April 22, 2025 • 22 mins
MJ Shaar, a kindness strategist and wellness thought leader, explains how kindness provides the most effective entry point to improving our overall wellness and transforming workplace culture. Through compelling research and personal insights, she reveals how kindness impacts everything from arterial health to company profits.
• Mood is the easiest wellness habit to change, and kindness provides the most effective and lasting boost
• Kindness in the workplace directly improves engagement: 54% of employees who can approach managers with questions are engaged versus only 2% of those who can't
• Workplace incivility costs US businesses an estimated $2.7 billion daily through lost productivity
• A groundbreaking study showed rabbits receiving affectionate handling had 60% less arterial plaque despite identical high-fat diets
• Experiencing kindness reduces cortisol, inflammation, and stress while improving sleep quality
• Learning to receive kindness graciously creates "positive resonance," strengthening relationships and multiplying benefits
• Rather than random acts of kindness, aim for routine "micro-kindnesses" that become part of your identity
• Addressing burnout through kindness requires organizational change that creates psychological safety
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome back for another episode of the Happy at
Work podcast with Laura Tessaand Michael.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Each week we have thoughtful conversations with
leaders, founders and authorsabout happiness at work.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation.
Enjoy the show.
Welcome to the Happy at Workpodcast.
I'm Michael McCarthy and I wantto welcome our guest today, mj
(00:45):
Scharr.
Mj is a keynote speaker, akindness strategist and a
wellness thought leader.
Mj, welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Thank you, michael.
I'm so happy to be here.
Those are some fabulous titles,I just have to say so.
I'm really excited to talk toyou.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
They're really good, they're really good.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I did work on it.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
There has been so much talk about kindness lately
and I was wondering could youtell us about your career
journey?
How did you end up withkindness and how did you become
an expert?
Tell us your story.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Well, thank you for asking this question, michael.
I think it's a very interestingpath.
How I got here?
At first I was very interestedin personal wellness and at the
time we limited personalwellness a whole lot to food and
exercise habits.
But we already were starting torealize that this was
incomplete.
So I created a model to helppeople improve sleep, food, mood
(01:37):
and exercise in rotation, notall at once.
But what I realized is that alot of people would tell me, mj,
I've tried everything, I stillcan't sleep.
Or, mj, I hate to exercise.
The minute I sweat or myheartbeat goes up, I'm
uncomfortable.
But I never heard anyone tellme, mj, I've tried all the
tricks in the book and I'm stillthe same old grumpy guy I was
(01:58):
last year.
So I realized mood is theeasiest entry point to improving
our habits.
And inside of mood, whatpositive psychology reveals is
that the easiest way to have aneffective boost, and a long
lasting one, is to start withkindness.
So I decided let's go straightfor kindness.
(02:18):
And then over time I realizedit improves our biometrics, it
improves our longevity, itimproves obviously our
relationships, our work, culture.
The benefits are seeminglyendless.
And the more I study, the moreI discover, the more committed I
am to boosting our ability tobe kinder to each other.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
So, mj, I mean I absolutely love this, and if
there's a shortcut to having ahealthier lifestyle that doesn't
necessarily include running amarathon, then I am all ears for
this type of strategy.
But I would love to for you totalk a little bit more about how
people access kindness, right?
So if you think about someonein a really stressful job
(02:59):
situation or with stressfulfamily situations, how how can
people actually you know,actually quote unquote access
kindness in a way that canreally be beneficial to them?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yes, I think we have to realize that we all want to
be kind.
Everybody that I know wants tobe a good person.
I don't know one single personwho's proud to be a jerk right.
And so the desire is within us.
I think it's innate, and if welook at studies in babies, we
realize that humans tend tolearn kindness and generosity
(03:30):
way before they learncompetition and the more harsher
behaviors that we see in theworkplace.
So those harsher behaviors arelearned, and they're learned
because in our culture we valuethe achievement of goals over
and above alignment with ourpersonal values, of goals over
and above alignment with ourpersonal values.
But people who do a simpleexercise of identifying their
personal values and then aligntheir decisions and their
(03:51):
behaviors with those values seean increase in their self-esteem
, an increase in theirfulfillment and an improvement
of their relationships.
Suddenly we feel more attunedto other people's needs.
So I think that we need to stopprioritizing our goals so much
and instead pursue valuealignment If we want to access
that kindness and with it wealso enjoy our lives a little
(04:15):
bit better.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
I love that.
Now, when you said the grumpyperson.
If there's a grumpy CEO whomight be listening to this
podcast who says listen, I don'tcare if you're kind or not, get
the job done and these arepeople that look at metrics, how
could we convince a CEO who'sreally just focused on the
bottom line that kindness canhelp the bottom line?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Yes, it can.
If you are one of those show methe money, ceo, then you are
also someone who believes innumbers, and what we know is
that there are so manystatistics I don't even know
which ones to throw at you.
So, for example, 54% ofemployees who know they can
approach their manager with justabout any question they might
(04:59):
have are engaged, versus only 2%of those who say no, I can't
approach my manager are engaged.
And of those who say I can'tapproach my manager, 65% are
actively disengaged.
So they're actually hurtingyour company willfully.
So that's just one example.
You have a question?
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Go ahead.
I was just going to follow up.
Those are incredible statistics.
I mean that's money, that'smoney out the door.
That's money out the door.
Incredible statistics.
I mean that's money, that'smoney out the door.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yes that's money out the door, and there's so many
more.
Like 76 percent of employeeshave directly experienced
incivility at work and, as aresult, they lose two days of
productivity a month.
Q4 of 2024 shows thatincivility at work, or a lack of
(05:50):
kindness, really costs USbusiness 2.7 billion a day.
Can you believe that?
You said money out the window?
That's the next statistic thatI went to.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
You need a big window to push that much out the door.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
You do.
Now.
Employees who have a sense ofbelonging are 1.5 times more
productive, 2.2 times moresatisfied with their work, so
they're more loyal.
It reduces your cost of hiringand firing and all of those
things I mean.
I can keep on going, butthere's so many numbers and if
you are someone who believes inthe numbers, you can't just
dismiss this data.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
I think that's so important, MJ, especially in the
context of conversations thatwe're having today with
companies around DEI diversity,equity and inclusion.
And oftentimes, when we talkabout inclusive workplaces,
we're talking aboutbelongingness, we're talking
about psychological safety, andwhat I find interesting is that
(06:38):
a lot of the statistics you'retalking about in the context of
kindness really leads to moreemployee engagement, which leads
to higher productivity, whichleads to, obviously, revenue
generation and growth and soforth.
But I haven't heard theconnections before or at least I
haven't made them in my ownmind but between kindness and
(06:59):
kind of the major principles inwhich diversity, equity,
inclusion are based upon, kindof the major principles in which
diversity, equity, inclusionare based upon right.
So I'm just curious in your ownwork, have you seen these
connections made betweenconcepts around psychological
safety and Amy Edmondson's workand then the positive psychology
and the kindness research?
Like, what are the connectionsthat you're seeing?
(07:20):
Are we talking about the samething or are they kind of
distinctly different butconnected to each other?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
They are all connected and I think that
kindness has many flavors, right?
So acceptance for a variety ofbackgrounds and interests and
styles is one thing.
Compassion for other people'sstruggles and situations is
another one.
Thanksgiving gratitude, right,for people's contributions, for
what they bring not only to theworkplace but to your life, is
(07:48):
another flavor of kindness.
So I pulled from the research,from all of these other connects
domains, because I think thatthey all are part of a greater
whole and they all come together.
You can't really easily youknow, part from one another.
Oh, this is when I'm kindversus this is when I'm
compassionate.
Well, you know, you can becompassionate without being kind
(08:08):
, but it's kind of hard to do,right, like you can give the
money to the homeless guy andnot really give him a second.
Look, you haven't been kind,but you've been a little bit
compassionate, right, you can bekind without being
compassionate.
If you give somebody praise,you're not necessarily
expressing compassion.
So they are separate, but theoverlap or the intersection if
they were a Venn diagram is verylarge.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
You know, MJ, I believe in being kind because
it's just how I was raised.
I find that when I'm kind tosomeone, I feel like I get more
out of it than they do Likehelping people who help yes,
they get.
They feel better than the personwho received the help.
I could just imagine, you knowsome snarky person in their
(08:50):
cubicle saying, oh great, now Iget to go to a kindness training
.
Like what's that about?
How do you?
How would you actually getpeople to start Like what's one
or two things that they could dotoday that are real and not
just some sort of like fakecheck the box?
Like, like, how does someonestart with this?
If they're, if they want to tryit, they're willing, how do
they start?
What do we do?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Right, so well.
First I'd like to start withthe people who are really
willing and able.
And you know, just like inpositive psychology, focus on
your strengths, right, focus onyour assets.
So those who are really willingand who are eager to do it are
going to already start totransform the relationships, and
then those who are a little bitmore snarky will probably
become the recipient of thatkindness.
(09:32):
Now that can also becomedifficult, and I found in my own
little research.
I was trying to identify whatare the obstacles to kindness,
and by far what rose to the topin my project was the ability to
receive kindness.
So we have this thought thatit's better to give than to
receive.
We're a little bit afraid tohave to reciprocate later or to
(09:53):
be vulnerable.
Or maybe we're cynics and we'relike no, I don't believe that
you're just being kind, Ibelieve that you want something
in return.
So sometimes it's difficult toaccept the kindness, and I know
for me, I want to receive thekindness.
I'm very willing to do it, butI've been trained over the years
or I've trained myself.
I'm not sure to say things likeoh, thank you, it really wasn't
(10:16):
that big a deal.
Or somebody compliments myshirt and I'll say, oh, I got
this on sale, or this is so old,or you know, like I'll try to
deflect and diminish, like Ihave a hard time to accept
wholeheartedly.
So that's something that Iteach in my trainings and for
those people who have a hardtime, maybe that's the very
first step.
How do you receive the?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
kindness.
I was that person that I'm morethan happy to help.
I will help you all day long.
As far as receiving help, Iwould feel awkward that I don't
deserve it, and I guess that'ssomething to do with self-esteem
or whatever.
And I told this to a friend andwe both knew the data that the
person who receives the help theother person is getting more,
(10:55):
more out of it.
And he had said this to I thinkit was his pastor at church and
he was saying you know, I'mhappy to help, but I have a hard
time receiving it.
And the pastor said well, youknow, they really, they really
feel great when they help, andwhen you say no to help, you're
depriving them of joy.
Yes, that's what switched me.
That's when I said I will letyou help me because I want you
(11:21):
to feel good.
I don't tell them that's whatI'm doing.
And now that was.
That was sort of like my littlebaby step into receiving help.
And when I had my first majoroperation almost a year ago, I
needed help.
I was on crutches.
I had to say yes to everything.
It felt so good for people justto hold the door for me and
hold the elevator for me andthey would say hey, can I walk
your dog?
And I was like yeah, here's theleash, there you go.
(11:43):
I was like I'm making you feelgreat.
Go walk my dog.
It was a great way to ease intoit and it took a while.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yeah, yes.
But here's the thing when weaccept the kindness graciously,
we become givers.
We create a chance at positiveresonance.
Where the giver feels good, weaccept graciously, we make them
feel a little bit better thanthey already felt through our
reaction.
So the positivity resonatesbetween the two people, the
(12:12):
relationship strengthens.
That's really where the magichappens.
So in my trainings I try to givepeople like ready answers to
have in their back pockets, sothat when they are offered
kindness, instead of trying todeflect, which is their usual
mental pathways, they knowexactly what to respond.
So simple things like thank you, I really received that.
Or thank you that just upliftedme, or that's so kind of you
(12:36):
right, focusing on the otherperson, or that meant a lot,
whatever feels funny or sorry,whatever feels authentic.
And sometimes I even like to goto something funny, like now,
if somebody compliments my shirt, instead of saying, oh, I got
this on sale, I say, oh, thankyou, now I feel sexy, right.
So anything to kind of nourishthat positivity between the two
(12:57):
people helps and I think thatgrumpy person you were talking
about earlier will not be ableto resist it.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
So I really want to hone in on something you said
really at the top of the podcast, which was about the health
benefits, because another piecethat we talk, a topic we talk
about a lot on this podcast, iswellbeing, addressing burnout.
We started this podcast duringthe pandemic and so many
conversations we've had sincehave been around health,
(13:28):
well-being, addressing burnoutand so forth.
So can you talk a little bitmore about what are those health
benefits that can be receivedas a result of kindness either
receiving kindness or being kindand how can that be applied?
If you really want to thinkabout your overall health and
(13:49):
well-being, how can you bereally intentional as a person
and what kind of benefits mightyou see from that?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Absolutely, I would love to.
There's really three big thingsthat we see with kindness.
So the first one I have to tellyou the study, the design of
that study, how they found thoseresults.
So in 1978, dr Naram which is aprofessor emeritus in
bioengineering at Georgia Techright, so not something
lighthearted, right he wasstudying rabbits and back in
(14:18):
those days we didn't yet knowthe connection between what we
eat and our cholesterol levels.
So he was trying to establishthat connection and what he was
testing out was what happens torabbits if we feed them high fat
diets and as we.
How is that possible?
Genetically they are allsimilar.
(14:51):
They all have the same exerciseroutine, they're all fed at the
same time.
They're all fed the exact samething.
He went back to his study design, talked to people what's the
difference?
What's the difference?
What's the difference?
He could not figure it out.
One day he saw the animalhandlers and one of them had a
very natural caring instinct andwhen she grabbed the bunnies,
instead of treating them withindifference which is how we
(15:14):
treat each other in theworkplace she treated them with
care.
She would pet them and say, oh,you're such a sweet bunny, I
love you, you're so soft and allthese things.
And that was a difference,because the bunnies were treated
with love.
Their blood vessels reacteddifferently to the cholesterol
that was in their bloodstreamright.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
I wonder if there's a correlation with reduced
inflammation.
I've heard that inflammation issuch a link to so many things
that if your inflammation wasreduced through kindness and
petting the rabbit or someoneholding your hand, I wonder if
that would be so now, if peopleare nicer to each other or
kinder to each other in work.
(15:54):
Could our insurance bills godown?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah, I would like to say yes, honestly.
So just to finish up the firststudy, he couldn't believe it.
He replicated the study, hereplicated the results and this
time, instead of assigning thebunnies you know and kind of,
instead of looking at whichbunnies were with whom, he
assigned them to this caretakerversus another caretaker and
(16:18):
realized, wow, she is the onereally that makes a difference
for the blood vessels.
So now, michael, you wereasking me about my point number
two.
When we are kinder, when weexercise kindness, or even when
we receive kindness actuallyeven when we just witness
kindness our stress response isdiminished, our rest and
relaxation response isheightened, our production of
(16:40):
cortisol is reduced and withthat we reduce food cravings, we
sleep better at night, we aremore likely to implement our
good, healthy intentionselsewhere in our life, and so we
have other physiologicalreactions that kick in and that
keep us healthy.
You know Barbara Fredrickson I'msure you've talked about her
before on this podcast right,and her work shows that people
(17:03):
who enjoy more micro moments ofconnection.
So a micro moment of connectionis when two human beings look
at each other in their eyes andjust have the subtext.
I get you, I understand, I'mwith you, right, you're truly
connecting.
More of those moments lead toreduced inflammation exactly
where you were going, michaeland that also leads to less
(17:26):
cancer, less diabetes, lessAlzheimer's.
I don't know about you, guys,I'd rather do without those
things.
So I'm working on my microconnections instead.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
Well, so just to make the connection to the workplace
, are there recommendations thatyou make when it comes to
personal well-being oraddressing burnout?
Specifically, what kind ofrecommendations would you make
to either an individual orperhaps a workplace to think
about how to integrate more ofthese acts of kindness in order
to boost wellness?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yes, so burnout is really a systemic issue.
Right, you can reframe all daylong, you can try and be
grateful all day long andpositive and not sweat the small
stuff.
But if there is just too muchpressure, there is just too much
pressure.
If there is just too much workand a normal human being cannot
get through it and that leads tobeing absent at home, cutting
(18:17):
out your workouts, cutting outyour night's sleep, an amount of
stress that is undue to yourbrain and body.
I mean, there is only so muchyou can do about burnout as an
individual.
But when the whole culturestarts to become kinder, right,
then it makes a difference.
Suddenly you don't have to go toall of these other meetings
that are not really yourexpertise but you have to be
(18:39):
part of, just to see why.
Right, suddenly it is possibleto say to someone with a little
bit more confidence I am justdrowning right now.
Can I get this back to you intwo weeks instead of in three
days?
Suddenly it is possible to goto your manager and say I have a
little too much, I'm stressedout.
Can I get some help?
Can we hire some external helpfor the next two weeks, the next
(19:03):
month?
Can I step out of thiscommittee?
And now?
You don't fear of retribution,you don't fear for your career
trajectory, because people havethat compassion, they have that
understanding, they want you tobe at your best.
They don't want you to justcheck the box and be there.
They want you to perform welland they understand that.
For that to happen, you need tohave a little bit more
(19:25):
flexibility, a little bit morepsychological safety, a little
bit more ability to rest inbetween pushes at work.
So it really needs to beapplied at the organizational
level for it to have an impacton burnout rates.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I love this and we always run out of time but I
like to talk.
So my, my, my final thing andI'm so glad that you came onto
the show and it's um reminded methat when I was in a training
for something and they were,they were they used the phrase
microaggressions.
You know, people just kind ofdoing these little little little
nasty tidbits here and there,and it gave me the idea of what
(19:59):
do you think aboutmicro-kindnesses and how could
people try them, Like what's afew micro-kindnesses someone
could just kind of check?
Speaker 4 (20:07):
out.
Michael, I was thinking theexact same thing, because, we
are.
We obviously have been workingtogether for a long time.
Micro-kindnesses Sorry, MJ.
What would you say to that?
I was literally thinking theexact same thing.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
I I mean micro.
The more you can infuse yourpersonality with kindness, the
better the results, right?
I don't really love the randomacts of kindness campaigns,
because, sure, it's good, but wedon't want kindness to be
random, we want it to be routine, right?
So all of the micro kindnesses,starting with receiving
(20:40):
kindness a little bit morewillingly, right?
Just more civility, like yousaid, people holding the door
for me I thought that was sokind.
Is it really kindness or is itjust pure civility?
Right, but it's an entry point,it is something, it is a step
in the right direction.
So, all of these little things,a little bit more of the thank
yous, the pleases I appreciatethat, right, using the language
(21:03):
that we have learned as kids weshouldn't be using all the time
and that as grownups we'rerushing and we forget about them
.
Right?
All of these little things theydo add up, but their power is
in transforming how you viewyourself, right?
If you just do them just to sayoh yeah, I said please, I said
(21:24):
thank you and I held the doortoday, I'm good, it won't do
much.
But if you see yourself as I amsomeone who never misses a
chance to say thank you, I amsomeone who appreciates other
people and it shows in such andsuch ways, right, you make it
more part of your identity, thenthat's when it's really
powerful.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
I love that.
Mj, thank you so much for beingon the show.
What, what?
I'm going to leave anyone who'sstill feeling a little bit
skeptical.
The other day, daniel Pinkshared a little bit of research
that people who were kind lookphysically more attractive to
other people.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
So there's another reason to check it out.
Thank you so much for joiningus today, mj, and we'd love to
have you back and talk a littlebit more about kindness, thank
you so much.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Thank you, MJ.
This was a wonderfulconversation.
Thank you for having me, guys.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
This was super fun.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
We hope you've enjoyed this episode.
If you'd like to hear futureepisodes, be sure to subscribe
to the Happy at Work podcast andleave us a review with your
thoughts.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Are you interested in speaking on a future episode or
want to collaborate with us?
Let us know.
You can send us an email atadmin at happyatworkpodcastcom.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
And lastly, follow us on LinkedIn or Twitter for even
more happiness.
See you soon.
Welcome back for another episode of the Happy at
Work podcast with Laura Tessaand Michael.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Each week we have thoughtful conversations with
leaders, founders and authorsabout happiness at work.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation.
Enjoy the show.
Welcome to the Happy at Workpodcast.
I'm Michael McCarthy and I wantto welcome our guest today, mj
(00:45):
Scharr.
Mj is a keynote speaker, akindness strategist and a
wellness thought leader.
Mj, welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Thank you, michael.
I'm so happy to be here.
Those are some fabulous titles,I just have to say so.
I'm really excited to talk toyou.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
They're really good, they're really good.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I did work on it.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
There has been so much talk about kindness lately
and I was wondering could youtell us about your career
journey?
How did you end up withkindness and how did you become
an expert?
Tell us your story.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Well, thank you for asking this question, michael.
I think it's a very interestingpath.
How I got here?
At first I was very interestedin personal wellness and at the
time we limited personalwellness a whole lot to food and
exercise habits.
But we already were starting torealize that this was
incomplete.
So I created a model to helppeople improve sleep, food, mood
(01:37):
and exercise in rotation, notall at once.
But what I realized is that alot of people would tell me, mj,
I've tried everything, I stillcan't sleep.
Or, mj, I hate to exercise.
The minute I sweat or myheartbeat goes up, I'm
uncomfortable.
But I never heard anyone tellme, mj, I've tried all the
tricks in the book and I'm stillthe same old grumpy guy I was
(01:58):
last year.
So I realized mood is theeasiest entry point to improving
our habits.
And inside of mood, whatpositive psychology reveals is
that the easiest way to have aneffective boost, and a long
lasting one, is to start withkindness.
So I decided let's go straightfor kindness.
(02:18):
And then over time I realizedit improves our biometrics, it
improves our longevity, itimproves obviously our
relationships, our work, culture.
The benefits are seeminglyendless.
And the more I study, the moreI discover, the more committed I
am to boosting our ability tobe kinder to each other.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
So, mj, I mean I absolutely love this, and if
there's a shortcut to having ahealthier lifestyle that doesn't
necessarily include running amarathon, then I am all ears for
this type of strategy.
But I would love to for you totalk a little bit more about how
people access kindness, right?
So if you think about someonein a really stressful job
(02:59):
situation or with stressfulfamily situations, how how can
people actually you know,actually quote unquote access
kindness in a way that canreally be beneficial to them?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yes, I think we have to realize that we all want to
be kind.
Everybody that I know wants tobe a good person.
I don't know one single personwho's proud to be a jerk right.
And so the desire is within us.
I think it's innate, and if welook at studies in babies, we
realize that humans tend tolearn kindness and generosity
(03:30):
way before they learncompetition and the more harsher
behaviors that we see in theworkplace.
So those harsher behaviors arelearned, and they're learned
because in our culture we valuethe achievement of goals over
and above alignment with ourpersonal values, of goals over
and above alignment with ourpersonal values.
But people who do a simpleexercise of identifying their
personal values and then aligntheir decisions and their
(03:51):
behaviors with those values seean increase in their self-esteem
, an increase in theirfulfillment and an improvement
of their relationships.
Suddenly we feel more attunedto other people's needs.
So I think that we need to stopprioritizing our goals so much
and instead pursue valuealignment If we want to access
that kindness and with it wealso enjoy our lives a little
(04:15):
bit better.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
I love that.
Now, when you said the grumpyperson.
If there's a grumpy CEO whomight be listening to this
podcast who says listen, I don'tcare if you're kind or not, get
the job done and these arepeople that look at metrics, how
could we convince a CEO who'sreally just focused on the
bottom line that kindness canhelp the bottom line?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Yes, it can.
If you are one of those show methe money, ceo, then you are
also someone who believes innumbers, and what we know is
that there are so manystatistics I don't even know
which ones to throw at you.
So, for example, 54% ofemployees who know they can
approach their manager with justabout any question they might
(04:59):
have are engaged, versus only 2%of those who say no, I can't
approach my manager are engaged.
And of those who say I can'tapproach my manager, 65% are
actively disengaged.
So they're actually hurtingyour company willfully.
So that's just one example.
You have a question?
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Go ahead.
I was just going to follow up.
Those are incredible statistics.
I mean that's money, that'smoney out the door.
That's money out the door.
Incredible statistics.
I mean that's money, that'smoney out the door.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yes that's money out the door, and there's so many
more.
Like 76 percent of employeeshave directly experienced
incivility at work and, as aresult, they lose two days of
productivity a month.
Q4 of 2024 shows thatincivility at work, or a lack of
(05:50):
kindness, really costs USbusiness 2.7 billion a day.
Can you believe that?
You said money out the window?
That's the next statistic thatI went to.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
You need a big window to push that much out the door.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
You do.
Now.
Employees who have a sense ofbelonging are 1.5 times more
productive, 2.2 times moresatisfied with their work, so
they're more loyal.
It reduces your cost of hiringand firing and all of those
things I mean.
I can keep on going, butthere's so many numbers and if
you are someone who believes inthe numbers, you can't just
dismiss this data.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
I think that's so important, MJ, especially in the
context of conversations thatwe're having today with
companies around DEI diversity,equity and inclusion.
And oftentimes, when we talkabout inclusive workplaces,
we're talking aboutbelongingness, we're talking
about psychological safety, andwhat I find interesting is that
(06:38):
a lot of the statistics you'retalking about in the context of
kindness really leads to moreemployee engagement, which leads
to higher productivity, whichleads to, obviously, revenue
generation and growth and soforth.
But I haven't heard theconnections before or at least I
haven't made them in my ownmind but between kindness and
(06:59):
kind of the major principles inwhich diversity, equity,
inclusion are based upon, kindof the major principles in which
diversity, equity, inclusionare based upon right.
So I'm just curious in your ownwork, have you seen these
connections made betweenconcepts around psychological
safety and Amy Edmondson's workand then the positive psychology
and the kindness research?
Like, what are the connectionsthat you're seeing?
(07:20):
Are we talking about the samething or are they kind of
distinctly different butconnected to each other?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
They are all connected and I think that
kindness has many flavors, right?
So acceptance for a variety ofbackgrounds and interests and
styles is one thing.
Compassion for other people'sstruggles and situations is
another one.
Thanksgiving gratitude, right,for people's contributions, for
what they bring not only to theworkplace but to your life, is
(07:48):
another flavor of kindness.
So I pulled from the research,from all of these other connects
domains, because I think thatthey all are part of a greater
whole and they all come together.
You can't really easily youknow, part from one another.
Oh, this is when I'm kindversus this is when I'm
compassionate.
Well, you know, you can becompassionate without being kind
(08:08):
, but it's kind of hard to do,right, like you can give the
money to the homeless guy andnot really give him a second.
Look, you haven't been kind,but you've been a little bit
compassionate, right, you can bekind without being
compassionate.
If you give somebody praise,you're not necessarily
expressing compassion.
So they are separate, but theoverlap or the intersection if
they were a Venn diagram is verylarge.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
You know, MJ, I believe in being kind because
it's just how I was raised.
I find that when I'm kind tosomeone, I feel like I get more
out of it than they do Likehelping people who help yes,
they get.
They feel better than the personwho received the help.
I could just imagine, you knowsome snarky person in their
(08:50):
cubicle saying, oh great, now Iget to go to a kindness training
.
Like what's that about?
How do you?
How would you actually getpeople to start Like what's one
or two things that they could dotoday that are real and not
just some sort of like fakecheck the box?
Like, like, how does someonestart with this?
If they're, if they want to tryit, they're willing, how do
they start?
What do we do?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Right, so well.
First I'd like to start withthe people who are really
willing and able.
And you know, just like inpositive psychology, focus on
your strengths, right, focus onyour assets.
So those who are really willingand who are eager to do it are
going to already start totransform the relationships, and
then those who are a little bitmore snarky will probably
become the recipient of thatkindness.
(09:32):
Now that can also becomedifficult, and I found in my own
little research.
I was trying to identify whatare the obstacles to kindness,
and by far what rose to the topin my project was the ability to
receive kindness.
So we have this thought thatit's better to give than to
receive.
We're a little bit afraid tohave to reciprocate later or to
(09:53):
be vulnerable.
Or maybe we're cynics and we'relike no, I don't believe that
you're just being kind, Ibelieve that you want something
in return.
So sometimes it's difficult toaccept the kindness, and I know
for me, I want to receive thekindness.
I'm very willing to do it, butI've been trained over the years
or I've trained myself.
I'm not sure to say things likeoh, thank you, it really wasn't
(10:16):
that big a deal.
Or somebody compliments myshirt and I'll say, oh, I got
this on sale, or this is so old,or you know, like I'll try to
deflect and diminish, like Ihave a hard time to accept
wholeheartedly.
So that's something that Iteach in my trainings and for
those people who have a hardtime, maybe that's the very
first step.
How do you receive the?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
kindness.
I was that person that I'm morethan happy to help.
I will help you all day long.
As far as receiving help, Iwould feel awkward that I don't
deserve it, and I guess that'ssomething to do with self-esteem
or whatever.
And I told this to a friend andwe both knew the data that the
person who receives the help theother person is getting more,
(10:55):
more out of it.
And he had said this to I thinkit was his pastor at church and
he was saying you know, I'mhappy to help, but I have a hard
time receiving it.
And the pastor said well, youknow, they really, they really
feel great when they help, andwhen you say no to help, you're
depriving them of joy.
Yes, that's what switched me.
That's when I said I will letyou help me because I want you
(11:21):
to feel good.
I don't tell them that's whatI'm doing.
And now that was.
That was sort of like my littlebaby step into receiving help.
And when I had my first majoroperation almost a year ago, I
needed help.
I was on crutches.
I had to say yes to everything.
It felt so good for people justto hold the door for me and
hold the elevator for me andthey would say hey, can I walk
your dog?
And I was like yeah, here's theleash, there you go.
(11:43):
I was like I'm making you feelgreat.
Go walk my dog.
It was a great way to ease intoit and it took a while.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yeah, yes.
But here's the thing when weaccept the kindness graciously,
we become givers.
We create a chance at positiveresonance.
Where the giver feels good, weaccept graciously, we make them
feel a little bit better thanthey already felt through our
reaction.
So the positivity resonatesbetween the two people, the
(12:12):
relationship strengthens.
That's really where the magichappens.
So in my trainings I try to givepeople like ready answers to
have in their back pockets, sothat when they are offered
kindness, instead of trying todeflect, which is their usual
mental pathways, they knowexactly what to respond.
So simple things like thank you, I really received that.
Or thank you that just upliftedme, or that's so kind of you
(12:36):
right, focusing on the otherperson, or that meant a lot,
whatever feels funny or sorry,whatever feels authentic.
And sometimes I even like to goto something funny, like now,
if somebody compliments my shirt, instead of saying, oh, I got
this on sale, I say, oh, thankyou, now I feel sexy, right.
So anything to kind of nourishthat positivity between the two
(12:57):
people helps and I think thatgrumpy person you were talking
about earlier will not be ableto resist it.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
So I really want to hone in on something you said
really at the top of the podcast, which was about the health
benefits, because another piecethat we talk, a topic we talk
about a lot on this podcast, iswellbeing, addressing burnout.
We started this podcast duringthe pandemic and so many
conversations we've had sincehave been around health,
(13:28):
well-being, addressing burnoutand so forth.
So can you talk a little bitmore about what are those health
benefits that can be receivedas a result of kindness either
receiving kindness or being kindand how can that be applied?
If you really want to thinkabout your overall health and
(13:49):
well-being, how can you bereally intentional as a person
and what kind of benefits mightyou see from that?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Absolutely, I would love to.
There's really three big thingsthat we see with kindness.
So the first one I have to tellyou the study, the design of
that study, how they found thoseresults.
So in 1978, dr Naram which is aprofessor emeritus in
bioengineering at Georgia Techright, so not something
lighthearted, right he wasstudying rabbits and back in
(14:18):
those days we didn't yet knowthe connection between what we
eat and our cholesterol levels.
So he was trying to establishthat connection and what he was
testing out was what happens torabbits if we feed them high fat
diets and as we.
How is that possible?
Genetically they are allsimilar.
(14:51):
They all have the same exerciseroutine, they're all fed at the
same time.
They're all fed the exact samething.
He went back to his study design, talked to people what's the
difference?
What's the difference?
What's the difference?
He could not figure it out.
One day he saw the animalhandlers and one of them had a
very natural caring instinct andwhen she grabbed the bunnies,
instead of treating them withindifference which is how we
(15:14):
treat each other in theworkplace she treated them with
care.
She would pet them and say, oh,you're such a sweet bunny, I
love you, you're so soft and allthese things.
And that was a difference,because the bunnies were treated
with love.
Their blood vessels reacteddifferently to the cholesterol
that was in their bloodstreamright.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
I wonder if there's a correlation with reduced
inflammation.
I've heard that inflammation issuch a link to so many things
that if your inflammation wasreduced through kindness and
petting the rabbit or someoneholding your hand, I wonder if
that would be so now, if peopleare nicer to each other or
kinder to each other in work.
(15:54):
Could our insurance bills godown?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah, I would like to say yes, honestly.
So just to finish up the firststudy, he couldn't believe it.
He replicated the study, hereplicated the results and this
time, instead of assigning thebunnies you know and kind of,
instead of looking at whichbunnies were with whom, he
assigned them to this caretakerversus another caretaker and
(16:18):
realized, wow, she is the onereally that makes a difference
for the blood vessels.
So now, michael, you wereasking me about my point number
two.
When we are kinder, when weexercise kindness, or even when
we receive kindness actuallyeven when we just witness
kindness our stress response isdiminished, our rest and
relaxation response isheightened, our production of
(16:40):
cortisol is reduced and withthat we reduce food cravings, we
sleep better at night, we aremore likely to implement our
good, healthy intentionselsewhere in our life, and so we
have other physiologicalreactions that kick in and that
keep us healthy.
You know Barbara Fredrickson I'msure you've talked about her
before on this podcast right,and her work shows that people
(17:03):
who enjoy more micro moments ofconnection.
So a micro moment of connectionis when two human beings look
at each other in their eyes andjust have the subtext.
I get you, I understand, I'mwith you, right, you're truly
connecting.
More of those moments lead toreduced inflammation exactly
where you were going, michaeland that also leads to less
(17:26):
cancer, less diabetes, lessAlzheimer's.
I don't know about you, guys,I'd rather do without those
things.
So I'm working on my microconnections instead.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
Well, so just to make the connection to the workplace
, are there recommendations thatyou make when it comes to
personal well-being oraddressing burnout?
Specifically, what kind ofrecommendations would you make
to either an individual orperhaps a workplace to think
about how to integrate more ofthese acts of kindness in order
to boost wellness?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yes, so burnout is really a systemic issue.
Right, you can reframe all daylong, you can try and be
grateful all day long andpositive and not sweat the small
stuff.
But if there is just too muchpressure, there is just too much
pressure.
If there is just too much workand a normal human being cannot
get through it and that leads tobeing absent at home, cutting
(18:17):
out your workouts, cutting outyour night's sleep, an amount of
stress that is undue to yourbrain and body.
I mean, there is only so muchyou can do about burnout as an
individual.
But when the whole culturestarts to become kinder, right,
then it makes a difference.
Suddenly you don't have to go toall of these other meetings
that are not really yourexpertise but you have to be
(18:39):
part of, just to see why.
Right, suddenly it is possibleto say to someone with a little
bit more confidence I am justdrowning right now.
Can I get this back to you intwo weeks instead of in three
days?
Suddenly it is possible to goto your manager and say I have a
little too much, I'm stressedout.
Can I get some help?
Can we hire some external helpfor the next two weeks, the next
(19:03):
month?
Can I step out of thiscommittee?
And now?
You don't fear of retribution,you don't fear for your career
trajectory, because people havethat compassion, they have that
understanding, they want you tobe at your best.
They don't want you to justcheck the box and be there.
They want you to perform welland they understand that.
For that to happen, you need tohave a little bit more
(19:25):
flexibility, a little bit morepsychological safety, a little
bit more ability to rest inbetween pushes at work.
So it really needs to beapplied at the organizational
level for it to have an impacton burnout rates.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I love this and we always run out of time but I
like to talk.
So my, my, my final thing andI'm so glad that you came onto
the show and it's um reminded methat when I was in a training
for something and they were,they were they used the phrase
microaggressions.
You know, people just kind ofdoing these little little little
nasty tidbits here and there,and it gave me the idea of what
(19:59):
do you think aboutmicro-kindnesses and how could
people try them, Like what's afew micro-kindnesses someone
could just kind of check?
Speaker 4 (20:07):
out.
Michael, I was thinking theexact same thing, because, we
are.
We obviously have been workingtogether for a long time.
Micro-kindnesses Sorry, MJ.
What would you say to that?
I was literally thinking theexact same thing.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
I I mean micro.
The more you can infuse yourpersonality with kindness, the
better the results, right?
I don't really love the randomacts of kindness campaigns,
because, sure, it's good, but wedon't want kindness to be
random, we want it to be routine, right?
So all of the micro kindnesses,starting with receiving
(20:40):
kindness a little bit morewillingly, right?
Just more civility, like yousaid, people holding the door
for me I thought that was sokind.
Is it really kindness or is itjust pure civility?
Right, but it's an entry point,it is something, it is a step
in the right direction.
So, all of these little things,a little bit more of the thank
yous, the pleases I appreciatethat, right, using the language
(21:03):
that we have learned as kids weshouldn't be using all the time
and that as grownups we'rerushing and we forget about them
.
Right?
All of these little things theydo add up, but their power is
in transforming how you viewyourself, right?
If you just do them just to sayoh yeah, I said please, I said
(21:24):
thank you and I held the doortoday, I'm good, it won't do
much.
But if you see yourself as I amsomeone who never misses a
chance to say thank you, I amsomeone who appreciates other
people and it shows in such andsuch ways, right, you make it
more part of your identity, thenthat's when it's really
powerful.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
I love that.
Mj, thank you so much for beingon the show.
What, what?
I'm going to leave anyone who'sstill feeling a little bit
skeptical.
The other day, daniel Pinkshared a little bit of research
that people who were kind lookphysically more attractive to
other people.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
So there's another reason to check it out.
Thank you so much for joiningus today, mj, and we'd love to
have you back and talk a littlebit more about kindness, thank
you so much.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Thank you, MJ.
This was a wonderfulconversation.
Thank you for having me, guys.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
This was super fun.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
We hope you've enjoyed this episode.
If you'd like to hear futureepisodes, be sure to subscribe
to the Happy at Work podcast andleave us a review with your
thoughts.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Are you interested in speaking on a future episode or
want to collaborate with us?
Let us know.
You can send us an email atadmin at happyatworkpodcastcom.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
And lastly, follow us on LinkedIn or Twitter for even
more happiness.
See you soon.
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