March 14, 2025 • 42 mins
#81 — Periodically directing your gaze inward can clarify your current position, past journey, and future aspirations.
In this episode of The Happy Scientist, explore the vital practice of taking a self-inventory.
Hear how to conduct this introspection effectively—steering clear of overly positive illusions, harsh self-criticism, and potential disappointment.
Plus, get practical strategies for maintaining a balanced and honest self-assessment.
What you learn will ultimately foster personal growth and resilience in your scientific career and ensure continuous progress without overwhelming yourself.
Watch or Listen to all episodes of The Happy Scientist podcast here: https://thehappyscientist.bitesizebio.com
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Episode Transcript
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VX (00:30):
This is the Happy Scientist podcast. Each episode is
designed to make you morefocused, more productive, and
more satisfied in the lab. Youcan find us online at
bitesizebio.com/happyscientist.Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt,
founder of the executivecoaching firm, Vera Claritas,
and doctor Nick Oswald, PhD,bioscientist, and founder of
(00:53):
Bite Size Bio.
Nick Oswald (01:00):
Hello. This is Nick Oswald welcoming you to this
episode of the Happy Scientistpodcast. If you want to become a
happier, healthier, and moreproductive scientist, you are in
the right place. With me asalways is the Bite sized Bio
team's mister Miyagi or maybeDumbledore, mister Kenneth Vogt.
In these sessions, we'll hearfrom Ken mostly on the
(01:21):
principles that will help shapeyou for a happier and more
successful life and career.
And along the way, I'll pitch inwith points from my personal
experience as a scientist andfrom working with Ken. If you
have any questions along theway, put them into the questions
box on the side of your screen,and I'll put them to Ken. So
today, we are talking about it'sa bit of a mouthful, this one
actually. Objectiveintrospection to strengthen your
(01:44):
scientific career. Okay, Ken.
What is that all about?
Kenneth Vogt (01:48):
There you go. Well, honestly, I'm gonna blame
that title on my editor. He hesmartened it up. But, like, you
can think of it a far far moresimply as look at yourself to
see how you're impacting yourown career. You could think
about this.
You can strengthen your careerby advancing it. You could also
(02:10):
strengthen your career byprotecting it. And the way we're
gonna look at that today isthrough self examination, seeing
where you really are. How areyou really being? What are you
getting done?
What aren't you getting done?How are you being viewed by
others? So there's, there'squite a bit to talk about here,
so let's jump right in. So, youknow, the first question you
(02:32):
might ask yourself is like, oh,wait a minute. This sounds like
a lot of work.
Why should I bother to examinemyself? I'm already knee deep in
what I'm supposed to be doingand whether other people get it.
It's not my problem. But, youknow, at any given moment, you
really only have right now. Whatwhat happened in the past is
(02:52):
already done.
You're not changing that. Thefuture isn't here yet. In this
moment of now is when you havethe opportunity. It's so it's
where you are, when you are. Andand you can also add the the
knowledge of the past and thefuture into that.
That is, you know, where haveyou been? What what has been
(03:16):
going on? What got you to here?That's worth being aware of. And
to examine it from just your ownpersonal perspective, how has my
past happened?
How did it help me? How did itget me here? How did it create
obstacles? What opportunitiesdid it help? Which ones did it
(03:36):
hurt?
You're you're that can only comefrom some kind of examination.
Now you and then there's thefuture. It's like, well, where
do I wanna end up? And this isgonna get me there. That you
know, these are all all selfinquiries.
But remember, even if you lookat that, go, look, I don't want
I don't wanna be playing thatgame of self inquiry. I just
(03:58):
don't feel like it. Well, fine.Except others will be examining
you. And, I mean, I we all knowthat for sure.
I mean, even when it comes downto just something simple like
being assessed by your directsuperior. You know, it's not
done with any kind of, you know,they're not trying to hurt you.
(04:18):
They're not, you know, they'renot out to get you. They're not
trying to they're not trying tocompete with you. They're just
it's just their job to assessthe employees that work for
them.
You're one of them. That's howit is. That's gonna be
happening. And, of course, thereare people with with not so
great motives that are competingwith you, and they're gonna be
examining you too, and it'sgonna happen. So you have to
(04:40):
have a plan of of what you'regonna do.
And I'm not saying that it hasto be all encompassing because,
obviously, there's a lot of,technical knowledge that is
necessary to do your job. Andyou gotta put your focus there.
You can't only be focusing onthe politics in the lab. Right?
But, but you do need to seewhat's actually there.
(05:03):
So I will pause for a second andsee if Nick has anything to add
here.
Nick Oswald (05:09):
I used to give a talk about the about alternative
careers for scientists. Andthere's probably it's probably
somewhere on my side. If not,I'll do it again. But one of the
things that exactly addressesexactly this, one of the points
in that talk. And and the theargument that I made, maybe it's
less now because I startedmaking this talk about ten years
(05:32):
ago.
It's maybe less now. But there'sthis particular blueprint in
science for how your career willwill go. There's a classic path.
And when you start off on yourcareer, you tend to think you're
gonna follow that path. And, andand the idea was to stop and do
(05:54):
what you're doing is toreexamine.
Is this still what you want? Isthis still what you want? Is it
still working? Do it on aregular basis so that you don't
do what many many people do,which is just they they kind of,
at some point, realize this isnot working, and I've gone quite
far down here. And it's not whatI wanted.
So from that one standpoint,that that that is that that's
(06:15):
what pops out at me. But, somany different reasons to
different ways to look at it aswell, which I guess you're
gonna, you're gonna dive into.
Kenneth Vogt (06:26):
Yep. Yeah. And I mean, there are several people
at Bite Size Bio and some thathave worked for Bite Size Bio in
the past. This is exactly whathappened to them. They're very
capable scientists, but theyfound the classical path wasn't
totally ringing their chime.
You know, and these are notpeople who were failures in the
lab. They're it's just theyrealized this isn't really what
(06:49):
I wanna be. So, you know, yougotta be open to that. But if
you don't do that selfexamination, you will never
know. You'll just know that I'mnot having a good time here.
I don't know why and but I getyou don't have to just suck it
up. There are options.
Nick Oswald (07:06):
Yeah. I mean, I mean, the the one thing about
the classical path now, which iswhy I said maybe it's slightly
different, is that people know alot more now that that it's more
than likely you will not be ableto follow that path in just a
pure numbers game. So, you youknow, there are less positions
(07:26):
at the top than, the number ofpeople entering the system. But
as a but it's besides the point,you're the one data point in,
you know, in the the wholesphere so you can do any you can
do anything you want. You thethe way to navigate it is not to
be just pulled along by thetide.
The way the way to navigate itis to figure out what you want
(07:49):
to do. And one of the keyelements of that is is checking
in with yourself in some of theways you're gonna suggest to
make sure that you're going inthe direction that you want to,
not that a direction not just adirection that seemed reasonable
to you or to someone else theyears ago.
Kenneth Vogt (08:06):
Right. Right. Well, this segues into my next
topic pretty well. If you'regonna do some kind of self
examination, I mean, it's goodto know the environment, like
what you were talking about herea minute ago, Nick, that, you
know, maybe you've playedbasketball on the school team
since you were in middle school.You know?
(08:28):
But as you go up and up and upand it's high school and then
it's college and thenprofessionally, there aren't
that many openings forprofessional basketball players.
You know, if you want I mean, ifyou're somebody who's really
that good, you can get to thatspot. And but some of it is is
more than just skill. It's aboutopportunity, you know, it's
(08:49):
about luck. It's aboutconnections.
And there are a lot of otherthings that could be done with
the same set of skills. So Iwill start off by saying that
when doing these kind of selfexaminations, be kind to
yourself. It isn't about makinga a just a brutal, bright like
examination of my every failingand my every deficiency, and
(09:13):
it's not like that. You you getto choose your battles, and you
don't have to win every time.There there there there probably
have been times when you've goneafter something and didn't get
it and somebody else did.
It's not the end of the world.Watch for more opportunities.
Keep your eyes open and keep,you know, keep looking at, well,
(09:34):
what is there something I shouldhave built there? Is it that I
needed to do better? Was I notdid I not test as well?
Did I not demonstrate my skillas well? Or did I just plain not
have the skill to demonstrate?And I need to bolster that. I
mean, it's good to know thesethings and recognize them. And
it's also good to know that Ijust I just wasn't in the
(09:54):
political position to do this,so and and I couldn't have been.
So there's no reason to beatourselves up about that stuff.
Because, you know, selfrecrimination, it it serves no
useful purpose. Sometimes peoplethink, well, I'm being humble.
That's not humility. That's selfhatred.
It's not the same thing. We wejust wanna see what is actually
(10:16):
there. So you the bottom linehere is you don't need to fear
self examination. It's not gonnahurt you. It will only clarify
some things.
And, yeah, you may see somethings you didn't wish were
there, but wishing them awayisn't working, is it? So better
to know. And because then thepossibilities open up for, well,
(10:37):
what could I do about this? Youknow? And maybe the answer to
this not is there's nothing Ican do about it.
But often, it's like you can'tsee the possibilities of how to
improve your situation until youacknowledge your situation. So,
again, I will pause for a minutethere. Is there anything you
wanna say about that, Nick?
Nick Oswald (11:00):
I guess the the what what happens a lot in
science that I've seen is theoverachiever syndrome.
Kenneth Vogt (11:07):
Mhmm.
Nick Oswald (11:08):
And this is the, you know, that so people will
kind of fall into that trap. I Iwould say just on the the side
of being kind to yourselfbecause,
Kenneth Vogt (11:20):
you know, you you you to
Nick Oswald (11:22):
get where you are at the moment, you had to you
had to put in it, an an amountof work and focus that shows
that it's you're doing yourbest, and that's all you can do
at any moment. You can do yourbest, and then you can make the
choices that are in front ofyou. But I but I I think the
tendency, like, especiallyamongst the ones that are
(11:44):
overachievers, is to to be hardon yourself, which is
counterproductive. You know? Youyou might not fit the mold.
I didn't fit the mold as ascientist. I don't it turned out
once I got into the lab that myskill set was not in line with
what it took to be a scientist.It's just a different makeup,
you know. And that wasn't myfault. Like, that's just the way
(12:07):
that that's not something to behard on myself about.
It's just the way that it was.And so now then I chose
something else because I becameaware of that. So kindness is to
yourself is always the bestoption, I think.
Kenneth Vogt (12:21):
So I wanna do a little to defend Nick here. Bite
Size Bio started because he hadscientific experience to share.
He he had learned sometechniques that were really
useful for other people. So theoriginal content on Bite Size
Bio was all Nick. So it's notlike, okay, he failed in
science, not even close.
(12:42):
But at the end of the day,recognition of it's more than
just this knowledge. There'sthere's an outlook. There's this
there's there's skills, butthere's also a propensity toward
certain behaviors and certainenvironments. And and he saw
himself, and he knew and he knewthat he wanted to make a shift
(13:02):
to to make that work the best.So now I I I like what you're
talking about, Nick, about thethe achievers that are among
scientists.
So let's shift to that. Howabout you folks? When is it time
to be brutally honest? You know,you wanna see yourself. You you
(13:23):
wanna avoid the blind spots.
And it's the stuff you don'tknow you don't know is what gets
you in the end. That's that'sthe bugaboo. And we can you
know, you can put on your rosecolored glasses and only see
your strong points and only seethe, you know, the hard work
you've already done and andwhat, you know, the level you've
(13:46):
already risen to, but it's it'sa trap. Self deception can get
you. I don't care how smart youare, how experienced you are,
how imaginative you are.
You wanna see what is actuallythere. And so in in those
moments of self examination,it's not so much to make an
(14:07):
examination of, let me look atall the all the stuff that shows
how great I am. I I wanna Iwanna be able to pat myself on
the back. I wanna be able tohide behind the things I'm good
at, and I want to hide behindthe recognition I've gotten from
others for that. But hidingisn't really gonna get you what
(14:27):
you want.
It it won't protect you evenwhere you are. So seeing what
actually is and realizing thisis a flaw, this is a weakness,
this is a gap. Again, once youacknowledge those things, well,
now you can start to seesolutions to that. Now you can
get creative about, well, whatdo I wanna do about that? How do
(14:50):
I wanna approach it?
And for some people, it'sliterally more education. Some
people, it's I wanna go back andget a postdoc as opposed to to,
you know, work for a commerciallab at this time. You know?
There's it will it will make yourecognize that maybe there is a
easier road for me here or orjust a smoother road for my
(15:14):
circumstances at this time. And,you know, keep in mind too, when
you make choices these days,it's not gonna be the thing
you're gonna do for the rest ofyour career and retire with the
gold watch.
That those days are long gone.They were they were gone from my
grandfather, you know, and I'mnot young. So for for most of
you who are probably hearingthis this, you can't think like
(15:38):
that. It's just not how the howthe world will be operating.
Nick Oswald (15:44):
On the other hand, you can be you can be brutally
honest and be kind to yourself.Yeah. Those are not mutually
exclusive.
Kenneth Vogt (15:54):
Yeah. Exact yeah. That's that's a really good
point. This is this isn't amatter of some people should be
kind and some people should beself brutal. Sure.
We all need both when we haveour moments.
Nick Oswald (16:06):
I realized that I was nowhere near green fingered
enough to be a scientist. Right?Or for it to be comfortable for
me to be a scientist. But thatthat was that was being brutally
honest with myself, but I didn'tbeat myself up about it. I I
just thought, okay.
So what are my strengths, andwhat way do I want to go?
Kenneth Vogt (16:24):
So is being green fingered what a biologist would
call, what a gardener would callit having a green thumb?
Nick Oswald (16:30):
Exactly the same thing. Well, we we have the same
green fingered in in The UK, butit's it's the same that it's
it's the gardening analogy. Ittakes a little bit of skill,
that is intangible skill to tobe a sinus. And, and I certainly
didn't have that. So, yeah, thatthat was that was the brutal
(16:50):
brutal truth for me.
So, yeah. But that that I didn'tbeat myself up about it. That's
the way it was. And then on onthe go. It was useful
information for choosing what todo next.
Kenneth Vogt (17:02):
Right. Right.
Nick Oswald (17:03):
It did take me ten years to figure it out, by
Kenneth Vogt (17:04):
the way. I didn't mean to get
Nick Oswald (17:06):
Well,
Kenneth Vogt (17:06):
you know, that that's an interesting thing to
say. It wasn't ten years offailure either.
Nick Oswald (17:12):
No, no. It was ten years
Kenneth Vogt (17:14):
of doing the job. Yeah.
Nick Oswald (17:15):
It was ten years of trying to overcome that hurdle
and then realizing, oh, wait aminute.
Kenneth Vogt (17:22):
Well, you know, this is an interesting thing
about the scientific endeavor.Yeah. Of course, there's a lot
of math and statistics and datato analyze. That that's all
true, and that's all very logicbased and can can be very black
and white. But the fact isyou're dealing with living
things, and there is there isthat that dark area.
(17:46):
Now I say dark, not like darklyevil, but dark like unseen that
has to do with life and how itprogresses. And and I don't I
don't mean human life. I meanbasic life. There there's only
so much we actually understandabout that. And and we're seeing
a a facsimile of reality, Andyou're operating on that fix
(18:07):
facsimile.
And, of course, you wanna getgood at it. They're at least as
good as one can be or as good asis typical. But but we're you're
still dealing with a lot ofmystery. You know, power to you
for that. And it requires a lotof creativity and power to you
for that.
You ought to do it. And you haveto you have to engage yourself
(18:28):
on that to get it done. So tomove on to the next thought on
that. So there's selfexamination versus outside
observation. Now there are otherpeople observing you also, and
they might be your superiors.
They might be people you, youknow, work with side by side.
(18:53):
They might be people that seeyou as a competitor. They might
be people that are looking torecruit you to their lab.
There's a lot of reasons whythere's gonna be outside
observation. So if you don't dothe self examination, that
outside observation, it's almostlike you have no, there's you
(19:15):
have you have you have no foilto compare it to.
You don't you won't know if thatoutside observation has any
validity or not because youwouldn't you've got nothing to
compare it to. On the otherhand, some outside observation
could be wrong. Of course, someself examination could be wrong.
So, again, we're we gotta takethis all in as as useful data.
(19:36):
Even if it's wrong, it can beuseful data.
So the more self aware you are,the self self awareness will
arise out of your ability toknow yourself from the inside
out, and you will know thingsabout you that no one else
knows. Now in some cases, maybethey could come to know some of
(19:59):
it, but you still have, youknow, that, you know, the secret
heart of who you are. Right? Andif you know that, you you have
you have a great advantage. Nowawareness is a little different
than observation.
Observation is the skill to gainawareness. Right? You you can't
(20:23):
be aware of something untilyou've seen it. And some people
are very good at at isolatingtheir own self awareness. Some
people are very good at theskill of self observation.
You know, note your what you'regood at, note what you could be
better at, but use them bothsides of that to to help you.
(20:43):
And, you know, at any givenmoment, it's funny, you can be
engaged in an activity, and thenyou feel like something is not
quite right. Well, how do you dothat? Some people, they have
thoughts. It's their thoughts totell them something is off.
You know, it it might be verylogical. Some people have a
feeling that something isn'tright. It can be very illogical
(21:06):
in some cases. Some people havea sensation in their body. This
is giving me a headache.
It's bothering my stomach. Youknow, that's one of the signals
you get that tells you, look atwhat's going on here. And, yeah,
you wanna examine it for thesake of protecting your literal
self, maybe even protecting yourbody. You know? But, you wanna
(21:31):
see it you you wanna see it asin as big a picture as you can
because you never know whereit's gonna touch.
And it may be something thatdoesn't bother you physically at
all, but it doesn't feel rightor it doesn't bother you. It
doesn't make you feel one way oranother, but it's you're having,
(21:53):
you know, cognitive dissonancebecause it's not working for you
mentally. So, yeah, you youwanna develop your skill there
as far as you possibly can go,but then take into consideration
outside observation. What doothers see? What are they
observing?
How do they feel about it? Howdo they think about it? Do they
(22:15):
have experience that that couldbe a benefit to you? That
outside observation can reallyenrich your self examination.
And you it will help you seeyourself more clearly, more
accurately.
You know, you can align yourselfwith all available knowledge,
(22:36):
all available perception. Andand why not? What I mean, you're
there's nothing to lose there.We I guess what I'm I'm saying
here is don't fear outsideobservers.
Nick Oswald (22:50):
Yeah. I I yeah. I would say you you get a lot of
outside observation in science,obviously, because there's peer
review. There's layers ofbosses. There's grant review the
grants, you know, applicationreviewers and and, you know, all
sorts of people.
Those are all looking at fromlooking at at you from their own
(23:13):
perspective. They've got certaincriteria and certain biases and
certain, you know, maybeagendas, maybe. Hopefully not,
but they do exist. And Ofcourse. And so you're the only
one who can tell, who can steerfor yourself and take what you
(23:36):
know, taking an account thefeedback you're getting.
You know? So, but it's dangerousto I mean, there are a lot of
characters in science that whoare great at science but are not
great at management in myexperience anyway. It'd be
dangerous to take on literallytake on their viewpoint, you
(23:57):
know, that subset of people asan example. It'd be dangerous to
take on their viewpoint as aliteral feedback on how good you
are or what your what your, yourpromise was as a scientist or
what your direction should be.Only you know that.
And, you know, they they havethat bias or they have a dis not
dysfunction. That's too strong aword. They, you know, they maybe
(24:20):
put it a certain way. Let's putit
Kenneth Vogt (24:21):
that
Nick Oswald (24:22):
way. Take the feedback from those, but then
decide for yourself and take allof that feedback with a bit of a
pinch of salt. Mindset.
Kenneth Vogt (24:30):
Right. Right. And, you know, you can take feedback
because you like that feedbackand not take feedback because
you don't like it. You know?Maybe you've got maybe you've
got, undergrads that are workingin the lab with you, and they
think you're some kind of god.
Either you're you're amazing.Well, yeah, you like to hear how
smart you are and how howexperienced you are and all
(24:51):
that. That's great. The peoplethat you, you know, that are
your peers, you work with sideby side. Yeah.
They think you're pretty good.Do you think you're competent?
You can get the job done. Andmaybe you work for a jerk, and
he thinks you're a moron. Youknow?
Well, all of those are datapoints, and you have to you have
to not just take the data pointin, but you have to assess its
relative value. Some people'sopinions on certain things are
(25:15):
highly valuable and othersaren't. You know, you might
wanna get good investmentadvice, but, you know, your
uncle Larry may not be the guyto get it from. On the other
hand, somebody else that justwants to sell you something,
they might not be a good guy toget it from. But other people
have experience, and they seethey see things accurately, and
(25:38):
they have a track record.
And then then that advice youmay wanna take. You know, it
applies just as well to anythinggoing on in your lab.
Nick Oswald (25:49):
It goes back to the be brutally honest and be kind
thing, though, as well.
Kenneth Vogt (25:52):
Yes. You
Nick Oswald (25:53):
know? It's, be brutally open to, you know, to
take the stuff on even if youdon't like it. Take criticism if
you don't like it, but thenevaluate it brutally, honestly.
Is it honestly, does this chimewith my experience of myself or
is this person off, you know,got a different agenda or a
(26:14):
different viewpoint?
Kenneth Vogt (26:15):
Mhmm.
Nick Oswald (26:16):
And then regardless of what the, you know, what you
come up with, be kind toyourself. Because, again, you're
doing your best, and that's allyou can do. You know? You can
all you can do is do your bestand steer.
Kenneth Vogt (26:27):
So Right. Yeah. And it's like, sometimes, we we
get input and we don't like it.Well, maybe just we didn't like
how it was delivered. But ifit's accurate, we wanna receive
that.
We wanna get the benefit from itand and vice versa. Just because
something was presented sweetlydoesn't mean it's true. So Yeah.
You know, we we wanna we wannasee as clearly as we possibly
(26:50):
can. So if we if we think aboutabout progress, it's about self
expansion.
Right? You you want to have youwant to have more going for you
at any given moment. I thinksometimes we see life as a a
(27:12):
series of expansions andcontractions, and we get focused
on the contraction. Sometimesthe contraction is just
solidification. It's not it'sactually still expansive.
And sometimes, it stops us fromexpanding into something that
isn't useful for us. So and youhave to decide how do you wanna
(27:33):
approach this. You know, in yoursign your your particular
scientific job, you may look atit. I think what I wanna do is I
wanna go deep on somethingspecific. I wanna really be an
expert here.
In fact, I wanna break newground here, And that can put
you on the map. And if thatsuits your personality and suits
(27:55):
your opportunities and gives youthe the right possibilities, why
not? Now other people are morecomfortable going broad. That is
they wanna be a polymath. Theywanna know about a lot of stuff,
you know, versus just being ajack of all trades where they're
well, like, I I can comfortablydo this stuff, but a polymath is
(28:15):
somebody who wants to be reallygood at everything they do.
Now that is not the path foreverybody, but it is the path
for some of you. And it's notabout it's not about your
ambition so much as yourability, your capability. Some
people can do this, and I'm sureyou know people like that. You
maybe work with people like thator work for people like that.
(28:36):
And it's it's fabulous to watch.
And if if you can move me onjust it being an aspiration for
you and, like, no. I think I canbe that. I can do that. Well, do
that if you choose that. Peoplethat have that kind of skill are
also capable of going deep, soit's not like you have to give
up on that.
(28:56):
But it's it's a good way to lookat things. Look at it
vertically. Look at ithorizontally. Figure out what
what happens. A third approachyou can take is just go random.
And for people that are highlycreative, this may really speak
to you. And you can you can seenew things that you've never
(29:17):
seen before by doing that. Lookfor connections. Look for for
new possibilities and have thatbe that that be your guiding
light. And, again, there aresome of you that that will
really speak to you, and otherpeople will hear that and go,
that sounds like chaos.
I'd I hate chaos. I hate allthis all this unknown stuff all
(29:39):
the time. I have to have somesolid footing under me. Well, if
that doesn't work for you, thendon't do that. But whatever ever
path you choose, whatever onesyou've tried out tried out,
don't give in to disappointment.
If you decided to go broad andthen you realize that I'm biting
off more than I can chew here,don't beat yourself up about it.
(30:01):
You know, you you still have youcan still approach things in
another way and still safeguardyour future, still make yourself
a valuable team member that thatfolks wanna have around. You can
you know, disappointment has tobe viewed has to be viewed
(30:22):
rationally. I mean, if somethingdoesn't go the way you wish,
it's it's appropriate to bedisappointed. But are you gonna
consume yourself with that?
And people's I mean, frankly,they can send themselves into a
downward spiral of of mentalillness. Yeah. And I'm not not
in any way saying that thatisn't a harsh thing and isn't
(30:45):
hard to overcome. But for somefolks, they they could have
stopped it sooner. Or at anygiven moment, they could say,
I'm still I still have the powerto stop giving into this.
I'm not gonna do this anymore.So, you know, assess yourself
properly that way. It's not tosay you can't seek help if you
need it. But in some cases, werealize, I don't need a drug.
(31:11):
What I need is to stop being anidiot.
You know? And again, this isself assessment. I'm not talking
about judging other people. Andfrankly, I don't even want you
to judge yourself. But you doknow in any moment, like, you
know, this is something I'mindulging in, and and I have the
power to not indulge in it.
(31:31):
So, you know, get cut yourself alittle slack and be okay with it
that the path I've I've chosenup till now isn't perfect. I'm
gonna need to make someadjustments. So you can make
major adjustments. Then goahead. You still can.
Yeah. You still have thatpossibility. You can have all
Nick Oswald (31:53):
All you can
Kenneth Vogt (31:54):
take a breath.
Nick Oswald (31:54):
Yeah. All you can do that's the same. All you can
do is be kind to yourself andsteer. Be honest and steer. And
and, yeah, I think I I think ina in a I think in a profe any
profession, actually, it'sreally easy to kinda pigeonhole
yourself and think that that mypeers are do are all heading in
(32:21):
this direction, and so I am aswell.
And it's much more granular thanthat. There are so many
different things you can do,different directions you can go
in from where you are now that,that again, if you if you can
just do if you can set your ifyou can be honest with yourself
about what you want and whereyou are, then then you'll just
(32:45):
you it allows you to make theright choices. But, you know,
this is this is one lens to lookat it. You've just given your
Kenneth Vogt (32:52):
Right. And, you know, you don't wanna be in a
position where you're lookingback. Holy cow. It's been ten
years. It's been twenty years.
It's been thirty years. Why didI stay on this path? You know,
whatever it is. I mean, it'sit's been three months. Why am I
still on this path?
You don't wanna you don't wantto be suffering regret that you
(33:15):
had a choice to avoid. Nowregret is gonna happen in life.
Don't, you know, don't try toavoid regret. But when you when
you notice it, notice it becauseyou, you know, you you will have
the opportunity to pivot. So letme give you a framework in
within which pivot happens.
Sometimes you can plan yourgrowth, But other times, it's,
(33:39):
you know, it's an opportunitythat you didn't plan on, didn't
even expect, but there it is. Soyou may have to exploit the
chances that come to you whenthey come to you. They're
they're not always perfectlytimed. Maybe you wish you had
more time to prepare. Maybe youwish they'd come sooner.
(34:01):
But it's you know, you we wannahave our eyes open for that
thing. Thing. It doesn't meanthat you should jettison your
plan just because the newopportunity shows up because new
opportunities often show up. Butwe don't wanna have a, you know,
the the grass is greener on theother side kind of outlook about
things. Yeah.
Of course. There are some knownproblems with the path you're
(34:24):
currently on, and maybe a newthing wouldn't have that. But
then again, everything haseverything has its downside, and
sometimes you won't know untilyou're in it. So it's, you you
don't wanna turn awayopportunity. On the other hand,
(34:44):
having a defined plan and you'reworking the plan, you've been
succeeding at it, is veryvaluable.
Don't discount that. Don't don'tdon't beat yourself up about the
fact that, oh, I haven't been a,you know, hyper risk taker, and
maybe I haven't been asimaginative as some other
people. Well, yeah, there'sthere's downsides to that though
(35:06):
too. So it's you have to assessthe risk versus reward.
Nick Oswald (35:11):
Yeah. That can go either either way. I mean, for
my career, my path has beenquite risky. And sometimes I'll
go I I then I go to maybe Ishould have just taken it more
simply and gave myself lessstress.
Kenneth Vogt (35:24):
Mhmm.
Nick Oswald (35:24):
But it's it's you'll always the grass is
always greener on the otherside. Right.
Kenneth Vogt (35:31):
Well, and our our motivation for sticking with a
plan, could come from a reallygood place. You know? It it may
be kind of a moral principleyou're following. Like, I'm not
gonna jettison something that'sworking because I wanna take
care of my family, and I I don'twanna it might be fun for me,
(35:53):
but what what am I gonna do tomy spouse, my children, by going
down that road? And even ifnothing goes wrong, what stress
do I introduce by byinterjecting unknowns?
I was I was thinking about thisspecifically from the standpoint
of biology. So how does how doeslife work? I mean, the how do
(36:17):
living things operate? They needto be able to spread quickly in
previously unexploited habitats.And when that happens, you don't
know what the outcome will be.
Now granted, some things don'tdo that. There there's some
biological entities that need avery specific, environment or
(36:41):
that's it. They're done. But thestuff that can spread quickly
does. And, of course, that's howwe get infections.
You know? That's how we havecancer. You know? There's a I
mean, there's a lot of downsideto that stuff. On the other
hand, if there's a newopportunity to to to exploit a
new environment, and I when Isay exploit, I mean that in the
(37:03):
clinical sense, not in the moralsense, you know, to make to make
use of what's available, wedon't wanna miss out on that.
But by the same token, we needto acknowledge that if it's a
new environment, there there aregonna be new problems, there are
gonna be new risks, and and wewanna we wanna be eyes open
about that. Some people will bevery uncomfortable with an an
(37:28):
opportunistic environment. Otherpeople will be are very
uncomfortable with a plannedenvironment that are that's
that's very restricted, and it'sgot all these boundaries around
it. You know? But you got yougotta know yourself and know
your your tolerance level.
And and, too, even if you thinkyou can tolerate a lot of risk,
(37:48):
there's there's a level of riskthat's just just not conducive
of life. So we don't we don'twanna we don't wanna push beyond
the boundaries. You know, therethere's a reason why I haven't
gone to Mars. You know? And andthis book's too hard.
Now there's some folks that'd belike, man, I would love to be
there. I would love to do that.Great. You know? If you're the
(38:10):
if you can tolerate that and youcan make it work, great.
On the other hand, if, you know,you're just gonna be in a box,
it that if I mean, if you cansurvive in a box, it can happen,
you know? But some people, Imean, they they will not
flourish there, and you need toknow yourself.
Nick Oswald (38:34):
Yeah. I don't have anything to add to that. That
was well clear. I would like togo to Mars. Well, no.
I don't know.
Kenneth Vogt (38:40):
I I
Nick Oswald (38:40):
I like the idea, but but, yes, the quiet
commitment needs.
Kenneth Vogt (38:43):
Yeah. For sure. Well, I don't have anything to
add to it either. That was, thatwas the the end of my
presentation. So thank you,everybody, for listening.
Nick Oswald (38:54):
I think this is a really important topic for all
professions, but especiallywell, not especially. From
personal experience, I know thatit's important in science
because it's there are so manyillusions of of, real tracks,
you know, I mean, career tracks.And, well, they're not illusions
(39:16):
that do exist, but it's so easyto get hypnotized into just
following that and notevaluating yourself. There's
also a lot of, there's also alot of inputs in terms of
feedback and criticism andreview and Mhmm. Strange
management setups and all sortsof stuff that that can that can
(39:37):
demoralize you if you are andand and I think that the
demoralization compounds if youare not being introspective
because you get pulled along bythose tracks and you get pulled
along by the the criticism.
Yep. And, and so that's the thisis a real core skill for, for
sinuses. Keep evaluatingyourself. What are you good at?
(40:01):
How is it going?
What are you bad at? Is it afit? If it isn't a fit, what's a
better direction? But, I mean,I'm sure we've done episodes on
perseverance as well. That'salso a thing.
And it's not about just going,oh, this is getting difficult.
Let's stop. But it's honestlysteering your way in a direction
that that that fits for you. SoI think this is a great topic,
(40:24):
Ken. Thanks for that.
Kenneth Vogt (40:25):
Yeah. Alright. Great. Thank you.
Nick Oswald (40:27):
Okay. And thanks everyone for joining us. We will
be back in, in a month foranother episode. And you can
look on your look onBiteSizeBio.com in the podcast
section to find, The HappyScientist on whatever podcast
cast platform you use. Andthere, you can access all of the
(40:49):
the, there I don't know how manyepisodes we have now.
It's a lot of episodes on allsorts of really great and deep
topics, that that can help you.And if you find this useful, if
you find this useful today,please share it with a colleague
and, and let them get thebenefit as well. Share the
(41:09):
webinar or share the link to thepodcast page on BiteSize Bio,
that would be greatlyappreciated. So thanks to all of
you for joining us, and goodluck in your research. We'll see
you next time.
Kenneth Vogt (41:20):
Alright. Thank you all.
VX (41:27):
The happy scientist is brought brought to you by
BiteSize Bio, your mentor in thelab. BiteSize Bio features
thousands of articles andwebinars contributed by hundreds
of PhD scientists and scientificcompanies who freely offer their
hard won wisdom and solutions tothe bite sized bio community.
This is the Happy Scientist podcast. Each episode is
designed to make you morefocused, more productive, and
more satisfied in the lab. Youcan find us online at
bitesizebio.com/happyscientist.Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt,
founder of the executivecoaching firm, Vera Claritas,
and doctor Nick Oswald, PhD,bioscientist, and founder of
(00:53):
Bite Size Bio.
Nick Oswald (01:00):
Hello. This is Nick Oswald welcoming you to this
episode of the Happy Scientistpodcast. If you want to become a
happier, healthier, and moreproductive scientist, you are in
the right place. With me asalways is the Bite sized Bio
team's mister Miyagi or maybeDumbledore, mister Kenneth Vogt.
In these sessions, we'll hearfrom Ken mostly on the
(01:21):
principles that will help shapeyou for a happier and more
successful life and career.
And along the way, I'll pitch inwith points from my personal
experience as a scientist andfrom working with Ken. If you
have any questions along theway, put them into the questions
box on the side of your screen,and I'll put them to Ken. So
today, we are talking about it'sa bit of a mouthful, this one
actually. Objectiveintrospection to strengthen your
(01:44):
scientific career. Okay, Ken.
What is that all about?
Kenneth Vogt (01:48):
There you go. Well, honestly, I'm gonna blame
that title on my editor. He hesmartened it up. But, like, you
can think of it a far far moresimply as look at yourself to
see how you're impacting yourown career. You could think
about this.
You can strengthen your careerby advancing it. You could also
(02:10):
strengthen your career byprotecting it. And the way we're
gonna look at that today isthrough self examination, seeing
where you really are. How areyou really being? What are you
getting done?
What aren't you getting done?How are you being viewed by
others? So there's, there'squite a bit to talk about here,
so let's jump right in. So, youknow, the first question you
(02:32):
might ask yourself is like, oh,wait a minute. This sounds like
a lot of work.
Why should I bother to examinemyself? I'm already knee deep in
what I'm supposed to be doingand whether other people get it.
It's not my problem. But, youknow, at any given moment, you
really only have right now. Whatwhat happened in the past is
(02:52):
already done.
You're not changing that. Thefuture isn't here yet. In this
moment of now is when you havethe opportunity. It's so it's
where you are, when you are. Andand you can also add the the
knowledge of the past and thefuture into that.
That is, you know, where haveyou been? What what has been
(03:16):
going on? What got you to here?That's worth being aware of. And
to examine it from just your ownpersonal perspective, how has my
past happened?
How did it help me? How did itget me here? How did it create
obstacles? What opportunitiesdid it help? Which ones did it
(03:36):
hurt?
You're you're that can only comefrom some kind of examination.
Now you and then there's thefuture. It's like, well, where
do I wanna end up? And this isgonna get me there. That you
know, these are all all selfinquiries.
But remember, even if you lookat that, go, look, I don't want
I don't wanna be playing thatgame of self inquiry. I just
(03:58):
don't feel like it. Well, fine.Except others will be examining
you. And, I mean, I we all knowthat for sure.
I mean, even when it comes downto just something simple like
being assessed by your directsuperior. You know, it's not
done with any kind of, you know,they're not trying to hurt you.
(04:18):
They're not, you know, they'renot out to get you. They're not
trying to they're not trying tocompete with you. They're just
it's just their job to assessthe employees that work for
them.
You're one of them. That's howit is. That's gonna be
happening. And, of course, thereare people with with not so
great motives that are competingwith you, and they're gonna be
examining you too, and it'sgonna happen. So you have to
(04:40):
have a plan of of what you'regonna do.
And I'm not saying that it hasto be all encompassing because,
obviously, there's a lot of,technical knowledge that is
necessary to do your job. Andyou gotta put your focus there.
You can't only be focusing onthe politics in the lab. Right?
But, but you do need to seewhat's actually there.
(05:03):
So I will pause for a second andsee if Nick has anything to add
here.
Nick Oswald (05:09):
I used to give a talk about the about alternative
careers for scientists. Andthere's probably it's probably
somewhere on my side. If not,I'll do it again. But one of the
things that exactly addressesexactly this, one of the points
in that talk. And and the theargument that I made, maybe it's
less now because I startedmaking this talk about ten years
(05:32):
ago.
It's maybe less now. But there'sthis particular blueprint in
science for how your career willwill go. There's a classic path.
And when you start off on yourcareer, you tend to think you're
gonna follow that path. And, andand the idea was to stop and do
(05:54):
what you're doing is toreexamine.
Is this still what you want? Isthis still what you want? Is it
still working? Do it on aregular basis so that you don't
do what many many people do,which is just they they kind of,
at some point, realize this isnot working, and I've gone quite
far down here. And it's not whatI wanted.
So from that one standpoint,that that that is that that's
(06:15):
what pops out at me. But, somany different reasons to
different ways to look at it aswell, which I guess you're
gonna, you're gonna dive into.
Kenneth Vogt (06:26):
Yep. Yeah. And I mean, there are several people
at Bite Size Bio and some thathave worked for Bite Size Bio in
the past. This is exactly whathappened to them. They're very
capable scientists, but theyfound the classical path wasn't
totally ringing their chime.
You know, and these are notpeople who were failures in the
lab. They're it's just theyrealized this isn't really what
(06:49):
I wanna be. So, you know, yougotta be open to that. But if
you don't do that selfexamination, you will never
know. You'll just know that I'mnot having a good time here.
I don't know why and but I getyou don't have to just suck it
up. There are options.
Nick Oswald (07:06):
Yeah. I mean, I mean, the the one thing about
the classical path now, which iswhy I said maybe it's slightly
different, is that people know alot more now that that it's more
than likely you will not be ableto follow that path in just a
pure numbers game. So, you youknow, there are less positions
(07:26):
at the top than, the number ofpeople entering the system. But
as a but it's besides the point,you're the one data point in,
you know, in the the wholesphere so you can do any you can
do anything you want. You thethe way to navigate it is not to
be just pulled along by thetide.
The way the way to navigate itis to figure out what you want
(07:49):
to do. And one of the keyelements of that is is checking
in with yourself in some of theways you're gonna suggest to
make sure that you're going inthe direction that you want to,
not that a direction not just adirection that seemed reasonable
to you or to someone else theyears ago.
Kenneth Vogt (08:06):
Right. Right. Well, this segues into my next
topic pretty well. If you'regonna do some kind of self
examination, I mean, it's goodto know the environment, like
what you were talking about herea minute ago, Nick, that, you
know, maybe you've playedbasketball on the school team
since you were in middle school.You know?
(08:28):
But as you go up and up and upand it's high school and then
it's college and thenprofessionally, there aren't
that many openings forprofessional basketball players.
You know, if you want I mean, ifyou're somebody who's really
that good, you can get to thatspot. And but some of it is is
more than just skill. It's aboutopportunity, you know, it's
(08:49):
about luck. It's aboutconnections.
And there are a lot of otherthings that could be done with
the same set of skills. So Iwill start off by saying that
when doing these kind of selfexaminations, be kind to
yourself. It isn't about makinga a just a brutal, bright like
examination of my every failingand my every deficiency, and
(09:13):
it's not like that. You you getto choose your battles, and you
don't have to win every time.There there there there probably
have been times when you've goneafter something and didn't get
it and somebody else did.
It's not the end of the world.Watch for more opportunities.
Keep your eyes open and keep,you know, keep looking at, well,
(09:34):
what is there something I shouldhave built there? Is it that I
needed to do better? Was I notdid I not test as well?
Did I not demonstrate my skillas well? Or did I just plain not
have the skill to demonstrate?And I need to bolster that. I
mean, it's good to know thesethings and recognize them. And
it's also good to know that Ijust I just wasn't in the
(09:54):
political position to do this,so and and I couldn't have been.
So there's no reason to beatourselves up about that stuff.
Because, you know, selfrecrimination, it it serves no
useful purpose. Sometimes peoplethink, well, I'm being humble.
That's not humility. That's selfhatred.
It's not the same thing. We wejust wanna see what is actually
(10:16):
there. So you the bottom linehere is you don't need to fear
self examination. It's not gonnahurt you. It will only clarify
some things.
And, yeah, you may see somethings you didn't wish were
there, but wishing them awayisn't working, is it? So better
to know. And because then thepossibilities open up for, well,
(10:37):
what could I do about this? Youknow? And maybe the answer to
this not is there's nothing Ican do about it.
But often, it's like you can'tsee the possibilities of how to
improve your situation until youacknowledge your situation. So,
again, I will pause for a minutethere. Is there anything you
wanna say about that, Nick?
Nick Oswald (11:00):
I guess the the what what happens a lot in
science that I've seen is theoverachiever syndrome.
Kenneth Vogt (11:07):
Mhmm.
Nick Oswald (11:08):
And this is the, you know, that so people will
kind of fall into that trap. I Iwould say just on the the side
of being kind to yourselfbecause,
Kenneth Vogt (11:20):
you know, you you you to
Nick Oswald (11:22):
get where you are at the moment, you had to you
had to put in it, an an amountof work and focus that shows
that it's you're doing yourbest, and that's all you can do
at any moment. You can do yourbest, and then you can make the
choices that are in front ofyou. But I but I I think the
tendency, like, especiallyamongst the ones that are
(11:44):
overachievers, is to to be hardon yourself, which is
counterproductive. You know? Youyou might not fit the mold.
I didn't fit the mold as ascientist. I don't it turned out
once I got into the lab that myskill set was not in line with
what it took to be a scientist.It's just a different makeup,
you know. And that wasn't myfault. Like, that's just the way
(12:07):
that that's not something to behard on myself about.
It's just the way that it was.And so now then I chose
something else because I becameaware of that. So kindness is to
yourself is always the bestoption, I think.
Kenneth Vogt (12:21):
So I wanna do a little to defend Nick here. Bite
Size Bio started because he hadscientific experience to share.
He he had learned sometechniques that were really
useful for other people. So theoriginal content on Bite Size
Bio was all Nick. So it's notlike, okay, he failed in
science, not even close.
(12:42):
But at the end of the day,recognition of it's more than
just this knowledge. There'sthere's an outlook. There's this
there's there's skills, butthere's also a propensity toward
certain behaviors and certainenvironments. And and he saw
himself, and he knew and he knewthat he wanted to make a shift
(13:02):
to to make that work the best.So now I I I like what you're
talking about, Nick, about thethe achievers that are among
scientists.
So let's shift to that. Howabout you folks? When is it time
to be brutally honest? You know,you wanna see yourself. You you
(13:23):
wanna avoid the blind spots.
And it's the stuff you don'tknow you don't know is what gets
you in the end. That's that'sthe bugaboo. And we can you
know, you can put on your rosecolored glasses and only see
your strong points and only seethe, you know, the hard work
you've already done and andwhat, you know, the level you've
(13:46):
already risen to, but it's it'sa trap. Self deception can get
you. I don't care how smart youare, how experienced you are,
how imaginative you are.
You wanna see what is actuallythere. And so in in those
moments of self examination,it's not so much to make an
(14:07):
examination of, let me look atall the all the stuff that shows
how great I am. I I wanna Iwanna be able to pat myself on
the back. I wanna be able tohide behind the things I'm good
at, and I want to hide behindthe recognition I've gotten from
others for that. But hidingisn't really gonna get you what
(14:27):
you want.
It it won't protect you evenwhere you are. So seeing what
actually is and realizing thisis a flaw, this is a weakness,
this is a gap. Again, once youacknowledge those things, well,
now you can start to seesolutions to that. Now you can
get creative about, well, whatdo I wanna do about that? How do
(14:50):
I wanna approach it?
And for some people, it'sliterally more education. Some
people, it's I wanna go back andget a postdoc as opposed to to,
you know, work for a commerciallab at this time. You know?
There's it will it will make yourecognize that maybe there is a
easier road for me here or orjust a smoother road for my
(15:14):
circumstances at this time. And,you know, keep in mind too, when
you make choices these days,it's not gonna be the thing
you're gonna do for the rest ofyour career and retire with the
gold watch.
That those days are long gone.They were they were gone from my
grandfather, you know, and I'mnot young. So for for most of
you who are probably hearingthis this, you can't think like
(15:38):
that. It's just not how the howthe world will be operating.
Nick Oswald (15:44):
On the other hand, you can be you can be brutally
honest and be kind to yourself.Yeah. Those are not mutually
exclusive.
Kenneth Vogt (15:54):
Yeah. Exact yeah. That's that's a really good
point. This is this isn't amatter of some people should be
kind and some people should beself brutal. Sure.
We all need both when we haveour moments.
Nick Oswald (16:06):
I realized that I was nowhere near green fingered
enough to be a scientist. Right?Or for it to be comfortable for
me to be a scientist. But thatthat was that was being brutally
honest with myself, but I didn'tbeat myself up about it. I I
just thought, okay.
So what are my strengths, andwhat way do I want to go?
Kenneth Vogt (16:24):
So is being green fingered what a biologist would
call, what a gardener would callit having a green thumb?
Nick Oswald (16:30):
Exactly the same thing. Well, we we have the same
green fingered in in The UK, butit's it's the same that it's
it's the gardening analogy. Ittakes a little bit of skill,
that is intangible skill to tobe a sinus. And, and I certainly
didn't have that. So, yeah, thatthat was that was the brutal
(16:50):
brutal truth for me.
So, yeah. But that that I didn'tbeat myself up about it. That's
the way it was. And then on onthe go. It was useful
information for choosing what todo next.
Kenneth Vogt (17:02):
Right. Right.
Nick Oswald (17:03):
It did take me ten years to figure it out, by
Kenneth Vogt (17:04):
the way. I didn't mean to get
Nick Oswald (17:06):
Well,
Kenneth Vogt (17:06):
you know, that that's an interesting thing to
say. It wasn't ten years offailure either.
Nick Oswald (17:12):
No, no. It was ten years
Kenneth Vogt (17:14):
of doing the job. Yeah.
Nick Oswald (17:15):
It was ten years of trying to overcome that hurdle
and then realizing, oh, wait aminute.
Kenneth Vogt (17:22):
Well, you know, this is an interesting thing
about the scientific endeavor.Yeah. Of course, there's a lot
of math and statistics and datato analyze. That that's all
true, and that's all very logicbased and can can be very black
and white. But the fact isyou're dealing with living
things, and there is there isthat that dark area.
(17:46):
Now I say dark, not like darklyevil, but dark like unseen that
has to do with life and how itprogresses. And and I don't I
don't mean human life. I meanbasic life. There there's only
so much we actually understandabout that. And and we're seeing
a a facsimile of reality, Andyou're operating on that fix
(18:07):
facsimile.
And, of course, you wanna getgood at it. They're at least as
good as one can be or as good asis typical. But but we're you're
still dealing with a lot ofmystery. You know, power to you
for that. And it requires a lotof creativity and power to you
for that.
You ought to do it. And you haveto you have to engage yourself
(18:28):
on that to get it done. So tomove on to the next thought on
that. So there's selfexamination versus outside
observation. Now there are otherpeople observing you also, and
they might be your superiors.
They might be people you, youknow, work with side by side.
(18:53):
They might be people that seeyou as a competitor. They might
be people that are looking torecruit you to their lab.
There's a lot of reasons whythere's gonna be outside
observation. So if you don't dothe self examination, that
outside observation, it's almostlike you have no, there's you
(19:15):
have you have you have no foilto compare it to.
You don't you won't know if thatoutside observation has any
validity or not because youwouldn't you've got nothing to
compare it to. On the otherhand, some outside observation
could be wrong. Of course, someself examination could be wrong.
So, again, we're we gotta takethis all in as as useful data.
(19:36):
Even if it's wrong, it can beuseful data.
So the more self aware you are,the self self awareness will
arise out of your ability toknow yourself from the inside
out, and you will know thingsabout you that no one else
knows. Now in some cases, maybethey could come to know some of
(19:59):
it, but you still have, youknow, that, you know, the secret
heart of who you are. Right? Andif you know that, you you have
you have a great advantage. Nowawareness is a little different
than observation.
Observation is the skill to gainawareness. Right? You you can't
(20:23):
be aware of something untilyou've seen it. And some people
are very good at at isolatingtheir own self awareness. Some
people are very good at theskill of self observation.
You know, note your what you'regood at, note what you could be
better at, but use them bothsides of that to to help you.
(20:43):
And, you know, at any givenmoment, it's funny, you can be
engaged in an activity, and thenyou feel like something is not
quite right. Well, how do you dothat? Some people, they have
thoughts. It's their thoughts totell them something is off.
You know, it it might be verylogical. Some people have a
feeling that something isn'tright. It can be very illogical
(21:06):
in some cases. Some people havea sensation in their body. This
is giving me a headache.
It's bothering my stomach. Youknow, that's one of the signals
you get that tells you, look atwhat's going on here. And, yeah,
you wanna examine it for thesake of protecting your literal
self, maybe even protecting yourbody. You know? But, you wanna
(21:31):
see it you you wanna see it asin as big a picture as you can
because you never know whereit's gonna touch.
And it may be something thatdoesn't bother you physically at
all, but it doesn't feel rightor it doesn't bother you. It
doesn't make you feel one way oranother, but it's you're having,
(21:53):
you know, cognitive dissonancebecause it's not working for you
mentally. So, yeah, you youwanna develop your skill there
as far as you possibly can go,but then take into consideration
outside observation. What doothers see? What are they
observing?
How do they feel about it? Howdo they think about it? Do they
(22:15):
have experience that that couldbe a benefit to you? That
outside observation can reallyenrich your self examination.
And you it will help you seeyourself more clearly, more
accurately.
You know, you can align yourselfwith all available knowledge,
(22:36):
all available perception. Andand why not? What I mean, you're
there's nothing to lose there.We I guess what I'm I'm saying
here is don't fear outsideobservers.
Nick Oswald (22:50):
Yeah. I I yeah. I would say you you get a lot of
outside observation in science,obviously, because there's peer
review. There's layers ofbosses. There's grant review the
grants, you know, applicationreviewers and and, you know, all
sorts of people.
Those are all looking at fromlooking at at you from their own
(23:13):
perspective. They've got certaincriteria and certain biases and
certain, you know, maybeagendas, maybe. Hopefully not,
but they do exist. And Ofcourse. And so you're the only
one who can tell, who can steerfor yourself and take what you
(23:36):
know, taking an account thefeedback you're getting.
You know? So, but it's dangerousto I mean, there are a lot of
characters in science that whoare great at science but are not
great at management in myexperience anyway. It'd be
dangerous to take on literallytake on their viewpoint, you
(23:57):
know, that subset of people asan example. It'd be dangerous to
take on their viewpoint as aliteral feedback on how good you
are or what your what your, yourpromise was as a scientist or
what your direction should be.Only you know that.
And, you know, they they havethat bias or they have a dis not
dysfunction. That's too strong aword. They, you know, they maybe
(24:20):
put it a certain way. Let's putit
Kenneth Vogt (24:21):
that
Nick Oswald (24:22):
way. Take the feedback from those, but then
decide for yourself and take allof that feedback with a bit of a
pinch of salt. Mindset.
Kenneth Vogt (24:30):
Right. Right. And, you know, you can take feedback
because you like that feedbackand not take feedback because
you don't like it. You know?Maybe you've got maybe you've
got, undergrads that are workingin the lab with you, and they
think you're some kind of god.
Either you're you're amazing.Well, yeah, you like to hear how
smart you are and how howexperienced you are and all
(24:51):
that. That's great. The peoplethat you, you know, that are
your peers, you work with sideby side. Yeah.
They think you're pretty good.Do you think you're competent?
You can get the job done. Andmaybe you work for a jerk, and
he thinks you're a moron. Youknow?
Well, all of those are datapoints, and you have to you have
to not just take the data pointin, but you have to assess its
relative value. Some people'sopinions on certain things are
(25:15):
highly valuable and othersaren't. You know, you might
wanna get good investmentadvice, but, you know, your
uncle Larry may not be the guyto get it from. On the other
hand, somebody else that justwants to sell you something,
they might not be a good guy toget it from. But other people
have experience, and they seethey see things accurately, and
(25:38):
they have a track record.
And then then that advice youmay wanna take. You know, it
applies just as well to anythinggoing on in your lab.
Nick Oswald (25:49):
It goes back to the be brutally honest and be kind
thing, though, as well.
Kenneth Vogt (25:52):
Yes. You
Nick Oswald (25:53):
know? It's, be brutally open to, you know, to
take the stuff on even if youdon't like it. Take criticism if
you don't like it, but thenevaluate it brutally, honestly.
Is it honestly, does this chimewith my experience of myself or
is this person off, you know,got a different agenda or a
(26:14):
different viewpoint?
Kenneth Vogt (26:15):
Mhmm.
Nick Oswald (26:16):
And then regardless of what the, you know, what you
come up with, be kind toyourself. Because, again, you're
doing your best, and that's allyou can do. You know? You can
all you can do is do your bestand steer.
Kenneth Vogt (26:27):
So Right. Yeah. And it's like, sometimes, we we
get input and we don't like it.Well, maybe just we didn't like
how it was delivered. But ifit's accurate, we wanna receive
that.
We wanna get the benefit from itand and vice versa. Just because
something was presented sweetlydoesn't mean it's true. So Yeah.
You know, we we wanna we wannasee as clearly as we possibly
(26:50):
can. So if we if we think aboutabout progress, it's about self
expansion.
Right? You you want to have youwant to have more going for you
at any given moment. I thinksometimes we see life as a a
(27:12):
series of expansions andcontractions, and we get focused
on the contraction. Sometimesthe contraction is just
solidification. It's not it'sactually still expansive.
And sometimes, it stops us fromexpanding into something that
isn't useful for us. So and youhave to decide how do you wanna
(27:33):
approach this. You know, in yoursign your your particular
scientific job, you may look atit. I think what I wanna do is I
wanna go deep on somethingspecific. I wanna really be an
expert here.
In fact, I wanna break newground here, And that can put
you on the map. And if thatsuits your personality and suits
(27:55):
your opportunities and gives youthe the right possibilities, why
not? Now other people are morecomfortable going broad. That is
they wanna be a polymath. Theywanna know about a lot of stuff,
you know, versus just being ajack of all trades where they're
well, like, I I can comfortablydo this stuff, but a polymath is
(28:15):
somebody who wants to be reallygood at everything they do.
Now that is not the path foreverybody, but it is the path
for some of you. And it's notabout it's not about your
ambition so much as yourability, your capability. Some
people can do this, and I'm sureyou know people like that. You
maybe work with people like thator work for people like that.
(28:36):
And it's it's fabulous to watch.
And if if you can move me onjust it being an aspiration for
you and, like, no. I think I canbe that. I can do that. Well, do
that if you choose that. Peoplethat have that kind of skill are
also capable of going deep, soit's not like you have to give
up on that.
(28:56):
But it's it's a good way to lookat things. Look at it
vertically. Look at ithorizontally. Figure out what
what happens. A third approachyou can take is just go random.
And for people that are highlycreative, this may really speak
to you. And you can you can seenew things that you've never
(29:17):
seen before by doing that. Lookfor connections. Look for for
new possibilities and have thatbe that that be your guiding
light. And, again, there aresome of you that that will
really speak to you, and otherpeople will hear that and go,
that sounds like chaos.
I'd I hate chaos. I hate allthis all this unknown stuff all
(29:39):
the time. I have to have somesolid footing under me. Well, if
that doesn't work for you, thendon't do that. But whatever ever
path you choose, whatever onesyou've tried out tried out,
don't give in to disappointment.
If you decided to go broad andthen you realize that I'm biting
off more than I can chew here,don't beat yourself up about it.
(30:01):
You know, you you still have youcan still approach things in
another way and still safeguardyour future, still make yourself
a valuable team member that thatfolks wanna have around. You can
you know, disappointment has tobe viewed has to be viewed
(30:22):
rationally. I mean, if somethingdoesn't go the way you wish,
it's it's appropriate to bedisappointed. But are you gonna
consume yourself with that?
And people's I mean, frankly,they can send themselves into a
downward spiral of of mentalillness. Yeah. And I'm not not
in any way saying that thatisn't a harsh thing and isn't
(30:45):
hard to overcome. But for somefolks, they they could have
stopped it sooner. Or at anygiven moment, they could say,
I'm still I still have the powerto stop giving into this.
I'm not gonna do this anymore.So, you know, assess yourself
properly that way. It's not tosay you can't seek help if you
need it. But in some cases, werealize, I don't need a drug.
(31:11):
What I need is to stop being anidiot.
You know? And again, this isself assessment. I'm not talking
about judging other people. Andfrankly, I don't even want you
to judge yourself. But you doknow in any moment, like, you
know, this is something I'mindulging in, and and I have the
power to not indulge in it.
(31:31):
So, you know, get cut yourself alittle slack and be okay with it
that the path I've I've chosenup till now isn't perfect. I'm
gonna need to make someadjustments. So you can make
major adjustments. Then goahead. You still can.
Yeah. You still have thatpossibility. You can have all
Nick Oswald (31:53):
All you can
Kenneth Vogt (31:54):
take a breath.
Nick Oswald (31:54):
Yeah. All you can do that's the same. All you can
do is be kind to yourself andsteer. Be honest and steer. And
and, yeah, I think I I think ina in a I think in a profe any
profession, actually, it'sreally easy to kinda pigeonhole
yourself and think that that mypeers are do are all heading in
(32:21):
this direction, and so I am aswell.
And it's much more granular thanthat. There are so many
different things you can do,different directions you can go
in from where you are now that,that again, if you if you can
just do if you can set your ifyou can be honest with yourself
about what you want and whereyou are, then then you'll just
(32:45):
you it allows you to make theright choices. But, you know,
this is this is one lens to lookat it. You've just given your
Kenneth Vogt (32:52):
Right. And, you know, you don't wanna be in a
position where you're lookingback. Holy cow. It's been ten
years. It's been twenty years.
It's been thirty years. Why didI stay on this path? You know,
whatever it is. I mean, it'sit's been three months. Why am I
still on this path?
You don't wanna you don't wantto be suffering regret that you
(33:15):
had a choice to avoid. Nowregret is gonna happen in life.
Don't, you know, don't try toavoid regret. But when you when
you notice it, notice it becauseyou, you know, you you will have
the opportunity to pivot. So letme give you a framework in
within which pivot happens.
Sometimes you can plan yourgrowth, But other times, it's,
(33:39):
you know, it's an opportunitythat you didn't plan on, didn't
even expect, but there it is. Soyou may have to exploit the
chances that come to you whenthey come to you. They're
they're not always perfectlytimed. Maybe you wish you had
more time to prepare. Maybe youwish they'd come sooner.
(34:01):
But it's you know, you we wannahave our eyes open for that
thing. Thing. It doesn't meanthat you should jettison your
plan just because the newopportunity shows up because new
opportunities often show up. Butwe don't wanna have a, you know,
the the grass is greener on theother side kind of outlook about
things. Yeah.
Of course. There are some knownproblems with the path you're
(34:24):
currently on, and maybe a newthing wouldn't have that. But
then again, everything haseverything has its downside, and
sometimes you won't know untilyou're in it. So it's, you you
don't wanna turn awayopportunity. On the other hand,
(34:44):
having a defined plan and you'reworking the plan, you've been
succeeding at it, is veryvaluable.
Don't discount that. Don't don'tdon't beat yourself up about the
fact that, oh, I haven't been a,you know, hyper risk taker, and
maybe I haven't been asimaginative as some other
people. Well, yeah, there'sthere's downsides to that though
(35:06):
too. So it's you have to assessthe risk versus reward.
Nick Oswald (35:11):
Yeah. That can go either either way. I mean, for
my career, my path has beenquite risky. And sometimes I'll
go I I then I go to maybe Ishould have just taken it more
simply and gave myself lessstress.
Kenneth Vogt (35:24):
Mhmm.
Nick Oswald (35:24):
But it's it's you'll always the grass is
always greener on the otherside. Right.
Kenneth Vogt (35:31):
Well, and our our motivation for sticking with a
plan, could come from a reallygood place. You know? It it may
be kind of a moral principleyou're following. Like, I'm not
gonna jettison something that'sworking because I wanna take
care of my family, and I I don'twanna it might be fun for me,
(35:53):
but what what am I gonna do tomy spouse, my children, by going
down that road? And even ifnothing goes wrong, what stress
do I introduce by byinterjecting unknowns?
I was I was thinking about thisspecifically from the standpoint
of biology. So how does how doeslife work? I mean, the how do
(36:17):
living things operate? They needto be able to spread quickly in
previously unexploited habitats.And when that happens, you don't
know what the outcome will be.
Now granted, some things don'tdo that. There there's some
biological entities that need avery specific, environment or
(36:41):
that's it. They're done. But thestuff that can spread quickly
does. And, of course, that's howwe get infections.
You know? That's how we havecancer. You know? There's a I
mean, there's a lot of downsideto that stuff. On the other
hand, if there's a newopportunity to to to exploit a
new environment, and I when Isay exploit, I mean that in the
(37:03):
clinical sense, not in the moralsense, you know, to make to make
use of what's available, wedon't wanna miss out on that.
But by the same token, we needto acknowledge that if it's a
new environment, there there aregonna be new problems, there are
gonna be new risks, and and wewanna we wanna be eyes open
about that. Some people will bevery uncomfortable with an an
(37:28):
opportunistic environment. Otherpeople will be are very
uncomfortable with a plannedenvironment that are that's
that's very restricted, and it'sgot all these boundaries around
it. You know? But you got yougotta know yourself and know
your your tolerance level.
And and, too, even if you thinkyou can tolerate a lot of risk,
(37:48):
there's there's a level of riskthat's just just not conducive
of life. So we don't we don'twanna we don't wanna push beyond
the boundaries. You know, therethere's a reason why I haven't
gone to Mars. You know? And andthis book's too hard.
Now there's some folks that'd belike, man, I would love to be
there. I would love to do that.Great. You know? If you're the
(38:10):
if you can tolerate that and youcan make it work, great.
On the other hand, if, you know,you're just gonna be in a box,
it that if I mean, if you cansurvive in a box, it can happen,
you know? But some people, Imean, they they will not
flourish there, and you need toknow yourself.
Nick Oswald (38:34):
Yeah. I don't have anything to add to that. That
was well clear. I would like togo to Mars. Well, no.
I don't know.
Kenneth Vogt (38:40):
I I
Nick Oswald (38:40):
I like the idea, but but, yes, the quiet
commitment needs.
Kenneth Vogt (38:43):
Yeah. For sure. Well, I don't have anything to
add to it either. That was, thatwas the the end of my
presentation. So thank you,everybody, for listening.
Nick Oswald (38:54):
I think this is a really important topic for all
professions, but especiallywell, not especially. From
personal experience, I know thatit's important in science
because it's there are so manyillusions of of, real tracks,
you know, I mean, career tracks.And, well, they're not illusions
(39:16):
that do exist, but it's so easyto get hypnotized into just
following that and notevaluating yourself. There's
also a lot of, there's also alot of inputs in terms of
feedback and criticism andreview and Mhmm. Strange
management setups and all sortsof stuff that that can that can
(39:37):
demoralize you if you are andand and I think that the
demoralization compounds if youare not being introspective
because you get pulled along bythose tracks and you get pulled
along by the the criticism.
Yep. And, and so that's the thisis a real core skill for, for
sinuses. Keep evaluatingyourself. What are you good at?
(40:01):
How is it going?
What are you bad at? Is it afit? If it isn't a fit, what's a
better direction? But, I mean,I'm sure we've done episodes on
perseverance as well. That'salso a thing.
And it's not about just going,oh, this is getting difficult.
Let's stop. But it's honestlysteering your way in a direction
that that that fits for you. SoI think this is a great topic,
(40:24):
Ken. Thanks for that.
Kenneth Vogt (40:25):
Yeah. Alright. Great. Thank you.
Nick Oswald (40:27):
Okay. And thanks everyone for joining us. We will
be back in, in a month foranother episode. And you can
look on your look onBiteSizeBio.com in the podcast
section to find, The HappyScientist on whatever podcast
cast platform you use. Andthere, you can access all of the
(40:49):
the, there I don't know how manyepisodes we have now.
It's a lot of episodes on allsorts of really great and deep
topics, that that can help you.And if you find this useful, if
you find this useful today,please share it with a colleague
and, and let them get thebenefit as well. Share the
(41:09):
webinar or share the link to thepodcast page on BiteSize Bio,
that would be greatlyappreciated. So thanks to all of
you for joining us, and goodluck in your research. We'll see
you next time.
Kenneth Vogt (41:20):
Alright. Thank you all.
VX (41:27):
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