October 10, 2024 • 29 mins
In this episode, we explore the intersection of kindness and productivity in the workplace with author and entrepreneur Graham Allcott. Graham shares insights from his upcoming book "Kind: The Quiet Power of Kindness at Work" and discusses how kindness, empathy, and trust can lead to increased productivity, creativity, and overall success in business.
In This Episode, You'll Learn:
- The difference between kindness and niceness in the workplace
- How kindness can improve productivity, creativity, and team resilience
- The concept of the "Mother Teresa effect" and its impact on workplace behavior
- Practical ways to incorporate kindness into your daily work life
Practical Takeaway:
Experiment with the "Eight Principles of Kindfulness at Work" mentioned by Graham, starting with "Kindness Starts with You." Practice self-kindness and then extend that kindness to your colleagues by slowing down, listening deeply, and giving others your fullest attention.
Resources Mentioned:
- "Kind: The Quiet Power of Kindness at Work" - link
- "How to be a Productivity Ninja" - link
- Graham's weekly email: "Rev up for the Week" - link
Connect With Our Guest:
To stay connected and continue the conversation, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.
And don't forget to check out our previous episodes for more tips and strategies to boost your workplace happiness. You can find them on your favorite podcast platform or on our website.
If you have any questions, comments, or topic suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you!
Stay inspired, stay motivated, and stay happy at work!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura Hamill (00:06):
Music, welcome back for another episode of the
happy at work podcast with LauraTessa and Michael.
Tessa Misiaszek (00:14):
Each week, we have thoughtful conversations
with leaders, founders andauthors about happiness at work.
Michael McCarthy (00:22):
Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation.
Enjoy the show.
Welcome to the happy at workPodcast. I'm Michael McCarthy,
and I'm excited to welcome ourguests from the UK. Graham
(00:46):
Alcott, author and entrepreneur,Graham, welcome to the show.
Graham Allcott (00:50):
Thank you.
Lovely to be here.
Michael McCarthy (00:52):
So Graham, just to introduce yourself to
our audience, could you let usknow what you're currently doing
and what was your career journeythat got you to where you are
today?
Graham Allcott (01:04):
Yeah, so I am a speaker and author and
entrepreneur. The latest thingthat I'm talking about is what
you see in the background here.
So this is a new book that'scoming out called kind, the
quiet power of kindness at work.
And it's sort of four or fiveyears, really, of work on
researching the links betweenkindness, empathy, trust,
(01:28):
psychological safety, and howthose things really affect us in
the work that we do. And thebackground story to that is, I
have a company called Thinkproductive. We're in the UK.
We're also in North America,Western Europe, in the Emirates
and in Australia as well. Andwe're all about helping people
to do their best work. So wewere born out of a book I did
(01:51):
coming up 10 years ago now,called How to be a productivity
ninja, which has been a globalbestseller. And yeah, really the
kindness work that I'm engagedin now really came out of that
work on productivity. So that'sbeen the journey before that. I
worked in charities, set up acouple of things, and, yeah, the
(02:12):
business that I have now isreally my sort of main pursuit,
really, is going into companiesworking in that B to be kind of
way, you know, keynote talks,workshops, that kind of thing.
You know, it's, it's
Michael McCarthy (02:25):
interesting that you talk about your book
productivity ninja. And I cancertainly understand why I would
be a best seller. Becauseeveryone wants to, you know,
squeeze the dime out of thenickel, if you can do it. And
I'm curious, what did you startto notice about the intersection
of kindness in the workplace andits impact on productivity? Is
(02:48):
there a relationship? Yeah,
Graham Allcott (02:50):
there's, there's a relationship in in both
directions, depending on whereyou start from. So the the idea
for the book came out of medoing a keynote to an investment
bank in Rome, and I'd given thisone hour presentation all about
productivity, people werenodding a lot. It seemed to be
going really well. And then atthe end of the session, I got
(03:11):
into the Q and A and someonesaid, Graham, that's all really
interesting. We getproductivity, but you're also an
entrepreneur. What's the thingthat you've not told us in the
productivity session that hasbeen your secret to success. And
the first words out of my mouthvery instinctively were
kindness. Feels everything. Ifyou're kind, you win, simple as
(03:32):
that. And it kind of launchedinto this very divided room
where about 10% of the room hadthis real bristling reaction to
it, where it was, hang on. Whatabout Elon Musk and Donald Trump
and Steve Jobs and like, surelythe bad guys win, and then lots
of other people are on my side.
So it was like this pitch battlebetween team kind and team,
(03:54):
screw them all and be evil.
Yeah. And I think what I learnedfrom that was there is a very
strong correlation, certainlyfor me, in the way I've built
teams over the years, is thatwhen you have more empathy, when
you have more trust, you know, Isee those things trust
particularly, I see as somethingthat eliminates due diligence.
(04:15):
So when you have trust, you canact quickly. You don't have to
be sussing out every singledecision and kind of feeling
around everything. So once youhave trust, everything gets
quicker because you don't havethe due diligence. And so I see
kindness as definitely somethingthat that does push
productivity, because it bondsteams and it brings people to a
place where they're able to dobetter work. And then, yeah,
(04:38):
it's just been, even thoughwe've been, I've been talking
productivity for many years.
I've always done it from amindset of kindness. You know,
the first words in how to be aproductivity ninja are dear
human being. And the wholepurpose of that was to say,
let's not treat this as How can,how can we squeeze, you know
that that last bit of value out?
(04:58):
Let's start from a place. Of weneed humans to have a sense of
well being, to be to be workingin a way that's sustainable,
rather than working in a waywhere they're going to burn
themselves out. So I kind offeel like there's a really nice
sort of overlap between thetopics and an interplay between
the topics. But then I think alot of people do see them as
(05:19):
quite adversary, or quite, um,you know, or like it like, it's
a huge shift from from myprevious work. So, yeah, it's an
interesting it's an interestingquestion. I think that so
Michael McCarthy (05:30):
for the people who are listening to the podcast
now and are like, Oh my God,these two guys are, like,
hugging trees and, like, reallygetting along. What would you
say to those who feel thatkindness is weakness, and if
you're too kind at work, it'sall going to fall apart or bad
(05:50):
things will happen. What areyour thoughts on that?
Graham Allcott (05:53):
Yeah, so kindness gets confused with
weakness. It gets confused withbeing soft. And I think, I think
the thing with that is, thepeople who accuse, the people
who say kindness is weakness,they are slightly confused. What
they're really talking about isniceness. And there's a big
difference between nice andkind, right? So the way I the
(06:15):
way I put it, is nice is tellingpeople what they want to hear,
and kind is telling people whatthey need to hear, and so I
think of kindness as being aboutthe marriage of truth and grace,
and you need truth at work,right? You need to have a
conversation when someone isunderperforming. You need to
have a conversation where youlike need that feedback, because
(06:38):
the presentation you've justdone wasn't up to scratch, and
it needs to be improved. We needtruth at work, and truth, often,
the truth that cuts through isthe stuff that, you know, really
ups our game, challenges us tohelp us, helps us to perform
better. But how do you deliverthat? You can't deliver that
truth without grace. Otherwiseyou get into a place of, you
(06:59):
know, quite toxic teams quitequickly, because everyone's just
falling back on themselves andjust not looking out for the
care of teammates. So the way Isee it is like, yeah, if you
have a completely nice culturethat shirks the truth and shies
away from the truth, then thatcan be quite weak quite quickly,
and it will definitely fall downwhen times are hard, but if
(07:21):
you've built trust up, and thenyou can deliver truth with
grace, then you have the abilityto be much more resilient, I
think. And I actually thinkthat's quite, you know, people
think of kindness as soft. Ithink that's quite badass,
right? To have a really strong,resilient culture, and to be
able to have relationships atwork where you can really call
stuff out, where you can really,like, you know, stand up to
(07:43):
truth and embrace truth, butknowing that you're doing that
for the other person, I justthink that's like, it's actually
a really difficult skill set tomaster, and one that inevitably,
I think, leads to a lot ofsuccess.
Michael McCarthy (07:55):
I have a case study for you, and I'd love you
to interrupt. I'll just tell youwhat happened and how I felt. So
I was recently in Buenos Airesfor three weeks learning
Spanish, because I want to teachin Spanish. And the day before
in our class, a new student camein, a woman about my age from
Holland, clearly a businessperson, and her Spanish was
(08:16):
really, really easy tounderstand. So I and I just sort
of resonated with her, and wewere doing these team exercises.
She's at the other table, andI'm at my with my partner. She's
with hers, and I'm an American.
I'm loud, high ceilings, nocarpet, and so I was loud, and I
didn't know I was loud because Iwas too busy talking being an
American. And she says, sheleans over, and I'm gonna say
(08:39):
not nicely, but kindly. She saiddear, dear, wonderful co
student, I'm so glad you're inthe class, but I can't hear, is
it possible that you would justturn down the volume? I would so
appreciate that. And I thoughtthat was the nicest way she
(08:59):
could have done it. I mean, shecouldn't have done it any nicer.
And I thought, I know I'm loud.
I've been loud since I was born.
I get it, and I'm unaware of itsometimes. And I thought that
was the nicest way. So I I gotquiet. But then later, during
the break, she was in the roomon the phone, and again, the
acoustics were really loud, andtwo people in the room on break
(09:22):
were talking pretty loudly, andI saw her put her finger in her
ear so she could hear. I went tothose two and I said, Could you
speak a little softer? She's onthe phone, and I think she's
having some trouble hearing.
Then another person came in andwas loudly to me because it was
break time. Oh, what are youdoing for lunch? And I said,
(09:43):
she's on the phone. It's likeshe enrolled me to like, do
these two extra things. And I'mcurious, how would you interpret
like, what would you say aboutWow.
Graham Allcott (09:55):
I mean, do you so? Do you feel like at the end
of that you. You were you, youwere kind of manipulated into
changing the the societal rulesof that space, in terms of, we,
like you, should have been leaveliving with a bit more volume,
and that, that first thing ledyou to behave in a different
(10:15):
way.
Michael McCarthy (10:15):
Instead of, I would agree with everything, I
would just switch the wordmanipulated. It. It was
voluntary. I was appreciativethat she said it so nicely. And
I'm pretty sensitive. It'sreally easy to, like, hurt my
feelings. So I thought that wasI was so appreciated that she
was so kind about it, that Iknew that she's sensitive to
(10:36):
loud noises, and the room waspretty bad for noise. Yeah, she
kind of enrolled me withoutasking, like, almost to, like,
pay her back, to say thank youfor being so nice about it. I
helped her out twice by tellingtwo other groups to be quiet,
yeah, and it was like sheenrolled me.
Graham Allcott (10:53):
Well, there's a there is a thing that I've
written about in the book calledThe Mother Teresa effect. And
basically the Mother Teresaeffect is when and this so the
study was they showed people asort of 40, I think it's 40
minute video, like showedstudents his 40 minute video of
(11:13):
Mother Teresa doing kind acts.
And what they got from it wasthe stress relieving chemicals,
which is called salivaryimmunoglobin, in your mouth, you
have much higher levels of thosestress relieving chemicals in
your mouth just by watchingMother Teresa do kind things,
but it's the same response asyou get when you do something
kind for somebody else. So interms of the ripple effect of
(11:36):
kindness, you are more likely tobe kind if you've just been
kind. You're more likely to bekind if someone's just been kind
to you, and you're also morelikely to be kind if you've just
witnessed other people beingkind. So in all of those
scenarios, you've got this, thislovely ripple effect that's
happening where, when you putkindness into a space, you know
you are, you are changing theexpectations about where
(11:59):
kindness is next going to come,and you're giving everybody else
that permission to be kinder. SoI would look at that and say,
you know, what a lovely exampleof that sort of knock on effect,
as long as you were feeling okayabout the fact that the rules
have changed a little bit,because it sounds like they
changed for the better, everyonewas being a bit more
considerate, everyone was beinga bit more empathetic to each
other's needs. And I just thinkthat's a really good example of
(12:20):
if you, if you take that littlemicrocosm into a team and say,
now you've got a team that'slooking out for each other and
looking after each other. Andthat sounds, sounds amazing.
Michael McCarthy (12:32):
What I found interesting about Christine, and
she's from Holland, was therewas the she had this really
interesting I kind of call itquiet steel, like leadership,
quality of strength. But it'snot aggressive. It's not out
there. They don't even speak.
It's almost just like a postureof, I'm standing tall, and I'm,
(12:53):
you know, my shoulders are back,and there's just sort of this
aura of, I have power. I am aleader, but I'm not a jerk, and
I'm not aggressive and don'tplay with me like nothing is
said. Some people just have thataura, and she had it along with
kindness, but I never saw it asweakness. I felt like I wanted
(13:16):
to work for her. I wanted her tolead me because I liked how she
did it. And I'm curious ifyou've seen that there there are
bumps in productivity or theorganization working better when
people like the kindness andthey work better because of it.
Have you seen anything alongthose lines? Yeah.
Graham Allcott (13:39):
I mean, there's loads of studies. There was one
where they they basically hadworkers at Coca Cola in Madrid,
and they asked them to commitsix secret acts of kindness
every day. So just basically,just go around your day, just
doing kind things. And theyfound that not only did
(14:00):
productivity go up, but alsocreativity went up, and it's
quite easy to see why, right? Soif you're having to think in a
slightly different way, and howdo I empathize with with those
people over there? What do theyneed? How can I come up with
different and surprising ways tobe kind? Because I'm doing this
experiment, so suddenly you'rejust thinking slightly outside
of that status quo, that normal,you know, day to day way of
(14:24):
thinking. So there's, there'sloads of studies like that,
where, when you've got morekindness and you've got more
empathy and you have more trust,more psychological safety, you
know, it's, it's not justproductivity, actually. It's,
it's also happiness, retention,creativity, critical thinking.
There's a whole bunch of stuffthat that improves in in Kinder
environments. Yeah. So,
Michael McCarthy (14:45):
so here's a fun one for our audience. So I'm
going to ask you a quickquestion. So let's say if two
people, one person did akindness, person received the
kindness, did a kindness, I likethat. Who feels better? Yeah,
who feels better the person whoreceived the kindness or gave
the kindness?
Graham Allcott (15:06):
Well, I suppose I would. I'm not sure the answer
to that, and I one of my answersto that might be like, who cares
if both of them feel good? Youknow, I think there's often
questions that that come uparound kindness, which is like,
what's the difference betweenkindness and generosity? And,
(15:27):
you know, I think sometimes weget to philosophical about these
things when you know,fundamentally, if something good
is happening, do we? Do we needto, to compare it to something
else good. It's just good. Andso, yeah, like, I would say that
in a way, like, who cares? Iwould also say, though, that the
(15:48):
which, maybe I'm about to answeryour question actually, so it's
not to, not to be underestimatedthe power of what they call the
helpers high so the person whois giving out the kind act.
There's a whole bunch of and soagain, it's oxytocin, it's
dopamine, it's a lot of thosefeel good chemicals in the
brain. Cortisol goes down 23%there's a whole bunch of stuff
(16:12):
that when you're when you arebeing kind it's, it's seen as
very, very good for your mentalhealth scientifically. So, you
know, I would say that from fromthat perspective, you don't need
to wait for someone else to bekind to you go out and do kind
things, and you will actuallyjust feel better as a result of
that. You know,
Michael McCarthy (16:29):
I love that.
I've never heard of that phrase,helpers high. But, yeah, I
totally get it. I teach mystudents do something kind for
people, and you might feelbetter than them. It's a good
feeling. And a few months ago, Ihad my first major surgery ever.
I've never had anything done,and I was handicapped for 10
days like I mean, I was straightup, crutches, handicapped, and I
(16:50):
decided, okay, I need help. AndI just put in my mindset when
anyone asks me, do I need help?
I'm just going to say yes,because I want to make them feel
good, and I also want to carrymy groceries and walk my dog. So
literally, every person thatsaid, Can I help you? I was
like, yes, even if I didn't needit. It was funny. I think a lot
(17:15):
of people don't like to ask forhelp or receive kindness, and
I'm curious if in your research,you've noticed that some people
are better at giving kindness,but they're not feeling great
about it. Receiving any thoughtson that. Well,
Graham Allcott (17:30):
let me move away from research and just be
personal. So I have a son who's10. He would there was a lot of
complications in the pregnancy.
And to cut long story short, wefound out that he has a unique
chromosomal disorder. Uniquewhen you talk about chromosomes
is a really bad thing. We liketo think of our kids as unique,
(17:52):
but unique when it comes tochromosomes is really bad
because it's like, we don't knowwhat the playbook is here, like,
how do we look after him likewhatever. So, so he's had quite
a lot of health challenges.
We've probably, I think we're at11 major surgeries now, mainly
spinal and then a couple on hiseyes and various things. He has
(18:15):
autism and developmental delay,but I tell you what he has. He's
such a gift, like he's taught memore about kindness than anyone
else, and the reason for that isthat what I see of him in day to
day life, as he moves throughthe world, he is a vessel for
everyone else's kindness. Likeas he moves through the world,
(18:36):
it attracts this this kindness.
So it's little things, like whenhe gets invited to a kid's
birthday party, I get a textfrom the mum, and it's like, how
do we make the space autismfriendly for when Roscoe comes,
you know, or just those littleyou know? Here's a photo of the
room, because I know that's areally useful autism thing. And
I think autism awareness hasreally upped a few notches in
(18:58):
the last few years. And sopeople are more aware of the
kind of things that are usefuland helpful. But I get to see
that every day. And so I think,you know, certainly for me,
before having him, I had areally hard time asking for help
with things, and I kind of haveno choice with him, right? Like,
(19:19):
a lot of the time I need help. Ineed, I need to be the person
that's filling in those formsand getting the extra place on a
on an event, or whatever. So sohe's got a personal assistant
with him, or whatever. I'm I'mkind of for him, for me to make,
to adjust the world. For himoften involves the health of
other people. And, yeah, I'vereally noticed how that not only
(19:41):
makes those people feel good,but often how it really bonds me
with that person as well. Solike, I find I get into some
really deep conversations or orthings go from being a chore to
being quite interesting becauseof that, that connection and.
Kindness that's happening. Soyeah, that's just a very
(20:01):
personal thing, but I do, I do,yeah, coming back to where you
started, I think a lot ofpeople, particularly if you're
entrepreneurial, if you've had asuccessful career, if you're
senior in an organization, youoften think that to ask for help
is a sign of weakness. But Iactually think there's, you
(20:21):
know, there's, there's a,there's a sort of shift that
I've made in the last few years,which is, I no longer think of a
sort of, you know, heightenedform of independence as being
the the sort of like the mostdeveloped form of society or
capitalism, I think of aheightened form of
(20:42):
interdependence as being reallywhat we should be aiming for,
rather than everything being soindividualistic. Like, it's when
we look at how we interact witheach other and how actually, we
can all add value to what eachother's doing, and we're greater
than some of our parts. Like,you know, that's where I think
society gets much moreinteresting than this kind of
hyper individualized competitionroute that we're that we're kind
(21:05):
of generally finding ourselves
Michael McCarthy (21:09):
in. I love that story, and I think we're
very similar in I was justraised in a culture if you don't
ask for help because it isshowing weakness. And if you are
that powerful person, you haveto keep that facade going. And
I've completely shifted the wayyou've shifted as well. I've
just done it in a different way,because I'm teaching college
(21:30):
students, I asked them for helpto empower them like I'm in
Spanish, and a lot of my kidsspeak Spanish, and I'm I'm a
baby walking in Spanish rightnow, and I just asked them these
simple things, and they're sokind about it, you know, like,
when I make a mistake, whichhappens in every sentence, you
(21:50):
know, they're really sweet aboutit, and there is no change in
respect. But I can see theystand a little taller. They're
like, I'm important, and I washelpful, and I had value, and I
helped their professor. And Ithink the knockoff effect of
everyone doing this can reallybe impactful. And if someone
who's listening now says, Youknow what, I want to take a
(22:12):
little baby step, I want to putmy feet in the water, let's say
there's a manager, or maybe adirect report that doesn't have
a lot of influence and power,what could each person do on
their own to bring a littlekindness into the organization
to see if it would work forthem?
Graham Allcott (22:29):
Okay, so in the book, there are eight principles
of kindfulness at work, andthere's sort of almost eight
different lenses, or eightdifferent ways of thinking
around kindness. Let me share acouple of them, which I think
could be really helpful. One So,so the first one of eight is
kindness. Starts with you. Ithink back to what we're just
(22:52):
talking about. People reallystruggle with this concept, but
the idea is you can't role modelkindness for other people if
you're stuck in a scarcitymindset where you're not giving
yourself kindness. So you've gotto start with you. You've got to
start with giving yourself whatyou need that is not selfish and
self indulgent. It will actuallyhelp you to be kinder to
(23:12):
everybody else. And so kind ofstarts with you. Another one, I
think, which is a reallyimportant there's a really
important relationship betweenthese two concepts, kindness and
slowness. So when you slow down,you spot opportunities to be
kinder much more quickly. Andagain, back to the self
(23:34):
kindness, you're much morelikely to be kinder to yourself
if you just slow down thatlittle bit and you know, then
you start to notice your ownemotions. You're a bit more
mindful. Start to see what youneed. You start to see what
everybody else needs. And then,I guess the third one, just in
terms of, if we think aboutwork, and we think about, what
(23:54):
do we do all day in our work?
The third one I'll share is,listen deeply. I think giving
somebody your fullest attention,which is ultimately the most
precious resource that we have,right? People say time is our
most precious resource. Weactually have a bit less of our
fullest attention than we havetime, right? So I think of our
(24:15):
fullest attention as being ourmost precious resource. So
giving someone your fullestattention is probably the most
generous thing you can do, andlistening is so commonplace in
the work that we do, but alsoone of those things that we take
for granted, because it's justwe just, we turn up to meetings,
we listen, whatever. But justthink about practicing your
(24:38):
listening skills, and thinkabout the things that you can do
to deepen the way that youlisten and how you listen. And I
think that, in itself, is notonly a really kind act, but it
will start to open up thepossibilities of and the
opportunity, opportunities to bekinder. You'll start to know.
Notice those opportunities andstart to notice where people
(25:02):
need kindness much more when youjust just deepen that sense of
listening.
Michael McCarthy (25:08):
I love, I love both of these. And what's
interesting, I like theslowness. Every year, instead of
a New Year's resolution, I havelike a theme. And so this year's
theme is savoring, where Inoticed that if I'm if I'm too
fast, yeah, no more joy inanything. I'm, you know, I'm
(25:28):
rushing, and there's, there's nomore fun. So I love the savoring
part, which is very close toslowness. And there was a quote
I did we just we taught a classyesterday, and it was about
listening that listening tosomeone deeply is very close to
feeling loved. And I think atheologian said it, but I
(25:50):
noticed when people like really,really listening to me, yeah, I
feel, I guess you could saylove, but certainly appreciated
or respected. And when I give itto other people, I've had to
work on being a better listener.
Usually I just think about abetter response, and I've really
had to work on it. And I cantell how much people really do
appreciate it when you put thephone down and you don't think
(26:13):
of a better response like youreally just lean in and just
focus on repeating somethingthat they just said, or a follow
up question based on what theyjust said, so that they know,
you know another one I do thatI'd love to share with people. I
learned this from a dean at abusiness school. If you're on
Zoom and you put your two handstogether under your chin like
(26:34):
this, everyone knows that you'relistening to them. You're not
off to the side on the phone,but, but these, these are great.
I think, I think slowing downand eliciting deeply is super
important. And we're just comingto the to the end of our time
together. And Graham, are thereany final thoughts or things
that you want to share with theaudience that you think are
(26:56):
really important, like therelease date of your new book.
Let's, let's tell people how toget a hold of it. When's it
coming out? What's the title?
Where can they get it? So
Graham Allcott (27:07):
we come out in the UK on October 10, and then
we'll be out in the US. I thinkit's January, 6 or seventh,
next. Okay? It's with Bloomsburybusiness, and it'll be on in all
as I often say, it's availablein all good bookshops and some
bad ones too, mentioning rodo,Uncle Jeff. But yeah, if you
(27:31):
want to connect with me, I dothis. I do a weekly email, which
goes out on a Sunday evening.
And the idea is one positive orproductive idea for the week
ahead. And it's free. If youwant to get on that, you just go
to Graham orcop.com and yeah,you'll see a little form on
there that you fill in. It'scalled Rev up for the week. And
so the idea is just one positivethought, to just power your week
(27:53):
on a Monday and we send it outevery Sunday for free. And so
yeah, to connect, connect withme there, reply to those emails.
And yeah, we'd love to chat
Michael McCarthy (28:02):
beautiful Graham, thank you so much for
your time. And we'd love tointerview you again about, you
know, six or 12 months after thebook has been out, just to see
what's the impact been, youknow, what have you learned?
What's really resonating withpeople? And I've really
appreciated today's conversationwith you that
Graham Allcott (28:17):
would be my pleasure. Thank you. Michael,
okay,
Michael McCarthy (28:20):
take care, everyone. Bye, bye. We hope
you've enjoyed this episode. Ifyou'd like to hear future
episodes, be sure to subscribeto the happy at work podcast and
leave us a review with yourthoughts.
Tessa Misiaszek (28:35):
Are you interested in speaking on a
future episode, or want tocollaborate with us? Let us
know. You can send us an emailat admin, at happy, at work,
podcast.com,
Laura Hamill (28:46):
and lastly, follow us on LinkedIn or Twitter for
even more happiness. See yousoon. You.
Music, welcome back for another episode of the
happy at work podcast with LauraTessa and Michael.
Tessa Misiaszek (00:14):
Each week, we have thoughtful conversations
with leaders, founders andauthors about happiness at work.
Michael McCarthy (00:22):
Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation.
Enjoy the show.
Welcome to the happy at workPodcast. I'm Michael McCarthy,
and I'm excited to welcome ourguests from the UK. Graham
(00:46):
Alcott, author and entrepreneur,Graham, welcome to the show.
Graham Allcott (00:50):
Thank you.
Lovely to be here.
Michael McCarthy (00:52):
So Graham, just to introduce yourself to
our audience, could you let usknow what you're currently doing
and what was your career journeythat got you to where you are
today?
Graham Allcott (01:04):
Yeah, so I am a speaker and author and
entrepreneur. The latest thingthat I'm talking about is what
you see in the background here.
So this is a new book that'scoming out called kind, the
quiet power of kindness at work.
And it's sort of four or fiveyears, really, of work on
researching the links betweenkindness, empathy, trust,
(01:28):
psychological safety, and howthose things really affect us in
the work that we do. And thebackground story to that is, I
have a company called Thinkproductive. We're in the UK.
We're also in North America,Western Europe, in the Emirates
and in Australia as well. Andwe're all about helping people
to do their best work. So wewere born out of a book I did
(01:51):
coming up 10 years ago now,called How to be a productivity
ninja, which has been a globalbestseller. And yeah, really the
kindness work that I'm engagedin now really came out of that
work on productivity. So that'sbeen the journey before that. I
worked in charities, set up acouple of things, and, yeah, the
(02:12):
business that I have now isreally my sort of main pursuit,
really, is going into companiesworking in that B to be kind of
way, you know, keynote talks,workshops, that kind of thing.
You know, it's, it's
Michael McCarthy (02:25):
interesting that you talk about your book
productivity ninja. And I cancertainly understand why I would
be a best seller. Becauseeveryone wants to, you know,
squeeze the dime out of thenickel, if you can do it. And
I'm curious, what did you startto notice about the intersection
of kindness in the workplace andits impact on productivity? Is
(02:48):
there a relationship? Yeah,
Graham Allcott (02:50):
there's, there's a relationship in in both
directions, depending on whereyou start from. So the the idea
for the book came out of medoing a keynote to an investment
bank in Rome, and I'd given thisone hour presentation all about
productivity, people werenodding a lot. It seemed to be
going really well. And then atthe end of the session, I got
(03:11):
into the Q and A and someonesaid, Graham, that's all really
interesting. We getproductivity, but you're also an
entrepreneur. What's the thingthat you've not told us in the
productivity session that hasbeen your secret to success. And
the first words out of my mouthvery instinctively were
kindness. Feels everything. Ifyou're kind, you win, simple as
(03:32):
that. And it kind of launchedinto this very divided room
where about 10% of the room hadthis real bristling reaction to
it, where it was, hang on. Whatabout Elon Musk and Donald Trump
and Steve Jobs and like, surelythe bad guys win, and then lots
of other people are on my side.
So it was like this pitch battlebetween team kind and team,
(03:54):
screw them all and be evil.
Yeah. And I think what I learnedfrom that was there is a very
strong correlation, certainlyfor me, in the way I've built
teams over the years, is thatwhen you have more empathy, when
you have more trust, you know, Isee those things trust
particularly, I see as somethingthat eliminates due diligence.
(04:15):
So when you have trust, you canact quickly. You don't have to
be sussing out every singledecision and kind of feeling
around everything. So once youhave trust, everything gets
quicker because you don't havethe due diligence. And so I see
kindness as definitely somethingthat that does push
productivity, because it bondsteams and it brings people to a
place where they're able to dobetter work. And then, yeah,
(04:38):
it's just been, even thoughwe've been, I've been talking
productivity for many years.
I've always done it from amindset of kindness. You know,
the first words in how to be aproductivity ninja are dear
human being. And the wholepurpose of that was to say,
let's not treat this as How can,how can we squeeze, you know
that that last bit of value out?
(04:58):
Let's start from a place. Of weneed humans to have a sense of
well being, to be to be workingin a way that's sustainable,
rather than working in a waywhere they're going to burn
themselves out. So I kind offeel like there's a really nice
sort of overlap between thetopics and an interplay between
the topics. But then I think alot of people do see them as
(05:19):
quite adversary, or quite, um,you know, or like it like, it's
a huge shift from from myprevious work. So, yeah, it's an
interesting it's an interestingquestion. I think that so
Michael McCarthy (05:30):
for the people who are listening to the podcast
now and are like, Oh my God,these two guys are, like,
hugging trees and, like, reallygetting along. What would you
say to those who feel thatkindness is weakness, and if
you're too kind at work, it'sall going to fall apart or bad
(05:50):
things will happen. What areyour thoughts on that?
Graham Allcott (05:53):
Yeah, so kindness gets confused with
weakness. It gets confused withbeing soft. And I think, I think
the thing with that is, thepeople who accuse, the people
who say kindness is weakness,they are slightly confused. What
they're really talking about isniceness. And there's a big
difference between nice andkind, right? So the way I the
(06:15):
way I put it, is nice is tellingpeople what they want to hear,
and kind is telling people whatthey need to hear, and so I
think of kindness as being aboutthe marriage of truth and grace,
and you need truth at work,right? You need to have a
conversation when someone isunderperforming. You need to
have a conversation where youlike need that feedback, because
(06:38):
the presentation you've justdone wasn't up to scratch, and
it needs to be improved. We needtruth at work, and truth, often,
the truth that cuts through isthe stuff that, you know, really
ups our game, challenges us tohelp us, helps us to perform
better. But how do you deliverthat? You can't deliver that
truth without grace. Otherwiseyou get into a place of, you
(06:59):
know, quite toxic teams quitequickly, because everyone's just
falling back on themselves andjust not looking out for the
care of teammates. So the way Isee it is like, yeah, if you
have a completely nice culturethat shirks the truth and shies
away from the truth, then thatcan be quite weak quite quickly,
and it will definitely fall downwhen times are hard, but if
(07:21):
you've built trust up, and thenyou can deliver truth with
grace, then you have the abilityto be much more resilient, I
think. And I actually thinkthat's quite, you know, people
think of kindness as soft. Ithink that's quite badass,
right? To have a really strong,resilient culture, and to be
able to have relationships atwork where you can really call
stuff out, where you can really,like, you know, stand up to
(07:43):
truth and embrace truth, butknowing that you're doing that
for the other person, I justthink that's like, it's actually
a really difficult skill set tomaster, and one that inevitably,
I think, leads to a lot ofsuccess.
Michael McCarthy (07:55):
I have a case study for you, and I'd love you
to interrupt. I'll just tell youwhat happened and how I felt. So
I was recently in Buenos Airesfor three weeks learning
Spanish, because I want to teachin Spanish. And the day before
in our class, a new student camein, a woman about my age from
Holland, clearly a businessperson, and her Spanish was
(08:16):
really, really easy tounderstand. So I and I just sort
of resonated with her, and wewere doing these team exercises.
She's at the other table, andI'm at my with my partner. She's
with hers, and I'm an American.
I'm loud, high ceilings, nocarpet, and so I was loud, and I
didn't know I was loud because Iwas too busy talking being an
American. And she says, sheleans over, and I'm gonna say
(08:39):
not nicely, but kindly. She saiddear, dear, wonderful co
student, I'm so glad you're inthe class, but I can't hear, is
it possible that you would justturn down the volume? I would so
appreciate that. And I thoughtthat was the nicest way she
(08:59):
could have done it. I mean, shecouldn't have done it any nicer.
And I thought, I know I'm loud.
I've been loud since I was born.
I get it, and I'm unaware of itsometimes. And I thought that
was the nicest way. So I I gotquiet. But then later, during
the break, she was in the roomon the phone, and again, the
acoustics were really loud, andtwo people in the room on break
(09:22):
were talking pretty loudly, andI saw her put her finger in her
ear so she could hear. I went tothose two and I said, Could you
speak a little softer? She's onthe phone, and I think she's
having some trouble hearing.
Then another person came in andwas loudly to me because it was
break time. Oh, what are youdoing for lunch? And I said,
(09:43):
she's on the phone. It's likeshe enrolled me to like, do
these two extra things. And I'mcurious, how would you interpret
like, what would you say aboutWow.
Graham Allcott (09:55):
I mean, do you so? Do you feel like at the end
of that you. You were you, youwere kind of manipulated into
changing the the societal rulesof that space, in terms of, we,
like you, should have been leaveliving with a bit more volume,
and that, that first thing ledyou to behave in a different
(10:15):
way.
Michael McCarthy (10:15):
Instead of, I would agree with everything, I
would just switch the wordmanipulated. It. It was
voluntary. I was appreciativethat she said it so nicely. And
I'm pretty sensitive. It'sreally easy to, like, hurt my
feelings. So I thought that wasI was so appreciated that she
was so kind about it, that Iknew that she's sensitive to
(10:36):
loud noises, and the room waspretty bad for noise. Yeah, she
kind of enrolled me withoutasking, like, almost to, like,
pay her back, to say thank youfor being so nice about it. I
helped her out twice by tellingtwo other groups to be quiet,
yeah, and it was like sheenrolled me.
Graham Allcott (10:53):
Well, there's a there is a thing that I've
written about in the book calledThe Mother Teresa effect. And
basically the Mother Teresaeffect is when and this so the
study was they showed people asort of 40, I think it's 40
minute video, like showedstudents his 40 minute video of
(11:13):
Mother Teresa doing kind acts.
And what they got from it wasthe stress relieving chemicals,
which is called salivaryimmunoglobin, in your mouth, you
have much higher levels of thosestress relieving chemicals in
your mouth just by watchingMother Teresa do kind things,
but it's the same response asyou get when you do something
kind for somebody else. So interms of the ripple effect of
(11:36):
kindness, you are more likely tobe kind if you've just been
kind. You're more likely to bekind if someone's just been kind
to you, and you're also morelikely to be kind if you've just
witnessed other people beingkind. So in all of those
scenarios, you've got this, thislovely ripple effect that's
happening where, when you putkindness into a space, you know
you are, you are changing theexpectations about where
(11:59):
kindness is next going to come,and you're giving everybody else
that permission to be kinder. SoI would look at that and say,
you know, what a lovely exampleof that sort of knock on effect,
as long as you were feeling okayabout the fact that the rules
have changed a little bit,because it sounds like they
changed for the better, everyonewas being a bit more
considerate, everyone was beinga bit more empathetic to each
other's needs. And I just thinkthat's a really good example of
(12:20):
if you, if you take that littlemicrocosm into a team and say,
now you've got a team that'slooking out for each other and
looking after each other. Andthat sounds, sounds amazing.
Michael McCarthy (12:32):
What I found interesting about Christine, and
she's from Holland, was therewas the she had this really
interesting I kind of call itquiet steel, like leadership,
quality of strength. But it'snot aggressive. It's not out
there. They don't even speak.
It's almost just like a postureof, I'm standing tall, and I'm,
(12:53):
you know, my shoulders are back,and there's just sort of this
aura of, I have power. I am aleader, but I'm not a jerk, and
I'm not aggressive and don'tplay with me like nothing is
said. Some people just have thataura, and she had it along with
kindness, but I never saw it asweakness. I felt like I wanted
(13:16):
to work for her. I wanted her tolead me because I liked how she
did it. And I'm curious ifyou've seen that there there are
bumps in productivity or theorganization working better when
people like the kindness andthey work better because of it.
Have you seen anything alongthose lines? Yeah.
Graham Allcott (13:39):
I mean, there's loads of studies. There was one
where they they basically hadworkers at Coca Cola in Madrid,
and they asked them to commitsix secret acts of kindness
every day. So just basically,just go around your day, just
doing kind things. And theyfound that not only did
(14:00):
productivity go up, but alsocreativity went up, and it's
quite easy to see why, right? Soif you're having to think in a
slightly different way, and howdo I empathize with with those
people over there? What do theyneed? How can I come up with
different and surprising ways tobe kind? Because I'm doing this
experiment, so suddenly you'rejust thinking slightly outside
of that status quo, that normal,you know, day to day way of
(14:24):
thinking. So there's, there'sloads of studies like that,
where, when you've got morekindness and you've got more
empathy and you have more trust,more psychological safety, you
know, it's, it's not justproductivity, actually. It's,
it's also happiness, retention,creativity, critical thinking.
There's a whole bunch of stuffthat that improves in in Kinder
environments. Yeah. So,
Michael McCarthy (14:45):
so here's a fun one for our audience. So I'm
going to ask you a quickquestion. So let's say if two
people, one person did akindness, person received the
kindness, did a kindness, I likethat. Who feels better? Yeah,
who feels better the person whoreceived the kindness or gave
the kindness?
Graham Allcott (15:06):
Well, I suppose I would. I'm not sure the answer
to that, and I one of my answersto that might be like, who cares
if both of them feel good? Youknow, I think there's often
questions that that come uparound kindness, which is like,
what's the difference betweenkindness and generosity? And,
(15:27):
you know, I think sometimes weget to philosophical about these
things when you know,fundamentally, if something good
is happening, do we? Do we needto, to compare it to something
else good. It's just good. Andso, yeah, like, I would say that
in a way, like, who cares? Iwould also say, though, that the
(15:48):
which, maybe I'm about to answeryour question actually, so it's
not to, not to be underestimatedthe power of what they call the
helpers high so the person whois giving out the kind act.
There's a whole bunch of and soagain, it's oxytocin, it's
dopamine, it's a lot of thosefeel good chemicals in the
brain. Cortisol goes down 23%there's a whole bunch of stuff
(16:12):
that when you're when you arebeing kind it's, it's seen as
very, very good for your mentalhealth scientifically. So, you
know, I would say that from fromthat perspective, you don't need
to wait for someone else to bekind to you go out and do kind
things, and you will actuallyjust feel better as a result of
that. You know,
Michael McCarthy (16:29):
I love that.
I've never heard of that phrase,helpers high. But, yeah, I
totally get it. I teach mystudents do something kind for
people, and you might feelbetter than them. It's a good
feeling. And a few months ago, Ihad my first major surgery ever.
I've never had anything done,and I was handicapped for 10
days like I mean, I was straightup, crutches, handicapped, and I
(16:50):
decided, okay, I need help. AndI just put in my mindset when
anyone asks me, do I need help?
I'm just going to say yes,because I want to make them feel
good, and I also want to carrymy groceries and walk my dog. So
literally, every person thatsaid, Can I help you? I was
like, yes, even if I didn't needit. It was funny. I think a lot
(17:15):
of people don't like to ask forhelp or receive kindness, and
I'm curious if in your research,you've noticed that some people
are better at giving kindness,but they're not feeling great
about it. Receiving any thoughtson that. Well,
Graham Allcott (17:30):
let me move away from research and just be
personal. So I have a son who's10. He would there was a lot of
complications in the pregnancy.
And to cut long story short, wefound out that he has a unique
chromosomal disorder. Uniquewhen you talk about chromosomes
is a really bad thing. We liketo think of our kids as unique,
(17:52):
but unique when it comes tochromosomes is really bad
because it's like, we don't knowwhat the playbook is here, like,
how do we look after him likewhatever. So, so he's had quite
a lot of health challenges.
We've probably, I think we're at11 major surgeries now, mainly
spinal and then a couple on hiseyes and various things. He has
(18:15):
autism and developmental delay,but I tell you what he has. He's
such a gift, like he's taught memore about kindness than anyone
else, and the reason for that isthat what I see of him in day to
day life, as he moves throughthe world, he is a vessel for
everyone else's kindness. Likeas he moves through the world,
(18:36):
it attracts this this kindness.
So it's little things, like whenhe gets invited to a kid's
birthday party, I get a textfrom the mum, and it's like, how
do we make the space autismfriendly for when Roscoe comes,
you know, or just those littleyou know? Here's a photo of the
room, because I know that's areally useful autism thing. And
I think autism awareness hasreally upped a few notches in
(18:58):
the last few years. And sopeople are more aware of the
kind of things that are usefuland helpful. But I get to see
that every day. And so I think,you know, certainly for me,
before having him, I had areally hard time asking for help
with things, and I kind of haveno choice with him, right? Like,
(19:19):
a lot of the time I need help. Ineed, I need to be the person
that's filling in those formsand getting the extra place on a
on an event, or whatever. So sohe's got a personal assistant
with him, or whatever. I'm I'mkind of for him, for me to make,
to adjust the world. For himoften involves the health of
other people. And, yeah, I'vereally noticed how that not only
(19:41):
makes those people feel good,but often how it really bonds me
with that person as well. Solike, I find I get into some
really deep conversations or orthings go from being a chore to
being quite interesting becauseof that, that connection and.
Kindness that's happening. Soyeah, that's just a very
(20:01):
personal thing, but I do, I do,yeah, coming back to where you
started, I think a lot ofpeople, particularly if you're
entrepreneurial, if you've had asuccessful career, if you're
senior in an organization, youoften think that to ask for help
is a sign of weakness. But Iactually think there's, you
(20:21):
know, there's, there's a,there's a sort of shift that
I've made in the last few years,which is, I no longer think of a
sort of, you know, heightenedform of independence as being
the the sort of like the mostdeveloped form of society or
capitalism, I think of aheightened form of
(20:42):
interdependence as being reallywhat we should be aiming for,
rather than everything being soindividualistic. Like, it's when
we look at how we interact witheach other and how actually, we
can all add value to what eachother's doing, and we're greater
than some of our parts. Like,you know, that's where I think
society gets much moreinteresting than this kind of
hyper individualized competitionroute that we're that we're kind
(21:05):
of generally finding ourselves
Michael McCarthy (21:09):
in. I love that story, and I think we're
very similar in I was justraised in a culture if you don't
ask for help because it isshowing weakness. And if you are
that powerful person, you haveto keep that facade going. And
I've completely shifted the wayyou've shifted as well. I've
just done it in a different way,because I'm teaching college
(21:30):
students, I asked them for helpto empower them like I'm in
Spanish, and a lot of my kidsspeak Spanish, and I'm I'm a
baby walking in Spanish rightnow, and I just asked them these
simple things, and they're sokind about it, you know, like,
when I make a mistake, whichhappens in every sentence, you
(21:50):
know, they're really sweet aboutit, and there is no change in
respect. But I can see theystand a little taller. They're
like, I'm important, and I washelpful, and I had value, and I
helped their professor. And Ithink the knockoff effect of
everyone doing this can reallybe impactful. And if someone
who's listening now says, Youknow what, I want to take a
(22:12):
little baby step, I want to putmy feet in the water, let's say
there's a manager, or maybe adirect report that doesn't have
a lot of influence and power,what could each person do on
their own to bring a littlekindness into the organization
to see if it would work forthem?
Graham Allcott (22:29):
Okay, so in the book, there are eight principles
of kindfulness at work, andthere's sort of almost eight
different lenses, or eightdifferent ways of thinking
around kindness. Let me share acouple of them, which I think
could be really helpful. One So,so the first one of eight is
kindness. Starts with you. Ithink back to what we're just
(22:52):
talking about. People reallystruggle with this concept, but
the idea is you can't role modelkindness for other people if
you're stuck in a scarcitymindset where you're not giving
yourself kindness. So you've gotto start with you. You've got to
start with giving yourself whatyou need that is not selfish and
self indulgent. It will actuallyhelp you to be kinder to
(23:12):
everybody else. And so kind ofstarts with you. Another one, I
think, which is a reallyimportant there's a really
important relationship betweenthese two concepts, kindness and
slowness. So when you slow down,you spot opportunities to be
kinder much more quickly. Andagain, back to the self
(23:34):
kindness, you're much morelikely to be kinder to yourself
if you just slow down thatlittle bit and you know, then
you start to notice your ownemotions. You're a bit more
mindful. Start to see what youneed. You start to see what
everybody else needs. And then,I guess the third one, just in
terms of, if we think aboutwork, and we think about, what
(23:54):
do we do all day in our work?
The third one I'll share is,listen deeply. I think giving
somebody your fullest attention,which is ultimately the most
precious resource that we have,right? People say time is our
most precious resource. Weactually have a bit less of our
fullest attention than we havetime, right? So I think of our
(24:15):
fullest attention as being ourmost precious resource. So
giving someone your fullestattention is probably the most
generous thing you can do, andlistening is so commonplace in
the work that we do, but alsoone of those things that we take
for granted, because it's justwe just, we turn up to meetings,
we listen, whatever. But justthink about practicing your
(24:38):
listening skills, and thinkabout the things that you can do
to deepen the way that youlisten and how you listen. And I
think that, in itself, is notonly a really kind act, but it
will start to open up thepossibilities of and the
opportunity, opportunities to bekinder. You'll start to know.
Notice those opportunities andstart to notice where people
(25:02):
need kindness much more when youjust just deepen that sense of
listening.
Michael McCarthy (25:08):
I love, I love both of these. And what's
interesting, I like theslowness. Every year, instead of
a New Year's resolution, I havelike a theme. And so this year's
theme is savoring, where Inoticed that if I'm if I'm too
fast, yeah, no more joy inanything. I'm, you know, I'm
(25:28):
rushing, and there's, there's nomore fun. So I love the savoring
part, which is very close toslowness. And there was a quote
I did we just we taught a classyesterday, and it was about
listening that listening tosomeone deeply is very close to
feeling loved. And I think atheologian said it, but I
(25:50):
noticed when people like really,really listening to me, yeah, I
feel, I guess you could saylove, but certainly appreciated
or respected. And when I give itto other people, I've had to
work on being a better listener.
Usually I just think about abetter response, and I've really
had to work on it. And I cantell how much people really do
appreciate it when you put thephone down and you don't think
(26:13):
of a better response like youreally just lean in and just
focus on repeating somethingthat they just said, or a follow
up question based on what theyjust said, so that they know,
you know another one I do thatI'd love to share with people. I
learned this from a dean at abusiness school. If you're on
Zoom and you put your two handstogether under your chin like
(26:34):
this, everyone knows that you'relistening to them. You're not
off to the side on the phone,but, but these, these are great.
I think, I think slowing downand eliciting deeply is super
important. And we're just comingto the to the end of our time
together. And Graham, are thereany final thoughts or things
that you want to share with theaudience that you think are
(26:56):
really important, like therelease date of your new book.
Let's, let's tell people how toget a hold of it. When's it
coming out? What's the title?
Where can they get it? So
Graham Allcott (27:07):
we come out in the UK on October 10, and then
we'll be out in the US. I thinkit's January, 6 or seventh,
next. Okay? It's with Bloomsburybusiness, and it'll be on in all
as I often say, it's availablein all good bookshops and some
bad ones too, mentioning rodo,Uncle Jeff. But yeah, if you
(27:31):
want to connect with me, I dothis. I do a weekly email, which
goes out on a Sunday evening.
And the idea is one positive orproductive idea for the week
ahead. And it's free. If youwant to get on that, you just go
to Graham orcop.com and yeah,you'll see a little form on
there that you fill in. It'scalled Rev up for the week. And
so the idea is just one positivethought, to just power your week
(27:53):
on a Monday and we send it outevery Sunday for free. And so
yeah, to connect, connect withme there, reply to those emails.
And yeah, we'd love to chat
Michael McCarthy (28:02):
beautiful Graham, thank you so much for
your time. And we'd love tointerview you again about, you
know, six or 12 months after thebook has been out, just to see
what's the impact been, youknow, what have you learned?
What's really resonating withpeople? And I've really
appreciated today's conversationwith you that
Graham Allcott (28:17):
would be my pleasure. Thank you. Michael,
okay,
Michael McCarthy (28:20):
take care, everyone. Bye, bye. We hope
you've enjoyed this episode. Ifyou'd like to hear future
episodes, be sure to subscribeto the happy at work podcast and
leave us a review with yourthoughts.
Tessa Misiaszek (28:35):
Are you interested in speaking on a
future episode, or want tocollaborate with us? Let us
know. You can send us an emailat admin, at happy, at work,
podcast.com,
Laura Hamill (28:46):
and lastly, follow us on LinkedIn or Twitter for
even more happiness. See yousoon. You.
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