April 2, 2025 • 23 mins
Kevin Eikenberry shares his expertise on flexible leadership, arguing that flexibility is the essential antidote to uncertainty in our complex, ever-changing world. Drawing from his experiences growing up on a Michigan farm and three decades running his leadership development company, he offers practical wisdom on leading through turbulent times.
• The key to flexible leadership is embracing "both/and" thinking instead of "either/or" approaches
• Leaders must manage tensions between priorities rather than choosing one extreme
• When facing uncertainty, leaders should share what they know when they know it to prevent harmful rumors
• Creating a flexible organization requires having conversations about change, not just informing people
• During change, remind people what's NOT changing to provide stability and context
• Micromanagement prevents organizations from accessing up to 40% of their employees' skills
• If your leadership approach isn't evolving while the world is changing, you're increasingly out of alignment
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And don't forget to check out our previous episodes for more tips and strategies to boost your workplace happiness. You can find them on your favorite podcast platform or on our website.
If you have any questions, comments, or topic suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you!
Stay inspired, stay motivated, and stay happy at work!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome back for another episode of the Happy at
Work podcast with Laura Tessaand Michael.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Each week we have thoughtful conversations with
leaders, founders and authorsabout happiness at work.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation.
Enjoy the show.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Welcome to the Happy at Work podcast.
Today we're so excited to haveKevin Eikenberry here with us.
Kevin, thank you so much forjoining us.
You're a podcaster, aconsultant, a speaker and an
author of multiple books.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
I'm glad to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Absolutely so.
Let's start by you telling usabout yourself.
Tell us about you and yourcareer journey.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
You don't want to start when I was born, right?
We want to go a little laterthan that.
So it is important, it is Well,so that'll be fine and that'll
be the only thing we'll do.
I think it's important in thecontext that I'm sure why you're
asking the question to know alittle bit about where I come
from and where I come from as afarm in Michigan, and that
(01:28):
experience both the farmexperience but also the business
experience being a part of afamily, two family businesses,
agriculture related I have ahuge impact on my outlook, on my
perspective, and certainly wasthe starting point for my career
.
So I had the chance to bearound and watch leaders and
really grew up with my parentsbecause they're only 20 years
older than me, so I had thechance to really spend time with
(01:48):
my dad in the business and withother customers, vendors, et
cetera, from a young age, and soI think that has had a huge
impact on my life and my career.
I went to school at PurdueUniversity.
I'm a proud Boilermaker.
I went to work in, I went towork in corporate America for
about eight years in sales andmarketing and found my way into
training and development, andthen about 31 and a half or so
(02:09):
years ago, I left there to startthe company that is now called
the Kevin Eikenberry Group, andwhen I started at Chevron, I
fully expected that I eventuallywould work for myself, I'd have
my own company, but I didn'tnecessarily know it would be
this.
It was during my time therethat I figured out that I was
put on the planet to do trainingand development work.
And there fast forward 31 years, a few months to right now on
(02:32):
this podcast.
Speaker 5 (02:32):
Fantastic, kevin.
So you have written a bookrecently called Flexible
Leadership Navigate Uncertaintyand Lead with Confidence, and I
can't think of a more perfecttitle, considering the world is
crazy right now, and if there'sanything more true, it's the
fact that the world is quiteuncertain in this moment.
(02:53):
Tell us about your book.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
What does it mean to be a flexible leader, and we'd
love to learn more about thatWell, yeah, I mean, I'm so glad
that I had the foresight to putthe word uncertainty in the
subtitle and because I thinkthat you know, I think I heard
someone say a while back that,well, things are more uncertain
now than ever, and I'm like Idon't think any of us can now,
as we're doing this, recordingto the start of the pandemic,
(03:26):
like literally, depending onwhere you are in the world,
today is five years, you knowagain as we're recording this.
So, but not just then, buteverything around us, there is
uncertainty in large quantities,and I think that, as leaders,
we have a responsibility tonavigate it.
We have an opportunity tonavigate it.
We have an opportunity tonavigate it, and our ability to
(03:46):
do that has a huge ripple impacton our teams and our
organizations and, in fact, howthat all then plays out in the
rest of the world.
So I'm super pleased that Ithink the book can make an
impact in this time.
As it relates to your questionspecifically, tessa, I would say
this that I believe that theantidote to uncertainty is
(04:07):
flexibility, and here's how Iwould like to think about
flexibility is that, for themost part, we tend, as humans,
to think of the world, as'tthink about it that way.
I think we have to think aboutit in a way that's much more
accurate, which is a both andworld, that it's shades of gray,
(04:28):
that our leaders.
I'll give you a quick exampleand then I'll shut up.
Are our leaders responsible forreaching valuable outcomes?
Yes, are leaders responsiblefor taking care of the folks
that are reaching those outcomes?
Yes.
And some would say I have tochoose between outcomes and
others, and I would say thatrather, we have to look to
figure out how do we manage thetension between both outcomes
(04:51):
and others, managing the tensionbetween them, understanding the
tension and then moving in thedirection that best serves the
current situation, rather thangoing to the end of the end-ish
of that spectrum that we're mostcomfortable with, that we most
like, that we've had successwith, or that our style says we
(05:11):
should be on.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
So I have a specific question about uncertainty and
just to give you a little bit ofbackground, I started working
on Wall Street when I was in mylate teens, early 20s, and I was
merged 12 times.
It was late 80s, a lot ofmergers, and the same thing
always happened that themanagement never told you
anything.
My friends at other firms wastelling me that I'm going out of
(05:32):
business or I'm being bought bysomebody.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
But you weren't here at the office, you were here in
the bar.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Right and I thought well, someone's evolved and
gotten past that.
I have some friends at Nissanwith this merger and I said so
how is it going there?
And they go.
Well, we don't know.
We read stuff in the news,that's where we get our
information from, and we havethis massive gossip mill.
That's really nasty.
It really causes tons ofproblems.
(06:00):
So, with the uncertainty ofthat, when there is possibly a
merger going on or the leaderisn't really sure where we're
going to go, and when sayingnothing doesn't work, what
should they be doing when theydon't know what the future looks
like?
Speaker 4 (06:13):
So this idea that I just was sharing a second ago is
what I would call a flexor.
There's two ends and to flexsomewhere in between.
And so, michael, that getsright at one of the flexors I
talk about in the book, which isthe flexor of withhold and
share.
And there's a time to withhold.
There's a time when sharing youdon't really have enough
information or any information.
Yet I think everyone recognizesthat there are sometimes there
(06:35):
are things we can't share or itwouldn't be ethical to share.
But what you're describing andnot just the Nissan example, but
all of those examples, the 12that you were in is a situation
where they were withholdingbecause here's what I have found
Leaders generally arewithholding for one of a.
I have found Leaders generallyare withholding for one of a
couple of reasons.
There's lots of possiblereasons, of course, but I think
the two most common are numberone is well, I'll withhold it
(06:57):
because then I've got some power, and that's, of course, the one
that everyone goes to.
But I think the other one is Idon't want to share until I have
everything, because I'm afraidif I don't have everything.
First of all, we all gotpromoted to our levels of
leadership because we were goodat stuff and we had answers to
stuff.
And so which gets at anotherflexor, which is best or good,
(07:19):
right, like I have to have thebest answer.
So I'm going to wait until Ican tell people everything.
But while we're waiting to tellpeople everything, people are
making it all up, like you said,michael, and then the problem
is the rumors become real intheir head.
So even if the rumor or thegossip is false, when I now have
(07:40):
decided I'm going to share it,my communication job is harder,
because now I have to dispelwhat people have come to believe
to be true because they'veheard it 607 times, and so our
job actually gets harder at thatpoint.
So you're really getting atthis idea of how much should I
share.
I would say, generally speaking, if the rumors are starting to
build, I've got to share what Ican share and say I don't know
(08:00):
everything, but I know something.
Here's what I do.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
If I could follow up with that, one specific example.
I worked at LF Rothschildduring the crash of 87.
And I was in the office whereour managing director was the
big boss and there were rumorsthat we had gone out of business
that day and he took a WallStreet Journal article.
He called everyone made a bigbig, all the brokers are there.
He takes the Wall StreetJournal article and says this is
what I think of this articlethat we're going bankrupt.
(08:24):
He crumbles it up and he throwsit out.
And what I had noticed when Iwas going back to not my office
I was a cold caller, I was verylow level, but I noticed all the
really big brokers had outsideoffices.
They were empty, they'd left.
And I'm curious what you thinkthe impact is on trust Because,
as like a 21-year-old kid, I waslike he just lied to me because
(08:45):
the rich people, the smart ones, already left.
He knows what's happening and Ifelt like I had been lied to.
And I'm curious the impact oftrust with the withholding or
you know, not sharing.
You know what you do know.
What do you think of that?
Speaker 4 (08:59):
I think you have to share what you know when you
know it, and that's what youneed to tell people Now.
If that's a lie, then don't dothat.
Like, my advice is tell peoplewhat you can tell them when you
can tell them and say that'swhat you're going to do, and
when you know more, you'll sharemore.
But if you're not willing to dothat, don't say that either,
because that's the same gets usback to the same problem,
michael, and so I'm guessing theend of that story because I'm
(09:20):
sitting here.
The end of the story is exactlyright that he did lie when he
crumpled up the newspaper.
Is that correct?
I believe he did.
(09:43):
Yeah, because I becameOppenheimer the next day.
With ourselves, we have to behonest with our teams and that
doesn't necessarily mean we haveto share everything we know all
the time, but it does mean thatwe should think about when
should and what should we share,and we should do that not from
what makes us comfortable orwhat we were taught we should do
, or even perhaps, what thecrisis communication people told
(10:07):
us we should do.
But what do I see in the facesof my team?
What do I see in the actualexcuse me context of the
situation.
And then flexing means to say,in this moment, what do I think
is the result?
I think is the decision or theresponse that will get us the
(10:28):
best, long-term and short-termresult.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, that's so good, kevin.
I really appreciate the bothand and, the shades of gray and
thinking about in this moment.
The thing that's hard aboutthat is being in the moment and
decide.
There's so much judgment,there's so much kind of you have
to call on lots of differentpast experiences, the current
(10:53):
situation, to kind of try tomake the right call.
And so what if you do?
You have some good examples ofleaders who were able to figure
out how to be in that shade ofgray, those shades of gray, or
do the both, and to make us feela little bit more positive.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
So first of all, you know this is, this is the happy
at work podcast, or do the bothand to make us feel a little bit
more positive, what's thepossibility?
So, first of all, you know,this is the Happy at Work
podcast, so there's no reason wecan't be happy about this,
because here's the reality.
The world is complex, that'snot changing.
Being a leader is complex,that's not changing.
And if there's going to beuncertainty, our goal here isn't
to dispel, ignore, plow throughthe uncertainty, but rather to
(11:34):
recognize it and look at itaccurately.
And so I think that that's areally critical thing.
And I think, michael, to yourpoint earlier.
You know, and I certainly don'tknow the man you were talking
about or any of the other 12, 11other folks, right, and so I'm
not really casting dispersions,but what I am saying is that we
(11:54):
have to become number one.
The first thing that and so I'mreally not quite answering your
question, laura, because I'mgoing to do it slightly
differently the first thing thatwe must do is we must have
intention that says if thesituation, let's do it this way.
All of us have had thissituation as a leader, where
(12:15):
someone has come to us with aquestion or a problem, or we're
considering an action to takeand we stop and say, well, it
depends, what we should dodepends what, does ask yourself
well, what does it depend on?
What are the possible thingsthat it could depend on?
And uncertainty says you can'tknow which one of these is going
to be.
It's what I call plausiblecause analysis.
So what are the plausiblethings that it could be here?
(12:37):
This doesn't make us morelikely to get it right.
What it gets us to is helpingus see the options, because now,
well, it could be any one ofthese six things.
So what action could I take?
That would best address atleast some of those which might
not be the thing that we wouldnormally do first.
So I'll give you another sortof maybe not a leader, but lots
(12:58):
of leaders.
Again, going back to this, fiveyears ago, we all had to go home
, right?
I mean, if you were doing somekind of work, some kinds of work
, you still went to your job,but many people overnight were
now working, and I think that,in retrospect, while that was
painful, that all went prettywell.
But it's what came after.
That is really fascinating tome, because first of all, we had
(13:22):
clients that you know.
This was like St Patrick's Day,right.
So we had clients announcinghey, we'll be back in the office
in two weeks, hey, we'll beback in the office Memorial Day
after Memorial Day, we'll beback after the 4th of July,
labor Day, like this, like theyjust kept doing this and because
they kept thinking and hopingwe could take it back to where
it was.
And that's not being flexible,that's just being hopeful
Because was.
And that's not being flexible,that's just being hopeful
(13:42):
Because every day that passed,our viewpoint, our experience
and the world was continuing tochange.
So now fast forward three, four,five years and people want to
bring people back to the office,which I have no problem with if
it's appropriate.
But we tried to bring peopleback in an inflexible way by
creating a new policy that saysnow we're back in the office, as
if to think that nothing in theworld changed and all we were
(14:03):
doing is flipping a switch backto the office.
And everyone that tried to dothat ended up with all of these
unintended consequences.
Right, that's because thecontext of this situation was
not clear.
The context of this situationwas complex, and in a complex
situation we can't even know allthe things we don't know.
Maybe looking at it later andlooking back at it with 20-20
hindsight, we can, but, man, wecan't know it up front.
(14:25):
So the leaders that are havingsuccess here are willing to
pause their autopilot.
Be intentional about that.
Look at the situation, considerthe context, what does it
depend on?
And then make new choices whichmay or may not be the one they
were most used to comfortablewith.
Or is it a natural experience?
Speaker 5 (14:44):
So I have a question for you, kevin, because in the
work that I've done, workingwith clients, I agree with so
much of really everything thatyou've said.
I was going to say well, whatdidn't you disagree with?
Oh, everything that you saidabout flexible leadership,
especially at that leadershiplevel.
However, oftentimes in changemanagement, what we end up
seeing is this kind of frozenmiddle of the organization,
(15:08):
because, while the leaders mightbe trying to apply this
flexible leadership typecompetencies and skills, it's
not permeating into the cultureand creating an agile
organization, and many middlemanagers don't have the kind of
access to the tools and skillsthat the upper top management
(15:30):
would have.
And so, when you think about it, not just at the top leadership
level, but also on a culturallevel, what can organizations do
so that they can create a veryflexible organization, not just
the leadership at the top?
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Well, first of all, I'm about as optimistic of a
person as I know and I would sayI'm not so sure I agree with
everything you said in that I'mnot sure that all senior leaders
are all that executive leadersare all that flexible.
I mean, I do follow your point,I do understand, but I just want
to say it isn't only the middlewhere the challenges might lie.
(16:05):
That's all I'm really saying,and yet I can still go to your
point.
Here's the one thing that I'velearned about change management
over the years, and that is thatand I think it applies to this
conversation we really, wereally want to focus on the
change and we want to say here'swhat needs to change and here's
(16:27):
why we need to change it.
And we're pretty good, at leastat some level, of communicating
the change.
We're pretty decent at thatgenerally speaking, and we've
generally figured out we need totalk about the why we need to
do all that and like that's.
I'm not.
I'm not glossing over thatbecause it's not important.
I'm glossing over that becauseI don't think there's anything
new I need to say there.
Here's there are two things thatI think we need to say.
Number one is telling people.
Informing people about thechange isn't enough.
We need to have conversationabout the change, and what
(16:49):
happens is we tell people, Itell senior leaders all the time
you cannot create the perfectPowerPoint deck for your change.
It's not possible.
Why?
Because there's always anemotional component to change
and we're not going to deal withthat until we have conversation
about it and we let people talkabout it, and we don't want to
talk about it because we'reafraid they won't agree with us.
And that's not even the point.
The point is we just need to.
All of us have had the timewhere, if someone just let us
(17:11):
talk something out, we may notlove it, but we figure it out
and we're not giving people thechance to do that.
That's number one.
And the second thing I would sayis this that we are so focused
on what's changing that we don'tremind people about what's not
changing.
And it's almost always morethat staying the same than is
changing.
But when we say it's, it feelslike everything's changing.
When the reality is the stuffthat's changing super important,
(17:31):
it's not all changing.
So I co-wrote a book called theLong Distance Leader.
That came out back when Coronawas still beer, you know, like
more than five years ago.
And one of the things we saidin that book and it certainly
remained in the second editionthat came out last year is that
rule number one think leadershipfirst, location second, Not
everything's changing.
The stuff that's changingmatters a lot.
(17:52):
Don't ignore it, don't downplayit, be clear about it.
But not everything's changing.
And so if we think thateverything in our world is
changing, we become even moreunsettled than the world needs
us to be, and so I think thoseare two things, tessa, that I
would suggest, and that firstone is so important.
We need to have conversationsabout change, and so many
leaders are afraid to have itbecause they don't think it's
(18:13):
expedient or they're afraid whatpeople are going to say.
People don't need your answers,they need your ears.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
I love that.
People are funny.
They just don't like change,even if it's good change.
They can be uncomfortable withthat.
But I wanted to ask you aquestion about the coercive
leadership style, or themicromanager.
So for the micromanager that'slistening to the podcast now,
what would you say to them toencourage them to consider the
(18:41):
benefits of being a differentkind of leader besides a
micromanager?
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Do micromanagers know they're micromanagers?
Do they have thatself-awareness?
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
I think you're the best and you're right.
But anyhow, if you think thatyou're the best and you're right
, you might be a micromanager.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
I'm channeling my energy of Foxworthy here, so
here's what I want to say aboutthis.
Michael, it's a really goodquestion and I wish we had more
time than I know we have.
I'll say this that even theterm micromanager begs the
question of flexibility.
Because here's the thing youcould have two people that
report to you.
One of them thinks you'reawesome and doing a fabulous job
of coaching them and givingthem feedback and all that stuff
(19:16):
, and the other one, who you aretrying to and an outside video
camera, would say you'retreating exactly the same.
The other person thinks you'remicromanaging them.
So micromanagement isn't onlysomething that we're doing.
It's the perception that iscaused in the other person that
says, well, that's not what Ineed or that is what I need.
It could be exactly the samething.
Two people need differentthings.
Now we have some people thatare doing it to pretty much
(19:37):
everybody, and everyone wouldpretty much agree on the outside
, and they may be blissfullyunaware.
That's a whole nother thing.
But what I would say is, ifyou've ever heard that about
yourself, or even ever wonderedthat about yourself, the first
thing to do is to ask yourselfwhy is that?
What's in that for me to dothat, and how do I rebalance in
the time we have?
(19:57):
How do we rebalance outcomesand others, because you're
probably leaning too far intooutcomes.
We've got to do it this way.
It's got to be done this way.
It's got to be done right.
But the biggest problem withmicromanagers, at the end of the
day, is that their expectationis that you do it exactly the
way I do it, and so they're veryclear about the what
expectation, but they're notvery clear about the how
expectation.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
What's interesting, real quick, about that
(20:45):
no-transcript, and it reallycomes down to them feeling like
they don't have a voice at workbecause when they come into
their job, their boss is likethis is how you do the task,
this is how you do the job.
Just do it my way, versus, justby asking the question how
would you approach this work?
What we found was that theseemployees have 40% more skills
(21:06):
than the company even knowsabout, because they're not ever
able to speak up or reveal, youknow, the full breadth of the
technology, skills andeverything that they have that
they bring to the table and thejob, because they're kind of
always being instructed on whatto do rather than having that
conversation with them.
So I think you know what youjust said really resonates, and
(21:28):
I think we're seeing that a lotwith the multi-generations in
the workplace.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
First time in history that four generations are in
the workplace together.
And yeah, that createscomplexity, right there, without
question.
And yeah, that createscomplexity, right there, without
question.
I think we can overplay thegenerational stuff, because I
think anytime we start to labelgroups, that's dangerous.
And yet there's certainly truthin there, tessa, without
(21:54):
question.
The other thing that I alwayssay is people like well, this
group says they want to havemore purpose at work.
The only thing that's differentis everybody else wanted it too
.
It's just people with the colorhair of mine never thought they
were supposed to be able to askfor it.
That's the only.
The human need is not different.
The human need is not different.
It's just that one group ofpeople has figured out that they
could, and good for them, thatthey ought to ask about it
(22:15):
Completely.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
I hear you, I agree.
So, kevin, our time is alreadyup.
Do you want to leave us, maybewith a word, some words of
advice around flexibleleadership, people who maybe are
listening and thinking what'ssomething I could do to just be
a little bit more flexible.
You mean other than to go buy abook and go to
KevinHartinBraycom?
Speaker 4 (22:34):
slash flexible.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Good job.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
And really you ought to buy two, because if you only
buy one, you're learning alone,but if you buy two you have
someone that walks along withyou.
But no, let me say this If theway that you have led, if that's
not changing, and the world ischanging, do you believe, what
are the odds that the way theworld is changing is conspiring
to come closer to your approach?
(22:56):
Not very likely.
And so to me, if you're justgoing to think about placing a
bet, I think you'd be better toplace a bet on being flexible.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Awesome, well said Well.
Kevin, thank you so much forjoining us today.
I appreciate your really reallygreat insights.
Thanks so much for being here.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
This was wonderful, super fun.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Awesome.
Thanks so much, Kevin.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
We hope you've enjoyed this episode.
If you'd like to hear futureepisodes, be sure to subscribe
to the Happy at Work podcast andleave us a review with your
thoughts.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Are you interested in speaking on a future episode or
want to collaborate with us?
Let us know.
You can send us an email atadmin at happyatworkpodcastcom
and lastly, follow us onLinkedIn or Twitter for even
more happiness.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
See you soon.
Welcome back for another episode of the Happy at
Work podcast with Laura Tessaand Michael.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Each week we have thoughtful conversations with
leaders, founders and authorsabout happiness at work.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation.
Enjoy the show.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Welcome to the Happy at Work podcast.
Today we're so excited to haveKevin Eikenberry here with us.
Kevin, thank you so much forjoining us.
You're a podcaster, aconsultant, a speaker and an
author of multiple books.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
I'm glad to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Absolutely so.
Let's start by you telling usabout yourself.
Tell us about you and yourcareer journey.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
You don't want to start when I was born, right?
We want to go a little laterthan that.
So it is important, it is Well,so that'll be fine and that'll
be the only thing we'll do.
I think it's important in thecontext that I'm sure why you're
asking the question to know alittle bit about where I come
from and where I come from as afarm in Michigan, and that
(01:28):
experience both the farmexperience but also the business
experience being a part of afamily, two family businesses,
agriculture related I have ahuge impact on my outlook, on my
perspective, and certainly wasthe starting point for my career
.
So I had the chance to bearound and watch leaders and
really grew up with my parentsbecause they're only 20 years
older than me, so I had thechance to really spend time with
(01:48):
my dad in the business and withother customers, vendors, et
cetera, from a young age, and soI think that has had a huge
impact on my life and my career.
I went to school at PurdueUniversity.
I'm a proud Boilermaker.
I went to work in, I went towork in corporate America for
about eight years in sales andmarketing and found my way into
training and development, andthen about 31 and a half or so
(02:09):
years ago, I left there to startthe company that is now called
the Kevin Eikenberry Group, andwhen I started at Chevron, I
fully expected that I eventuallywould work for myself, I'd have
my own company, but I didn'tnecessarily know it would be
this.
It was during my time therethat I figured out that I was
put on the planet to do trainingand development work.
And there fast forward 31 years, a few months to right now on
(02:32):
this podcast.
Speaker 5 (02:32):
Fantastic, kevin.
So you have written a bookrecently called Flexible
Leadership Navigate Uncertaintyand Lead with Confidence, and I
can't think of a more perfecttitle, considering the world is
crazy right now, and if there'sanything more true, it's the
fact that the world is quiteuncertain in this moment.
(02:53):
Tell us about your book.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
What does it mean to be a flexible leader, and we'd
love to learn more about thatWell, yeah, I mean, I'm so glad
that I had the foresight to putthe word uncertainty in the
subtitle and because I thinkthat you know, I think I heard
someone say a while back that,well, things are more uncertain
now than ever, and I'm like Idon't think any of us can now,
as we're doing this, recordingto the start of the pandemic,
(03:26):
like literally, depending onwhere you are in the world,
today is five years, you knowagain as we're recording this.
So, but not just then, buteverything around us, there is
uncertainty in large quantities,and I think that, as leaders,
we have a responsibility tonavigate it.
We have an opportunity tonavigate it.
We have an opportunity tonavigate it, and our ability to
(03:46):
do that has a huge ripple impacton our teams and our
organizations and, in fact, howthat all then plays out in the
rest of the world.
So I'm super pleased that Ithink the book can make an
impact in this time.
As it relates to your questionspecifically, tessa, I would say
this that I believe that theantidote to uncertainty is
(04:07):
flexibility, and here's how Iwould like to think about
flexibility is that, for themost part, we tend, as humans,
to think of the world, as'tthink about it that way.
I think we have to think aboutit in a way that's much more
accurate, which is a both andworld, that it's shades of gray,
(04:28):
that our leaders.
I'll give you a quick exampleand then I'll shut up.
Are our leaders responsible forreaching valuable outcomes?
Yes, are leaders responsiblefor taking care of the folks
that are reaching those outcomes?
Yes.
And some would say I have tochoose between outcomes and
others, and I would say thatrather, we have to look to
figure out how do we manage thetension between both outcomes
(04:51):
and others, managing the tensionbetween them, understanding the
tension and then moving in thedirection that best serves the
current situation, rather thangoing to the end of the end-ish
of that spectrum that we're mostcomfortable with, that we most
like, that we've had successwith, or that our style says we
(05:11):
should be on.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
So I have a specific question about uncertainty and
just to give you a little bit ofbackground, I started working
on Wall Street when I was in mylate teens, early 20s, and I was
merged 12 times.
It was late 80s, a lot ofmergers, and the same thing
always happened that themanagement never told you
anything.
My friends at other firms wastelling me that I'm going out of
(05:32):
business or I'm being bought bysomebody.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
But you weren't here at the office, you were here in
the bar.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Right and I thought well, someone's evolved and
gotten past that.
I have some friends at Nissanwith this merger and I said so
how is it going there?
And they go.
Well, we don't know.
We read stuff in the news,that's where we get our
information from, and we havethis massive gossip mill.
That's really nasty.
It really causes tons ofproblems.
(06:00):
So, with the uncertainty ofthat, when there is possibly a
merger going on or the leaderisn't really sure where we're
going to go, and when sayingnothing doesn't work, what
should they be doing when theydon't know what the future looks
like?
Speaker 4 (06:13):
So this idea that I just was sharing a second ago is
what I would call a flexor.
There's two ends and to flexsomewhere in between.
And so, michael, that getsright at one of the flexors I
talk about in the book, which isthe flexor of withhold and
share.
And there's a time to withhold.
There's a time when sharing youdon't really have enough
information or any information.
Yet I think everyone recognizesthat there are sometimes there
(06:35):
are things we can't share or itwouldn't be ethical to share.
But what you're describing andnot just the Nissan example, but
all of those examples, the 12that you were in is a situation
where they were withholdingbecause here's what I have found
Leaders generally arewithholding for one of a.
I have found Leaders generallyare withholding for one of a
couple of reasons.
There's lots of possiblereasons, of course, but I think
the two most common are numberone is well, I'll withhold it
(06:57):
because then I've got some power, and that's, of course, the one
that everyone goes to.
But I think the other one is Idon't want to share until I have
everything, because I'm afraidif I don't have everything.
First of all, we all gotpromoted to our levels of
leadership because we were goodat stuff and we had answers to
stuff.
And so which gets at anotherflexor, which is best or good,
(07:19):
right, like I have to have thebest answer.
So I'm going to wait until Ican tell people everything.
But while we're waiting to tellpeople everything, people are
making it all up, like you said,michael, and then the problem
is the rumors become real intheir head.
So even if the rumor or thegossip is false, when I now have
(07:40):
decided I'm going to share it,my communication job is harder,
because now I have to dispelwhat people have come to believe
to be true because they'veheard it 607 times, and so our
job actually gets harder at thatpoint.
So you're really getting atthis idea of how much should I
share.
I would say, generally speaking, if the rumors are starting to
build, I've got to share what Ican share and say I don't know
(08:00):
everything, but I know something.
Here's what I do.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
If I could follow up with that, one specific example.
I worked at LF Rothschildduring the crash of 87.
And I was in the office whereour managing director was the
big boss and there were rumorsthat we had gone out of business
that day and he took a WallStreet Journal article.
He called everyone made a bigbig, all the brokers are there.
He takes the Wall StreetJournal article and says this is
what I think of this articlethat we're going bankrupt.
(08:24):
He crumbles it up and he throwsit out.
And what I had noticed when Iwas going back to not my office
I was a cold caller, I was verylow level, but I noticed all the
really big brokers had outsideoffices.
They were empty, they'd left.
And I'm curious what you thinkthe impact is on trust Because,
as like a 21-year-old kid, I waslike he just lied to me because
(08:45):
the rich people, the smart ones, already left.
He knows what's happening and Ifelt like I had been lied to.
And I'm curious the impact oftrust with the withholding or
you know, not sharing.
You know what you do know.
What do you think of that?
Speaker 4 (08:59):
I think you have to share what you know when you
know it, and that's what youneed to tell people Now.
If that's a lie, then don't dothat.
Like, my advice is tell peoplewhat you can tell them when you
can tell them and say that'swhat you're going to do, and
when you know more, you'll sharemore.
But if you're not willing to dothat, don't say that either,
because that's the same gets usback to the same problem,
michael, and so I'm guessing theend of that story because I'm
(09:20):
sitting here.
The end of the story is exactlyright that he did lie when he
crumpled up the newspaper.
Is that correct?
I believe he did.
(09:43):
Yeah, because I becameOppenheimer the next day.
With ourselves, we have to behonest with our teams and that
doesn't necessarily mean we haveto share everything we know all
the time, but it does mean thatwe should think about when
should and what should we share,and we should do that not from
what makes us comfortable orwhat we were taught we should do
, or even perhaps, what thecrisis communication people told
(10:07):
us we should do.
But what do I see in the facesof my team?
What do I see in the actualexcuse me context of the
situation.
And then flexing means to say,in this moment, what do I think
is the result?
I think is the decision or theresponse that will get us the
(10:28):
best, long-term and short-termresult.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, that's so good, kevin.
I really appreciate the bothand and, the shades of gray and
thinking about in this moment.
The thing that's hard aboutthat is being in the moment and
decide.
There's so much judgment,there's so much kind of you have
to call on lots of differentpast experiences, the current
(10:53):
situation, to kind of try tomake the right call.
And so what if you do?
You have some good examples ofleaders who were able to figure
out how to be in that shade ofgray, those shades of gray, or
do the both, and to make us feela little bit more positive.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
So first of all, you know this is, this is the happy
at work podcast, or do the bothand to make us feel a little bit
more positive, what's thepossibility?
So, first of all, you know,this is the Happy at Work
podcast, so there's no reason wecan't be happy about this,
because here's the reality.
The world is complex, that'snot changing.
Being a leader is complex,that's not changing.
And if there's going to beuncertainty, our goal here isn't
to dispel, ignore, plow throughthe uncertainty, but rather to
(11:34):
recognize it and look at itaccurately.
And so I think that that's areally critical thing.
And I think, michael, to yourpoint earlier.
You know, and I certainly don'tknow the man you were talking
about or any of the other 12, 11other folks, right, and so I'm
not really casting dispersions,but what I am saying is that we
(11:54):
have to become number one.
The first thing that and so I'mreally not quite answering your
question, laura, because I'mgoing to do it slightly
differently the first thing thatwe must do is we must have
intention that says if thesituation, let's do it this way.
All of us have had thissituation as a leader, where
(12:15):
someone has come to us with aquestion or a problem, or we're
considering an action to takeand we stop and say, well, it
depends, what we should dodepends what, does ask yourself
well, what does it depend on?
What are the possible thingsthat it could depend on?
And uncertainty says you can'tknow which one of these is going
to be.
It's what I call plausiblecause analysis.
So what are the plausiblethings that it could be here?
(12:37):
This doesn't make us morelikely to get it right.
What it gets us to is helpingus see the options, because now,
well, it could be any one ofthese six things.
So what action could I take?
That would best address atleast some of those which might
not be the thing that we wouldnormally do first.
So I'll give you another sortof maybe not a leader, but lots
(12:58):
of leaders.
Again, going back to this, fiveyears ago, we all had to go home
, right?
I mean, if you were doing somekind of work, some kinds of work
, you still went to your job,but many people overnight were
now working, and I think that,in retrospect, while that was
painful, that all went prettywell.
But it's what came after.
That is really fascinating tome, because first of all, we had
(13:22):
clients that you know.
This was like St Patrick's Day,right.
So we had clients announcinghey, we'll be back in the office
in two weeks, hey, we'll beback in the office Memorial Day
after Memorial Day, we'll beback after the 4th of July,
labor Day, like this, like theyjust kept doing this and because
they kept thinking and hopingwe could take it back to where
it was.
And that's not being flexible,that's just being hopeful
Because was.
And that's not being flexible,that's just being hopeful
(13:42):
Because every day that passed,our viewpoint, our experience
and the world was continuing tochange.
So now fast forward three, four,five years and people want to
bring people back to the office,which I have no problem with if
it's appropriate.
But we tried to bring peopleback in an inflexible way by
creating a new policy that saysnow we're back in the office, as
if to think that nothing in theworld changed and all we were
(14:03):
doing is flipping a switch backto the office.
And everyone that tried to dothat ended up with all of these
unintended consequences.
Right, that's because thecontext of this situation was
not clear.
The context of this situationwas complex, and in a complex
situation we can't even know allthe things we don't know.
Maybe looking at it later andlooking back at it with 20-20
hindsight, we can, but, man, wecan't know it up front.
(14:25):
So the leaders that are havingsuccess here are willing to
pause their autopilot.
Be intentional about that.
Look at the situation, considerthe context, what does it
depend on?
And then make new choices whichmay or may not be the one they
were most used to comfortablewith.
Or is it a natural experience?
Speaker 5 (14:44):
So I have a question for you, kevin, because in the
work that I've done, workingwith clients, I agree with so
much of really everything thatyou've said.
I was going to say well, whatdidn't you disagree with?
Oh, everything that you saidabout flexible leadership,
especially at that leadershiplevel.
However, oftentimes in changemanagement, what we end up
seeing is this kind of frozenmiddle of the organization,
(15:08):
because, while the leaders mightbe trying to apply this
flexible leadership typecompetencies and skills, it's
not permeating into the cultureand creating an agile
organization, and many middlemanagers don't have the kind of
access to the tools and skillsthat the upper top management
(15:30):
would have.
And so, when you think about it, not just at the top leadership
level, but also on a culturallevel, what can organizations do
so that they can create a veryflexible organization, not just
the leadership at the top?
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Well, first of all, I'm about as optimistic of a
person as I know and I would sayI'm not so sure I agree with
everything you said in that I'mnot sure that all senior leaders
are all that executive leadersare all that flexible.
I mean, I do follow your point,I do understand, but I just want
to say it isn't only the middlewhere the challenges might lie.
(16:05):
That's all I'm really saying,and yet I can still go to your
point.
Here's the one thing that I'velearned about change management
over the years, and that is thatand I think it applies to this
conversation we really, wereally want to focus on the
change and we want to say here'swhat needs to change and here's
(16:27):
why we need to change it.
And we're pretty good, at leastat some level, of communicating
the change.
We're pretty decent at thatgenerally speaking, and we've
generally figured out we need totalk about the why we need to
do all that and like that's.
I'm not.
I'm not glossing over thatbecause it's not important.
I'm glossing over that becauseI don't think there's anything
new I need to say there.
Here's there are two things thatI think we need to say.
Number one is telling people.
Informing people about thechange isn't enough.
We need to have conversationabout the change, and what
(16:49):
happens is we tell people, Itell senior leaders all the time
you cannot create the perfectPowerPoint deck for your change.
It's not possible.
Why?
Because there's always anemotional component to change
and we're not going to deal withthat until we have conversation
about it and we let people talkabout it, and we don't want to
talk about it because we'reafraid they won't agree with us.
And that's not even the point.
The point is we just need to.
All of us have had the timewhere, if someone just let us
(17:11):
talk something out, we may notlove it, but we figure it out
and we're not giving people thechance to do that.
That's number one.
And the second thing I would sayis this that we are so focused
on what's changing that we don'tremind people about what's not
changing.
And it's almost always morethat staying the same than is
changing.
But when we say it's, it feelslike everything's changing.
When the reality is the stuffthat's changing super important,
(17:31):
it's not all changing.
So I co-wrote a book called theLong Distance Leader.
That came out back when Coronawas still beer, you know, like
more than five years ago.
And one of the things we saidin that book and it certainly
remained in the second editionthat came out last year is that
rule number one think leadershipfirst, location second, Not
everything's changing.
The stuff that's changingmatters a lot.
(17:52):
Don't ignore it, don't downplayit, be clear about it.
But not everything's changing.
And so if we think thateverything in our world is
changing, we become even moreunsettled than the world needs
us to be, and so I think thoseare two things, tessa, that I
would suggest, and that firstone is so important.
We need to have conversationsabout change, and so many
leaders are afraid to have itbecause they don't think it's
(18:13):
expedient or they're afraid whatpeople are going to say.
People don't need your answers,they need your ears.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
I love that.
People are funny.
They just don't like change,even if it's good change.
They can be uncomfortable withthat.
But I wanted to ask you aquestion about the coercive
leadership style, or themicromanager.
So for the micromanager that'slistening to the podcast now,
what would you say to them toencourage them to consider the
(18:41):
benefits of being a differentkind of leader besides a
micromanager?
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Do micromanagers know they're micromanagers?
Do they have thatself-awareness?
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
I think you're the best and you're right.
But anyhow, if you think thatyou're the best and you're right
, you might be a micromanager.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
I'm channeling my energy of Foxworthy here, so
here's what I want to say aboutthis.
Michael, it's a really goodquestion and I wish we had more
time than I know we have.
I'll say this that even theterm micromanager begs the
question of flexibility.
Because here's the thing youcould have two people that
report to you.
One of them thinks you'reawesome and doing a fabulous job
of coaching them and givingthem feedback and all that stuff
(19:16):
, and the other one, who you aretrying to and an outside video
camera, would say you'retreating exactly the same.
The other person thinks you'remicromanaging them.
So micromanagement isn't onlysomething that we're doing.
It's the perception that iscaused in the other person that
says, well, that's not what Ineed or that is what I need.
It could be exactly the samething.
Two people need differentthings.
Now we have some people thatare doing it to pretty much
(19:37):
everybody, and everyone wouldpretty much agree on the outside
, and they may be blissfullyunaware.
That's a whole nother thing.
But what I would say is, ifyou've ever heard that about
yourself, or even ever wonderedthat about yourself, the first
thing to do is to ask yourselfwhy is that?
What's in that for me to dothat, and how do I rebalance in
the time we have?
(19:57):
How do we rebalance outcomesand others, because you're
probably leaning too far intooutcomes.
We've got to do it this way.
It's got to be done this way.
It's got to be done right.
But the biggest problem withmicromanagers, at the end of the
day, is that their expectationis that you do it exactly the
way I do it, and so they're veryclear about the what
expectation, but they're notvery clear about the how
expectation.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
What's interesting, real quick, about that
(20:45):
no-transcript, and it reallycomes down to them feeling like
they don't have a voice at workbecause when they come into
their job, their boss is likethis is how you do the task,
this is how you do the job.
Just do it my way, versus, justby asking the question how
would you approach this work?
What we found was that theseemployees have 40% more skills
(21:06):
than the company even knowsabout, because they're not ever
able to speak up or reveal, youknow, the full breadth of the
technology, skills andeverything that they have that
they bring to the table and thejob, because they're kind of
always being instructed on whatto do rather than having that
conversation with them.
So I think you know what youjust said really resonates, and
(21:28):
I think we're seeing that a lotwith the multi-generations in
the workplace.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
First time in history that four generations are in
the workplace together.
And yeah, that createscomplexity, right there, without
question.
And yeah, that createscomplexity, right there, without
question.
I think we can overplay thegenerational stuff, because I
think anytime we start to labelgroups, that's dangerous.
And yet there's certainly truthin there, tessa, without
(21:54):
question.
The other thing that I alwayssay is people like well, this
group says they want to havemore purpose at work.
The only thing that's differentis everybody else wanted it too
.
It's just people with the colorhair of mine never thought they
were supposed to be able to askfor it.
That's the only.
The human need is not different.
The human need is not different.
It's just that one group ofpeople has figured out that they
could, and good for them, thatthey ought to ask about it
(22:15):
Completely.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
I hear you, I agree.
So, kevin, our time is alreadyup.
Do you want to leave us, maybewith a word, some words of
advice around flexibleleadership, people who maybe are
listening and thinking what'ssomething I could do to just be
a little bit more flexible.
You mean other than to go buy abook and go to
KevinHartinBraycom?
Speaker 4 (22:34):
slash flexible.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Good job.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
And really you ought to buy two, because if you only
buy one, you're learning alone,but if you buy two you have
someone that walks along withyou.
But no, let me say this If theway that you have led, if that's
not changing, and the world ischanging, do you believe, what
are the odds that the way theworld is changing is conspiring
to come closer to your approach?
(22:56):
Not very likely.
And so to me, if you're justgoing to think about placing a
bet, I think you'd be better toplace a bet on being flexible.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Awesome, well said Well.
Kevin, thank you so much forjoining us today.
I appreciate your really reallygreat insights.
Thanks so much for being here.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
This was wonderful, super fun.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Awesome.
Thanks so much, Kevin.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
We hope you've enjoyed this episode.
If you'd like to hear futureepisodes, be sure to subscribe
to the Happy at Work podcast andleave us a review with your
thoughts.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Are you interested in speaking on a future episode or
want to collaborate with us?
Let us know.
You can send us an email atadmin at happyatworkpodcastcom
and lastly, follow us onLinkedIn or Twitter for even
more happiness.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
See you soon.
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