January 2, 2025 • 24 mins
In this conversation, Faye McCray shares her journey from practicing law to media and consulting, exploring how career transitions and authentic storytelling can lead to more nourishing work. She discusses the importance of recognizing when work environments no longer serve us, the power of taking calculated risks, and how sharing our authentic stories can create deeper connections in our professional lives.
In This Episode, You'll Learn:
- How to recognize when your career needs a pivot and strategies for making bold transitions
- Why authentic storytelling can be a powerful tool for building professional connections
- The importance of viewing work relationships as mutually beneficial transactions
- Ways to reframe resilience and set healthy boundaries in your career
- How generational perspectives influence our relationship with work
Quotable Moment:
"Work is inherently transactional... if you're just giving, you're empty. It's about reconfronting that transaction and making sure that you're getting as much as you're giving." - Faye McCray
Practical Takeaway:
When considering career changes or feeling burnt out, ask yourself "What if it all works out?" instead of catastrophizing. Take inventory of your skills, savings, and support system. Remember that your work should nourish you, not just drain you - and it's okay to make changes when that balance isn't right.
Resources Mentioned:
- "What If It All Works Out?" Newsletter on Substack
- Vision boarding as a career planning tool via BetterUp
Connect With Our Guest:
- Faye McCray | LinkedIn
To stay connected and continue the conversation, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.
And don't forget to check out our previous episodes for more tips and strategies to boost your workplace happiness. You can find them on your favorite podcast platform or on our website.
If you have any questions, comments, or topic suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you!
Stay inspired, stay motivated, and stay happy at work!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura Hamill (00:06):
Music, welcome back for another episode of the
happy at work podcast with LauraTessa and Michael.
Tessa Misiaszek (00:14):
Each week, we have thoughtful conversations
with leaders, founders andauthors about happiness at work.
Michael McCarthy (00:22):
Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation.
Enjoy the show.
Laura Hamill (00:38):
Welcome to the happy at work podcast today,
we're so excited to have FayeMcCarthy joining us. Faye,
welcome. Thank you. Thanks forhaving me. Yeah, so glad you're
here. Well, what we always loveto start with is tell us about
you, tell us about what you do,and a bit about your career.
Faye McCray (00:57):
Yeah. So right now, I own my own consulting
practice, but like so manythings, twisty turny road to
getting here. So studied law,practiced law for about a
decade, and before kind ofpivoting into media and
journalism, it was very PassionDriven. I've always sort of been
a closeted writer, so I waswriting on the side for a really
long time, and then sort ofwrote my way into a career in
(01:17):
media, which was fantastic, youknow, really great works in the
wellness space, health andwellness, which mirrored my path
in law, because I practicehealth law, and then, you know,
kind of pivoted into this spaceof consulting right now. So I
work on strategic storytelling.
So I work with with folks thatare really interested in sort of
getting to the root of their whyand learning how better to
(01:37):
connect with their audiences. I
Michael McCarthy (01:40):
love that. Can you tell us some of the can you
tell us your favorite storyabout someone connecting through
storytelling that you've helped?
Faye McCray (01:48):
Yeah, I'm, you know, I almost feel like it
would be unfair to give afavorite, because I feel like
I've just heard so many justbeautiful stories of why people
connect with the work they doand why they do. This is a bit
of a sad one, but I had a clientwho lost a child, and it just
devastated their family, andtheir oldest son had a very
tough time with it and struggledwith addiction for years. He's
(02:10):
come out on the other side ofit, thankfully. You know,
they're they're on the mend as afamily. But for her, it really
sort of shaped how she showed upin the work that she did. So she
was in the nonprofit space,particularly in behavioral
health, and she is all aboutstrengthening nonprofit. So it's
this dry subject of nonprofit,but her whole goal is to make
(02:30):
sure that like families aren'timpacted the way that hers was.
So she's a connector and arelationship builder. And for a
long time, she sort of shiedaway from that story. I think
she was sort of nervous to getreally personal when she talked
about her work, but I thinkshe's realized now it's her
superpower, because she cares,she cares, and the people that
she works with, they know thatshe cares.
Michael McCarthy (02:50):
And just to follow up on that story, what
was, what was the impact to her,and how she showed up to work
after she was comfortabletelling that story? What was the
impact for her?
Faye McCray (03:01):
Yeah, I think connection, you know, I think
that's the thing that I get themost from people, is like, when
they're able to share thesethreads, whether or not it's a
note in their inbox, or whetherit's someone coming up to them
after a keynote, or just wantingto work for them and work with
them. I think those are thebiggest things. And for her, I
think, you know, the first timeshe shared that story, she
immediately sent me a note, likethere was a line waiting for her
(03:22):
at the end of the conference totalk to her about her story and
her work. And usually it's like,oh, yeah, this is great work.
You know, I'd like to hear moreabout it. And now it's like, I
want to know more about you. Iwant to work with you, which I
think was a big differentiatorfor her. Yeah,
Laura Hamill (03:35):
that's huge. Yeah.
So a lot of what we do at thispodcast is we talk about the
topic of well being at work, andhow we think about just having
better work, better lives ingeneral. And so there was
something that that I saw thatyou were kind of talking about,
is around the idea of howcareers should nourish us, yeah,
and not drain us. And it's like,yeah, that's so beautiful. I
(04:00):
love that so much. The nourishword is a good word, isn't it?
Yeah. Just curious, what areyour thoughts on that, and how
do you think about that, andwhat work do you do around Yeah?
You know,
Faye McCray (04:13):
for me, so this is harder, and I will say my pivot
into strategic storytellingreally came at me reaching sort
of an impasse in my career. Iwas burnt out. I kind of reached
a space where I was brought intoa fantastic role, but it was
sort of one of those glass Cliffrules where everything's on
fire, and they're like, come fixit. And, you know, when you're a
certain personality type, youdive head first. You're like,
(04:35):
I'm gonna fix all the things.
And what that did for me was Iwas working 1011, hour days, and
I'm a mom. I have three boys,you know, I have a very
demanding sort of Personal lifeIn addition to work. And I just
reached a point where I waslike, Oh, this is unsustainable.
And it, it was a scary place toarrive at, especially when, you
know, I've been working in somecapacity since I was 14 years
old, you know, until all of asudden, face this, like, I kind
(04:56):
of have to move. Before I maynot be here, right, because I'm
not taking good care of myself.
So reaching that point for me,sort of drilled home the
importance of being inenvironments that are
nourishing. And I think I madethe bold decision to walk away
and sort of take a bet onmyself. It was the first time I
walked away from something andnot into something else. You
(05:19):
know, I had an idea of sort ofplans and things I wanted to do,
but nothing concrete. But I feltthere was an urgency at that
point in my career, and inthrough the process of coming
down from that building mybusiness and self reflection, I
realized, you know, work isinherently transactional. It's,
you know, it's that you getsomething, you give something,
and if you're just giving,you're empty, right? You're left
(05:40):
with so little. So for me, it'sall about sort of reconfronting
that transaction in thatrelationship and making sure
that you're getting as much asyou're giving.
Laura Hamill (05:50):
That's so good, just one little follow up on
that. But it's an interestingthing to come to that conclusion
about being trans at yourself,isn't it? I bet I sort of had a
similar experience in my career,too, where it's more like having
understanding that when you canfeel that really deep sense of
engagement and you really feelconnected and you identify with
your work, it's such a goodfeeling. But that can sometimes
(06:12):
cloud our judgment. Can itaround, wait, this is a GET and
give, and if I just am doingit's, yeah, that's a huge
problem, even if you're gettingsome things back from the org,
you know, but you're giving waymore. Yeah, so, and, yeah, that
idea of kind of separating alittle bit and seeing it for
what it is, but it's not you,it's, it's a, it's a contract,
(06:36):
kind of, it's a, it's anagreement for the get and get,
getting the gap. I love, I lovethe way you just said that that
was cool.
Michael McCarthy (06:43):
So Faye, I think that a lot of people
relate to what you just said.
I'm getting burned out. I'm notgetting nursed enough. I'm
giving more than that. I'mgetting and I recently just left
the dog a job yesterday. And sowe have the same thing no one
ever talks about the middlepart, that in between the
driving yourself crazy. Is thisa good decision? Should I do
this or not? For the people whoare listening, who are like,
(07:05):
Yeah, look, I need the money,but I'm burned out, and I don't
like it, and I don't haveanything else lined up. What
would you advise them on, like,certain things to guide them to
a good decision? Like, like, howdid you make your decision? You
know, where you just didn't endup regretting it?
Faye McCray (07:23):
Yeah, that is such a great question, because that
middle part that, going back, Idrove my husband crazy, I drove
my best friends, like, I mean,it was a lot right, of like,
should I? Shouldn't I? Shouldn'tI? And the interesting thing,
and I will say this, almostunanimously, the people in my
life were kind of like, do itlike, you know, to the point
even my career civil servantparents, my father was like, You
(07:45):
need to just jump. Because Ithink they saw that I was in a
position where I just wasn'tprioritizing myself. And
everybody wanted me around, youknow. So I think having that
support so that even if you'regoing to drive yourself a little
nuts talking to everybody aboutit, I think if you have a strong
circle of people that can reallyencourage you and sort of, you
know, encourage you to do it alittle bit afraid, and you know,
(08:06):
that's ultimately what I had todo. But I think for those
planners that are listening,because there is a part of me
too that had to make sure that Ifelt comfortable from a
financial standpoint as aparent, you know, all of the
things you know, for me, it wassort of gaging my sort of
appetite for the risk, right?
Like, how much is in my savings?
Do I have any other things thatI can monetize? Do I have any
other skill sets that I can do?
And I have to say, I probablyunderestimated myself a little
(08:27):
bit too, because I think whenyou're in this space of just
working and giving and givingand giving and giving, you don't
take inventory of your success.
You don't take inventory of,like, what you've built and what
you're capable of doing. So forme, I had to sort of get back to
the basics of reminding myself,if I can work this hard for
someone else, I can work thishard for myself, you know, I'm
(08:50):
gonna be okay.
Michael McCarthy (08:52):
It's really, we just had a parallel
experience. All of my friendslike, Why are you hesitating?
You know, it's, it's, it'spretty much the same, yeah. And
then, then there is thefinancial part. But the one
thing that I'll add in for me,and I'm curious if it happened
to you, is I was so stressedout. You know, it was like, it's
just such a negative environmentleading and should I leave? And
(09:13):
I don't like this, and I had areally hard time being resilient
and creative and thinking abouthow tomorrow could be a better
day doing something else. AndI'm wondering, did you have that
as well? And if so, how did you,how did you keep yourself in a
good creative space? Yeah,
Faye McCray (09:30):
I think, you know, there's a great quote, I think,
by Brene Brown, if it's like,shame can't bear to be spoken,
you know. So I found myself whenI was getting in the most dark
places, like, kind of like, oh,this may not be okay. This, you
know, may not work out. I saidit out loud, you know, to the
people that I trusted who arearound me, and I use them as my
sounding board to sort of like,let's work this out. Like,
(09:50):
what's the worst thing that canhappen? Like, where does this
end up for you? And I think inthe process of sort of
catastrophizing, I was like, Oh,this is kind of ridiculous.
Like, you know, the end of theday. I can go get another job,
and I could figure that out,even if it's something that's
below my title. You know, I'mnot going to get to the point
where my savings are depletedand nothing else is going to be
left. You know, I still have myskill set, and, God willing, you
(10:11):
have your health, right? Youhave the things that you need.
So for me, it was a lot of thatsort of, a lot of self talk. It
was, it was tough, because Ithink for the first time in my
life, you know, when you're incollege, you're like, I'm going
to graduate college, then, forme, I'm going to go to law
school, then you're going to getthe job, the clerkship, and
you're going to do all thesethings. This was the first time
where I was like, I don't knowwhat's next. You know, I don't
know what's coming next. Therewas a real scary part of that,
(10:33):
but there was also, like, adelicious and wonderful part
about that for the first time,because it was like, Oh, I don't
know what's next, you know,like, who knows? You know what
could come and what things canhappen. And I'll say this too, I
did a vision board because Ihave this wonderful hippie
friend who was like, do thevision board? Like, put all the
things down, right? And I putall the things in in one of them
(10:54):
was a picture of Greece, right?
Like, and it was more kind of astanding for international
travel. I wanted to be able totravel. I was like, maybe a
couple of years from now, I'llbe able to do this from the kids
or whatever, someone reaches outto me on Instagram and invites
me to a writer's retreat sixmonths after I do this vision
board in Greece, right? Youknow, wild, right? You know. And
I'm not one that kind of justsubscribes to this, but I think
(11:15):
because I was being receptive towhat was next for me, there
would be no way that that wouldhave been on my radar had I been
still working and doing the 11hour, 12 hour days, you know,
and I was able to make ithappen. So, you know, just six
months after I left, I foundmyself on a on a beach in
Greece. It was just wild, right?
Like I still am kind of like,was I actually there? But, you
(11:38):
know, it's just one of thosethings that sometimes you just
got to take those bets onyourself.
Laura Hamill (11:43):
It's so interesting how we go right to
what's the worst that can Yeah,right. And like, thinking about
all that like, oh, it's going tobe so bad, it's going to be so
hard, we can't even imagine whatthe best is going to be, right?
You can't even picture it. Butwhen you do, when you try, just
try to frame it like, oh, maybeGreece or maybe, and then, tada,
it cost you, right? And I'm withyou. I like the whole
(12:05):
manifesting thing. My daughter'snight 20 now, and she was really
into that for a while. I'm like,That is ridiculous. You know,
come on, you gotta roll up yoursleeves and do the hard work.
But there's something to like,at least imagining it. About two
years ago, my therapist had medo an exercise of, um, imagine
(12:27):
your best day. Like, what if youcould just create, like, what
your best day would be, kind ofa normal day. What does it look
like? And I did the exercise,wrote it down on a piece of
paper, and it was almostembarrassing to write, because
it wasn't, you know, get up, runreally fast, get in the car, sit
in a commute. You know, be lateto work, be in meetings all day.
(12:48):
You know, what's not that it wasmore, you know, what if we could
actually take our time in themorning and have slow coffee?
And what if I could work out inthe morning, and what if I could
then read a little bit, and thenI want to be with people, and
maybe I could do that too. Soanyway, to your point about
Greece, a lot of the things thatI started to be able to imagine,
(13:09):
I could start making real. So Ilove, I love the way that you
talked about that, and that's socool, curious about I know this
idea of over identifying withour work, and I've been
definitely a person who's donethat, but kind of thinking that
I am my work now, even the ideaof how you introduce yourself,
right, starting, I'm anorganizational psychologist,
(13:29):
it's like, actually, you mightbe more than that. Can you tell
us about how you think about theover identification with work
and maybe the challenges we facearound that? Yeah.
Faye McCray (13:40):
I mean, I think it stems from so many things,
right? Because, like, whenyou're a kid, that first
question you get is, like, whatdo you want to be when you grow
up? And you sort of set thisframework for, like, that is my
identity, right? You know, forme, I always loved writing, but
when I told the adults I wantedto be a lawyer, right, they went
wild, like, yes, right, youknow. And then that becomes the
(14:01):
thing. And I think, you know, Igrew up working class in Queens
in New York, you know, that'salso a way to bridge that gap to
privilege. You know, you startworking hard. People are
impressed. They start seeing youdifferently. So you start
leading with that. And I thinkit was a perfect storm for me,
kind of, to grow up and just belike, This is who I am, right?
And I was the first I am alawyer, or whatever the title
(14:21):
was, you know, when you're atthe party, and that's what you
lead with, you know, and I thinkthat I realized that that was a
big part of leading to brown,like, I had to really say you
played a huge role in this,like, you know, in in getting to
this point, because they didn'ttake what you weren't willing to
give. Like, no one was saying,work these 12 hours, but it was
like, I'm gonna put this meetingon your schedule at this time.
And then it's like, okay, youknow, you don't push back by
(14:44):
tomorrow, okay, you know, I'lldo this, right? And you don't
say no, you just keep sayingyes, and you keep saying yes.
And I think before you know it,you look up and you're like,
where am I in all of this?
Right? And I think for me,that's why it became so
important to me as a part ofsort of this, this period in my
life. Of exploration is like, Igotta figure this out, and not
just for me as a parent, as aperson who may lead again and in
(15:05):
certain environments, like Iwant to be in a place where
people feel comfortable kind ofshowing up wholly
Laura Hamill (15:11):
and turning off.
Yeah, so good.
Michael McCarthy (15:16):
I love the term of over identifying. And I
also kind of want to bring inthe opposite under identifying.
And I didn't notice this from agenerational perspective, the
older generations, which I guessnow I'm going to be a part of.
You know, our career was who weare, who are you? I'm a lawyer.
Who are you? I'm a psychologist.
But I noticed Gen Z. I mean, Ilove them because they're so
(15:38):
interesting and independentthinking. And I've noticed some
people might think that they'reunder identifying that, you
know, I have other things thatare much more important to who
and where I am. You're here todo the paycheck and fulfill some
other needs I may have. Where doyou think there's a sweet spot
on over identifying, underidentifying, healthy
(16:01):
identification. Have you thoughtabout maybe some guidelines on
how people can see, like, hey,how am I doing? Am I being
healthy with my work?
Faye McCray (16:09):
Yeah, you know, it's funny, because I haven't
thought about this a lot, but Ithink that the way that each
generation approached its workis almost a critique on the
previous generation. So, like, Iwas raised by baby boomers who
worked the same job, you know,kind of started and until
retirement. And for me, youknow, that was something that I
was like, Well, I never want todo that, you know. So, you know,
my career was sort of marked bymoving and, you know, finding
(16:31):
different experiences. But thatalso meant I worked all the
time. And I think a lot of folksthat are coming up now have
witnessed us have sort of thisexperience of, like, just being
completely entrenched in all ofit, and they're like, I'm not
doing that. So in some ways, Ireally admire Gen Z, you know,
for that, in their ability tosay, I'm gonna disconnect, I'm
gonna prioritize other parts ofmy well being. It wasn't always
(16:54):
easy as a supervisor withmembers of Gen Z because of but
I think it was also instructivefor me of the agency that they
took. You know, I think there'ssomething to be said for
planning roots and developingskills and growing, but I also
think there's a beauty inprioritizing your own growth.
And I think it's just individualyou know, at the end of the day,
I think that you need to feelcomfortable with your path, with
(17:15):
what you're doing, and I thinkwe can learn from one another in
that way.
Laura Hamill (17:20):
So good. One of the topics in well being that I
feel like is an interesting oneat work, especially, is the
topic of resilience. And I havesuch a mixed feeling about the
topic of resilience, because Ilook back and I like, okay, I
guess I've been resilient in myjob and my life, and that's
helped me a lot, right? But Ialso feel like it puts a lot of
burden on people to beresilient, right? And to and to
(17:44):
never, kind of expect somethingmore from the system that
they're working in to change andget better. And so I always, you
know, kind of toy with the ideaof, what does a resilient
organization look like, or whatdoes it look like to support
people to be resilient, versusjust expecting people to be
resilient. But I don't, I don'tknow what your kind of thoughts
are on that topic.
Faye McCray (18:04):
Yeah, it's funny.
This used to come up a lot. So Iused to lead a mental health
website called psych Central,and this used to come up a lot
for us, like this idea ofresilience, and what are we
asking people when we ask themto be resilient? You know, I
think it's a worthwhilequestion. I think for me, I
define resilience for so long,and like sticking to it and
sticking it out, and like doingthe thing and just kind of
(18:24):
powering through, you know? AndI realized there's beauty in
saying enough, you know, like,that's enough. It's okay. It's
okay to when you've kind ofgotten your film, it's okay to
say, you know, I want to move onfrom something. So I think it's
how we define it, right? Youknow. I think your ability to
sort of navigate throughdifficult situations and in
(18:45):
different occult environmentsand pivot, you know, and all of
those things, is a beautifulthing. It's a survival tactic,
you know. But not if you're ifyou're suffering, you know. Not
if you're in a space where youknow, you're realizing, like
you're at your breaking point.
There's something, you know,there's something not so great
Michael McCarthy (19:04):
about that.
Yeah, for sure, you make aninteresting point. It can also
be hard to have perspective whenyou're in something and it gets
tougher and it's like, okay,we'll just lean in, just more.
And you go on that path, andwhen that's not working out,
like, well, you're not resilientenough. Like, you've really
gotta, you know, squeeze thesqueeze some more juice out of
the lemon. And of course,there's always that point of
(19:27):
like, well, when do you stop?
When do you like, look, it'sjust time to cut this. And one
thing that I've done is I'vesaid to myself, and I always get
the same answer. I've done thisfor like, 20 years, knowing what
I know now, would I say yes tothis? And I'd be like, No way.
(19:48):
And I'm wondering, do you haveany like, cut offs or metrics
where you know things are justgetting tougher, tougher,
tougher, and you're trying to dothe resilience and lean in? Is
there a point at which you sayenough? And. Up, and how would
people gage that? Yeah,
Faye McCray (20:04):
you know, it's almost, you know, for me, you
know, I think there's just areframing of, sort of my
objectives in a work environmentlike naturally, you know, I want
to be a team player. I want togive my my best. I want to do
the job as assigned, right? ButI also have my own metrics that
I go into environments with now,you know, and a lot of them
revolve around growth, right? AmI growing? Am I learning? You
(20:26):
know, do I feel like forwhatever's next, I'm preparing
myself, you know, in someframework, you know, within the
context of this, of thisenvironment, you know. So for
me, if those things are steppedon, you know, or if it's just no
longer aligned with my values.
Those are usually a sign if I'mjust working for the sake of
work, you know. And I'm almostlike spinning on a wheel and not
(20:46):
getting anywhere, you know,selfishly, I probably look more
at it myself, you know. And whatI need, you know, in those
environments, I remember havingan employee years ago coming
into an organization, and shetold me one of our first
meetings, you know, I've wantedto get promoted, you know, for
years, I've, you know, poached acouple times. People wanted me
to go to these otherenvironments, but I stayed
(21:08):
loyal. You know. I rememberthinking at the time like,
that's good, you know, but sortof in retrospect, I was like,
girl, you should have laughed.
Had this opportunity to grow andbe a part of these other but the
loyalty was just so it was justso interesting. And, you know,
just brings me to sort ofanother point about our
(21:29):
relationship with work, youknow, it's almost like there's a
parental sort of like you gofrom your parents house to these
environments, and you expectthese job opportunities to sort
of fill this role for you, youknow, and you stop prioritizing
what you need, you know. And inher case, she was fantastic and
amazing. Unfortunately, I camein sort of inheriting a budget
where I just didn't have theability, you know. And as a
(21:51):
leader, it's, it's sort ofcounterintuitive to say, look
for other things, you know, inan environment, because you need
people, but you have to be, youhave to take that on yourself.
Like to be able to look out foryourself and do those things,
Laura Hamill (22:04):
that's so such a good point. And the thing that
you said kind of within a lot ofthat is you have to know what
you need. You have to know whatyou value. And I think that's
for many of us. It takes a longtime to figure that out, right?
You kind of think, oh, I needwhat they're giving, or I value
what they're offering, yeah,getting clear about that for
yourself is sometimes reallychallenging, because there's
(22:26):
some things that maybe you couldgo, you know, either way, on,
but other things that you needto understand about yourself to
to know what, what's really thestuff that you don't want to
waver on. Yeah? So yeah, that'ssuch a good point. Well, we are
almost done with our timetogether. Faye, this has been
wonderful. I wonder, could youjust kind of close us out with
some words of advice? Or, youknow, as people are thinking
(22:50):
about, you know, maybe somepeople who are listening are
struggling with some of the samethings that you've gone through.
What are some things you wouldlike to just leave them with?
Yeah,
Faye McCray (22:58):
you know, I would say just because I am a
catastrophizer and an anxiousone. You know, I started a
newsletter called What if it'sall works out? It's on sub
stack. And part of it is becauseI ask myself that question every
day when I'm thinking aboutsomething new, when I'm thinking
about doing something that I'mafraid of. It is so easy to go
down that road, to just startthinking of all the ways that
it's going to go wrong or itwon't work. But like, what if it
(23:20):
does right? Like, what if it allworks out? What if it's okay?
So, you know, I just want toencourage folks to ask
themselves that question. It wasnot a completely smooth ride,
you know, it was bumpy. It wasfearful there. You know, I
drove, like I said, everyone inmy life crazy, like thinking
about all the things, but it isso much sweeter than being in a
place where I didn't see thepossibilities of something
(23:41):
better, because I was so afraidto look right. It's just so much
better to be in a place whereyou're open and receptive to
that and you know, it'sexciting. You know, don't be
afraid. You know, don't beafraid of the possibilities that
it could all work out. So
Laura Hamill (23:54):
good. Awesome.
Faye, thank you so much forjoining us. We just love talking
with you. So thanks so much.
Thank you. Bye, bye, bye.
Michael McCarthy (24:07):
We hope you've enjoyed this episode. If you'd
like to hear future episodes, besure to subscribe to the happy
at work podcast and leave us areview with your thoughts.
Tessa Misiaszek (24:17):
Are you interested in speaking on a
future episode, or want tocollaborate with us. Let us know
you can send us an email atadmin, at happy, at work,
podcast.com,
Laura Hamill (24:29):
and lastly, follow us on LinkedIn or Twitter for
even more happiness. See yousoon. You
Music, welcome back for another episode of the
happy at work podcast with LauraTessa and Michael.
Tessa Misiaszek (00:14):
Each week, we have thoughtful conversations
with leaders, founders andauthors about happiness at work.
Michael McCarthy (00:22):
Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation.
Enjoy the show.
Laura Hamill (00:38):
Welcome to the happy at work podcast today,
we're so excited to have FayeMcCarthy joining us. Faye,
welcome. Thank you. Thanks forhaving me. Yeah, so glad you're
here. Well, what we always loveto start with is tell us about
you, tell us about what you do,and a bit about your career.
Faye McCray (00:57):
Yeah. So right now, I own my own consulting
practice, but like so manythings, twisty turny road to
getting here. So studied law,practiced law for about a
decade, and before kind ofpivoting into media and
journalism, it was very PassionDriven. I've always sort of been
a closeted writer, so I waswriting on the side for a really
long time, and then sort ofwrote my way into a career in
(01:17):
media, which was fantastic, youknow, really great works in the
wellness space, health andwellness, which mirrored my path
in law, because I practicehealth law, and then, you know,
kind of pivoted into this spaceof consulting right now. So I
work on strategic storytelling.
So I work with with folks thatare really interested in sort of
getting to the root of their whyand learning how better to
(01:37):
connect with their audiences. I
Michael McCarthy (01:40):
love that. Can you tell us some of the can you
tell us your favorite storyabout someone connecting through
storytelling that you've helped?
Faye McCray (01:48):
Yeah, I'm, you know, I almost feel like it
would be unfair to give afavorite, because I feel like
I've just heard so many justbeautiful stories of why people
connect with the work they doand why they do. This is a bit
of a sad one, but I had a clientwho lost a child, and it just
devastated their family, andtheir oldest son had a very
tough time with it and struggledwith addiction for years. He's
(02:10):
come out on the other side ofit, thankfully. You know,
they're they're on the mend as afamily. But for her, it really
sort of shaped how she showed upin the work that she did. So she
was in the nonprofit space,particularly in behavioral
health, and she is all aboutstrengthening nonprofit. So it's
this dry subject of nonprofit,but her whole goal is to make
(02:30):
sure that like families aren'timpacted the way that hers was.
So she's a connector and arelationship builder. And for a
long time, she sort of shiedaway from that story. I think
she was sort of nervous to getreally personal when she talked
about her work, but I thinkshe's realized now it's her
superpower, because she cares,she cares, and the people that
she works with, they know thatshe cares.
Michael McCarthy (02:50):
And just to follow up on that story, what
was, what was the impact to her,and how she showed up to work
after she was comfortabletelling that story? What was the
impact for her?
Faye McCray (03:01):
Yeah, I think connection, you know, I think
that's the thing that I get themost from people, is like, when
they're able to share thesethreads, whether or not it's a
note in their inbox, or whetherit's someone coming up to them
after a keynote, or just wantingto work for them and work with
them. I think those are thebiggest things. And for her, I
think, you know, the first timeshe shared that story, she
immediately sent me a note, likethere was a line waiting for her
(03:22):
at the end of the conference totalk to her about her story and
her work. And usually it's like,oh, yeah, this is great work.
You know, I'd like to hear moreabout it. And now it's like, I
want to know more about you. Iwant to work with you, which I
think was a big differentiatorfor her. Yeah,
Laura Hamill (03:35):
that's huge. Yeah.
So a lot of what we do at thispodcast is we talk about the
topic of well being at work, andhow we think about just having
better work, better lives ingeneral. And so there was
something that that I saw thatyou were kind of talking about,
is around the idea of howcareers should nourish us, yeah,
and not drain us. And it's like,yeah, that's so beautiful. I
(04:00):
love that so much. The nourishword is a good word, isn't it?
Yeah. Just curious, what areyour thoughts on that, and how
do you think about that, andwhat work do you do around Yeah?
You know,
Faye McCray (04:13):
for me, so this is harder, and I will say my pivot
into strategic storytellingreally came at me reaching sort
of an impasse in my career. Iwas burnt out. I kind of reached
a space where I was brought intoa fantastic role, but it was
sort of one of those glass Cliffrules where everything's on
fire, and they're like, come fixit. And, you know, when you're a
certain personality type, youdive head first. You're like,
(04:35):
I'm gonna fix all the things.
And what that did for me was Iwas working 1011, hour days, and
I'm a mom. I have three boys,you know, I have a very
demanding sort of Personal lifeIn addition to work. And I just
reached a point where I waslike, Oh, this is unsustainable.
And it, it was a scary place toarrive at, especially when, you
know, I've been working in somecapacity since I was 14 years
old, you know, until all of asudden, face this, like, I kind
(04:56):
of have to move. Before I maynot be here, right, because I'm
not taking good care of myself.
So reaching that point for me,sort of drilled home the
importance of being inenvironments that are
nourishing. And I think I madethe bold decision to walk away
and sort of take a bet onmyself. It was the first time I
walked away from something andnot into something else. You
(05:19):
know, I had an idea of sort ofplans and things I wanted to do,
but nothing concrete. But I feltthere was an urgency at that
point in my career, and inthrough the process of coming
down from that building mybusiness and self reflection, I
realized, you know, work isinherently transactional. It's,
you know, it's that you getsomething, you give something,
and if you're just giving,you're empty, right? You're left
(05:40):
with so little. So for me, it'sall about sort of reconfronting
that transaction in thatrelationship and making sure
that you're getting as much asyou're giving.
Laura Hamill (05:50):
That's so good, just one little follow up on
that. But it's an interestingthing to come to that conclusion
about being trans at yourself,isn't it? I bet I sort of had a
similar experience in my career,too, where it's more like having
understanding that when you canfeel that really deep sense of
engagement and you really feelconnected and you identify with
your work, it's such a goodfeeling. But that can sometimes
(06:12):
cloud our judgment. Can itaround, wait, this is a GET and
give, and if I just am doingit's, yeah, that's a huge
problem, even if you're gettingsome things back from the org,
you know, but you're giving waymore. Yeah, so, and, yeah, that
idea of kind of separating alittle bit and seeing it for
what it is, but it's not you,it's, it's a, it's a contract,
(06:36):
kind of, it's a, it's anagreement for the get and get,
getting the gap. I love, I lovethe way you just said that that
was cool.
Michael McCarthy (06:43):
So Faye, I think that a lot of people
relate to what you just said.
I'm getting burned out. I'm notgetting nursed enough. I'm
giving more than that. I'mgetting and I recently just left
the dog a job yesterday. And sowe have the same thing no one
ever talks about the middlepart, that in between the
driving yourself crazy. Is thisa good decision? Should I do
this or not? For the people whoare listening, who are like,
(07:05):
Yeah, look, I need the money,but I'm burned out, and I don't
like it, and I don't haveanything else lined up. What
would you advise them on, like,certain things to guide them to
a good decision? Like, like, howdid you make your decision? You
know, where you just didn't endup regretting it?
Faye McCray (07:23):
Yeah, that is such a great question, because that
middle part that, going back, Idrove my husband crazy, I drove
my best friends, like, I mean,it was a lot right, of like,
should I? Shouldn't I? Shouldn'tI? And the interesting thing,
and I will say this, almostunanimously, the people in my
life were kind of like, do itlike, you know, to the point
even my career civil servantparents, my father was like, You
(07:45):
need to just jump. Because Ithink they saw that I was in a
position where I just wasn'tprioritizing myself. And
everybody wanted me around, youknow. So I think having that
support so that even if you'regoing to drive yourself a little
nuts talking to everybody aboutit, I think if you have a strong
circle of people that can reallyencourage you and sort of, you
know, encourage you to do it alittle bit afraid, and you know,
(08:06):
that's ultimately what I had todo. But I think for those
planners that are listening,because there is a part of me
too that had to make sure that Ifelt comfortable from a
financial standpoint as aparent, you know, all of the
things you know, for me, it wassort of gaging my sort of
appetite for the risk, right?
Like, how much is in my savings?
Do I have any other things thatI can monetize? Do I have any
other skill sets that I can do?
And I have to say, I probablyunderestimated myself a little
(08:27):
bit too, because I think whenyou're in this space of just
working and giving and givingand giving and giving, you don't
take inventory of your success.
You don't take inventory of,like, what you've built and what
you're capable of doing. So forme, I had to sort of get back to
the basics of reminding myself,if I can work this hard for
someone else, I can work thishard for myself, you know, I'm
(08:50):
gonna be okay.
Michael McCarthy (08:52):
It's really, we just had a parallel
experience. All of my friendslike, Why are you hesitating?
You know, it's, it's, it'spretty much the same, yeah. And
then, then there is thefinancial part. But the one
thing that I'll add in for me,and I'm curious if it happened
to you, is I was so stressedout. You know, it was like, it's
just such a negative environmentleading and should I leave? And
(09:13):
I don't like this, and I had areally hard time being resilient
and creative and thinking abouthow tomorrow could be a better
day doing something else. AndI'm wondering, did you have that
as well? And if so, how did you,how did you keep yourself in a
good creative space? Yeah,
Faye McCray (09:30):
I think, you know, there's a great quote, I think,
by Brene Brown, if it's like,shame can't bear to be spoken,
you know. So I found myself whenI was getting in the most dark
places, like, kind of like, oh,this may not be okay. This, you
know, may not work out. I saidit out loud, you know, to the
people that I trusted who arearound me, and I use them as my
sounding board to sort of like,let's work this out. Like,
(09:50):
what's the worst thing that canhappen? Like, where does this
end up for you? And I think inthe process of sort of
catastrophizing, I was like, Oh,this is kind of ridiculous.
Like, you know, the end of theday. I can go get another job,
and I could figure that out,even if it's something that's
below my title. You know, I'mnot going to get to the point
where my savings are depletedand nothing else is going to be
left. You know, I still have myskill set, and, God willing, you
(10:11):
have your health, right? Youhave the things that you need.
So for me, it was a lot of thatsort of, a lot of self talk. It
was, it was tough, because Ithink for the first time in my
life, you know, when you're incollege, you're like, I'm going
to graduate college, then, forme, I'm going to go to law
school, then you're going to getthe job, the clerkship, and
you're going to do all thesethings. This was the first time
where I was like, I don't knowwhat's next. You know, I don't
know what's coming next. Therewas a real scary part of that,
(10:33):
but there was also, like, adelicious and wonderful part
about that for the first time,because it was like, Oh, I don't
know what's next, you know,like, who knows? You know what
could come and what things canhappen. And I'll say this too, I
did a vision board because Ihave this wonderful hippie
friend who was like, do thevision board? Like, put all the
things down, right? And I putall the things in in one of them
(10:54):
was a picture of Greece, right?
Like, and it was more kind of astanding for international
travel. I wanted to be able totravel. I was like, maybe a
couple of years from now, I'llbe able to do this from the kids
or whatever, someone reaches outto me on Instagram and invites
me to a writer's retreat sixmonths after I do this vision
board in Greece, right? Youknow, wild, right? You know. And
I'm not one that kind of justsubscribes to this, but I think
(11:15):
because I was being receptive towhat was next for me, there
would be no way that that wouldhave been on my radar had I been
still working and doing the 11hour, 12 hour days, you know,
and I was able to make ithappen. So, you know, just six
months after I left, I foundmyself on a on a beach in
Greece. It was just wild, right?
Like I still am kind of like,was I actually there? But, you
(11:38):
know, it's just one of thosethings that sometimes you just
got to take those bets onyourself.
Laura Hamill (11:43):
It's so interesting how we go right to
what's the worst that can Yeah,right. And like, thinking about
all that like, oh, it's going tobe so bad, it's going to be so
hard, we can't even imagine whatthe best is going to be, right?
You can't even picture it. Butwhen you do, when you try, just
try to frame it like, oh, maybeGreece or maybe, and then, tada,
it cost you, right? And I'm withyou. I like the whole
(12:05):
manifesting thing. My daughter'snight 20 now, and she was really
into that for a while. I'm like,That is ridiculous. You know,
come on, you gotta roll up yoursleeves and do the hard work.
But there's something to like,at least imagining it. About two
years ago, my therapist had medo an exercise of, um, imagine
(12:27):
your best day. Like, what if youcould just create, like, what
your best day would be, kind ofa normal day. What does it look
like? And I did the exercise,wrote it down on a piece of
paper, and it was almostembarrassing to write, because
it wasn't, you know, get up, runreally fast, get in the car, sit
in a commute. You know, be lateto work, be in meetings all day.
(12:48):
You know, what's not that it wasmore, you know, what if we could
actually take our time in themorning and have slow coffee?
And what if I could work out inthe morning, and what if I could
then read a little bit, and thenI want to be with people, and
maybe I could do that too. Soanyway, to your point about
Greece, a lot of the things thatI started to be able to imagine,
(13:09):
I could start making real. So Ilove, I love the way that you
talked about that, and that's socool, curious about I know this
idea of over identifying withour work, and I've been
definitely a person who's donethat, but kind of thinking that
I am my work now, even the ideaof how you introduce yourself,
right, starting, I'm anorganizational psychologist,
(13:29):
it's like, actually, you mightbe more than that. Can you tell
us about how you think about theover identification with work
and maybe the challenges we facearound that? Yeah.
Faye McCray (13:40):
I mean, I think it stems from so many things,
right? Because, like, whenyou're a kid, that first
question you get is, like, whatdo you want to be when you grow
up? And you sort of set thisframework for, like, that is my
identity, right? You know, forme, I always loved writing, but
when I told the adults I wantedto be a lawyer, right, they went
wild, like, yes, right, youknow. And then that becomes the
(14:01):
thing. And I think, you know, Igrew up working class in Queens
in New York, you know, that'salso a way to bridge that gap to
privilege. You know, you startworking hard. People are
impressed. They start seeing youdifferently. So you start
leading with that. And I thinkit was a perfect storm for me,
kind of, to grow up and just belike, This is who I am, right?
And I was the first I am alawyer, or whatever the title
(14:21):
was, you know, when you're atthe party, and that's what you
lead with, you know, and I thinkthat I realized that that was a
big part of leading to brown,like, I had to really say you
played a huge role in this,like, you know, in in getting to
this point, because they didn'ttake what you weren't willing to
give. Like, no one was saying,work these 12 hours, but it was
like, I'm gonna put this meetingon your schedule at this time.
And then it's like, okay, youknow, you don't push back by
(14:44):
tomorrow, okay, you know, I'lldo this, right? And you don't
say no, you just keep sayingyes, and you keep saying yes.
And I think before you know it,you look up and you're like,
where am I in all of this?
Right? And I think for me,that's why it became so
important to me as a part ofsort of this, this period in my
life. Of exploration is like, Igotta figure this out, and not
just for me as a parent, as aperson who may lead again and in
(15:05):
certain environments, like Iwant to be in a place where
people feel comfortable kind ofshowing up wholly
Laura Hamill (15:11):
and turning off.
Yeah, so good.
Michael McCarthy (15:16):
I love the term of over identifying. And I
also kind of want to bring inthe opposite under identifying.
And I didn't notice this from agenerational perspective, the
older generations, which I guessnow I'm going to be a part of.
You know, our career was who weare, who are you? I'm a lawyer.
Who are you? I'm a psychologist.
But I noticed Gen Z. I mean, Ilove them because they're so
(15:38):
interesting and independentthinking. And I've noticed some
people might think that they'reunder identifying that, you
know, I have other things thatare much more important to who
and where I am. You're here todo the paycheck and fulfill some
other needs I may have. Where doyou think there's a sweet spot
on over identifying, underidentifying, healthy
(16:01):
identification. Have you thoughtabout maybe some guidelines on
how people can see, like, hey,how am I doing? Am I being
healthy with my work?
Faye McCray (16:09):
Yeah, you know, it's funny, because I haven't
thought about this a lot, but Ithink that the way that each
generation approached its workis almost a critique on the
previous generation. So, like, Iwas raised by baby boomers who
worked the same job, you know,kind of started and until
retirement. And for me, youknow, that was something that I
was like, Well, I never want todo that, you know. So, you know,
my career was sort of marked bymoving and, you know, finding
(16:31):
different experiences. But thatalso meant I worked all the
time. And I think a lot of folksthat are coming up now have
witnessed us have sort of thisexperience of, like, just being
completely entrenched in all ofit, and they're like, I'm not
doing that. So in some ways, Ireally admire Gen Z, you know,
for that, in their ability tosay, I'm gonna disconnect, I'm
gonna prioritize other parts ofmy well being. It wasn't always
(16:54):
easy as a supervisor withmembers of Gen Z because of but
I think it was also instructivefor me of the agency that they
took. You know, I think there'ssomething to be said for
planning roots and developingskills and growing, but I also
think there's a beauty inprioritizing your own growth.
And I think it's just individualyou know, at the end of the day,
I think that you need to feelcomfortable with your path, with
(17:15):
what you're doing, and I thinkwe can learn from one another in
that way.
Laura Hamill (17:20):
So good. One of the topics in well being that I
feel like is an interesting oneat work, especially, is the
topic of resilience. And I havesuch a mixed feeling about the
topic of resilience, because Ilook back and I like, okay, I
guess I've been resilient in myjob and my life, and that's
helped me a lot, right? But Ialso feel like it puts a lot of
burden on people to beresilient, right? And to and to
(17:44):
never, kind of expect somethingmore from the system that
they're working in to change andget better. And so I always, you
know, kind of toy with the ideaof, what does a resilient
organization look like, or whatdoes it look like to support
people to be resilient, versusjust expecting people to be
resilient. But I don't, I don'tknow what your kind of thoughts
are on that topic.
Faye McCray (18:04):
Yeah, it's funny.
This used to come up a lot. So Iused to lead a mental health
website called psych Central,and this used to come up a lot
for us, like this idea ofresilience, and what are we
asking people when we ask themto be resilient? You know, I
think it's a worthwhilequestion. I think for me, I
define resilience for so long,and like sticking to it and
sticking it out, and like doingthe thing and just kind of
(18:24):
powering through, you know? AndI realized there's beauty in
saying enough, you know, like,that's enough. It's okay. It's
okay to when you've kind ofgotten your film, it's okay to
say, you know, I want to move onfrom something. So I think it's
how we define it, right? Youknow. I think your ability to
sort of navigate throughdifficult situations and in
(18:45):
different occult environmentsand pivot, you know, and all of
those things, is a beautifulthing. It's a survival tactic,
you know. But not if you're ifyou're suffering, you know. Not
if you're in a space where youknow, you're realizing, like
you're at your breaking point.
There's something, you know,there's something not so great
Michael McCarthy (19:04):
about that.
Yeah, for sure, you make aninteresting point. It can also
be hard to have perspective whenyou're in something and it gets
tougher and it's like, okay,we'll just lean in, just more.
And you go on that path, andwhen that's not working out,
like, well, you're not resilientenough. Like, you've really
gotta, you know, squeeze thesqueeze some more juice out of
the lemon. And of course,there's always that point of
(19:27):
like, well, when do you stop?
When do you like, look, it'sjust time to cut this. And one
thing that I've done is I'vesaid to myself, and I always get
the same answer. I've done thisfor like, 20 years, knowing what
I know now, would I say yes tothis? And I'd be like, No way.
(19:48):
And I'm wondering, do you haveany like, cut offs or metrics
where you know things are justgetting tougher, tougher,
tougher, and you're trying to dothe resilience and lean in? Is
there a point at which you sayenough? And. Up, and how would
people gage that? Yeah,
Faye McCray (20:04):
you know, it's almost, you know, for me, you
know, I think there's just areframing of, sort of my
objectives in a work environmentlike naturally, you know, I want
to be a team player. I want togive my my best. I want to do
the job as assigned, right? ButI also have my own metrics that
I go into environments with now,you know, and a lot of them
revolve around growth, right? AmI growing? Am I learning? You
(20:26):
know, do I feel like forwhatever's next, I'm preparing
myself, you know, in someframework, you know, within the
context of this, of thisenvironment, you know. So for
me, if those things are steppedon, you know, or if it's just no
longer aligned with my values.
Those are usually a sign if I'mjust working for the sake of
work, you know. And I'm almostlike spinning on a wheel and not
(20:46):
getting anywhere, you know,selfishly, I probably look more
at it myself, you know. And whatI need, you know, in those
environments, I remember havingan employee years ago coming
into an organization, and shetold me one of our first
meetings, you know, I've wantedto get promoted, you know, for
years, I've, you know, poached acouple times. People wanted me
to go to these otherenvironments, but I stayed
(21:08):
loyal. You know. I rememberthinking at the time like,
that's good, you know, but sortof in retrospect, I was like,
girl, you should have laughed.
Had this opportunity to grow andbe a part of these other but the
loyalty was just so it was justso interesting. And, you know,
just brings me to sort ofanother point about our
(21:29):
relationship with work, youknow, it's almost like there's a
parental sort of like you gofrom your parents house to these
environments, and you expectthese job opportunities to sort
of fill this role for you, youknow, and you stop prioritizing
what you need, you know. And inher case, she was fantastic and
amazing. Unfortunately, I camein sort of inheriting a budget
where I just didn't have theability, you know. And as a
(21:51):
leader, it's, it's sort ofcounterintuitive to say, look
for other things, you know, inan environment, because you need
people, but you have to be, youhave to take that on yourself.
Like to be able to look out foryourself and do those things,
Laura Hamill (22:04):
that's so such a good point. And the thing that
you said kind of within a lot ofthat is you have to know what
you need. You have to know whatyou value. And I think that's
for many of us. It takes a longtime to figure that out, right?
You kind of think, oh, I needwhat they're giving, or I value
what they're offering, yeah,getting clear about that for
yourself is sometimes reallychallenging, because there's
(22:26):
some things that maybe you couldgo, you know, either way, on,
but other things that you needto understand about yourself to
to know what, what's really thestuff that you don't want to
waver on. Yeah? So yeah, that'ssuch a good point. Well, we are
almost done with our timetogether. Faye, this has been
wonderful. I wonder, could youjust kind of close us out with
some words of advice? Or, youknow, as people are thinking
(22:50):
about, you know, maybe somepeople who are listening are
struggling with some of the samethings that you've gone through.
What are some things you wouldlike to just leave them with?
Yeah,
Faye McCray (22:58):
you know, I would say just because I am a
catastrophizer and an anxiousone. You know, I started a
newsletter called What if it'sall works out? It's on sub
stack. And part of it is becauseI ask myself that question every
day when I'm thinking aboutsomething new, when I'm thinking
about doing something that I'mafraid of. It is so easy to go
down that road, to just startthinking of all the ways that
it's going to go wrong or itwon't work. But like, what if it
(23:20):
does right? Like, what if it allworks out? What if it's okay?
So, you know, I just want toencourage folks to ask
themselves that question. It wasnot a completely smooth ride,
you know, it was bumpy. It wasfearful there. You know, I
drove, like I said, everyone inmy life crazy, like thinking
about all the things, but it isso much sweeter than being in a
place where I didn't see thepossibilities of something
(23:41):
better, because I was so afraidto look right. It's just so much
better to be in a place whereyou're open and receptive to
that and you know, it'sexciting. You know, don't be
afraid. You know, don't beafraid of the possibilities that
it could all work out. So
Laura Hamill (23:54):
good. Awesome.
Faye, thank you so much forjoining us. We just love talking
with you. So thanks so much.
Thank you. Bye, bye, bye.
Michael McCarthy (24:07):
We hope you've enjoyed this episode. If you'd
like to hear future episodes, besure to subscribe to the happy
at work podcast and leave us areview with your thoughts.
Tessa Misiaszek (24:17):
Are you interested in speaking on a
future episode, or want tocollaborate with us. Let us know
you can send us an email atadmin, at happy, at work,
podcast.com,
Laura Hamill (24:29):
and lastly, follow us on LinkedIn or Twitter for
even more happiness. See yousoon. You
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