June 24, 2025 • 30 mins
Jordana Cole shares her journey as a leadership development expert and how she's revolutionizing coaching through AI with her company ShiftWell.ai. She explains how this technology can democratize access to professional development by providing on-demand, personalized coaching to employees at all levels.
• AI coaching can reach employees who traditionally lack access to development resources, including hourly workers, non-English speakers, and those with busy schedules
• Traditional employee engagement surveys have shown little improvement over 20+ years because they address symptoms rather than root causes
• People's needs shift over time like fingerprints, requiring personalized development that evolves with them
• Human coaches and AI should work as complementary partners—AI providing scale, humans providing intuition
• Organizations should design AI implementations with employees rather than for them
• Environmental factors including workspace arrangements significantly impact performance but are often overlooked in engagement assessments
• Practical AI applications include drafting difficult communications, synthesizing data, and creating step-by-step action plans
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome back for another episode of the Happy at
Work podcast with Laura Tessaand Michael.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Each week we have thoughtful conversations with
leaders, founders and authorsabout happiness at work.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation.
Enjoy the show.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
Hi and welcome to the Happy at Work podcast.
We are so excited to have withus today Jordana Cole, who is
the co-founder of ShiftWellaiand the founder of Ignited, and
I can't wait to hear about thesetwo organizations.
Welcome, jordana.
Thank you so much.
Yes, it's great to have youhere.
(01:00):
So I'm going to ask you thequestion that we ask many of our
guests, which is can you tellus a little bit about yourself,
your career and where you aretoday?
Speaker 5 (01:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
So.
I'm kind of one of those peoplewho have had a windy career
path.
I've had a lot of roles, I'vebeen in a lot of organizations,
but through it all, a couple ofthings have been true Leadership
.
I've been leading teams sinceI'm 23 years old, fresh out of
college, no experiencewhatsoever Focusing on human
(01:31):
potential and well-being.
So I have a master's degree fromUPenn in applied positive
psychology and really thinkingabout how do we bring out the
best in people in a way thatcreates behavioral change that
doesn't just stick, it spreads.
So that's kind of my MO witheverything that I do.
I joke, I'm not a learningleader, I'm not a development
(01:53):
leader, I am a behaviorist.
So how do we change behaviors?
So, with Ignited, afterspending a decade leading
internal learning anddevelopment and leadership
development at a number ofdifferent corporations, I now,
on my own as a certified coach,as a facilitator, as a
consultant, help organizationswith leadership coaching,
leadership programming,leadership workshops and
(02:14):
learning and developmentstrategy.
And then what I'm reallyexcited about is the work that I
do with my co-founders onShiftWell.
So one of the things that Irealized as an L&D leader and as
an external consultant is it'sreally hard to scale yourself.
It's also really hard to scalethe cost of being able to
support your entire employeebase when you are a huge
(02:37):
organization and so much ofdevelopment focuses on either
executive leaders or frontlinemanagement or people who are in
performance improvement plans,and there's a whole crop of
employees that miss out.
Yet in order for us to be aseffective as possible, we need
everybody being able to do andbring their best every day.
So that's the problem that westarted thinking about at
(03:00):
ShiftWell and said, okay, well,how do we figure out what that
is?
How do we change the questionsthat people are being asked and
get to the root of what peopleneed?
And then how do we actuallyleverage AI at scale to
basically give people on-demandaccess to help them be at their
best, to enable leaders to bringout the best in their people
(03:21):
and to help the organizationmake decisions that will really
invest in the right things atthe right time best in their
people, and to help theorganization make decisions that
will really invest in the rightthings at the right time to
help their people do and feeltheir best every single day.
So that's what I'm about.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
I love the world that you're living in.
I've been teachingentrepreneurship for 15 years
and everyone has this that youreally distilled it down.
The same problem that so manyfounders have how do I scale
myself when there isn't thisunlimited amount of cash?
But now, we have AI.
What are you thinking?
(03:54):
How are you thinking you canuse it?
Speaker 5 (03:57):
Yeah.
So the way that we're planningon leveraging AI is a coach
primarily, and maybe anorganizational consultant as
well.
I really think about AI asbeing that coaching your pocket
and as a coach of myself, atfirst, that terrified me, right?
Because it's like, oh my gosh,am I putting myself out of
business?
Am I putting coaches out ofbusiness?
I truly believe there's a needfor both human coaching and an
(04:20):
opportunity and need for AIcoaching.
So AI endless patience, able tostore and process all kinds of
data and really good abouthelping you come up with
specific step-by-step plans.
And there are a lot of peoplewho still don't really
understand what coaching is andexpect coaching to be somebody
who's more of an advisor or likea personal trainer at the gym.
(04:44):
Want somebody who's there forthem when they need it.
If that happens like a personaltrainer at the gym, want
somebody who's there for themwhen they need it.
If that happens to be at two inthe morning because you are a
night owl, or if it's 6am whenyou're getting your kids ready
for school, that it's there ondemand in my pocket and
affordable for me and myorganization to pay for.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
I'm so fascinated by this topic no-transcript
(05:38):
positions, vice president typeroles I've never had a coach
myself, you know, so it's likeso exciting to think about how
this could be leveraged to givethis type of coaching
opportunity to lots of differentemployees across the hierarchy
of an organization.
So can you talk a little bitmore about your vision for how
(06:02):
this is democratizing coachingand how we can make coaching
more available and moreaccessible?
Speaker 5 (06:09):
Yeah, and I thank you for sharing that and I'm sorry
that you've never had theopportunity of that coach
investment.
You're so spot on aboutdemocratizing and it's
interesting that you bring upthat word and access, because
the early part of my career wasin higher ed and particularly
education technology, and Iworked for a number of years
with the organization that didthe technology behind the common
(06:31):
application, which is somethingthat existed to democratize
educational access to allstudents so that you could
submit one application and applyto all these skills.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
I have a senior in high school who just did this
process, so yes, I understand.
Speaker 5 (06:49):
Yeah.
So I think that's kind ofalways been in the back of my
mind is like how do we do thingslike that similar?
And over my years I've had theability to work with global
audiences and a lot of coachesare native to one or two
languages.
Most it's based on theirschedule, which may or may not
fit with the employee schedule,and I had about six years of
experience working withproduction slash manufacturing
(07:11):
staff and realized those staffthey're hourly based employees.
They can't take an hour and gointo a room and have a
one-on-one coaching session.
They don't have laptops, theydon't have privacy.
So how do we provide things tothem just in time?
And that's been like a bigfocus of mine.
What's the just in time need?
(07:32):
To get people what they needwhen they need it, and AI is the
tool that enables that tohappen.
So, whether it's app based orbrowser based, you can have a
phone, you can have a computer,you could be anywhere at any
time and have a five-minuteconversation and just get the
one thing that you need or notworry about offending it right,
(07:55):
it's there for you, it hasinfinite patience, it's on
demand and, especially in one ofthe things I think we're really
excited about with our productis there's no integration for so
many languages instantaneously.
So if you're a global workforcewhere you have employees who
speak Spanish as their primarylanguage, or Arabic or Mandarin,
(08:18):
whatever it might be, you canget them that coach support
immediately without having toscour the world to put together
a coach network and do all thispairing.
So, from a technologyperspective, that, I think, is
the way to democratize.
Now, I think where a lot ofpeople struggle with AIs is how
do I actually use it?
And it's also only as good asthe data you're giving it or the
(08:42):
level of kind of awareness youhave or the self-awareness.
So, with one of the things thatwe're doing is really focusing
on connecting our AI to a lot ofthe research and science of
what enables somebody to be attheir best, from a combination
of human performance, humanmotivation, well-being, human
engagement, distilling that tocore elements and enabling
(09:04):
individuals to take anassessment to identify their
unique blend of what they need,where they are in relation to
that right now.
And then the AI takes that dataand that's what it uses as a
starting point, while giving theindividual different avenues
that they can engage with it,whether it's to learn more about
themselves, whether it's tocreate a plan, whether it's to
(09:24):
get recommendations of thingsthat they can engage with it.
Whether it's to learn moreabout themselves.
Whether it's to create a plan,whether it's to get
recommendations of things thatthey could do or even role play,
how they have conversationslike this with their boss or
with their spouse about what itis that they actually need.
So, rather than beingcompletely open-ended and
relying on the person to be ableto be fluent in the language of
(09:44):
AI or technology, we're helpingto focus their path to what's
going to create meaningful,impactful behavioral change for
them that will lead to positiveresults for them in their
business.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
I love all this, and now I'm going to ask a question
on behalf of the executivecoaches that are listening now,
who are saying to themselvesthis is great, but what do I do
and how do we work together?
Speaker 5 (10:10):
Yes, yes, first off, I love you executive coaches.
I'm one of you executivecoaches.
I'm not putting you out of ajob, executive coaches so I tend
to think of like we need both.
There are some.
I don't know if either of youare familiar with Dr Cornelia
Walther, but she writes forPsychology Today a lot on the
topic of AI and human merging.
(10:33):
She has had two fantasticarticles in the last two weeks
actually get published.
One is on hybrid humanisticleadership and the other is
about psychological liberationthrough AI.
Yes, that's a mouthful, butultimately what she's getting at
is that we need a partnershipbetween humans and AI.
It's not about AI replacinghumans and that what AI is best
(10:56):
at is synthesizing largequantities of data, helping to
create those insights, reallyhelping us to understand what we
need from a wellbeingperspective, but not replacing
that human relationship,building that human innovation,
et cetera.
And I think that what itdoesn't replace that a human
coach brings to the table is acouple of things.
Ai doesn't notice what's notsaid.
(11:18):
It's very literal.
So, as a coach, there aremoments I literally had a
coaching conversation earliertoday where my client suddenly
got a grin on her face when wewere having a conversation,
which was a complete shift ofenergy and I could notice that I
could pause her and call thatout and we could talk through
that and what that meant in themoment that you can't do with AI
(11:39):
.
Ai doesn't have coach'sintuition where you get that
kind of deep, unexpectedquestion or insight, where
you're getting below the surfaceand really challenging the
thinking, and it's only as goodas its programming Right.
So it might anchor back topleasing you or how you're
training it.
So I can sometimes become whatyou want it to be rather than
what you need it to be, and Ithink that's where human coaches
(12:02):
still are.
No one can replace them on that.
So I think a human coach pairedwith this AI tool could be
really valuable in helping tocreate some of that below the
surface knowledge.
I also think in the lens Tessathat you brought up about
democratization.
I see, with medicine as anexample, there are now things
(12:23):
like concierge service ofdoctors where you get more
dedicated time.
You get a different fear ofcare if you pay for that
particular price point, but ifyou could only afford, you know
that copay, you have urgent careas an option that you can go to
or you have telemedicine thatyou can go to.
There's a market for both and Isee that being the place with
(12:45):
coaching to human.
Coaches have specialized a lotof times in the organizational
space, as you brought up at theexecutive level, or certain use
cases, and that's going tocontinue to be a need.
This is about democratizing.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
I love the metaphor of the medical system and really
thinking about because,honestly, executive coaching has
always been that gold standardthat you might think about.
That's reserved for a selectfew, just like concierge
medicine might be.
But the AI coaching really doesmake it more accessible the way
that urgent care centers andother types of access to
(13:20):
medicine has become moreaccessible over the past decade
or so.
So I really love thatcomparison.
I haven't heard that one beforeand I think it's really
effective.
But I'd love to ask you alittle bit more about the
assessment.
So, you think about?
There's a zillion assessmentsout there Gallup to Myers-Briggs
and so forth so do you thinkspecifically about the
(13:43):
assessment that you alldeveloped and how that actually
informs AI and informs the coach?
Is it more around learning anddevelopment?
Is it more around personalityand managing conflict?
I mean, like, what are youactually assessing for?
And then how is that informingthe coaching process?
Speaker 5 (14:03):
Yeah.
So really, what we're assessingfor is the root of human
motivation and performance.
So, look, I'm a fan ofassessments.
I've been a Gallup strengthscoach for over a decade.
I'm a huge fan ofStrengthsFinder Actually, my
co-founder was on the team thatbuilt the StrengthsFinder
assessment back in the day, sowe are all huge proponents of
(14:25):
that.
There are some limitations, soone of my challenges with a lot
of the assessments that are outthere are they're
personality-based, which meansthey're fixed, even though there
is research lately thatpersonality does shift a bit.
Part of the reason we're calledShiftWell is because we
recognize that people's needswhile we have core needs as
human beings, that they are asunique to us as our fingerprints
(14:47):
and that they shift over time.
That based on the environmentalfactors that we're in, based on
the different life changes thatwe have.
So it's not a fixed point andyou're done.
This is actually something thatyou should take multiple times
and multiple ways to see whatchanges, particularly when you
have significant life changes orthere's significant changes in
(15:09):
the world.
The other challenge that I seeI'm going to take engagement
assessments for a bit, becausethis is an area that we really
are looking to disrupt.
What's amazing to me is, if youlook at the Gallup State of the
Workplace report, engagement isalways somewhere between like
the 28 to 32% range.
No matter what else has changedin the world, even with COVID,
(15:30):
like it's just gone up and downa little bit In what other world
, in a business setting, wouldyou be doing the same thing for
20 plus years and getting 30% ofthe 100% returns that you
expect, and keep doing it?
Yet we keep doing this withengagement surveys.
We keep doing the same thingswe've done 20 years ago.
(15:51):
We haven't changed them at all.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
I have to ask you a question.
Speaker 5 (15:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Just to get clarification.
Speaker 5 (15:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
Do you fundamentally believe that engagement surveys
are broken?
Speaker 5 (16:01):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Okay, okay, so tell me more.
Speaker 5 (16:04):
Yeah, I fundamentally believe engagement surveys are
broken because I think they getat a symptom, not the root.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 5 (16:11):
Engagement is a half step to performance.
It's not something causes thatengagement, it's not some.
There's a need that's generallyfulfilled or unfulfilled.
That means that you are engagedor not engaged.
Now, some engagement surveys doa good job at getting at some
of those things likerelationship with your manager,
(16:32):
but they're also point in time.
Many cases it's just once ayear and by the time you're
acting on it it might havechanged, particularly the amount
of change that we haveorganizationally, and
organizations tend to look atthe lowest score, which might
not be the most important one,and tend to also action on a
one-size-fits-all whenengagement is really
(16:53):
one-size-fits-one, and that'sagain using AI at scale to help
enable what engages me versuswhat engages you.
I see a lot of people getfrustrated where they gave
feedback but they don't seeanything changing, either
because we're not asking theright questions or because
they're not actioning onsomething that's personally
relevant to them.
I think if engagement surveysweren't broken, we would have
(17:16):
seen changes in those results.
I think the 20 to 30 percentconsistency is how we know that
it's not working.
So what we're trying to get atis what's at the root of
engagement.
What are things that are beingfulfilled or not fulfilled for
that person.
That's either helping them tobe engaged, not engaged, which
is driving performance, or notdriving performance.
(17:39):
The other thing we'rerecognizing is that's a whole
person, whole system thing.
So the challenge withengagement surveys is a lot of
times they are focused 100% onwhat's going on in the workplace
.
But if there are significantthings going on in my life where
maybe I'm not in a safe placeat home, or maybe there's
something going on in myrelationships, or maybe I don't
(18:01):
have any hobbies or I don't haveany time for those hobbies,
that's gonna change my level ofengagement and how I show up at
work.
But we don't ever ask aboutthat.
We try and focus on pieces ofthe person and pieces of the
puzzle instead of the wholeperson in the whole system.
So that's what our assessment isdoing differently, both in
(18:23):
being a fluid, dynamic thing,but also looking at that whole
person's needs and thenidentifying some of the trends
that are coming up at the teamlevel and the organizational
level.
One of the things that we'redoing that's unique is looking
at not just what you need butwhere you are in your current
state in relation to that andwhere the gaps are.
(18:44):
So our name ShiftWell is making.
It's about making intentionalshifts.
How do you shift what's in yourcontrol to shift for the gaps
that matter to you, to matter toyour team, that matter to your
organization right now?
Speaker 3 (18:57):
This is really interesting.
You really caught my interestwhen because I love Gallup
information as well and I lookat the graph and I'm like this
number hasn't moved since you'vebeen tracking it.
It's been the same and we tryall these different games and
you talk about getting people'sunique fingerprint, about their
own engagement, and I'm curious,from the people that you have
(19:19):
met and you've gotten to seetheir fingerprint at the root of
engagement, have you seen anycommonalities or themes that
have emerged that we should bethinking about?
That we really aren't.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
Yeah, I mean, I think each person is unique.
I think it is based on aparticular point in time, rather
than you are this, you arealways this, you know.
I think there are a couplethings.
We know that relationships areimportant, but it's not just,
you know.
Relationships at work,relationships at home, matter
too.
(19:56):
A lot of times in engagementsurveys we might ask questions
about whether or not people havethe tools that they need to be
successful in their job, but wedon't actually ask about the
overall environment and the workenvironment.
And particularly I was having aconversation with somebody
recently how, when COVID hit, wewere having all these
conversations about your workfrom home environment.
A lot of organizations wereinvesting in things like
ergonomics or you could get X, yand Z amount of dollars to
(20:20):
spend on things to make yoursurroundings better, but we kind
of have stopped that and wedon't actually find out what
people need in theirenvironments to be effective.
And especially with return tooffice, things like well, it
creates great collaborationspace, but how are we thinking
about people who areneurodivergent, where, for them,
actually working from home isenabling them to be able to do
(20:42):
their best work, because theyreally struggle with a lot of
sensory input or a lot of people.
What about people with socialanxiety?
They can be fantastic employees, but we're trying to put them
in this box.
Can be fantastic employees, butwe're trying to put them in
this box and especially in workenvironments where we're going.
We're returned to officebecause of collaboration.
We're having open floor plansthat works for some, but for
(21:02):
others, that actually can makethem less productive.
For other people they actuallyneed a comfort zone at work
where, like this, is mydedicated space.
I hotel.
Like me personally, hotelingdoes not work for me.
I have so much anxiety about Ineed my space where I feel
comfortable with that.
If I'm spending so much timethinking about where I'm going
to sit, I'm not spending timebeing able to do my best work.
(21:24):
So I think that's a miss in aton of the engagement surveying
today that we're bringing to theforefront and again, not just
thinking about in the workplacebut holistically for that person
, their environment.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
So I want to come back because there were two
organizations you mentioned atthe top of the podcast ShiftWell
which I would love to have youback to talk more about it,
because I couldn't agree withyou more and I feel like I'm a
personal example of someone whohas evolved quite dramatically
over 30 years of my career.
Yet I you know, if I had takenthat, that personality
(22:02):
assessment, at 22, I am sure, Iam quite certain it would have
been quite different than whereI am today at 50.
Um, but that aside, you alsoare the founder of Ignite, so
can you talk a little bit?
Speaker 5 (22:17):
about your work there , yeah, so I like to joke that
I'm a learning and developmenttriple threat I can coach, I can
facilitate, I can consult.
So, as somebody who has oftenScrappy as a team of one been
able to really bring fromscratch leadership development
and team development that hashad actual impact and
(22:38):
sustainability.
I love bringing that to otherorganizations.
So, whether it's throughworkshops, whether it's through
coaching or whether it's throughactual strategic design, a lot
of work I've done actually withorganizations is partnering with
them and how do they transformtheir leadership development and
learning and development fromthat traditional classroom-based
model to something that's morebehavioral-based, to something
(23:01):
that's more bite-sized,just-in-time, reinforceable?
And how can we actuallyleverage AI intentionally within
your organization to do that,rather than just being okay,
here's AI, go use it and hopingfor the best, or focusing our AI
training on just how people canuse AI, how do we actually
leverage AI in the right way toget people what they want when
(23:25):
they need it?
As an L&D professional, I jokethat 100% of what I focus on is
about 1% of what my customers oraudience that I serve focus on,
and often I'm fighting for thatbandwidth with other things.
So how do I make it effortlessand effective for them, and I
think that's something that alot of HR and learning and
development teams struggle with,so I'm there to help them
(23:47):
figure that out.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
So can I ask a quick follow?
Speaker 5 (23:50):
up yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:51):
Because I have spoken with CHROs around the country
in the past six months about theintegration of AI into the
workforce and into the L&D andkind of journey of their
employees and I really think HRfor the first time is being seen
as really being on the frontline of this transformation,
(24:12):
because really CEOs are lookingto CHROs to say, okay, so how
are we integrating AI toincrease productivity?
And CHROs are like I don't knowreally how to do this.
And so if you were to give sayone or two like really practical
tips on I am an employee, Iwant to increase my productivity
(24:32):
, what AI tools would yourecommend that people get
started with to really thinkabout how it could make an
impact on their daily life ortheir daily work?
Speaker 5 (24:44):
Yeah, so I'd love, if you're up for it, I'd love to
give a recommendation toemployees and I'd love to give a
recommendation to CHROs.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:50):
So for employees, I'd say less about what specific
tool you're using and more abouthow you're using it, because I
know that each organization hastheir own policies of what you
can use, and you shouldabsolutely follow that, because
there you a draft that you thenedit.
So, whether that be there's adifficult email that you're
(25:18):
trying to write, or you'retrying to implement something in
six months and you have no ideahow to turn it into a project
plan, or you're trying to make acase for resources for
something specific, ask AI forhelp in creating that draft and
then add your voice to it.
It's also really helpful forsynthesizing data.
So really simple exampleperformance reviews.
(25:39):
Give it your one-on-one docsand say, based on this list out
what you think myaccomplishments are, what you
think my growth opportunitiesare, so that you can do now in
five minutes what maybe it usedto take you hours and hours
before of searching and it'smuch more effective.
So that's kind of that blankpage place to start from, and
(25:59):
then I do think about helpingyou come up with that action
plan.
Ai is really great about thatstep-by-step on what to do, when
and again not taking itverbatim, but actually tweaking
it to what's best for you.
Now here's what I'd say forCHROs a couple things.
One I spent the first part ofmy career actually in the
business versus on the HR side,and I'm really glad I did,
(26:21):
because I feel like it helped mereally understand how people
operate and what the needs ofthe business were, and speak the
language of the business.
And when I became an HR leader,I never lost sight of that.
I think too often for HR, wedesign for people rather than
with people, and it's reallyimportant to understand what the
day-to-day work reality is foryour people, actually shadowing
(26:43):
and watching that.
But bring them into theconversation.
Your people are already using AI, source some of those people
who are champions of it.
Bring them together because ofthat, ask them their best
practices and use cases and thencodify that into instructions,
rather than you trying to createit yourself or enforcing AI to
them.
And then the other thing that Iwould recommend with AI is
(27:06):
every single organization I workwith, their knowledge
management systems are out ofcontrol.
You can't find anything.
They've just become theseunruly messes of data.
Leverage AI to help peoplesource through that but not just
based on topics what theiractual need is.
So if you have leadershipdevelopment frameworks.
(27:27):
If you have leadership training, help the AI learn.
If somebody says I need helpwith a difficult conversation,
here's some of the resourcesthat we already have in the
organization that can help youget better at that.
It's helping them solve fromthe problem they have, not from
what you need them to do.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
I love that.
This is really, reallypractical, and what I'd like to
do as I close this out is inviteyou back in six months because
AI is moving so fast.
I want to know what's going on,but I think it might be moving
so fast we have to have you backin three months.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Exponentially fast.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
But, jordan, thank you so much for being so
generous with your informationand your practical advice.
Good luck with your business.
I really want to see how thecoaches are getting along with
the AI and how things areactually moving, and I'd love to
see what's sticking.
I know with coaching, one ofthe big challenges is really
getting things to stick, so we'dlove to have you back in a few
(28:25):
months and see how things aregoing.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
The sticking piece is important, right, and that's
where AI can be youraccountability partner.
In a way, I think it's hardfrom a personal coach.
So, whether as a coach, you'reusing AI to nudge people or
remind people, or if you'reusing a product like mine, where
that AI is your accountabilitypartner, we don't live in the
matrix.
I can't plug in and know KungFu.
(28:49):
It does require habits andpractice, at least not yet.
Not yet Tomorrow, in threemonths, when I'm back.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
I might know Kung Fu.
Who knows?
I really hope not, but thankyou so much, jordana.
And I love the name of yourcompany, shiftwell, because now
I understand it and I couldn'tagree more that it really helps
move with the shifts that we allhave within our careers and
within ourselves and ourpriorities.
So, wishing you all the bestwith this, I'm excited to see
where it takes you.
Speaker 5 (29:21):
Thank you so much, I appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Thanks, Jordana.
We hope you've enjoyed thisepisode.
If you'd like to hear futureepisodes, be sure to subscribe
to the Happy at Work podcast andleave us a review with your
thoughts.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Are you interested in speaking on a future episode or
want to collaborate with us?
Let us know.
You can send us an email atadmin at happyatworkpodcastcom
and lastly, follow us onLinkedIn or Twitter for even
more happiness.
See you soon.
Welcome back for another episode of the Happy at
Work podcast with Laura Tessaand Michael.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Each week we have thoughtful conversations with
leaders, founders and authorsabout happiness at work.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation.
Enjoy the show.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
Hi and welcome to the Happy at Work podcast.
We are so excited to have withus today Jordana Cole, who is
the co-founder of ShiftWellaiand the founder of Ignited, and
I can't wait to hear about thesetwo organizations.
Welcome, jordana.
Thank you so much.
Yes, it's great to have youhere.
(01:00):
So I'm going to ask you thequestion that we ask many of our
guests, which is can you tellus a little bit about yourself,
your career and where you aretoday?
Speaker 5 (01:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
So.
I'm kind of one of those peoplewho have had a windy career
path.
I've had a lot of roles, I'vebeen in a lot of organizations,
but through it all, a couple ofthings have been true Leadership
.
I've been leading teams sinceI'm 23 years old, fresh out of
college, no experiencewhatsoever Focusing on human
(01:31):
potential and well-being.
So I have a master's degree fromUPenn in applied positive
psychology and really thinkingabout how do we bring out the
best in people in a way thatcreates behavioral change that
doesn't just stick, it spreads.
So that's kind of my MO witheverything that I do.
I joke, I'm not a learningleader, I'm not a development
(01:53):
leader, I am a behaviorist.
So how do we change behaviors?
So, with Ignited, afterspending a decade leading
internal learning anddevelopment and leadership
development at a number ofdifferent corporations, I now,
on my own as a certified coach,as a facilitator, as a
consultant, help organizationswith leadership coaching,
leadership programming,leadership workshops and
(02:14):
learning and developmentstrategy.
And then what I'm reallyexcited about is the work that I
do with my co-founders onShiftWell.
So one of the things that Irealized as an L&D leader and as
an external consultant is it'sreally hard to scale yourself.
It's also really hard to scalethe cost of being able to
support your entire employeebase when you are a huge
(02:37):
organization and so much ofdevelopment focuses on either
executive leaders or frontlinemanagement or people who are in
performance improvement plans,and there's a whole crop of
employees that miss out.
Yet in order for us to be aseffective as possible, we need
everybody being able to do andbring their best every day.
So that's the problem that westarted thinking about at
(03:00):
ShiftWell and said, okay, well,how do we figure out what that
is?
How do we change the questionsthat people are being asked and
get to the root of what peopleneed?
And then how do we actuallyleverage AI at scale to
basically give people on-demandaccess to help them be at their
best, to enable leaders to bringout the best in their people
(03:21):
and to help the organizationmake decisions that will really
invest in the right things atthe right time best in their
people, and to help theorganization make decisions that
will really invest in the rightthings at the right time to
help their people do and feeltheir best every single day.
So that's what I'm about.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
I love the world that you're living in.
I've been teachingentrepreneurship for 15 years
and everyone has this that youreally distilled it down.
The same problem that so manyfounders have how do I scale
myself when there isn't thisunlimited amount of cash?
But now, we have AI.
What are you thinking?
(03:54):
How are you thinking you canuse it?
Speaker 5 (03:57):
Yeah.
So the way that we're planningon leveraging AI is a coach
primarily, and maybe anorganizational consultant as
well.
I really think about AI asbeing that coaching your pocket
and as a coach of myself, atfirst, that terrified me, right?
Because it's like, oh my gosh,am I putting myself out of
business?
Am I putting coaches out ofbusiness?
I truly believe there's a needfor both human coaching and an
(04:20):
opportunity and need for AIcoaching.
So AI endless patience, able tostore and process all kinds of
data and really good abouthelping you come up with
specific step-by-step plans.
And there are a lot of peoplewho still don't really
understand what coaching is andexpect coaching to be somebody
who's more of an advisor or likea personal trainer at the gym.
(04:44):
Want somebody who's there forthem when they need it.
If that happens like a personaltrainer at the gym, want
somebody who's there for themwhen they need it.
If that happens to be at two inthe morning because you are a
night owl, or if it's 6am whenyou're getting your kids ready
for school, that it's there ondemand in my pocket and
affordable for me and myorganization to pay for.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
I'm so fascinated by this topic no-transcript
(05:38):
positions, vice president typeroles I've never had a coach
myself, you know, so it's likeso exciting to think about how
this could be leveraged to givethis type of coaching
opportunity to lots of differentemployees across the hierarchy
of an organization.
So can you talk a little bitmore about your vision for how
(06:02):
this is democratizing coachingand how we can make coaching
more available and moreaccessible?
Speaker 5 (06:09):
Yeah, and I thank you for sharing that and I'm sorry
that you've never had theopportunity of that coach
investment.
You're so spot on aboutdemocratizing and it's
interesting that you bring upthat word and access, because
the early part of my career wasin higher ed and particularly
education technology, and Iworked for a number of years
with the organization that didthe technology behind the common
(06:31):
application, which is somethingthat existed to democratize
educational access to allstudents so that you could
submit one application and applyto all these skills.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
I have a senior in high school who just did this
process, so yes, I understand.
Speaker 5 (06:49):
Yeah.
So I think that's kind ofalways been in the back of my
mind is like how do we do thingslike that similar?
And over my years I've had theability to work with global
audiences and a lot of coachesare native to one or two
languages.
Most it's based on theirschedule, which may or may not
fit with the employee schedule,and I had about six years of
experience working withproduction slash manufacturing
(07:11):
staff and realized those staffthey're hourly based employees.
They can't take an hour and gointo a room and have a
one-on-one coaching session.
They don't have laptops, theydon't have privacy.
So how do we provide things tothem just in time?
And that's been like a bigfocus of mine.
What's the just in time need?
(07:32):
To get people what they needwhen they need it, and AI is the
tool that enables that tohappen.
So, whether it's app based orbrowser based, you can have a
phone, you can have a computer,you could be anywhere at any
time and have a five-minuteconversation and just get the
one thing that you need or notworry about offending it right,
(07:55):
it's there for you, it hasinfinite patience, it's on
demand and, especially in one ofthe things I think we're really
excited about with our productis there's no integration for so
many languages instantaneously.
So if you're a global workforcewhere you have employees who
speak Spanish as their primarylanguage, or Arabic or Mandarin,
(08:18):
whatever it might be, you canget them that coach support
immediately without having toscour the world to put together
a coach network and do all thispairing.
So, from a technologyperspective, that, I think, is
the way to democratize.
Now, I think where a lot ofpeople struggle with AIs is how
do I actually use it?
And it's also only as good asthe data you're giving it or the
(08:42):
level of kind of awareness youhave or the self-awareness.
So, with one of the things thatwe're doing is really focusing
on connecting our AI to a lot ofthe research and science of
what enables somebody to be attheir best, from a combination
of human performance, humanmotivation, well-being, human
engagement, distilling that tocore elements and enabling
(09:04):
individuals to take anassessment to identify their
unique blend of what they need,where they are in relation to
that right now.
And then the AI takes that dataand that's what it uses as a
starting point, while giving theindividual different avenues
that they can engage with it,whether it's to learn more about
themselves, whether it's tocreate a plan, whether it's to
(09:24):
get recommendations of thingsthat they can engage with it.
Whether it's to learn moreabout themselves.
Whether it's to create a plan,whether it's to get
recommendations of things thatthey could do or even role play,
how they have conversationslike this with their boss or
with their spouse about what itis that they actually need.
So, rather than beingcompletely open-ended and
relying on the person to be ableto be fluent in the language of
(09:44):
AI or technology, we're helpingto focus their path to what's
going to create meaningful,impactful behavioral change for
them that will lead to positiveresults for them in their
business.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
I love all this, and now I'm going to ask a question
on behalf of the executivecoaches that are listening now,
who are saying to themselvesthis is great, but what do I do
and how do we work together?
Speaker 5 (10:10):
Yes, yes, first off, I love you executive coaches.
I'm one of you executivecoaches.
I'm not putting you out of ajob, executive coaches so I tend
to think of like we need both.
There are some.
I don't know if either of youare familiar with Dr Cornelia
Walther, but she writes forPsychology Today a lot on the
topic of AI and human merging.
(10:33):
She has had two fantasticarticles in the last two weeks
actually get published.
One is on hybrid humanisticleadership and the other is
about psychological liberationthrough AI.
Yes, that's a mouthful, butultimately what she's getting at
is that we need a partnershipbetween humans and AI.
It's not about AI replacinghumans and that what AI is best
(10:56):
at is synthesizing largequantities of data, helping to
create those insights, reallyhelping us to understand what we
need from a wellbeingperspective, but not replacing
that human relationship,building that human innovation,
et cetera.
And I think that what itdoesn't replace that a human
coach brings to the table is acouple of things.
Ai doesn't notice what's notsaid.
(11:18):
It's very literal.
So, as a coach, there aremoments I literally had a
coaching conversation earliertoday where my client suddenly
got a grin on her face when wewere having a conversation,
which was a complete shift ofenergy and I could notice that I
could pause her and call thatout and we could talk through
that and what that meant in themoment that you can't do with AI
(11:39):
.
Ai doesn't have coach'sintuition where you get that
kind of deep, unexpectedquestion or insight, where
you're getting below the surfaceand really challenging the
thinking, and it's only as goodas its programming Right.
So it might anchor back topleasing you or how you're
training it.
So I can sometimes become whatyou want it to be rather than
what you need it to be, and Ithink that's where human coaches
(12:02):
still are.
No one can replace them on that.
So I think a human coach pairedwith this AI tool could be
really valuable in helping tocreate some of that below the
surface knowledge.
I also think in the lens Tessathat you brought up about
democratization.
I see, with medicine as anexample, there are now things
(12:23):
like concierge service ofdoctors where you get more
dedicated time.
You get a different fear ofcare if you pay for that
particular price point, but ifyou could only afford, you know
that copay, you have urgent careas an option that you can go to
or you have telemedicine thatyou can go to.
There's a market for both and Isee that being the place with
(12:45):
coaching to human.
Coaches have specialized a lotof times in the organizational
space, as you brought up at theexecutive level, or certain use
cases, and that's going tocontinue to be a need.
This is about democratizing.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
I love the metaphor of the medical system and really
thinking about because,honestly, executive coaching has
always been that gold standardthat you might think about.
That's reserved for a selectfew, just like concierge
medicine might be.
But the AI coaching really doesmake it more accessible the way
that urgent care centers andother types of access to
(13:20):
medicine has become moreaccessible over the past decade
or so.
So I really love thatcomparison.
I haven't heard that one beforeand I think it's really
effective.
But I'd love to ask you alittle bit more about the
assessment.
So, you think about?
There's a zillion assessmentsout there Gallup to Myers-Briggs
and so forth so do you thinkspecifically about the
(13:43):
assessment that you alldeveloped and how that actually
informs AI and informs the coach?
Is it more around learning anddevelopment?
Is it more around personalityand managing conflict?
I mean, like, what are youactually assessing for?
And then how is that informingthe coaching process?
Speaker 5 (14:03):
Yeah.
So really, what we're assessingfor is the root of human
motivation and performance.
So, look, I'm a fan ofassessments.
I've been a Gallup strengthscoach for over a decade.
I'm a huge fan ofStrengthsFinder Actually, my
co-founder was on the team thatbuilt the StrengthsFinder
assessment back in the day, sowe are all huge proponents of
(14:25):
that.
There are some limitations, soone of my challenges with a lot
of the assessments that are outthere are they're
personality-based, which meansthey're fixed, even though there
is research lately thatpersonality does shift a bit.
Part of the reason we're calledShiftWell is because we
recognize that people's needswhile we have core needs as
human beings, that they are asunique to us as our fingerprints
(14:47):
and that they shift over time.
That based on the environmentalfactors that we're in, based on
the different life changes thatwe have.
So it's not a fixed point andyou're done.
This is actually something thatyou should take multiple times
and multiple ways to see whatchanges, particularly when you
have significant life changes orthere's significant changes in
(15:09):
the world.
The other challenge that I seeI'm going to take engagement
assessments for a bit, becausethis is an area that we really
are looking to disrupt.
What's amazing to me is, if youlook at the Gallup State of the
Workplace report, engagement isalways somewhere between like
the 28 to 32% range.
No matter what else has changedin the world, even with COVID,
(15:30):
like it's just gone up and downa little bit In what other world
, in a business setting, wouldyou be doing the same thing for
20 plus years and getting 30% ofthe 100% returns that you
expect, and keep doing it?
Yet we keep doing this withengagement surveys.
We keep doing the same thingswe've done 20 years ago.
(15:51):
We haven't changed them at all.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
I have to ask you a question.
Speaker 5 (15:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Just to get clarification.
Speaker 5 (15:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
Do you fundamentally believe that engagement surveys
are broken?
Speaker 5 (16:01):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Okay, okay, so tell me more.
Speaker 5 (16:04):
Yeah, I fundamentally believe engagement surveys are
broken because I think they getat a symptom, not the root.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 5 (16:11):
Engagement is a half step to performance.
It's not something causes thatengagement, it's not some.
There's a need that's generallyfulfilled or unfulfilled.
That means that you are engagedor not engaged.
Now, some engagement surveys doa good job at getting at some
of those things likerelationship with your manager,
(16:32):
but they're also point in time.
Many cases it's just once ayear and by the time you're
acting on it it might havechanged, particularly the amount
of change that we haveorganizationally, and
organizations tend to look atthe lowest score, which might
not be the most important one,and tend to also action on a
one-size-fits-all whenengagement is really
(16:53):
one-size-fits-one, and that'sagain using AI at scale to help
enable what engages me versuswhat engages you.
I see a lot of people getfrustrated where they gave
feedback but they don't seeanything changing, either
because we're not asking theright questions or because
they're not actioning onsomething that's personally
relevant to them.
I think if engagement surveysweren't broken, we would have
(17:16):
seen changes in those results.
I think the 20 to 30 percentconsistency is how we know that
it's not working.
So what we're trying to get atis what's at the root of
engagement.
What are things that are beingfulfilled or not fulfilled for
that person.
That's either helping them tobe engaged, not engaged, which
is driving performance, or notdriving performance.
(17:39):
The other thing we'rerecognizing is that's a whole
person, whole system thing.
So the challenge withengagement surveys is a lot of
times they are focused 100% onwhat's going on in the workplace
.
But if there are significantthings going on in my life where
maybe I'm not in a safe placeat home, or maybe there's
something going on in myrelationships, or maybe I don't
(18:01):
have any hobbies or I don't haveany time for those hobbies,
that's gonna change my level ofengagement and how I show up at
work.
But we don't ever ask aboutthat.
We try and focus on pieces ofthe person and pieces of the
puzzle instead of the wholeperson in the whole system.
So that's what our assessment isdoing differently, both in
(18:23):
being a fluid, dynamic thing,but also looking at that whole
person's needs and thenidentifying some of the trends
that are coming up at the teamlevel and the organizational
level.
One of the things that we'redoing that's unique is looking
at not just what you need butwhere you are in your current
state in relation to that andwhere the gaps are.
(18:44):
So our name ShiftWell is making.
It's about making intentionalshifts.
How do you shift what's in yourcontrol to shift for the gaps
that matter to you, to matter toyour team, that matter to your
organization right now?
Speaker 3 (18:57):
This is really interesting.
You really caught my interestwhen because I love Gallup
information as well and I lookat the graph and I'm like this
number hasn't moved since you'vebeen tracking it.
It's been the same and we tryall these different games and
you talk about getting people'sunique fingerprint, about their
own engagement, and I'm curious,from the people that you have
(19:19):
met and you've gotten to seetheir fingerprint at the root of
engagement, have you seen anycommonalities or themes that
have emerged that we should bethinking about?
That we really aren't.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
Yeah, I mean, I think each person is unique.
I think it is based on aparticular point in time, rather
than you are this, you arealways this, you know.
I think there are a couplethings.
We know that relationships areimportant, but it's not just,
you know.
Relationships at work,relationships at home, matter
too.
(19:56):
A lot of times in engagementsurveys we might ask questions
about whether or not people havethe tools that they need to be
successful in their job, but wedon't actually ask about the
overall environment and the workenvironment.
And particularly I was having aconversation with somebody
recently how, when COVID hit, wewere having all these
conversations about your workfrom home environment.
A lot of organizations wereinvesting in things like
ergonomics or you could get X, yand Z amount of dollars to
(20:20):
spend on things to make yoursurroundings better, but we kind
of have stopped that and wedon't actually find out what
people need in theirenvironments to be effective.
And especially with return tooffice, things like well, it
creates great collaborationspace, but how are we thinking
about people who areneurodivergent, where, for them,
actually working from home isenabling them to be able to do
(20:42):
their best work, because theyreally struggle with a lot of
sensory input or a lot of people.
What about people with socialanxiety?
They can be fantastic employees, but we're trying to put them
in this box.
Can be fantastic employees, butwe're trying to put them in
this box and especially in workenvironments where we're going.
We're returned to officebecause of collaboration.
We're having open floor plansthat works for some, but for
(21:02):
others, that actually can makethem less productive.
For other people they actuallyneed a comfort zone at work
where, like this, is mydedicated space.
I hotel.
Like me personally, hotelingdoes not work for me.
I have so much anxiety about Ineed my space where I feel
comfortable with that.
If I'm spending so much timethinking about where I'm going
to sit, I'm not spending timebeing able to do my best work.
(21:24):
So I think that's a miss in aton of the engagement surveying
today that we're bringing to theforefront and again, not just
thinking about in the workplacebut holistically for that person
, their environment.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
So I want to come back because there were two
organizations you mentioned atthe top of the podcast ShiftWell
which I would love to have youback to talk more about it,
because I couldn't agree withyou more and I feel like I'm a
personal example of someone whohas evolved quite dramatically
over 30 years of my career.
Yet I you know, if I had takenthat, that personality
(22:02):
assessment, at 22, I am sure, Iam quite certain it would have
been quite different than whereI am today at 50.
Um, but that aside, you alsoare the founder of Ignite, so
can you talk a little bit?
Speaker 5 (22:17):
about your work there , yeah, so I like to joke that
I'm a learning and developmenttriple threat I can coach, I can
facilitate, I can consult.
So, as somebody who has oftenScrappy as a team of one been
able to really bring fromscratch leadership development
and team development that hashad actual impact and
(22:38):
sustainability.
I love bringing that to otherorganizations.
So, whether it's throughworkshops, whether it's through
coaching or whether it's throughactual strategic design, a lot
of work I've done actually withorganizations is partnering with
them and how do they transformtheir leadership development and
learning and development fromthat traditional classroom-based
model to something that's morebehavioral-based, to something
(23:01):
that's more bite-sized,just-in-time, reinforceable?
And how can we actuallyleverage AI intentionally within
your organization to do that,rather than just being okay,
here's AI, go use it and hopingfor the best, or focusing our AI
training on just how people canuse AI, how do we actually
leverage AI in the right way toget people what they want when
(23:25):
they need it?
As an L&D professional, I jokethat 100% of what I focus on is
about 1% of what my customers oraudience that I serve focus on,
and often I'm fighting for thatbandwidth with other things.
So how do I make it effortlessand effective for them, and I
think that's something that alot of HR and learning and
development teams struggle with,so I'm there to help them
(23:47):
figure that out.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
So can I ask a quick follow?
Speaker 5 (23:50):
up yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:51):
Because I have spoken with CHROs around the country
in the past six months about theintegration of AI into the
workforce and into the L&D andkind of journey of their
employees and I really think HRfor the first time is being seen
as really being on the frontline of this transformation,
(24:12):
because really CEOs are lookingto CHROs to say, okay, so how
are we integrating AI toincrease productivity?
And CHROs are like I don't knowreally how to do this.
And so if you were to give sayone or two like really practical
tips on I am an employee, Iwant to increase my productivity
(24:32):
, what AI tools would yourecommend that people get
started with to really thinkabout how it could make an
impact on their daily life ortheir daily work?
Speaker 5 (24:44):
Yeah, so I'd love, if you're up for it, I'd love to
give a recommendation toemployees and I'd love to give a
recommendation to CHROs.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:50):
So for employees, I'd say less about what specific
tool you're using and more abouthow you're using it, because I
know that each organization hastheir own policies of what you
can use, and you shouldabsolutely follow that, because
there you a draft that you thenedit.
So, whether that be there's adifficult email that you're
(25:18):
trying to write, or you'retrying to implement something in
six months and you have no ideahow to turn it into a project
plan, or you're trying to make acase for resources for
something specific, ask AI forhelp in creating that draft and
then add your voice to it.
It's also really helpful forsynthesizing data.
So really simple exampleperformance reviews.
(25:39):
Give it your one-on-one docsand say, based on this list out
what you think myaccomplishments are, what you
think my growth opportunitiesare, so that you can do now in
five minutes what maybe it usedto take you hours and hours
before of searching and it'smuch more effective.
So that's kind of that blankpage place to start from, and
(25:59):
then I do think about helpingyou come up with that action
plan.
Ai is really great about thatstep-by-step on what to do, when
and again not taking itverbatim, but actually tweaking
it to what's best for you.
Now here's what I'd say forCHROs a couple things.
One I spent the first part ofmy career actually in the
business versus on the HR side,and I'm really glad I did,
(26:21):
because I feel like it helped mereally understand how people
operate and what the needs ofthe business were, and speak the
language of the business.
And when I became an HR leader,I never lost sight of that.
I think too often for HR, wedesign for people rather than
with people, and it's reallyimportant to understand what the
day-to-day work reality is foryour people, actually shadowing
(26:43):
and watching that.
But bring them into theconversation.
Your people are already using AI, source some of those people
who are champions of it.
Bring them together because ofthat, ask them their best
practices and use cases and thencodify that into instructions,
rather than you trying to createit yourself or enforcing AI to
them.
And then the other thing that Iwould recommend with AI is
(27:06):
every single organization I workwith, their knowledge
management systems are out ofcontrol.
You can't find anything.
They've just become theseunruly messes of data.
Leverage AI to help peoplesource through that but not just
based on topics what theiractual need is.
So if you have leadershipdevelopment frameworks.
(27:27):
If you have leadership training, help the AI learn.
If somebody says I need helpwith a difficult conversation,
here's some of the resourcesthat we already have in the
organization that can help youget better at that.
It's helping them solve fromthe problem they have, not from
what you need them to do.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
I love that.
This is really, reallypractical, and what I'd like to
do as I close this out is inviteyou back in six months because
AI is moving so fast.
I want to know what's going on,but I think it might be moving
so fast we have to have you backin three months.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Exponentially fast.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
But, jordan, thank you so much for being so
generous with your informationand your practical advice.
Good luck with your business.
I really want to see how thecoaches are getting along with
the AI and how things areactually moving, and I'd love to
see what's sticking.
I know with coaching, one ofthe big challenges is really
getting things to stick, so we'dlove to have you back in a few
(28:25):
months and see how things aregoing.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
The sticking piece is important, right, and that's
where AI can be youraccountability partner.
In a way, I think it's hardfrom a personal coach.
So, whether as a coach, you'reusing AI to nudge people or
remind people, or if you'reusing a product like mine, where
that AI is your accountabilitypartner, we don't live in the
matrix.
I can't plug in and know KungFu.
(28:49):
It does require habits andpractice, at least not yet.
Not yet Tomorrow, in threemonths, when I'm back.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
I might know Kung Fu.
Who knows?
I really hope not, but thankyou so much, jordana.
And I love the name of yourcompany, shiftwell, because now
I understand it and I couldn'tagree more that it really helps
move with the shifts that we allhave within our careers and
within ourselves and ourpriorities.
So, wishing you all the bestwith this, I'm excited to see
where it takes you.
Speaker 5 (29:21):
Thank you so much, I appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Thanks, Jordana.
We hope you've enjoyed thisepisode.
If you'd like to hear futureepisodes, be sure to subscribe
to the Happy at Work podcast andleave us a review with your
thoughts.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Are you interested in speaking on a future episode or
want to collaborate with us?
Let us know.
You can send us an email atadmin at happyatworkpodcastcom
and lastly, follow us onLinkedIn or Twitter for even
more happiness.
See you soon.
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