October 18, 2024 • 41 mins
#76 — At the heart of the scientific method lies the idea that perspectives are not static—they evolve, shift, and intersect as we tackle scientific problems from different perspectives and uncover new ground truths.
Yet, for most of us, daily science boils down to fine details such as the particulars of experimental design, the caveats to our experiments, producing enough data to satisfy the boss, exporting your data in the correct format, and leaving the instrument ready for the next user.
The list really does go on. And each item is a valid thing to focus on, depending on your perspective.
But how do you maintain clarity amidst these particulars?
If your project involves analyzing a bunch of numbers, how do you avoid the pitfalls of narrow-mindedness and tunnel vision?
And if you were unfettered by so many details and particulars, what would the top research priority be?
In this episode, we look up instead of down and refresh the importance of thinking from different perspectives to avoid tunnel vision and keep your mind open to fresh ideas.
Watch or Listen to all episodes of The Happy Scientist podcast here: https://thehappyscientist.bitesizebio.com
#Podcast #BitesizeBio #TheHappyScientist
If you enjoyed this episode and want more practical tips on being a happy and successful scientist, we can help. Download The Happy Scientist Reference Pack today, and reignite your passion for science.
https://bitesizebio.com/the-happy-scientist-reference-pack/?ref=bsb-podcast
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nick Oswald (00:30):
This is the Happy Scientist Podcast. Each episode
is designed to make you morefocused, more productive, and
more satisfied in the lab. Youcan find us online at
bitesizebio.com/happyscientist.Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt,
founder of the executivecoaching firm, Vera Claritas,
and doctor Nick Oswald, PhD,bioscientist, and founder of
(00:53):
bite size bio.
Hello. This is Nick Oswaldwelcoming you to this Bite Size
Bio webinar, which today is alive episode of the Happy
Scientist podcast. If you wantto become a happier, healthier,
and more productive scientist,you are in the right place. With
(01:13):
me, as always, is mister KennethVogt. In these sessions, we will
hear from Ken mostly onprinciples that will help shape
you for a happier and a moresuccessful career.
And along the way, I'll pitch in with points from
my personal experience as ascientist and from working with
Ken. If you have any questionsalong the way, put them into the
questions box that appears onthe right side of your screen,
(01:35):
and I'll put them to Ken. Andtoday, we will be asking, does
your science box you in? Okay,Ken. Take it away.
Kenneth Vogt (01:43):
Alright. I I wanna add that today, especially,
there's gonna be a lot of inputfrom Nick because I'm gonna ask
him a lot of questions. Becausethe this notion of having a
particular perspective is oneI'm familiar with, but, you
know, I don't work in the lab.And so there there are 3 points
(02:06):
that are on the screen right nowthat, that I want that I wanna
key on, the idea of, you know,are your ideas fresh? Is your
mind open?
Is your attitude healthy? Andhow that actually applies in the
lab. Because, I mean, of course,it applies all throughout your
life, but, and having a goodwell, not a good perspective
(02:30):
isn't so much my point, buthaving a useful perspective is a
good idea. The first thing wehave to recognize is that we we
do have a perspective. And wemight wanna think about what
that is by definition.
And I was I was looking at thedictionary definition for
(02:52):
perspective, and the firstdefinition isn't about kind of
perspective I'm talking abouthere, but it is interesting. So
here it is. Perspective is theart of drawing solid objects on
a 2 dimensional surface so as togive the right impression of
their height, width, depth, andposition in relation to each
(03:15):
other when viewed from aparticular point. Now this is
very familiar to us. It'sfamiliar from the state, from
how we observe the world, butit's also familiar with this
this artistic rendition here.
We've seen this kind of thingdone, and we recognize it. And
when you see something drawnthat is, without question, 2
(03:39):
dimensional, and yet you observeit as a three-dimensional
rendering, you are using aperspective. And and the artist
actually had some say over whatperspective you you would have,
and and that's that's what thisdrawing is is showing you an
example of. It's showing youwhere the perspective points
(04:02):
might be. And I rememberlearning this in in art class in
high school, and it just kindablew my mind.
And you start to recognize thatit is it is normal. It is how we
observe the world. Now let'stalk about the definition of
perspective that I wanted tobring bring to this call today.
(04:25):
That's the second one. It'sperspective as a particular
attitude toward or a way ofregarding something, a point of
view.
Now you might think that thatsounds restrictive, and in some
ways, it can be, but it alsoallows you to key in on
something. So if we go back tothat that thing we talked about
(04:50):
on the last slide, keeping yourideas fresh, maybe the answer is
to change your perspective. Tokeep your mind open is to
recognize that the perspectivethat you commonly have is not
the only one. And having, youknow, and having your your
(05:11):
science be healthy may wellrequire you to change your
perspective. So, Nick, I'll putthis to you.
Have you ever had a situation inthe lab where you were required
to change your perspective?Anything come to mind there?
Nick Oswald (05:29):
Well, I have not been in the lab for quite a long
time, but I have. I so I'm notgonna talk about something
specific. But for me, the one ofthe main if I look at the one of
the main contours of where wherethis thing could get tangled up,
the perspective, it's the factthat you when you're in the lab,
(05:53):
you're doing science. Science isa particular way of examining a
question, And but on a personallevel, in parallel, you have a
motivation to get an an to getan answer, and you sometimes
have a motivation to get ananswer that would work for the
bigger picture that you that youare personally looking forward
to make your paper or whatever.Mhmm.
(06:14):
And that if it's quite easy toget a path down that direction
where you're just looking forthe result, not you're just
looking for the result. Yourprimary perspective is I need to
get this result.
Kenneth Vogt (06:28):
Mhmm.
Nick Oswald (06:28):
And in that case, you need to keep flipping
yourself out of out of thatpersonal perspective and into
the the scientific perspective,which is asking the question in
the correct way and just seeingwhat happens.
Kenneth Vogt (06:40):
Right.
Nick Oswald (06:41):
So that that would be one of the major path major
things pathings that I wouldhave seen of myself and of other
people in in a lab situation.
Kenneth Vogt (06:51):
Sure. And and it's it's possible to have a really
negative, motivation. You know?You're you're wanting to please
your funder. That that could be,something that would really,
really torque your perspective.
Or it could be selfish. I want aresult to turn out a certain way
(07:14):
because I've already put in allof this effort. I've put out
papers on this topic. And if Iget a different result, I'm
gonna have to change my view.I'm gonna have to admit I missed
something in the past, and wedon't wanna do that.
You know? But it isn't alwaysall that negative. It may just
be that this is familiar. I'mI'm used to looking at it this
(07:38):
way, and to change yourperspective feels a little scary
or maybe a little painful. Or itforces you to enter into the
unknown, which is not acomfortable place.
And, you know, so there'sthere's all kinds of reasons why
you might not wanna change yourperspective. Now there are other
times when your perspective isis gonna be forced to change.
(08:04):
Circumstances or or, you know,just data is gonna make you have
to change your perspective.Something happens that doesn't
make sense in the lab, at leastfrom your present perspective,
you're gonna have to get out ofthat that perspective to
understand how is it possiblethat I got these results. Now,
(08:27):
obviously, sometimes it'spossible because something went
wrong, something got corrupted,something something that was
supposed to be kept out got in,you know, contamination, just
just outside outside influencesthat that you were trying to
control for and the controlfailed.
(08:49):
Alright. All that's fine, but itwill require you to recognize
your perspective's gotta shift.Now well, let me let me move to
the next slide because I wanna Iwanna talk about this idea of
viewpoint versus perspectivebecause they're not exactly the
same. Viewpoint is, in someways, kind of an application of
(09:12):
perspective. And I like thislittle illustration because both
both individuals here arearguing for the truth, because
they're looking at it.
They have data that thatsupports their viewpoint, But it
is important to recognize thatour viewpoints are often dealing
(09:34):
with limited information. And soshifting our perspective may
still make sense. You know, Ithink science is often its
highest objective is to uncoverwhat is true, and that is a
laudable goal. But it isimportant to recognize that we
do not have access to all data.We don't see everything at all
(09:58):
times, and so we have torecognize that the conclusions
that we draw sometimes may makesense for our subset of what is
true and may not make sense forthe whole of what is true.
And that's that's that's whatrecommends this notion of of
(10:19):
recognizing that perspective maymay be worthwhile to shift. So
if we start to learn theimportance for adopting
different perspectives on ourresearch, then then you realize
there's there's otherpossibilities. It opens things
up. This kinda goes back to thatidea of keeping your ideas
(10:41):
fresh. When you recognize thatit could be seen a different
way, that may trigger your thatmay trigger your imagination to
consider what are the otherpossibilities, what else could
happen.
Now your mind, of course, has tobe open for that to happen. If
you wanna you know, if you ifyou've been working with some
(11:02):
people and, man, they're socreative and they've always got
great new ideas and you'rethinking, why can't I have that?
Well, the answer is first, openup your mind. Give it a chance.
There's there's gotta you gottayou have to allow for the
possibility of something unusualto be there, something new to
(11:22):
show up.
You know, this this will impactwhat you discover, and it'll
impact what possibilities yousee because, you know, there's a
series of things going on allthe time. This possibility opens
up this idea, which opens upthis possibility, which opens up
(11:43):
this idea, and sometimes it'sit's a couple of things down the
line before you get there. Butif you can keep yourself open to
the possibility that my presentviewpoint is not the truth,
doesn't mean that you're wrong,Doesn't mean you're a liar. You
(12:03):
know, it just means there'smore. There's more to know.
And of course, you know, scienceis all about gaining knowledge.
We're you you're observingyou're observing the observable
world, but you gotta observe.And you have to you have to be
dispassionate about those thoseobservations. Be open to the
(12:24):
possibility that there's anotherway to see it. And if you do
that, then you then you will beable to see it.
And and I'm sure you've all hadthat experience where you had a
limited view of the world, andit was just the way you saw it,
the way you saw it, the way yousaw it, and then one day you
just broke out of that andeverything got bigger,
(12:48):
Everything got better.Everything got clearer because
you were willing to consider thepossibility that things aren't
as chiseled and granite as as,they may have first appeared.
And sometimes we we cling tothat because, well, it it just
would be simpler if if the worldwas simple, if it if everything
(13:10):
was plain. But after a while, wekinda get that beat out of us
because, you know, we we seefrom evidence that the world is
not simple, that things are notalways plain, and things don't
always follow the same set ofsimplistic rules. And if you can
allow for the fact that that ispossible, well, then you can see
(13:34):
other things, and you canactually use the anomalies to
your advantage.
There are sometimes when you youcan create an environment where
something isn't normal, but inthat abnormal environment, you
can get a particular kind ofresult, and I and, you know, I
think I'll I think it would beaccurate to say a lot of science
(13:55):
that is exactly what it's about.It's about creating something
abnormal that changes theresult. So I will, I will pause
for a moment here and let youget a word in, Nick.
Nick Oswald (14:08):
Just something that you said there just kind of
sparked something for me. It'salways been I always thought it
was a bit of a peculiarity aboutscience was that, and it's just
a kind of it's a mind trap in away As we talk about so much
about what we know, and we wetalk up what we know, what we've
(14:30):
discovered, you know, thebreakthroughs on all that. And
that of course, we do thatbecause we're we're proud of
that and we're excited about itand so on. But what that I
always think lays the trap offalling into thinking you know
more than you don't know. And,of course, we we don't we don't
(14:51):
know more than we know, if youknow what I mean.
Yeah. If you that's
Kenneth Vogt (14:54):
We often don't even know what we don't know.
Nick Oswald (14:57):
Exactly. Right? And so and so one of the flips is
the it's the useful thing thatyou're talking about here and
we've been talking about isflipping between perspectives.
Because staying in oneperspective, okay, this is what
I need personally. I need to getthe result.
That's fine. Okay. That drivesyou one way, but then you flip
out it and go bigger picture.What does this am I looking at
(15:17):
this from a pure scientificmethodology point of view? Am I
asking this in the right way?
Am I being neutral and all that?That's another flip. Another
flip is instead of looking atwhat you know and what you think
is gonna happen next based onyou know or what you think would
be a good question to ask basedon what you know is flipping
that around and saying, well,what don't we know? What might
(15:40):
be the absolute left field herethat I you know, that that would
looking at it that way, it makesyour imagination work in a
different way. Mhmm.
And then you it'll it'll it'llgive you other ways to look at
the problem or ways to look atthe possibilities. And, again, I
think it's the I I I think that,overall, what we're talking
(16:04):
about here is is having aflexible perspective. Is that
right? Mhmm.
Kenneth Vogt (16:09):
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And that's that's not
always comfortable, you know,because it it does force us out
of the familiar, and, you know,we like familiar. So I wanna I
wanna move on to an
Nick Oswald (16:23):
an analogy Before you say that, actually, before
we go to the next thing, theit's not just about familiar.
Well, it's one thing isfamiliar, but there also is that
there's a trend because there'spressures in science to get
results. Sure. There's pressuresfrom all around. And so being
results driven, for example, isone external pressure that,
especially if you'reinexperienced Mhmm.
(16:45):
Then, then you will tend tosuccumb to, and and that can
easily become more and more yourfixed perspective is getting
results. And even if you're moreexperienced, sometimes you're
just under so much pressure toget, you know, to to get what
you need that that becomes thedominant perspective, and it's
(17:05):
difficult to flip out into theseother ones.
Kenneth Vogt (17:07):
Sure. Well and, you make a good point there that
there there are a variety ofreasons why anyone holds a
particular perspective and whywe hold a perspective. It it
isn't necessarily because, youknow, you're, you know,
unwilling to change or you'renarrow minded. There are all
(17:28):
kinds of forces that are thatare bearing down on us at any
given moment, and we're gonnarespond to them, and it makes
sense.
Nick Oswald (17:36):
Yep.
Kenneth Vogt (17:37):
So so let me let me step back a little bit though
to talk about the startingpoints for perspectives. This
illustration here that's on thescreen may be familiar to folks.
It's a it's an old Buddhiststory about what happened when a
bunch of blind men, encounteredan elephant. And because, you
(17:58):
know, one walked up to the tail,and one walked up to the tusk,
and one walked up to the trunk,and one walked up to the side,
They all had differentperspectives. Well, you know,
it's like this.
It's like that. None of themwere wrong, but all of them were
limited. And there was nothingthere was nothing that they were
failing to do, but they did lackvision. And that lack of vision
(18:24):
caused them to see things acertain way. And in the in the
telling of the tale, they alljust made declarative
statements.
It's like a rope. It's like asnake. It's like a sword.
Instead of, it appears to belike, it it might be like this.
The part you know, they theydidn't acknowledge that there
(18:46):
are other possibilities, andthat's the that's kind of the
the point that you have to beat.
Are you open to consideringother perspectives, and can you
hold more than one perspectiveat the same time? That is not
intellectually necessarily easyto do, but, you know, y'all
didn't sign up for an easy jobintellectually if you're, you
(19:10):
know, lab based scientists.You're you're doing hard
intellectual work, and one ofthe skills that is worth gaining
is being able to hold more thanone perspective at the same
time. And if you if you do that,then then you don't get passed,
then you don't find yourselfstuck in ruts. And to to go back
(19:34):
to the point you were making alittle bit ago, Nick, it also
can explain why is thisparticular perspective so
compelling, and can I can Iallow myself to be uncomfortable
enough to consider a perspectivethat doesn't look at it from
that viewpoint?
And it may be that it'ssomething you're just doing
(19:56):
privately in your own head.Right? Or it may be that now in
this paper, I have to make bothI have to make case for both
scenarios. You know? I've gottaI've gotta talk about what the
the funder would like to betrue, but I also have to talk
about what the funder would liketo not be true because I have
evidence of the part they don'tlike.
(20:18):
And and, you know, you don't youdon't wanna you don't wanna play
fast and loose with your data,obviously, but you you do wanna
consider all sides. And, youknow, there is such a thing as
risk management. In a riskmanagement, you'd wanna consider
the the outlier data. You'llwanna consider the stuff that
doesn't support the mainperspective, but it does
(20:40):
introduce some question aboutit. And and opening those
questions up may lead to furtherresearch and may lead down
rabbit holes that are worthgoing down.
You know? It but even if you'renot gonna pursue those things,
just saying them out loud getsit on the table. And maybe it'll
(21:02):
be pursued by other people, butmaybe it's just a matter of,
it's it's an adherence to tohonesty. It's an adherence to
to, you know, it's a highercharacter. We don't we don't
call something 2 +2 equals 4when it's not that certain that
(21:25):
2+2 equals 4.
2+2 equals 4 most of the time.And and we can say that we can
say that with integrity, and anddo that. Now, I mean, there are
some things that they're alwaysgonna be they always equal 4.
And and, you know, we do wannanote that too. But especially in
(21:45):
biology, things are are analog.
They're not so digital. They'renot necessarily so perfect.
We're talking aboutprobabilities rather than
certainties, and, you know, andthat's that's useful to
recognize.
Nick Oswald (22:00):
I think one way of looking at this as well, though,
is is, just noting down somestuff. Now this is off the top
of my head, so Mhmm. It mightnot be exactly right. But one of
the it strikes me that one ofthe things that that is inherent
in being a scientist is thatthere are you talked about
scientists as an science as anintellectual pursuit. It is.
(22:23):
Right? But so intellect, thatmeans you need the ability to
commute com compute and, youknow, act intelligently or think
intelligently. But you also haveto have motivation. Right? It's,
you have to have rigor.
You have create you have to havecreativity, and you have to be
able to tell a story about whatyour research is seeing overall.
(22:44):
And each of those, intellect,motivation intellectual
approach, motivational approachand discipline, creative
approach using your imagination,rigor, and storytelling, All of
those require it require you totake a different perspective,
and so you must be able to flipbetween them.
Kenneth Vogt (23:03):
Mhmm.
Nick Oswald (23:04):
And, and having one of those as the dominant, if
you're if having one of those asthe dominant will will make your
life more difficult as a sinus,I think, if you if you stick in
1 or 2 of them. If you can getthe 360, then, then that is
gonna make it much easier foryou to be a rounded scientist.
(23:25):
And I don't think that's aperfect list. Again, that was
off the top of my head, but thatis the sort of rounded, open
perspective that you youactually need, to be able to
cover all facets of the job as aof a scientist, I think.
Kenneth Vogt (23:39):
Sure. And if you consider the you know, your
fellow scientists that you mostadmire, that you that you have
the most confidence in, theyhave the broadest possible
perspective. And and I'll bet inmost cases, most of them would
not claim that their perspectiveis the whole truth. They, you
(24:01):
know, they may know know the thestate of their science better
than than anyone, and yet theyknow it can be known better. And
that's that's how we we keeppushing forward.
And we recognize that I amnaturally coming from a limited
perspective. It's I'm I amstarting from where I am. You
(24:23):
know? That's that's always thecase. And we may have spent
years years going down a certainpath, and and now we're quite,
we're quite connected to it.
And so we have to make it apoint to shake ourselves out of
that. And And I'm sure you knowpeople like that, that somebody
early on, they had some greatinsight. They had they've made
(24:47):
some great discovery, and nowtheir whole career is just about
that. And they're they'rethey're a one trick pony, and
that's all they talk about, andthat's how they see everything.
And everything gets measuredthrough that that lens, and that
is limiting.
And whereas, you know, otherfolks when they've had those
early things, they didn't allowthose early successes to to
(25:09):
stylize them. They they kepttheir options open. So I wanna
talk about 2 ways that thatcould go wrong. One is by tunnel
vision and the other is bysiloing. And they're in some
ways the same thing, but they'rethey offer the perspective from
from 2 different directions.
(25:30):
1 is about, you know, backwardsversus forwards, another is up
versus down. So tunnel vision iswhen when you look at everything
only from a narrow perspective,and there's only one way
through. And you have to go thatway. The solution to this is
always that way. That could bevery narrowing.
(25:54):
The siloing is a littledifferent. Siloing is when you
get stuck in a particulardiscipline, say. If you yeah.
It's like talking about thedifference between how a
biologist sees something and howa chemist sees something. It's a
silo.
If you if you only ever look atit through one of those
(26:17):
perspectives, if you only everlook at it mathematically, if
you only ever look at itstatistically, if you only ever
look at it, through in terms ofof viability. And and then we
miss out on on the underlyinglayers. Those are those are
(26:38):
limitations to one'sperspective. And and we all find
ourselves caught up in this onoccasion. It happens.
You know? It's just good torecognize on the right now,
okay, I'm I've got tunnelvision. Right now, I'm kinda
siloed. And then and then westart to see there's a way to
look outside of that. It'sfunny.
(27:02):
When I was I was putting theseslides together, those silos
that are there on a farm, WhereI grew up, there were silos like
that all over the place. Andand, you know, it just made
sense to have have silos. Youhad a place to store grain, and
and it was you know, it kept itsafe and kept it kept it, you
(27:23):
know, stored for long periods oftime as useful. The siloing can
be helpful to you and that, youknow, you've got a deep
perspective in in your area ofexpertise that is useful. But
it's still right there.
You know, you can't feed thecows out of the silo. You got
(27:43):
you're gonna have to pull it outof the silo and spread it around
where the livestock can get toit. Yeah. I don't have as much
experience with tunnels, but,some folks may have grown up in
places where there were caves orwhere there were mines. And it
does change your perspectivebecause you're you are closed
in.
(28:04):
And sometimes it's dark andscary. And, the to me, the the
notion of tunnel vision is is alot more frightening because I
think most of us would not liketo be accused of having tunnel
vision. But being accused of ofof being siloed is not quite as
(28:25):
scary. And in fact, we may feellike it's not my fault. I I was
put over here in thisdepartment, and I'm told to what
to do, and I have to do it thisway.
And it's just how it is. Or orthey hired me so that I would be
that statistician. That's whyI'm here. I'm supposed to look
at it that way. And that'sthat's all fine to recognize
(28:50):
that that's the what'shappening, and that's how it is.
And so it'll happen, sometimesyou will be in a setting where
you're presenting it from aparticular viewpoint, and other
people are pushing back. And yougotta recognize that that's
okay. It was good that you couldpresent it from the viewpoint
you are coming from, but it'salso good that others could take
(29:14):
issue with things because theyare seeing things from another
perspective and they're supposedto. And this allows for
collaboration. It it it freesyou up because, like, you know,
I can focus on this part of itbecause Bob is focusing on that
and Sarah is focusing on that,and I don't have to focus on
that.
(29:34):
That they got it covered, andyou can work together as a team.
And you can go deep in each ofyour own areas, which is great.
But you also obviously can learnfrom Bob, and you can learn from
Sarah. And it can inform how youlook at the, you know, the data
that you have and and theconclusions that you're drawing.
(29:56):
So, you know, don't be afraid todo that.
And not not just afraid, buttake advantage of it. Use it as
an opportunity. It it'll onlybroaden your your horizons. So
here's here's anotherinteresting thing to consider.
Since you do have a perspectiveand sometimes it's a very select
(30:20):
perspective, a singleperspective.
Is it still possible to beinnovative? Is it still possible
that new things can bediscovered, from this particular
perspective, maybe even fairlycalled limited perspective? And
the answer is yes. Sometimeslimiting your perspective allows
(30:44):
you to focus, and that's how youfind do you see patterns because
you're you're really focused ononly this part of what's going
on here. And so you will seethings that somebody who's
taking a broader view might notnotice.
It isn't that they're failing tolook. It's just that you're
laser focused. You're you're,you know that that's why there's
(31:07):
microscopes. Right? So that youcan look very, very closely at
things.
And sometimes that is indeed asource of innovation. So I guess
my point is here. I'm notlooking down on perspectives.
I'm not looking down onviewpoints or, they have their
purpose. But it is importantthat you know that you're coming
(31:31):
from this perspective.
You're coming from from thisviewpoint so that you you know
the you know the restrictions.You know the parts that are
taken out of that view. Doesthere some things that you just
you can't you can't know unlessyou look that close, but you do
need to know that, you know, inthis situation where, you know,
(31:54):
you know, you're working in thecryo lab, and at this
temperature, this is whathappens. So it's really
important to know what thetemperature was at which that
happens. Right?
That's part of the perspectiveis to know the limitations that
are the defining characteristicsof that perspective. Let me
(32:15):
pause again here and let youspeak up, Nick.
Nick Oswald (32:18):
Yep. I think this is, I think it's this is shaping
up to be quite an interestingchat, actually. I'm just noting
down some perspectives that Ihave had a a experience in which
kind of allow flip and allow orallowed me to flip and and get
really, you know, get a reallydifferent perspective, which
(32:39):
informed my, you know, how Iapproach the problem. So for
example, I worked as a with withonly biologists for a long time,
and then I moved to somewherewhere I was working with lots of
chemists. And that allowed me totake on the the chemist's
(32:59):
perspective of the same problem.
And, I was looking at, inenzymatic catalysis using
enzymes to make chemicalreactions happen. The way that
biologists look at that iscompletely different from the
way chemists look at that, andboth of them can help help
inform each other. But as abiologist, you look at it in one
(33:19):
way, and then as a chemist, youlook at it in another way. I had
an experience where I was anewbie coming into a pro into a
company where they were tryingto solve a particular problem.
There was lots of veryexperienced people in there.
And I came in. They talked aboutthe problem, and I saw a flaw in
the in the strategy only becauseI was new. Mhmm. And it turned
out to be the what they werelooking for to change it, and
(33:42):
that was an you know, it's justan an innocent perspective, if
you know, or a naiveperspective. You could the
different perspective is beingin a comfortable situation where
you don't need to make somethinghappen.
You can just keep ticking along.Or being in a pressurized sit
situation where you must makesomething happen, And those give
you a different perspectives.And then the one that I talked
(34:04):
about before about, about in thelab looking to answer a
question, or are you looking inthe lab looking to get a result?
And both of those are differentperspectives. I think that's a
it's and as you said, it's justworth noting where you are, what
perspective you have in the labat the moment, in in your work
(34:26):
or whatever you're doing.
This can be in any discipline,really.
Kenneth Vogt (34:28):
Sure.
Nick Oswald (34:29):
And what are some other perspectives that you
could flip to that could informwhat you're doing? And you can
always go back to the one youhad in the beginning as well.
You know? Yeah. Exactly.
Kenneth Vogt (34:40):
Yeah. What that leads into the next slide pretty
well. You know, sometimes it'sactually time to switch, to to
switch perspectives. And so whathappens? Are you willing to do
that?
And, you know, there may well beramifications and some of them
may not be so pleasant. Some ofthem, you know, maybe there's no
(35:00):
scientific impact, but there'spolitical impact. You know,
there's social impact. So allthose have to be considered. You
you know, if you're gonna changeperspectives, you you're better
off to do it mindfully, to beaware that this is what's
happening here.
If you find yourself justsliding into it or being
(35:22):
pressured into it, it may not bea very smooth transition. So,
you know, you wanna be able todo this. Switching perspectives
is gonna make you immensely morecapable and more rounded as a
scientist. And something youjust said, Nick, about about
your experience there there backin the lab when you were new to
(35:42):
to an operation points outsomething that if you're a
newbie, if you are younger andless experienced, it doesn't
mean you don't have valuableobservations. And sometimes it
is good for you to speak up.
Sometimes you need to be youneed to be the little boy that
says, hey. The emperor has noclothes. You know? And others
(36:05):
weren't weren't brave enough tosay it, or they were so pathed
socially or or, you know,politically that they just
couldn't do it. And you actuallygive folks, like, that cover and
then they can take the ball fromthere.
So understand you don't have tosolve every problem. But if you
have a perspective that sees,you know, sees a risk, that sees
(36:26):
a flaw, If you can't if you canvoice it, if you can communicate
it, it may well be that othersthen will pick up on that and
take it to the next step. Evenif you don't know what the next
step would be, you might see aproblem and have no idea how to
solve it. That doesn't meanothers won't know how to solve
it if they become aware thatthere's a problem. And what you
(36:48):
add is that you're the personthat points out there's
something to look at here.
So, you know, don't don't beafraid to to be engaged,
whatever level you're at. Now,and I will grant you that there
you know, there's protocol,there's there's a proper way to
introduce things, you know, youdon't wanna just be a bull in a
china shop, but, look for youropportunities to make
(37:13):
contributions even if the onlycontribution that you can offer
at the moment is to saysomething's wrong. It's okay.
That's a perspective, and it's auseful perspective, especially
when it's true. Even if it's nottrue, though, sometimes bringing
it up allows the opportunity topoint for someone else who's
experienced to point out this iswhy this isn't broken and why
(37:33):
it's okay, and it's a learningopportunity.
So
Nick Oswald (37:37):
Yeah. I would also say I've been in the situation
where I've not been the newbie,and a newbie has kind of been
reeling off ideas that, yeah, Ihad that 5 years ago. You know?
Kenneth Vogt (37:46):
And it's like, you
Nick Oswald (37:47):
know, so it's so but you must have as a as a an
experienced person, you mustgive those people the the room
to get those ideas out becauseit's a good thought exercise for
them, but also they might justcome up with a gem that
something you haven't thoughtabout because you're looking at
at it in a different way.
Kenneth Vogt (38:05):
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So be willing to switch
up whether you're you're new oryou're experienced and because
we we just don't know what'sgonna happen next, what
opportunities that, it willraise. So that was that was
everything I, wanted to covertoday.
Is there anything else, Nick,you had you wanted to bring up?
Nick Oswald (38:27):
Yeah. So just one other thing this might be
pointing out the obvious, but,we're talking about you know,
this this podcast and Bite SizeBio in general aims to help
scientists in the lab andbeyond. So I was just thinking
about, how you apply this ideaof perspective to your you know,
this can also be applied towider areas of your life. You
(38:50):
know, how do you look at thingson it? What's your habitual way
of looking at things, and isthere a different way to look at
it?
And, for example, you could yourhabitual way of looking at life
could be looking at what youdon't have and how to get it.
And instead of that, you couldflip it to, well, what if you
trained yourself or just stop toconsider, well, what about what
you do have instead of what you,just focusing on what you don't
(39:14):
have? You know? And then that'sthat's where gratitude comes
from, I guess. Yeah.
And, what about, instead ofhabitually focusing on what you
want, focus on what you need.And then how much of that you
already have? You know? It'sjust it's just perspectives, and
it and it's just so easy to toto forget that we all are
(39:36):
programmed with certainperspectives or we've habitually
taken on certain perspectives.And that We've programmed
ourselves with it in many ways.
Yeah. And and that really setsour world views. And so what
we're talking about here is likea kaleidoscope. You can click
around to different perspectivesin the lab and your life and,
and, you know, see lots morecolors.
Kenneth Vogt (39:57):
Yeah. Well, see, I told you, Nick was gonna have a
lot to say on this topic, soproved to be so.
Nick Oswald (40:03):
Well, I didn't know, but you opened up my
perspective there.
Kenneth Vogt (40:06):
Alright. Excellent. Thank you, Nick.
Nick Oswald (40:08):
Okay. Thank you, Ken, for for another very
interesting topic. I don't knowhow you keep coming up with
them. And thank you to theaudience for listening.
Kenneth Vogt (40:17):
Keep my perspectives open.
Nick Oswald (40:18):
Oh, okay. There you go. And thanks to you all for
listening in, whether that waslive today or on the on demand
later. If you've enjoyed thecontent, please subscribe to the
Happy Science on Your Favouritepodcast platform, and let your
friends know, your colleaguesknow about this so that they can
also benefit. We'll becomehaving, some other episodes
(40:41):
coming up in the near future.
You can check those out atevents.bitesizebio.com. And
until then, until next time,good luck in your research, and
goodbye from all of us at BiteSize Bio. Bye.
The Happy Scientist is brought to you by Bite Size
(41:03):
Bio, your mentor in the lab.Bite Size Bio features thousands
of articles and webinarscontributed by hundreds of PhD
scientists and scientificcompanies who freely offer their
hard won wisdom and solutions tothe bite sized bio community.
This is the Happy Scientist Podcast. Each episode
is designed to make you morefocused, more productive, and
more satisfied in the lab. Youcan find us online at
bitesizebio.com/happyscientist.Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt,
founder of the executivecoaching firm, Vera Claritas,
and doctor Nick Oswald, PhD,bioscientist, and founder of
(00:53):
bite size bio.
Hello. This is Nick Oswaldwelcoming you to this Bite Size
Bio webinar, which today is alive episode of the Happy
Scientist podcast. If you wantto become a happier, healthier,
and more productive scientist,you are in the right place. With
(01:13):
me, as always, is mister KennethVogt. In these sessions, we will
hear from Ken mostly onprinciples that will help shape
you for a happier and a moresuccessful career.
And along the way, I'll pitch in with points from
my personal experience as ascientist and from working with
Ken. If you have any questionsalong the way, put them into the
questions box that appears onthe right side of your screen,
(01:35):
and I'll put them to Ken. Andtoday, we will be asking, does
your science box you in? Okay,Ken. Take it away.
Kenneth Vogt (01:43):
Alright. I I wanna add that today, especially,
there's gonna be a lot of inputfrom Nick because I'm gonna ask
him a lot of questions. Becausethe this notion of having a
particular perspective is oneI'm familiar with, but, you
know, I don't work in the lab.And so there there are 3 points
(02:06):
that are on the screen right nowthat, that I want that I wanna
key on, the idea of, you know,are your ideas fresh? Is your
mind open?
Is your attitude healthy? Andhow that actually applies in the
lab. Because, I mean, of course,it applies all throughout your
life, but, and having a goodwell, not a good perspective
(02:30):
isn't so much my point, buthaving a useful perspective is a
good idea. The first thing wehave to recognize is that we we
do have a perspective. And wemight wanna think about what
that is by definition.
And I was I was looking at thedictionary definition for
(02:52):
perspective, and the firstdefinition isn't about kind of
perspective I'm talking abouthere, but it is interesting. So
here it is. Perspective is theart of drawing solid objects on
a 2 dimensional surface so as togive the right impression of
their height, width, depth, andposition in relation to each
(03:15):
other when viewed from aparticular point. Now this is
very familiar to us. It'sfamiliar from the state, from
how we observe the world, butit's also familiar with this
this artistic rendition here.
We've seen this kind of thingdone, and we recognize it. And
when you see something drawnthat is, without question, 2
(03:39):
dimensional, and yet you observeit as a three-dimensional
rendering, you are using aperspective. And and the artist
actually had some say over whatperspective you you would have,
and and that's that's what thisdrawing is is showing you an
example of. It's showing youwhere the perspective points
(04:02):
might be. And I rememberlearning this in in art class in
high school, and it just kindablew my mind.
And you start to recognize thatit is it is normal. It is how we
observe the world. Now let'stalk about the definition of
perspective that I wanted tobring bring to this call today.
(04:25):
That's the second one. It'sperspective as a particular
attitude toward or a way ofregarding something, a point of
view.
Now you might think that thatsounds restrictive, and in some
ways, it can be, but it alsoallows you to key in on
something. So if we go back tothat that thing we talked about
(04:50):
on the last slide, keeping yourideas fresh, maybe the answer is
to change your perspective. Tokeep your mind open is to
recognize that the perspectivethat you commonly have is not
the only one. And having, youknow, and having your your
(05:11):
science be healthy may wellrequire you to change your
perspective. So, Nick, I'll putthis to you.
Have you ever had a situation inthe lab where you were required
to change your perspective?Anything come to mind there?
Nick Oswald (05:29):
Well, I have not been in the lab for quite a long
time, but I have. I so I'm notgonna talk about something
specific. But for me, the one ofthe main if I look at the one of
the main contours of where wherethis thing could get tangled up,
the perspective, it's the factthat you when you're in the lab,
(05:53):
you're doing science. Science isa particular way of examining a
question, And but on a personallevel, in parallel, you have a
motivation to get an an to getan answer, and you sometimes
have a motivation to get ananswer that would work for the
bigger picture that you that youare personally looking forward
to make your paper or whatever.Mhmm.
(06:14):
And that if it's quite easy toget a path down that direction
where you're just looking forthe result, not you're just
looking for the result. Yourprimary perspective is I need to
get this result.
Kenneth Vogt (06:28):
Mhmm.
Nick Oswald (06:28):
And in that case, you need to keep flipping
yourself out of out of thatpersonal perspective and into
the the scientific perspective,which is asking the question in
the correct way and just seeingwhat happens.
Kenneth Vogt (06:40):
Right.
Nick Oswald (06:41):
So that that would be one of the major path major
things pathings that I wouldhave seen of myself and of other
people in in a lab situation.
Kenneth Vogt (06:51):
Sure. And and it's it's possible to have a really
negative, motivation. You know?You're you're wanting to please
your funder. That that could be,something that would really,
really torque your perspective.
Or it could be selfish. I want aresult to turn out a certain way
(07:14):
because I've already put in allof this effort. I've put out
papers on this topic. And if Iget a different result, I'm
gonna have to change my view.I'm gonna have to admit I missed
something in the past, and wedon't wanna do that.
You know? But it isn't alwaysall that negative. It may just
be that this is familiar. I'mI'm used to looking at it this
(07:38):
way, and to change yourperspective feels a little scary
or maybe a little painful. Or itforces you to enter into the
unknown, which is not acomfortable place.
And, you know, so there'sthere's all kinds of reasons why
you might not wanna change yourperspective. Now there are other
times when your perspective isis gonna be forced to change.
(08:04):
Circumstances or or, you know,just data is gonna make you have
to change your perspective.Something happens that doesn't
make sense in the lab, at leastfrom your present perspective,
you're gonna have to get out ofthat that perspective to
understand how is it possiblethat I got these results. Now,
(08:27):
obviously, sometimes it'spossible because something went
wrong, something got corrupted,something something that was
supposed to be kept out got in,you know, contamination, just
just outside outside influencesthat that you were trying to
control for and the controlfailed.
(08:49):
Alright. All that's fine, but itwill require you to recognize
your perspective's gotta shift.Now well, let me let me move to
the next slide because I wanna Iwanna talk about this idea of
viewpoint versus perspectivebecause they're not exactly the
same. Viewpoint is, in someways, kind of an application of
(09:12):
perspective. And I like thislittle illustration because both
both individuals here arearguing for the truth, because
they're looking at it.
They have data that thatsupports their viewpoint, But it
is important to recognize thatour viewpoints are often dealing
(09:34):
with limited information. And soshifting our perspective may
still make sense. You know, Ithink science is often its
highest objective is to uncoverwhat is true, and that is a
laudable goal. But it isimportant to recognize that we
do not have access to all data.We don't see everything at all
(09:58):
times, and so we have torecognize that the conclusions
that we draw sometimes may makesense for our subset of what is
true and may not make sense forthe whole of what is true.
And that's that's that's whatrecommends this notion of of
(10:19):
recognizing that perspective maymay be worthwhile to shift. So
if we start to learn theimportance for adopting
different perspectives on ourresearch, then then you realize
there's there's otherpossibilities. It opens things
up. This kinda goes back to thatidea of keeping your ideas
(10:41):
fresh. When you recognize thatit could be seen a different
way, that may trigger your thatmay trigger your imagination to
consider what are the otherpossibilities, what else could
happen.
Now your mind, of course, has tobe open for that to happen. If
you wanna you know, if you ifyou've been working with some
(11:02):
people and, man, they're socreative and they've always got
great new ideas and you'rethinking, why can't I have that?
Well, the answer is first, openup your mind. Give it a chance.
There's there's gotta you gottayou have to allow for the
possibility of something unusualto be there, something new to
(11:22):
show up.
You know, this this will impactwhat you discover, and it'll
impact what possibilities yousee because, you know, there's a
series of things going on allthe time. This possibility opens
up this idea, which opens upthis possibility, which opens up
(11:43):
this idea, and sometimes it'sit's a couple of things down the
line before you get there. Butif you can keep yourself open to
the possibility that my presentviewpoint is not the truth,
doesn't mean that you're wrong,Doesn't mean you're a liar. You
(12:03):
know, it just means there'smore. There's more to know.
And of course, you know, scienceis all about gaining knowledge.
We're you you're observingyou're observing the observable
world, but you gotta observe.And you have to you have to be
dispassionate about those thoseobservations. Be open to the
(12:24):
possibility that there's anotherway to see it. And if you do
that, then you then you will beable to see it.
And and I'm sure you've all hadthat experience where you had a
limited view of the world, andit was just the way you saw it,
the way you saw it, the way yousaw it, and then one day you
just broke out of that andeverything got bigger,
(12:48):
Everything got better.Everything got clearer because
you were willing to consider thepossibility that things aren't
as chiseled and granite as as,they may have first appeared.
And sometimes we we cling tothat because, well, it it just
would be simpler if if the worldwas simple, if it if everything
(13:10):
was plain. But after a while, wekinda get that beat out of us
because, you know, we we seefrom evidence that the world is
not simple, that things are notalways plain, and things don't
always follow the same set ofsimplistic rules. And if you can
allow for the fact that that ispossible, well, then you can see
(13:34):
other things, and you canactually use the anomalies to
your advantage.
There are sometimes when you youcan create an environment where
something isn't normal, but inthat abnormal environment, you
can get a particular kind ofresult, and I and, you know, I
think I'll I think it would beaccurate to say a lot of science
(13:55):
that is exactly what it's about.It's about creating something
abnormal that changes theresult. So I will, I will pause
for a moment here and let youget a word in, Nick.
Nick Oswald (14:08):
Just something that you said there just kind of
sparked something for me. It'salways been I always thought it
was a bit of a peculiarity aboutscience was that, and it's just
a kind of it's a mind trap in away As we talk about so much
about what we know, and we wetalk up what we know, what we've
(14:30):
discovered, you know, thebreakthroughs on all that. And
that of course, we do thatbecause we're we're proud of
that and we're excited about itand so on. But what that I
always think lays the trap offalling into thinking you know
more than you don't know. And,of course, we we don't we don't
(14:51):
know more than we know, if youknow what I mean.
Yeah. If you that's
Kenneth Vogt (14:54):
We often don't even know what we don't know.
Nick Oswald (14:57):
Exactly. Right? And so and so one of the flips is
the it's the useful thing thatyou're talking about here and
we've been talking about isflipping between perspectives.
Because staying in oneperspective, okay, this is what
I need personally. I need to getthe result.
That's fine. Okay. That drivesyou one way, but then you flip
out it and go bigger picture.What does this am I looking at
(15:17):
this from a pure scientificmethodology point of view? Am I
asking this in the right way?
Am I being neutral and all that?That's another flip. Another
flip is instead of looking atwhat you know and what you think
is gonna happen next based onyou know or what you think would
be a good question to ask basedon what you know is flipping
that around and saying, well,what don't we know? What might
(15:40):
be the absolute left field herethat I you know, that that would
looking at it that way, it makesyour imagination work in a
different way. Mhmm.
And then you it'll it'll it'llgive you other ways to look at
the problem or ways to look atthe possibilities. And, again, I
think it's the I I I think that,overall, what we're talking
(16:04):
about here is is having aflexible perspective. Is that
right? Mhmm.
Kenneth Vogt (16:09):
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And that's that's not
always comfortable, you know,because it it does force us out
of the familiar, and, you know,we like familiar. So I wanna I
wanna move on to an
Nick Oswald (16:23):
an analogy Before you say that, actually, before
we go to the next thing, theit's not just about familiar.
Well, it's one thing isfamiliar, but there also is that
there's a trend because there'spressures in science to get
results. Sure. There's pressuresfrom all around. And so being
results driven, for example, isone external pressure that,
especially if you'reinexperienced Mhmm.
(16:45):
Then, then you will tend tosuccumb to, and and that can
easily become more and more yourfixed perspective is getting
results. And even if you're moreexperienced, sometimes you're
just under so much pressure toget, you know, to to get what
you need that that becomes thedominant perspective, and it's
(17:05):
difficult to flip out into theseother ones.
Kenneth Vogt (17:07):
Sure. Well and, you make a good point there that
there there are a variety ofreasons why anyone holds a
particular perspective and whywe hold a perspective. It it
isn't necessarily because, youknow, you're, you know,
unwilling to change or you'renarrow minded. There are all
(17:28):
kinds of forces that are thatare bearing down on us at any
given moment, and we're gonnarespond to them, and it makes
sense.
Nick Oswald (17:36):
Yep.
Kenneth Vogt (17:37):
So so let me let me step back a little bit though
to talk about the startingpoints for perspectives. This
illustration here that's on thescreen may be familiar to folks.
It's a it's an old Buddhiststory about what happened when a
bunch of blind men, encounteredan elephant. And because, you
(17:58):
know, one walked up to the tail,and one walked up to the tusk,
and one walked up to the trunk,and one walked up to the side,
They all had differentperspectives. Well, you know,
it's like this.
It's like that. None of themwere wrong, but all of them were
limited. And there was nothingthere was nothing that they were
failing to do, but they did lackvision. And that lack of vision
(18:24):
caused them to see things acertain way. And in the in the
telling of the tale, they alljust made declarative
statements.
It's like a rope. It's like asnake. It's like a sword.
Instead of, it appears to belike, it it might be like this.
The part you know, they theydidn't acknowledge that there
(18:46):
are other possibilities, andthat's the that's kind of the
the point that you have to beat.
Are you open to consideringother perspectives, and can you
hold more than one perspectiveat the same time? That is not
intellectually necessarily easyto do, but, you know, y'all
didn't sign up for an easy jobintellectually if you're, you
(19:10):
know, lab based scientists.You're you're doing hard
intellectual work, and one ofthe skills that is worth gaining
is being able to hold more thanone perspective at the same
time. And if you if you do that,then then you don't get passed,
then you don't find yourselfstuck in ruts. And to to go back
(19:34):
to the point you were making alittle bit ago, Nick, it also
can explain why is thisparticular perspective so
compelling, and can I can Iallow myself to be uncomfortable
enough to consider a perspectivethat doesn't look at it from
that viewpoint?
And it may be that it'ssomething you're just doing
(19:56):
privately in your own head.Right? Or it may be that now in
this paper, I have to make bothI have to make case for both
scenarios. You know? I've gottaI've gotta talk about what the
the funder would like to betrue, but I also have to talk
about what the funder would liketo not be true because I have
evidence of the part they don'tlike.
(20:18):
And and, you know, you don't youdon't wanna you don't wanna play
fast and loose with your data,obviously, but you you do wanna
consider all sides. And, youknow, there is such a thing as
risk management. In a riskmanagement, you'd wanna consider
the the outlier data. You'llwanna consider the stuff that
doesn't support the mainperspective, but it does
(20:40):
introduce some question aboutit. And and opening those
questions up may lead to furtherresearch and may lead down
rabbit holes that are worthgoing down.
You know? It but even if you'renot gonna pursue those things,
just saying them out loud getsit on the table. And maybe it'll
(21:02):
be pursued by other people, butmaybe it's just a matter of,
it's it's an adherence to tohonesty. It's an adherence to
to, you know, it's a highercharacter. We don't we don't
call something 2 +2 equals 4when it's not that certain that
(21:25):
2+2 equals 4.
2+2 equals 4 most of the time.And and we can say that we can
say that with integrity, and anddo that. Now, I mean, there are
some things that they're alwaysgonna be they always equal 4.
And and, you know, we do wannanote that too. But especially in
(21:45):
biology, things are are analog.
They're not so digital. They'renot necessarily so perfect.
We're talking aboutprobabilities rather than
certainties, and, you know, andthat's that's useful to
recognize.
Nick Oswald (22:00):
I think one way of looking at this as well, though,
is is, just noting down somestuff. Now this is off the top
of my head, so Mhmm. It mightnot be exactly right. But one of
the it strikes me that one ofthe things that that is inherent
in being a scientist is thatthere are you talked about
scientists as an science as anintellectual pursuit. It is.
(22:23):
Right? But so intellect, thatmeans you need the ability to
commute com compute and, youknow, act intelligently or think
intelligently. But you also haveto have motivation. Right? It's,
you have to have rigor.
You have create you have to havecreativity, and you have to be
able to tell a story about whatyour research is seeing overall.
(22:44):
And each of those, intellect,motivation intellectual
approach, motivational approachand discipline, creative
approach using your imagination,rigor, and storytelling, All of
those require it require you totake a different perspective,
and so you must be able to flipbetween them.
Kenneth Vogt (23:03):
Mhmm.
Nick Oswald (23:04):
And, and having one of those as the dominant, if
you're if having one of those asthe dominant will will make your
life more difficult as a sinus,I think, if you if you stick in
1 or 2 of them. If you can getthe 360, then, then that is
gonna make it much easier foryou to be a rounded scientist.
(23:25):
And I don't think that's aperfect list. Again, that was
off the top of my head, but thatis the sort of rounded, open
perspective that you youactually need, to be able to
cover all facets of the job as aof a scientist, I think.
Kenneth Vogt (23:39):
Sure. And if you consider the you know, your
fellow scientists that you mostadmire, that you that you have
the most confidence in, theyhave the broadest possible
perspective. And and I'll bet inmost cases, most of them would
not claim that their perspectiveis the whole truth. They, you
(24:01):
know, they may know know the thestate of their science better
than than anyone, and yet theyknow it can be known better. And
that's that's how we we keeppushing forward.
And we recognize that I amnaturally coming from a limited
perspective. It's I'm I amstarting from where I am. You
(24:23):
know? That's that's always thecase. And we may have spent
years years going down a certainpath, and and now we're quite,
we're quite connected to it.
And so we have to make it apoint to shake ourselves out of
that. And And I'm sure you knowpeople like that, that somebody
early on, they had some greatinsight. They had they've made
(24:47):
some great discovery, and nowtheir whole career is just about
that. And they're they'rethey're a one trick pony, and
that's all they talk about, andthat's how they see everything.
And everything gets measuredthrough that that lens, and that
is limiting.
And whereas, you know, otherfolks when they've had those
early things, they didn't allowthose early successes to to
(25:09):
stylize them. They they kepttheir options open. So I wanna
talk about 2 ways that thatcould go wrong. One is by tunnel
vision and the other is bysiloing. And they're in some
ways the same thing, but they'rethey offer the perspective from
from 2 different directions.
(25:30):
1 is about, you know, backwardsversus forwards, another is up
versus down. So tunnel vision iswhen when you look at everything
only from a narrow perspective,and there's only one way
through. And you have to go thatway. The solution to this is
always that way. That could bevery narrowing.
(25:54):
The siloing is a littledifferent. Siloing is when you
get stuck in a particulardiscipline, say. If you yeah.
It's like talking about thedifference between how a
biologist sees something and howa chemist sees something. It's a
silo.
If you if you only ever look atit through one of those
(26:17):
perspectives, if you only everlook at it mathematically, if
you only ever look at itstatistically, if you only ever
look at it, through in terms ofof viability. And and then we
miss out on on the underlyinglayers. Those are those are
(26:38):
limitations to one'sperspective. And and we all find
ourselves caught up in this onoccasion. It happens.
You know? It's just good torecognize on the right now,
okay, I'm I've got tunnelvision. Right now, I'm kinda
siloed. And then and then westart to see there's a way to
look outside of that. It'sfunny.
(27:02):
When I was I was putting theseslides together, those silos
that are there on a farm, WhereI grew up, there were silos like
that all over the place. Andand, you know, it just made
sense to have have silos. Youhad a place to store grain, and
and it was you know, it kept itsafe and kept it kept it, you
(27:23):
know, stored for long periods oftime as useful. The siloing can
be helpful to you and that, youknow, you've got a deep
perspective in in your area ofexpertise that is useful. But
it's still right there.
You know, you can't feed thecows out of the silo. You got
(27:43):
you're gonna have to pull it outof the silo and spread it around
where the livestock can get toit. Yeah. I don't have as much
experience with tunnels, but,some folks may have grown up in
places where there were caves orwhere there were mines. And it
does change your perspectivebecause you're you are closed
in.
(28:04):
And sometimes it's dark andscary. And, the to me, the the
notion of tunnel vision is is alot more frightening because I
think most of us would not liketo be accused of having tunnel
vision. But being accused of ofof being siloed is not quite as
(28:25):
scary. And in fact, we may feellike it's not my fault. I I was
put over here in thisdepartment, and I'm told to what
to do, and I have to do it thisway.
And it's just how it is. Or orthey hired me so that I would be
that statistician. That's whyI'm here. I'm supposed to look
at it that way. And that'sthat's all fine to recognize
(28:50):
that that's the what'shappening, and that's how it is.
And so it'll happen, sometimesyou will be in a setting where
you're presenting it from aparticular viewpoint, and other
people are pushing back. And yougotta recognize that that's
okay. It was good that you couldpresent it from the viewpoint
you are coming from, but it'salso good that others could take
(29:14):
issue with things because theyare seeing things from another
perspective and they're supposedto. And this allows for
collaboration. It it it freesyou up because, like, you know,
I can focus on this part of itbecause Bob is focusing on that
and Sarah is focusing on that,and I don't have to focus on
that.
(29:34):
That they got it covered, andyou can work together as a team.
And you can go deep in each ofyour own areas, which is great.
But you also obviously can learnfrom Bob, and you can learn from
Sarah. And it can inform how youlook at the, you know, the data
that you have and and theconclusions that you're drawing.
(29:56):
So, you know, don't be afraid todo that.
And not not just afraid, buttake advantage of it. Use it as
an opportunity. It it'll onlybroaden your your horizons. So
here's here's anotherinteresting thing to consider.
Since you do have a perspectiveand sometimes it's a very select
(30:20):
perspective, a singleperspective.
Is it still possible to beinnovative? Is it still possible
that new things can bediscovered, from this particular
perspective, maybe even fairlycalled limited perspective? And
the answer is yes. Sometimeslimiting your perspective allows
(30:44):
you to focus, and that's how youfind do you see patterns because
you're you're really focused ononly this part of what's going
on here. And so you will seethings that somebody who's
taking a broader view might notnotice.
It isn't that they're failing tolook. It's just that you're
laser focused. You're you're,you know that that's why there's
(31:07):
microscopes. Right? So that youcan look very, very closely at
things.
And sometimes that is indeed asource of innovation. So I guess
my point is here. I'm notlooking down on perspectives.
I'm not looking down onviewpoints or, they have their
purpose. But it is importantthat you know that you're coming
(31:31):
from this perspective.
You're coming from from thisviewpoint so that you you know
the you know the restrictions.You know the parts that are
taken out of that view. Doesthere some things that you just
you can't you can't know unlessyou look that close, but you do
need to know that, you know, inthis situation where, you know,
(31:54):
you know, you're working in thecryo lab, and at this
temperature, this is whathappens. So it's really
important to know what thetemperature was at which that
happens. Right?
That's part of the perspectiveis to know the limitations that
are the defining characteristicsof that perspective. Let me
(32:15):
pause again here and let youspeak up, Nick.
Nick Oswald (32:18):
Yep. I think this is, I think it's this is shaping
up to be quite an interestingchat, actually. I'm just noting
down some perspectives that Ihave had a a experience in which
kind of allow flip and allow orallowed me to flip and and get
really, you know, get a reallydifferent perspective, which
(32:39):
informed my, you know, how Iapproach the problem. So for
example, I worked as a with withonly biologists for a long time,
and then I moved to somewherewhere I was working with lots of
chemists. And that allowed me totake on the the chemist's
(32:59):
perspective of the same problem.
And, I was looking at, inenzymatic catalysis using
enzymes to make chemicalreactions happen. The way that
biologists look at that iscompletely different from the
way chemists look at that, andboth of them can help help
inform each other. But as abiologist, you look at it in one
(33:19):
way, and then as a chemist, youlook at it in another way. I had
an experience where I was anewbie coming into a pro into a
company where they were tryingto solve a particular problem.
There was lots of veryexperienced people in there.
And I came in. They talked aboutthe problem, and I saw a flaw in
the in the strategy only becauseI was new. Mhmm. And it turned
out to be the what they werelooking for to change it, and
(33:42):
that was an you know, it's justan an innocent perspective, if
you know, or a naiveperspective. You could the
different perspective is beingin a comfortable situation where
you don't need to make somethinghappen.
You can just keep ticking along.Or being in a pressurized sit
situation where you must makesomething happen, And those give
you a different perspectives.And then the one that I talked
(34:04):
about before about, about in thelab looking to answer a
question, or are you looking inthe lab looking to get a result?
And both of those are differentperspectives. I think that's a
it's and as you said, it's justworth noting where you are, what
perspective you have in the labat the moment, in in your work
(34:26):
or whatever you're doing.
This can be in any discipline,really.
Kenneth Vogt (34:28):
Sure.
Nick Oswald (34:29):
And what are some other perspectives that you
could flip to that could informwhat you're doing? And you can
always go back to the one youhad in the beginning as well.
You know? Yeah. Exactly.
Kenneth Vogt (34:40):
Yeah. What that leads into the next slide pretty
well. You know, sometimes it'sactually time to switch, to to
switch perspectives. And so whathappens? Are you willing to do
that?
And, you know, there may well beramifications and some of them
may not be so pleasant. Some ofthem, you know, maybe there's no
(35:00):
scientific impact, but there'spolitical impact. You know,
there's social impact. So allthose have to be considered. You
you know, if you're gonna changeperspectives, you you're better
off to do it mindfully, to beaware that this is what's
happening here.
If you find yourself justsliding into it or being
(35:22):
pressured into it, it may not bea very smooth transition. So,
you know, you wanna be able todo this. Switching perspectives
is gonna make you immensely morecapable and more rounded as a
scientist. And something youjust said, Nick, about about
your experience there there backin the lab when you were new to
(35:42):
to an operation points outsomething that if you're a
newbie, if you are younger andless experienced, it doesn't
mean you don't have valuableobservations. And sometimes it
is good for you to speak up.
Sometimes you need to be youneed to be the little boy that
says, hey. The emperor has noclothes. You know? And others
(36:05):
weren't weren't brave enough tosay it, or they were so pathed
socially or or, you know,politically that they just
couldn't do it. And you actuallygive folks, like, that cover and
then they can take the ball fromthere.
So understand you don't have tosolve every problem. But if you
have a perspective that sees,you know, sees a risk, that sees
(36:26):
a flaw, If you can't if you canvoice it, if you can communicate
it, it may well be that othersthen will pick up on that and
take it to the next step. Evenif you don't know what the next
step would be, you might see aproblem and have no idea how to
solve it. That doesn't meanothers won't know how to solve
it if they become aware thatthere's a problem. And what you
(36:48):
add is that you're the personthat points out there's
something to look at here.
So, you know, don't don't beafraid to to be engaged,
whatever level you're at. Now,and I will grant you that there
you know, there's protocol,there's there's a proper way to
introduce things, you know, youdon't wanna just be a bull in a
china shop, but, look for youropportunities to make
(37:13):
contributions even if the onlycontribution that you can offer
at the moment is to saysomething's wrong. It's okay.
That's a perspective, and it's auseful perspective, especially
when it's true. Even if it's nottrue, though, sometimes bringing
it up allows the opportunity topoint for someone else who's
experienced to point out this iswhy this isn't broken and why
(37:33):
it's okay, and it's a learningopportunity.
So
Nick Oswald (37:37):
Yeah. I would also say I've been in the situation
where I've not been the newbie,and a newbie has kind of been
reeling off ideas that, yeah, Ihad that 5 years ago. You know?
Kenneth Vogt (37:46):
And it's like, you
Nick Oswald (37:47):
know, so it's so but you must have as a as a an
experienced person, you mustgive those people the the room
to get those ideas out becauseit's a good thought exercise for
them, but also they might justcome up with a gem that
something you haven't thoughtabout because you're looking at
at it in a different way.
Kenneth Vogt (38:05):
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So be willing to switch
up whether you're you're new oryou're experienced and because
we we just don't know what'sgonna happen next, what
opportunities that, it willraise. So that was that was
everything I, wanted to covertoday.
Is there anything else, Nick,you had you wanted to bring up?
Nick Oswald (38:27):
Yeah. So just one other thing this might be
pointing out the obvious, but,we're talking about you know,
this this podcast and Bite SizeBio in general aims to help
scientists in the lab andbeyond. So I was just thinking
about, how you apply this ideaof perspective to your you know,
this can also be applied towider areas of your life. You
(38:50):
know, how do you look at thingson it? What's your habitual way
of looking at things, and isthere a different way to look at
it?
And, for example, you could yourhabitual way of looking at life
could be looking at what youdon't have and how to get it.
And instead of that, you couldflip it to, well, what if you
trained yourself or just stop toconsider, well, what about what
you do have instead of what you,just focusing on what you don't
(39:14):
have? You know? And then that'sthat's where gratitude comes
from, I guess. Yeah.
And, what about, instead ofhabitually focusing on what you
want, focus on what you need.And then how much of that you
already have? You know? It'sjust it's just perspectives, and
it and it's just so easy to toto forget that we all are
(39:36):
programmed with certainperspectives or we've habitually
taken on certain perspectives.And that We've programmed
ourselves with it in many ways.
Yeah. And and that really setsour world views. And so what
we're talking about here is likea kaleidoscope. You can click
around to different perspectivesin the lab and your life and,
and, you know, see lots morecolors.
Kenneth Vogt (39:57):
Yeah. Well, see, I told you, Nick was gonna have a
lot to say on this topic, soproved to be so.
Nick Oswald (40:03):
Well, I didn't know, but you opened up my
perspective there.
Kenneth Vogt (40:06):
Alright. Excellent. Thank you, Nick.
Nick Oswald (40:08):
Okay. Thank you, Ken, for for another very
interesting topic. I don't knowhow you keep coming up with
them. And thank you to theaudience for listening.
Kenneth Vogt (40:17):
Keep my perspectives open.
Nick Oswald (40:18):
Oh, okay. There you go. And thanks to you all for
listening in, whether that waslive today or on the on demand
later. If you've enjoyed thecontent, please subscribe to the
Happy Science on Your Favouritepodcast platform, and let your
friends know, your colleaguesknow about this so that they can
also benefit. We'll becomehaving, some other episodes
(40:41):
coming up in the near future.
You can check those out atevents.bitesizebio.com. And
until then, until next time,good luck in your research, and
goodbye from all of us at BiteSize Bio. Bye.
The Happy Scientist is brought to you by Bite Size
(41:03):
Bio, your mentor in the lab.Bite Size Bio features thousands
of articles and webinarscontributed by hundreds of PhD
scientists and scientificcompanies who freely offer their
hard won wisdom and solutions tothe bite sized bio community.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.