March 26, 2025 • 25 mins
Eddie Pate shares insights from his career leading diversity initiatives at major companies and his new book on inclusive leadership practices that create belonging. He explains how small daily actions create lasting ripple effects that transform workplace culture through accessible, practical strategies.
• Eddie's journey from sociology doctorate to diversity leadership at Microsoft, Starbucks, and Amazon
• Balancing corporate leadership with prioritizing family responsibilities
• The 2IL model for inclusive leadership rooted in social psychology
• How "spending your privilege" creates visibility and opportunity for underrepresented voices
• Making inclusion accessible through daily practices rather than overwhelming initiatives
• Empathy as the foundation for creating truly inclusive workplaces
• Navigating the current DEI backlash while staying committed to the work
• The business case for inclusion: better talent attraction, retention, and innovation
To stay connected and continue the conversation, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.
And don't forget to check out our previous episodes for more tips and strategies to boost your workplace happiness. You can find them on your favorite podcast platform or on our website.
If you have any questions, comments, or topic suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you!
Stay inspired, stay motivated, and stay happy at work!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome back for another episode of the Happy at
Work podcast with Laura Tessaand Michael.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Each week we have thoughtful conversations with
leaders, founders and authorsabout happiness at work.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation.
Enjoy the show.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Welcome to the Happy at Work podcast Today.
I'm so excited to have EddiePate joining us today.
He is a consultant, he is aauthor, he's a speaker.
He's a lot of wonderful,wonderful things.
He's also my friend and I'mjust so glad you're here, eddie.
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
Laura, oh my goodness , thank you for having me, and
you should have said I'm yourfriend first.
That's the most important partof this whole thing.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
I'd do anything for you, sister, you know that for
sure.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Right back at you, eddie.
We go way back, right.
I mean, I don't even know when,but we worked together at
Microsoft for a long time yeah,decades.
This is the sad thing, it's notyears, you start to count in
decades.
So there's been so many coolthings that you've been up to.
So why don't you tell for ourlisteners, tell us a little bit
about your career journey andwhat you're up to now?
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Sure Happy to do so.
So it's interesting.
I think my career journeyactually goes back to the point
when I had a six-month-oldlittle girl.
I was married, I was trying tofigure out what I was going to
do after a very quick andunfortunate end to a football
career, I ended up going to gradschool and starting the
(01:57):
doctoral program at Universityof Washington where I studied
sociology compared to race andethnic relations and social
psych.
It was a major inflection pointfor us to go.
I had a second kid in 98.
And then my career journey tookanother point where I had to
decide what I wanted to do.
Do I go into academia after Ifinished my doctorate in 2000?
Or do I go corporate?
(02:18):
And because of who I met andwho you engage with and, as I
like to say, who's in yourkitchen and you have their
voices influencing what you doand who you are, I ended up
going the corporate route, which, to this very day, I'm actually
quite happy I did.
And I started at Microsoft,where I was and I think you know
this, laura I was the veryfirst person hired outside of HR
(02:40):
to be a diversity manager, aswe were called back then, and so
I worked for Charles Stevens,who ran the Enterprise and
Partner Group, a global salesorganization, and when you think
about how you can helpinfluence people in terms of
inclusion, diversity and equityfor a global sales organization
was mind-blowing, was super coolway to start your career.
And then I made several moves,going to Starbucks right after
(03:04):
Microsoft and progressivelyhigher and higher roles, and I
had even a little consultingstint between Starbucks and my
next gig.
And then from Starbucks, Iended up going to Avanade as
vice president of inclusion,diversity and equity.
And then I culminated mycorporate career at Amazon,
where I led diversity effortsfor worldwide operations and, as
(03:24):
I like to tell people and joke,it was this 18-person team I
put together for this littleorganization that any given time
of the year, could be a millionpeople, literally a million
people.
So it was talk about we shouldhave a discussion of how you
scale business success across amillion-person organization,
that global.
So then I retired from Amazonback in 2020, in March, actually
(03:50):
, right before COVID went crazy.
How, how convenient and nicewas that?
Yeah?
So I I left corporate and thenand July of 2020, I you know,
you know got my consultingbusiness going again.
I hung a shingle, I startedspeaking and writing and
consulting and then in 2024, asyou were saying, I published a
(04:12):
book on daily practices ofinclusive leaders, and that's
kind of my trajectory andthere's been always a parallel
path along those lines.
I love being a dad, I love beinga husband, and so I have had
athletic kids.
I was an athlete, so my otherpath was how involved could I be
in their lives as much as theywanted me to?
Until they didn't and they'rejust like Dad.
(04:35):
You know what?
I think it's time for you tostop coaching.
Thank you very much.
But you can be on the sidelineif you're quiet, and so you know
, then I kind of took that roleand so, and to this day, I, you
know, my favorite role is in anenvironment, if you will, is
family.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
I love that and the fact that you're you're
prioritizing the family overperiod work.
And I had a friend at Harvardwho said I asked him if he ever
wanted to go to the Supremecourt and he said something
along the lines I gave it like adilemma.
It was you can argue a casebefore the Supreme Court or go
to your kid's show, like aballet show or something he said
oh, I'm going to go to the show.
(05:14):
I said why he goes, because mykids are only going to grow up
once, and the Supreme Court willalways be there.
I love your priorities.
Yeah, yeah, I love it.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
It's absolutely right .
I mean, I, honestly, in mycorporate career I spent 18
years primarily executive level,and not counting a couple,
consulting things and consultingpart.
I think I missed one baseballtournament my son had from
little league through highschool and I missed maybe one
soccer game or tournament mydaughter did.
(05:39):
She played all the way throughcollege.
In fact, at one point Idiverted a trip back for a
business trip where I flew intoChicago instead of coming home
and I drove the van for thesoccer team and set up a dinner
at my boss's house who madepasta as a team dinner the night
before a tournament game.
Because that's what you do,that's what I thought was the
(06:00):
right thing to do, and I wouldnever change anything in the way
I approached making family apriority because it's all good,
right?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
I love that.
I wish you were my dad, but Ithink I might be older than you.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
I don't think so.
I don't think you're older thanI am, and you should talk to my
kids first before you do that.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
We'll compare birth certificates later, but I think
I might have you Great greatWell, we heard that you've
written a new book.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
We'd love to hear about it?
Speaker 4 (06:29):
What's it about?
So my book's on the dailypractices of inclusive leaders,
a guide to building a culture ofbelonging, and so what I really
wanted to do and I'm aco-author with someone who
worked for me at Amazon and thatI actually knew at Microsoft,
jonathan Stutz, is the co-author.
So I just want to be clear I'llrefer to it as my book, but
(06:50):
there's a co-author thinghappening there too.
It's just easier that way.
You know, my book is reallyabout how to teach leaders to
lead inclusively and to haveimpact every single day, but do
so in a way that it's notoverwhelming.
And see, and that's to me that'sthe secret, because over the
years it's been burned into mybrain that over the years people
(07:13):
have come to me and said acouple of things hey, what are
the three big things I can do?
That will just be perfect.
And then in my mind I'm goingyou're crazy, there's no big
three things you can do.
It's gonna take more than that,right?
And the other thing is, peoplehave said to me look, I am so
busy, my plate is so full, butwhat you're doing is important,
(07:34):
but how can I make all of itwork?
And so I think I've been slowlybut surely hatching this notion
of daily practices, or pebblesthat you drop that cause ripples
, that cause other people todrop, pebbles which cause
ripples, which cause otherpeople to drop, pebbles that
cause ripples.
And it's the aggregation ofthose pebbles and ripples that
lead to systemic change.
That's sustainable, right,because you're changing.
(07:55):
You're literally not banking 90in a plane.
You're changing a degree at atime and it could be a fast
change that you go in adifferent direction.
That's sustainable.
So this is what I.
This is kind of the message thatI've been hearing from leaders,
and so my book is has somestructural pieces to it.
I introduced a 2IL model, aninclusive leadership model that
(08:16):
I talked about.
That's rooted in my socialpsychology doctoral work.
But what I spend the entirebook doing is looking at the
life cycle of an employee, fromthe moment you are even
introduced to your company.
You know in your company whereyou're moving around in the
company, you know yourrepresentation, your promotion,
(08:38):
your talent management pieces,and even to the time when you're
exiting employees and have alead.
I look at every aspect of thelife cycle of the employee and
we give daily practices that canhelp you improve as a leader
and lead inclusively, and that'skind of a high level nuts and
bolts in the book.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, it's such a good book, so I really like it
and I like the circle model thatyou have in the book is so
straightforward and it allowsyou to kind of go as deep.
Or, as you know, if you don'thave as much time, you don't
have to go as deep, but it makesit accessible, and I think that
this is something theaccessibility to big ideas and
(09:18):
hard things is like really whatpeople are asking for.
So, yeah, I'm curious about whatare some of the things that
you're hearing from people whoare reading your book and some
of the ways maybe they're usingwhat they've learned.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
Well, what's really, what's very cool?
So, even when you look at mybook, it's got tabs, it's got
dog ears and so, to your point,what I'm hearing from people is
what I love is I don't have tostart on page one and work all
the way through to 299 to reallyunderstand what, to get what
pebbles I can drop for talentmanagement and let's see what
(09:52):
they can do.
You can literally go there, dog, ear it and do it.
That's why we literally calledit a guide right, because it's
like a field guide, right?
If you have a bird field guideor that kind of thing and you
want to learn about therufous-sided tohi and you don't
have to read about everything,you just go to the section on
(10:12):
the rufous-sided tohi and that'swhat you do, right, and so
that's what we.
So I'm hearing from people thatthey love that.
The other things that I a coupleother things that I'm hearing
from people which I love becausethat was the mission is it is
taking a complex topic with alot of nuance, but making it
simple, and so, at every turn,with Jonathan and with our
editor and with Danielle Goodmanwho was our writing coach, it
(10:39):
for me it was okay.
I hear you, but where's thenuance that has to come out?
Because we can't make it sosimple that you don't really
understand what you're talkingabout, but not so complex that
you need a doctor to understandright.
And so that was the nut that Ineeded to make sure that we were
cracking every single time.
And so I'm constantly saying,no, okay, we got to be a little
bit more nuanced, but not socomplicated.
(11:00):
How we can do this and I'mgetting that from people saying
this is really I really likethis because it's simple, it's
digestible, it's doable everysingle day, yet it's going to
have an impact.
So I'm hearing those kinds ofthings from people, which I love
.
Actually, what's interesting?
People love the 2IL model thatyou're talking about because
(11:22):
it's doing exactly what Iintended it to do, and this is
something that has evolved overmy corporate career and it's the
core of my inclusive leadershiptraining that I do and what
it's really set to do is to giveyou a notion of how you show up
in interaction, and that'ssuper important to know, because
(11:42):
how you show up one-to-one,one-to-few, one-to-many, matters
a lot, and you're influencingthat situation, and every time
you meet with someone, it's aninteraction.
It's not just stagnant, rightit's.
You're influencing them, you'rebeing influenced by them.
They're influencing you.
No-transcript.
(12:23):
Understand how they show upbefore they can help others, and
I make that really clear.
Love that and I have twoquestions.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
The first one is really easy, because I think we
forgot to mention this.
Can you tell our listeners?
Speaker 4 (12:34):
the name of your book so they could read it.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Of course I will.
It's Daily Practices ofInclusive Leaders, A Guide to
Building a Culture of Belonging.
And actually the first productthey worked with was Knights in
Shining Armor over 100 years agoin Germany, and they've just
stayed, they've grown, they'redoing other things, but yeah,
they help people make.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
Knights in Shining Armor.
And what could I have said Cool, right.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
I guess someone had to do that and I'm wondering
what could I have said to thenew managers that had all these
new?
Speaker 4 (13:15):
hires.
What could they have done tomake all these new people who
are excited and nervous, wherewe could have taken some
strategies from your book tomake them feel like they belong,
because that first day isreally important.
The first day is superimportant, right?
And I think the best thing thatthey could do and we talk about
in our book is you want to makesure that they're not just
(13:37):
people who have a seat at thetable right, and we talk about
this a lot, but actually it'simportant that they're sitting
at the table, but what's moreimportant is that they have a
voice and that they are heard,and so that's how you begin down
the journey from firstintroduction and organization to
belonging is really make surethat those employees so I would
have said right away is like webrought you here not to sit
(13:59):
around and watch us do this work, because somehow we've been in
this industry for all theseyears and you haven't.
We want to hear from you.
We want to create a speak upculture where you feel
comfortable, regardless of who'sin the room, to give an idea,
to push back on something youdon't agree with.
Or, more importantly, when youthink about five generations in
the workplace.
Tell me what I'm doing.
(14:21):
That's really different thanthe current customer base.
I'm a boomer, so I've beendoing this like this forever.
I'm a millennial and I've beendoing this, so talk to me a
little bit about what you'redoing.
So, in other words, you reallywant to make sure that people
are not just seen, but they'reheard and they actually have a
voice right and that people acttoo, and I think that's super
(14:48):
important.
The other piece that is part ofwhat I think I would have told
those leaders is they need tounderstand that inclusion, the
pathway to inclusion, is empathy, and so that those leaders in
the room need to understand thatthese are people, not workers,
and they need to make sure thatthey understand that right Is
that they have lives and theywant to bring their whole selves
to work, and sometimes it'smessy, sometimes it's not good,
sometimes it's great, but youhave to be empathetic before you
(15:10):
can create inclusion, andinclusion are activities and
things you do to make theworkplace environment work.
It's not a feeling.
A feeling is belonging.
How do they feel as a result ofthe empathetic leadership that
creates inclusion and inclusivemoments for people?
So that's what I would havetold them is just make it really
clear that this is what we wantand that we should think about
(15:33):
that.
You have a voice here, and thenhow you create voice is any
number of ways.
Be willing to spend yourprivilege, for example this is
one of the things we talk aboutin our book and I love this
notion as quickly as you canwhen someone is ready.
If in the workplace, forexample, michael, let's say, you
(15:53):
are the boss, you're the onewho's always the one speaking at
the meetings and you're talkingto the senior leadership team
and you're talking to thecreative team, and then you have
a couple of the new people withyou, why don't you spend your
privilege and say, hey, you knowwhat I normally do this part of
it.
Actually, you know Ana's goingto do it.
She's new to the team, but Iwant you to hear her.
Her voice is powerful, it'sreally cool what she brings, and
(16:16):
so on.
That very moment, what you'vedone is drop a pebble that
causes a ripple in that room,because now she has visibility,
she has an opportunity toimpress.
You haven't set her up becauseyou prepared her for this and
you've done this, and whatyou've shown other leaders in
the room is like wow, that'sreally very cool.
So maybe the next meeting theygo to or the next big
opportunity, they createvisibility for someone else and
(16:36):
before long that becomes justthe norm of an organization.
So these are the kinds ofthings we talk about.
Super simple, it's like createspace for someone else,
visibility, drop that pebble andboom, and then guess what?
Ana feels like Wow, they'rejust not blowing smoke.
They really do want me to feellike I have a voice and I belong
and I really like this place.
You know what I'm going to do.
(16:57):
I know someone who's superfabulous.
I'm going to tell them thatthey should come work here too.
So there's return on investmentto doing this, because now you
get access to greater talent.
You see what I'm saying.
She'll stay longer, you havehigher retention rates, so
there's some ROI to this too.
But those are some of thethings.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
If that's what you were asking, that my book talks
about Thank you so much.
Those are awesome.
I love that term spend yourprivilege.
That's such a good one right,yes, so I think we'd be remiss
without recognizing all thestuff that's happening in the
world regarding DEI and just howhard it is and how hard, I'm
(17:36):
sure, the space that you'reworking in is, and so maybe I
mean we could go on and on aboutthat, I'm sure, and so I'm
curious about any thoughts youhave on that.
But I also I want to get your,I guess, more specific thoughts
around this idea.
I'm seeing a lot of people kindof switch the language away
from DEI and say let's just callit fairness, and I'm really
(18:01):
curious about how you thinkabout that.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
Yeah, you know what?
I literally was on a podcastyesterday for the Institute of
Sustainable Diversity andInclusion, where it was asked
the expert and that was thewhole focus of this, and there
were four of us on the panellike where do you sit with all
this?
So I'll answer high level yourfirst part of the question.
Honestly, it is terrifying, itis horrible.
(18:24):
I don't think we've seen theworst of it and I'm not, by
nature, very pessimistic ornegative.
I'm very positive, I know, butI do think there's a lot of
turmoil and we haven't seen theworst part for DEI.
It's just going to get worsebefore it starts getting better.
The wonderful thing is we areseeing resistance, we are seeing
people protest, we are seeingsome court decisions that are
(18:46):
good, that are blocking some ofthe craziness that's associated
with DEI and some of what'shappening over there.
So think about it a lot, talkabout it a lot, and we can get
into some more of the details ifyou want to there as well.
But one of the things thatyou're alluding to is people are
finding ways of getting out ofthe crosshairs.
Right, some companies aresaying I'm in the middle of the
(19:08):
crosshairs, I don't care, I'mgoing to poke my fingers in
their eyeballs to bring it onright.
So there are companies doingthat.
There are companies thatprobably didn't want to even be
in this space and they weredoing it to you know, because
they felt like they had tobecause because Ahmaud Arbery
and George Floyd and and youknow, breonna Taylor were
murdered and a bunch of peopleupset.
So I guess I better jump on thebandwagon, right?
(19:29):
They're the ones hopping offthe bandwagon and they don't
care, and that's fine.
You know there's going to bethose.
Now there's this group ofpeople who want to double down,
want to keep doing this work,but they want to find a way of
how do you take that crosshairsaway from my company and still
do this work, but fly under theradar?
And I actually don't.
I look my bent way.
(19:51):
I like I'd rather step up toeto toe, be really intentional
and say bring it on that.
Right, if you don't want to behere, because I'm creating
access for everyone, not justpeople, not just underestimated
groups, but everyone whitepeople too right, if you don't
want to do that, see ya.
But there are a lot of peoplewho are saying look, I love this
, but I'm not going to call itDEI, I'm not going to even call
(20:12):
it inclusion.
In fact, I think even fairnesshas become surfaced amongst the
group that are attacking this tosay this is what they mean.
So people are, people are, youknow, you know doing, you know
they're finding different waysof labeling it around humanness
or people, people connectednessor you know those kinds of
things.
I honestly great, because youknow what's most important is we
(20:35):
keep doing the work and that wekeep creating access for people
who don't have access.
That we create pushing a realnarrative, that DEI, or as I
call it, id&e, is about creatingspace for creativity and
innovations.
Everyone benefits your bottomline benefits, every employee
(20:56):
benefits, and I mean everyemployee.
Right, the pie is not zero sum.
In my book I talk about.
The pie is something that cancontinue to grow and the more
you do ID&E or DEI, or humanconnectedness, whatever you call
it, the pie is just going toget bigger.
And here's the point that I'llmake to people who are listening
, who are making decisionsNothing's changed from two years
(21:20):
ago, when you jumped on thebandwagon because you know it's
the right thing to do and it'sthe business smart thing to do.
Nothing's changed.
Only thing that's changed ispeople have co-opted the term,
have used a wedge mentality todivide people and have co-opted
a term in a way that doesn'tmake sense.
Ei has never been about blackpeople and women, as I'll
(21:40):
flippantly say.
Not about black people andwomen.
It's about everyone.
However, in our culture, beingwhite and being male does give
you advantage.
So we should make sure we closethat gap and where it's
creating an unearned derailmentor wall or something against
underestimated groups, we shouldfix that.
(22:01):
But guess what?
We don't fix that.
To get at the white men in thissituation.
We encourage them to be part ofthe solution, part of the
decision, because diversity isfor everyone.
See what I'm saying, and sothat's what's really important.
And you could take the sameargument in India.
It's not going to be about race, it's going to be about color,
it's going to be about caste,it's going to be about gender,
(22:21):
it's going to be about religion.
You go to Japan it's not goingto be about race, it's going to
be about cultural difference andit's going to be about gender,
it's going to be about age.
And so you have this.
You have around the globe,different dimensions of
diversity that we have toconvince people and show.
Show them that if you createinclusive, accessible strategies
(22:43):
I don't know products,everything everyone benefits.
This has never, ever, ever beenabout creating advantage for
some groups at the expense andthe disadvantage of others.
Never been about that.
They just say it is becausethat's how you get people to get
fired up and angry so you canmove them as pawns in your
(23:03):
political leanings or whateveryou want to do.
We need to take back the powerof that, rebrand what ID&E
really is and humanize thestories.
And I'm all fired up.
I'm on a soapbox.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
You can't see it, you are.
I love it so much, so good.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
But that's what we need to do.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Sorry, Completely.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Eddie, I'll stop.
I'll take a drink.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
No no, it's so good.
Speaker 4 (23:26):
My chihuahua that's sitting in the room is just like
hey, you're going right now.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Daddy's awake.
Daddy's firing up Daddy's awake.
So, eddie, I mean I cannot.
Even time is already up andthis has been so amazing.
I feel like we can keep goingfor another hour or so.
Can you just share with ourlisteners how they can learn
more about you or more aboutyour book as we wrap?
Speaker 4 (23:48):
up?
Sure, thank you, I appreciateit.
So I'm an open book, right?
Linkedin's a good place thatyou can just find me on LinkedIn
.
But my website for my book iswwwinclusivepebblescom,
appropriately right.
Or you can go toeddiepate-speakingcom, and
(24:09):
that's my website for mybusiness.
Look up on LinkedIn, justconnect with me.
I'll give you my email, my cellphone I don't care, because we
got to just connect and keepthis work going, but I think
that's how you can get ahold ofme.
And Inclusive Pebbles is mybook website.
The eddypaid-speaking is mybusiness website.
They're linked together.
(24:31):
Please reach out if I can helpwith anything, if you need
someone to come in and speak ordo this, or just.
You know you need to run someideas by.
You know I'm we.
This work is too important notto make ourselves successful.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
That's awesome.
Thank you so much.
Thanks so much for joining usand talking with us, and I just
love your work.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Thank you for having me.
Michael, Laura, Thank you you.
You two are awesome, I lovethis so fun.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Thank you so much for joining us.
A great day.
Bye, everybody.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
We hope you've enjoyed this episode.
If you'd like to hear futureepisodes, be sure to subscribe
to the Happy at Work podcast andleave us a review with your
thoughts.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Are you interested in speaking on a future episode or
want to collaborate with us?
Let us know.
You can send us an email atadmin at happyatworkpodcastcom.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
And, lastly, follow us on LinkedIn or Twitter for
even more happiness.
See you soon.
Welcome back for another episode of the Happy at
Work podcast with Laura Tessaand Michael.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Each week we have thoughtful conversations with
leaders, founders and authorsabout happiness at work.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation.
Enjoy the show.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Welcome to the Happy at Work podcast Today.
I'm so excited to have EddiePate joining us today.
He is a consultant, he is aauthor, he's a speaker.
He's a lot of wonderful,wonderful things.
He's also my friend and I'mjust so glad you're here, eddie.
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
Laura, oh my goodness , thank you for having me, and
you should have said I'm yourfriend first.
That's the most important partof this whole thing.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
I'd do anything for you, sister, you know that for
sure.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Right back at you, eddie.
We go way back, right.
I mean, I don't even know when,but we worked together at
Microsoft for a long time yeah,decades.
This is the sad thing, it's notyears, you start to count in
decades.
So there's been so many coolthings that you've been up to.
So why don't you tell for ourlisteners, tell us a little bit
about your career journey andwhat you're up to now?
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Sure Happy to do so.
So it's interesting.
I think my career journeyactually goes back to the point
when I had a six-month-oldlittle girl.
I was married, I was trying tofigure out what I was going to
do after a very quick andunfortunate end to a football
career, I ended up going to gradschool and starting the
(01:57):
doctoral program at Universityof Washington where I studied
sociology compared to race andethnic relations and social
psych.
It was a major inflection pointfor us to go.
I had a second kid in 98.
And then my career journey tookanother point where I had to
decide what I wanted to do.
Do I go into academia after Ifinished my doctorate in 2000?
Or do I go corporate?
(02:18):
And because of who I met andwho you engage with and, as I
like to say, who's in yourkitchen and you have their
voices influencing what you doand who you are, I ended up
going the corporate route, which, to this very day, I'm actually
quite happy I did.
And I started at Microsoft,where I was and I think you know
this, laura I was the veryfirst person hired outside of HR
(02:40):
to be a diversity manager, aswe were called back then, and so
I worked for Charles Stevens,who ran the Enterprise and
Partner Group, a global salesorganization, and when you think
about how you can helpinfluence people in terms of
inclusion, diversity and equityfor a global sales organization
was mind-blowing, was super coolway to start your career.
And then I made several moves,going to Starbucks right after
(03:04):
Microsoft and progressivelyhigher and higher roles, and I
had even a little consultingstint between Starbucks and my
next gig.
And then from Starbucks, Iended up going to Avanade as
vice president of inclusion,diversity and equity.
And then I culminated mycorporate career at Amazon,
where I led diversity effortsfor worldwide operations and, as
(03:24):
I like to tell people and joke,it was this 18-person team I
put together for this littleorganization that any given time
of the year, could be a millionpeople, literally a million
people.
So it was talk about we shouldhave a discussion of how you
scale business success across amillion-person organization,
that global.
So then I retired from Amazonback in 2020, in March, actually
(03:50):
, right before COVID went crazy.
How, how convenient and nicewas that?
Yeah?
So I I left corporate and thenand July of 2020, I you know,
you know got my consultingbusiness going again.
I hung a shingle, I startedspeaking and writing and
consulting and then in 2024, asyou were saying, I published a
(04:12):
book on daily practices ofinclusive leaders, and that's
kind of my trajectory andthere's been always a parallel
path along those lines.
I love being a dad, I love beinga husband, and so I have had
athletic kids.
I was an athlete, so my otherpath was how involved could I be
in their lives as much as theywanted me to?
Until they didn't and they'rejust like Dad.
(04:35):
You know what?
I think it's time for you tostop coaching.
Thank you very much.
But you can be on the sidelineif you're quiet, and so you know
, then I kind of took that roleand so, and to this day, I, you
know, my favorite role is in anenvironment, if you will, is
family.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
I love that and the fact that you're you're
prioritizing the family overperiod work.
And I had a friend at Harvardwho said I asked him if he ever
wanted to go to the Supremecourt and he said something
along the lines I gave it like adilemma.
It was you can argue a casebefore the Supreme Court or go
to your kid's show, like aballet show or something he said
oh, I'm going to go to the show.
(05:14):
I said why he goes, because mykids are only going to grow up
once, and the Supreme Court willalways be there.
I love your priorities.
Yeah, yeah, I love it.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
It's absolutely right .
I mean, I, honestly, in mycorporate career I spent 18
years primarily executive level,and not counting a couple,
consulting things and consultingpart.
I think I missed one baseballtournament my son had from
little league through highschool and I missed maybe one
soccer game or tournament mydaughter did.
(05:39):
She played all the way throughcollege.
In fact, at one point Idiverted a trip back for a
business trip where I flew intoChicago instead of coming home
and I drove the van for thesoccer team and set up a dinner
at my boss's house who madepasta as a team dinner the night
before a tournament game.
Because that's what you do,that's what I thought was the
(06:00):
right thing to do, and I wouldnever change anything in the way
I approached making family apriority because it's all good,
right?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
I love that.
I wish you were my dad, but Ithink I might be older than you.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
I don't think so.
I don't think you're older thanI am, and you should talk to my
kids first before you do that.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
We'll compare birth certificates later, but I think
I might have you Great greatWell, we heard that you've
written a new book.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
We'd love to hear about it?
Speaker 4 (06:29):
What's it about?
So my book's on the dailypractices of inclusive leaders,
a guide to building a culture ofbelonging, and so what I really
wanted to do and I'm aco-author with someone who
worked for me at Amazon and thatI actually knew at Microsoft,
jonathan Stutz, is the co-author.
So I just want to be clear I'llrefer to it as my book, but
(06:50):
there's a co-author thinghappening there too.
It's just easier that way.
You know, my book is reallyabout how to teach leaders to
lead inclusively and to haveimpact every single day, but do
so in a way that it's notoverwhelming.
And see, and that's to me that'sthe secret, because over the
years it's been burned into mybrain that over the years people
(07:13):
have come to me and said acouple of things hey, what are
the three big things I can do?
That will just be perfect.
And then in my mind I'm goingyou're crazy, there's no big
three things you can do.
It's gonna take more than that,right?
And the other thing is, peoplehave said to me look, I am so
busy, my plate is so full, butwhat you're doing is important,
(07:34):
but how can I make all of itwork?
And so I think I've been slowlybut surely hatching this notion
of daily practices, or pebblesthat you drop that cause ripples
, that cause other people todrop, pebbles which cause
ripples, which cause otherpeople to drop, pebbles that
cause ripples.
And it's the aggregation ofthose pebbles and ripples that
lead to systemic change.
That's sustainable, right,because you're changing.
(07:55):
You're literally not banking 90in a plane.
You're changing a degree at atime and it could be a fast
change that you go in adifferent direction.
That's sustainable.
So this is what I.
This is kind of the message thatI've been hearing from leaders,
and so my book is has somestructural pieces to it.
I introduced a 2IL model, aninclusive leadership model that
(08:16):
I talked about.
That's rooted in my socialpsychology doctoral work.
But what I spend the entirebook doing is looking at the
life cycle of an employee, fromthe moment you are even
introduced to your company.
You know in your company whereyou're moving around in the
company, you know yourrepresentation, your promotion,
(08:38):
your talent management pieces,and even to the time when you're
exiting employees and have alead.
I look at every aspect of thelife cycle of the employee and
we give daily practices that canhelp you improve as a leader
and lead inclusively, and that'skind of a high level nuts and
bolts in the book.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, it's such a good book, so I really like it
and I like the circle model thatyou have in the book is so
straightforward and it allowsyou to kind of go as deep.
Or, as you know, if you don'thave as much time, you don't
have to go as deep, but it makesit accessible, and I think that
this is something theaccessibility to big ideas and
(09:18):
hard things is like really whatpeople are asking for.
So, yeah, I'm curious about whatare some of the things that
you're hearing from people whoare reading your book and some
of the ways maybe they're usingwhat they've learned.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
Well, what's really, what's very cool?
So, even when you look at mybook, it's got tabs, it's got
dog ears and so, to your point,what I'm hearing from people is
what I love is I don't have tostart on page one and work all
the way through to 299 to reallyunderstand what, to get what
pebbles I can drop for talentmanagement and let's see what
(09:52):
they can do.
You can literally go there, dog, ear it and do it.
That's why we literally calledit a guide right, because it's
like a field guide, right?
If you have a bird field guideor that kind of thing and you
want to learn about therufous-sided tohi and you don't
have to read about everything,you just go to the section on
(10:12):
the rufous-sided tohi and that'swhat you do, right, and so
that's what we.
So I'm hearing from people thatthey love that.
The other things that I a coupleother things that I'm hearing
from people which I love becausethat was the mission is it is
taking a complex topic with alot of nuance, but making it
simple, and so, at every turn,with Jonathan and with our
editor and with Danielle Goodmanwho was our writing coach, it
(10:39):
for me it was okay.
I hear you, but where's thenuance that has to come out?
Because we can't make it sosimple that you don't really
understand what you're talkingabout, but not so complex that
you need a doctor to understandright.
And so that was the nut that Ineeded to make sure that we were
cracking every single time.
And so I'm constantly saying,no, okay, we got to be a little
bit more nuanced, but not socomplicated.
(11:00):
How we can do this and I'mgetting that from people saying
this is really I really likethis because it's simple, it's
digestible, it's doable everysingle day, yet it's going to
have an impact.
So I'm hearing those kinds ofthings from people, which I love
.
Actually, what's interesting?
People love the 2IL model thatyou're talking about because
(11:22):
it's doing exactly what Iintended it to do, and this is
something that has evolved overmy corporate career and it's the
core of my inclusive leadershiptraining that I do and what
it's really set to do is to giveyou a notion of how you show up
in interaction, and that'ssuper important to know, because
(11:42):
how you show up one-to-one,one-to-few, one-to-many, matters
a lot, and you're influencingthat situation, and every time
you meet with someone, it's aninteraction.
It's not just stagnant, rightit's.
You're influencing them, you'rebeing influenced by them.
They're influencing you.
No-transcript.
(12:23):
Understand how they show upbefore they can help others, and
I make that really clear.
Love that and I have twoquestions.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
The first one is really easy, because I think we
forgot to mention this.
Can you tell our listeners?
Speaker 4 (12:34):
the name of your book so they could read it.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Of course I will.
It's Daily Practices ofInclusive Leaders, A Guide to
Building a Culture of Belonging.
And actually the first productthey worked with was Knights in
Shining Armor over 100 years agoin Germany, and they've just
stayed, they've grown, they'redoing other things, but yeah,
they help people make.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
Knights in Shining Armor.
And what could I have said Cool, right.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
I guess someone had to do that and I'm wondering
what could I have said to thenew managers that had all these
new?
Speaker 4 (13:15):
hires.
What could they have done tomake all these new people who
are excited and nervous, wherewe could have taken some
strategies from your book tomake them feel like they belong,
because that first day isreally important.
The first day is superimportant, right?
And I think the best thing thatthey could do and we talk about
in our book is you want to makesure that they're not just
(13:37):
people who have a seat at thetable right, and we talk about
this a lot, but actually it'simportant that they're sitting
at the table, but what's moreimportant is that they have a
voice and that they are heard,and so that's how you begin down
the journey from firstintroduction and organization to
belonging is really make surethat those employees so I would
have said right away is like webrought you here not to sit
(13:59):
around and watch us do this work, because somehow we've been in
this industry for all theseyears and you haven't.
We want to hear from you.
We want to create a speak upculture where you feel
comfortable, regardless of who'sin the room, to give an idea,
to push back on something youdon't agree with.
Or, more importantly, when youthink about five generations in
the workplace.
Tell me what I'm doing.
(14:21):
That's really different thanthe current customer base.
I'm a boomer, so I've beendoing this like this forever.
I'm a millennial and I've beendoing this, so talk to me a
little bit about what you'redoing.
So, in other words, you reallywant to make sure that people
are not just seen, but they'reheard and they actually have a
voice right and that people acttoo, and I think that's super
(14:48):
important.
The other piece that is part ofwhat I think I would have told
those leaders is they need tounderstand that inclusion, the
pathway to inclusion, is empathy, and so that those leaders in
the room need to understand thatthese are people, not workers,
and they need to make sure thatthey understand that right Is
that they have lives and theywant to bring their whole selves
to work, and sometimes it'smessy, sometimes it's not good,
sometimes it's great, but youhave to be empathetic before you
(15:10):
can create inclusion, andinclusion are activities and
things you do to make theworkplace environment work.
It's not a feeling.
A feeling is belonging.
How do they feel as a result ofthe empathetic leadership that
creates inclusion and inclusivemoments for people?
So that's what I would havetold them is just make it really
clear that this is what we wantand that we should think about
(15:33):
that.
You have a voice here, and thenhow you create voice is any
number of ways.
Be willing to spend yourprivilege, for example this is
one of the things we talk aboutin our book and I love this
notion as quickly as you canwhen someone is ready.
If in the workplace, forexample, michael, let's say, you
(15:53):
are the boss, you're the onewho's always the one speaking at
the meetings and you're talkingto the senior leadership team
and you're talking to thecreative team, and then you have
a couple of the new people withyou, why don't you spend your
privilege and say, hey, you knowwhat I normally do this part of
it.
Actually, you know Ana's goingto do it.
She's new to the team, but Iwant you to hear her.
Her voice is powerful, it'sreally cool what she brings, and
(16:16):
so on.
That very moment, what you'vedone is drop a pebble that
causes a ripple in that room,because now she has visibility,
she has an opportunity toimpress.
You haven't set her up becauseyou prepared her for this and
you've done this, and whatyou've shown other leaders in
the room is like wow, that'sreally very cool.
So maybe the next meeting theygo to or the next big
opportunity, they createvisibility for someone else and
(16:36):
before long that becomes justthe norm of an organization.
So these are the kinds ofthings we talk about.
Super simple, it's like createspace for someone else,
visibility, drop that pebble andboom, and then guess what?
Ana feels like Wow, they'rejust not blowing smoke.
They really do want me to feellike I have a voice and I belong
and I really like this place.
You know what I'm going to do.
(16:57):
I know someone who's superfabulous.
I'm going to tell them thatthey should come work here too.
So there's return on investmentto doing this, because now you
get access to greater talent.
You see what I'm saying.
She'll stay longer, you havehigher retention rates, so
there's some ROI to this too.
But those are some of thethings.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
If that's what you were asking, that my book talks
about Thank you so much.
Those are awesome.
I love that term spend yourprivilege.
That's such a good one right,yes, so I think we'd be remiss
without recognizing all thestuff that's happening in the
world regarding DEI and just howhard it is and how hard, I'm
(17:36):
sure, the space that you'reworking in is, and so maybe I
mean we could go on and on aboutthat, I'm sure, and so I'm
curious about any thoughts youhave on that.
But I also I want to get your,I guess, more specific thoughts
around this idea.
I'm seeing a lot of people kindof switch the language away
from DEI and say let's just callit fairness, and I'm really
(18:01):
curious about how you thinkabout that.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
Yeah, you know what?
I literally was on a podcastyesterday for the Institute of
Sustainable Diversity andInclusion, where it was asked
the expert and that was thewhole focus of this, and there
were four of us on the panellike where do you sit with all
this?
So I'll answer high level yourfirst part of the question.
Honestly, it is terrifying, itis horrible.
(18:24):
I don't think we've seen theworst of it and I'm not, by
nature, very pessimistic ornegative.
I'm very positive, I know, butI do think there's a lot of
turmoil and we haven't seen theworst part for DEI.
It's just going to get worsebefore it starts getting better.
The wonderful thing is we areseeing resistance, we are seeing
people protest, we are seeingsome court decisions that are
(18:46):
good, that are blocking some ofthe craziness that's associated
with DEI and some of what'shappening over there.
So think about it a lot, talkabout it a lot, and we can get
into some more of the details ifyou want to there as well.
But one of the things thatyou're alluding to is people are
finding ways of getting out ofthe crosshairs.
Right, some companies aresaying I'm in the middle of the
(19:08):
crosshairs, I don't care, I'mgoing to poke my fingers in
their eyeballs to bring it onright.
So there are companies doingthat.
There are companies thatprobably didn't want to even be
in this space and they weredoing it to you know, because
they felt like they had tobecause because Ahmaud Arbery
and George Floyd and and youknow, breonna Taylor were
murdered and a bunch of peopleupset.
So I guess I better jump on thebandwagon, right?
(19:29):
They're the ones hopping offthe bandwagon and they don't
care, and that's fine.
You know there's going to bethose.
Now there's this group ofpeople who want to double down,
want to keep doing this work,but they want to find a way of
how do you take that crosshairsaway from my company and still
do this work, but fly under theradar?
And I actually don't.
I look my bent way.
(19:51):
I like I'd rather step up toeto toe, be really intentional
and say bring it on that.
Right, if you don't want to behere, because I'm creating
access for everyone, not justpeople, not just underestimated
groups, but everyone whitepeople too right, if you don't
want to do that, see ya.
But there are a lot of peoplewho are saying look, I love this
, but I'm not going to call itDEI, I'm not going to even call
(20:12):
it inclusion.
In fact, I think even fairnesshas become surfaced amongst the
group that are attacking this tosay this is what they mean.
So people are, people are, youknow, you know doing, you know
they're finding different waysof labeling it around humanness
or people, people connectednessor you know those kinds of
things.
I honestly great, because youknow what's most important is we
(20:35):
keep doing the work and that wekeep creating access for people
who don't have access.
That we create pushing a realnarrative, that DEI, or as I
call it, id&e, is about creatingspace for creativity and
innovations.
Everyone benefits your bottomline benefits, every employee
(20:56):
benefits, and I mean everyemployee.
Right, the pie is not zero sum.
In my book I talk about.
The pie is something that cancontinue to grow and the more
you do ID&E or DEI, or humanconnectedness, whatever you call
it, the pie is just going toget bigger.
And here's the point that I'llmake to people who are listening
, who are making decisionsNothing's changed from two years
(21:20):
ago, when you jumped on thebandwagon because you know it's
the right thing to do and it'sthe business smart thing to do.
Nothing's changed.
Only thing that's changed ispeople have co-opted the term,
have used a wedge mentality todivide people and have co-opted
a term in a way that doesn'tmake sense.
Ei has never been about blackpeople and women, as I'll
(21:40):
flippantly say.
Not about black people andwomen.
It's about everyone.
However, in our culture, beingwhite and being male does give
you advantage.
So we should make sure we closethat gap and where it's
creating an unearned derailmentor wall or something against
underestimated groups, we shouldfix that.
(22:01):
But guess what?
We don't fix that.
To get at the white men in thissituation.
We encourage them to be part ofthe solution, part of the
decision, because diversity isfor everyone.
See what I'm saying, and sothat's what's really important.
And you could take the sameargument in India.
It's not going to be about race, it's going to be about color,
it's going to be about caste,it's going to be about gender,
(22:21):
it's going to be about religion.
You go to Japan it's not goingto be about race, it's going to
be about cultural difference andit's going to be about gender,
it's going to be about age.
And so you have this.
You have around the globe,different dimensions of
diversity that we have toconvince people and show.
Show them that if you createinclusive, accessible strategies
(22:43):
I don't know products,everything everyone benefits.
This has never, ever, ever beenabout creating advantage for
some groups at the expense andthe disadvantage of others.
Never been about that.
They just say it is becausethat's how you get people to get
fired up and angry so you canmove them as pawns in your
(23:03):
political leanings or whateveryou want to do.
We need to take back the powerof that, rebrand what ID&E
really is and humanize thestories.
And I'm all fired up.
I'm on a soapbox.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
You can't see it, you are.
I love it so much, so good.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
But that's what we need to do.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Sorry, Completely.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Eddie, I'll stop.
I'll take a drink.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
No no, it's so good.
Speaker 4 (23:26):
My chihuahua that's sitting in the room is just like
hey, you're going right now.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Daddy's awake.
Daddy's firing up Daddy's awake.
So, eddie, I mean I cannot.
Even time is already up andthis has been so amazing.
I feel like we can keep goingfor another hour or so.
Can you just share with ourlisteners how they can learn
more about you or more aboutyour book as we wrap?
Speaker 4 (23:48):
up?
Sure, thank you, I appreciateit.
So I'm an open book, right?
Linkedin's a good place thatyou can just find me on LinkedIn
.
But my website for my book iswwwinclusivepebblescom,
appropriately right.
Or you can go toeddiepate-speakingcom, and
(24:09):
that's my website for mybusiness.
Look up on LinkedIn, justconnect with me.
I'll give you my email, my cellphone I don't care, because we
got to just connect and keepthis work going, but I think
that's how you can get ahold ofme.
And Inclusive Pebbles is mybook website.
The eddypaid-speaking is mybusiness website.
They're linked together.
(24:31):
Please reach out if I can helpwith anything, if you need
someone to come in and speak ordo this, or just.
You know you need to run someideas by.
You know I'm we.
This work is too important notto make ourselves successful.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
That's awesome.
Thank you so much.
Thanks so much for joining usand talking with us, and I just
love your work.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Thank you for having me.
Michael, Laura, Thank you you.
You two are awesome, I lovethis so fun.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Thank you so much for joining us.
A great day.
Bye, everybody.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
We hope you've enjoyed this episode.
If you'd like to hear futureepisodes, be sure to subscribe
to the Happy at Work podcast andleave us a review with your
thoughts.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Are you interested in speaking on a future episode or
want to collaborate with us?
Let us know.
You can send us an email atadmin at happyatworkpodcastcom.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
And, lastly, follow us on LinkedIn or Twitter for
even more happiness.
See you soon.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com