The Energy of Author & Poet Elisabeth Sharp McKetta: Writing For Your Life

Episode Transcript
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Thom Pollard (00:00):
This is the happiness quotient.

(00:09):
We all know what a fable isshort story that illustrates a
moral lesson. The plot of afable has conflict resolution
followed by a truth about life.
Think tortoise and the hare byAesop, the more advanced form of
storytelling generally includesthe same elements in a mythic

(00:29):
structure. For instance,somebody goes into the woods and
comes out wiser about the waysof the world emerging with an
elixir, real or symbolic tobring healing and hope. What
about memoirs like the one I'mendeavoring to write Finally,
and sharing a memoir withreaders we share our lessons

(00:49):
really the morals of ourstories, our experiences the
keys, to our versions of happilyever after. Yet, memoir writers
often like myself get stuckchoosing which stories to
include, of all the things thathave happened in our lives. That
right there is the generaldescription of an advanced

(01:11):
memoir writing course at HarvardExtension School, taught by
noted author, poet teacher ofwriting for both Harvard and
Oxford, Elizabeth sharp McKenna,who was introduced to me by a
fellow explorer Jonathan howReynolds himself an accomplished
author. When I told him about mywriter's block, for lack of a

(01:35):
better word, he suggested that Imeet Elizabeth Elizabeth Sharpe
McKenna is my guest today on thehappiness quotient, and I'm very
excited.

The Wood Brothers (02:00):
Well, happy.
happy, Happiness Jones

Welcome. Before we get started, please check out a
course in happiness. In thisshort, colorful guide. This easy
to follow roadmap providesgentle positive suggestions that
for eons have been taught by theMasters on how to stop chasing
happiness. In our path towardunlocking the mysteries to

(02:26):
life's big questions. Go topatreon.com, the happiness
quotient, where you'll find afree pdf download of a course in
happiness.
I'm Thom Pollard. Elizabethsharp McKenna is a storyteller

(02:47):
and the author of eight booksincluding fear of the deep and
fear of the beast, bothcollaborations with artists Troy
passie. She wrote the biographyenergy the life of john J.
McKenna, Jr. in 2017. It's atrue story of a coal miner and
her grandfather, who set out tochange how America uses energy,

(03:12):
and a children's book titled welive in Boise. She also did a
TEDx talk called edit your lifelike a poem. One of the projects
she has in the works is theanthology, what doesn't kill her
women's resilience stories, andalso a manifesto handbook called

(03:32):
edit your life. She hasliterature degrees from get this
Harvard, Georgetown, Universityof Texas at Austin, wrote a PhD
dissertation on theintersections between memoir and
myth. Ha, as in, don't let thetruth get in the way of a good
story, a concept that nowinforms her teaching and writing

(03:54):
and her entire way of looking atthe world. She has two children
that are blessed by herincredible creativity and
excitement about meeting otherpeople and telling stories.
Maybe with all this and lifewith her husband and two
children living on the westcoast of England during COVID
might give her the wherewithalto ghost write my memoir that

(04:18):
I've been lying to the worldabout, Well, not really. But
during this interview, she didgive me some respite or some
salvation in that sometimeswe're not ready to write a story
until we're ready to write astory. A lot of the work is
going on inside the mind. Hermost recent work is the just
released, she never told meabout the ocean. And it's

(04:42):
described by author KarenRussell as a title an intimate
book brimming over with wondersand terrors and the watery
echoes that bind generations ofwomen. What a pleasure this book
is from start to finish McKennamaps The dark portals through
which are women continuouslyreinvent themselves newborn at

(05:06):
every age. Here is myconversation with the brilliant,
the aboolian super intuitive andcreative. Elizabeth sharp mcheza
on the west coast of England,where she works virtually and in
real life with her children andin writing. Toward the end of
our conversation, Elizabeth gaveme an assignment to once and for

(05:29):
all, get me off my arse towardwriting this memoir, in our
endeavor to discuss how to writea memoir, how to leave behind a
story about our real selves anddo it right, or at least
creatively, so somebody mightwant to read it. I first
couldn't help but ask her aboutteaching virtually and all. And
if she'd had any pranksters everzoom bomb, one of her classes,

(05:53):
and I wasn't disappointed. Itled perfectly into a Convo about
legacy.

Elisabeth Sharp McKetta (05:59):
Funny, I had, I don't know if I told
you this during our lastconversation, but I had my first
zoom bombing experience twoweeks ago during this sweet,
tiny 11 person reading that Idid with my close family and
friends for my novel is sort ofa an intimate launch party slash
practice. And one of him postedthe link on Facebook. And there

(06:23):
was this list of unknown namesin the waiting room that without
knowing about zoom omics, I justsort of let them all in. And
when within the first minutethere was one whose name was an
unrecognizable name and saying,you know, all of these, all of
these sort of expletive,expletive, so I just removed him
from the room. But then a secondlater, another one, turned on
his camera and had a gun and wassort of pointing it at everyone
so that I removed him from theroom. But afterwards, everyone

(06:45):
in the room was sort of a littlestunned. And then we sort of had
a laugh, and we got back to it.
But afterwards, I had aconversation with you know, with
the few people who stay laterand we sort of thought, well,
let's talk about what the zoomover gets out of this. Like,
what is the zoom over get out ofthis? And we couldn't figure it
out?

Yeah, the need to feel some impact, you know,
isn't that ultimately, thepeople doing things for shock is
we just become little moleculesin this vast sea of, of being

(07:23):
insignificant, which is fine forsome people who are balanced.
That's cool, being just as happynot to be noticed, somewhere,
but then there are other peoplewho are like, darn it, I'm
something and I want to be heardand seen. So I'm going to go
screw up this meeting, boom, youknow, and that's a mini scale,
not like the, you know, the, youknow, the guy went after john

(07:47):
lennon and things like that,right?

I think you're right. I love that point.
And one of the early I love thatpoint for so many reasons. Both
for this parenting book that Ifeel like I subscribe to most
when my babies were tiny wascalled positive discipline. And
there were like, 17 of them,like positive discipline for
teenagers positive disciplinefor teenage musicians, positive
discipline for you know, anyonewho can possibly imagine. But
the sort of basic premise is,all humans want two things, they

(08:13):
want significance, and they wantbelonging. So we can sort of
feel, you know, sort of in thetribe in an unconditional way.
And if we can give them choresthat are right, you know, like,
if the three year old fails tomilk, the cow, the child, the
family doesn't have milk for ayear. Like, that's, that's
significance, like they have,you know, kids sort of don't
have anything that they actuallydo that helps. I mean, Well,

(08:36):
anyway, that's, it's interestingthat I think you're right, that
in a very base level, we want toknow that sort of the ripples
that we create touch otherpeople, whether for good or for
ill.

Yeah, like, how long are people going to
remember us after we die? Imean, you could write a book,
which is one way but like, howdo how do you ensure some
legacy? You know, and havingkids is one way But as you know,
some people are like, well, you,yeah, okay. So you have kids now

(09:07):
you can relax. It's like, what'sthe importance of carrying on a
name?

Yes.
What is the importance? Like? Imean, most of us will be
forgotten. And even those whoare remembered Shakespeare, like
think how little we know abouthim. Look, that really, that I
feel has been like haunting methis week, more than other
weeks. But I read it when I wastrying to figure out how to
revise my my OSHA novel, whichafter the first draft was just

(09:35):
like this big pile of beautifulbones that was sort of all in
the wrong order. So I read allthese books on you know,
probably more from your realm,you know, screenwriting and
plotting and how a narrativethat is economical and kind of
tells the story, and I read allthe bass you know, the, Robert
McKee and Joseph Campbell, yousaw all the kind of big plot
books many recommended byJonathan, and then I read one
that was sort of a lesser knownin that canon called the verse

(09:58):
Jin's promise called by KimHudson, I don't know if I
mentioned this last time, butthis book left such an
impression on me. And one of thethings that it talked about that
relates to this idea of legacyis that in feminine mythologies,
they're sort of in anymythologies, they're, you know,
three life stages. There's the,we're young, when we're kind of
in the middle of our life whenwe're older, and then the author
divides, looks at the youngerstage as the virgin stage, that

(10:21):
it's our time, you know, in tofigure out what, what we're made
of what, what, what we love whatwe need, and to feel that, that
if we kind of shine light onthat once of light imagery, and
share that with the world thatwe're sort of being true to our
virgin selves. If we sellourselves to someone else's
vision of us we sort ofarchetype we've become, you

(10:42):
know, we've we've poured outsort of what's sacred to us. And
in the middle stage, the kind ofmother we tend to kind of
sprouts in our immediate circleof control, like whether it's
children, or whether it's brainchildren, or whether it's a
business or whatever. But thethings that kind of require our
energy to grow, our job is tokind of nurture those so virgin
nurtures herself mother nurturesort of these young without
burning yourself out. And thenthe stage that's most

(11:03):
interesting to me is the thirdstage, which is, which the
author describes is the, thewise woman or the Crone who's a
trickster, she's pure trickster.
And her job is to you know,she's nurtured herself, she's
nurtured her young of any form.
And then our job is to nurturethe world that she's about to
leave. And so she's got to kindof look at it with a smile,
recognize that it's flawed, andthen throw obstacles into the

(11:23):
path of the people who are stillshaping it, so that if they're
on the wrong path, they willshake their lives up and find
the right paths. And then shecan exit the world feeling that
she's kind of improved theworld. But according to Kip
Hudson, if she clings to hermortality to her mortality too
much, and disrupts people'spaths for her own gain, not for
others, then she becomes the hagwho's Right, right. So the the

(11:46):
kind of the Crone of a mentor,basically, just their only
legacy is to sort of leave theworld better than they found it
without being without caring ifthey're remembered or not.

Oh, man, that is so good. I love that, because
that's the truth of when, whenindividuals in their pursuit or
in their, in their path towardwisdom or self, you know, some
kind of realization, as theyencounter obstacles or turns or,

(12:18):
or unpleasant things, death ortragedy, those people have this
opportunity and presented inthose obstacles thrown by the
woman by the Crone, if you will,and they can either curse it.
And you know, curse cancer, I'mnot saying cancer is a good

(12:41):
thing, but, or they can embraceit and say this has, this has
forced me to look at comeoutside of this sphere in which
I live, and look in this way,which is a whole new
perspective. So in that I havegreat thanks and respect for
that, so that that's life, man.
That's what that's so cool. Thatthat will we'll put a reading

(13:05):
list together for thisinterview. And you can suggest
like 10 books, Oh, what fun, and

I want to hear your books, too. I had
so many notes. Last time wetalked.

You are a storyteller. And you you tell
stories, as a as an artist, as apoet, as a as an author, and you
inspire individuals to write andyou've got books, and you just
discussed a little bit about Ibelieve she never told me about
the ocean? Is that the book youwere telling me about? Tell me

(13:42):
about your journey. Withoutgoing into the minutiae that
might, I would take gladly takedays to have this conversation.
But what's your journey? Howdoes Elizabeth get to this place
of teaching people of being inthis wonderful opportunity in

(14:02):
position to share her knowledgeand inspire others to do you
know, to tell their story?

I thank you for that question. And I
feel that that really is thekind of only real question that
we asked each other throughoutlife, I remember having a funny
conversation with my with one ofmy friends in college, because
whenever I would meet a newfriend, I would come away
knowing, you know, their hopesand their dreams, and you know,
where they had come from andwhere they wished to end of
their life, you know, like nineto 15 years from then. I guess

(14:33):
we were 20. So let's say youknow, 70 years. Yeah, that's not
the practicalities of like, Oh,right. What do they do for their
job? Wait, where do they live?
Wait, are they you know, thesesort of details didn't sort of
factor into the conversationbecause they weren't the kind of
big picture the journey I wasjust seems like the main
question and, and I do thinkthat even at a pretty young age
that felt that felt like theonly interesting question which

(14:54):
made me a wreck at small talk inmy teens and 20s. As you can
imagine, But always, you know,in the corner of a party like
hearing about somebody's lifestory,
but um, but it's true, I hadsome of these
experiences when I was really,really young when I was. Well, I
mean, I was raised around booksand I was raised, you know, to

(15:16):
sort of be intellectuallycurious by parents who are but
when I was in college, I had twoteachers who just shifted my
paradigms completely and who Ifeel like I owe so much to, and
one was in fairy tales, and onewas in memoir, and the fairy
tale teacher is still living.
Her name is Maria sitar. And Ijust adore her. She's a giant in
the fairytale field. And she'salso just very gentle and very

(15:37):
maternal. And she took in thisgroup of 1018 year olds, we
actually just had a reunion ofthe 10 of us with Maria datar,
about a month ago, and it wasjust so wonderful to see all of
our sweet faces 20 years older,but she just took us all in and,
and taught us the classic fairytales and urged us to pick a
question that was interesting tous, intellectually and
personally and to write ourpapers on it. And so I is the

(16:00):
oldest of four siblings chosethe topic of birth order,
because I think it's so terriblyunfair that it all the
fairytales the youngest usuallyhas this lovely fate and the
oldest is like boiled in red hotshoes or house for I picked out
by birds or has to, you know, bethrown into the lake and
throttle by the wild man orwhatever happens to be.

(16:21):
So I was curious about thisquestion of, you know, ferry
tells us equalizers.
Historically, because thefirstborns had some of the
advantages, and the youngestdidn't, and also the youngest
had to watch the first you hadto watch the first and second
born, figure out the obviouspaths, and then the youngest had
to become tricky and figure outtheir own. So anyway, I just
loved this idea. I feel like mytakeaway from learning with Muta
tars that fairy tales are boththe the mirrors in which we can
see our lifes from manydifferent angles, and also that

(16:45):
they are ultimately the buildingblocks for all stories. And
neither of those ideas sort ofcame to maturity for me for
maybe 20 more years, althoughI'm still they're still sort of
maturing and I'm still usingthem. But pretty much every book
I've written except for to havefairytales at their core, I
always come back to fairy tales.
Even my biography of mygrandfather, who was a coal

(17:07):
miner turned chemical engineerwas ultimately just jack in the
beanstalk with his life detailskind of stuffed in an excellent
research assistant who filled inall the science that I didn't
understand. But um, they're allthey're all fairy tales, and,
and the other teacher I had whenI was 19, was named hope Hale
Davis, she's no longer alive.
She is the mother of LydiaDavis, who is a wonderful writer
and whose stories often teach mystudents and hope was 95, when

(17:28):
she was teaching at Radcliffeseminars, this course called
journal writing, weaving anautobiography. And I had just
applied my sophomore year ofcollege for every single
creative writing workshop thatHarvard offered. And I've been
rejected by all of them. Mysweet close roommate, who's
still one of my best friends whowas on a pre med track, but who
worked at who worked atRadcliffe, doing sort of

(17:52):
receptionist stuff, brought homea catalog and said, Liz, you
might apply for for one ofthese, because she knew how
discouraged I had felt. And so Iapplied for this community
education class, not knowinganything about it. And I showed
up on the first day, bringing myclutching my little journal
ready to start writing. And Ithought I had come to the wrong
class, because I stood there atage 19, and was surrounded by a

(18:12):
group of women, maybe 18, womenwho were all the youngest was
probably 60. And then theyranged up to the teacher who was
95. And I sort of looked aroundto see if I was in the right
room. And they kind of looked atme to see if I was in the right
room. And once we all ascertainthat I was in the right room,
this group of Cambridge ladieswho, you know, these women
who've been writing theirmemoirs, together for years,
just brought me into the foldand was loving and generous and

(18:35):
honest way and for four yearsuntil the teacher died at age
101. I wrote with them and Iwrote with them every Tuesday.
And I stayed in Cambridge aftercollege to write with them
another year after I graduated,I did not follow a career path,
because I just wanted to keepwriting with them for as long as
I could. And they, I felt like Iwas just initiated into these
stories that even though theywere however many years older

(18:58):
than I was, you know, talkingabout life stages, you know, I
was still in the first sort ofmy life, they were in the, they
were in the third. But really,so many of our, the, the beats
of our stories were the samethings that really sort of
helped me understand that thereare really only three stories in
life, there's the birth, there'slove, there's death, and they
happen again, and again. Andagain. And again, in every
single form. You know, COVID wasa death for many people's jobs.

(19:18):
And you know, literally, formany people, it was the death of
many people's life in a certainhouse or certain country or in a
certain with a certain carefreenature. And then there rebirths
from that. So it was just anincredible experience to write
with these women and just to, tohave them trust me with their
with the stories of their lives.
And for me as a 1920 2122 yearold to have my first book that I

(19:42):
wrote when I was 20 was amemoir, and that looking back on
it, there's something both sortof sweet and also a little silly
about that. I felt like everylife is worth writing about. And
so I think that I've spent mylife since then really knitting
together, these two genres ofhow can we tell fairy tales and
how Can we tell life stories?
And how can those two forms?

(20:03):
Become? How can those two beknit together to tell the
stories that that we need totell about our lives? And I
ended up doing a PhDdissertation on that question
about and sort of coming to thescholarly conclusion that, that
in certain in certain lifestories that we need to tell
that are most vital to tell wecan't tell them as someone who's
still alive and doesn't know theending, unless we borrow from

(20:26):
the fairy tales, unless we bothuse the fairy tales to help
structure jack in the beanstalk.
You know, this is a story of aboy who climbed or this is a
story of someone who overcame amonster. But also I think we
some we can sort of hide sort ofveils behind some of those
fairytale motifs that if we'retelling, you know, retelling a
familiar story that is sort ofcomforting and sort of
democratically familiar, I justthink that there are certain

(20:48):
stories that we're able to tellabout our lives that we maybe
otherwise wouldn't have thecourage or the willingness to
tell. So that idea, bothstructurally and in terms of the
the universality of oneindividual life and all the
individual lives has been soimportant to me in all of my
teaching, and all of my writingand, and in the way that I
parent that you know, mychildren are at age six and 10

(21:09):
are steeped in blue beard. And,you know, Molly would be in the
bloodier the better. And thatalso, I
think, that they, you know, theythey tell a lot of stories. I
mean, I remember the first storymy daughter told was really,
like a family landmark she andher friend were, my husband had
stuffed them both into thestroller, and they were riding
and one person or one childstroller, two of them, and my

(21:30):
daughter was in front and shefell off the stroller and
scraped her nose. And shecouldn't really speak yet, but
she was able to say, you know,something to the effect of, you
know, Calvin, me stroller, myfall off bump nose cry. And that
was it. Like that was all thatshe needed to talk to us about
what that was a story thathappened to her something had

(21:51):
happened to her that she that Iwas not there to witness. So she
needed to tell me. So anyway, Ijust think those things are so
important. And in terms of theteaching, I always kind of, I
mean, I come from a long lineof, of teachers. My grandfather
was a chemical and engineeringfuture. My mom also teaches at
Harvard, she's a journalismteacher. Her students adore her.
My dad taught math before hewent to law school. I've just

(22:14):
been kind of, I've just comefrom from teachers and a lot of
ways. And writing I think sortof came even though my mom was a
writing teacher, and mygrandfather wrote encyclopedias,
I feel like I felt something Ithink I did come like lawyers
write a lot, my dad's lawyer. SoI think I came from both writers
and teachers, but I think I sortof chose writing in a very
devotional way, in terms of likepoetry fiction, fairy tales,

(22:37):
like I want to tell stories thatare arguably kind of frivolous
stories. But that really hit itthat question that you asked,
like, I want to tell storiesabout the journeys humans make
to become themselves. Like,that's the only story that I
want to tell through poetrythrough prose doesn't matter.
Like that's through biography,like, that's the story. And so I
sort of stumbled upon thatreally early felt that that was
my calling, and then just triedevery possible way I could to

(23:00):
come out that in my first, youknow, your, my early efforts
were all just to, to write asmuch as I could. And then I felt
like I needed to learn more,because I kept bumping against
the same hurdles of disciplineplot and just not knowing
things. So that's why I got aPhD As I thought, like, at least
will spend my 20s dealing withideas and reading more, and that
will make me a better writer.
And, and that would also give methe ability to become a teacher,

(23:23):
which I knew would be a wish Iknew I would love. So I sort of
spent my 20s incubating, youknow, writing and teaching. And
then basically the moment Igraduated with a PhD, and I was
I got married and got pregnantand, and sort of decided, Well,
goodbye to, you know, to sort oftraditional jobs, why don't we
see how this writing thing goesout. So for me, my 30s were
completely my 20s were alllearning and my 30s were really

(23:44):
marked with these two thingsthat felt like I had to do them,
like I had never wanted to be asgood at anything as I wanted to
be as you know, as a writer, andas a mother, like those two just
felt like I had to those two areso important. And they came at
the exact same time, which wasutter chaos is you know, as
every parent knows, who also youneed, even with nothing else,

(24:04):
even without the writing, youknow, the first year parenting
was utter chaos. But I thinkthat I've never really been able
to kind of disentangle my lifeas a, as a professional writer
who sits down and wakes up at5am and finishes books and
revises books and does theresearch that is needed to
produce books and, you know,gets rejected 90% of the time,
but that other 10% you know,follows through with the book,

(24:25):
I've never known that withoutalso knowing it as a as a mother
and as a teacher. So I feel likethis sort of triangle of my days
is really kind of what sustainsme and I sort of think sometimes
that I've been really lucky inthat I've had you know, I've had
just such supportive people insort of each of those arenas.
I've got wonderful students andwonderful writer pack and you

(24:46):
know, this wonderful family. Andalso I think that I've It's
lucky to have kind of threelives instead of one because I
can imagine with kind of myenergy and my intensity, how
easy it might be to kind ofburnout in one but um, But I
feel like I can't ever kind ofstretch to the full extent of
energy as I might be able tolike I can't ever I can't
remember the last time I wroteuntil I was tired of writing. So

(25:07):
I had to switch gears to teach,or I can't remember a time when
I've ever been kind of burnedout of teaching because I had to
then shift gears to parent andyou know, same thing, like the
moment I feel like, Alright,people, I need some time away
from, you know, from, I needsome sort of time I need some
adult time, then it's time towrite again. So really, that
triangle is then lovely. And Ihope I can sustain it for as
long as I can.

Wow, that is such a very cool and inspiring kind
of summary of what got you totoday, I guess. And there's so
much more in there, obviously.
But so you had this realintellectual inquisitiveness and
everything but you werecreative, like your grandfather,

(25:49):
you said was a chemicalengineer, or, you know, a
chemist and I have seen thatthere's a school named after him
at the University of Texas,which is pretty amazing. That's
leaving a legacy, which we weretalking about before. But um,
but so you have thisintellectual heritage, and
you're, you're sparked with theintellectual desire, but you're,

(26:12):
for better or for worse, you'reyou have the creative thing
where you, you could have beenan engineer and been making
$150,000, a year, two years outof graduation. But yeah, I had
to be a writer, and a teacher,all my gosh, like, every parent
would just be like, what do younot like, you're gonna be an

(26:33):
actor. I mean, but you did. Butit's because that's the passion
and the truth of your heart. Andyou couldn't ever be anything
but who you were, or are I mean,right?

That's right. That's right. And that's,
I think that's really it. That'swhat I think, you know, has been
so exciting for me to study tostudy your work and to sort of,
you know, look at your talkabout, you know, your talk to
young people about, you know,the things that our parents
worry about, as we follow atypical careers that at the end
of the day, we had to do that wehad to do that. And through one

(27:12):
of my books of reading about,you know, archetypes and myths
and heroes and all of that. AndI've been trying to find this
quote for ages, and it'sprobably on, you know, the one
page I keep skipping over, butit's, it's burgers, writers
journey, in the quotes issomething to be effective, we
tend to think that all heroesare bound by something like
courage or something like beingunafraid. But that's not true.

(27:34):
The single quality that thatbinds all heroes together is
sacrifice. And I think thatthat's, I think that's so moving
that I think by the time we'reall adults, we've all sacrificed
something. And I think that, youknow, arguably, the thing that
we love the most is the thingthat we're willing to sacrifice
other things for, whether that'ssecurity of a certain financial

(27:54):
sword, or whether that's, youknow, being charming after 9pm
in terms of we the 5am writers,like there's something that has
to be sacrificed to kind of loveon that thing properly.

Yeah. Or Good job.
You know, like, you know, like,I just did a presentation on
online virtual presentation theother night, and I base my talk
loosely around the hero'sjourney, if you will, like the,
you know, Joseph Campbell, and,you know, people who aren't
familiar with it, it's not thehero. It's a hero's journey,

(28:25):
meaning in one's own life, andhow you identify with yourself
and follow your path. And, andso for me, early on, I was so
possessed with this desire to goto higher, more wild places and
taste without dying, but tastedeath and witness it and see

(28:45):
what that was like on amountain, if you will, literally
and figuratively, you know, Igave up pretty some good jobs
and relationships that fell bythe wayside. And I just didn't
know how not to do it. It,didn't it. I guess, you know,
you said the word. Courage Idon't look at as courage. I was

(29:06):
like, there's no other way. Iwould actually think I've seen
so many people cave and give uptheir desire to be a
screenwriter or to be a designerand just say, you know what, I'm
going to go I'd rather have anice house. And, you know, and
and that's cool. I'm, I wouldtoo, you know, but um, and give

(29:27):
that up and veer off to take thecorporate job. That's fine. I'm
not judging it, but I couldn'tdo that. I have a lot of friends
who are they could be fullyretired right now. They don't
because they're creative intheir own way of working but I
wouldn't trade in a millionyears what I've gone through and

(29:51):
all the struggle for theirsecond home, you know, on
Nantucket or whatever, as muchas I dearly love them as
friends. But so, so yeah, wepursue who we are and, and I can
only imagine that your twochildren while your husband
sounds like he's doing the samething training for the, you know

(30:11):
to swim the English Channelcrazy man, I love that that's
why I'm drawn to people likeyou're not so I don't even want
to go in the ocean past myknees. It could be a shark in
there you know. So anywaycourage I guess it is right?

Well, I love Oh, this is this this
conversation just like, Oh, thisjust gets me in the heart and I
really it is courage andsomething that you say really
resonates with me that I'd be socurious if you would, that I'd
love to hear you talk more aboutyou were talking about sort of
pursuing these wild places. Andthere's this Hemingway quote
that I love, that's possiblysomething along the lines of

(30:54):
there not a whole lot of,there's not a whole lot of wild,
like, there used to be there nota whole lot of wild places, like
the ones that I love. And I feellike on a metaphorical level, I
feel like the writer who goesinto brave places is often sort
of at the edge of some wild andhas to go there. But again,
there's a safety in that, youknow, like, my, my book is not
wanting to eat me. But I'mreally like, I'm married to

(31:15):
someone who goes into the wildocean, you know, he's gonna swim
the channel these days and days,you know, every day into this
cold water and comes out with ajellyfish bite, or, you know,
having been nudged by seal and,and right now I'm living in in
Cornwall, which is the sort ofplace that's wilder than any
place I've really ever been,although, before that I lived in
Idaho, which was also sort of atthe edge of the wild, but I'm
just so curious, to just hearmore about like, what do you

(31:36):
make of that relationshipbetween the human in the wild,
like the natural, elemental wildthat you go into with mountains?
Like that's, you know, that'strue climbing in the wild? Like,
what is it that the wild does toour soul? Like, why do we need
that?

Yeah, you know, it's, it's interesting, because,
back in the beginning, it camefrom a place of rejecting the
common place. And what was outthere for me to do that was
uncommon. I was I was, I had yetto identify it. So there were,
there was a time where I thoughtit would be really cool. And I

(32:14):
still have this essence ofbelieving that being a war
correspondent, for instance,really was appealing to me
because it was so on the edge,but you didn't have to pick up a
gun and shoot someone. But youwere filming next to a guy with
a gun who you as well could beshot and killed. And so I fell

(32:37):
in love with the, with the ideaof this and I was really drawn
to this Australian filmmakernamed Neil Davis who filmed the
fall of Saigon and throughthroughout, you know, via the
Vietnam War, and ultimately,literally filmed his own death.

(32:57):
Not before he rolled take camerahe didn't know. It was it was a
coup in in Bangkok, Thailand.
And he had the camera rollingand a bomb went off during the
coup and he his camera just gothrough. And his sound man drags
him away through the shot. And Ijust thought, Wow, man, like
there's a guy who's put himselfinto the, into the mouth of the

(33:21):
lion and was consumed by it. AndI was drawn to something like
that. So and I just started, Istarted mountain climbing. I
started ice climbing, and thatwas it. I was like, ah, I got
it. Okay, here we go. This isthis is cool. I'll do that. And
I love to the people in it. And,and I thought at the time,

(33:42):
innocently, not that therearen't beautiful Brotherhood's
and, and sibling hoods andsisterhoods. within it. I
thought that the mountaineeringcommunity was immune to
bickering or backbiting or, oryou know, but it's, it's just
like any other community, itjust is, they'll screw you over
just like any, like, you knowwhat I mean? So you find your

(34:05):
relationships and, andultimately, coming out the back
end of it all like, is, it's allabout relationships. That's what
I was drawn to. I just wantedintense relationships that made
me feel like I could, likerelate with someone with just
look. Just I that's it. It wasjust I wanted to be connected to

(34:28):
something and I had to rejectthe common place. And it's like,
the people that I've been onthese adventures with are like,
soulmates to me in a way and notthat you it's just like, people
go to war, right? You know, youcould never know what it's like
to raid Omaha Beach on D dayunless you did it. Right. So
that was a that was a little bitof a tangent, but that's what

(34:51):
came out of my mouth. Oh,

Elisabeth Sharp McKett (34:55):
amazing.
Well, that really Oh, that's anamazing tangent. And I love what
you say about The need toconnect with someone else
without words, I agree with you,I think that's what every single
thing comes back to whenever Ido this sort of mathematical
like, let's reduce this. So thecommon denominator, like why do
I write? Why do I teach? Why isparenting so important to me?
Why would I want to marry thisperson? Like, why are
relationships like it'sconnection, like, one level down

(35:15):
from anything is connection,like, in some form. And I think
that one of the things thatseems so appealing about the
world that you live in,especially to me, who is someone
who sort of whose entire all ofmy connection points involved
words, is this idea of thewordless connecting and, and I'm
and my husband, again, who'ssort of much more of your ilk in

(35:36):
terms of like, let's go to thewild, let's just, you know,
sleep under a tree by myselfnext to a bear, I know how to
not get eaten by the bear, whichis not something I trust myself
to be able to know. One of thethings that he has observed that
I've really sort of thought alot about as a woman who
traffics in words, is that hehas observed that with that, the
way that that he has feltvulnerable enough to build a

(35:59):
relationship with other men, isthrough doing kind of courageous
physical things together andtrusting each other wordlessly,
you know, like, he has a swimbuddy for the channel, and they
swim together and presumablydon't talk during this one, but
they keep each other safe,somehow, you know, they're each
other, they've got each other'sback, and they really trust each
other. And that when he sort ofreally knows, or gets, you know,

(36:22):
grows in relation with anotherman, it's through vulnerability,
and it has to be through someshared physical experience that
puts them both at some form ofrisk. And for me, someone who's
not that keen on physical risk,and who feels like, Well, me,
maybe I can raise my shoulder tonever take risks, which is
obviously not the right answer,like emotional risk is, you
know, I'm all for it. But um,but that physical risk, and it's
funny, actually, it's my son isquite, is a little more in my

(36:43):
husband's elk. Like, he wants tosort of climb the tree, and he
wants to sort of get a littleroughed up, where's my daughter,
is very careful and calculatedabout that, but will always, you
know, that is very artistic. SoI see her sort of going more my
way a little bit. But I don'tknow, I think that's so
interesting, because I thinkthat, for me, vulnerability
comes with conversations, like Ifeel very connected to you
through this conversation, andwe'll go on in the future

(37:03):
feeling like Thomas, my friend,you know, because we've shared
this. But it's an interesting,it's a very different kind of
wordless connection to be on amountain with someone or to be
in the cold water with someonewhen you see the biggest seal.
And I think there's somethingabout that, that really, that
really appeals. That's reallythe kind of connection that you
can't know, unless you do what,what you do.

Yeah, and, you know, we all as talking about
the parenting thing, you know, aparent, some parents literally
tried to make it so their childnever gets hurt, physically,
emotionally. And I rememberbeing a new dad and being of the

(37:46):
mind that, like, if my son wantsto try walking along that stone
wall, I'll be close, but I'mgonna let him try it, gosh, darn
it, and if he wipes out, hewipes out I mean, you know, not,
there's a, there's a there's alimit, I suppose to that, but
and, and so, I would like topresume at least that my 23 year

(38:08):
old and 19 year old sons havesome self confidence in who they
are as, as individuals from thatvery basic beginning, like, Hey,
Dad, doesn't need to hold myhand when I do this. And, you
know, and then of course, yousee them have their heart broken
for the first time. And it'slike, oh, you know, you just
want to, like, put them backinto the womb, and, you know,

(38:31):
hold them and net, but but onthe other hand, one of the most
beautiful, painful experiencesis having your heart broken, and
you can't be the woman teachingthat class who lived to 101
about writing your life storyunless you have your

heart broken. Many times. Right,
right. outlook for husbands.
That's a lot of heartbreaks.
It's the human can its birthlove and death. It's you know,
you're right that in each lifejourney, like it's shaped and
marks and calloused and chartedby, by what we love and what we

(39:11):
lose.

You teach that I'm going to try to write Somehow, I
don't know how to do it, anintroduction to this interview
that will just in some way,share the essence of who you are
and what you've done. But it'snot accomplishments that you
want to share with the world. Asa teacher, as a professor, you

(39:36):
help people tell stories,ultimately. So could you just
share with me ever so briefly,what you do, and for whom, and
with I know, you teach a lot ofclasses, but we, we talked about
the fairytale one, if you will.
So we you know, so tell me alittle bit about that.

Yes. So I teach writing for both
Harvard's Extension School andOxford's Department of Community
Education. And within that Iteach all sorts of writing. But
most of my focus is on it Oxfordis on memoir and poetry. And at
Harvard, I've got a new classthis year called mythic memoir.

(40:18):
And I've also got one on NovelWriting. They're wonderful
courses. And they're incrediblestudents. And I actually had a
Eureka today, which is, which isfunny that had happened right
before you and I spoke. But Iwas thinking about this, this
novel that is right here. Andit's so new, and I'm, it's on my
desk, and it's so new. And shenever told me about the ocean.

(40:39):
One of the one of the earliertitles that didn't make the cut
was fairy women. Because in it,there's a character who's who's
Karen, the, you know, the thefair, the Greek ferryman of
souls across the river sticksthat in my book of fairy woman.
And then there are three othercharacters whose voices are
woven together. And one of themis a midwife. And in the motif

(41:02):
of the midwife sort of, pervadesthe whole book, because she's
ferrying you know, babies intolife care on is ferrying souls
out of life. And really, thewhole book is about water, and
about how women in connect tohow humans Connect, although my
book is about women, throughferrying each other, and being

(41:23):
ferried through these differentlife stages, through water, you
know, whatever, whatever youwant to call the water, whatever
metaphor you want to use, it'sreally about women fearing each
other being married. And, and,and that is, in some ways, the
true title, although I think itwould have been confusing in
some ways. But I had this sortof beautiful Eureka earlier
today, after I had thiswonderful, which goes back to

(41:43):
what you and I were talkingabout, with, with connecting
being the underpinnings of whywe are alive and what all of
this is about, I had thiswonderful walk with one of my
friends here, along these cliffsin Cornwall, and she was telling
me these very intimate detailsabout her life, and I was
sharing experiences from my ownlife. And we were kind of
advising each other in the waythat friends do without overtly
giving advice by saying like,one time someone told me this,

(42:05):
or I had this idea, or, youknow, there's this TED talk, and
I had this moment when I camehome, I thought, what I want to
be when I grow up is a fairywoman, I want to help fairy
people to who they need to benext. And that felt like
suddenly the common denominatorthat that's my job right now as
a mother, that I meet mychildren where they are, and I

(42:26):
don't do the labor for you. I'mnot I can't do the labor for
them. But I get to watch andwait and kind of catch them and
help build them up to become asbig and brave and self trusting
as they need to be to do theirown work until they become who
they need to be. And, and thatwill happen many times and you
know, same with my students thatmy job as a teacher is to meet
them where they are and to do mybest to, to, to see them as they

(42:47):
are and to help them see them asthey are to help see what is
what they're trying to do andwhat is beautiful about it and
what you know what leaps theyneed to summon the courage to
take and, and kind of spot thema little bit, knowing I can't
catch them, but that I can kindof be there to try as they take
those leaps. And so I thinkthat's that was anyway, that was

(43:07):
such a wonderful revelationearlier today that Oh, the title
of the book, which I you know,it's always a little sad saying
goodbye to a title that youdon't use because I will not
write another book called fairywoman. But I realized while I
get my seven years that I get tobe the very woman Wow.

That's that's really, really cool. And you're
walking along the cliffs lookingout at the ocean. While this is
this epiphany if you will, well,not an epiphany but the
revelation at least. And

there's an epiphany Yeah,

brought out through having these intense
conversations with people thatwe feel safe with to share our
innermost truths which the worldis brought up. In, you know, no
fault of an individual, butpeople feel so much shame and

(43:56):
fear of sharing the truth of whothey really are, because they
think they're going to berejected. So as a professor as
a, as somebody who's teachingpeople to write, you are
ferrying them at least in the inthe context of a course. Because
when you inspire people to writeisn't writing really the it's

(44:17):
the it's like painting, Isuppose. But it's the truest
form of liberation in a waybecause they're expressing
themselves whether fiction ornonfiction it gets it doesn't
even matter. Does it? matters atall.

I don't think it matters. And I think
that's exactly right. That it isit is a form like it and and
it's the form I happen to know.
But my guess is that that mostforms, whether it's music or
acting, or that you know thatany form of self expression is,
is ultimately doing the samething. But yeah, that in
writing, even if they're writingsomething that is pure fiction,
as you know, my book certainlyis and as a lot of things are, I
think that we have to pour someof what we know about being

(44:51):
human and some of thesensibilities of our journey,
even if not the particulars ofour journey into it. There's a
quote, I think it's WallaceStegner that's in one of his
guides on writing, that wastalking about the idea of
students being told to writewhat they know. And the question
of whether all writing isultimately autobiographical. And

(45:11):
of course, the answer is no, youknow, I've never swum to the
underworld with an infant on myback to rescue my ghost as one
of my characters does. And I, ifI knew there was an underworld,
I still probably would not dothat, you know, I'm not brave in
that way. But, but, but hisquote was that we will always
write the pros, you will havewho we are, that are sensible,
who we are, will always informthe way we write and this quote,

(45:34):
this direct quote was a murdererwill write a murderers prose.
And I love the fact that wecan't escape, writing the prose
of you know, that you willalways write the prose of
someone who's no mountains,whatever you write, even if you
write, you know, a craft guide,a children's book, a play about,
you know, two old friendshanging out in the pub, like you

(45:55):
will write the pros of havingclimbed mountains and known them
intimately. And I think that Iwill always write the pros and
the poems of the things that Ihave known intimately. And I
think that's part of my work asa teacher is to help my students
kind of understand and see andclaim what it is that they know
intimately and trust that thatis legitimate, and that that can
be the center of the storiesthat they tell. And they're not

(46:17):
starting from scratch.

Wow, yeah. That's it just to claim what is
rightfully yours, or the truthin the, in the, the uniqueness
of, of your own self, that'sreally quite beautiful.

I think that's it, though, I think
that's really what we all kindof move toward, in life in some
form. And I think that'sultimately what we seek from our
teachers is some understandingor validation of that. And I
think that's probably the mostuseful advice we can offer those
younger than us, I'm at the agewhere I've sort of, I still seek

(47:00):
advice from everyone I meet,because I feel like everyone is
a teacher. And also, I recognizethat I'm at an age where I need
to accept my mastery of somethings. And except that I'm a
teacher myself. I have researchassistants and I, it took me a
while to learn how to kind oflead them appropriately and I'm
learning, but ultimately, the,you know, the question of how do
we pass on wisdom comes up. AndI think that that's ultimately
what we do that, you know,advice is really a very little

(47:22):
use in most cases, but that ifwe can sort of help people see,
I mean, really, that's we're alltricksters in that way. We all
have to kind of hold a mirrorto, to those who look up to us
and see and let them seethemselves more accurately, and
maybe throw a few stones intotheir path so that they'll have
to readjust to the right path, Ithink,

right, right.
Okay, so in our closing minutes,and we can continue this
conversation for the rest of mylife that I know you, and I want
to. But short term, I'm going todo a little mini course with

(48:01):
you, I guess you're gonna kindof Oh, I've been saying for
years, I'm writing a book. And Iwill just shut up now about it.
Because I'm not really anycloser, I have hundreds of more
pages. But the it's an amoeba,it's just drifting outwardly.
You were going to do a little,you're going to kind of point

(48:25):
help me, you're going to be thewall I bounce off of to get me
back down the center of thehallway, in essence. And so
what's my first assignment? WhatWhat am I? What do I need to do?

Yes, the first assignment. And I also
think that there's a lot to besaid about how long it takes to
conceive of the idea of a book,I often feel that, that I'll
tell my writers that it's okayto think slowly. And write fast
and revise slowly. Because Ithink we sometimes think that
if, you know, if we write tooquickly, it's not any good. But

(49:01):
think slowly, revise slowly,then the writing can be as fast
as it needs to be. When I waswriting my grandmother's
biography, I had a writingmentor who I met one day in May,
who asked what I was working on,I said, I'm trying to figure out
how to write this biography ofmy grandfather. And then a year
later, I saw him again, and hesaid, so what are you writing?
And I said, I'm trying to figureout how to write this biography.
It's like, so you've notprogressed at all have you? But

(49:22):
it took a few years to get thesame answer. So. So I think that
every bit of thinking andcircling you've done about this
project, I would say that thatis writing, you've been thinking
about it, you've been sort ofjust stating it. And so what I
would say first, your firstassignment, the first three
here, your first threeassignments, and then we'll and
then we'll talk shop about whatcomes from it. So the first

(49:45):
assignment is, is we're gonnawe're gonna have you write a
mythic memoir. And all thatmeans is just taking a story
from your life, and using mythsand fairy tales to help
structure it and also to, if youwish, use their kind of themes
and motifs and images to To makeit a story that, that that
touches a lot of people becausethey recognize, you know, those

(50:05):
are democratic stories, they,they, we all kind of claim them
so they can help make anindividual life story sort of
touch more people a littlebigger. So your first assignment
is to think of an era from yourlife where something changed,
that is a distinct beginning anda distinct end. So it could be
the moment you realize youwanted to climb mountains, to
the top of your first mountain,or it could be when you came

(50:27):
down from your first mountainand thought, and had to decide
if you wanted to climb anotherone, but some era where some
value in your life or somecertainty was in question to
change, and just write a shortparagraph summary of the era of
your life that you think youwant to focus on. So that's
assignment one. And assignmenttwo is to alongside that, write

(50:48):
a short one paragraph synopsisof a myth or a fairy tale that
you think might offer someguidance or illumination to this
era. And I would just firstthought that thought, see what
calls to you It could havesomething to do with mountains
and snow, it could be just astory, you remember really
appreciating at some point inyour life, or it could be
something that sort of you comeupon, but so have those two

(51:12):
stories. So that's assignment,that's assignment one and two.
And then from there, what Iwould like you to do is write
with how we can do this. Okay, Ithink that the next one will be
to write the beginning of thatstory. And the end of that

(51:33):
story, just about one page,short, a paragraph, two
paragraphs, one page, or as muchas you want to write on where
the story begins and emphasizeas much as you can. What what I
think of is shimmering imagesfrom the book by Lisa Dale
Norton, just moments of sensorymoments that you remember. So
beginning with sensory images,your launch, and then write your

(51:55):
landing with sensory images. Andthen if you have it in you write
a moment about what you thinkthe turning point is the scene
where that sort of twists usfrom where we're going to where
we land. It's a start with theskeleton of the two summaries,
and that kind of triangle ofbeginning climax and end and
then send those to me, and thenwe'll go from there to finish

(52:17):
the first draft.

That sounds awesome. I'm all in and you have
a heart. Stop right now. Andyou've gone a minute over. So
I'm gonna. You're amazing.

Thank you. You
are amazing. This has been sucha pleasure. And I just feel we
could, we could talk for hoursand I hope that we continue to
so thank you so much.

Well, I probably could have talked a lot longer.
She is absolutely fascinating.
But Professor sharp Makita hasgiven me an assignment and I
need to get to work. No moreexcuses. I will report back soon
on my progress. And believe me,I do not want my first class at
Harvard or Oxford to come inanything less than an 'A' so

(53:09):
there you have it.

But, to know how i

For more informati n about Elizabeth Sharpe McKenna
or to sign up for her newslettercalled poetry for strangers, ple
se visit Elizabeth Share mckenna.com. She is a frequ
nt public speaker on topics relaed to focusing or distilling a p
rsonal organizationalpurpose building group credo al

(53:46):
forms of writing including persnal business professional p
etry, publishing editing applictions, on lifestyle arch
tectures, specially in trms of putting the essential
nd or creative things at theenter.

(54:11):
Thank you to the Woods Brothersand their management for the use
of their song happiness Jonesfor our theme song here on the
HQ, publicist Kevin Calabro forhelping make it all happen. If
you'd like a free downloadablePDF of the happiness quotient,
of course in happiness, visitme@patreon.com slash the

(54:32):
happiness quotient. For moreinformation about me to inquire
about personal coaching orpublic speaking in person or
virtually, please visit ice openproductions calm and of course,
always you can write me anytimeTom dot Dharma dot Pollard at
gmail. Remember that which wemost want to find can be

(54:54):
discovered in the place where weleast want to look and the
deeper and darker the well. thebrighter the light we will
discover. Don't curse the darkcloud the rain inside may very
well turn your garden green.
Thank you for visiting thehappiness quotient. I will see
you all real soon.

All those words I wrote
in the storm, that rocked my bot. I was stuck in my throat whe
I was hap and all thoseand next thing I'm thinking

(55:46):
I might as well change my nameto happiness jone Happiness

(56:10):
happy happI'm not sick I'm not alone yeah
we all got it Happines JonesHappy, Happy. Happy. Happy.

(56:37):
Happy.
Happy.

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