
The Happiness Lab is co written and produced by Ryan Dilley,
Emily Anne Vaughan, and Courtney Guerino. Our original music was
(29:56):
composed by Zachary Silver, with additional scoring, mixing and mastering
by Evan Beola. Special thanks to Milabelle, Heather Faine, John Schnars,
Carli Migliori, Christina Sullivan, Grant Haynes, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler,
Nicole Mrano, Royston Preserve, Jacob Weisberg, and my agent Ben Davis.
The Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries
(30:18):
and me doctor Laurie Santos. To find more Pushkin podcasts,
listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your podcasts.
Pushkin. Inspirational is a ward that gets thrown around a lot,
but it's hard to think of a better way to
describe the woman you'll hear in this episode. Malala Yushavsai
grew up in a remote part of Pakistan, then ruled
by the Violet militants of the Taliban. Life for women
(00:36):
under this oppressive regime was incredibly hard, and Malala, though
just a child, spoke openly about the restrictions placed on
her and her peers and how it had become hard
just to attend school. And then one day, on a
bus ride home from an exam, two Taliban gunmen approached
her vehicle. Who is Malala, they asked. The next thing
(00:56):
Malala remembers is waking up in the hospital. She had
survived a gunshot wound to the head, but instead of wavering,
she began championing harder and louder for equality in girls
education worldwide, and at the age of seventeen, she became
the youngest person ever to receive the Nobel Peace Prize. Recently,
I was lucky enough to host a live event with
(01:18):
Malala at my residential college at Yale, and I thought
all my happiness lab listeners might like to hear not
only her inspirational story, but also to listen to a
remarkable woman like Malala talking about burnout, self criticism, guilt,
family frictions, and even relaxing with Ted Lasso. Everyone at Yale,
everyone around the world who's joining us, please join me
(01:40):
and welcoming Malala. So settle in to hear some happiness
lessons from Malala with me. Doctor Laurie Santo's on the
Happiness Lab. I'm imagining that talking to a professor like
this over zoo when a like clunky internet connection must
take you back to like when you switch to remote
(02:00):
university back at Oxford in twenty twenty. I'm just curious
that time was so difficult for my students at Yale,
Like what was it like for you and kind of
how did you handle it? This was a tough time
for students all around the world. When the pandemic hit,
no one was prepared for how it would impact their studies.
I took my exam from home, I graduated from home,
(02:21):
and then again I was stuck at home. I was
so excited for life after university. I was just waiting
for that moment when I would be able to move
out and just explore what was out there. It was
quite difficult because you realize that it's not just you,
it's like it's everybody. It's all of us, and unfortunately
some of us were impacted more than others because of
(02:43):
where they come from in which geographies they were based.
I do advocacy for girls education and I dream of
a world where we see the number of girls who
are out of school reduced with time. But when COVID
hit at Manana Fund, we did a research which showed
that twenty million more girls are at risk of dropping
out because they're stuck at home. They're more likely to
(03:05):
be forced into marriages. They also will be helping their
family financially. And I realize that, you know, progress is
not linear as you are promised or as you are told.
There are these setbacks that are these external shocks that
can damage the work that's been done for the past
many many decades. COVID with such a tough time, but
I mean, the amazing thing about your work is you're
(03:27):
constantly turning your attention to these awful, awful situations that
face women's education and that face refugees. And one of
the things I wanted to talk about in our conversation today,
is how you get to keep doing such important work,
you know, how you kind of take care of yourself,
like in the context of kind of dealing with so
much suffering. The thing that I admire most about you,
and I know so many people admire most about you,
which is your courage. You know, it feels like you're
(03:49):
constantly diving in and doing really hard things. And I'm
curious what you do to cultivate that, Like, are there
strategies that you use to like psyche yourself up to
do all the kinds of things that intimidate you. You You know,
what advice would you give for you budding activists to
think about how they can gain some courage activism is,
you know, it's sort of my day to day job.
And I do not limit activism do just appearing on
(04:10):
stage or doing a TV interview or visiting a refugee camp.
I think when you are an activist, you have to
enshow that you are reflecting the message in your own
actions as well and how you live your life. So
if I am promoting forgiveness and kindness, and if I'm
bringing attention to justice and fairness, and I believe that,
(04:32):
you know, we should be living in a society where
everyone is treated fairly, regardless of their gender and their background.
Then I need to question myself, you know, is that
reflecting from the way I live my life or not.
You know, sometimes you have to make tough choices, you
have to ask tough questions, and it does require a
lot of strength to do that. But in my own
personal journey, you know, I know what it is like
(04:54):
to be told not to go to school, and I
know what it is like to be deprived of education.
It was in two thousand and eight and nine when
the Taliban gained a lot of influence in Swat Valley
in the north of Pakistan. The band Gil's Education band
women from going to markets. They were actually against the
presence of women in public and they did not see
(05:16):
a society where women could practice equal rights as men.
So I was part of that. I wanted the world
to speak out for me. I wanted someone to raise
their voice for me. And in this moment, when I
look at the fact that there are one hundred and
twenty seven million girls out of school, that right now
in Afghanistan, girls are banned from secondary education, that refugee
(05:37):
crisis is worsening, and more and more children are impacted
by wars and conflicts, and more and more children are
not receiving safe, in quality education that they deserved. So
I look back and I think about that Malala who
wanted the world to speak out. So I feel a
sense of responsibility because I wish more people had spoken
out for me, and I know that there are girls
(05:58):
who want us to speak out for them. This work
of sort of speaking out is so important, right, both
doing it yourself and kind of being this ripple effects
so you can cause other people to speak. It's so critical,
but it also can be so exhausting, like kind of
holding the crises of the world so close, you know,
is tough. And so I'm wondering, especially being so young
when you started this, like you know, how you're able
(06:20):
to keep doing this work that requires so much resiliency?
You know, have you ever gotten close to burnout? Are
there things you do to protect yourself from burnout? And
doing this work? The burnout is there in different phases.
It's like, you know, you focus on one cause and
one mission and you put so much energy into it
and then you achieve nothing. So I do advocacy for
(06:41):
financing for education, because there's a huge gap in financing
for education and reaching up to two hundred billion dollars.
So if it keeps expanding and we are not investing
enough into education, the crisis worsens. And we know it
has that ripple effect as well. Our health, our economies,
general equality, all of these things are impacted when we
(07:01):
don't invest in the education of girls, in the quality
education of all of our children. So, you know, these
things concern me. And when I do add the case
and I push for like you know, these G seven
leaders or D twenty countries and other policymakers, and then
sometimes they say a few nice words, and when you
look at the policy, they have not made any financial commitment.
(07:21):
They are not actually making the right policies that can
in show that we see general equality and we see
enough investment in girls education. So it does frustrate you.
So there is that burnout in that sense that you
feel like, could I have done a bit more? Was
it a bit optimistic of me that I even considered
it to be impactful? But then in those times I
(07:43):
remind myself of the positives and of the success that
we have made for instance, seeing the progress that has
been made in terms of focusing on this higher secondary
education of girls. The focus so far had been on
primary education, but now they have pushed for complete twelve
years of education. And I know that, you know, we
(08:04):
need to give complete education to every child so that
they can make choices for themselves for their future. So
you know that has been a success. So there is
a bit of hope and optimism in those times. You
have to remind yourself that if you are exhausted, you
are not going to be productive anyway, and you are
not going to be able to help in your activism
(08:24):
and your mission as much as you would want to be.
So you need to recharge yourself. And so I'm wondering
how you do that. I know, you know my students
at Yale sometimes if they feel kind of stressed and
anxious when they take time off. I feel like that
must be even worse if you're an activist, like you're
doing such amazing work. I'm curious, you know, how do
you get yourself to take a break or what is
moology for fun? I guess it's a question. Yeah, I
(08:46):
think the guilty is always there when you take a
break and For me personally, it is spending time with
my friends, even if it's you know, one video chat
even that health sore, spending time with my partner and
just you know, going for a nice dinner or just
taking a bit of time off. I love to play
badminton and cricket as well. Yeah, just just spending time
(09:08):
with your family can really help you. And you know,
watch a comedy show, watch ted Lasso, or watch you know,
Inventing an Now or something like that, and it sort
of distinctive for a moment, and then you are back
into your mission with a fresh mind and with a
new perspective, and it really helps you to be more
productive and more efficient in your work. That's awesome. I
(09:30):
love to hear that you prioritize taking rest and having
fun and just like you know, watching ted Lasso, amazing show.
I'm also curious about a different kind of stressor that
you face that's maybe different than some of my Yale students,
which is that, like, you know, you're this public figure, right,
you know, I know, I know so many of my
Yale students, especially my seniors now, are facing this hard
choice of like what should they do after college and
sort of thinking about next steps. But you know, with
(09:52):
a huge public platform like yours, I'm guessing the consequences
of your choices must feel even bigger, like just just
must feel like there's so many important things at stake,
and so you know, having just graduated from Oxford and
things like, you know, how you handle this, like how
do you make such big decisions? And do you grapple
with the same kind of indecision that I see with
my people too? Yes, I think, you know, young people
(10:13):
in this time are facing a lot of pressure. They
feel the urgency to take action, and there are a
lot of issues that concern us, and we know that
if we don't take action sooner, these issues will get worse,
and climate change is one example of that. I think
with this generation, we do dream of a better, fairer, kinder,
more peaceful world, and it still really frustrates us to
(10:38):
imagine that we still exist in a world where wars
are happening, where people are not actually understanding how you know,
for some economic gains we put the lives of people
at risk, and that we are still discriminating against people
based on their gender, based on their skin color, based
on their background, on their income level. So you know,
(10:59):
but I'm really happy to see that young people are
concerned about these issues and that they care and that
they come out and they take action. But I think
at the same time really important for young people to
prioritize their own learning, their own expertise as well, because
you know, with time, you realize that you also deserve
(11:20):
to be in those positions of power. You also deserve
to be in politics. You know, you need to be
the CEOs of the future. You need to be the
prime ministers and presidents of the future. You need to
take the roles of ministries as well, and you are
in the best place to make those decisions that can
actually help people. So I do encourage young people to
(11:41):
take a role in in these organizations in politics as well,
build your expertise, continue your education, learn from other people.
But in future, like do you imagine yourselves as the
decision makers and then you can make those decisions for
the future. That's awesome. We had one question from my
soul miss student Akio, who asks about what it's like
(12:02):
to be a pop culture I can't. I know your
name was like featured in movies and like your people
talk about you on TV shows and stuff. And so
I think Aki is just wondering, like, what's that? Like?
Is it just weird? Like do you enjoy it? I
will be honest that I caught up with the pop
culture stuff pretty late, but the pandemic really brought me
(12:23):
to watch TV shows and also like university time as well,
I started binge watching like Big Bank Period and other shows.
It's a big source of procrastination. I have seen like
my name being mentioned in a few shows, especially I
think in Succession. I was just watching it like randomly,
and then they mentioned my name, and I'm like, that's
pretty awkward. I don't know how to react to that,
(12:46):
but sometimes, you know, it's fun to see that. It's
a bit of a surprise, but it's fun to see
that about. What really makes me happy is the support
that I received from people from all around the world.
They are supporting my organization, Malana Fund, through which we
support an advocate for girls education. They are supporting us
through following like a newsletter. They're following my personal journey,
(13:09):
my personal opinions and thoughts through my bulletin platform Podium.
So I'm really happy to see that, and I really
appreciate the support that people have given to me. That's amazing.
And so another one of our community member is Victor
asks during a recent keynote education summit, you said it's
easier to feel distant from current crises around the world,
like those affecting refugees, and so Victor's asking, what can
(13:31):
we do to shake ourselves from this stupor, especially when
the media might not be helping us. How can we
reframe things to become more effective supporters because there's so
many people who need our help, who are just people
just like us, but sometimes things can feel so far away.
Any ideas for how we can feel closer and really
take more action, That's a great question. There are definitely
(13:51):
ways in which you can support refugees and you can
bring attention to other causes that you believe in. You know,
one of our biggest power is voting and then those
who we vote, holding them accountable, and it's writing to them,
it's putting more pressure on them and ask them that,
you know, what are they doing for refugees for other issues?
(14:13):
And you know, young people writing a letter to their
their local politicians and also participating in in those local
organizations and also in the international organizations like supporting their
causes raising awareness. So I think you know, those local
led activism can be really powerful and at Malanafen, like
(14:33):
the way we do projects is we support local activists
in ten countries including Pakistan, India, Nigeria, Brazil, Ethiopia. And
these are activists who are figuring out out what are
the barriers that prevent girls from schools And it could
be like lack a female teachers, or it could be sanitation,
(14:56):
it could be infrastructure, or it could be the lack
of other facilities. And when you address those specific issues,
you can help many more girls to enrol into schools.
And sometimes the policy changes that you need to make
that can involve more girls into schools. In Nigeria, for instance,
our education activists in the state of Kaduna pastor legislation
(15:16):
that helped them to reduce the hidden fees that students
had to face in schools from like covering uniform or
other schools stationary books, et cetera. That impacted girls more
because families were less likely to cover these extra costs
for their girls. And even in this COVID time, they
were able to do classes through radios, through televisions, through
(15:37):
mobile aaps to ensure that even if girls can't be
in school, they can still learn from home, so that
these girls do not miss out on their education. So
I think it's supporting these local activists, supporting local organizations.
It can really help us to bring more impact and
that positive change in our communities and in communities around
(15:59):
the world. When we come back from the break, Malala
will share more of her tips on advocating for change
and how you can begin to win over people who
are deeply opposed to equality justice, even if they happened
to be in your very own family. The Happiness Lab.
We'll be right back. Even though we're doing this as
(16:26):
a Silliman College t at Yale, because we're on Facebook Live,
we're kind of all over the world. And someone in
our Silliman community shared this with their friends community, which
got to a fifth grade classroom in Tucson, Arizona. So
I want to share one of their questions, which is
coming from a fifth grade student who's, you know, thinking
about what life must have been like for you when
you were kind of being treated differently just because you
(16:46):
were a woman. And so the question is, how did
you feel when men in Pakistan thought less of you?
Simply because you were a girl trying to get education.
How has that shaped you and how do you see
this shaping even women today who have to fight for
education and girls today who have to fight for an education.
I would share my personal story first, So when I
was growing up, there weren't these gender stage your lives
(17:07):
that were influencing my life ready. And I was not
the only woman or girl whose life was impacted. Women
overall are impacted by these gender stereotypes. They are called lesser,
they're told that they can't be leaders, they can't be activists,
that they can't be better decision makers. And I was
really lucky that my father believed in in me. He
(17:30):
just believed in this basic idea that men and women
are all equal and why should they be discriminated based
on their gender. And I always tell people that I
started speaking out and I was able to raise my voice.
But this could have been any other girl in Swath Valley.
But different in my story is that my father did
not stop me. There were so many other manalas out
(17:53):
there who could have raised their voices and who wanted to,
and who even had started, but their brothers, their fathers,
their male family members, stopped them from speaking out. So
sometimes it's you know, it's the small step of not
stopping women as my father, yourselves, don't don't click women's wings.
Allow women to go forward. It sometimes, you know, means
(18:15):
they're giving them the space, giving them the room to
step forward. Don't stand in their way. Be their allies,
be their supporters. You know, I was lucky that my
father and my brothers, and there are other men right
now who are you know, becoming advocates for women's rights.
And when they see women in their own community become leaders,
become um activists, it really gives them, you know, that
(18:37):
role model. Yes, it is possible for women to be leaders,
to be in sports, and to be in science and
to be inventors. You know, I know that this is
not a problem, you know just in one part of Pakistan.
This is a global problem. So men do have a
role to play. And I would ask men and boys
to become allies of women. May become allies of your sisters,
(18:59):
your mothers, your wife, you know, your female colleagues and friends.
And whenever you see that there's something going wrong and
you know people are being sexist or they are discriminating
against women, like do step up Your voice can really
be powerful because you know, other men do listen to you,
so when it comes from you, it can be pretty impactful.
(19:21):
But that's a good question. Well, this one kind of
builds on that. This is from a soon to be
Yale student, but one of these students is asking how
you kind of convince people to be allies or how
you deal with people who have different perceptions on you.
So if you meet somebody who disagrees with you, what
can you do to open up conversation? You know, how
do you change people's minds and get them to see
the light? I would say this, this is not an
(19:43):
easy question, and this is something that's on my mind
all the time. I think, you know, in my personal experience,
things do change with time, and sometimes it's it's not
a conversation that actually changes people's minds in perspective, it's
the time that they spend with you. It's the more
experience that they have with you that can really change
their perspective. Because, as I mentioned, even our activism for
(20:06):
girl's education was initially as an external idea, as a
foreign idea, and with time, now that I am educated
that more and more girls are receiving their education, and
it doesn't make us like any different, you know, we're
still the same women. I'm really proud of my culture
(20:26):
and my religion, and I don't leave any of that behind.
And I want to tell people that, like these ideas
are universal and we should not really associate it with
some sort of like a foreign idea. You can make
equality and fairness as part of your own culture as well,
and in fact, like your culture and your religion is
also promoting these ideas. So when I'll give two examples,
(20:50):
one is of my father's cousin who had worked on
our family tree, And when my father's cousin showed that
family tree to my dad, my dad wrote down my name,
and his cousin was like really surprised because that family
tree was full of men's names. It's not that we
did not have women in our family, but that women
were not recognized as part of that family bloodline. And
(21:13):
he was quite shocked, like, you know, why would you
write a woman's name there, Like, you know, it's it's silly.
But then like today, that cousin of my dad is
so proud of me and he supports us, and he
believes why it's important to educate your daughters. And the
same was, you know, the case with me as well.
Like one of my very close family members, he was
(21:35):
asked by my dad to take me to this press
conference and somehow like I needed a male companion to
take me, and he was, you know, he was pretty frustrated,
and he complained to my dad that, you know, Malala
should not appear in front of TV cameras and she should,
you know, at least sit in the house, or at
least she should cover her face, like it's a shame
(21:56):
to the family. And he was facing a lot of
pressure from other people in the community. But my father
stood up for me and he told him that it
was none of his business and that I can make
any decision for myself. But today that same family member
is the biggest supporter of mine because they realize that
education is sort of beyond these personal opinions and it's
(22:20):
something that not only benefits women and girls, but it
benefits our communities as well. So these things do change
with time, I think, and it's when people are exposed
toward experiences more opinions, it really helps them. So it's
good to be open to more opinions and perspectives, and like,
I do that for myself as well. Sometimes I have
this idea like we are the righteous ones and we
are on the right path, and whatever is slightly in
(22:43):
disagreement with our opinions is sort of wrong. We should
not have this approach at all. We should be always
open to more and new ideas and try to understand
that perspective. We may not fully agree with them, but
sometimes we realize that, you know, we start with the
same frustrations and then somehow reach two different conclusions. So
it's quite important to understand, like, you know, what are
(23:04):
the frustrations that other people are facing. So it's finding
those commonalities. It's fine ending you know what can bring
us together and say, like, you know, we agree, Yes,
it's the same problem that we are talking about, So
how can we address that? And I think that connects
to another question that we just got, which is how
we can kind of take part in this conversation without
kind of doing it the wrong way. And so one
(23:26):
Yale student asks, how do you suggest people from the
global north from elite institutions, like how can we get
involved in advocacy for girls education without being kind of
a colonialist or paternalistic, right, it's yucky to sort of
think about, you know, people from the West going to
liberate Muslim women like these have yucky connotations. And so
how can well intention students, how can they help in
(23:48):
a way that kind of doesn't have as much of
a colonialist bad side. I guess this is a good question,
and I think there are ways in which, you know,
we all can find a role for ourselves. And like,
even for me, we have an office in DC and
an office in London, but also an office in Nigeria
and Pakistan. But I know that I'm not exposed to
(24:09):
the culture and the economy and the politics of every country.
So I don't know how to fix girls education crisis
in Nigeria or in Brazil. I may have more experience
in Pakistan, but not in the other countries. And the
best way to actually push for these changes is to
support local activists, those who are doing advocacy in those provinces,
(24:32):
and those who are doing advocacy on a national level
as well and also on a global level. So supporting
local angeos, smaller JeOS can be very helpful. But then also,
like you have to remember that the criticism in itself
is I think it's debatable because even if I starting
activism in Pakistan or in Suad, you know, it could
(24:53):
be still called likes you know, for an idea or
like a Western idea or a colonial idea, because there
is value and there is significance in it to an extent,
but also you need to remember that it could be
just exploited for the wrong reasons as well. We should
not be so afraid to step in and do our
bit and ensure that we are communicating and engaging with
(25:16):
the local community members, with the local Enginos, with the
civil society, and they can best guide us, you know,
they can tell you what are the what are the gifts.
We have another question that that's come up a few
times here, and it's actually one that I wanted to
ask you too. I think, you know, one of the
reasons your story is so literally unbelievable to us is
you know how close you are to assassination at the
(25:37):
hands of the Taliban. It's it's awful for any of
us to imagine. It's awful to have gone through. So
my version of the question is sort of, you know,
how do you come around to forgiveness and kind of
dealing with the you know these people who harmed you.
Is there a way that you frame it in a
positive way that allows you to move on? Like what
advice do you have for people who are going through
their own terrible things and need to find a way
(25:58):
towards forgiveness or moving on? Thank you, Lorie. I think
in this question, like I do need to specify that
when the incident happened, all all that I am remember
was that I had my last day of school, I
was on my school bus going back home, and then
there are these sort of mixed thoughts and stuff, and
then like I don't remember anything. I just could not
(26:20):
figure out if it was a dream or like what
was I going through? And then I suddenly wake up
in a hospital in the UK and I see doctors
and nurses around me, and I'm like, what's happening? And
I couldn't speak because of tubing in my next So
it was a like a difficult time and the stories
in my book I Am a Lada, so you can
read more about it in that. But when I realized
(26:41):
that I had received so much support from people around
the world, I was shown these baskets of cards and
letters from people, and I just could not believe it.
I was in complete awe of the support that I had,
and I realized that then it was a second life.
I just it was, you know, it was a chance
that I survived, and this seems like a new life.
(27:02):
It's given for a purpose, and that is to continue
fighting for girls education. And I realized that the best
to take revenge is to go and educate more and
more girls. That's the best way to defeat the ideology
of extremism. I'm not against any person, I'm not against people.
I'm against the ideology of extremism, of hatred, of intolerance.
(27:24):
And we can defeat these ideologies by giving people safe,
quality and free education to ensure that they are in
a place where they're open to ideas, they can seek
more knowledge, they're not stuck in an extreme mind and ideology,
and they can all take different roles in society and
(27:44):
make this world a better place for all of us.
So I believe that education is the best way, and
we know that when women and girls are educated, there
are so many advantages. We live in a much better
world when we have educated women and girls with us.
So you know that is my fright now, and I
have been doing that, and I keep working harder and
(28:06):
harder each and every time to ensure that I see
that day when all girls can go to school safely.
And I hope that countries realize that, you know, there
is a sense of emergency emerging right now for girl's education,
especially when we look at the crisis, when we look
at words of heavening in Afghanistan, when we look at
the fact that financing for education has been stagnant. So
(28:28):
I hope that you know, we see more attention towards
this issue. I think there's one good question that I
would like to answer in the commers, and which is
what's my favorite ice cream flavor? Yeah, so that's that's
when Alla when a lice human just it's quite basic
when I like it. Next time we get you on
Yale's actual campus, I promise to take you to one
(28:49):
of the best ice cream shops on the in the
United States, I think, but definitely in New Haven, Connecticut. Well,
thank you so much for giving us hope, for showing
us the right path, for being such an inspiration to
so many people here today, and thank you so much
for taking your time at your busy schedule to come
here to Yale to chat with us, so Happiness Lab listeners.
(29:12):
I hope my conversation with Malala has inspired you as
much as it's inspired me. When you're faced with adversity,
ask yourself, what can this teach me? How can I
grow from all this? And remember that in those moments
when you're hesitant to take a break from all your
hard work, remember that it's important to take time to unwind.
Even amazing people like Mamala find time to watch some
(29:33):
ted Lasso. Thanks for listening to hear more tips and
tricks on happiness. Be sure to tune in for the
next episode of The Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie Santos.
The Happiness Lab is co written and produced by Ryan Dilley,
Emily Anne Vaughan, and Courtney Guerino. Our original music was
(29:56):
composed by Zachary Silver, with additional scoring, mixing and mastering
by Evan Beola. Special thanks to Milabelle, Heather Faine, John Schnars,
Carli Migliori, Christina Sullivan, Grant Haynes, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler,
Nicole Mrano, Royston Preserve, Jacob Weisberg, and my agent Ben Davis.
The Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries
(30:18):
and me doctor Laurie Santos. To find more Pushkin podcasts,
listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your podcasts.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.