January 17, 2025 • 33 mins
Naked ambition is a powerful characteristic, yet it can easily become overpowering—for you and your colleagues.
This could endanger your work connections and harm your reputation, especially in situations where teamwork is highly valued.
In this episode of The Happy Scientist, explore the potent quality of ambition and how to use it most effectively to create accomplishment regarding tasks, projects, and career advancement.
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Episode Transcript
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VX (00:30):
This is the Happy Scientist podcast. Each episode is
designed to make you morefocused, more productive, and
more satisfied in the lab. Youcan find us online at
bitesizebio.com/happyscientist.Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt,
founder of the executivecoaching firm, Vera Claritas,
and doctor Nick Oswald, PhD,bioscientist, and founder of
(00:53):
Bite Size Bio.
Nick Oswald (00:59):
Hello. This is Nick Oswald welcoming you to this
Bite Size Bio webinar, whichtoday is a live episode of the
Happy Scientist podcast. If youwant to become a hap happier,
healthier, and more productivescientist, you're in the right
place. With me, as always, ismister Kenneth Vogt. And in
these sessions, we will hearfrom Ken mostly on principles
that will help shape you for ahappier and a more successful
(01:22):
career.
And along the way, I'll pitch inwith points from my personal
experience as a scientist andfrom working with Ken myself. If
you have any questions along theway, put them into the questions
box on the side of your screen,and I will put them to Ken.
Today, we will be covering howto effectively wield your
ambition. Over to you, Kent.
Ken Vogt (01:41):
Alright. Well, first off, Nick, I wanna point
something out. You used to referto me as mister Miyagi or Yoda
or Gandalf or something in theintroduction, and, well, maybe
I'm being a little bit tooambitious here.
Nick Oswald (01:55):
We can go back to that if you want.
Ken Vogt (01:59):
And and even Nick got a little ambitious today and
tried to start the start thepodcast or the the webinar
before before our producer wasquite ready. So the point being,
we wanna effectively wield ourambition. And there are times
when, you know, excitement orjust a desire to move forward
(02:20):
causes you to be overlyambitious as far as the the rest
of the world is concerned. Andin the past, we've talked about
humility, and we've recommendedit, but that doesn't exclude
healthy ambition. We we want youto be able to be ambitious in
your career, and we want you tobe ambitious in your field.
(02:42):
We want you to get things donein such a way that that, you can
make a mark in the world andthat you can make a difference
for mankind. So if that's notambitious, I don't know what is.
So we're gonna unpack ambitionand recognize that ambition is
kinda like dynamite. It'sextremely useful. It's very
(03:05):
powerful, but it's alsopotentially dangerous.
And so we wanna make sure thatthat we have a grip on it. So I
wanna start off then. Let's talkabout the dangers of ambition.
Now I'm sure that working inlabs, almost everybody has seen
a material safety data sheet,even I've seen them. I mean,
(03:28):
there's some stuff you have tobe you have to be careful with
for various reasons.
And sometimes, you look at thatMSDS, and it's it's almost
silly. It's like, really, I hadto be told that. It's just you
know, it's obvious or it's soinconsequential that doesn't
matter. But sometimes, when itcomes to your ambitious and your
(03:51):
your ambition in your career orin your present position, yeah,
you've gotta pay attention to,well, is my ambition
jeopardizing my relationships?You know, for instance, if if
you appear so competitive thatothers are put off by that or
are intimidated by that even,you know, that can that can be a
(04:13):
danger.
You know, naked ambition is apowerful characteristic, but it
can because of that, becomeoverpowering. And whether it's
overpowering for you or for yourcolleagues, you know, any it can
show up in many ways for you.You can actually find your own
(04:34):
ambition to be intimidatingbecause you may find that
sometimes you act out ofambition, and you regret the
actions you took. It's like, I Ishould've thought about that
first, or I I shouldn't havebeen so excitable. I I I
should've I should've waited fora better moment.
So those are those are thingsthat you have to watch for if
(04:57):
you're gonna be effective withyour ambition. Sometimes it has
to do with the environment thatyou're in. There there are
particular places, you know, itcould be could be your lab. It
could be your industry. It couldbe your your, your academic
institution.
It could be your company, whereambition is really looked down
(05:20):
upon or at least certain kindsof ambition. You need to be
aware of the environment. Whatcan I do that is where ambition
is gonna at least not hurt meand hopefully do me some good?
And I would make the argumentthat it's not even worth it. If
it's not doing you some good,even if it isn't hurting you,
why?
It takes energy. So, you know,you you wanna you wanna think
(05:44):
about that. You can actuallyrisk or even harm your
reputation with ambition if youif you're using it
inappropriately. There there isa time for everything under the
sun, as Solomon said, and wewanna make sure that we use our
ambition at times when it'sappropriate. If you're in an
(06:07):
environment where teamwork isextremely important, you you
gotta be careful about when youshow ambition because the
outcome needs to be best for theteam.
If you're ambitious for theteam, that actually can be a
better a better way ofapproaching it than just being
(06:29):
ambitious for yourselfindividually. But even in that
kind of environment, if you'rein an environment where where
you have to work with multipleteams, there still has to be an
overall organizationalconnection there that isn't just
about your team. It's it's notjust about, you know, my
(06:52):
department. So the those are allsome dangers that we have to
consider when we're gonna useambition. But, you know,
ambition is still it's so tasty.
It's it's it just has that sirensong, that call to you. And,
(07:14):
well, there's a reason for that.Right? There's an upside to
ambition. So, yeah, here I'vebeen here I've been been putting
it down all all the way throughthis and playing games with
y'all, but let's face it.
There's good things that comefrom being ambitious. When you
get visibility, youropportunities increase. Yep. The
(07:37):
it could be directly impactingyour career, but it could just
be about getting a betterassignment, getting getting
getting to do things that reallyinterest you. So ambition allows
you to be noticed when thoseassignments are being made.
So we we do wanna make somenoise sometimes so that we are
(07:59):
noticed by the powers that beand also so that, we're noticed
among our peers. There's nothinginherently wrong with being
competitive if you're competingfor the purpose of, let's call
it, greatness. If if you're justcompeting to win just out of
(08:19):
selfish desire, that's thatthat's nothing to particularly
write home about. But if youwant to reach higher levels, if
you wanna expand yourself, youwanna expand your group, you
wanna expand your industry, youwanna you wanna take take it to
new places, you wanna make newpositive impacts, visibility
(08:42):
will really help with that. Nowonce you're visible, you know,
you wanna you only wanna bevisible when you have a good
reputation.
If you're visible with a badreputation, it doesn't help you
much. So, again, ambition helpsyou to hone your reputation. It
makes you it helps you to startto realize there are things that
(09:03):
won't will make me look betterin the world, and there are
things that I won't. So it itallows you well, it causes you
to focus on your reputation andand to think about it and and to
give it give it properconsideration. Yeah.
I'm sure you know some peoplethat couldn't care less than
anybody thinks about them, andI'm not even knocking that. But
(09:27):
it does it does impact theiropportunities in the future. And
if they're also ambitious, butdon't care what anybody thinks,
boy, they better be wickedsmart. They they better have
evidence that they're worthputting up with. For most of us,
though, especially if you ifyou're working in a group of
smart people, they're all smart.
(09:49):
So you being smart isn't sospecial. So so that's not a
reason for them to put up withyou being quirky. Right? And in
in many cases, the the quirksthat we would prefer to have are
are they're they're just not allthat worth it. Is that, yeah, it
would be nice, but, you know,some people like to to show up
(10:11):
for work in a bathrobe andslippers, but, you know, it's
it's a the cost is too high.
Another thing that ambition isgood for is it can help you
build valuable relationships.And that is other ambitious
people, they see you and theysee this is somebody I need on
(10:31):
my team. This is or in somecases, this is a star I need to
hitch my wagon to. If and, youknow, you can use the support
too. So it's relationships cango in all kinds of directions.
They can be peer. They can besubordinates. They can be
superiors. If you can getnoticed by the right kind of
(10:53):
boss, that that kind of ambitioncan can really help you, and
somebody else can help take youplaces. Another thing that can
happen is your ambition doesn'thave to be just about you.
It could be about your team,about your group, about your
lab. If you're ambitious onbehalf of the group, well, that
(11:17):
the benefits of that ambitiontend to splash onto you too. And
because it's a a bit more itlooks a bit more altruistic. It
looks a bit more like it's notso selfish. You it is it's he
put some rose colored glasses onthings.
(11:39):
Things that might look kindashaky if it was just about you
can look better if it's aboutyour group. So it's another
effective way of of making useof ambition. So I just covered
dangers and upside. So let me,let me let Nick weigh in here
(11:59):
and see if he has anything he'dlike to add.
Nick Oswald (12:02):
No. I I think that I I guess that the only thing
that I would say about the wholethe whole subject is that, is
for me personally and for, youknow, any groups that I've
worked in, what you don't wantis to see someone who is trying
to, be ambitious at the expenseof other people. It's Mhmm. It's
(12:26):
got to be through growing thepie for everyone. Otherwise,
you're on thin ice.
You know?
Ken Vogt (12:32):
Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, there there are probably
are moments when you it is a, azero sum game where if you're
gonna get benefited to somebodyelse, you're gonna have to be
denied that benefit. That thatthat's our reality to to take
note of. But, boy, really countthe cost. Yeah.
(12:53):
Do do I really want do I wannahurt this person, or I wanna
make them an enemy? Do do Iwanna just annoy them? You know,
how how how bad will it be forthem, and how how how much will
I pay a price for that? So and,you know, something you can look
at that and go, well, the it'snot just about being a nice guy.
(13:14):
It's like, well, that wouldn'tbe very nice to me.
Yeah. Well, that's that's worthconsidering, but being nice all
the time is is not gonna get youreal far.
Nick Oswald (13:24):
Even just looking at it from a strategic point of
view, though, if your job, ifyou're, sorry, if you're looking
to be ambitious, if you'relooking to to reach a goal, is
the best strategy to compete oris the best strategy to look for
ways that you can bring otherpeople up with you or ways that
you can just add value to thewhole project or or company or
(13:48):
group or whatever it is so thatthe you you know, you make your
own reward, if you like.
Ken Vogt (13:53):
Yeah. Exactly. I mean, the the fact is science is a
very collaborative endeavor. Soif you wanna be a lone wolf, if
that's really your your leaning,I mean, you can do that, and
there are certainly some famousscientists who are that. But,
but the fact is, if you're gonnawork with others, it it it may
(14:15):
it may go easier.
Now I'm not recommending oneover the other. If you could if
you can make the lone wolf thingwork for you and and you're a
Nikola Tesla, go for it. But,not everybody's got that going
for them. So, yeah, it it's it'sworth taking a close look and
deciding what's worth it andwhat isn't. So I wanted to talk
(14:39):
about about the downsides andupsides, but from a little
different direction, from thepractical standpoint or the
application stamp or whathappens in the real world.
How do I make this work? So I'llstart I will start with the dark
side. There are times when youjust need to pump the brakes
when it comes to your ambition.You need to dial it back because
(15:03):
you're you can do this based onwatching results. Now you don't
necessarily have to just be justgo barreling in there and
shouting about how smart you areand how great your ideas are and
and and do damage.
And then, well, now you notice,well, how did others receive it?
And they didn't receive it well.Okay. Well, I'll change now.
(15:23):
Yeah.
But you kinda did some damagealready. So, you know, try to be
proactive about about yourambitions. Get try to align
yourself out first. Andremember, it's not just about
what you meant or what you aretrying to achieve. It's about
(15:44):
how others receive it.
And it's you might think, well,why do I have to jump through
that hoop? Because we're human,and humans are social. And you
could do some damage with toyour own reputation with 1
individual, and then it willspread. And you don't wanna do
(16:06):
that. So there are times whenyou gotta when you have to pull
back a little bit on yourambition or you gotta pull back
on how you apply your ambition.
It's I'm I'm not saying to justkill it, you know, to just stop
having any concern about gettinganywhere with your life or in
your field or, in your career.No. You you should be concerned
(16:27):
about those things. It's justmaybe sometimes you don't wanna
be as loud as you've been. Yeah.
And granted, this doesn't applyto everybody. Some people, what
they really need more thananything is to amp up their
ambition. When to becausethere's there's a proper time to
pump the brakes, but there therethere are times when it is not
(16:48):
proper. I just realized Ispelled brakes wrong. Oh, boy.
Nick Oswald (16:55):
I thought that was a pun. Never mind. So
Ken Vogt (16:58):
so did I for a hot second. Like, wait a minute. I
didn't make a pun? But, anywayokay. So this is an example of
something that's interesting.
If you're ambitious and you makea mistake, you might think, oh
god. The worst thing couldhappen is people are gonna
notice. No. That's not the worstthing. The worst thing is that
(17:22):
people notice and don't sayanything.
Now it's just in the background.You never and you don't know
where it's gonna pop up again.So if you find you do something
wrong, the best thing you can dois get in front of it. You if
you can own something yourself,and, again, this kinda goes back
(17:43):
to the notion of humility. Itdoesn't take away from your
ambition, but when when it iswhen you can note that, look, I
made a mistake there.
Now right now, we if if nothinggets said about this, I I don't
know how many people we havesome back of their mind, like,
can this guy not spell? What isgoing on here? You know? Now
it's been taken apart and it'sbeen made fun of, and it's it's
(18:07):
lost its juice. It has it has nopower over me now.
Now I look at these charactersin front of this this car here
and like, man, they are tryingso hard. They're it's just over
the top, and the car itself, ohmy goodness. Is that really is
that really necessary? So, youknow, so there is a time when
(18:28):
you dial back, and the dial backmay be situational, like what
we've been discussing here, butit it could be more general. You
may realize this is anenvironment that is not gonna
put up with ambition displayedin this way.
You know, you can't you can't inthis particular environment, you
can't be somebody thatinterrupts at meetings. It that
(18:50):
that will be so frowned uponthat that you'll never get
anywhere, and you could destroya lot of good you've done for
yourself just by that one thing.You see, you start to realize,
okay, there's certain ways, justbecause I think what the person
who's speaking now is talkingabout is wrong, and is is going
in the wrong direction doesn'tmean I interrupt them doesn't
(19:12):
mean I start talking over them.So and, again, you you're doing
it that way, not because you'renot right. Because if you're you
could use I'm right as an excusefor almost anything.
But it's like, how will it bereceived by others? How will
they perceive what you're doing?What will they think your
(19:33):
motivation is? Do they do theythink your motivation is because
you really care about what'sreal and what's right, or do you
just care about winning? Do youjust care about looking good in
front of other people?
You know, that that doesn't helpwith the goals of your ambition.
So let's flip to the positiveside. There there is a time when
(19:57):
this when you should be turningit up. And so you wanna look for
what are the right moments todemonstrate my ambition. And,
yeah, so part of that is to lookat at what kind of things should
I imply apply ambition to?
Well, it might be, say there's acertain project milestone that
(20:20):
you need need to meet.Demonstrating ambition about
that is a good thing, and it canit can inspire confidence in
others. Like, we we've gottamake it to the moon. We're gonna
make it. You know?
You know, having that clearmilestone can can be helpful in
focusing your ambition. Nowthere may be times when ambition
(20:45):
will absolutely advance yourcareer, and so you might look
for opportunities then. Well, ifI if if advancing my career is
my goal and I'm ambitious aboutthat, how should I do that? Are
there speaking opportunitiesthat I could take? Are there
there projects I could volunteerfor?
Can can I offer take the lead oncertain things and certain
(21:09):
initiatives? You know, Thosethose are the ways to make your
ambitions function usefully inyour career. Now you may too
have have goals that let's callthem more professional in
career. That is you wanna bewell known in your in your
industry. You and you wanna benot just well known, but but
(21:30):
respected.
Well, finish that paper. Youknow? Get it published for, you
know, as of for instance. That'sa good use of your ambition, and
they can take things forward.And, you know, Chris, there
there are people out there thatare known for the fact that they
have been published many, manytimes.
(21:51):
There are people that have madetheir whole career out of the
fact that that they getpublished a lot. Some people
have made their whole career outof the fact that they get on
stage a lot. Some people haveused it in in how they choose
where to work and where what iswhat is the most visible project
to work on? And I say where towork. It might be a particular
(22:13):
lab, but it might be particularinitiative.
And, again, you get yourself outin view, and it's being viewed
by the people you wanna beviewed by. You know, do you do
you wanna be famous with thepublic, or do you wanna be well
(22:33):
known in your industry, or doyou wanna be well known in at
your institution? You know, thethe there's different different
lenses you could do thisthrough. Then granted, you could
do more than 1 if if you havethat kind of ambition too, but
you didn't then take a step backand say, which of these
ambitions really helps me? Youknow, do you do you wanna be
(22:56):
somebody that's gonna be be onPBS, or or does that not matter
to you?
Do do you wanna be somebodythat's that is a technical
adviser on movies? Yeah. Youknow? And so sometimes people
want those kind of more call itpublic facing roles. Other
times, like, I don't care aboutwhat the man on the street
(23:18):
thinks about me.
What I care about is what thepeople in my industry, the top
of my industry think of me, and,that they think of me at all.
That that may be the kind ofthing that motivates you. And,
again, I'm not I'm not sayingany one is better or worse than
another. It ambition is gonna begonna be it's gonna be informed
(23:44):
by what it is you really wannamake of yourself, whether that's
professionally or or in yourcareer. So it's up to you.
So the first first, you have toknow yourself. Next, you have to
know your environment. Right?And and, I'll add this too. You
need to know the people that arein your orbit.
(24:04):
If there are other people thatif there are people that already
are achieving what it is youwould like to achieve or are
likely to achieve what you whatyou are to achieve, well, you
wanna know what they're about.You wanna know what's working
for them and what's not workingfor them, and you may wanna find
ways you can collaborate withthem or or or be noticed as
(24:28):
they're being noticed. So,again, I'll take a breath here
and ask you about the brakes andthe gas. Nick?
Nick Oswald (24:37):
I guess it's, I mean, one thing that struck
sprung in my mind, there is thatis it's in a way, it's all about
your intention, isn't it?
Ken Vogt (24:47):
Yeah.
Nick Oswald (24:47):
It's, it's what what is your intention and and
how does it, you know, how doesit fit with what the what with
what you actually want and withthe what the people what suits
the people around you. So thatties in with a lot of what we've
(25:07):
been talking about in, inprevious episodes, I guess.
Ken Vogt (25:11):
Yeah. Well, you know, your ambition is is kinda like a
a pet, but it's you know, somepeople keep a, you know, a
pleasant golden retriever as apet, and some people keep
wolves. You know? Is what's yourambition like? Is your ambitious
ambition hard to control?
Is and for some of us, I mean,I've set up that was me in my
(25:34):
younger years. My ambition wasjust a burning fire, and it got
me into trouble on more than oneoccasion. And and I deserve to
be in trouble for it. It was itwas not well managed, and and
that matters. I I say this aboutmyself now.
Now looking back, I don't reallyknow if I could've done it any
(25:56):
different. I was young. Youknow? I was full of adrenaline
and caffeine and testosterone.You know?
What are you gonna do? Right?But at some point, yeah, you do
have to decide, okay, what's toomuch, and where should I where
should I dial this in? The otherside of this is some folks need
to turn up their ambition. Yougotta stop telling yourself that
(26:18):
you're small or that you're youdon't matter.
You you have to start actuallybeing ambitious effectively, and
don't don't do what don't dowhat the naturally ambitious
people do automatically becauseit will look fake. Do what feels
good for you. And sometimesthat's just taking one step
(26:41):
further than you have before.It's it means raising your hand
in that meeting and speaking. Itmeans it means, you know,
getting your name added to apaper, being part of it.
And it's not, you know, I I Irecognize that getting your name
on a paper is not necessarily aneasy thing. And in fact, being
the most junior person mightmean you do the most work. But
(27:05):
that's if that's the price youpay, do it. You know? Because
everybody started off junior.
You know? So you don't start offsenior. And I'll grant you that
some people have some have someeasier ends than others, but
science, one thing that's goodabout it is it's a meritocracy,
more than a lot of other places.So you you you probably can't
(27:29):
get to the top of sciencewithout actually being good at
it. You know, maybe maybe thereare some some shortcuts for some
folks, but they can get foundout rather quickly too.
So, you know, you don't reallywant a shortcut. You want your
ambitious ambition to beeffective. So I will end with
(27:54):
talking about how to get goodresults from your ambition. The
first thing you've gotta do isknow your end game. You don't
wanna be ambitious just forambition sake.
You wanna be ambitious to getsomething of value, to achieve
something worthwhile. And, youknow, this could be something it
(28:15):
could be something that is quiteself serving, but in a non
harmful way. You know, advancingyour career is not a bad thing.
Advancing in your profession,not a bad thing. But, you know,
advancing so as to help mankind,you're okay.
That's a great thing. Right? Sobut whatever it is, you've
(28:37):
you've gotta know what it is foryou. And don't don't tell
yourself that I can only haveambitions about things that are
are gonna gonna solve worldpeace. Right?
Don't set the bar impossiblyhigh for yourself. There's
plenty of worthwhile things thatyou know, I'm I'm gonna be
(28:57):
ambitious about being betterorganized so that I can be home
in time to have dinner with mykids. That is not a bad
ambition. In fact, it's a ratherit's a rather worthy ambition.
Now granted some some ambitionswould be more properly called
lofty.
Well, if you're gonna have loftyambitions, remember, you're
gonna have to you're gonna haveto work hard for that. So
(29:19):
ambition itself won't be enough.There's the you gotta pay the
rest of the cost too. The nextthing about getting good results
from your ambition is toperiodically just check
yourself. Is this working forme?
Is my approach right now gettingthe results I'm hoping for? Am I
getting noticed like I washoping for? Am I am I am I
(29:42):
getting attention like I washoping for? Am I am I getting
opportunities like I was hopingfor? Just make sure that your
ambition is not just a waste ofenergy.
Make it count for something. Andthen finally, get feedback. You
know, you can check yourself,but sometimes an outside view
(30:02):
can be very informative. Youknow, ask somebody who's who is
trustworthy what they think ofhow you're approaching things.
What do they how how would theysee you do it?
Would they have you do more ofwhat you're doing? Would they
have you do less? Would you havehave you doing something
different? The idea too is ifyou can find people that are
(30:26):
trustworthy, but have adifferent a different
perspective than you do can beextremely helpful because they
can see things perhaps that areblind spots for you just as you
might for them. And, you know,it could be a situation where
being reciprocal about this kindof thing is the way to do it.
And, again, it's this is kind ofa this is a collaboration type
(30:48):
of effort. But, whether you'regetting feedback from yourself,
from others, make sure you getfeedback. Alright? Anything else
you would like to add there,Nick?
Nick Oswald (30:59):
No. I think that was quite an interesting
approach, actually. I I wasn't II guess I would mostly or get
interesting perspective. I thinkthat mostly I think about that
as not, gassing your ambitiontoo much, but the idea of that
you're, you know, hiding yourlight under a bushel as it were
(31:20):
is Mhmm. Is equally equallyimportant to to keep your eye
on.
So it's all about balance asusual. Something in the middle.
Ken Vogt (31:28):
Well, I mean, there are moments when you should just
pull out all the stops, and thenthere are moments when you
should shut up. You know? Andand and that's where the real
skill of this comes in. When westart to get good or recognize
one of the opportunities andwhen is the time to be patient.
Nick Oswald (31:48):
That's a good way to look at it. Okay. So at that
point, I think we'll, thank youagain, Ken, for being ambitious
and, and delivering that to us.And, thanks to everyone for, for
listening today or and ondemand. If you enjoyed this,
please, let your friends knowabout this podcast.
(32:10):
Subscribe to us in, in, eitherby signing up for Bite Size Bio.
You can find that on the on thehomepage, the link for that, or,
signing up on your, subscribingrather on your favorite podcast
platform. So until next time,good luck in your research, and
goodbye from all of us at BiteSize Bio, including mister
(32:33):
Miyagi.
Ken Vogt (32:34):
Bye, everybody. Bye.
VX (32:41):
The happy scientist is brought to you by Bite Size Bio,
your mentor in the lab. BiteSize Bio features thousands of
articles and webinarscontributed by hundreds of PhD
scientists and scientificcompanies who freely offer their
hard won wisdom and solutions tothe bite sized bio community.
This is the Happy Scientist podcast. Each episode is
designed to make you morefocused, more productive, and
more satisfied in the lab. Youcan find us online at
bitesizebio.com/happyscientist.Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt,
founder of the executivecoaching firm, Vera Claritas,
and doctor Nick Oswald, PhD,bioscientist, and founder of
(00:53):
Bite Size Bio.
Nick Oswald (00:59):
Hello. This is Nick Oswald welcoming you to this
Bite Size Bio webinar, whichtoday is a live episode of the
Happy Scientist podcast. If youwant to become a hap happier,
healthier, and more productivescientist, you're in the right
place. With me, as always, ismister Kenneth Vogt. And in
these sessions, we will hearfrom Ken mostly on principles
that will help shape you for ahappier and a more successful
(01:22):
career.
And along the way, I'll pitch inwith points from my personal
experience as a scientist andfrom working with Ken myself. If
you have any questions along theway, put them into the questions
box on the side of your screen,and I will put them to Ken.
Today, we will be covering howto effectively wield your
ambition. Over to you, Kent.
Ken Vogt (01:41):
Alright. Well, first off, Nick, I wanna point
something out. You used to referto me as mister Miyagi or Yoda
or Gandalf or something in theintroduction, and, well, maybe
I'm being a little bit tooambitious here.
Nick Oswald (01:55):
We can go back to that if you want.
Ken Vogt (01:59):
And and even Nick got a little ambitious today and
tried to start the start thepodcast or the the webinar
before before our producer wasquite ready. So the point being,
we wanna effectively wield ourambition. And there are times
when, you know, excitement orjust a desire to move forward
(02:20):
causes you to be overlyambitious as far as the the rest
of the world is concerned. Andin the past, we've talked about
humility, and we've recommendedit, but that doesn't exclude
healthy ambition. We we want youto be able to be ambitious in
your career, and we want you tobe ambitious in your field.
(02:42):
We want you to get things donein such a way that that, you can
make a mark in the world andthat you can make a difference
for mankind. So if that's notambitious, I don't know what is.
So we're gonna unpack ambitionand recognize that ambition is
kinda like dynamite. It'sextremely useful. It's very
(03:05):
powerful, but it's alsopotentially dangerous.
And so we wanna make sure thatthat we have a grip on it. So I
wanna start off then. Let's talkabout the dangers of ambition.
Now I'm sure that working inlabs, almost everybody has seen
a material safety data sheet,even I've seen them. I mean,
(03:28):
there's some stuff you have tobe you have to be careful with
for various reasons.
And sometimes, you look at thatMSDS, and it's it's almost
silly. It's like, really, I hadto be told that. It's just you
know, it's obvious or it's soinconsequential that doesn't
matter. But sometimes, when itcomes to your ambitious and your
(03:51):
your ambition in your career orin your present position, yeah,
you've gotta pay attention to,well, is my ambition
jeopardizing my relationships?You know, for instance, if if
you appear so competitive thatothers are put off by that or
are intimidated by that even,you know, that can that can be a
(04:13):
danger.
You know, naked ambition is apowerful characteristic, but it
can because of that, becomeoverpowering. And whether it's
overpowering for you or for yourcolleagues, you know, any it can
show up in many ways for you.You can actually find your own
(04:34):
ambition to be intimidatingbecause you may find that
sometimes you act out ofambition, and you regret the
actions you took. It's like, I Ishould've thought about that
first, or I I shouldn't havebeen so excitable. I I I
should've I should've waited fora better moment.
So those are those are thingsthat you have to watch for if
(04:57):
you're gonna be effective withyour ambition. Sometimes it has
to do with the environment thatyou're in. There there are
particular places, you know, itcould be could be your lab. It
could be your industry. It couldbe your your, your academic
institution.
It could be your company, whereambition is really looked down
(05:20):
upon or at least certain kindsof ambition. You need to be
aware of the environment. Whatcan I do that is where ambition
is gonna at least not hurt meand hopefully do me some good?
And I would make the argumentthat it's not even worth it. If
it's not doing you some good,even if it isn't hurting you,
why?
It takes energy. So, you know,you you wanna you wanna think
(05:44):
about that. You can actuallyrisk or even harm your
reputation with ambition if youif you're using it
inappropriately. There there isa time for everything under the
sun, as Solomon said, and wewanna make sure that we use our
ambition at times when it'sappropriate. If you're in an
(06:07):
environment where teamwork isextremely important, you you
gotta be careful about when youshow ambition because the
outcome needs to be best for theteam.
If you're ambitious for theteam, that actually can be a
better a better way ofapproaching it than just being
(06:29):
ambitious for yourselfindividually. But even in that
kind of environment, if you'rein an environment where where
you have to work with multipleteams, there still has to be an
overall organizationalconnection there that isn't just
about your team. It's it's notjust about, you know, my
(06:52):
department. So the those are allsome dangers that we have to
consider when we're gonna useambition. But, you know,
ambition is still it's so tasty.
It's it's it just has that sirensong, that call to you. And,
(07:14):
well, there's a reason for that.Right? There's an upside to
ambition. So, yeah, here I'vebeen here I've been been putting
it down all all the way throughthis and playing games with
y'all, but let's face it.
There's good things that comefrom being ambitious. When you
get visibility, youropportunities increase. Yep. The
(07:37):
it could be directly impactingyour career, but it could just
be about getting a betterassignment, getting getting
getting to do things that reallyinterest you. So ambition allows
you to be noticed when thoseassignments are being made.
So we we do wanna make somenoise sometimes so that we are
(07:59):
noticed by the powers that beand also so that, we're noticed
among our peers. There's nothinginherently wrong with being
competitive if you're competingfor the purpose of, let's call
it, greatness. If if you're justcompeting to win just out of
(08:19):
selfish desire, that's thatthat's nothing to particularly
write home about. But if youwant to reach higher levels, if
you wanna expand yourself, youwanna expand your group, you
wanna expand your industry, youwanna you wanna take take it to
new places, you wanna make newpositive impacts, visibility
(08:42):
will really help with that. Nowonce you're visible, you know,
you wanna you only wanna bevisible when you have a good
reputation.
If you're visible with a badreputation, it doesn't help you
much. So, again, ambition helpsyou to hone your reputation. It
makes you it helps you to startto realize there are things that
(09:03):
won't will make me look betterin the world, and there are
things that I won't. So it itallows you well, it causes you
to focus on your reputation andand to think about it and and to
give it give it properconsideration. Yeah.
I'm sure you know some peoplethat couldn't care less than
anybody thinks about them, andI'm not even knocking that. But
(09:27):
it does it does impact theiropportunities in the future. And
if they're also ambitious, butdon't care what anybody thinks,
boy, they better be wickedsmart. They they better have
evidence that they're worthputting up with. For most of us,
though, especially if you ifyou're working in a group of
smart people, they're all smart.
(09:49):
So you being smart isn't sospecial. So so that's not a
reason for them to put up withyou being quirky. Right? And in
in many cases, the the quirksthat we would prefer to have are
are they're they're just not allthat worth it. Is that, yeah, it
would be nice, but, you know,some people like to to show up
(10:11):
for work in a bathrobe andslippers, but, you know, it's
it's a the cost is too high.
Another thing that ambition isgood for is it can help you
build valuable relationships.And that is other ambitious
people, they see you and theysee this is somebody I need on
(10:31):
my team. This is or in somecases, this is a star I need to
hitch my wagon to. If and, youknow, you can use the support
too. So it's relationships cango in all kinds of directions.
They can be peer. They can besubordinates. They can be
superiors. If you can getnoticed by the right kind of
(10:53):
boss, that that kind of ambitioncan can really help you, and
somebody else can help take youplaces. Another thing that can
happen is your ambition doesn'thave to be just about you.
It could be about your team,about your group, about your
lab. If you're ambitious onbehalf of the group, well, that
(11:17):
the benefits of that ambitiontend to splash onto you too. And
because it's a a bit more itlooks a bit more altruistic. It
looks a bit more like it's notso selfish. You it is it's he
put some rose colored glasses onthings.
(11:39):
Things that might look kindashaky if it was just about you
can look better if it's aboutyour group. So it's another
effective way of of making useof ambition. So I just covered
dangers and upside. So let me,let me let Nick weigh in here
(11:59):
and see if he has anything he'dlike to add.
Nick Oswald (12:02):
No. I I think that I I guess that the only thing
that I would say about the wholethe whole subject is that, is
for me personally and for, youknow, any groups that I've
worked in, what you don't wantis to see someone who is trying
to, be ambitious at the expenseof other people. It's Mhmm. It's
(12:26):
got to be through growing thepie for everyone. Otherwise,
you're on thin ice.
You know?
Ken Vogt (12:32):
Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, there there are probably
are moments when you it is a, azero sum game where if you're
gonna get benefited to somebodyelse, you're gonna have to be
denied that benefit. That thatthat's our reality to to take
note of. But, boy, really countthe cost. Yeah.
(12:53):
Do do I really want do I wannahurt this person, or I wanna
make them an enemy? Do do Iwanna just annoy them? You know,
how how how bad will it be forthem, and how how how much will
I pay a price for that? So and,you know, something you can look
at that and go, well, the it'snot just about being a nice guy.
(13:14):
It's like, well, that wouldn'tbe very nice to me.
Yeah. Well, that's that's worthconsidering, but being nice all
the time is is not gonna get youreal far.
Nick Oswald (13:24):
Even just looking at it from a strategic point of
view, though, if your job, ifyou're, sorry, if you're looking
to be ambitious, if you'relooking to to reach a goal, is
the best strategy to compete oris the best strategy to look for
ways that you can bring otherpeople up with you or ways that
you can just add value to thewhole project or or company or
(13:48):
group or whatever it is so thatthe you you know, you make your
own reward, if you like.
Ken Vogt (13:53):
Yeah. Exactly. I mean, the the fact is science is a
very collaborative endeavor. Soif you wanna be a lone wolf, if
that's really your your leaning,I mean, you can do that, and
there are certainly some famousscientists who are that. But,
but the fact is, if you're gonnawork with others, it it it may
(14:15):
it may go easier.
Now I'm not recommending oneover the other. If you could if
you can make the lone wolf thingwork for you and and you're a
Nikola Tesla, go for it. But,not everybody's got that going
for them. So, yeah, it it's it'sworth taking a close look and
deciding what's worth it andwhat isn't. So I wanted to talk
(14:39):
about about the downsides andupsides, but from a little
different direction, from thepractical standpoint or the
application stamp or whathappens in the real world.
How do I make this work? So I'llstart I will start with the dark
side. There are times when youjust need to pump the brakes
when it comes to your ambition.You need to dial it back because
(15:03):
you're you can do this based onwatching results. Now you don't
necessarily have to just be justgo barreling in there and
shouting about how smart you areand how great your ideas are and
and and do damage.
And then, well, now you notice,well, how did others receive it?
And they didn't receive it well.Okay. Well, I'll change now.
(15:23):
Yeah.
But you kinda did some damagealready. So, you know, try to be
proactive about about yourambitions. Get try to align
yourself out first. Andremember, it's not just about
what you meant or what you aretrying to achieve. It's about
(15:44):
how others receive it.
And it's you might think, well,why do I have to jump through
that hoop? Because we're human,and humans are social. And you
could do some damage with toyour own reputation with 1
individual, and then it willspread. And you don't wanna do
(16:06):
that. So there are times whenyou gotta when you have to pull
back a little bit on yourambition or you gotta pull back
on how you apply your ambition.
It's I'm I'm not saying to justkill it, you know, to just stop
having any concern about gettinganywhere with your life or in
your field or, in your career.No. You you should be concerned
(16:27):
about those things. It's justmaybe sometimes you don't wanna
be as loud as you've been. Yeah.
And granted, this doesn't applyto everybody. Some people, what
they really need more thananything is to amp up their
ambition. When to becausethere's there's a proper time to
pump the brakes, but there therethere are times when it is not
(16:48):
proper. I just realized Ispelled brakes wrong. Oh, boy.
Nick Oswald (16:55):
I thought that was a pun. Never mind. So
Ken Vogt (16:58):
so did I for a hot second. Like, wait a minute. I
didn't make a pun? But, anywayokay. So this is an example of
something that's interesting.
If you're ambitious and you makea mistake, you might think, oh
god. The worst thing couldhappen is people are gonna
notice. No. That's not the worstthing. The worst thing is that
(17:22):
people notice and don't sayanything.
Now it's just in the background.You never and you don't know
where it's gonna pop up again.So if you find you do something
wrong, the best thing you can dois get in front of it. You if
you can own something yourself,and, again, this kinda goes back
(17:43):
to the notion of humility. Itdoesn't take away from your
ambition, but when when it iswhen you can note that, look, I
made a mistake there.
Now right now, we if if nothinggets said about this, I I don't
know how many people we havesome back of their mind, like,
can this guy not spell? What isgoing on here? You know? Now
it's been taken apart and it'sbeen made fun of, and it's it's
(18:07):
lost its juice. It has it has nopower over me now.
Now I look at these charactersin front of this this car here
and like, man, they are tryingso hard. They're it's just over
the top, and the car itself, ohmy goodness. Is that really is
that really necessary? So, youknow, so there is a time when
(18:28):
you dial back, and the dial backmay be situational, like what
we've been discussing here, butit it could be more general. You
may realize this is anenvironment that is not gonna
put up with ambition displayedin this way.
You know, you can't you can't inthis particular environment, you
can't be somebody thatinterrupts at meetings. It that
(18:50):
that will be so frowned uponthat that you'll never get
anywhere, and you could destroya lot of good you've done for
yourself just by that one thing.You see, you start to realize,
okay, there's certain ways, justbecause I think what the person
who's speaking now is talkingabout is wrong, and is is going
in the wrong direction doesn'tmean I interrupt them doesn't
(19:12):
mean I start talking over them.So and, again, you you're doing
it that way, not because you'renot right. Because if you're you
could use I'm right as an excusefor almost anything.
But it's like, how will it bereceived by others? How will
they perceive what you're doing?What will they think your
(19:33):
motivation is? Do they do theythink your motivation is because
you really care about what'sreal and what's right, or do you
just care about winning? Do youjust care about looking good in
front of other people?
You know, that that doesn't helpwith the goals of your ambition.
So let's flip to the positiveside. There there is a time when
(19:57):
this when you should be turningit up. And so you wanna look for
what are the right moments todemonstrate my ambition. And,
yeah, so part of that is to lookat at what kind of things should
I imply apply ambition to?
Well, it might be, say there's acertain project milestone that
(20:20):
you need need to meet.Demonstrating ambition about
that is a good thing, and it canit can inspire confidence in
others. Like, we we've gottamake it to the moon. We're gonna
make it. You know?
You know, having that clearmilestone can can be helpful in
focusing your ambition. Nowthere may be times when ambition
(20:45):
will absolutely advance yourcareer, and so you might look
for opportunities then. Well, ifI if if advancing my career is
my goal and I'm ambitious aboutthat, how should I do that? Are
there speaking opportunitiesthat I could take? Are there
there projects I could volunteerfor?
Can can I offer take the lead oncertain things and certain
(21:09):
initiatives? You know, Thosethose are the ways to make your
ambitions function usefully inyour career. Now you may too
have have goals that let's callthem more professional in
career. That is you wanna bewell known in your in your
industry. You and you wanna benot just well known, but but
(21:30):
respected.
Well, finish that paper. Youknow? Get it published for, you
know, as of for instance. That'sa good use of your ambition, and
they can take things forward.And, you know, Chris, there
there are people out there thatare known for the fact that they
have been published many, manytimes.
(21:51):
There are people that have madetheir whole career out of the
fact that that they getpublished a lot. Some people
have made their whole career outof the fact that they get on
stage a lot. Some people haveused it in in how they choose
where to work and where what iswhat is the most visible project
to work on? And I say where towork. It might be a particular
(22:13):
lab, but it might be particularinitiative.
And, again, you get yourself outin view, and it's being viewed
by the people you wanna beviewed by. You know, do you do
you wanna be famous with thepublic, or do you wanna be well
(22:33):
known in your industry, or doyou wanna be well known in at
your institution? You know, thethe there's different different
lenses you could do thisthrough. Then granted, you could
do more than 1 if if you havethat kind of ambition too, but
you didn't then take a step backand say, which of these
ambitions really helps me? Youknow, do you do you wanna be
(22:56):
somebody that's gonna be be onPBS, or or does that not matter
to you?
Do do you wanna be somebodythat's that is a technical
adviser on movies? Yeah. Youknow? And so sometimes people
want those kind of more call itpublic facing roles. Other
times, like, I don't care aboutwhat the man on the street
(23:18):
thinks about me.
What I care about is what thepeople in my industry, the top
of my industry think of me, and,that they think of me at all.
That that may be the kind ofthing that motivates you. And,
again, I'm not I'm not sayingany one is better or worse than
another. It ambition is gonna begonna be it's gonna be informed
(23:44):
by what it is you really wannamake of yourself, whether that's
professionally or or in yourcareer. So it's up to you.
So the first first, you have toknow yourself. Next, you have to
know your environment. Right?And and, I'll add this too. You
need to know the people that arein your orbit.
(24:04):
If there are other people thatif there are people that already
are achieving what it is youwould like to achieve or are
likely to achieve what you whatyou are to achieve, well, you
wanna know what they're about.You wanna know what's working
for them and what's not workingfor them, and you may wanna find
ways you can collaborate withthem or or or be noticed as
(24:28):
they're being noticed. So,again, I'll take a breath here
and ask you about the brakes andthe gas. Nick?
Nick Oswald (24:37):
I guess it's, I mean, one thing that struck
sprung in my mind, there is thatis it's in a way, it's all about
your intention, isn't it?
Ken Vogt (24:47):
Yeah.
Nick Oswald (24:47):
It's, it's what what is your intention and and
how does it, you know, how doesit fit with what the what with
what you actually want and withthe what the people what suits
the people around you. So thatties in with a lot of what we've
(25:07):
been talking about in, inprevious episodes, I guess.
Ken Vogt (25:11):
Yeah. Well, you know, your ambition is is kinda like a
a pet, but it's you know, somepeople keep a, you know, a
pleasant golden retriever as apet, and some people keep
wolves. You know? Is what's yourambition like? Is your ambitious
ambition hard to control?
Is and for some of us, I mean,I've set up that was me in my
(25:34):
younger years. My ambition wasjust a burning fire, and it got
me into trouble on more than oneoccasion. And and I deserve to
be in trouble for it. It was itwas not well managed, and and
that matters. I I say this aboutmyself now.
Now looking back, I don't reallyknow if I could've done it any
(25:56):
different. I was young. Youknow? I was full of adrenaline
and caffeine and testosterone.You know?
What are you gonna do? Right?But at some point, yeah, you do
have to decide, okay, what's toomuch, and where should I where
should I dial this in? The otherside of this is some folks need
to turn up their ambition. Yougotta stop telling yourself that
(26:18):
you're small or that you're youdon't matter.
You you have to start actuallybeing ambitious effectively, and
don't don't do what don't dowhat the naturally ambitious
people do automatically becauseit will look fake. Do what feels
good for you. And sometimesthat's just taking one step
(26:41):
further than you have before.It's it means raising your hand
in that meeting and speaking. Itmeans it means, you know,
getting your name added to apaper, being part of it.
And it's not, you know, I I Irecognize that getting your name
on a paper is not necessarily aneasy thing. And in fact, being
the most junior person mightmean you do the most work. But
(27:05):
that's if that's the price youpay, do it. You know? Because
everybody started off junior.
You know? So you don't start offsenior. And I'll grant you that
some people have some have someeasier ends than others, but
science, one thing that's goodabout it is it's a meritocracy,
more than a lot of other places.So you you you probably can't
(27:29):
get to the top of sciencewithout actually being good at
it. You know, maybe maybe thereare some some shortcuts for some
folks, but they can get foundout rather quickly too.
So, you know, you don't reallywant a shortcut. You want your
ambitious ambition to beeffective. So I will end with
(27:54):
talking about how to get goodresults from your ambition. The
first thing you've gotta do isknow your end game. You don't
wanna be ambitious just forambition sake.
You wanna be ambitious to getsomething of value, to achieve
something worthwhile. And, youknow, this could be something it
(28:15):
could be something that is quiteself serving, but in a non
harmful way. You know, advancingyour career is not a bad thing.
Advancing in your profession,not a bad thing. But, you know,
advancing so as to help mankind,you're okay.
That's a great thing. Right? Sobut whatever it is, you've
(28:37):
you've gotta know what it is foryou. And don't don't tell
yourself that I can only haveambitions about things that are
are gonna gonna solve worldpeace. Right?
Don't set the bar impossiblyhigh for yourself. There's
plenty of worthwhile things thatyou know, I'm I'm gonna be
(28:57):
ambitious about being betterorganized so that I can be home
in time to have dinner with mykids. That is not a bad
ambition. In fact, it's a ratherit's a rather worthy ambition.
Now granted some some ambitionswould be more properly called
lofty.
Well, if you're gonna have loftyambitions, remember, you're
gonna have to you're gonna haveto work hard for that. So
(29:19):
ambition itself won't be enough.There's the you gotta pay the
rest of the cost too. The nextthing about getting good results
from your ambition is toperiodically just check
yourself. Is this working forme?
Is my approach right now gettingthe results I'm hoping for? Am I
getting noticed like I washoping for? Am I am I am I
(29:42):
getting attention like I washoping for? Am I am I getting
opportunities like I was hopingfor? Just make sure that your
ambition is not just a waste ofenergy.
Make it count for something. Andthen finally, get feedback. You
know, you can check yourself,but sometimes an outside view
(30:02):
can be very informative. Youknow, ask somebody who's who is
trustworthy what they think ofhow you're approaching things.
What do they how how would theysee you do it?
Would they have you do more ofwhat you're doing? Would they
have you do less? Would you havehave you doing something
different? The idea too is ifyou can find people that are
(30:26):
trustworthy, but have adifferent a different
perspective than you do can beextremely helpful because they
can see things perhaps that areblind spots for you just as you
might for them. And, you know,it could be a situation where
being reciprocal about this kindof thing is the way to do it.
And, again, it's this is kind ofa this is a collaboration type
(30:48):
of effort. But, whether you'regetting feedback from yourself,
from others, make sure you getfeedback. Alright? Anything else
you would like to add there,Nick?
Nick Oswald (30:59):
No. I think that was quite an interesting
approach, actually. I I wasn't II guess I would mostly or get
interesting perspective. I thinkthat mostly I think about that
as not, gassing your ambitiontoo much, but the idea of that
you're, you know, hiding yourlight under a bushel as it were
(31:20):
is Mhmm. Is equally equallyimportant to to keep your eye
on.
So it's all about balance asusual. Something in the middle.
Ken Vogt (31:28):
Well, I mean, there are moments when you should just
pull out all the stops, and thenthere are moments when you
should shut up. You know? Andand and that's where the real
skill of this comes in. When westart to get good or recognize
one of the opportunities andwhen is the time to be patient.
Nick Oswald (31:48):
That's a good way to look at it. Okay. So at that
point, I think we'll, thank youagain, Ken, for being ambitious
and, and delivering that to us.And, thanks to everyone for, for
listening today or and ondemand. If you enjoyed this,
please, let your friends knowabout this podcast.
(32:10):
Subscribe to us in, in, eitherby signing up for Bite Size Bio.
You can find that on the on thehomepage, the link for that, or,
signing up on your, subscribingrather on your favorite podcast
platform. So until next time,good luck in your research, and
goodbye from all of us at BiteSize Bio, including mister
(32:33):
Miyagi.
Ken Vogt (32:34):
Bye, everybody. Bye.
VX (32:41):
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