July 11, 2024 • 32 mins
On this episode, we speak with author and speaker Margie Warrell about developing the courage needed to take risks and break through barriers.
Margie shares stories from her childhood on a rural farm in Australia and how those experiences taught her the importance of courage and embracing discomfort. She discusses tools for managing fear, such as focusing on goals rather than obstacles.
Margie also emphasizes the connection between courage and finding purpose or meaning in our work. The conversation explores specific challenges women face in male-dominated fields and how embracing small acts of bravery can help build tolerance for risk over time.
Margie previews her upcoming book "The Courage Gap" which offers a framework for developing courage at work and closing the gap between espoused values and actual behaviors.
- Visit Margie's website!
- Preorder her book, ‘The Courage Gap", here.
- To support Margie's NYC marathon run, head this way.
To stay connected and continue the conversation, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.
And don't forget to check out our previous episodes for more tips and strategies to boost your workplace happiness. You can find them on your favorite podcast platform or on our website.
If you have any questions, comments, or topic suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you!
Stay inspired, stay motivated, and stay happy at work!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura Hamill (00:06):
Welcome back for another episode of the happy at
work podcast, with Laura, Tessaand Michael.
Tessa Misiaszek (00:14):
Each week we have thoughtful conversations
with leaders, founders andauthors about happiness at work.
Tune
Michael McCarthy (00:22):
in each Thursday for a new conversation.
Enjoy the show.
Tessa Misiaszek (00:40):
Hi, and welcome to the happy at work podcast. We
are so excited to be joinedtoday by Margie Worrell, who is
a best selling author, keynotespeaker and consultant on all
things having to do with talentand really a topic that we're
excited to speak with her about,which is courage, having courage
(01:02):
at work having courage in yourlife. And her latest book, her
newest book is coming out nextJanuary called the courage gap.
So welcome Margie to the happyat work podcast.
Margie Warrell (01:12):
It's great to be with you, Tessa,
Tessa Misiaszek (01:15):
free, thank you so much. You know, we're gonna
kick this off and the way thatwe kick off a lot of our
podcasts, which is really, youknow, wanting us to hear more
about your journey. How did youget to, you know, from a rural
farm in Australia to becoming akeynote speaker and really
focusing on the topics that youfocus on in your consulting
(01:36):
work, and certainly in yourwriting and research over the
past several years.
Margie Warrell (01:41):
Great question.
I've heard it said that we teachbest what we most most need to
learn. And so I suppose youcould say I've had to practice
courage a lot in my life. And Ihave also found having lived
around the world in multiplecountries and continents is that
when I meet people, and I meetso many smart, clever, creative,
(02:04):
capable people, the biggestbarrier holding back people who
live in countries like the US orAustralia is not external. It is
internal. It is that lack ofbelief in ourselves and our
willingness to take action amidthe risks and our own fear and
the and the discomfort. And soyeah, I started out on a farm
(02:26):
story from my childhood thatrelates to the work I do now
working with organizations wasaround the time I was 10 I was
desperate for a pony and Ibegged my dad who milk cows for
50 years we were on dairy farm.
I was a big sister of sevenkids, could I please get a
horse, please, please can I havea pony. And there wasn't a lot
(02:49):
of money. And the best that hecould manage was to sell a few
pigs and buy me this really oldhorse. And he arrived on the
back of a cattle truck on my10th birthday. And he came up
and I looked up at him and hewas so big, and I felt so small.
But I was determined and everymorning before school and every
afternoon after school, I wouldgo out there and bridle him up
(03:11):
and settle him up. And in thebeginning I used to be like sick
nauseous with nervousness andday after day and week after
week and month after month. Myfear weighed and my confidence
and my courage grouped. When Ilook back on that time, I
realized that courage andcomfort can't ride the same
horse. And growth and comfortcan't ride the same horse. And
(03:33):
when we're only doing what'scomfortable, where we know we
can't fall off or feel stupid ormess up. We actually deprive
ourselves of the opportunitiesand the experiences that would
help us grow and realize I cando that. And it's okay even when
I fall off, I can pick myselfback up. And I see this in the
(03:54):
workplace to regularly and inthe last few years I've had the
opportunity to be working asconsulting in the CEO Institute
at Korn Ferry with extremelysenior accomplished art shorter
Neri leaders. And yet, the thingthat trips them up and the
things that trips up talentedexecutive teams is never a lack
(04:18):
of technical know how andexpertise. It is when you drill
down far enough and you pullback enough layers it is the
unfaced insecurities and fearsand vulnerabilities that they
haven't dealt with. It's thatvertical development work that
hasn't been done. That thatactually leads to short sighted
decision making and blinkeredthinking and silos of
(04:41):
information that actually reallyhold everyone back and actually
ultimately over time, putsleaders teams options in more
vulnerable places. And so, so Ifeel that courage, even though
we talk about it like somepeople are born with it, and
some aren't. It is a skill andyou know, and I think I've
started to build it and learn itgrowing up on the phone. And I
(05:03):
it's just been something that Ifeel honestly a real calling
around as in my adult life.
Laura Hamill (05:10):
I want to follow up on that Margie, that's such a
good story. And the horseanalogy is such a good one then
love that. I'm curious aboutwhat are those some of those
tools, and we talked in the verybeginning about practicing
courage, you know, I can thinkabout things that I've done to
try to be calm before meeting orkind of talk myself up, you
(05:30):
know, and be more positive selfhave more positive self talk.
I'm curious, what do you thinkare some of the best tools for
people to practice courage?
Margie Warrell (05:39):
Well, firstly, great question, Laura. And But
firstly, I'll just say this,there's two aspects to courage.
One is the management of fear.
And two is the willingness toact in its presence. And so for
some people, simply going to anevent where they don't know
anyone could be terrifying,because they're so afraid. And
(06:00):
for someone else, that's not anact of courage at all. It's like
they do it all the time. It'snot a big deal. So one of it,
one part of it is just lookingat how we're actually magnifying
our own fear factor beyond whatis reasonable or rational or
proportional to the situationitself. And secondly, is
building our own willingness,and that's where purpose can
(06:24):
come in and, and buildingconfidence, etc. to take action
in the presence of fear. Yes,Michael. All right. So, so to
take action in the presence offear. And so I think a key thing
here, Laura would be number oneis focusing in on what you want,
and not on what you don't want.
(06:47):
Why is it that you know, youwant to do this thing, whether
it is to, you know, build abusiness, and you need to need
to go out there and network orto build relationships across an
organization where you need toreach out to people you don't
know, or people who are moresenior to you. And often our
brains, as we know, in the workof Daniel Cunningham, our brains
(07:08):
are wired, to focus more on whatwe don't want and what we do
want, we're TWICE as sensitiveto potential losses as we are to
potential gains. And so justrecognizing there is that bias,
to avoid the situations whichcould make us feel bad versus to
go and create situations thatcould make us feel good. And so
(07:29):
I always say, you know, focus onwhat it is you want, not on what
you don't want, and be reallyclear about what is it that you
want to achieve? Like, why isthat inspiring to you? Why does
that feed a sense of purpose andmeaning for you? And that's
where purpose and courage a veryform a virtuous cycle, because
when we're grounded in, youknow, a purpose that gives us,
(07:51):
meaning, we're like, you knowwhat, I may be terrified right
now, I'm scared that thingswon't go, but I'm going to do
this anyway. Dammit, you know,I'm not going to let my fear of
what could go wrong, keep mefrom trying to make things more,
right. And whether that'sreaching out to someone, whether
that's giving feedback tosomeone, because I want to be a
great manager, and I know thisperson isn't going to develop if
(08:14):
I don't give this feedback, eventhough it's risky, they might
not respond well, even thoughit's going to be awkward, and
they might get upset. So I thinkthat is that is one key thing is
just to be really clear on whatyour intention is, and where
you're putting your focus.
Because, of course, what wefocus on expands and if all we
do is focus on what scares usand what makes us stressed and
anxious, as I believe we saw alot of during the pandemic, it
(08:35):
actually just feels more ofthat. And so we actually become
a victim of our own anxiousthinking as well as an
accomplice to it. Real
Tessa Misiaszek (08:46):
quick, you just froze for a moment. Oh, so you
froze when you said we weretalking about what you focus on?
Yeah. You kind of I don't know,maybe.
Margie Warrell (09:00):
Yeah, I'm just gonna say if there's many jst I
really don't have windows open.
Sorry, if it's the Wi Fi on myend, I'm not sure what to do.
But hang on, just bear with meas I close. I don't think it's,
there's anything I can change onthat. So let me just come back
to you. Okay, so I said, what wefocus on expands? Yeah.
Tessa Misiaszek (09:19):
So actually, we didn't hear what expands so if
you can just start there. Justto finish your thought and then
we can go on
Margie Warrell (09:26):
what we focus on expands and when all we're doing
is focusing on what we don'twant or what's causing us stress
or makes us feel anxious. Weactually only become more
anxious and more stressed andmore afraid. So I think number
one, Laura is really check whatis it that you're putting your
attention on and getting reallyclear about your highest
(09:47):
intention that you want toachieve?
Michael McCarthy (09:49):
Mark Yeah, I love this the the intersection
of Daniel Kahneman his work onyou know, losses are twice as
painful as a gain and reallyfocusing on that North Star
purpose, I'm going to ask you areally challenging question. I
just feel free to, to play withme, I had the opportunity to
meet the parent of one of mystudents and her dad is a
(10:11):
general, he runs the War Collegein Colombia, the country. And
his job is to train generals sothat they can bring people into
battle against the narcos. So Iwas asking questions about the
new recruits. And I said, How doyou teach courage to a new
recruit, when they know there isa ransom on them, if their
(10:33):
addresses disclosed so that theycould be killed, they can be
kidnapped, they can be killed inbattle, they don't have
experience. A lot of the peoplethat are on the other side of
the terrorists are cocainegrowers, or however you want to
label them. They're they'rereally focused on what they do.
How would you teach a new personcourage when they're afraid? And
(10:56):
just to so much stacked upagainst them? But they've been
drafted?
Margie Warrell (11:00):
Yeah. This comes back to purpose, and a why there
has to be a significant why. Andso I would be focused on helping
those people understand thegreater cause that they've been
drafted to support. We may notalways explicitly ask ourselves
(11:26):
the question, but if we cannotanswer the question, for the
sake of what am I willing to bebrave, then we likely won't be
for the sake of what am Iwilling to go into battle, or to
raise my voice, or to say, or dosomething that's unpopular, much
less to lay my life on the line,and we see people lay their
(11:48):
lives on the line, you justthink not long ago, Alex ivaldi,
you know, eyes wide open waslaying his life on the line, and
it cost him his life. And anyonein a wartime situation, we have
to be sufficiently galvanized bya sense of purpose. And that
helps to really reinforce ourcourage that we believe in the
(12:10):
cause. If we don't believe inthe cause, it's pretty hard to
be brave, we have to believe inthe cause.
Tessa Misiaszek (12:18):
So I would love to now take that from that
extreme example, as it relatesto obviously, in war and that
connection to purpose, which,you know, completely makes
sense, to actually bring it backinto the workplace. Honestly, I
haven't heard that connectionbetween courage and purpose. But
that makes so much sense to menow, and I can see how it's
(12:42):
really a dual relationship, thegreater the purpose and meaning
the more courage you'll have,the more courage you gain, the
probably the more connected topurpose you'll you'll be and the
it's kind of a, you know,interchange of those two
constructs, which I think are soimportant. I'd love to talk a
little bit about your advocacyfor women, women in the
(13:03):
workplace, because certainly,you know, this is a constituency
that I also think conditioningand stereotypes and other types
of barriers that have beenfaced. I don't know if it's a
lack of courage, or if it's justalmost a kind of a, I don't want
to say the word complacency as awoman, but it's almost like you
(13:27):
give up before you've eventried, right? Like you kind of
already feel like you know theoutcome, so why bother? And so
what would you say? Or what'skind of your thoughts? Or What
work have you done and kind ofhelping women kind of get over
those those barriers, thosestereotypes, those
generalizations and maybe try tobreak through, both
(13:48):
metaphorically and physically,sometimes to, to get to that
other side and to be able to seea different type of outcome.
Great
Margie Warrell (13:57):
question, Tessa.
Well, firstly, let me just say,there's often a lot of pushback
on this idea that women need todo more. And we often hear
people say, we don't need to fixwomen, we need to fix the
system. And yes, there areabsolutely systemic cultural
barriers that women have facedand continue to face in many
countries outside the worldoutside of the United States are
(14:19):
greater barriers than what womenface here. And I work with those
women, women from Iran, orAfghanistan or Yemen in all
parts of the world in the work Ido with the women's democracy
network. But if we're talkingabout women in the United
States, or in Australia, or inEngland, or in countries that
are that really are trying tolive out the values of gender
(14:44):
equality, I would say thishaving grown up in a very
gendered environment myself,that often we don't even realize
how we're hemmed in by socialnorms, and expectations that
others may have heard of us whenwe were young. A lack of role
models etc. And so we can holdourselves back very
(15:04):
unconsciously, I was talking toa young woman just a day or two
ago about not that she hasn'tgot a pay increase. And she, she
had asked, and then she hasn'tgot it and, and I said, you're
gonna need to be kind of boldhere, and really stand your
ground. She's like, I feel solike, it's so awkward and
uncomfortable. I said, Yeah, itis, it's really awkward and
(15:26):
uncomfortable. But that's whatyou're going to have to do. And
so I think, as a woman, and Iwrote about this, actually, my
last book, you've got this,which was inspired because of
all the women I met. And I'moften saying to them, you've got
this, you know, back yourself,make a bet on yourself. We need
to doubt our doubts, because weoften we often buy into our
doubts, and we treat our doubtsas though they're the truth. You
(15:49):
know, I'm not that smart or, andwe look at other people are not
as strategic is that person andcreative or financially strong
as that person or et cetera, etcetera, versus really owning the
unique value that we bring anddoubting our doubts and standing
firm in our own value. Andthat's where I believe so
strongly that courage comesbefore confidence. And we talk a
(16:10):
lot about we hear this thing ofthe gender confidence gap. But
actually, we cannot close thatconfidence gap without first
acting with courage doing thevery things that we're nervous
to do when a little voice in ourheads going, Who the hell do you
think you are to do that? You'renot good enough? What will
people say they will probablysay no. And just doing it
(16:30):
anyway, like, there is a fearthere that we have, we've got to
step forward amid our fear,there is a risk factor there.
Women face the double binds andthe backlash effect, you know,
too bossy, if we are assertiveand not leader like enough if
we're not. And so I reallybelieve that we need to defy our
own doubts, we need to bewilling to break the norms, we
(16:53):
need to risk some of thatbacklash, because you cannot
change norms, deeply entrenchednorms, by complying to them. And
it's why women who are at theforefront of change in any
industry, particularly very maledominated ones, they have to be
that much bolder and braver,because they do face extreme,
(17:14):
extremely strong headwinds. Butover time, they do help to level
the playing field and make iteasier for others. And I feel
we're in a very different worldtoday than women were in the
workplace 30 years ago, however,or 50 years ago, that doesn't
mean that it is still notwithout its challenges, and
women still face a much morecomplex career journey. As a mom
(17:36):
of four myself, you know, no oneever said to my husband. Wow,
how do you have a career withfour kids? Said no one ever. And
yet I have had people say to meall the time, have you had a
career with four children? Likehow do you do that. And so we'll
know that we've reached aquality when there's not more
questions like that going towomen, and he doesn't get a gold
(17:58):
medal every time he would go outwithout children without a wife
as though you knows, husband andfather of the Year award. So So
I think there's still a long wayto go. But I think as women,
while we shape our environment,and our environment shapes us,
we really need to be backingourselves all the time. And it
is uncomfortable. And actually,to your point earlier, Laura.
(18:20):
And now the key thing that wehave to do, and this isn't just
for women, this is for men, too,is we have to embrace
discomfort, we have to just getcomfortable being uncomfortable.
And I know myself when I'muncomfortable, and I'm
uncomfortable, you know, writingthis new book that's coming out
there, I feel vulnerable. Oh mygosh, what if it's not good
(18:42):
enough? I know, everyone's like,we look at women like Brene
Brown, or we look at others andgo, Oh, they're so amazing.
You're like, Oh, I'm never gonnameasure up. And just going, You
know what, I'm not gonna let myfear of having a negative
comparison or not being goodenough, stop me from doing the
very thing that I really feelcalled to do and lights me up.
And so I think it's true for allof us just daring to do the very
(19:04):
thing you're afraid to do. Don'twait for confidence. And over
time, it's that's the very thingthat helps build the confidence
and actually also amelioratethat impostor syndrome that also
many women struggle with, butmen too, but I think women most
of all,
Michael McCarthy (19:21):
Margie, I love this. And I want to get your
opinion on something thathappened to me about 30 years
ago, that helped me withcourage. And I was in a, I was
in a political demonstration inNew York City. And there was a
parade ambassador, this woman.
And so things are getting like alittle violent politically. And
this woman turned into a tiger.
(19:44):
And she stood this guy down whohad been really big, even
threatening physical violence.
And, and when she won, like, shewon the interaction. And I went
up to her because I was afraid.
I was like, 19 years old. I wentup to her and I said, Where did
you get the courage to do that?
And she goes, You can be so muchbraver on behalf of another
person than yourself. She goes,try it. And I did. And it is so
(20:06):
much easier for me to like bethat tiger standing up for other
people. And it kind of helped melearn how to advocate for
myself. And I'm wondering whatyour thoughts are on that as
maybe being a strategy or atechnique to, to kind of get
started with courage? What areyour thoughts,
Margie Warrell (20:27):
I think that's really powerful observation. And
it's true in that what gives usmeaning as humans, we're wired
for connection. And we oftenfeel far more purposeful and
passionate. When it's somethingthat's not just impacting
ourselves, I'm not just fightingfor myself, to have a better
(20:48):
life, or to have more rights andfreedom or to deal with an
injustice, I'm fighting on thebehalf of others. And maybe I'm
part of it, too. But you know,throughout history, we've seen
change happen when people havefought for something, and it's
way bigger than themselves. Thisis particularly the case and
there's so much research showingthis for women in the workplace
(21:10):
can often be quite bold. When itcomes to them advocating for
others on their team, forinstance, I didn't when I did my
doctorate around, I justdissertation was on women's
leadership and and it was oftenthe case because women are so
affiliative. And they'repassionate about others, and
often very team focused, how doI lift others? How do I help
(21:30):
others that they'll go, helpfullever for, for for for fighting
for their team, often moretimid, more cautious, not as
strong and assertive when it'sfor themselves. So I think we
need to everywhere, but I thinkoften when it comes to that
purpose, we can just feel firein the belly when there's
something I know for me as amum, over the years, I've
(21:51):
probably never been moreassertive and never fought
harder. When I felt there wassomething I really need to fight
for. For my child, it was itjust totally broke me out of
whether they liked me or not,whether they think I'm being
reasonable, like, damn it, I'mgoing to do this. And I think so
there's a lot to be said forthat. But I think for ourselves,
I often want to just help peoplerealize when you think, Oh, it's
(22:12):
just for me, so I get paidbetter, or I get a promotion?
No, actually, it's not just feejust for you, when you're
growing. And when you'restepping into something that's
bigger, and that stretches youand develops you. Everyone else
benefits as a benefit to the youbring your value in bigger ways
you have there's a ripple effectfrom that you're a role model in
(22:34):
bigger ways. And so I thinksometimes when we're thinking
it's just for us, we maybe needto expand our aperture because
actually, when we're growinginto our potential and really
living our purpose more fullyand boldly, at doesn't just
serve us that serves countlessothers too. That's
Laura Hamill (22:52):
such a good way to say that I hadn't really thought
about it in that way. And I Thatmakes so much sense. I'd love to
hear a little bit more aboutyour new book. Can you tell us
about the book, the current gapthat's coming out in two? I
Margie Warrell (23:03):
can thank you for asking. So yes, the courage
gap. Five steps for braveraction. And we've touched on a
couple of those things justtoday in our conversation comes
out with Berrett Koehler nextJanuary. But I wrote this book,
because it's been five yearssince my last book, you've got
this, which came out just as thewheels were falling off the
(23:24):
world in COVID. And I think aswe look, whether it's in
organizations, and I get tohave, you know, up close and
personal with what's going on inorganizations regularly, we
often oceans and leaders willoften say we have a high value
on candor, or collaboration orinnovation, or you know,
agility. And yet the verybehaviors people need to exhibit
(23:47):
to be living that value don'thappen, there's often a gap
between what we espouse as ourvalues and what people do. And
that's individual, and that'scollective as well. And
honestly, I truly believe thatfear creates that gap in some
way, shape, or form. Fearcreates the gap and courage is
what closes that gap. And whenwe can develop that muscle, that
(24:08):
skill, it's a learnable skill inourselves, and then help to
develop it in others. It unlocksimmense latent potential. And it
avoids the very decisions andbehaviors that ultimately can
leave people and teams andorganizations in more insecure
places. And I think as we lookat history, you can look at
(24:31):
organizations, you know, we lookat those that have you know,
flamed out, and we go well, whywas it that Kodak didn't get on
board with digital photography?
Why was it that blockbuster justdidn't see the writing on the
wall? Because people were lockedin their thinking and they
weren't even willing tochallenge to challenge their own
blanket thinking because peoplewere afraid, you know,
disasters, NASA etc. were afraidto speak up because there was so
(24:53):
much fear. And so I feelstrongly that all leadership's
starts with self leadership. Wecannot lead others, we cannot
instill courage in others, wecannot foster psychological
safety, which I was talking toAmy Edmondson, you know, and we
did, I did a podcast with her onmy own podcast. And you know,
she said psychological andsafety are two sides of the same
(25:15):
coin, we cannot foster that ifwe're not role modeling, and
coming from a place grounded inencouraging virtue in value in
our own lives. And so I wrotethis book, because I really
believe that the way that we canturn around negative situations,
the way we can elevateorganizations, honestly society
(25:39):
or the world, is by is by doingthe very thing sometimes were
afraid to do and getting out ofour own way, and really
challenging those deeply edgepatterns of thought and
behavior, that of fear, callingthe shots and going out what is
it I want to stand for that'sbigger than what I'm afraid of.
Tessa Misiaszek (26:01):
So as Margie, we wind down, I can't believe
we're already at the 30 minutemark. As as we as we kind of end
this I would love. This has beensuch an amazing conversation,
you have given us so manydifferent bits of advice and
things to think about. But ifyou were to kind of distill it
(26:23):
down to a piece of advice to wejust our last couple podcasts
ago, we didn't we worked with aGen Z panel. And these were
early careerists. They're juststarting out actually three
women, if you were to give thema piece of advice about how they
can kind of identify theseopportunities to cultivate
courage that they can start towork this muscle more regularly
(26:48):
than waiting for the kind of thebig event but how they can kind
of do this on a more regularbasis. What what advice or what
kinds of exercises or what wouldyou recommend to people who
really want to exercise thismuscle as as I do to be honest
with you after thisconversation? Yeah,
Margie Warrell (27:05):
well, I think firstly, tests are recognizing
is actually a muscle it is apsychological muscle. And
there's something called effecttolerance, where the more we do
something, the more we repeatit, the more tolerant we get of
feeling that way. And so it'slike bomb disposal experts,
right? Don't start with a livebomb, they start on a little
things, and they build up theirability to stay calm in a high
(27:29):
stakes situation. So that in thesame vein, I would say, some
people might be saying, youknow, I'm fine, I don't need to
be brave, I'm cool. I'velearned, okay, if I went through
every aspect of your life,instead, I want you to write it
out a 10 with how deeplysatisfied and positive you feel
about it. Any area that's notgetting a solid 8.59 I would say
(27:53):
okay, what's going on now?
What's going on in that aspectof your life that's only getting
a six or seven or two? Right?
There is an opportunity for youto act with courage. And like,
oh, I can't change this. Oh, butI couldn't do that. No, I would
say no, that's not true. And soin those gaps in our own life,
between the life we're livingand the life we want to be
(28:14):
living, it was is is silentinvitations for us to act with
courage. And so within that, andit's a question I asked myself
often, what would I do today, ifI was being brave. And sometimes
it's I would reach out to thatperson that I'm not sure is
interested in building arelationship with me, but I
really think they're cool. AndI'd love to catch up with them.
(28:35):
And I would just reach out tothem. And they'll either say
yes, or they'll say no, but I'llrisk the rejection. I'm going to
push back and say no to thatinvitation, even though I know
that person's probably going tofeel a little bit of
disappointment. Or I'm going togive that feedback to someone
who I know might react a littlenegatively, but honestly, it
lacks a lack of integrity and meas a leader, if I don't give
(28:55):
that feedback, because I seethere's an opportunity for that
person to develop in that area.
And I think they're blind to howthey're coming across and
showing up for others andsabotaging themselves. So
obviously, it's different foreverybody. But I would say
continually just askingyourself, what would I do today
if I was being brave, in my job,in my team, as a parent, as a
(29:15):
partner, or even with my goals,if I've taken on running the New
York Marathon, this November,and I have never run a marathon
and I grew up with a label on myhead that my dad gave me a
bumblefoot that because I wasuncoordinated. And so here I am
in my 50s going, You know what,I am going to run a marathon.
And let me tell you it's a lotof steps outside my comfort zone
(29:38):
but it's like you know what, Ijust don't want to go to my I
always wanted to do one and I'mlike I now I'm going to go to my
grave knowing I did it. Just oneI haven't done it yet. But you
know that I'm certainlycommitted to doing it. So yeah,
Tessa, I would just say askingyourself, why do I need to be
braver and anytime there's anarea of your life that's not as
you'd like it to be? II inthere, it's calling for courage.
Tessa Misiaszek (30:05):
I absolutely love that. I actually had an
answer to every single one ofthose questions you just asked,
as far as you know, who's thatperson was that feedback? And
congratulations on running yourfirst marathon. I just ran
London in April. Good for you.
Yeah. So it's, it is an amazing,amazing experience in New York
is an amazing marathon. Sowishing you all the luck. Are
(30:28):
you running it for charity?
Margie Warrell (30:31):
Yes, I'm running it for the team team rave
Christopher Reeve Foundation.
Wonderful. And yeah, my brotherhas paraplegia. And so I
actually just posted an articleon LinkedIn about it because he
just came to visit me fromAustralia. And I, I he's really
inspired me with his attitude.
But the reef Foundation does alot of great research into
(30:51):
spinal injury, how to help thoselive with it. And also how do we
how do we help people who haveinjuries ultimately get mobility
back over time? So yes, that andyou know what, it helps me in my
training that I'm running it notjust for me to go, Hey, I did a
marathon. That's cool. Butactually, I love that I'm
running it to help people whoare living with disability and
(31:13):
spinal injury.
Tessa Misiaszek (31:13):
So yeah, you also have to be brave every day,
every day,
Margie Warrell (31:17):
every day. It's very, very inspiring. Yeah.
Tessa Misiaszek (31:20):
Wonderful.
Margie, this has been amazing.
Thank you so much for joiningus. This has just been a
fantastic conversation. We're soappreciative and excited to read
the coverage gap, which comesout next January. Maybe we could
have you back to talk a littlebit more about the book, then.
Margie Warrell (31:35):
I would love that. Thank you. Thank you. It's
been a pleasure to be on withyou all.
Michael McCarthy (31:39):
Thank you very much. We hope you've enjoyed
this episode. If you'd like tohear future episodes, be sure to
subscribe to the happy at workpodcast, and leave us a review
with your thoughts.
Tessa Misiaszek (31:54):
Are you interested in speaking on a
future episode or want tocollaborate with us? Let us know
you can send us an email atadmin at happy at work
podcast.com And
Laura Hamill (32:06):
lastly, follow us on LinkedIn or Twitter for even
more happiness. See you soon
Welcome back for another episode of the happy at
work podcast, with Laura, Tessaand Michael.
Tessa Misiaszek (00:14):
Each week we have thoughtful conversations
with leaders, founders andauthors about happiness at work.
Tune
Michael McCarthy (00:22):
in each Thursday for a new conversation.
Enjoy the show.
Tessa Misiaszek (00:40):
Hi, and welcome to the happy at work podcast. We
are so excited to be joinedtoday by Margie Worrell, who is
a best selling author, keynotespeaker and consultant on all
things having to do with talentand really a topic that we're
excited to speak with her about,which is courage, having courage
(01:02):
at work having courage in yourlife. And her latest book, her
newest book is coming out nextJanuary called the courage gap.
So welcome Margie to the happyat work podcast.
Margie Warrell (01:12):
It's great to be with you, Tessa,
Tessa Misiaszek (01:15):
free, thank you so much. You know, we're gonna
kick this off and the way thatwe kick off a lot of our
podcasts, which is really, youknow, wanting us to hear more
about your journey. How did youget to, you know, from a rural
farm in Australia to becoming akeynote speaker and really
focusing on the topics that youfocus on in your consulting
(01:36):
work, and certainly in yourwriting and research over the
past several years.
Margie Warrell (01:41):
Great question.
I've heard it said that we teachbest what we most most need to
learn. And so I suppose youcould say I've had to practice
courage a lot in my life. And Ihave also found having lived
around the world in multiplecountries and continents is that
when I meet people, and I meetso many smart, clever, creative,
(02:04):
capable people, the biggestbarrier holding back people who
live in countries like the US orAustralia is not external. It is
internal. It is that lack ofbelief in ourselves and our
willingness to take action amidthe risks and our own fear and
the and the discomfort. And soyeah, I started out on a farm
(02:26):
story from my childhood thatrelates to the work I do now
working with organizations wasaround the time I was 10 I was
desperate for a pony and Ibegged my dad who milk cows for
50 years we were on dairy farm.
I was a big sister of sevenkids, could I please get a
horse, please, please can I havea pony. And there wasn't a lot
(02:49):
of money. And the best that hecould manage was to sell a few
pigs and buy me this really oldhorse. And he arrived on the
back of a cattle truck on my10th birthday. And he came up
and I looked up at him and hewas so big, and I felt so small.
But I was determined and everymorning before school and every
afternoon after school, I wouldgo out there and bridle him up
(03:11):
and settle him up. And in thebeginning I used to be like sick
nauseous with nervousness andday after day and week after
week and month after month. Myfear weighed and my confidence
and my courage grouped. When Ilook back on that time, I
realized that courage andcomfort can't ride the same
horse. And growth and comfortcan't ride the same horse. And
(03:33):
when we're only doing what'scomfortable, where we know we
can't fall off or feel stupid ormess up. We actually deprive
ourselves of the opportunitiesand the experiences that would
help us grow and realize I cando that. And it's okay even when
I fall off, I can pick myselfback up. And I see this in the
(03:54):
workplace to regularly and inthe last few years I've had the
opportunity to be working asconsulting in the CEO Institute
at Korn Ferry with extremelysenior accomplished art shorter
Neri leaders. And yet, the thingthat trips them up and the
things that trips up talentedexecutive teams is never a lack
(04:18):
of technical know how andexpertise. It is when you drill
down far enough and you pullback enough layers it is the
unfaced insecurities and fearsand vulnerabilities that they
haven't dealt with. It's thatvertical development work that
hasn't been done. That thatactually leads to short sighted
decision making and blinkeredthinking and silos of
(04:41):
information that actually reallyhold everyone back and actually
ultimately over time, putsleaders teams options in more
vulnerable places. And so, so Ifeel that courage, even though
we talk about it like somepeople are born with it, and
some aren't. It is a skill andyou know, and I think I've
started to build it and learn itgrowing up on the phone. And I
(05:03):
it's just been something that Ifeel honestly a real calling
around as in my adult life.
Laura Hamill (05:10):
I want to follow up on that Margie, that's such a
good story. And the horseanalogy is such a good one then
love that. I'm curious aboutwhat are those some of those
tools, and we talked in the verybeginning about practicing
courage, you know, I can thinkabout things that I've done to
try to be calm before meeting orkind of talk myself up, you
(05:30):
know, and be more positive selfhave more positive self talk.
I'm curious, what do you thinkare some of the best tools for
people to practice courage?
Margie Warrell (05:39):
Well, firstly, great question, Laura. And But
firstly, I'll just say this,there's two aspects to courage.
One is the management of fear.
And two is the willingness toact in its presence. And so for
some people, simply going to anevent where they don't know
anyone could be terrifying,because they're so afraid. And
(06:00):
for someone else, that's not anact of courage at all. It's like
they do it all the time. It'snot a big deal. So one of it,
one part of it is just lookingat how we're actually magnifying
our own fear factor beyond whatis reasonable or rational or
proportional to the situationitself. And secondly, is
building our own willingness,and that's where purpose can
(06:24):
come in and, and buildingconfidence, etc. to take action
in the presence of fear. Yes,Michael. All right. So, so to
take action in the presence offear. And so I think a key thing
here, Laura would be number oneis focusing in on what you want,
and not on what you don't want.
(06:47):
Why is it that you know, youwant to do this thing, whether
it is to, you know, build abusiness, and you need to need
to go out there and network orto build relationships across an
organization where you need toreach out to people you don't
know, or people who are moresenior to you. And often our
brains, as we know, in the workof Daniel Cunningham, our brains
(07:08):
are wired, to focus more on whatwe don't want and what we do
want, we're TWICE as sensitiveto potential losses as we are to
potential gains. And so justrecognizing there is that bias,
to avoid the situations whichcould make us feel bad versus to
go and create situations thatcould make us feel good. And so
(07:29):
I always say, you know, focus onwhat it is you want, not on what
you don't want, and be reallyclear about what is it that you
want to achieve? Like, why isthat inspiring to you? Why does
that feed a sense of purpose andmeaning for you? And that's
where purpose and courage a veryform a virtuous cycle, because
when we're grounded in, youknow, a purpose that gives us,
(07:51):
meaning, we're like, you knowwhat, I may be terrified right
now, I'm scared that thingswon't go, but I'm going to do
this anyway. Dammit, you know,I'm not going to let my fear of
what could go wrong, keep mefrom trying to make things more,
right. And whether that'sreaching out to someone, whether
that's giving feedback tosomeone, because I want to be a
great manager, and I know thisperson isn't going to develop if
(08:14):
I don't give this feedback, eventhough it's risky, they might
not respond well, even thoughit's going to be awkward, and
they might get upset. So I thinkthat is that is one key thing is
just to be really clear on whatyour intention is, and where
you're putting your focus.
Because, of course, what wefocus on expands and if all we
do is focus on what scares usand what makes us stressed and
anxious, as I believe we saw alot of during the pandemic, it
(08:35):
actually just feels more ofthat. And so we actually become
a victim of our own anxiousthinking as well as an
accomplice to it. Real
Tessa Misiaszek (08:46):
quick, you just froze for a moment. Oh, so you
froze when you said we weretalking about what you focus on?
Yeah. You kind of I don't know,maybe.
Margie Warrell (09:00):
Yeah, I'm just gonna say if there's many jst I
really don't have windows open.
Sorry, if it's the Wi Fi on myend, I'm not sure what to do.
But hang on, just bear with meas I close. I don't think it's,
there's anything I can change onthat. So let me just come back
to you. Okay, so I said, what wefocus on expands? Yeah.
Tessa Misiaszek (09:19):
So actually, we didn't hear what expands so if
you can just start there. Justto finish your thought and then
we can go on
Margie Warrell (09:26):
what we focus on expands and when all we're doing
is focusing on what we don'twant or what's causing us stress
or makes us feel anxious. Weactually only become more
anxious and more stressed andmore afraid. So I think number
one, Laura is really check whatis it that you're putting your
attention on and getting reallyclear about your highest
(09:47):
intention that you want toachieve?
Michael McCarthy (09:49):
Mark Yeah, I love this the the intersection
of Daniel Kahneman his work onyou know, losses are twice as
painful as a gain and reallyfocusing on that North Star
purpose, I'm going to ask you areally challenging question. I
just feel free to, to play withme, I had the opportunity to
meet the parent of one of mystudents and her dad is a
(10:11):
general, he runs the War Collegein Colombia, the country. And
his job is to train generals sothat they can bring people into
battle against the narcos. So Iwas asking questions about the
new recruits. And I said, How doyou teach courage to a new
recruit, when they know there isa ransom on them, if their
(10:33):
addresses disclosed so that theycould be killed, they can be
kidnapped, they can be killed inbattle, they don't have
experience. A lot of the peoplethat are on the other side of
the terrorists are cocainegrowers, or however you want to
label them. They're they'rereally focused on what they do.
How would you teach a new personcourage when they're afraid? And
(10:56):
just to so much stacked upagainst them? But they've been
drafted?
Margie Warrell (11:00):
Yeah. This comes back to purpose, and a why there
has to be a significant why. Andso I would be focused on helping
those people understand thegreater cause that they've been
drafted to support. We may notalways explicitly ask ourselves
(11:26):
the question, but if we cannotanswer the question, for the
sake of what am I willing to bebrave, then we likely won't be
for the sake of what am Iwilling to go into battle, or to
raise my voice, or to say, or dosomething that's unpopular, much
less to lay my life on the line,and we see people lay their
(11:48):
lives on the line, you justthink not long ago, Alex ivaldi,
you know, eyes wide open waslaying his life on the line, and
it cost him his life. And anyonein a wartime situation, we have
to be sufficiently galvanized bya sense of purpose. And that
helps to really reinforce ourcourage that we believe in the
(12:10):
cause. If we don't believe inthe cause, it's pretty hard to
be brave, we have to believe inthe cause.
Tessa Misiaszek (12:18):
So I would love to now take that from that
extreme example, as it relatesto obviously, in war and that
connection to purpose, which,you know, completely makes
sense, to actually bring it backinto the workplace. Honestly, I
haven't heard that connectionbetween courage and purpose. But
that makes so much sense to menow, and I can see how it's
(12:42):
really a dual relationship, thegreater the purpose and meaning
the more courage you'll have,the more courage you gain, the
probably the more connected topurpose you'll you'll be and the
it's kind of a, you know,interchange of those two
constructs, which I think are soimportant. I'd love to talk a
little bit about your advocacyfor women, women in the
(13:03):
workplace, because certainly,you know, this is a constituency
that I also think conditioningand stereotypes and other types
of barriers that have beenfaced. I don't know if it's a
lack of courage, or if it's justalmost a kind of a, I don't want
to say the word complacency as awoman, but it's almost like you
(13:27):
give up before you've eventried, right? Like you kind of
already feel like you know theoutcome, so why bother? And so
what would you say? Or what'skind of your thoughts? Or What
work have you done and kind ofhelping women kind of get over
those those barriers, thosestereotypes, those
generalizations and maybe try tobreak through, both
(13:48):
metaphorically and physically,sometimes to, to get to that
other side and to be able to seea different type of outcome.
Great
Margie Warrell (13:57):
question, Tessa.
Well, firstly, let me just say,there's often a lot of pushback
on this idea that women need todo more. And we often hear
people say, we don't need to fixwomen, we need to fix the
system. And yes, there areabsolutely systemic cultural
barriers that women have facedand continue to face in many
countries outside the worldoutside of the United States are
(14:19):
greater barriers than what womenface here. And I work with those
women, women from Iran, orAfghanistan or Yemen in all
parts of the world in the work Ido with the women's democracy
network. But if we're talkingabout women in the United
States, or in Australia, or inEngland, or in countries that
are that really are trying tolive out the values of gender
(14:44):
equality, I would say thishaving grown up in a very
gendered environment myself,that often we don't even realize
how we're hemmed in by socialnorms, and expectations that
others may have heard of us whenwe were young. A lack of role
models etc. And so we can holdourselves back very
(15:04):
unconsciously, I was talking toa young woman just a day or two
ago about not that she hasn'tgot a pay increase. And she, she
had asked, and then she hasn'tgot it and, and I said, you're
gonna need to be kind of boldhere, and really stand your
ground. She's like, I feel solike, it's so awkward and
uncomfortable. I said, Yeah, itis, it's really awkward and
(15:26):
uncomfortable. But that's whatyou're going to have to do. And
so I think, as a woman, and Iwrote about this, actually, my
last book, you've got this,which was inspired because of
all the women I met. And I'moften saying to them, you've got
this, you know, back yourself,make a bet on yourself. We need
to doubt our doubts, because weoften we often buy into our
doubts, and we treat our doubtsas though they're the truth. You
(15:49):
know, I'm not that smart or, andwe look at other people are not
as strategic is that person andcreative or financially strong
as that person or et cetera, etcetera, versus really owning the
unique value that we bring anddoubting our doubts and standing
firm in our own value. Andthat's where I believe so
strongly that courage comesbefore confidence. And we talk a
(16:10):
lot about we hear this thing ofthe gender confidence gap. But
actually, we cannot close thatconfidence gap without first
acting with courage doing thevery things that we're nervous
to do when a little voice in ourheads going, Who the hell do you
think you are to do that? You'renot good enough? What will
people say they will probablysay no. And just doing it
(16:30):
anyway, like, there is a fearthere that we have, we've got to
step forward amid our fear,there is a risk factor there.
Women face the double binds andthe backlash effect, you know,
too bossy, if we are assertiveand not leader like enough if
we're not. And so I reallybelieve that we need to defy our
own doubts, we need to bewilling to break the norms, we
(16:53):
need to risk some of thatbacklash, because you cannot
change norms, deeply entrenchednorms, by complying to them. And
it's why women who are at theforefront of change in any
industry, particularly very maledominated ones, they have to be
that much bolder and braver,because they do face extreme,
(17:14):
extremely strong headwinds. Butover time, they do help to level
the playing field and make iteasier for others. And I feel
we're in a very different worldtoday than women were in the
workplace 30 years ago, however,or 50 years ago, that doesn't
mean that it is still notwithout its challenges, and
women still face a much morecomplex career journey. As a mom
(17:36):
of four myself, you know, no oneever said to my husband. Wow,
how do you have a career withfour kids? Said no one ever. And
yet I have had people say to meall the time, have you had a
career with four children? Likehow do you do that. And so we'll
know that we've reached aquality when there's not more
questions like that going towomen, and he doesn't get a gold
(17:58):
medal every time he would go outwithout children without a wife
as though you knows, husband andfather of the Year award. So So
I think there's still a long wayto go. But I think as women,
while we shape our environment,and our environment shapes us,
we really need to be backingourselves all the time. And it
is uncomfortable. And actually,to your point earlier, Laura.
(18:20):
And now the key thing that wehave to do, and this isn't just
for women, this is for men, too,is we have to embrace
discomfort, we have to just getcomfortable being uncomfortable.
And I know myself when I'muncomfortable, and I'm
uncomfortable, you know, writingthis new book that's coming out
there, I feel vulnerable. Oh mygosh, what if it's not good
(18:42):
enough? I know, everyone's like,we look at women like Brene
Brown, or we look at others andgo, Oh, they're so amazing.
You're like, Oh, I'm never gonnameasure up. And just going, You
know what, I'm not gonna let myfear of having a negative
comparison or not being goodenough, stop me from doing the
very thing that I really feelcalled to do and lights me up.
And so I think it's true for allof us just daring to do the very
(19:04):
thing you're afraid to do. Don'twait for confidence. And over
time, it's that's the very thingthat helps build the confidence
and actually also amelioratethat impostor syndrome that also
many women struggle with, butmen too, but I think women most
of all,
Michael McCarthy (19:21):
Margie, I love this. And I want to get your
opinion on something thathappened to me about 30 years
ago, that helped me withcourage. And I was in a, I was
in a political demonstration inNew York City. And there was a
parade ambassador, this woman.
And so things are getting like alittle violent politically. And
this woman turned into a tiger.
(19:44):
And she stood this guy down whohad been really big, even
threatening physical violence.
And, and when she won, like, shewon the interaction. And I went
up to her because I was afraid.
I was like, 19 years old. I wentup to her and I said, Where did
you get the courage to do that?
And she goes, You can be so muchbraver on behalf of another
person than yourself. She goes,try it. And I did. And it is so
(20:06):
much easier for me to like bethat tiger standing up for other
people. And it kind of helped melearn how to advocate for
myself. And I'm wondering whatyour thoughts are on that as
maybe being a strategy or atechnique to, to kind of get
started with courage? What areyour thoughts,
Margie Warrell (20:27):
I think that's really powerful observation. And
it's true in that what gives usmeaning as humans, we're wired
for connection. And we oftenfeel far more purposeful and
passionate. When it's somethingthat's not just impacting
ourselves, I'm not just fightingfor myself, to have a better
(20:48):
life, or to have more rights andfreedom or to deal with an
injustice, I'm fighting on thebehalf of others. And maybe I'm
part of it, too. But you know,throughout history, we've seen
change happen when people havefought for something, and it's
way bigger than themselves. Thisis particularly the case and
there's so much research showingthis for women in the workplace
(21:10):
can often be quite bold. When itcomes to them advocating for
others on their team, forinstance, I didn't when I did my
doctorate around, I justdissertation was on women's
leadership and and it was oftenthe case because women are so
affiliative. And they'repassionate about others, and
often very team focused, how doI lift others? How do I help
(21:30):
others that they'll go, helpfullever for, for for for fighting
for their team, often moretimid, more cautious, not as
strong and assertive when it'sfor themselves. So I think we
need to everywhere, but I thinkoften when it comes to that
purpose, we can just feel firein the belly when there's
something I know for me as amum, over the years, I've
(21:51):
probably never been moreassertive and never fought
harder. When I felt there wassomething I really need to fight
for. For my child, it was itjust totally broke me out of
whether they liked me or not,whether they think I'm being
reasonable, like, damn it, I'mgoing to do this. And I think so
there's a lot to be said forthat. But I think for ourselves,
I often want to just help peoplerealize when you think, Oh, it's
(22:12):
just for me, so I get paidbetter, or I get a promotion?
No, actually, it's not just feejust for you, when you're
growing. And when you'restepping into something that's
bigger, and that stretches youand develops you. Everyone else
benefits as a benefit to the youbring your value in bigger ways
you have there's a ripple effectfrom that you're a role model in
(22:34):
bigger ways. And so I thinksometimes when we're thinking
it's just for us, we maybe needto expand our aperture because
actually, when we're growinginto our potential and really
living our purpose more fullyand boldly, at doesn't just
serve us that serves countlessothers too. That's
Laura Hamill (22:52):
such a good way to say that I hadn't really thought
about it in that way. And I Thatmakes so much sense. I'd love to
hear a little bit more aboutyour new book. Can you tell us
about the book, the current gapthat's coming out in two? I
Margie Warrell (23:03):
can thank you for asking. So yes, the courage
gap. Five steps for braveraction. And we've touched on a
couple of those things justtoday in our conversation comes
out with Berrett Koehler nextJanuary. But I wrote this book,
because it's been five yearssince my last book, you've got
this, which came out just as thewheels were falling off the
(23:24):
world in COVID. And I think aswe look, whether it's in
organizations, and I get tohave, you know, up close and
personal with what's going on inorganizations regularly, we
often oceans and leaders willoften say we have a high value
on candor, or collaboration orinnovation, or you know,
agility. And yet the verybehaviors people need to exhibit
(23:47):
to be living that value don'thappen, there's often a gap
between what we espouse as ourvalues and what people do. And
that's individual, and that'scollective as well. And
honestly, I truly believe thatfear creates that gap in some
way, shape, or form. Fearcreates the gap and courage is
what closes that gap. And whenwe can develop that muscle, that
(24:08):
skill, it's a learnable skill inourselves, and then help to
develop it in others. It unlocksimmense latent potential. And it
avoids the very decisions andbehaviors that ultimately can
leave people and teams andorganizations in more insecure
places. And I think as we lookat history, you can look at
(24:31):
organizations, you know, we lookat those that have you know,
flamed out, and we go well, whywas it that Kodak didn't get on
board with digital photography?
Why was it that blockbuster justdidn't see the writing on the
wall? Because people were lockedin their thinking and they
weren't even willing tochallenge to challenge their own
blanket thinking because peoplewere afraid, you know,
disasters, NASA etc. were afraidto speak up because there was so
(24:53):
much fear. And so I feelstrongly that all leadership's
starts with self leadership. Wecannot lead others, we cannot
instill courage in others, wecannot foster psychological
safety, which I was talking toAmy Edmondson, you know, and we
did, I did a podcast with her onmy own podcast. And you know,
she said psychological andsafety are two sides of the same
(25:15):
coin, we cannot foster that ifwe're not role modeling, and
coming from a place grounded inencouraging virtue in value in
our own lives. And so I wrotethis book, because I really
believe that the way that we canturn around negative situations,
the way we can elevateorganizations, honestly society
(25:39):
or the world, is by is by doingthe very thing sometimes were
afraid to do and getting out ofour own way, and really
challenging those deeply edgepatterns of thought and
behavior, that of fear, callingthe shots and going out what is
it I want to stand for that'sbigger than what I'm afraid of.
Tessa Misiaszek (26:01):
So as Margie, we wind down, I can't believe
we're already at the 30 minutemark. As as we as we kind of end
this I would love. This has beensuch an amazing conversation,
you have given us so manydifferent bits of advice and
things to think about. But ifyou were to kind of distill it
(26:23):
down to a piece of advice to wejust our last couple podcasts
ago, we didn't we worked with aGen Z panel. And these were
early careerists. They're juststarting out actually three
women, if you were to give thema piece of advice about how they
can kind of identify theseopportunities to cultivate
courage that they can start towork this muscle more regularly
(26:48):
than waiting for the kind of thebig event but how they can kind
of do this on a more regularbasis. What what advice or what
kinds of exercises or what wouldyou recommend to people who
really want to exercise thismuscle as as I do to be honest
with you after thisconversation? Yeah,
Margie Warrell (27:05):
well, I think firstly, tests are recognizing
is actually a muscle it is apsychological muscle. And
there's something called effecttolerance, where the more we do
something, the more we repeatit, the more tolerant we get of
feeling that way. And so it'slike bomb disposal experts,
right? Don't start with a livebomb, they start on a little
things, and they build up theirability to stay calm in a high
(27:29):
stakes situation. So that in thesame vein, I would say, some
people might be saying, youknow, I'm fine, I don't need to
be brave, I'm cool. I'velearned, okay, if I went through
every aspect of your life,instead, I want you to write it
out a 10 with how deeplysatisfied and positive you feel
about it. Any area that's notgetting a solid 8.59 I would say
(27:53):
okay, what's going on now?
What's going on in that aspectof your life that's only getting
a six or seven or two? Right?
There is an opportunity for youto act with courage. And like,
oh, I can't change this. Oh, butI couldn't do that. No, I would
say no, that's not true. And soin those gaps in our own life,
between the life we're livingand the life we want to be
(28:14):
living, it was is is silentinvitations for us to act with
courage. And so within that, andit's a question I asked myself
often, what would I do today, ifI was being brave. And sometimes
it's I would reach out to thatperson that I'm not sure is
interested in building arelationship with me, but I
really think they're cool. AndI'd love to catch up with them.
(28:35):
And I would just reach out tothem. And they'll either say
yes, or they'll say no, but I'llrisk the rejection. I'm going to
push back and say no to thatinvitation, even though I know
that person's probably going tofeel a little bit of
disappointment. Or I'm going togive that feedback to someone
who I know might react a littlenegatively, but honestly, it
lacks a lack of integrity and meas a leader, if I don't give
(28:55):
that feedback, because I seethere's an opportunity for that
person to develop in that area.
And I think they're blind to howthey're coming across and
showing up for others andsabotaging themselves. So
obviously, it's different foreverybody. But I would say
continually just askingyourself, what would I do today
if I was being brave, in my job,in my team, as a parent, as a
(29:15):
partner, or even with my goals,if I've taken on running the New
York Marathon, this November,and I have never run a marathon
and I grew up with a label on myhead that my dad gave me a
bumblefoot that because I wasuncoordinated. And so here I am
in my 50s going, You know what,I am going to run a marathon.
And let me tell you it's a lotof steps outside my comfort zone
(29:38):
but it's like you know what, Ijust don't want to go to my I
always wanted to do one and I'mlike I now I'm going to go to my
grave knowing I did it. Just oneI haven't done it yet. But you
know that I'm certainlycommitted to doing it. So yeah,
Tessa, I would just say askingyourself, why do I need to be
braver and anytime there's anarea of your life that's not as
you'd like it to be? II inthere, it's calling for courage.
Tessa Misiaszek (30:05):
I absolutely love that. I actually had an
answer to every single one ofthose questions you just asked,
as far as you know, who's thatperson was that feedback? And
congratulations on running yourfirst marathon. I just ran
London in April. Good for you.
Yeah. So it's, it is an amazing,amazing experience in New York
is an amazing marathon. Sowishing you all the luck. Are
(30:28):
you running it for charity?
Margie Warrell (30:31):
Yes, I'm running it for the team team rave
Christopher Reeve Foundation.
Wonderful. And yeah, my brotherhas paraplegia. And so I
actually just posted an articleon LinkedIn about it because he
just came to visit me fromAustralia. And I, I he's really
inspired me with his attitude.
But the reef Foundation does alot of great research into
(30:51):
spinal injury, how to help thoselive with it. And also how do we
how do we help people who haveinjuries ultimately get mobility
back over time? So yes, that andyou know what, it helps me in my
training that I'm running it notjust for me to go, Hey, I did a
marathon. That's cool. Butactually, I love that I'm
running it to help people whoare living with disability and
(31:13):
spinal injury.
Tessa Misiaszek (31:13):
So yeah, you also have to be brave every day,
every day,
Margie Warrell (31:17):
every day. It's very, very inspiring. Yeah.
Tessa Misiaszek (31:20):
Wonderful.
Margie, this has been amazing.
Thank you so much for joiningus. This has just been a
fantastic conversation. We're soappreciative and excited to read
the coverage gap, which comesout next January. Maybe we could
have you back to talk a littlebit more about the book, then.
Margie Warrell (31:35):
I would love that. Thank you. Thank you. It's
been a pleasure to be on withyou all.
Michael McCarthy (31:39):
Thank you very much. We hope you've enjoyed
this episode. If you'd like tohear future episodes, be sure to
subscribe to the happy at workpodcast, and leave us a review
with your thoughts.
Tessa Misiaszek (31:54):
Are you interested in speaking on a
future episode or want tocollaborate with us? Let us know
you can send us an email atadmin at happy at work
podcast.com And
Laura Hamill (32:06):
lastly, follow us on LinkedIn or Twitter for even
more happiness. See you soon
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