April 13, 2025 • 30 mins
Luis Marrero, CEO of the Boston Institute for Meaningful Purpose, reveals how our deeply held unconscious beliefs about human nature prevent workplace engagement from improving despite decades of research and initiatives.
• Working with Transaction Analysis Psychology within major companies like Disney and DEC before founding the Boston Institute in 1986
• Distinguishing between meaning (about being) and purpose (about doing) - purpose fulfills meaning
• Explaining why workplace engagement statistics haven't improved in 20 years despite abundant knowledge
• Tracing how historical figures like Machiavelli and Adam Smith embedded harmful assumptions about human nature into organizational structures
• Contrasting Theory X management (assuming employees are lazy and untrustworthy) with meaningful purpose psychology
• Highlighting the importance of organizations leading with the social component before technical and business components
• Describing the "Cassandra Effect" - having answers but being unable to see or believe them
• Introducing the meaning analysis framework that helps identify quality of meanings through attribution, intelligence, health, harmony, and mindfulness
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome back for another episode of the Happy at
Work podcast with Laura, tessaand Michael.
Each week, we have thoughtfulconversations with leaders,
founders and authors abouthappiness at work.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation.
Enjoy the show.
Welcome to the Happy at Workpodcast.
(00:42):
Today, we're very excited tohave our guest, Luis Marrero,
who is the CEO of the BostonInstitute for Meaningful Purpose
.
Luis, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Thank you for bringing me on.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
We would love to hear a little bit about your
background.
Can you tell us about yourcareer journey, your path, and
how did you end up as being theCEO of the Boston Institute for
Meaningful Purpose?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Sure.
So I was born and raised inPuerto Rico, but I've lived most
of my life in the continent.
In terms of education, I wentto a Catholic university called
Siena Heights University inMichigan.
I majored in history, which Ihave leveraged very well and has
helped me very much in mycareer, and I did my master's
(01:25):
program also at the Universityof Puerto Rico, but it was in
human resource management.
So I did my thesis intransaction analysis psychology.
So after that, for many years,I was an organization
development transaction analyst,if you will, and I practiced
transaction analysis withincompanies.
So I've worked for brandcompanies like the Disney
company, the former DEC I don'tknow if you remember a famous
(01:49):
DEC from years ago I spent a lotof years with DEC.
Yse Business Psychologist wasthe last company I worked for as
an employee and then after thatI went on my own.
Excuse me, but I founded theAustin Institute back in 1986.
And since then we've been doingstudies and research on this
concept of meaningful purposepsychology.
(02:09):
I wrote my first book back in2013.
The Path to a MeaningfulPurpose, and as co-author, I was
going to call it Co-author ofthe End of Pursuit.
We wrote the second book, whichis Meaningful Purpose, also
expanding into theory, if youwill, and I'm working on my
third book now, meaning Anticsand the Cassandra Effect, which
(02:32):
I hope to publish in the nextyear, sometime next year.
That's a work in progress, sothat's a little bit of
background about myself.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
So, luis, first of all, incredibly impressive.
So Luis, first of all,incredibly impressive, and it's
(03:07):
really fascinating to hear thatyou got your master's in HR,
meaningfulness and purpose andthese other topics that are
really relevant today,especially post-pandemic.
I think you hear more and morecompanies talking about the
importance of purpose andmeaningfulness of work and these
types of themes, but what doesit mean to you in the work that
you do at the Boston Institutefor Meaningful Purpose?
What does that mean?
(03:29):
To have purpose, to havepurpose at work.
What does that look like?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
What we do is to help people understand the role that
meaning plays in behavior.
So it's not only about meaningof life, it's daily interactions
with people, like, if you know,like I'm talking to you, we're
exchanging meanings, we're goingback and forth in terms of
meaning.
So there's a semantic component, there's also that relational
component.
So what we do is we study thequality of that meaning to be
(03:57):
able to see what kind of impactdoes it have, and is it positive
, negative, does it lead to goodends?
Bad ends, as the case may beeffective, ineffective.
So we help people understand.
I am living my life as what ismy meaning.
Couples understand we're livingour marriage as what is its
meaning.
We help companies understandwe're practicing our leadership
(04:20):
practices and managementpractices as what is our meaning
, and then to be able tounderstand why the consequences.
So if you don't like theconsequence, you go back to the
meaning to say, hey, okay,viktor Frankl defined that
meaning as what is meant.
So what is your meaning that isleading to this particular end?
So people then can evaluate thequality and then make decisions
(04:42):
whether they want to improvethe outcomes by changing the
meaning.
To keep it simple.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
I love that and I have a question about the
intersection of meaningfulpurpose and engagement at work.
And when I look at the datafrom Gallup, when you look at
the chart that shows who'sengaged, who's not engaged,
who's actively disengaged, thenumbers really haven't moved
since they started tracking thedata.
It's been about, you know,we're coming on like two decades
(05:08):
now, but we know all thisinformation, all these research
studies do this.
Try that.
You know this actually moveskey metrics.
Why isn't the needle moving?
Speaker 3 (05:17):
This is where history comes in.
To partially answer yourquestion in part.
To partially answer yourquestion.
What has happened was people inthe past, like in Machiavelli,
for instance, not that heinvented, he codified the fact
that you could be a narcissistand you needed to be a
narcissist in order to survive.
I don't know if you read thePrince, but that's pretty much
(05:40):
set a stage in terms of how tolead, how to manage.
So if you're a monarchy inEurope and you're reading
Machiavelli, even though a lotof people criticize them, they
were pretty much saying, yeah,this is the way to govern.
So then what kind of laws wouldyou enact in order to deal with
this advice that the prince isproviding?
Machiavelli is providing?
(06:00):
So it did have an influence inleadership and management
thinking.
It creates structures ofmanagement and leadership in
governments and organizations.
Another one could be Adam Smith.
Back in 1776.
He was the first one to say it,but he codified it.
People are lazy.
So if people are lazy and youhave to be a narcissist, how
does that affect organizationalbehavior, how we structure, how
(06:24):
we design things?
You have an Adam Smith not AdamSmith, but the theory of
evolution, you know, coming outand saying some people are
better than others and you havethis ranking thing.
That happens and it giveslicense to people like Adolf
Hitler to, oh, kill people justbecause they're less than.
But all that kind of thinkingjust to mention three names it
(06:45):
all becomes part of the psycheof how people are thinking about
how to govern, how to lead, howto do things, and it's at a
very deep, unconscious level.
People are not even aware thatit's influencing them.
But a lot of organizationaltheory and design is based on
the wrong assumptions and, as aresult, the structures, the
systems, for instance, aredesigned in a way to practice
(07:08):
this corrupt, incorrect meaningsabout what people are all about
and how you manage a company.
Let me give you one specificexample, which I think is one of
the most insulting things youcan do to a human being.
Typically, I do this exercisewith people and I ask them the
question what do you do toincent people to?
You know, create conditionswhere people can be their best,
and usually what happens is thetype of responses that we'll
(07:30):
hear is well, we need tomotivate them.
Now think about this If I saythat I have to motivate you,
what is my meaning about you?
What opinion do I have aboutyou?
You're not motivated, that'sright.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
I You're not motivated.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
You're lazy, I have to do something on your behalf.
You see, that's part of howorganizations are built, that I
have to have structures whereyou have people on the top
telling, motivating people,because they're lazy.
They might say it that way, butthat's pretty much the
underlying force.
So in logotheliology, what wehave discovered is that you can
(08:02):
bring positive psychology, youcan bring good concepts to bear
and present them to people, butthere's this other force that is
countering it.
We call it meaning antics.
It's the antics to somethingpositive.
So what we do is to help peoplesee what is the content of those
meanings, where they came from,so that they can.
Then you cannot erase it.
You cannot erase things fromyour mind, but you can take away
(08:24):
the power of the meaning, thatsignificance, that opinion, that
view, that perspective, thatmindset, so that you can give
more force to what is positiveand constructive.
So until people are aware thatthey're operating on their wrong
meanings, corrupt meanings,incorrect meanings, incomplete
meanings, they will continue tobehave the way they're doing and
(08:44):
then managing the way thatthey're managing.
So you have to remove stuff inorder to put something in place
that is better.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
So can I conclude that let's say that I'm of this
mindset that you shared.
Like Adam Smith, people arenaturally lazy and then when I
get all these different things Ican do to increase engagement
in the workplace, I don't reallytake it very seriously because
I say, well, my core people arelazy, so this stuff isn't going
to work, so why bother trying it?
(09:11):
Is that what we're?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
hearing.
Yeah, just look at the pressabout companies like Amazon or
Boeing recently, and when youread about it and you hear the
description, what leaders aresaying they're going back to
theory X is well and alive inmany companies and I say all of
them.
But theory X is very well andalive, this operating
assumptions about how to leadpeople, what people are, are
(09:34):
still embedded in the thinkingof many people, many leaders,
which prevents them then, ofcourse, to balance appropriately
the social, the technical andthe business to allow for human
thriving.
And in those three components,our bias is that the social
component is first among equals.
It should be leading thetechnical and the business
(09:56):
components.
So I'll leave it at that up tothis point.
Any other questions then?
I'll leave it at that up tothis point.
Any other questions that I'llbe happy to?
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (10:01):
I would love to follow up, because you talked
about Theory X and kind of whatAmazon is doing.
Can you speak a little bit moreabout what you mean by that?
Because just for our listenersto really understand what is
your premise, you know as to howAmazon maybe is are treating
their people versus what wouldbe the ideal state that we would
(10:23):
see if a company was reallyleading with that social
component versus business andtechnical.
What would that look like?
Speaker 3 (10:31):
What I would say go to the press and look at their
own words to see what's notworking, pretty much.
And theory X is employees canbe trusted.
They're lazy all these thingsthat we got from people in the
past, frederick Taylor typephilosophy, even though it has
material, but it's still present, just to mention Darwin and
some of the others.
The idea is, this is where logoscriptology comes in, which
(10:55):
means, then, that I need toreplace the current meaning in
view that I have of people theattributions I'm making about
employees, for instance, or theattributions I'm making about
what is a leader or the role ofthe leader and then I have to
replace it with somethingdifferent.
So the idea would be like, forinstance, this is second wave
organization development and,according to low ethereality,
(11:15):
you would decide.
First of all, you would need toeducate people around what is
meaningful and what is notmeaningful.
Positive psychology contributesa lot to that, by the way,
which is I'm a strong fan ofpositive psychology.
So what you would do is youwould train your leaders to
think about what is the currentnarrative, the plot and the
(11:35):
script in this company when wetalk about employees, which is
an expression of the opinionsthat we have to them Like, for
instance, we have to controlthem, sort of a language sort of
thing.
So if it was a different andmore positive language, what
would that script look like?
So it's about re-scripting andre-plotting what's happening.
So you would have then teachyour leaders not only teach them
, but they need to first.
(11:57):
Let me say this also beforethat something that is different
about lovoteliology from othersciences this is lovoteliology
is not something that you comeprimarily to learn to do
something with it.
Lovoteliology you learn to liveit, to live it, practice it in
your life first.
Once you remove the log fromyour eye, you can see much more
(12:17):
clearly.
Then you can help other people.
So low teleology starts withhelping people first of all
understand themselves, see whatworks, it's not working, what is
the role of meaning there andhow can they clean up their
meaning so that they can dosomething positive.
So it starts with that.
First me applying it to myself.
Versus I start, you know, doingthings with other people.
So that's the starting point,but versus I start doing things
(12:38):
with other people.
So that's the starting point.
But if you apply it to acompany, just like quality that
everybody has to learn it,everybody will have to learn
meaningful purpose psychology,and in essence it is.
What does it mean to be human?
What is the meaning of life?
What makes life meaningful?
And then not based on what todo, it's what to be.
The do will follow later.
Meaning is about being, purposeabout doing.
The role of purpose is tofulfill meanings.
(13:00):
So the training is you educatepeople around meaningful purpose
psychology, help them gothrough their own individual
journey through workshops andlaboratories and, once they have
some reasonable level oflucidity, the task is to say
okay, as a leader, what kind ofan experience do I want the
employees to have with me?
Positive experience.
What does that look like?
Say, okay, as a leader, whatkind of an experience do I want
the employees to have with me?
Positive experience.
What does that look like?
(13:21):
What would I be saying differentfrom what I'm saying today?
What would I be thinkingdifferently?
What would I be feelingdifferently?
Even in conflict, where Idevelop a new narrative, a new
language, positive language,constructive language.
The same thing then happenswith employees.
If we're going to get along, ifwe're going to get along with
leadership, if we're going toget along, provide a great
(13:43):
service to our clients, whatwould I be saying and a company
who's done a great job at thisis Disney.
I worked for Disney for many,many years.
Disney does an excellent jobaround that.
They have pretty much down patthat we're here to create
conditions where, for the client, that gets us happy.
So what would I be saying?
How would I be behaving?
What's the script?
So then, the next level is, if Iwant employees to feel this way
(14:06):
in the company and to have thisnarrative about the experience
of working in the company, whatkinds of systems do I need to
create?
What processes, okay, whattechnologies will create
conditions where I'm going tomake that employee smile, come
to work with energy, enthusiasm?
We call them anima.
I'm not talking about Carl Jung, I'm talking anima from a
philosophical point of view,that I have a life force that
(14:27):
brings me to work based on themeaning that I'm giving to what
works means.
So leadership and employeeswork in creating systems,
organizations that areuser-friendly for the user, the
employee, and facilitates what,providing service to the guests
and to one another.
So another measure would bewhat is the experience that I
(14:48):
want the guests to have?
I want the guests to be happy,to be satisfied.
So what is the narrative story.
What are the technologies, thesystem, the touch points that
I'm having with that client?
What do they need to do so thatthe client feels this positive
experience, have this positiveexperience, and then that leads
to business results.
And that's where the cash comesin when you do a very good job.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
So I mean this is so fascinating to me because in a
different lane but it sounds sosimilar a colleague and I wrote
a book around branding.
But it sounds so similar Acolleague and I wrote a book
around branding.
Really, the premise of the bookis the operationalizing of
brand values.
(15:27):
That externally, if you'reespousing certain values about
your company and what you standfor and many times this is done
for marketing purposes but ifyou are a company that really
expresses a certain level ofvalues, that if you're not
operationalizing those expressesa certain level of values, that
if you're not operationalizingthose values internally within
the organization, by the way youtreat people by the type of
leadership that you'reexhibiting, by the processes and
structures.
(15:47):
And I really love that you'rebringing that particular piece
up, because a lot of timespeople think it's just about the
leaders and don't understandthat the structures and the
infrastructure also plays suchan important role in making sure
that that actually getsoperationalized through a
company that if you're not doingthose things then you are
incredibly inauthenticessentially as a company.
(16:08):
And that in this day and age,with such an aware younger
generation that's been dealing,you know, that's hypercognitive,
that deals with all sorts oftypes of information.
You know that's hypercognitive,that deals with all sorts of
types of information.
You know, and can process itvery, very quickly, that they
see through that very, very fastas well.
And so it's kind of interestingthe way you're describing it,
(16:29):
because I almost feel like we'reat this moment in time, because
of massive amounts of data andinformation, the way that we
process that.
It almost comes across moreclearly if you don't have that
authentic meaningfulness orpurpose in the way that you're
working with others, that thatgets recognized more readily
than perhaps it would have 50years ago in the workplace.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Hoy, you mentioned the genuineness and it goes back
to Michael's original questionin terms of what is it that's
preventing this?
And one of the big mistakesthat a lot of consulting firms
do and people in this line ofbusiness is the emphasis on the
to-do.
Here's a checklist, here's theprocess you need to follow.
The to-do is purposeful.
It's the feel of competenciesand skills and abilities and how
(17:15):
to make things happen Whilemeaning, which, in purpose,
can't happen without a meaning.
But the meaning is that faultthe checklist.
In order for us to be much moreprofitable, we have to do these
things.
You have to treat people thisway, so it becomes mechanical.
That's different from when itcomes from the ethos.
Okay, that you as a person areprincipled.
(17:38):
You have this very strongbelief that human beings mean
something, that, like Francosaid, you should not approach
people from utility perspectivebut from a dignity perspective,
and that they have potential andwhen you release that potential
, it can do great things foreverybody.
So that's why we talk about,you know, the ethos leads to the
anima, to the ergos.
The ergos is where you actuallyconduct yourself in an ethical
(18:00):
way, but it's because you havethose meanings.
So the authentic thing that youmentioned is very critical, but
it has to come from the heart,where you really truly, truly,
truly believe that people dodeserve to be treated with
dignity and respect, and I'mgoing to create and help create
systems and processes andstandards where we create this
machine, okay, the system wherewe bring the best of everybody
(18:23):
to serve, and that's at theheart of our work.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yeah, what I love is the opera, how you can bring to
life these ideas.
And when you bring up the ideaabout Disney and you talk about
dignity and respect, what popsup for me is when I went to
Disney World the first time inOrlando, florida, I remember all
the workers that were there.
They're all smiling, they'reall happy and they called them
(18:46):
Imagineers.
And when I look back at thatname now, it says so much it's
fun, it's respectful, it saysthat you have value because
you're an engineer and that's animportant job and it makes
imagination really important aswell.
And I think just that one wordbrings in the dignity and
(19:07):
respect that you're talkingabout.
And I'd love to know for someonewho's willing to change and
maybe they're a little bit likewow, this is pretty heavy stuff
that Luis is talking about.
How do I bring this into thereal world?
Like, how do I baby step this?
What's one or two things thatyou think anyone could just give
it a try just to see the magicof what you're talking about?
(19:30):
What are some baby steps peoplecould do right now?
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Well, I have a bias in the fundamentals, know the
fundamentals of meaningfulpurpose, psychology and, in
particular, you know what is themeaning and what is the role
that meaning plays in my life.
So a big step might be I amliving my life, as is what it's
meaning, and we have tools, andyou know, to help people through
that process.
But it's basically saying, ifsomething is going well for me,
(19:56):
what is it that is contributingto that?
And if you understand thefactors of the construct which
we don't have a lot of time, butthere's actual those factors
can help you answer some basicquestions that will tell you,
for instance, what is thequality of that meaning.
It explains why I'm having apositive result or not having a
positive result.
So, for instance, one of themis an attribution.
(20:17):
You know, one of the factors isattribution.
So what I'm attributing is trueabout my wife or my my, you
know or my son, or my employee,or my boss, or, as the case may
be, I am going to behaveconsistently with that
attribution that I've made ofthat person.
So then we also have what iscalled meaning quality.
What is the quality of thatmeaning?
Is it intelligent?
(20:38):
And when I say intelligent,it's a difference between a fact
, an empirical fact, and anopinion.
There's an intelligence tomeaning.
So we help people explore thequality of those meanings.
That meaning also has anotherquality component, which is
called health.
It's a prosocial or antisocial,and we have tools that help
people pretty much discover that.
We also have another componentof quality of a meaning, which
(20:59):
is harmony Do I have cognitivedissonance or am I centered and
all my thoughts are harmonious?
And cooperation.
You know the factors arecooperating to a particular end.
And then mindfulness.
You know being aware.
Am I aware of what's happeninginternally and externally?
So when people learn thosetools, they have much more,
(21:20):
let's say, control of andawareness of what's really
happening inside of me, what ishappening outside of me and how
to address the situation muchmore appropriately.
So we call it meaning analysis.
That leads to insight, and thatinsight then helps you to
contrast the current statusagainst an ideal state.
And then the task is how do Iclose the gaps?
(21:40):
By using the factors of themeaning, to be very precise, of
what needs to be changed, and wehave had fantastic results as a
result of that.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
So it sounds like, luis, we have to read your books
, because that would helpclarify a lot of these, my blogs
too, and your blogs, but I knowyou're working on a third book
and you spoke about it at thevery top of the to read your
books, because that would helpclarify a lot of these my blogs
too, and your blogs.
But I know you're working on athird book and you spoke about
it at the very top of thepodcast, which in your reference
, the Cassandra effect.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhat that is, because I had not
heard that before you mentionedit at the top of the podcast.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Yeah, well, meaningful purpose psychology
have said this, you know startedbecause of the paradox that
people, you know, a worlddoesn't suffer.
People don't suffer for a lackof answers.
The answers are there.
So the Cassandra effect comesagain from Greek mythology and
it's about this dude, apollos,this god who comes down from
Olympus and he's the god ofprophecy and other gifts.
(22:33):
And he goes to this city calledTroy and he goes to the royal
court as a human, you know, ahuman form, goes to the royal
court and meets with the kingand the queen and he notices a
very beautiful princess by thename of Cassandra and he starts
to engage with her and she'svery bright and intelligent and
talented and he's reallyimpressed with Cassandra.
So he gives her the gift oftruth that she'll be able to say
(22:56):
the truth, but not only thatshe'll be able to see into the
future, she'll be able toprophesy and see the truth of
what's coming in the future.
So he gives her that gift.
But then he had a hidden agendaand he starts making
advancements and she says whoa,whoa, whoa, wait a minute, I'm a
virtuous woman, I'm not goingto go there.
So he gets angry at her and hecurses her and the curse is and
(23:19):
I cannot take away from you thegift of saying the truth in
prophecy but I'm going to curseyou with the curse that nobody's
going to believe what you say,they will not believe your truth
, and he goes away huffing andpuffing.
So what happens?
Being a prophet, she can seeinto the future and she tells
her parents the Greeks areplotting against us, but nobody
believes her.
And she says the Greeks arecoming, but nobody believes her.
(23:43):
The Greeks build this horse andthere are soldiers inside and
Achilles is there and to comeinto the city.
If you allow them in, they'regoing to destroy us and you know
the rest of the story.
Eventually she dies, also aspart of the sad story.
So the Cassandra paradox is thefact that people have answers
before them, but they're notknowledge.
And the curse the effect is thecurse, which is not only on
(24:05):
Cassandra, not being a peopleunbeliever is the fact that the
people of Troia also curse.
Where the inability andunwillingness to be able to see
reality and truth, as it is someaningful, purpose psychology.
What it does is to help peoplework out the curse and to claim
their birthright that was takenaway from their childhood by
(24:29):
being given trash that reallydoesn't reflect who they are and
their potential and their power.
Just like we inheritedMachiavellian thinking and
narcissism.
And you know Charles Darwinphilosophy and so forth.
So I could keep on going thelist of historical figures that
help shape what we callorganizational theory and
leadership theory.
But that's what we do is tohelp people pretty much
(24:51):
understand.
How am I preventing myself fromthriving?
And many times they can't see.
They can't see.
So our task is to help them see, to remove again the log so
they can see much more clearlyand not I can see clearly.
Then I can start helping people.
Before that, we don't encouragethat people you know, to help
people unless you have cleanyour own act, because you can do
harm and damage, especially ifyou're a therapist type of thing
(25:12):
I'm talking here.
You know some roles more thanmore than not.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
It's up, it's.
It's fascinating just becauseyou're describing that, and I
kind of feel like we're having acassandra effect within our
society.
We are we are your way.
Things are happening right infront of our eyes and we're
either choosing not to see it orwe're just not really believing
what we're seeing, um, and whatit is but it's because it's
because of low quality meaning.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
So go ahead, aiko, I'm sorry, I was just saying.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
I think I'm getting the full circle for our
listeners on why is the needlenot moving on engagement since
they started measuring itapproximately 20 years ago, and
it sounds like it's theCassandra effect on some
leadership because they're notbelieving that these things work
.
And I might argue that the lazyones aren't the workers, it's
(26:05):
the leaders that are too lazy tochange and look at the good
answers that are in front ofthem and I'm curious what you
think about that.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
I think it's all of the above, all of us in
particular, including myself.
I know that I have biases.
I know that I have biases.
I know that I have blind spots.
That's why, my first book, Isort of talk about the theory,
but I talk about being a guineapig and observing myself as I
learn this stuff and apply it tomyself.
And the latter part of eachchapter I'm reporting how, when
I implemented this or appliedthis.
(26:34):
This is how it affected me.
So I confess that I'mincomplete, I confess that I
have faults, but that's part ofthe journey.
You know where you're actuallyhaving the integrity to confront
yourself and look at thecontent of your system, your
values, and that's just thequestion am I really living up
to them too?
You know, is my public andprivate identity matching pretty
(26:59):
much, or am I to differentpeople, what I feel inside and
how I'm projecting myselfoutside, that perspective of
engagement where people areresisting engaging in the
company because what theyattribute is being attributed
about them, how the beliefsystem that people cannot be
trusted, the value system I'mtalking about here, factors of
(27:23):
the meaning construct, the valuesystem, which is not
necessarily ethical system, youknow, in regards to opinion,
that they have to people.
Values is what allows us toself-regulate, by the way, when
the attributions, the beliefsystems and the value systems
are incomplete or corrupt, whatit does is it has an effect on
another factor, which is feelinghow I feel about working here,
(27:45):
how do I feel about working here?
And an assister of feeling.
Another factor of the constructis attitudes, and attitudes I
move away from something or moveclose to something.
Okay, so you know the continuumof an attitude.
So attitudes is what determineshow committed people are going
to be, how engaged they're goingto be, because of how they feel
.
And that they feel and havethat attitude because what
(28:07):
that's being attributed aboutthem, the belief system, and
then the values that they areexperiencing.
So my values are being violatedbecause of my sense of fairness
.
Let's say my values are beingviolated because of my sense of
fairness.
Let's say, and they have thisopinion that I have to be
managed, that I need to bemotivated, because they have
this opinion of me.
And again, like we say, go tothe press and look at some of
(28:31):
these companies that have beenhaving scandals recently and
you'll see the script.
That is the way we think aboutemployees and that's why the
engagement remains stubborn, andit will remain stubborn until
we break the Cassandra effect.
Speaker 4 (28:43):
Wow, this has been and I hope this doesn't come
across trite, but this has beenone of the most meaningful
podcast discussions we've had ina really long time.
Louise, thank you so much.
I could listen to you all day.
I'm definitely going topurchase your books, but I think
what the aha for me throughoutthis conversation was even just
(29:08):
simplifying that, and I hope Iget this right.
Meaning is about being, butpurpose is about doing right.
So it's almost like the actionarm of meaning, of having
meaningfulness, is acting withpurpose.
So I feel like that is soclarifying for me and it just,
of course, I'm now recallingevery working experience I've
(29:30):
ever had and every boss I'veever encountered and saying,
nope, they didn't have thatmeaning.
So this has been an amazinghalf hour.
Thank you so much for joiningus and I hope that you'll come
back, especially after youpublish your third book, and
tell us more about the CassandraEffect.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Thank you, luis, and thank you for listening in
everyone, and we'll see you forour next episode.
Take care everybody.
Next episode Take careeverybody.
We hope you've enjoyed thisepisode.
If you'd like to hear futureepisodes, be sure to subscribe
to the Happy at Work podcast andleave us a review with your
thoughts.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Are you interested in speaking on a future episode or
want to collaborate with us?
Let us know.
You can send us an email atadmin at happyatworkpodcastcom.
And, lastly, follow us onLinkedIn or Twitter for even
more happiness.
See you soon.
Welcome back for another episode of the Happy at
Work podcast with Laura, tessaand Michael.
Each week, we have thoughtfulconversations with leaders,
founders and authors abouthappiness at work.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation.
Enjoy the show.
Welcome to the Happy at Workpodcast.
(00:42):
Today, we're very excited tohave our guest, Luis Marrero,
who is the CEO of the BostonInstitute for Meaningful Purpose
.
Luis, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Thank you for bringing me on.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
We would love to hear a little bit about your
background.
Can you tell us about yourcareer journey, your path, and
how did you end up as being theCEO of the Boston Institute for
Meaningful Purpose?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Sure.
So I was born and raised inPuerto Rico, but I've lived most
of my life in the continent.
In terms of education, I wentto a Catholic university called
Siena Heights University inMichigan.
I majored in history, which Ihave leveraged very well and has
helped me very much in mycareer, and I did my master's
(01:25):
program also at the Universityof Puerto Rico, but it was in
human resource management.
So I did my thesis intransaction analysis psychology.
So after that, for many years,I was an organization
development transaction analyst,if you will, and I practiced
transaction analysis withincompanies.
So I've worked for brandcompanies like the Disney
company, the former DEC I don'tknow if you remember a famous
(01:49):
DEC from years ago I spent a lotof years with DEC.
Yse Business Psychologist wasthe last company I worked for as
an employee and then after thatI went on my own.
Excuse me, but I founded theAustin Institute back in 1986.
And since then we've been doingstudies and research on this
concept of meaningful purposepsychology.
(02:09):
I wrote my first book back in2013.
The Path to a MeaningfulPurpose, and as co-author, I was
going to call it Co-author ofthe End of Pursuit.
We wrote the second book, whichis Meaningful Purpose, also
expanding into theory, if youwill, and I'm working on my
third book now, meaning Anticsand the Cassandra Effect, which
(02:32):
I hope to publish in the nextyear, sometime next year.
That's a work in progress, sothat's a little bit of
background about myself.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
So, luis, first of all, incredibly impressive.
So Luis, first of all,incredibly impressive, and it's
(03:07):
really fascinating to hear thatyou got your master's in HR,
meaningfulness and purpose andthese other topics that are
really relevant today,especially post-pandemic.
I think you hear more and morecompanies talking about the
importance of purpose andmeaningfulness of work and these
types of themes, but what doesit mean to you in the work that
you do at the Boston Institutefor Meaningful Purpose?
What does that mean?
(03:29):
To have purpose, to havepurpose at work.
What does that look like?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
What we do is to help people understand the role that
meaning plays in behavior.
So it's not only about meaningof life, it's daily interactions
with people, like, if you know,like I'm talking to you, we're
exchanging meanings, we're goingback and forth in terms of
meaning.
So there's a semantic component, there's also that relational
component.
So what we do is we study thequality of that meaning to be
(03:57):
able to see what kind of impactdoes it have, and is it positive
, negative, does it lead to goodends?
Bad ends, as the case may beeffective, ineffective.
So we help people understand.
I am living my life as what ismy meaning.
Couples understand we're livingour marriage as what is its
meaning.
We help companies understandwe're practicing our leadership
(04:20):
practices and managementpractices as what is our meaning
, and then to be able tounderstand why the consequences.
So if you don't like theconsequence, you go back to the
meaning to say, hey, okay,viktor Frankl defined that
meaning as what is meant.
So what is your meaning that isleading to this particular end?
So people then can evaluate thequality and then make decisions
(04:42):
whether they want to improvethe outcomes by changing the
meaning.
To keep it simple.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
I love that and I have a question about the
intersection of meaningfulpurpose and engagement at work.
And when I look at the datafrom Gallup, when you look at
the chart that shows who'sengaged, who's not engaged,
who's actively disengaged, thenumbers really haven't moved
since they started tracking thedata.
It's been about, you know,we're coming on like two decades
(05:08):
now, but we know all thisinformation, all these research
studies do this.
Try that.
You know this actually moveskey metrics.
Why isn't the needle moving?
Speaker 3 (05:17):
This is where history comes in.
To partially answer yourquestion in part.
To partially answer yourquestion.
What has happened was people inthe past, like in Machiavelli,
for instance, not that heinvented, he codified the fact
that you could be a narcissistand you needed to be a
narcissist in order to survive.
I don't know if you read thePrince, but that's pretty much
(05:40):
set a stage in terms of how tolead, how to manage.
So if you're a monarchy inEurope and you're reading
Machiavelli, even though a lotof people criticize them, they
were pretty much saying, yeah,this is the way to govern.
So then what kind of laws wouldyou enact in order to deal with
this advice that the prince isproviding?
Machiavelli is providing?
(06:00):
So it did have an influence inleadership and management
thinking.
It creates structures ofmanagement and leadership in
governments and organizations.
Another one could be Adam Smith.
Back in 1776.
He was the first one to say it,but he codified it.
People are lazy.
So if people are lazy and youhave to be a narcissist, how
does that affect organizationalbehavior, how we structure, how
(06:24):
we design things?
You have an Adam Smith not AdamSmith, but the theory of
evolution, you know, coming outand saying some people are
better than others and you havethis ranking thing.
That happens and it giveslicense to people like Adolf
Hitler to, oh, kill people justbecause they're less than.
But all that kind of thinkingjust to mention three names it
(06:45):
all becomes part of the psycheof how people are thinking about
how to govern, how to lead, howto do things, and it's at a
very deep, unconscious level.
People are not even aware thatit's influencing them.
But a lot of organizationaltheory and design is based on
the wrong assumptions and, as aresult, the structures, the
systems, for instance, aredesigned in a way to practice
(07:08):
this corrupt, incorrect meaningsabout what people are all about
and how you manage a company.
Let me give you one specificexample, which I think is one of
the most insulting things youcan do to a human being.
Typically, I do this exercisewith people and I ask them the
question what do you do toincent people to?
You know, create conditionswhere people can be their best,
and usually what happens is thetype of responses that we'll
(07:30):
hear is well, we need tomotivate them.
Now think about this If I saythat I have to motivate you,
what is my meaning about you?
What opinion do I have aboutyou?
You're not motivated, that'sright.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
I You're not motivated.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
You're lazy, I have to do something on your behalf.
You see, that's part of howorganizations are built, that I
have to have structures whereyou have people on the top
telling, motivating people,because they're lazy.
They might say it that way, butthat's pretty much the
underlying force.
So in logotheliology, what wehave discovered is that you can
(08:02):
bring positive psychology, youcan bring good concepts to bear
and present them to people, butthere's this other force that is
countering it.
We call it meaning antics.
It's the antics to somethingpositive.
So what we do is to help peoplesee what is the content of those
meanings, where they came from,so that they can.
Then you cannot erase it.
You cannot erase things fromyour mind, but you can take away
(08:24):
the power of the meaning, thatsignificance, that opinion, that
view, that perspective, thatmindset, so that you can give
more force to what is positiveand constructive.
So until people are aware thatthey're operating on their wrong
meanings, corrupt meanings,incorrect meanings, incomplete
meanings, they will continue tobehave the way they're doing and
(08:44):
then managing the way thatthey're managing.
So you have to remove stuff inorder to put something in place
that is better.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
So can I conclude that let's say that I'm of this
mindset that you shared.
Like Adam Smith, people arenaturally lazy and then when I
get all these different things Ican do to increase engagement
in the workplace, I don't reallytake it very seriously because
I say, well, my core people arelazy, so this stuff isn't going
to work, so why bother trying it?
(09:11):
Is that what we're?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
hearing.
Yeah, just look at the pressabout companies like Amazon or
Boeing recently, and when youread about it and you hear the
description, what leaders aresaying they're going back to
theory X is well and alive inmany companies and I say all of
them.
But theory X is very well andalive, this operating
assumptions about how to leadpeople, what people are, are
(09:34):
still embedded in the thinkingof many people, many leaders,
which prevents them then, ofcourse, to balance appropriately
the social, the technical andthe business to allow for human
thriving.
And in those three components,our bias is that the social
component is first among equals.
It should be leading thetechnical and the business
(09:56):
components.
So I'll leave it at that up tothis point.
Any other questions then?
I'll leave it at that up tothis point.
Any other questions that I'llbe happy to?
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (10:01):
I would love to follow up, because you talked
about Theory X and kind of whatAmazon is doing.
Can you speak a little bit moreabout what you mean by that?
Because just for our listenersto really understand what is
your premise, you know as to howAmazon maybe is are treating
their people versus what wouldbe the ideal state that we would
(10:23):
see if a company was reallyleading with that social
component versus business andtechnical.
What would that look like?
Speaker 3 (10:31):
What I would say go to the press and look at their
own words to see what's notworking, pretty much.
And theory X is employees canbe trusted.
They're lazy all these thingsthat we got from people in the
past, frederick Taylor typephilosophy, even though it has
material, but it's still present, just to mention Darwin and
some of the others.
The idea is, this is where logoscriptology comes in, which
(10:55):
means, then, that I need toreplace the current meaning in
view that I have of people theattributions I'm making about
employees, for instance, or theattributions I'm making about
what is a leader or the role ofthe leader and then I have to
replace it with somethingdifferent.
So the idea would be like, forinstance, this is second wave
organization development and,according to low ethereality,
(11:15):
you would decide.
First of all, you would need toeducate people around what is
meaningful and what is notmeaningful.
Positive psychology contributesa lot to that, by the way,
which is I'm a strong fan ofpositive psychology.
So what you would do is youwould train your leaders to
think about what is the currentnarrative, the plot and the
(11:35):
script in this company when wetalk about employees, which is
an expression of the opinionsthat we have to them Like, for
instance, we have to controlthem, sort of a language sort of
thing.
So if it was a different andmore positive language, what
would that script look like?
So it's about re-scripting andre-plotting what's happening.
So you would have then teachyour leaders not only teach them
, but they need to first.
(11:57):
Let me say this also beforethat something that is different
about lovoteliology from othersciences this is lovoteliology
is not something that you comeprimarily to learn to do
something with it.
Lovoteliology you learn to liveit, to live it, practice it in
your life first.
Once you remove the log fromyour eye, you can see much more
(12:17):
clearly.
Then you can help other people.
So low teleology starts withhelping people first of all
understand themselves, see whatworks, it's not working, what is
the role of meaning there andhow can they clean up their
meaning so that they can dosomething positive.
So it starts with that.
First me applying it to myself.
Versus I start, you know, doingthings with other people.
So that's the starting point,but versus I start doing things
(12:38):
with other people.
So that's the starting point.
But if you apply it to acompany, just like quality that
everybody has to learn it,everybody will have to learn
meaningful purpose psychology,and in essence it is.
What does it mean to be human?
What is the meaning of life?
What makes life meaningful?
And then not based on what todo, it's what to be.
The do will follow later.
Meaning is about being, purposeabout doing.
The role of purpose is tofulfill meanings.
(13:00):
So the training is you educatepeople around meaningful purpose
psychology, help them gothrough their own individual
journey through workshops andlaboratories and, once they have
some reasonable level oflucidity, the task is to say
okay, as a leader, what kind ofan experience do I want the
employees to have with me?
Positive experience.
What does that look like?
Say, okay, as a leader, whatkind of an experience do I want
the employees to have with me?
Positive experience.
What does that look like?
(13:21):
What would I be saying differentfrom what I'm saying today?
What would I be thinkingdifferently?
What would I be feelingdifferently?
Even in conflict, where Idevelop a new narrative, a new
language, positive language,constructive language.
The same thing then happenswith employees.
If we're going to get along, ifwe're going to get along with
leadership, if we're going toget along, provide a great
(13:43):
service to our clients, whatwould I be saying and a company
who's done a great job at thisis Disney.
I worked for Disney for many,many years.
Disney does an excellent jobaround that.
They have pretty much down patthat we're here to create
conditions where, for the client, that gets us happy.
So what would I be saying?
How would I be behaving?
What's the script?
So then, the next level is, if Iwant employees to feel this way
(14:06):
in the company and to have thisnarrative about the experience
of working in the company, whatkinds of systems do I need to
create?
What processes, okay, whattechnologies will create
conditions where I'm going tomake that employee smile, come
to work with energy, enthusiasm?
We call them anima.
I'm not talking about Carl Jung, I'm talking anima from a
philosophical point of view,that I have a life force that
(14:27):
brings me to work based on themeaning that I'm giving to what
works means.
So leadership and employeeswork in creating systems,
organizations that areuser-friendly for the user, the
employee, and facilitates what,providing service to the guests
and to one another.
So another measure would bewhat is the experience that I
(14:48):
want the guests to have?
I want the guests to be happy,to be satisfied.
So what is the narrative story.
What are the technologies, thesystem, the touch points that
I'm having with that client?
What do they need to do so thatthe client feels this positive
experience, have this positiveexperience, and then that leads
to business results.
And that's where the cash comesin when you do a very good job.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
So I mean this is so fascinating to me because in a
different lane but it sounds sosimilar a colleague and I wrote
a book around branding.
But it sounds so similar Acolleague and I wrote a book
around branding.
Really, the premise of the bookis the operationalizing of
brand values.
(15:27):
That externally, if you'reespousing certain values about
your company and what you standfor and many times this is done
for marketing purposes but ifyou are a company that really
expresses a certain level ofvalues, that if you're not
operationalizing those expressesa certain level of values, that
if you're not operationalizingthose values internally within
the organization, by the way youtreat people by the type of
leadership that you'reexhibiting, by the processes and
structures.
(15:47):
And I really love that you'rebringing that particular piece
up, because a lot of timespeople think it's just about the
leaders and don't understandthat the structures and the
infrastructure also plays suchan important role in making sure
that that actually getsoperationalized through a
company that if you're not doingthose things then you are
incredibly inauthenticessentially as a company.
(16:08):
And that in this day and age,with such an aware younger
generation that's been dealing,you know, that's hypercognitive,
that deals with all sorts oftypes of information.
You know that's hypercognitive,that deals with all sorts of
types of information.
You know, and can process itvery, very quickly, that they
see through that very, very fastas well.
And so it's kind of interestingthe way you're describing it,
(16:29):
because I almost feel like we'reat this moment in time, because
of massive amounts of data andinformation, the way that we
process that.
It almost comes across moreclearly if you don't have that
authentic meaningfulness orpurpose in the way that you're
working with others, that thatgets recognized more readily
than perhaps it would have 50years ago in the workplace.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Hoy, you mentioned the genuineness and it goes back
to Michael's original questionin terms of what is it that's
preventing this?
And one of the big mistakesthat a lot of consulting firms
do and people in this line ofbusiness is the emphasis on the
to-do.
Here's a checklist, here's theprocess you need to follow.
The to-do is purposeful.
It's the feel of competenciesand skills and abilities and how
(17:15):
to make things happen Whilemeaning, which, in purpose,
can't happen without a meaning.
But the meaning is that faultthe checklist.
In order for us to be much moreprofitable, we have to do these
things.
You have to treat people thisway, so it becomes mechanical.
That's different from when itcomes from the ethos.
Okay, that you as a person areprincipled.
(17:38):
You have this very strongbelief that human beings mean
something, that, like Francosaid, you should not approach
people from utility perspectivebut from a dignity perspective,
and that they have potential andwhen you release that potential
, it can do great things foreverybody.
So that's why we talk about,you know, the ethos leads to the
anima, to the ergos.
The ergos is where you actuallyconduct yourself in an ethical
(18:00):
way, but it's because you havethose meanings.
So the authentic thing that youmentioned is very critical, but
it has to come from the heart,where you really truly, truly,
truly believe that people dodeserve to be treated with
dignity and respect, and I'mgoing to create and help create
systems and processes andstandards where we create this
machine, okay, the system wherewe bring the best of everybody
(18:23):
to serve, and that's at theheart of our work.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yeah, what I love is the opera, how you can bring to
life these ideas.
And when you bring up the ideaabout Disney and you talk about
dignity and respect, what popsup for me is when I went to
Disney World the first time inOrlando, florida, I remember all
the workers that were there.
They're all smiling, they'reall happy and they called them
(18:46):
Imagineers.
And when I look back at thatname now, it says so much it's
fun, it's respectful, it saysthat you have value because
you're an engineer and that's animportant job and it makes
imagination really important aswell.
And I think just that one wordbrings in the dignity and
(19:07):
respect that you're talkingabout.
And I'd love to know for someonewho's willing to change and
maybe they're a little bit likewow, this is pretty heavy stuff
that Luis is talking about.
How do I bring this into thereal world?
Like, how do I baby step this?
What's one or two things thatyou think anyone could just give
it a try just to see the magicof what you're talking about?
(19:30):
What are some baby steps peoplecould do right now?
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Well, I have a bias in the fundamentals, know the
fundamentals of meaningfulpurpose, psychology and, in
particular, you know what is themeaning and what is the role
that meaning plays in my life.
So a big step might be I amliving my life, as is what it's
meaning, and we have tools, andyou know, to help people through
that process.
But it's basically saying, ifsomething is going well for me,
(19:56):
what is it that is contributingto that?
And if you understand thefactors of the construct which
we don't have a lot of time, butthere's actual those factors
can help you answer some basicquestions that will tell you,
for instance, what is thequality of that meaning.
It explains why I'm having apositive result or not having a
positive result.
So, for instance, one of themis an attribution.
(20:17):
You know, one of the factors isattribution.
So what I'm attributing is trueabout my wife or my my, you
know or my son, or my employee,or my boss, or, as the case may
be, I am going to behaveconsistently with that
attribution that I've made ofthat person.
So then we also have what iscalled meaning quality.
What is the quality of thatmeaning?
Is it intelligent?
(20:38):
And when I say intelligent,it's a difference between a fact
, an empirical fact, and anopinion.
There's an intelligence tomeaning.
So we help people explore thequality of those meanings.
That meaning also has anotherquality component, which is
called health.
It's a prosocial or antisocial,and we have tools that help
people pretty much discover that.
We also have another componentof quality of a meaning, which
(20:59):
is harmony Do I have cognitivedissonance or am I centered and
all my thoughts are harmonious?
And cooperation.
You know the factors arecooperating to a particular end.
And then mindfulness.
You know being aware.
Am I aware of what's happeninginternally and externally?
So when people learn thosetools, they have much more,
(21:20):
let's say, control of andawareness of what's really
happening inside of me, what ishappening outside of me and how
to address the situation muchmore appropriately.
So we call it meaning analysis.
That leads to insight, and thatinsight then helps you to
contrast the current statusagainst an ideal state.
And then the task is how do Iclose the gaps?
(21:40):
By using the factors of themeaning, to be very precise, of
what needs to be changed, and wehave had fantastic results as a
result of that.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
So it sounds like, luis, we have to read your books
, because that would helpclarify a lot of these, my blogs
too, and your blogs, but I knowyou're working on a third book
and you spoke about it at thevery top of the to read your
books, because that would helpclarify a lot of these my blogs
too, and your blogs.
But I know you're working on athird book and you spoke about
it at the very top of thepodcast, which in your reference
, the Cassandra effect.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhat that is, because I had not
heard that before you mentionedit at the top of the podcast.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Yeah, well, meaningful purpose psychology
have said this, you know startedbecause of the paradox that
people, you know, a worlddoesn't suffer.
People don't suffer for a lackof answers.
The answers are there.
So the Cassandra effect comesagain from Greek mythology and
it's about this dude, apollos,this god who comes down from
Olympus and he's the god ofprophecy and other gifts.
(22:33):
And he goes to this city calledTroy and he goes to the royal
court as a human, you know, ahuman form, goes to the royal
court and meets with the kingand the queen and he notices a
very beautiful princess by thename of Cassandra and he starts
to engage with her and she'svery bright and intelligent and
talented and he's reallyimpressed with Cassandra.
So he gives her the gift oftruth that she'll be able to say
(22:56):
the truth, but not only thatshe'll be able to see into the
future, she'll be able toprophesy and see the truth of
what's coming in the future.
So he gives her that gift.
But then he had a hidden agendaand he starts making
advancements and she says whoa,whoa, whoa, wait a minute, I'm a
virtuous woman, I'm not goingto go there.
So he gets angry at her and hecurses her and the curse is and
(23:19):
I cannot take away from you thegift of saying the truth in
prophecy but I'm going to curseyou with the curse that nobody's
going to believe what you say,they will not believe your truth
, and he goes away huffing andpuffing.
So what happens?
Being a prophet, she can seeinto the future and she tells
her parents the Greeks areplotting against us, but nobody
believes her.
And she says the Greeks arecoming, but nobody believes her.
(23:43):
The Greeks build this horse andthere are soldiers inside and
Achilles is there and to comeinto the city.
If you allow them in, they'regoing to destroy us and you know
the rest of the story.
Eventually she dies, also aspart of the sad story.
So the Cassandra paradox is thefact that people have answers
before them, but they're notknowledge.
And the curse the effect is thecurse, which is not only on
(24:05):
Cassandra, not being a peopleunbeliever is the fact that the
people of Troia also curse.
Where the inability andunwillingness to be able to see
reality and truth, as it is someaningful, purpose psychology.
What it does is to help peoplework out the curse and to claim
their birthright that was takenaway from their childhood by
(24:29):
being given trash that reallydoesn't reflect who they are and
their potential and their power.
Just like we inheritedMachiavellian thinking and
narcissism.
And you know Charles Darwinphilosophy and so forth.
So I could keep on going thelist of historical figures that
help shape what we callorganizational theory and
leadership theory.
But that's what we do is tohelp people pretty much
(24:51):
understand.
How am I preventing myself fromthriving?
And many times they can't see.
They can't see.
So our task is to help them see, to remove again the log so
they can see much more clearlyand not I can see clearly.
Then I can start helping people.
Before that, we don't encouragethat people you know, to help
people unless you have cleanyour own act, because you can do
harm and damage, especially ifyou're a therapist type of thing
(25:12):
I'm talking here.
You know some roles more thanmore than not.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
It's up, it's.
It's fascinating just becauseyou're describing that, and I
kind of feel like we're having acassandra effect within our
society.
We are we are your way.
Things are happening right infront of our eyes and we're
either choosing not to see it orwe're just not really believing
what we're seeing, um, and whatit is but it's because it's
because of low quality meaning.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
So go ahead, aiko, I'm sorry, I was just saying.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
I think I'm getting the full circle for our
listeners on why is the needlenot moving on engagement since
they started measuring itapproximately 20 years ago, and
it sounds like it's theCassandra effect on some
leadership because they're notbelieving that these things work
.
And I might argue that the lazyones aren't the workers, it's
(26:05):
the leaders that are too lazy tochange and look at the good
answers that are in front ofthem and I'm curious what you
think about that.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
I think it's all of the above, all of us in
particular, including myself.
I know that I have biases.
I know that I have biases.
I know that I have blind spots.
That's why, my first book, Isort of talk about the theory,
but I talk about being a guineapig and observing myself as I
learn this stuff and apply it tomyself.
And the latter part of eachchapter I'm reporting how, when
I implemented this or appliedthis.
(26:34):
This is how it affected me.
So I confess that I'mincomplete, I confess that I
have faults, but that's part ofthe journey.
You know where you're actuallyhaving the integrity to confront
yourself and look at thecontent of your system, your
values, and that's just thequestion am I really living up
to them too?
You know, is my public andprivate identity matching pretty
(26:59):
much, or am I to differentpeople, what I feel inside and
how I'm projecting myselfoutside, that perspective of
engagement where people areresisting engaging in the
company because what theyattribute is being attributed
about them, how the beliefsystem that people cannot be
trusted, the value system I'mtalking about here, factors of
(27:23):
the meaning construct, the valuesystem, which is not
necessarily ethical system, youknow, in regards to opinion,
that they have to people.
Values is what allows us toself-regulate, by the way, when
the attributions, the beliefsystems and the value systems
are incomplete or corrupt, whatit does is it has an effect on
another factor, which is feelinghow I feel about working here,
(27:45):
how do I feel about working here?
And an assister of feeling.
Another factor of the constructis attitudes, and attitudes I
move away from something or moveclose to something.
Okay, so you know the continuumof an attitude.
So attitudes is what determineshow committed people are going
to be, how engaged they're goingto be, because of how they feel
.
And that they feel and havethat attitude because what
(28:07):
that's being attributed aboutthem, the belief system, and
then the values that they areexperiencing.
So my values are being violatedbecause of my sense of fairness
.
Let's say my values are beingviolated because of my sense of
fairness.
Let's say, and they have thisopinion that I have to be
managed, that I need to bemotivated, because they have
this opinion of me.
And again, like we say, go tothe press and look at some of
(28:31):
these companies that have beenhaving scandals recently and
you'll see the script.
That is the way we think aboutemployees and that's why the
engagement remains stubborn, andit will remain stubborn until
we break the Cassandra effect.
Speaker 4 (28:43):
Wow, this has been and I hope this doesn't come
across trite, but this has beenone of the most meaningful
podcast discussions we've had ina really long time.
Louise, thank you so much.
I could listen to you all day.
I'm definitely going topurchase your books, but I think
what the aha for me throughoutthis conversation was even just
(29:08):
simplifying that, and I hope Iget this right.
Meaning is about being, butpurpose is about doing right.
So it's almost like the actionarm of meaning, of having
meaningfulness, is acting withpurpose.
So I feel like that is soclarifying for me and it just,
of course, I'm now recallingevery working experience I've
(29:30):
ever had and every boss I'veever encountered and saying,
nope, they didn't have thatmeaning.
So this has been an amazinghalf hour.
Thank you so much for joiningus and I hope that you'll come
back, especially after youpublish your third book, and
tell us more about the CassandraEffect.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Thank you, luis, and thank you for listening in
everyone, and we'll see you forour next episode.
Take care everybody.
Next episode Take careeverybody.
We hope you've enjoyed thisepisode.
If you'd like to hear futureepisodes, be sure to subscribe
to the Happy at Work podcast andleave us a review with your
thoughts.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Are you interested in speaking on a future episode or
want to collaborate with us?
Let us know.
You can send us an email atadmin at happyatworkpodcastcom.
And, lastly, follow us onLinkedIn or Twitter for even
more happiness.
See you soon.
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