December 26, 2024 • 25 mins
In this episode, Josh Drean challenges traditional employment models and explores how emerging technologies are reshaping the future of work. From remote work dynamics to decentralized organizations, Josh shares insights on why current workplace structures are failing to meet modern workforce needs and what the future might hold.
In This Episode, You'll Learn:
- Why traditional employment models are struggling to adapt to modern workforce needs
- How emerging technologies like blockchain and DAOs could transform workplace structures
- Why workplace flexibility is becoming non-negotiable for talent retention
- How younger generations are reimagining work through digital platforms and gig economy opportunities
- The shift from measuring time-based metrics to value-generated output
Quotable Moments:
"Zoom and Slack are not a workplace. They are tools that we use to do remote work. What we need is a workplace." - Josh Drean
Practical Takeaway:
Organizations need to shift from controlling how work gets done to measuring the value and output being generated. This means building trust-based relationships with employees and providing flexibility in how they accomplish their work.
Resources Mentioned:
- "Employment is Dead" (Forthcoming from Harvard Business Review, January 2025)
- Work3 Institute
- Harvard Innovation Labs
Connect With Our Guest:
- Josh Drean | LinkedIn
This episode challenges traditional workplace paradigms while offering practical insights into how organizations can adapt to meet evolving workforce expectations and technological capabilities.
To stay connected and continue the conversation, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.
And don't forget to check out our previous episodes for more tips and strategies to boost your workplace happiness. You can find them on your favorite podcast platform or on our website.
If you have any questions, comments, or topic suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you!
Stay inspired, stay motivated, and stay happy at work!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura Hamill (00:06):
Music, welcome back for another episode of the
happy at work podcast with LauraTessa and Michael.
Tessa Misiaszek (00:14):
Each week, we have thoughtful conversations
with leaders, founders andauthors about happiness at work.
Michael McCarthy (00:22):
Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation.
Enjoy the show.
Tessa Misiaszek (00:38):
Hi and welcome to the happy at work podcast. We
are so excited to have Joshdream here with us today. Josh
is an advisor to the Harvardinnovation labs, co founder of
the work three Institute, and coauthor of the forthcoming book,
employment is dead, published byHarvard Business Review. It's
coming out in January of 2025and endorsed by Adam Grant. So
(01:00):
lots to talk about this podcast,but welcome Josh to the happy at
work podcast.
Josh Drean (01:04):
Tessa, Michael, thanks so much for having me. So
Tessa Misiaszek (01:07):
let's just jump in, Josh, tell us a little bit
about your journey and what hasled you to write a book called
employment is dead.
Josh Drean (01:15):
Yeah. And I feel like we do need to define that a
little bit, because it's a it'sa very bold statement, and I
feel like most HR professionalswill tune out immediately. Oh,
so HR is dead, huh? Ai killedit. That's not, not what we're
saying at all. Rather, we aretalking about emerging
technologies and how it'schanging the way we work and our
preferences for work. So I amsquarely rooted in the employee
(01:37):
experience employee engagementworld, very much interested in,
how do we engage our people in away that gives them a work life
balance, that helps them betheir best selves, so that they
can, you know, work at a waythat provides value for the
company. And we've seen so manychallenges over the past few
years with that, haven't we? Sothe purpose of this podcast,
(01:58):
right happy at work is to figureout, how can we be happier at
work. And I think there's twocamps. There are individuals who
will say the ownership is on theemployee. Like you own your
life. You are the master of yourown destiny. What can you do
within the structure to be ableto make the most of it and be
happy? There are others who sayit's the leader's job. You know,
(02:18):
executives are in charge of thepeople that they hire to bring
on and work for them, if theywant more productivity, then
they should provide a betterwork life balance. The book
takes a different approach. Webelieve that it's the structure
of work that traditional modelsfor employment are failing to
adapt to the needs of the modernworkforce, and as we try to stay
(02:38):
within the rigid confines ofemployment, we are losing top
talent, and we need to figureout how and why, because it's a
problem today, but it willcontinue to be a problem so much
so that, you know, businesseswon't just be losing top talent,
they will be losing everything.
And so we we write about that inthe book.
Michael McCarthy (02:59):
So I'm curious, what about the current
structure of work? Do you thinkis inhibiting engagement, and
what changes does your booksuggest organizations make?
Josh Drean (03:11):
Yeah, we don't need to beat a dead horse, right?
We've all seen the Gallup pollsthat employee engagement is in
the toilet, right? It's 79%around there of employees are
either not engaged or activelydisengaged, and there's not
enough people asking why this issuch a dismal fact and why
employees are disengaged. In myphilosophy, is if we just ask
(03:34):
them what they want and whatthey need, they'll tell us, and
then it's up to us to actuallyprovide that. So when you look
at, say, a traditional model foremployment, the goal is short
term shareholder value. How dowe provide the most value
possible for shareholders? And alot of times, that shareholder
experience takes precedence overthe employee experience, so much
(03:57):
so that employees just feel likethey're a cog, that they feel
like they are generating plentyof value to the company, but
they're only seeing minimalreturns on that. And so I think
when you really look under thehood and decide, how can we
engage people more, it's thethings that we're kind of
unwilling to do, like they wantflexibility, they want remote
work, that's been very clear,and we are not allowing that to
(04:20):
happen in certain ways incertain organizations. I know
it's situational, but for themost part, employees want
flexibility. Are we willing togive them a bit of ownership in
the company, not just arbitrarystock that vests over time? This
is contribution basedcompensation, a stake in the
work that you in the value thatyou generate. So there's we call
it the 10 operating principlesof work, three the non
(04:42):
negotiables of the modernworkforce. And I ask people
leaders all over the world, ifyou can't give this to
employees, why should they workfor you? They're seeking
alternate and more attractivemeans of work at this time
because they're not gettingtheir needs met.
Tessa Misiaszek (04:58):
So I'm super curious. Josh, because I hear
from companies that they'reconstantly battling this, this
remote versus return to Office,versus hybrid work model, and
the car fair Institute, we justdid a workforce survey of 10,000
workers across the globe. Andwhen you look at flexibility,
it's, I mean flexibility isright behind compensation. I
(05:21):
mean compensation always andwill be number one why people
stay in jobs, look for jobs, andso forth, but a close second in
many instances, especially forthose who are actually Gen X
boomers, kind of the oldergeneration, those in executive
positions, they're wanting moreflexibility. And I could spend a
whole podcast talking to youabout why I think that is, but
(05:42):
it's kind of interesting that inthat in the light of such data
from Gallup, from corporateInstitute, and what you're
referring to, that more and morecompanies are now saying return
to work or return to Office fivedays a week, and that they're
even asking people to return tocorporate headquarters that
might be in different states andwhere they moved during the
(06:02):
pandemic. And so what's yourkind of take on that? And how do
you feel like the market isresponding to do you think it's
a power play, really, betweenthe market and employees as to
who's going to kind of win inthis battle of return to Office,
versus remote versus hybrid? Andwhere do you think we're going
to
Josh Drean (06:22):
land? Yeah, I mean, the fact that we are so
entrenched in an employer marketright now, where they're the job
market is very difficult to finda job. There's not a lot of
openings. We're seeing layoffshappening. Employers have all
the power, and they still arefailing effectively, to get 100%
of their people back in theoffice. Imagine when it just
ticks back even a little bit,the power that employees will
wield, it will be immense, andwe can blame any layer, right?
(06:45):
There's the real estate, there'sthe efficiency, there's we're
just better as a team. So weneed to all come back, right? I
look all the way at the base ofthe problem, which is, I think
employers are worried that thedisengagement that employees are
experiencing will continue toplay out at home, so much so
that they are taking naps,they're not working, they're
(07:05):
doing the laundry, they are notworking. And employees are
saying, but look at thebenefits, right? We're saving on
a commute, which is saving notonly money, but the environment.
We are working later into theday, because we are in meetings
all day. We're pulling up ourlaptops. So I feel like because
we're working more, we should beallowed to pick up our kids from
(07:27):
school, help them get settledand then get back to work. So I
think a rigid model is not goingto work. We see Amazon doing a
very strong control push rightnow, and we'll see how that
shakes out. We're seeing otherorganizations doing that. We're
also seeing mid sized businesseswho very much see this. They see
who's doing layoffs. They'reseeing who's doing RTO, and they
(07:47):
essentially put out an offer youget to work remote. It's going
to cost us nothing. It's a perkthat you really, really, really
want. So I think the data isclear. You know, 67% of
employers have lost talent toremote work opportunities in
2024 what's that going to looklike in 2025
Michael McCarthy (08:07):
so these are excellent points, and I'm going
to ask for your advice on whatI've seen as a consultant and
organizations pretty much doingthe same thing you are what
they've noticed with remoteworkers who are on zoom with
brainstorming, the creativityhas dropped that those the water
cooler moments, just the littlethings that just kind of pop up
(08:29):
when you're having lunchtogether. That has dropped.
Loneliness has increased amongour remote workers, but they're
really hesitant to share thatbecause they don't want it to be
weaponized as a reason to comeback to work remote workers, or
I should really say, everyone,including our younger workers,
want connection, and it's harderto have connection on remote and
(08:56):
one thing that I've beenhearing, which I'm really
surprised coming from remoteworkers, and I've heard this
multiple times, is they'resaying, Who needs culture?
Culture doesn't matter. And I'mcurious, how can they be happy
at work and really get theirfulfillment and connection if
they are remote and have thatcreativity that you typically do
(09:16):
get by being in person, how dowe how do we make everything
work in this any any thoughts?
Josh Drean (09:22):
Yeah, I agree.
Remote work, as it stands today,is terrible in terms of the
tools that we're using. And Ilike to say zoom and slack are
not a workplace. They are toolsthat we use to do remote work.
What we need is a workplace.
You're absolutely right.
Serendipitous connections at thewater cooler need to happen.
Being able to run up to my bossreal quick and get a quick
answer to something instead ofhaving to find time on your
schedule and having toreschedule, and I don't get an
(09:44):
answer for a few days, like allof the pains of remote work are
real, but it's because we don'thave a workplace. And my
argument is like, let's keeppushing into the future to
embrace a digital workplace. Myson is. Eight years old. He
loves to be social. But the waythat he is social in today's
world is he gets together withhis friends in Roblox. ROBLOX is
(10:05):
an expansive, immersive worldwhere he gets to be with people.
He gets to go on adventures. Hegets to learn to collaborate. He
gets to earn currency and spendcurrency and build a whole
society in this way, we havefriends across the street that
will come knock on the door andbe like, Hey, can you play cool,
slam the door and go back homeso that they can get on Roblox
(10:27):
together. This is such anorganic way that the younger
generation is collaboratingtogether, that if we can embrace
a virtual office and digitaltwins and AI, that makes it all
possible, these emergingtechnologies will bring back a
lot of the elements that you'retalking about, so we get the
best of both worlds.
Tessa Misiaszek (10:47):
I think that's so interesting. And you know,
when we think about theworkplace and engagement, you
mentioned employee engagement,and then at the very top of the
podcast, you mentioned alsosentiment analysis and kind of
the work you did it sounds likeearlier in your career. Can you
talk a little bit more thoughabout how you think what is the
difference between sentimentanalysis and employee
(11:08):
engagement, and how do you thinkwe can really capture what
people are feeling about workthrough sentiment analysis, and
how can that help informstrategies about should people
be remote? Should people behybrid? Should people be in
these digital workplaces? Likelet us know your thoughts on
that piece.
Josh Drean (11:27):
I love it. I'll try and keep it concise. Let's just
make sure that trust is thefoundation of any of the
comments that I'm about to make.
Self reported sentiment analysishas not worked because there's a
lack of trust in organizations.
There are plenty of stats thathave come out that show
especially frontline workers donot trust their leaders at work,
and so why should they be honestthere? So it's not about
(11:49):
building a better engagedexperience with employees, it's
about the relationship. Are webuilding a partnership or a
contract? How do you want youremployees to work for you? And
then what are we measuring?
Right? In the old ways, we usedto measure time, time spent in
the office, time spent at yourdesk and with AI, we're getting
so granular to the point where alot of CEOs are getting excited
(12:12):
about being able to countkeystrokes or email sent or eye
tracking software, right, likethe amount of sentiment analysis
that is not self reported thatwe can collect is scary to say
the least. And I just want toremind us that, like are we just
trying to track, you know, oldschool metrics that will allow
(12:34):
you to see everything that'sgoing on and just pick out the
one guy who's not doing as well,and then either fire them or
promote them whatever you do. Orare we looking at output? If you
are still kind of in this micromanaging control, we need to
measure the old things. That wasan outdated process decades,
decades ago. What we need to bemeasuring is value generated
(12:56):
output, productivity. Is thework getting done. If the works
getting done is getting done.
Well, even though you can'tcontrol as much, that should be
a sign that things are working.
And again, that's that's thetrust element, which is kind of
a hard thing to give up.
Michael McCarthy (13:16):
I think you're spot on with that. A few years
ago, we interviewed the CEO ofRico USA, and Carsten Brun
manages about 15,000 people, andhe basically said the same
thing, I measure output, notinput, and if you're doing well
at home, that's going to have atrickle down positive effect in
the office. It seems to beworking for him. But I wanted to
(13:40):
share with you two statisticsalso coming from Gallup, one of
my favorite places to get thestats, and one of their
statistics was that 70% of yourengagement is reflective of your
boss. So if your boss isengaged, 70% is going to trickle
down to you. If they're not,that's going to trickle down as
(14:00):
well. And really shockingstatistic, only about 15% of
managers are comfortablemanaging the hybrid environment.
So I'm wondering if you thinkthe tough spot or the friction
is with the manager, and if so,what should we do about that?
Josh Drean (14:19):
We are now getting into the probably next iteration
that we talk about in the book,right, which is decentralized
work environments, so web three,daos, Blockchain, all of this
really hot, really buzzy a yearago or so now, it's kind of
falling off. Has so manyimplications for work, right?
Because it sounds like whenwe're talking about this, again,
(14:42):
the structure allows us to onlytalk about being happy at work
within these confines. All we'retalking about is, how can you be
a little bit more happy in thispretty terrible environment
where you're not even doinganything that's fulfilling to
you? Whereas, again, we see likethese younger generations
building tiktoks. Shops, andthey are building worlds in
(15:02):
roadblocks, and they are doingthings that actually fuel their
passions, allow them to becreative, which is quite lost in
the corporate world. So what Ilike to say is that a
decentralized environment willallow some of that passion to
come back into play. Imagine aDao, a decentralized, autonomous
organization. The way that itworks is, it is to answer your
(15:24):
question. Is void of management.
There is no hierarchy. Here itis the collective wisdom of the
group. And you can use a toollike snapshot for anyone to say,
we want to go this way. We wantto go this way. We want to go
that way. You all vote on it,and whichever vote gets the most
is the direction that you head.
So we don't need management as atool anymore to sit above us
(15:46):
tell us which buttons we need topush, how often we need to push
them, and guide us as if it werethe assembly line. We need your
creative power, and we need youto be passionate about the work
that you're doing. The only waythat we can do that is if you
become an active decision makerif you own a part of the work
that you're generating, if youhave the flexibility to work in
(16:06):
certain ways. So I think thatthe answer to your question is,
let's get rid of this outdatedtool of management that doesn't
serve us anymore, in favor ofthe collective wisdom. Okay,
Tessa Misiaszek (16:16):
I we're gonna need you to come back, Josh,
because, listen, we're justgetting started, and you just, I
mean, kind of went down a roadof, can we reimagine the
workplace and stop trying to,even in a remote sensor in a
digital sense, try to replicatea traditional work setting in an
Office Online, and try to run itthat way? What you're now saying
(16:41):
is, let's just, let's throw thewhole model out, right, and
let's completely reimagine whata company looks like, what what
the organizational structuresare, and make it more around a
populace, or almost, it soundslike you're saying democratizing
Leadership in a way that allowscompanies to really have the
(17:03):
people decide which directionthe company is going in, and
kind of have all theaccountability shared among the
masses. Is that, is that? Whatyou're suggesting, I am
Josh Drean (17:14):
suggesting that to bring it back full circle, if
you can't engage your employeesand design an experience that
they love, that they want, theywill find attractive
alternatives to work that existoutside of the traditional
corporate structure. And whenthat happens, you're not going
to be jumping from job to job.
Great resignation. 2.0 is goingto look like jumping to the gig
(17:37):
economy, where you're mixing andMax matching several streams of
income, or you're able to starta Dao, where you are working
with like passionate individualson a project that excites you on
your own term.
Tessa Misiaszek (17:51):
Okay, so, so a Dao, and I'm so sorry. I feel so
incredibly naive in thisconversation, and I've been in
this, in this business, for 35years. So this is so
illuminating. So a Dao isbasically a shared project. So
if you have a bunch of gigworkers who are kind of working
together, you could elect to bepart of an organization and work
(18:12):
on a shared projects for aperiod of time. Is that
essentially what that describes,I've never heard that term
before,
Josh Drean (18:19):
yeah, simply, without going into too much
detail, the way that it wouldlook like is, instead of a self
reported resume that you wrotedown yourself, give it to the
organization, they have toverify that you actually have
the skills. What if all of yourprojects that you've ever done,
all of the skills that you have,are actually imprinted on the
blockchain you've done them? Weknow you have these skills. It's
not just a piece of paper comingout of school. We know you've
done it that will allow AI tomake match you on projects that
(18:43):
match your preferences, thatmatches your skill set, and you
don't have to work for oneorganization. You could work for
several organizations on severalprojects, and continue to build
that pedigree independent of thetools that we're using today.
Tessa Misiaszek (18:57):
Are there parts of the world that are doing this
now? There
Josh Drean (19:00):
are definitely some like web 2.5 versions of this,
right? We're moving to towards askills based marketplace, and
that is kind of the beginningstep. I just take it a step
further. Why do this internallyfor one company, when you could
own your own company, which isyour own personal brand, and
shop yourself around to a lot ofdifferent places and make more
(19:21):
money. So
Michael McCarthy (19:22):
I used to teach a course on blockchain
when it first came out. Soblockchain and dials, it's, it's
interesting to have this startto see, like, where has it
evolved? But as we close out,because I'd love to spend a few
days talking to you about this.
I'm curious about yourperspective on really two
things. So the tension that I'mseeing might be generational.
You know, management's older.
(19:45):
They have a different culture,they have different value
system, and it seems to be quitedifferent from younger
generations. I actually knowboth generations pretty well.
It's really not that different,but right now it seems to be
perceived that way when you addin the fact. Fact that most
Americans cannot afford toretire. And to give you a
statistics from Fidelity, ifyou're 65 you're going to need
(20:09):
about $2 million to retire andbe pretty comfortable. You can't
go crazy, but you're not goingto have to be too economical. So
2 million is pretty much an easynumber. The average 401, K
balance in the US is about$45,000 which means these people
are not going to be able toretire. And what I'm seeing in
(20:30):
the future, and I'm just tryingto use a little common sense in
my crystal ball, which isprobably not going to be
accurate, is if these olderpeople can't retire, they want
to keep their jobs, they'reculturally aligned with the
value system of oldermanagement. And do you think
that older management would say,I'm going to start seeing these
older workers as attractivebecause we get each other, and
(20:55):
that's going to be competitionfor the younger generations? I'm
I'm curious if that, if thosedemographics are are something
that play into what you'rethinking, oh, one
Josh Drean (21:04):
100% you're absolutely right, right? People
are staying in jobs longer.
Leadership roles are not beingpassed down as fast as they have
in the past. And the mostpoignant is that empowerment
feels like a thing of the past.
The younger generation doesn'teven think that is possible,
especially as they aregraduating with loads of debt.
56% of college graduates rightnow are working high school
(21:24):
level jobs, so they're not evengetting into the system that
promised employment at the endof their college degree, and 51%
of them have to work a sidehustle just to make ends meet
when you're working two jobsjust to pay for rent. We're not
even talking about retirement.
We're not even talking aboutwe're not even in the same world
at that point. And so I thinkthe younger generation is
(21:46):
abandoning a lot of these idealsof work is because it just isn't
serving like I'm not going toretire. I'm not even going to be
able to pay for life right now,so I'm going to prioritize
living right now over work.
They're fighting against thatnarrative that you need work to
make you happy, and that aloneis going to change the way we
work more dramatically thananything else. Well,
Michael McCarthy (22:07):
I get that, but the point I was trying to
make is that there's anotherworkforce out there that might
compete with theiropportunities, where an older
person who can't afford toretire, who's 6065 right now,
might say, I'll come to work.
I'll work for for healthinsurance or benefits, and I'm
happy to you know, fit into theculture which agreed it was old.
How do you think the youngergeneration is going to handle
(22:31):
having that kind of competition?
Do you think they would changeor go to Yeah, I
Josh Drean (22:37):
mean, it's a good question, honestly, from my
standpoint, I don't think theyeven consider that competition.
In the normal situation, it'slike, go get a college degree,
go get a job at a nice healthcare company, work your way up
the ladder and make it work,right? They're already seeing
that there's not enough jobsavailable for them to get a
corporate job. They're forced todo something different. So, so,
(23:00):
and maybe that 65 year old islike, I obviously get the job
because I have decades ofexperience over you. It's a no
brainer, so I'm going to fitinto that, right? It doesn't
even seem like competition, it'sand so what does Gen Z do with
that information? They have tofind out what's best for
themselves, which unfortunately,is a short straw, it feels.
Tessa Misiaszek (23:19):
But as you said, to bring it back kind of
full circle, they're reinventingthe workplace, and they're
reinventing the way in whichthey find work, and if the
traditional corporate structuresare not giving them jobs, then
it's about how do I get myresume or my skill sets out
there to people who need theseskills to be applied to
(23:39):
projects, and I can gig across10 different projects rather
than working for one company.
And that's what it sounds like.
Is kind of the future of wherewe might see this all going.
Josh Drean (23:52):
Yeah, I will just say that when you look at the
value generation within theseplatforms of Fortnite and
Roblox, when I say that, I feellike a lot of times, people are
just like, Oh, it's a videogame. It's not it is it
immersive, interoperable worlds?
It literally is the metaversethat exists today. And as a
normal kid who's interested inplaying in this, communities can
(24:13):
build through the developerprogram, I can build my own
world. I can invite communitiesin. We can generate value and
income, real world income thatwe can use to pay rent. The
average Roblox developer lastyear made $62,000 doing
something that they love. It'sdeveloping worlds and inviting
people in. That's not foreverybody, but the fact that you
(24:36):
can earn a full time incomedoing something you love and
still pay for rent to nobrainer,
Tessa Misiaszek (24:45):
wow. Well, there's Josh. We're just
scratching the surface. So thankyou so much for coming on and
and I cannot wait to read yourbook employment is dead, which
comes out in January, and we'lldefinitely do a book review on.
The podcast, and would love tohave you back, if you're
willing, that
Josh Drean (25:03):
would be wonderful.
Thank you so much.
Michael McCarthy (25:07):
We hope you've enjoyed this episode. If you'd
like to hear future episodes, besure to subscribe to the happy
at work podcast and leave us areview with your thoughts. Are
Tessa Misiaszek (25:18):
you interested in speaking on a future episode,
or want to collaborate with us.
Let us know you can send us anemail at admin, at happy, at
work, podcast.com,
Laura Hamill (25:29):
and lastly, follow us on LinkedIn or Twitter for
even more happiness. See yousoon. You
Music, welcome back for another episode of the
happy at work podcast with LauraTessa and Michael.
Tessa Misiaszek (00:14):
Each week, we have thoughtful conversations
with leaders, founders andauthors about happiness at work.
Michael McCarthy (00:22):
Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation.
Enjoy the show.
Tessa Misiaszek (00:38):
Hi and welcome to the happy at work podcast. We
are so excited to have Joshdream here with us today. Josh
is an advisor to the Harvardinnovation labs, co founder of
the work three Institute, and coauthor of the forthcoming book,
employment is dead, published byHarvard Business Review. It's
coming out in January of 2025and endorsed by Adam Grant. So
(01:00):
lots to talk about this podcast,but welcome Josh to the happy at
work podcast.
Josh Drean (01:04):
Tessa, Michael, thanks so much for having me. So
Tessa Misiaszek (01:07):
let's just jump in, Josh, tell us a little bit
about your journey and what hasled you to write a book called
employment is dead.
Josh Drean (01:15):
Yeah. And I feel like we do need to define that a
little bit, because it's a it'sa very bold statement, and I
feel like most HR professionalswill tune out immediately. Oh,
so HR is dead, huh? Ai killedit. That's not, not what we're
saying at all. Rather, we aretalking about emerging
technologies and how it'schanging the way we work and our
preferences for work. So I amsquarely rooted in the employee
(01:37):
experience employee engagementworld, very much interested in,
how do we engage our people in away that gives them a work life
balance, that helps them betheir best selves, so that they
can, you know, work at a waythat provides value for the
company. And we've seen so manychallenges over the past few
years with that, haven't we? Sothe purpose of this podcast,
(01:58):
right happy at work is to figureout, how can we be happier at
work. And I think there's twocamps. There are individuals who
will say the ownership is on theemployee. Like you own your
life. You are the master of yourown destiny. What can you do
within the structure to be ableto make the most of it and be
happy? There are others who sayit's the leader's job. You know,
(02:18):
executives are in charge of thepeople that they hire to bring
on and work for them, if theywant more productivity, then
they should provide a betterwork life balance. The book
takes a different approach. Webelieve that it's the structure
of work that traditional modelsfor employment are failing to
adapt to the needs of the modernworkforce, and as we try to stay
(02:38):
within the rigid confines ofemployment, we are losing top
talent, and we need to figureout how and why, because it's a
problem today, but it willcontinue to be a problem so much
so that, you know, businesseswon't just be losing top talent,
they will be losing everything.
And so we we write about that inthe book.
Michael McCarthy (02:59):
So I'm curious, what about the current
structure of work? Do you thinkis inhibiting engagement, and
what changes does your booksuggest organizations make?
Josh Drean (03:11):
Yeah, we don't need to beat a dead horse, right?
We've all seen the Gallup pollsthat employee engagement is in
the toilet, right? It's 79%around there of employees are
either not engaged or activelydisengaged, and there's not
enough people asking why this issuch a dismal fact and why
employees are disengaged. In myphilosophy, is if we just ask
(03:34):
them what they want and whatthey need, they'll tell us, and
then it's up to us to actuallyprovide that. So when you look
at, say, a traditional model foremployment, the goal is short
term shareholder value. How dowe provide the most value
possible for shareholders? And alot of times, that shareholder
experience takes precedence overthe employee experience, so much
(03:57):
so that employees just feel likethey're a cog, that they feel
like they are generating plentyof value to the company, but
they're only seeing minimalreturns on that. And so I think
when you really look under thehood and decide, how can we
engage people more, it's thethings that we're kind of
unwilling to do, like they wantflexibility, they want remote
work, that's been very clear,and we are not allowing that to
(04:20):
happen in certain ways incertain organizations. I know
it's situational, but for themost part, employees want
flexibility. Are we willing togive them a bit of ownership in
the company, not just arbitrarystock that vests over time? This
is contribution basedcompensation, a stake in the
work that you in the value thatyou generate. So there's we call
it the 10 operating principlesof work, three the non
(04:42):
negotiables of the modernworkforce. And I ask people
leaders all over the world, ifyou can't give this to
employees, why should they workfor you? They're seeking
alternate and more attractivemeans of work at this time
because they're not gettingtheir needs met.
Tessa Misiaszek (04:58):
So I'm super curious. Josh, because I hear
from companies that they'reconstantly battling this, this
remote versus return to Office,versus hybrid work model, and
the car fair Institute, we justdid a workforce survey of 10,000
workers across the globe. Andwhen you look at flexibility,
it's, I mean flexibility isright behind compensation. I
(05:21):
mean compensation always andwill be number one why people
stay in jobs, look for jobs, andso forth, but a close second in
many instances, especially forthose who are actually Gen X
boomers, kind of the oldergeneration, those in executive
positions, they're wanting moreflexibility. And I could spend a
whole podcast talking to youabout why I think that is, but
(05:42):
it's kind of interesting that inthat in the light of such data
from Gallup, from corporateInstitute, and what you're
referring to, that more and morecompanies are now saying return
to work or return to Office fivedays a week, and that they're
even asking people to return tocorporate headquarters that
might be in different states andwhere they moved during the
(06:02):
pandemic. And so what's yourkind of take on that? And how do
you feel like the market isresponding to do you think it's
a power play, really, betweenthe market and employees as to
who's going to kind of win inthis battle of return to Office,
versus remote versus hybrid? Andwhere do you think we're going
to
Josh Drean (06:22):
land? Yeah, I mean, the fact that we are so
entrenched in an employer marketright now, where they're the job
market is very difficult to finda job. There's not a lot of
openings. We're seeing layoffshappening. Employers have all
the power, and they still arefailing effectively, to get 100%
of their people back in theoffice. Imagine when it just
ticks back even a little bit,the power that employees will
wield, it will be immense, andwe can blame any layer, right?
(06:45):
There's the real estate, there'sthe efficiency, there's we're
just better as a team. So weneed to all come back, right? I
look all the way at the base ofthe problem, which is, I think
employers are worried that thedisengagement that employees are
experiencing will continue toplay out at home, so much so
that they are taking naps,they're not working, they're
(07:05):
doing the laundry, they are notworking. And employees are
saying, but look at thebenefits, right? We're saving on
a commute, which is saving notonly money, but the environment.
We are working later into theday, because we are in meetings
all day. We're pulling up ourlaptops. So I feel like because
we're working more, we should beallowed to pick up our kids from
(07:27):
school, help them get settledand then get back to work. So I
think a rigid model is not goingto work. We see Amazon doing a
very strong control push rightnow, and we'll see how that
shakes out. We're seeing otherorganizations doing that. We're
also seeing mid sized businesseswho very much see this. They see
who's doing layoffs. They'reseeing who's doing RTO, and they
(07:47):
essentially put out an offer youget to work remote. It's going
to cost us nothing. It's a perkthat you really, really, really
want. So I think the data isclear. You know, 67% of
employers have lost talent toremote work opportunities in
2024 what's that going to looklike in 2025
Michael McCarthy (08:07):
so these are excellent points, and I'm going
to ask for your advice on whatI've seen as a consultant and
organizations pretty much doingthe same thing you are what
they've noticed with remoteworkers who are on zoom with
brainstorming, the creativityhas dropped that those the water
cooler moments, just the littlethings that just kind of pop up
(08:29):
when you're having lunchtogether. That has dropped.
Loneliness has increased amongour remote workers, but they're
really hesitant to share thatbecause they don't want it to be
weaponized as a reason to comeback to work remote workers, or
I should really say, everyone,including our younger workers,
want connection, and it's harderto have connection on remote and
(08:56):
one thing that I've beenhearing, which I'm really
surprised coming from remoteworkers, and I've heard this
multiple times, is they'resaying, Who needs culture?
Culture doesn't matter. And I'mcurious, how can they be happy
at work and really get theirfulfillment and connection if
they are remote and have thatcreativity that you typically do
(09:16):
get by being in person, how dowe how do we make everything
work in this any any thoughts?
Josh Drean (09:22):
Yeah, I agree.
Remote work, as it stands today,is terrible in terms of the
tools that we're using. And Ilike to say zoom and slack are
not a workplace. They are toolsthat we use to do remote work.
What we need is a workplace.
You're absolutely right.
Serendipitous connections at thewater cooler need to happen.
Being able to run up to my bossreal quick and get a quick
answer to something instead ofhaving to find time on your
schedule and having toreschedule, and I don't get an
(09:44):
answer for a few days, like allof the pains of remote work are
real, but it's because we don'thave a workplace. And my
argument is like, let's keeppushing into the future to
embrace a digital workplace. Myson is. Eight years old. He
loves to be social. But the waythat he is social in today's
world is he gets together withhis friends in Roblox. ROBLOX is
(10:05):
an expansive, immersive worldwhere he gets to be with people.
He gets to go on adventures. Hegets to learn to collaborate. He
gets to earn currency and spendcurrency and build a whole
society in this way, we havefriends across the street that
will come knock on the door andbe like, Hey, can you play cool,
slam the door and go back homeso that they can get on Roblox
(10:27):
together. This is such anorganic way that the younger
generation is collaboratingtogether, that if we can embrace
a virtual office and digitaltwins and AI, that makes it all
possible, these emergingtechnologies will bring back a
lot of the elements that you'retalking about, so we get the
best of both worlds.
Tessa Misiaszek (10:47):
I think that's so interesting. And you know,
when we think about theworkplace and engagement, you
mentioned employee engagement,and then at the very top of the
podcast, you mentioned alsosentiment analysis and kind of
the work you did it sounds likeearlier in your career. Can you
talk a little bit more thoughabout how you think what is the
difference between sentimentanalysis and employee
(11:08):
engagement, and how do you thinkwe can really capture what
people are feeling about workthrough sentiment analysis, and
how can that help informstrategies about should people
be remote? Should people behybrid? Should people be in
these digital workplaces? Likelet us know your thoughts on
that piece.
Josh Drean (11:27):
I love it. I'll try and keep it concise. Let's just
make sure that trust is thefoundation of any of the
comments that I'm about to make.
Self reported sentiment analysishas not worked because there's a
lack of trust in organizations.
There are plenty of stats thathave come out that show
especially frontline workers donot trust their leaders at work,
and so why should they be honestthere? So it's not about
(11:49):
building a better engagedexperience with employees, it's
about the relationship. Are webuilding a partnership or a
contract? How do you want youremployees to work for you? And
then what are we measuring?
Right? In the old ways, we usedto measure time, time spent in
the office, time spent at yourdesk and with AI, we're getting
so granular to the point where alot of CEOs are getting excited
(12:12):
about being able to countkeystrokes or email sent or eye
tracking software, right, likethe amount of sentiment analysis
that is not self reported thatwe can collect is scary to say
the least. And I just want toremind us that, like are we just
trying to track, you know, oldschool metrics that will allow
(12:34):
you to see everything that'sgoing on and just pick out the
one guy who's not doing as well,and then either fire them or
promote them whatever you do. Orare we looking at output? If you
are still kind of in this micromanaging control, we need to
measure the old things. That wasan outdated process decades,
decades ago. What we need to bemeasuring is value generated
(12:56):
output, productivity. Is thework getting done. If the works
getting done is getting done.
Well, even though you can'tcontrol as much, that should be
a sign that things are working.
And again, that's that's thetrust element, which is kind of
a hard thing to give up.
Michael McCarthy (13:16):
I think you're spot on with that. A few years
ago, we interviewed the CEO ofRico USA, and Carsten Brun
manages about 15,000 people, andhe basically said the same
thing, I measure output, notinput, and if you're doing well
at home, that's going to have atrickle down positive effect in
the office. It seems to beworking for him. But I wanted to
(13:40):
share with you two statisticsalso coming from Gallup, one of
my favorite places to get thestats, and one of their
statistics was that 70% of yourengagement is reflective of your
boss. So if your boss isengaged, 70% is going to trickle
down to you. If they're not,that's going to trickle down as
(14:00):
well. And really shockingstatistic, only about 15% of
managers are comfortablemanaging the hybrid environment.
So I'm wondering if you thinkthe tough spot or the friction
is with the manager, and if so,what should we do about that?
Josh Drean (14:19):
We are now getting into the probably next iteration
that we talk about in the book,right, which is decentralized
work environments, so web three,daos, Blockchain, all of this
really hot, really buzzy a yearago or so now, it's kind of
falling off. Has so manyimplications for work, right?
Because it sounds like whenwe're talking about this, again,
(14:42):
the structure allows us to onlytalk about being happy at work
within these confines. All we'retalking about is, how can you be
a little bit more happy in thispretty terrible environment
where you're not even doinganything that's fulfilling to
you? Whereas, again, we see likethese younger generations
building tiktoks. Shops, andthey are building worlds in
(15:02):
roadblocks, and they are doingthings that actually fuel their
passions, allow them to becreative, which is quite lost in
the corporate world. So what Ilike to say is that a
decentralized environment willallow some of that passion to
come back into play. Imagine aDao, a decentralized, autonomous
organization. The way that itworks is, it is to answer your
(15:24):
question. Is void of management.
There is no hierarchy. Here itis the collective wisdom of the
group. And you can use a toollike snapshot for anyone to say,
we want to go this way. We wantto go this way. We want to go
that way. You all vote on it,and whichever vote gets the most
is the direction that you head.
So we don't need management as atool anymore to sit above us
(15:46):
tell us which buttons we need topush, how often we need to push
them, and guide us as if it werethe assembly line. We need your
creative power, and we need youto be passionate about the work
that you're doing. The only waythat we can do that is if you
become an active decision makerif you own a part of the work
that you're generating, if youhave the flexibility to work in
(16:06):
certain ways. So I think thatthe answer to your question is,
let's get rid of this outdatedtool of management that doesn't
serve us anymore, in favor ofthe collective wisdom. Okay,
Tessa Misiaszek (16:16):
I we're gonna need you to come back, Josh,
because, listen, we're justgetting started, and you just, I
mean, kind of went down a roadof, can we reimagine the
workplace and stop trying to,even in a remote sensor in a
digital sense, try to replicatea traditional work setting in an
Office Online, and try to run itthat way? What you're now saying
(16:41):
is, let's just, let's throw thewhole model out, right, and
let's completely reimagine whata company looks like, what what
the organizational structuresare, and make it more around a
populace, or almost, it soundslike you're saying democratizing
Leadership in a way that allowscompanies to really have the
(17:03):
people decide which directionthe company is going in, and
kind of have all theaccountability shared among the
masses. Is that, is that? Whatyou're suggesting, I am
Josh Drean (17:14):
suggesting that to bring it back full circle, if
you can't engage your employeesand design an experience that
they love, that they want, theywill find attractive
alternatives to work that existoutside of the traditional
corporate structure. And whenthat happens, you're not going
to be jumping from job to job.
Great resignation. 2.0 is goingto look like jumping to the gig
(17:37):
economy, where you're mixing andMax matching several streams of
income, or you're able to starta Dao, where you are working
with like passionate individualson a project that excites you on
your own term.
Tessa Misiaszek (17:51):
Okay, so, so a Dao, and I'm so sorry. I feel so
incredibly naive in thisconversation, and I've been in
this, in this business, for 35years. So this is so
illuminating. So a Dao isbasically a shared project. So
if you have a bunch of gigworkers who are kind of working
together, you could elect to bepart of an organization and work
(18:12):
on a shared projects for aperiod of time. Is that
essentially what that describes,I've never heard that term
before,
Josh Drean (18:19):
yeah, simply, without going into too much
detail, the way that it wouldlook like is, instead of a self
reported resume that you wrotedown yourself, give it to the
organization, they have toverify that you actually have
the skills. What if all of yourprojects that you've ever done,
all of the skills that you have,are actually imprinted on the
blockchain you've done them? Weknow you have these skills. It's
not just a piece of paper comingout of school. We know you've
done it that will allow AI tomake match you on projects that
(18:43):
match your preferences, thatmatches your skill set, and you
don't have to work for oneorganization. You could work for
several organizations on severalprojects, and continue to build
that pedigree independent of thetools that we're using today.
Tessa Misiaszek (18:57):
Are there parts of the world that are doing this
now? There
Josh Drean (19:00):
are definitely some like web 2.5 versions of this,
right? We're moving to towards askills based marketplace, and
that is kind of the beginningstep. I just take it a step
further. Why do this internallyfor one company, when you could
own your own company, which isyour own personal brand, and
shop yourself around to a lot ofdifferent places and make more
(19:21):
money. So
Michael McCarthy (19:22):
I used to teach a course on blockchain
when it first came out. Soblockchain and dials, it's, it's
interesting to have this startto see, like, where has it
evolved? But as we close out,because I'd love to spend a few
days talking to you about this.
I'm curious about yourperspective on really two
things. So the tension that I'mseeing might be generational.
You know, management's older.
(19:45):
They have a different culture,they have different value
system, and it seems to be quitedifferent from younger
generations. I actually knowboth generations pretty well.
It's really not that different,but right now it seems to be
perceived that way when you addin the fact. Fact that most
Americans cannot afford toretire. And to give you a
statistics from Fidelity, ifyou're 65 you're going to need
(20:09):
about $2 million to retire andbe pretty comfortable. You can't
go crazy, but you're not goingto have to be too economical. So
2 million is pretty much an easynumber. The average 401, K
balance in the US is about$45,000 which means these people
are not going to be able toretire. And what I'm seeing in
(20:30):
the future, and I'm just tryingto use a little common sense in
my crystal ball, which isprobably not going to be
accurate, is if these olderpeople can't retire, they want
to keep their jobs, they'reculturally aligned with the
value system of oldermanagement. And do you think
that older management would say,I'm going to start seeing these
older workers as attractivebecause we get each other, and
(20:55):
that's going to be competitionfor the younger generations? I'm
I'm curious if that, if thosedemographics are are something
that play into what you'rethinking, oh, one
Josh Drean (21:04):
100% you're absolutely right, right? People
are staying in jobs longer.
Leadership roles are not beingpassed down as fast as they have
in the past. And the mostpoignant is that empowerment
feels like a thing of the past.
The younger generation doesn'teven think that is possible,
especially as they aregraduating with loads of debt.
56% of college graduates rightnow are working high school
(21:24):
level jobs, so they're not evengetting into the system that
promised employment at the endof their college degree, and 51%
of them have to work a sidehustle just to make ends meet
when you're working two jobsjust to pay for rent. We're not
even talking about retirement.
We're not even talking aboutwe're not even in the same world
at that point. And so I thinkthe younger generation is
(21:46):
abandoning a lot of these idealsof work is because it just isn't
serving like I'm not going toretire. I'm not even going to be
able to pay for life right now,so I'm going to prioritize
living right now over work.
They're fighting against thatnarrative that you need work to
make you happy, and that aloneis going to change the way we
work more dramatically thananything else. Well,
Michael McCarthy (22:07):
I get that, but the point I was trying to
make is that there's anotherworkforce out there that might
compete with theiropportunities, where an older
person who can't afford toretire, who's 6065 right now,
might say, I'll come to work.
I'll work for for healthinsurance or benefits, and I'm
happy to you know, fit into theculture which agreed it was old.
How do you think the youngergeneration is going to handle
(22:31):
having that kind of competition?
Do you think they would changeor go to Yeah, I
Josh Drean (22:37):
mean, it's a good question, honestly, from my
standpoint, I don't think theyeven consider that competition.
In the normal situation, it'slike, go get a college degree,
go get a job at a nice healthcare company, work your way up
the ladder and make it work,right? They're already seeing
that there's not enough jobsavailable for them to get a
corporate job. They're forced todo something different. So, so,
(23:00):
and maybe that 65 year old islike, I obviously get the job
because I have decades ofexperience over you. It's a no
brainer, so I'm going to fitinto that, right? It doesn't
even seem like competition, it'sand so what does Gen Z do with
that information? They have tofind out what's best for
themselves, which unfortunately,is a short straw, it feels.
Tessa Misiaszek (23:19):
But as you said, to bring it back kind of
full circle, they're reinventingthe workplace, and they're
reinventing the way in whichthey find work, and if the
traditional corporate structuresare not giving them jobs, then
it's about how do I get myresume or my skill sets out
there to people who need theseskills to be applied to
(23:39):
projects, and I can gig across10 different projects rather
than working for one company.
And that's what it sounds like.
Is kind of the future of wherewe might see this all going.
Josh Drean (23:52):
Yeah, I will just say that when you look at the
value generation within theseplatforms of Fortnite and
Roblox, when I say that, I feellike a lot of times, people are
just like, Oh, it's a videogame. It's not it is it
immersive, interoperable worlds?
It literally is the metaversethat exists today. And as a
normal kid who's interested inplaying in this, communities can
(24:13):
build through the developerprogram, I can build my own
world. I can invite communitiesin. We can generate value and
income, real world income thatwe can use to pay rent. The
average Roblox developer lastyear made $62,000 doing
something that they love. It'sdeveloping worlds and inviting
people in. That's not foreverybody, but the fact that you
(24:36):
can earn a full time incomedoing something you love and
still pay for rent to nobrainer,
Tessa Misiaszek (24:45):
wow. Well, there's Josh. We're just
scratching the surface. So thankyou so much for coming on and
and I cannot wait to read yourbook employment is dead, which
comes out in January, and we'lldefinitely do a book review on.
The podcast, and would love tohave you back, if you're
willing, that
Josh Drean (25:03):
would be wonderful.
Thank you so much.
Michael McCarthy (25:07):
We hope you've enjoyed this episode. If you'd
like to hear future episodes, besure to subscribe to the happy
at work podcast and leave us areview with your thoughts. Are
Tessa Misiaszek (25:18):
you interested in speaking on a future episode,
or want to collaborate with us.
Let us know you can send us anemail at admin, at happy, at
work, podcast.com,
Laura Hamill (25:29):
and lastly, follow us on LinkedIn or Twitter for
even more happiness. See yousoon. You
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