September 13, 2024 • 39 mins
#75 — We're told from a young age that patience is a virtue. But does that hold up to scrutiny?
In some respects, it seems so, given that impatience can be annoying to experience and make you unbearable to the people you're waiting on.
But what are the consequences of excessive patience? Does it become a pathological trait that results in excess tolerance and forbearance, which, in turn, stop you from getting what you want and perhaps make you afraid to stand up for yourself?
And remember, science is about defending your ideas and speaking up when you think something is wrong. Plus, whether we like it or not, science as a job and industry can be extremely competitive.
So, what can you do that gets you the benefits of patience without giving in to concession? Can you turn it on and off like a tap to get what you want? That's what we'll explore in this episode of The Happy Scientist.
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Episode Transcript
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Intro/Outro (00:30):
This is the Happy Scientist Podcast. Each episode
is designed to make you morefocused, more productive, and
more satisfied in the lab. Youcan find us online at
bitesizebio.com/happyscientist.Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt,
founder of the executivecoaching firm, Vera Claritas,
and doctor Nick Oswald, PhD,bioscientist, and founder of
(00:53):
Bite Size Bio.
Nick Oswald (01:00):
Hello. This is Nick Oswald welcoming you to this
Bite Size Bio webinar, whichtoday is a live episode of the
Happy Scientist podcast. If youwant to become a happier,
healthier, and more productivescientist, you are in the right
place. With me, as always, isthe Bite Size Bio Team's mister
Miyagi, whose name is misterKenneth Vogt. In this these
(01:22):
sessions, we hear from Kenmostly on principles that will
help shape you for a happier anda more successful career.
And along the way, I'll pitch inwith points from my personal
experience as a scientist andfrom working with Ken myself. If
you've got any questions, putthem into the questions box on
the right hand side of the yourscreen at any time, and I will
put them to Ken. Today, we willbe discussing discussing
(01:45):
patients and getting what youwant. Are they compatible? Okay.
That sounds a bit cryptic, Ken.What's going on there?
Kenneth Vogt (01:54):
Well, I I was thinking when I came up with
this particular topic, I I liketo take a contrarian view
because, you know, patienceseems like it should be a good
thing, but could it actuallyhold you back? And, you know, of
(02:15):
course, the whole point of theof this podcast is is to help
you accelerate your career andhelp you help you get places and
to help you to succeed. And yetwe're talking about patience. So
the first thing that comes tomind is isn't patience supposed
to be a virtue? I mean, howcould this be bad for you?
(02:37):
Because the the fact is you mayfind it desirable to be patient,
and you may feel like you needit. There may be times when when
you feel like a lack of patienceis causing you problems. But the
there's there's always thiswell, not opportunity, but this
possibility that whenever you dosomething that you will
(02:58):
overcorrect, and then you takeit too far. And that is that
definitely happens for somefolks when it comes to patients.
They start just waiting forthings to happen.
They they put things off. Theydon't stand up. They don't make
any noise. It's like, you knowwhat? I'm just gonna let this
(03:20):
settle.
I'm gonna let this work itselfout. And and then they become
passive. And in that passivity,things stop happening in some
cases. So, you know, that's thatthat's the beginning point of
this. So I I will I will put thequestion to you, Nick.
Do you ever have you ever foundpatience to get in your way
(03:43):
before?
Nick Oswald (03:45):
Well, I think yeah. I don't know. I I I've found
passivity to get in the waybefore and using patience as an
excuse. I guess that's whatyou're saying.
Kenneth Vogt (03:54):
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And and so so the the
question is, how do we hang onto the to the valuable part of
patients but not use it as acrutch or not not not pretend
that we're being patient whenactually all we're doing is
being passive. So so the theflip side of this is that people
(04:19):
don't like impatient people.
And we we sometimes we're beingpatient not because we wanna be
patient, but because we don'twanna be perceived as being
impatient. Because, I mean, thatcan that can go from being
viewed as being annoying tobeing viewed as unbearable. And
(04:40):
that's not good for your career.It's not gonna be good for you
if if impatience is the labelthat gets attached to you. So
how do we how do we balance thisout?
How do we how do we make surethat we're using patience when
it makes sense, but we're notusing patience as a crutch when
(05:02):
it doesn't make sense? So onething I would like to say about
patience is patience is a force,and I I use that particular word
on purpose. And then we'veprobably talked about this
before, the difference between apower and a force. And, you
(05:22):
know, just in terms of physics,you know, forces are something
is something that is alwayslimited and always opposed. So
if you think of patience assomething that is a force, then
you realize there's always somekind of restriction.
There's always some kind ofopposition there. Now the
(05:44):
opposition is coming from you.If you're being patient, you're
the one who is that opposingforce because people on the
receiving end of patients,they're not gonna complain.
Great. You're letting me dowhatever I want.
Awesome. You know? So I'm notgonna resist that, but you're
gonna resist that. And you maynot even realize you're
resisting it. You may notrealize how it's costing you
(06:08):
because it takes energy to bepatient.
And sometimes that is not a goodinvestment of energy. Sometimes
you need to you need to go, no.Not now. Not this way. Not this
time.
You gotta stand up and recognizethat that patience is just being
(06:29):
weak. And and that weakness isyou know what I mean? It's
weakening you. So you'reexpending energy, that's
weakening you. You're losingface, that's weakening you.
You know, there there's a lot ofways here that this can can
start to to pile up against you.Now that's not to say that that
(06:52):
we should stop being patient,and I'm gonna make the case for
patients here in a little bit.But but I really wanna call this
out as, are you being mindfulabout your patience? Are you
choosing? And are you choosingwisely when to be patient?
I mean, there are times whenwhen we just let somebody have
their way because they're justdifficult to deal with and and
(07:15):
they're just a constant problem.So we just we we we offer that
that particular individualpatients when all things being
equal wouldn't normally. Wemight not be willing to put up
with that from somebody else.But because there's such a ball
in the China shop, we we justlike, that's just not worth the
(07:35):
fight. And so so we give up onit.
So all we have to do is be moreaware of that stuff. And if
we're if we're dealing withsomebody like that, and it could
be our boss, we we wanna belooking for what are the
opportunities to stand up WhereI'm no longer just gonna take
the body blows, but I'm gonnaI'm gonna put my foot down and
(07:58):
say, look, this is this is atime when I have to when I have
to take a stand, when I whereI'm not gonna just let this
happen. And, you know, you mayfind there are little things
that are happening, you know,where everybody's I mean, I
don't wanna say everybody, butsay many people are doing
certain things that are areannoying you and are costing you
(08:20):
time and are are, impacting youraccess to resources or or tools,
and and you just never sayanything. That's not being
patient. That's being walked on.
If you could make it clear topeople, like, hey, we have to
leave this equipment set up forthe next person to run. I'm
(08:42):
tired of showing up at thispiece of equipment, and I gotta
reset it up every time becauseyou guys left it a mess. And,
you know, and maybe it's oneperson, maybe it's multiple
people, but those patterns getset up sometimes in your
operation. And somebody seessomebody else doesn't doesn't do
it. So they're like, why shouldI do it?
(09:03):
And then then it becomes thispattern where nobody does until
somebody stops being patientabout that, puts their hand up
and says, okay, no more. Wecan't do this anymore. We have
to we have to complete our tasksand clean up the mess afterwards
so that the next person won't behindered in in what they're
doing. And we've all had thosesituations where you're on a
(09:25):
schedule, you gotta get thingsdone, and then you realize I
have to do this preliminary workthat I wasn't planning on
because somebody else left amess for me. When I say a mess,
I mean, that could be literallyphysically a mess, but just, you
know, left things in adisordered way that that don't
allow you to just smoothly moveforward.
(09:47):
You know, if if there's a placefor everything and everything is
in its place, you can operatecleanly and carefully. And, you
know, in in the lab, I mean,there's so many times when
literal cleanliness matters,when literal, you know,
antiseptic nature has to bethere that we don't often deal
(10:11):
with outside of the lab. I mean,maybe you would do a little bit
in your kitchen. Obviously, yourkitchen, you wanna keep it
clean. You don't wanna don'twanna give the family food
poisoning, but but, I mean,you're dealing with tolerances
that are that are are muchtighter.
So I I wanna talk about thatidea of tolerance, because that
(10:32):
when it comes to patience, thebest you can hope for as a
result of patience is toleranceand forbearance. That's that's
when you're being patient,remember, as a force, it's
coming at a cost to you. And soyou can exhibit tolerance. You
can exhibit forbearance. Nowtolerance is a is a useful
(10:56):
concept in science.
You know, there there are plentyof things that you're doing
where the literal tolerances ofmeasurements matter. And and,
you know, you have to beaccurate within a certain
degree. So you have a you have ametaphor there for tolerance,
but, and you can see itsusefulness. But you need to
(11:21):
recognize that tolerance andacceptance are not the same
thing. So, you know, you you mayaccept a plus or minus of, you
know, 2% for something becausethat's acceptable.
It works. Right? When it comesto being a a numbers type thing.
But when we're talking about thehuman relations part of this,
(11:46):
there are some things that wejust cannot accept. It's it's
there is no, you know, plus orminus 2% of annoyance.
Right? They can I will allowthem to be this measurable
amount of annoying and no more?You know? It it it doesn't work
like that because it's becauseit's more subjective. So so we
(12:10):
need to be mindful about whatwill I tolerate and what won't I
tolerate.
You know, how much interruptionwill I accept in a meeting? How
much how much going, you know,off script will I allow in the
lab? There there's there's athere's a there's a limit there,
(12:34):
and and you have to decide whereit is. You have to choose it
because it's not gonna be soeasy as to say, well, the alarm
will go off when it hits 5,whatever that means. Right?
It isn't like that. You have todecide in any given moment when
is it really important that Idon't accept things going awry.
(12:54):
I have to keep things tight. Andthen there are other settings
where it's not it's not ascritical. And part of that may
happen to an in an environmentwhere you don't have full
control.
You know, if it's not yourmeeting, if it's not your
project, you'd you know, ifyou're if you're on the team
rather than leading the team,there may be different,
(13:15):
different standard that you willchoose to use. But, there are
times when, you know, being ateam member becomes oppressive
to us because it's just so outof out of harmony with what we
feel is is the most workable.Or, you know, maybe it's just
(13:36):
just a project you're just notthat not that into. It's just
not I mean, it's it's just work.It's just it's just grunt labor
to you, and you don't care thatmuch.
But there are other times whenwhen you really deeply care and
it really matters to you thatyou wanna be part of something
and and you want it to functionwell. Or sometimes, we wanna be
(13:57):
part of something to make sureit doesn't go wrong. You know,
we wanna be there to be the eyesand ears for the, you know, for
whatever stand you're taking onthat. And those are those are
times when being patient is notreally helping your cause. You
know, when you sign up to bepart of something so that you
(14:19):
can kinda be its watchdog, beingpatient isn't so much what you
wanna do.
It's it's it's less lessvaluable in that setting. Now
there are other times when,yeah, you could be patient as
long you know, as patient as theday is long as the saying goes.
It's fine. But it comes down tochoosing, I mean, any given
(14:42):
moment, when am I willing to betolerant of things, When am I
willing to let things go? Andwhen am I not?
And when when it feels wrong,you know, when I say wrong, I
don't necessarily mean morallywrong, but it feels out of out
of harmony with the objectivethat that you would like to see
(15:04):
happen there, you need to standup. And that's not the that is
not the moment to be patient. SoI will let you get an award
edgewise here before we go andtalk to the virtues and
patients.
Nick Oswald (15:19):
I was just thinking that I was gonna tell everybody
that this is the bit where yougo about Yoda sometimes. And and
it's really good, but you haveto really, like, drill down and
decipher it sometime sometimes.And, actually, again, just to go
back to that, if you've neverdone it, the the first few
episodes of this podcast helpwith some of the frameworks that
(15:39):
you were using there. But to tryand tease this apart a little
bit, the way that I take whatyou're saying there is that
patience versus, you know,impatience, if you wanna look at
it that way, it's not digital.Right?
It's it's it's analog.
Kenneth Vogt (15:57):
Right.
Nick Oswald (15:57):
And and you don't want to be at one end or the
other. And you you want to findyou don't wanna be overly
patient. You don't want to beoverly impatient, but you need
to find the, the happy medium,and that depends on what the
situation is. And, was thatwould you agree with that? Yeah.
Kenneth Vogt (16:19):
I would.
Nick Oswald (16:19):
Is that a good translation?
Kenneth Vogt (16:20):
We're about to get into is to really define
patients and what's what's goodabout it. And this is what's
gonna help us choose when whenit's called for. So Cool. The
the Next slide.
Nick Oswald (16:32):
Okay. The other way that I was looking at this
before you don't jump into that,though, is that Mhmm. The
patience versus impatience isnot the only continuum. It
depends on what you put. Itcould be patience versus
assertiveness.
So in a situation wheresomeone's behaving badly to you,
you can be patient or you can beassertive. You could be too
patient or too assertive, butthen what the best thing to do
(16:55):
is to find where you are on theon the, where where is best on
the continuum that gives you,you know, that gets you what you
want. You know? You you maybehave to step forward to to a
level, and some people will havea tendency to go too far towards
assertiveness or impatience oraggression or anger or
(17:17):
pushiness. Some people will haveto will tend to go too far
towards the patients.
Patient patient side of thingsand, believing that they're just
I I tend to do that actually,move towards the path aside
believing that I I that will,create the space, you know, that
(17:37):
let people get on with it, andthen it'll, it'll resolve. But
it doesn't always work likethat. You have there's a happy
medium, and so you have to beaware of where you are on
whatever continuum is, patienceand patience, patience,
aggression.
Kenneth Vogt (17:52):
Yes. And it's a moving target too. Yep. You
know, it's because what appliesin one setting may not apply in
the next setting.
Nick Oswald (17:59):
Exactly. Yep.
Kenneth Vogt (18:00):
So, you know, we have to be aware situationally
aware. So I wanna talk about thebenefits of patience here first
because sometimes this will helpyou decide whether it's worth
it. Because the patience comesat a cost, but this is this is
what you get for it. This is thevalue. So we'll start with that.
The first point is being patientcan reduce your stress. It can
(18:23):
help people to slow down, staycalm in a stressful situation.
And and, you know, I think it'swell documented by this point
that stress is a killer. Andstress is a career killer too.
It's not not just it hurts yourhealth, it hurts it hurts your
prospects for the future.
It and you bring it home and,you know, there's all kinds of
(18:45):
things about this. Sometimes,just realizing I need to just
accept what is happening hereand just not make a thing out of
it can reduce a lot of stress.Now that second point that I did
kind of alluded to, it's itimproves your mental health. And
I'm not just talking about whenwhen people are really close to
(19:06):
a breakdown, but, I mean, youwanna be mentally healthy just
like you wanna be physicallyhealthy. If you're running a low
grade fever all the time oryou've got a cough that just
won't go away, you know, it'sannoying.
It gets in your way, you know.The same thing happens with
mental health. If you can bemore at peace, feel more
relaxed, you you'll be moreemotionally resilient, and it
(19:29):
won't. Things just won't hurt asmuch. They won't they won't
cause as many problems.
Patients will help you makebetter decisions because in if
you're patient, it gives youtime to actually gather the
facts and then time to actuallymake rational decisions. Because
(19:50):
if we only make decisions basedon emotions, we're gonna make
mistakes. There's there's nogetting around it. And I
realized we're talking to apretty rational crowd here, the
you you you scientists, but Ialso know how human you are. So
we all have that some some ofthe emotional part of it coming
(20:11):
in.
So, you know, we we wanna beaware of that and see the
application because we careabout making good decisions. I
mean, it really does matter.Another thing that happens when
you're patient is it improvesrelationships. People get along
with you better. They likeworking with you better.
You're somebody that's notconstantly nitpicking and
needling. Other people will justenjoy working with you and will
(20:36):
want you on their team. Itthat's and that's gratifying for
you too. And again, it's it's acareer building thing to build
relationships because otherpeople are going places. You can
go with them, and you can takepeople with you too that are are
supportive of the things thatyou wanna get done.
So building relationships, isdefinitely aided by being
(20:59):
patient. You're also helped inachieving goals, but, because
patience can help you overcomeobstacles and can help you build
confidence. And, you know, thatcertainly, is something
necessary for career success andfor career satisfaction. So if
you like achieving goals,patience is a good tool.
(21:24):
Increased depreciation is aninteresting one because I I
think that often getsoverlooked.
The longer it takes to getsomething, the the greater you
appreciate it when when youfinally achieve it. So it's
like, you know, time makes theheart grow fonder as it were. So
if you have to put in someeffort and you gotta you gotta
(21:46):
lay back and let some thingsplay out to get what you want,
when you get it, it feelsbetter, and it locks things in.
So, you know, don't forget to beappreciative, as as things are
going along. Then finally, I'lltalk about strategic thinking.
Patience can give you time toanalyze the situation. It can
(22:10):
see, because that's the thing.You can be patient even though
you're not happy about what'shappening just so you could take
a breather, so you can step backand assess. And and it may allow
you to see some possiblesolutions that that might not
have been directly obviousbecause because you've had time
(22:31):
to ponder things. Now it's justlike the decision making part,
but, you know, strategicthinking is bigger picture.
So these are these are some ofthe things you get out of
patience. So if I started offmaking it sound like I was
saying, oh, don't be patient.No. I'm not saying don't be
patient. I'm saying be mindfulabout your patience.
(22:53):
And when it's when it's calledfor, I mean, look at all this
good stuff. You want this.Right?
Nick Oswald (22:59):
Choose how patient you want to be.
Kenneth Vogt (23:01):
Yeah. Exactly. So let's look at the other side of
that, the downside to patients.Like, how can that be? Well, I
happen to find a study that was,that was authored by, Paulo
Giuliano, and another Paulo,Paulo Sapienza.
(23:24):
Giuliano is is from UCLA.Sapienta is from Northwestern.
I'm these are good schools.Right? And they they started
with a a 2012 Gallup World Pollthat was asking about this,
about patients, and they foundout something interesting.
(23:46):
The survey found that, amoderate amount of patients will
maximize life satisfaction andemotional well-being. But beyond
that moderate level, higherlevels of patients have a
negative impact on well-being.And I'll have a I'll have a note
to the to the study in in in theshow notes. But it this this is
(24:12):
really making the point that Iwanted to make here that
patience isn't the all purposetool. You can't use it for
everything.
Sometimes, you need to not bepatient. Because if you have an
excessive delay ingratification, and, you know, we
know that delaying gratificationis a is a a good thing. You
(24:36):
know, it's it's a maturation.People don't delay
gratification. They can getinvolved in all kinds of
terrible things.
But there is a point wheredelaying your gratification,
just keeping delaying it, itstops being beneficial. We need
to win sometimes. Competition inthe workplace, I mean, it
(25:00):
sometimes requires us to be moreproactive. That's that is the
point here. And then this istrue in a lab as well as any
other kind of social setting,but, it's still it's still a
business as it were.
There are objectives to be met,and people have to work
together. And sometimes inworking together, there's
(25:21):
competition, and competition isuseful. So if we're if we're
always avoiding competition,we're we're costing ourselves.
That is that is a setting whereif we've just painted
competition, it's automaticallybad all the time, and I never
wanna compete, and I just don'twanna I just wanna get along
(25:42):
with everybody. That's not howhow the world works, and it's
not how your lab works.
And you've got I'm sure in inmost labs, you've got some
people with strong opinions andwhich is good, you know, But you
need you need to be one of them.You need you need to you need to
pick your battles too, and andyou need to win some. It it's
(26:06):
not it's not always so that youneed to lay down and just let
things happen. And the otherthing too is that just out of
self respect, you wanna beintellectually honest. If you
see things going in a way whereintellectual honesty has taken a
hit, you gotta stand up, say,no.
We're not we're not gonnapretend that, you know, that the
(26:28):
data says otherwise. If it sayswhat it says, it says what it
says. And, you know, be sure andtake a stand for those things,
and don't just be patient. Well,you know, they'll catch up
eventually. They'll start tounderstand.
No. Help them understand. Get inthere. Be a teacher. Be a
mentor.
Be a shepherd. Get them to getthem to the place they need to
go. That's that is the is whenpatience is no longer a virtue.
(27:00):
So finally, you get you gottapick your moments now. It's
like, how do I know?
How do I know when to be patientand when do I need to when do I
need to take a stand? You know?Sometimes it just comes down to
I've I've got I've, earned somechips. I have I've got some I've
(27:24):
I've got some political cloud.I've got I've got the
opportunity now to cash in thosechips, And sometimes you just do
that.
Anyhow, the the only choicethere is, like, well, is this
the moment? Do I wanna expend mypolitical capital right now?
When I say political, I don'tmean this in a negative way at
all. It's just, you know, it'sabout when you decide to take a
(27:49):
stand for a certain policy anddo that. And if you if you
bother to amass some authorityin an area, don't just waste
that.
Use it use it when it makessense. Now there are gonna be
times too when maybe it's I youmay don't have the political
capital, but you can seesomething is about to go
(28:10):
disastrously wrong. I need toput my hand up and say, woah. We
have to stop here. And and,obviously, that comes at a risk
sometimes.
Yep. Nobody likes to be theperson who's always saying no.
But sometimes, if other peoplearen't saying no and no needs to
be said, you gotta be the one.That is not a moment to be
(28:33):
patient. So like, oh, well, Iguess we'll just see what
happens.
Sometimes you gotta stand up.Another thing that may happen is
is somebody's reputation on theline. Now it could be your
reputation, but it could also besomeone else's. Or it could be
your group's reputation, yourlab's reputation, your field's
rep, you know, reputation. Inmoments like that, that is that
(28:58):
is a time for you to no longerjust be patient.
You just don't let it wash overyou and let and let reputation
be ruined because it's it'sreally easy for reputation to be
lost, and it's really hard toget it back. So, you know, we
you gotta be proactive aboutthat. And then finally, if
there's a setting where themission is at risk and, you
(29:19):
know, whatever it is you'reworking on, you know what's
gotta be accomplished. So, Imean, are you putting your grant
at risk, Or or is not are youputting it? Is is the grant
being put at risk?
Do you need to speak up andpoint that out? And I you know,
that's just one potentialmission. Obviously, we need to
stay funded, but but, 2, you mayreally care about the things
(29:41):
that you bothered to get grantsfor. So, if you feel things are
going the wrong way, get yourducks in a row, and then then
stand up for that. Don'tpatiently wait for everybody
else to solve the problembecause it we think that's being
patient.
Yep. I'm being patient waitingfor somebody else to speak up.
(30:01):
I'm being patient waiting forfor the boss to take a stand.
Like, you know, be your ownperson. Don't be afraid to take
a take a position.
And obviously, you need to pickthe things that matter. Don't
don't take weak positions on on,inconsequential things. Take
(30:23):
strong positions on things thatmatter. And when you do that,
you will find then when whenyou're patient, people have more
respect for that. Because whenif they realize, you know, you
you're the kind of person thatwould stand up if standing up
was needed, Then then peoplestart to trust you.
They they start to realize thatyou have leadership qualities
(30:45):
and you're you're somebody theycan follow. And even if it's
just to follow you as a peer,that is that they can join you
in your in your positions oryour or when you don't take a
position, That's that is, again,a a a very good way to use
patients properly and to and toavoid misusing it. So once
(31:09):
again, I'll let you, get a wordin there, Nick.
Nick Oswald (31:11):
Sure. I mean, I guess that one way to look at
this is in any given situationis look at where where is your
natural tendency to go. Do youtend to be too impatient, or do
you tend to be too or do youtend towards the impatient side
of things, or do you tend tendtowards the patient side of
things? And then if you're ifyou're like me and you tend tend
(31:35):
towards the patient side ofthings and you're not saying
something that you feel or notdoing something that you feel
needs to be done, the questionto ask yourself is, are you
being patient or are you beingfearful, or are you advocating,
or are you hoping that someoneelse will do what you want to
do? And in which case then, stepforward towards the impatience
(31:57):
or the assertiveness or whateveris at the other end of that
spectrum for you.
If you if you tend towardsimpatience and, then, and you
feel yourself going too fartowards it, you know, and all
the downsides that happen atthat end, then move back towards
patients. But wherever you tendto go, the the I think Ken's
(32:19):
overall message is that, thatthere's downsides at each end of
the spectrum. And so youImbalance is always You don't
want to be
Kenneth Vogt (32:30):
risky thing. Yeah.
Nick Oswald (32:31):
You don't want to be either end of those. You want
to be somewhere in the middle,and and that's where the
mindfulness comes in is choosingthat and be and asking yourself
the question is why am Istanding at this point? Is it
because I'm scared? Is I mean,the the the sort of the
impatient side of the theequation could be fear as well
as the impatient. You could bescared to say something and be
(32:54):
patient, you know, disguise itas patience.
You could be afraid of somethingnot happening, and so that
becomes an in impatience. Youknow? So that that's where then
fear maps onto that or all sortsof other emotions and things,
but that's taking that off in adifferent dynamic.
Kenneth Vogt (33:11):
Yeah. And and you can look at people that you know
and love and respect. Some ofthem are very patient. Some of
them are very impatient, and yetyou still respect them. Why?
Because the people that areproperly impatient, they don't
suffer fools. They're they knowtheir space. They get it. Yeah.
(33:33):
And maybe the people that arereally patient, you know, like,
my grandmother was reallypatient.
She was not a highly educatedwoman, but gosh, she was a
lovely woman. You know? And, youknow, I will always remember
that about her, but I've alsoworked with people that were
brilliantly intelligent and wererarely patient, and I love that
about them because they had sucha such a steel trap mind, you
(33:56):
know, that that you could followthem. You could trust they would
be looking in the rightdirection, and and you wanted to
be a part of what they weredoing.
Nick Oswald (34:06):
Yep. So
Kenneth Vogt (34:08):
and you you may find too that with with
yourself, maybe you do have atendency to one side of that
spectrum or the other, But maybeyou find that it's only in
certain areas. You know, like,I'm very patient with my kids,
but I'm not so patient with mywith, you know, my lab
assistants. You know, what's thedifference? What's you you gotta
(34:31):
look at it and go, well, does itis it make sense or not? Is it
fair?
Is it is it appropriate? And itmay well be. You know what I
mean? You're dealing with a 6year old. It's a lot different
than dealing with a, you know, a21 year old post grad.
Right? But then again, to ifyou're if you're accustomed to
(34:52):
coddling small children, do youthen port that to coddling your,
you know, your your college agestaff, you know. Well, no. You
don't wanna do that. You know,you get you gotta do what's
appropriate.
But and, also, you don't wannabring it home. Like, look. I'm
hard on these people. They'resmart, and they've already been
through years of education. Idon't wanna take that to my 3rd
(35:16):
grader, you know, because that'snot appropriate.
But, in the lab, obviously,you've got stuff you wanna get
done, and there are times whenbeing patient will help you get
it done. But there are timeswhen not being patient is what's
gonna help you get it done. Whenyou say, oh, no. We're not gonna
drag this out. You're gonna getthis done.
(35:37):
You're gonna make this work, youknow, and and you take a stand
for that, and it's appropriate.
Nick Oswald (35:43):
Yep. That's one of the patience is one of the kind
of, again, I refer to the theyou know, go back and look at
the the foundational 5, 6, firstepisodes of this podcast. Ken
talks about all sorts ofdifferent frameworks.
Kenneth Vogt (35:58):
9. 9? Okay.
Nick Oswald (36:01):
Okay. I think I say a different number every time,
but okay. There's 9 of them. Andbut they're very good. If this
is useful to you, go back andjust listen to those again.
Kenneth Vogt (36:10):
Yeah. So the the first three are on human needs.
Mhmm. The second three are oncore mindset.
Nick Oswald (36:18):
Yep.
Kenneth Vogt (36:19):
And the final three are on charisma factors.
So just to to clue you in onwhat that's about. And and they
they really are useful, and wedo reference them a lot, you
know, the the concepts a lot. Soit it it keeps applying.
Nick Oswald (36:35):
Yeah. And so this is this is an expansion on one
of those, you know, one of thethe elements of that, which is
is patients, obviously, and whento wield it and when to not. So
I think that was quite useful.It's, it's takes a little bit to
unpack, but and and, actually,it looks quite obvious once you
explain it. But unless it'sexplained, then you don't really
(36:56):
Yeah.
You you don't tend to take itinto account. But, hopefully, in
whatever situation you guys areall, working in or experiencing
at the moment. You can seemoments where you could see
areas where you can wherepatients would more patients
would be a benefit, but alsoareas where patients would be is
(37:16):
letting you down, and you maybeneed to turn on the gas a little
bit.
Kenneth Vogt (37:21):
Yeah. Exactly. Okay? Alright. Well, that's
that's what I had to say today.
Okay. Thank you, Nick, for allyour feedback in it.
Nick Oswald (37:28):
Good. And thanks for, for to the audience for
listening in and, and Ken for,as usual, some, some, great
insight. So as I've mentioned,if you've enjoyed this content,
please go back. And if you'venot done so already and listen
to those first nine episodesthat are packed with equally, if
(37:50):
not more useful wisdom becausethese are really the
foundations, those first nine.And, of course, please tell your
colleagues about this so that wecan spread the word about the
happy scientist and make morehappy scientists.
So, you can look out for usagain, appearing again on,
events dot bitesizebio.com wherethe that's the next one is
(38:13):
scheduled in a couple of weeks.Until then, good luck in your
research, and goodbye from allof us at Bite Size Bio.
Intro/Outro (38:27):
The happy scientist is brought to you by Bite Size
Bio, your mentor in the lab.Bite Size Bio features thousands
of articles and webinarscontributed by hundreds of PhD
scientists and scientificcompanies who freely offer their
hard won wisdom and solutions tothe bite sized bio
Kenneth Vogt (38:47):
community.
This is the Happy Scientist Podcast. Each episode
is designed to make you morefocused, more productive, and
more satisfied in the lab. Youcan find us online at
bitesizebio.com/happyscientist.Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt,
founder of the executivecoaching firm, Vera Claritas,
and doctor Nick Oswald, PhD,bioscientist, and founder of
(00:53):
Bite Size Bio.
Nick Oswald (01:00):
Hello. This is Nick Oswald welcoming you to this
Bite Size Bio webinar, whichtoday is a live episode of the
Happy Scientist podcast. If youwant to become a happier,
healthier, and more productivescientist, you are in the right
place. With me, as always, isthe Bite Size Bio Team's mister
Miyagi, whose name is misterKenneth Vogt. In this these
(01:22):
sessions, we hear from Kenmostly on principles that will
help shape you for a happier anda more successful career.
And along the way, I'll pitch inwith points from my personal
experience as a scientist andfrom working with Ken myself. If
you've got any questions, putthem into the questions box on
the right hand side of the yourscreen at any time, and I will
put them to Ken. Today, we willbe discussing discussing
(01:45):
patients and getting what youwant. Are they compatible? Okay.
That sounds a bit cryptic, Ken.What's going on there?
Kenneth Vogt (01:54):
Well, I I was thinking when I came up with
this particular topic, I I liketo take a contrarian view
because, you know, patienceseems like it should be a good
thing, but could it actuallyhold you back? And, you know, of
(02:15):
course, the whole point of theof this podcast is is to help
you accelerate your career andhelp you help you get places and
to help you to succeed. And yetwe're talking about patience. So
the first thing that comes tomind is isn't patience supposed
to be a virtue? I mean, howcould this be bad for you?
(02:37):
Because the the fact is you mayfind it desirable to be patient,
and you may feel like you needit. There may be times when when
you feel like a lack of patienceis causing you problems. But the
there's there's always thiswell, not opportunity, but this
possibility that whenever you dosomething that you will
(02:58):
overcorrect, and then you takeit too far. And that is that
definitely happens for somefolks when it comes to patients.
They start just waiting forthings to happen.
They they put things off. Theydon't stand up. They don't make
any noise. It's like, you knowwhat? I'm just gonna let this
(03:20):
settle.
I'm gonna let this work itselfout. And and then they become
passive. And in that passivity,things stop happening in some
cases. So, you know, that's thatthat's the beginning point of
this. So I I will I will put thequestion to you, Nick.
Do you ever have you ever foundpatience to get in your way
(03:43):
before?
Nick Oswald (03:45):
Well, I think yeah. I don't know. I I I've found
passivity to get in the waybefore and using patience as an
excuse. I guess that's whatyou're saying.
Kenneth Vogt (03:54):
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And and so so the the
question is, how do we hang onto the to the valuable part of
patients but not use it as acrutch or not not not pretend
that we're being patient whenactually all we're doing is
being passive. So so the theflip side of this is that people
(04:19):
don't like impatient people.
And we we sometimes we're beingpatient not because we wanna be
patient, but because we don'twanna be perceived as being
impatient. Because, I mean, thatcan that can go from being
viewed as being annoying tobeing viewed as unbearable. And
(04:40):
that's not good for your career.It's not gonna be good for you
if if impatience is the labelthat gets attached to you. So
how do we how do we balance thisout?
How do we how do we make surethat we're using patience when
it makes sense, but we're notusing patience as a crutch when
(05:02):
it doesn't make sense? So onething I would like to say about
patience is patience is a force,and I I use that particular word
on purpose. And then we'veprobably talked about this
before, the difference between apower and a force. And, you
(05:22):
know, just in terms of physics,you know, forces are something
is something that is alwayslimited and always opposed. So
if you think of patience assomething that is a force, then
you realize there's always somekind of restriction.
There's always some kind ofopposition there. Now the
(05:44):
opposition is coming from you.If you're being patient, you're
the one who is that opposingforce because people on the
receiving end of patients,they're not gonna complain.
Great. You're letting me dowhatever I want.
Awesome. You know? So I'm notgonna resist that, but you're
gonna resist that. And you maynot even realize you're
resisting it. You may notrealize how it's costing you
(06:08):
because it takes energy to bepatient.
And sometimes that is not a goodinvestment of energy. Sometimes
you need to you need to go, no.Not now. Not this way. Not this
time.
You gotta stand up and recognizethat that patience is just being
(06:29):
weak. And and that weakness isyou know what I mean? It's
weakening you. So you'reexpending energy, that's
weakening you. You're losingface, that's weakening you.
You know, there there's a lot ofways here that this can can
start to to pile up against you.Now that's not to say that that
(06:52):
we should stop being patient,and I'm gonna make the case for
patients here in a little bit.But but I really wanna call this
out as, are you being mindfulabout your patience? Are you
choosing? And are you choosingwisely when to be patient?
I mean, there are times whenwhen we just let somebody have
their way because they're justdifficult to deal with and and
(07:15):
they're just a constant problem.So we just we we we offer that
that particular individualpatients when all things being
equal wouldn't normally. Wemight not be willing to put up
with that from somebody else.But because there's such a ball
in the China shop, we we justlike, that's just not worth the
(07:35):
fight. And so so we give up onit.
So all we have to do is be moreaware of that stuff. And if
we're if we're dealing withsomebody like that, and it could
be our boss, we we wanna belooking for what are the
opportunities to stand up WhereI'm no longer just gonna take
the body blows, but I'm gonnaI'm gonna put my foot down and
(07:58):
say, look, this is this is atime when I have to when I have
to take a stand, when I whereI'm not gonna just let this
happen. And, you know, you mayfind there are little things
that are happening, you know,where everybody's I mean, I
don't wanna say everybody, butsay many people are doing
certain things that are areannoying you and are costing you
(08:20):
time and are are, impacting youraccess to resources or or tools,
and and you just never sayanything. That's not being
patient. That's being walked on.
If you could make it clear topeople, like, hey, we have to
leave this equipment set up forthe next person to run. I'm
(08:42):
tired of showing up at thispiece of equipment, and I gotta
reset it up every time becauseyou guys left it a mess. And,
you know, and maybe it's oneperson, maybe it's multiple
people, but those patterns getset up sometimes in your
operation. And somebody seessomebody else doesn't doesn't do
it. So they're like, why shouldI do it?
(09:03):
And then then it becomes thispattern where nobody does until
somebody stops being patientabout that, puts their hand up
and says, okay, no more. Wecan't do this anymore. We have
to we have to complete our tasksand clean up the mess afterwards
so that the next person won't behindered in in what they're
doing. And we've all had thosesituations where you're on a
(09:25):
schedule, you gotta get thingsdone, and then you realize I
have to do this preliminary workthat I wasn't planning on
because somebody else left amess for me. When I say a mess,
I mean, that could be literallyphysically a mess, but just, you
know, left things in adisordered way that that don't
allow you to just smoothly moveforward.
(09:47):
You know, if if there's a placefor everything and everything is
in its place, you can operatecleanly and carefully. And, you
know, in in the lab, I mean,there's so many times when
literal cleanliness matters,when literal, you know,
antiseptic nature has to bethere that we don't often deal
(10:11):
with outside of the lab. I mean,maybe you would do a little bit
in your kitchen. Obviously, yourkitchen, you wanna keep it
clean. You don't wanna don'twanna give the family food
poisoning, but but, I mean,you're dealing with tolerances
that are that are are muchtighter.
So I I wanna talk about thatidea of tolerance, because that
(10:32):
when it comes to patience, thebest you can hope for as a
result of patience is toleranceand forbearance. That's that's
when you're being patient,remember, as a force, it's
coming at a cost to you. And soyou can exhibit tolerance. You
can exhibit forbearance. Nowtolerance is a is a useful
(10:56):
concept in science.
You know, there there are plentyof things that you're doing
where the literal tolerances ofmeasurements matter. And and,
you know, you have to beaccurate within a certain
degree. So you have a you have ametaphor there for tolerance,
but, and you can see itsusefulness. But you need to
(11:21):
recognize that tolerance andacceptance are not the same
thing. So, you know, you you mayaccept a plus or minus of, you
know, 2% for something becausethat's acceptable.
It works. Right? When it comesto being a a numbers type thing.
But when we're talking about thehuman relations part of this,
(11:46):
there are some things that wejust cannot accept. It's it's
there is no, you know, plus orminus 2% of annoyance.
Right? They can I will allowthem to be this measurable
amount of annoying and no more?You know? It it it doesn't work
like that because it's becauseit's more subjective. So so we
(12:10):
need to be mindful about whatwill I tolerate and what won't I
tolerate.
You know, how much interruptionwill I accept in a meeting? How
much how much going, you know,off script will I allow in the
lab? There there's there's athere's a there's a limit there,
(12:34):
and and you have to decide whereit is. You have to choose it
because it's not gonna be soeasy as to say, well, the alarm
will go off when it hits 5,whatever that means. Right?
It isn't like that. You have todecide in any given moment when
is it really important that Idon't accept things going awry.
(12:54):
I have to keep things tight. Andthen there are other settings
where it's not it's not ascritical. And part of that may
happen to an in an environmentwhere you don't have full
control.
You know, if it's not yourmeeting, if it's not your
project, you'd you know, ifyou're if you're on the team
rather than leading the team,there may be different,
(13:15):
different standard that you willchoose to use. But, there are
times when, you know, being ateam member becomes oppressive
to us because it's just so outof out of harmony with what we
feel is is the most workable.Or, you know, maybe it's just
(13:36):
just a project you're just notthat not that into. It's just
not I mean, it's it's just work.It's just it's just grunt labor
to you, and you don't care thatmuch.
But there are other times whenwhen you really deeply care and
it really matters to you thatyou wanna be part of something
and and you want it to functionwell. Or sometimes, we wanna be
(13:57):
part of something to make sureit doesn't go wrong. You know,
we wanna be there to be the eyesand ears for the, you know, for
whatever stand you're taking onthat. And those are those are
times when being patient is notreally helping your cause. You
know, when you sign up to bepart of something so that you
(14:19):
can kinda be its watchdog, beingpatient isn't so much what you
wanna do.
It's it's it's less lessvaluable in that setting. Now
there are other times when,yeah, you could be patient as
long you know, as patient as theday is long as the saying goes.
It's fine. But it comes down tochoosing, I mean, any given
(14:42):
moment, when am I willing to betolerant of things, When am I
willing to let things go? Andwhen am I not?
And when when it feels wrong,you know, when I say wrong, I
don't necessarily mean morallywrong, but it feels out of out
of harmony with the objectivethat that you would like to see
(15:04):
happen there, you need to standup. And that's not the that is
not the moment to be patient. SoI will let you get an award
edgewise here before we go andtalk to the virtues and
patients.
Nick Oswald (15:19):
I was just thinking that I was gonna tell everybody
that this is the bit where yougo about Yoda sometimes. And and
it's really good, but you haveto really, like, drill down and
decipher it sometime sometimes.And, actually, again, just to go
back to that, if you've neverdone it, the the first few
episodes of this podcast helpwith some of the frameworks that
(15:39):
you were using there. But to tryand tease this apart a little
bit, the way that I take whatyou're saying there is that
patience versus, you know,impatience, if you wanna look at
it that way, it's not digital.Right?
It's it's it's analog.
Kenneth Vogt (15:57):
Right.
Nick Oswald (15:57):
And and you don't want to be at one end or the
other. And you you want to findyou don't wanna be overly
patient. You don't want to beoverly impatient, but you need
to find the, the happy medium,and that depends on what the
situation is. And, was thatwould you agree with that? Yeah.
Kenneth Vogt (16:19):
I would.
Nick Oswald (16:19):
Is that a good translation?
Kenneth Vogt (16:20):
We're about to get into is to really define
patients and what's what's goodabout it. And this is what's
gonna help us choose when whenit's called for. So Cool. The
the Next slide.
Nick Oswald (16:32):
Okay. The other way that I was looking at this
before you don't jump into that,though, is that Mhmm. The
patience versus impatience isnot the only continuum. It
depends on what you put. Itcould be patience versus
assertiveness.
So in a situation wheresomeone's behaving badly to you,
you can be patient or you can beassertive. You could be too
patient or too assertive, butthen what the best thing to do
(16:55):
is to find where you are on theon the, where where is best on
the continuum that gives you,you know, that gets you what you
want. You know? You you maybehave to step forward to to a
level, and some people will havea tendency to go too far towards
assertiveness or impatience oraggression or anger or
(17:17):
pushiness. Some people will haveto will tend to go too far
towards the patients.
Patient patient side of thingsand, believing that they're just
I I tend to do that actually,move towards the path aside
believing that I I that will,create the space, you know, that
(17:37):
let people get on with it, andthen it'll, it'll resolve. But
it doesn't always work likethat. You have there's a happy
medium, and so you have to beaware of where you are on
whatever continuum is, patienceand patience, patience,
aggression.
Kenneth Vogt (17:52):
Yes. And it's a moving target too. Yep. You
know, it's because what appliesin one setting may not apply in
the next setting.
Nick Oswald (17:59):
Exactly. Yep.
Kenneth Vogt (18:00):
So, you know, we have to be aware situationally
aware. So I wanna talk about thebenefits of patience here first
because sometimes this will helpyou decide whether it's worth
it. Because the patience comesat a cost, but this is this is
what you get for it. This is thevalue. So we'll start with that.
The first point is being patientcan reduce your stress. It can
(18:23):
help people to slow down, staycalm in a stressful situation.
And and, you know, I think it'swell documented by this point
that stress is a killer. Andstress is a career killer too.
It's not not just it hurts yourhealth, it hurts it hurts your
prospects for the future.
It and you bring it home and,you know, there's all kinds of
(18:45):
things about this. Sometimes,just realizing I need to just
accept what is happening hereand just not make a thing out of
it can reduce a lot of stress.Now that second point that I did
kind of alluded to, it's itimproves your mental health. And
I'm not just talking about whenwhen people are really close to
(19:06):
a breakdown, but, I mean, youwanna be mentally healthy just
like you wanna be physicallyhealthy. If you're running a low
grade fever all the time oryou've got a cough that just
won't go away, you know, it'sannoying.
It gets in your way, you know.The same thing happens with
mental health. If you can bemore at peace, feel more
relaxed, you you'll be moreemotionally resilient, and it
(19:29):
won't. Things just won't hurt asmuch. They won't they won't
cause as many problems.
Patients will help you makebetter decisions because in if
you're patient, it gives youtime to actually gather the
facts and then time to actuallymake rational decisions. Because
(19:50):
if we only make decisions basedon emotions, we're gonna make
mistakes. There's there's nogetting around it. And I
realized we're talking to apretty rational crowd here, the
you you you scientists, but Ialso know how human you are. So
we all have that some some ofthe emotional part of it coming
(20:11):
in.
So, you know, we we wanna beaware of that and see the
application because we careabout making good decisions. I
mean, it really does matter.Another thing that happens when
you're patient is it improvesrelationships. People get along
with you better. They likeworking with you better.
You're somebody that's notconstantly nitpicking and
needling. Other people will justenjoy working with you and will
(20:36):
want you on their team. Itthat's and that's gratifying for
you too. And again, it's it's acareer building thing to build
relationships because otherpeople are going places. You can
go with them, and you can takepeople with you too that are are
supportive of the things thatyou wanna get done.
So building relationships, isdefinitely aided by being
(20:59):
patient. You're also helped inachieving goals, but, because
patience can help you overcomeobstacles and can help you build
confidence. And, you know, thatcertainly, is something
necessary for career success andfor career satisfaction. So if
you like achieving goals,patience is a good tool.
(21:24):
Increased depreciation is aninteresting one because I I
think that often getsoverlooked.
The longer it takes to getsomething, the the greater you
appreciate it when when youfinally achieve it. So it's
like, you know, time makes theheart grow fonder as it were. So
if you have to put in someeffort and you gotta you gotta
(21:46):
lay back and let some thingsplay out to get what you want,
when you get it, it feelsbetter, and it locks things in.
So, you know, don't forget to beappreciative, as as things are
going along. Then finally, I'lltalk about strategic thinking.
Patience can give you time toanalyze the situation. It can
(22:10):
see, because that's the thing.You can be patient even though
you're not happy about what'shappening just so you could take
a breather, so you can step backand assess. And and it may allow
you to see some possiblesolutions that that might not
have been directly obviousbecause because you've had time
(22:31):
to ponder things. Now it's justlike the decision making part,
but, you know, strategicthinking is bigger picture.
So these are these are some ofthe things you get out of
patience. So if I started offmaking it sound like I was
saying, oh, don't be patient.No. I'm not saying don't be
patient. I'm saying be mindfulabout your patience.
(22:53):
And when it's when it's calledfor, I mean, look at all this
good stuff. You want this.Right?
Nick Oswald (22:59):
Choose how patient you want to be.
Kenneth Vogt (23:01):
Yeah. Exactly. So let's look at the other side of
that, the downside to patients.Like, how can that be? Well, I
happen to find a study that was,that was authored by, Paulo
Giuliano, and another Paulo,Paulo Sapienza.
(23:24):
Giuliano is is from UCLA.Sapienta is from Northwestern.
I'm these are good schools.Right? And they they started
with a a 2012 Gallup World Pollthat was asking about this,
about patients, and they foundout something interesting.
(23:46):
The survey found that, amoderate amount of patients will
maximize life satisfaction andemotional well-being. But beyond
that moderate level, higherlevels of patients have a
negative impact on well-being.And I'll have a I'll have a note
to the to the study in in in theshow notes. But it this this is
(24:12):
really making the point that Iwanted to make here that
patience isn't the all purposetool. You can't use it for
everything.
Sometimes, you need to not bepatient. Because if you have an
excessive delay ingratification, and, you know, we
know that delaying gratificationis a is a a good thing. You
(24:36):
know, it's it's a maturation.People don't delay
gratification. They can getinvolved in all kinds of
terrible things.
But there is a point wheredelaying your gratification,
just keeping delaying it, itstops being beneficial. We need
to win sometimes. Competition inthe workplace, I mean, it
(25:00):
sometimes requires us to be moreproactive. That's that is the
point here. And then this istrue in a lab as well as any
other kind of social setting,but, it's still it's still a
business as it were.
There are objectives to be met,and people have to work
together. And sometimes inworking together, there's
(25:21):
competition, and competition isuseful. So if we're if we're
always avoiding competition,we're we're costing ourselves.
That is that is a setting whereif we've just painted
competition, it's automaticallybad all the time, and I never
wanna compete, and I just don'twanna I just wanna get along
(25:42):
with everybody. That's not howhow the world works, and it's
not how your lab works.
And you've got I'm sure in inmost labs, you've got some
people with strong opinions andwhich is good, you know, But you
need you need to be one of them.You need you need to you need to
pick your battles too, and andyou need to win some. It it's
(26:06):
not it's not always so that youneed to lay down and just let
things happen. And the otherthing too is that just out of
self respect, you wanna beintellectually honest. If you
see things going in a way whereintellectual honesty has taken a
hit, you gotta stand up, say,no.
We're not we're not gonnapretend that, you know, that the
(26:28):
data says otherwise. If it sayswhat it says, it says what it
says. And, you know, be sure andtake a stand for those things,
and don't just be patient. Well,you know, they'll catch up
eventually. They'll start tounderstand.
No. Help them understand. Get inthere. Be a teacher. Be a
mentor.
Be a shepherd. Get them to getthem to the place they need to
go. That's that is the is whenpatience is no longer a virtue.
(27:00):
So finally, you get you gottapick your moments now. It's
like, how do I know?
How do I know when to be patientand when do I need to when do I
need to take a stand? You know?Sometimes it just comes down to
I've I've got I've, earned somechips. I have I've got some I've
(27:24):
I've got some political cloud.I've got I've got the
opportunity now to cash in thosechips, And sometimes you just do
that.
Anyhow, the the only choicethere is, like, well, is this
the moment? Do I wanna expend mypolitical capital right now?
When I say political, I don'tmean this in a negative way at
all. It's just, you know, it'sabout when you decide to take a
(27:49):
stand for a certain policy anddo that. And if you if you
bother to amass some authorityin an area, don't just waste
that.
Use it use it when it makessense. Now there are gonna be
times too when maybe it's I youmay don't have the political
capital, but you can seesomething is about to go
(28:10):
disastrously wrong. I need toput my hand up and say, woah. We
have to stop here. And and,obviously, that comes at a risk
sometimes.
Yep. Nobody likes to be theperson who's always saying no.
But sometimes, if other peoplearen't saying no and no needs to
be said, you gotta be the one.That is not a moment to be
(28:33):
patient. So like, oh, well, Iguess we'll just see what
happens.
Sometimes you gotta stand up.Another thing that may happen is
is somebody's reputation on theline. Now it could be your
reputation, but it could also besomeone else's. Or it could be
your group's reputation, yourlab's reputation, your field's
rep, you know, reputation. Inmoments like that, that is that
(28:58):
is a time for you to no longerjust be patient.
You just don't let it wash overyou and let and let reputation
be ruined because it's it'sreally easy for reputation to be
lost, and it's really hard toget it back. So, you know, we
you gotta be proactive aboutthat. And then finally, if
there's a setting where themission is at risk and, you
(29:19):
know, whatever it is you'reworking on, you know what's
gotta be accomplished. So, Imean, are you putting your grant
at risk, Or or is not are youputting it? Is is the grant
being put at risk?
Do you need to speak up andpoint that out? And I you know,
that's just one potentialmission. Obviously, we need to
stay funded, but but, 2, you mayreally care about the things
(29:41):
that you bothered to get grantsfor. So, if you feel things are
going the wrong way, get yourducks in a row, and then then
stand up for that. Don'tpatiently wait for everybody
else to solve the problembecause it we think that's being
patient.
Yep. I'm being patient waitingfor somebody else to speak up.
(30:01):
I'm being patient waiting forfor the boss to take a stand.
Like, you know, be your ownperson. Don't be afraid to take
a take a position.
And obviously, you need to pickthe things that matter. Don't
don't take weak positions on on,inconsequential things. Take
(30:23):
strong positions on things thatmatter. And when you do that,
you will find then when whenyou're patient, people have more
respect for that. Because whenif they realize, you know, you
you're the kind of person thatwould stand up if standing up
was needed, Then then peoplestart to trust you.
They they start to realize thatyou have leadership qualities
(30:45):
and you're you're somebody theycan follow. And even if it's
just to follow you as a peer,that is that they can join you
in your in your positions oryour or when you don't take a
position, That's that is, again,a a a very good way to use
patients properly and to and toavoid misusing it. So once
(31:09):
again, I'll let you, get a wordin there, Nick.
Nick Oswald (31:11):
Sure. I mean, I guess that one way to look at
this is in any given situationis look at where where is your
natural tendency to go. Do youtend to be too impatient, or do
you tend to be too or do youtend towards the impatient side
of things, or do you tend tendtowards the patient side of
things? And then if you're ifyou're like me and you tend tend
(31:35):
towards the patient side ofthings and you're not saying
something that you feel or notdoing something that you feel
needs to be done, the questionto ask yourself is, are you
being patient or are you beingfearful, or are you advocating,
or are you hoping that someoneelse will do what you want to
do? And in which case then, stepforward towards the impatience
(31:57):
or the assertiveness or whateveris at the other end of that
spectrum for you.
If you if you tend towardsimpatience and, then, and you
feel yourself going too fartowards it, you know, and all
the downsides that happen atthat end, then move back towards
patients. But wherever you tendto go, the the I think Ken's
(32:19):
overall message is that, thatthere's downsides at each end of
the spectrum. And so youImbalance is always You don't
want to be
Kenneth Vogt (32:30):
risky thing. Yeah.
Nick Oswald (32:31):
You don't want to be either end of those. You want
to be somewhere in the middle,and and that's where the
mindfulness comes in is choosingthat and be and asking yourself
the question is why am Istanding at this point? Is it
because I'm scared? Is I mean,the the the sort of the
impatient side of the theequation could be fear as well
as the impatient. You could bescared to say something and be
(32:54):
patient, you know, disguise itas patience.
You could be afraid of somethingnot happening, and so that
becomes an in impatience. Youknow? So that that's where then
fear maps onto that or all sortsof other emotions and things,
but that's taking that off in adifferent dynamic.
Kenneth Vogt (33:11):
Yeah. And and you can look at people that you know
and love and respect. Some ofthem are very patient. Some of
them are very impatient, and yetyou still respect them. Why?
Because the people that areproperly impatient, they don't
suffer fools. They're they knowtheir space. They get it. Yeah.
(33:33):
And maybe the people that arereally patient, you know, like,
my grandmother was reallypatient.
She was not a highly educatedwoman, but gosh, she was a
lovely woman. You know? And, youknow, I will always remember
that about her, but I've alsoworked with people that were
brilliantly intelligent and wererarely patient, and I love that
about them because they had sucha such a steel trap mind, you
(33:56):
know, that that you could followthem. You could trust they would
be looking in the rightdirection, and and you wanted to
be a part of what they weredoing.
Nick Oswald (34:06):
Yep. So
Kenneth Vogt (34:08):
and you you may find too that with with
yourself, maybe you do have atendency to one side of that
spectrum or the other, But maybeyou find that it's only in
certain areas. You know, like,I'm very patient with my kids,
but I'm not so patient with mywith, you know, my lab
assistants. You know, what's thedifference? What's you you gotta
(34:31):
look at it and go, well, does itis it make sense or not? Is it
fair?
Is it is it appropriate? And itmay well be. You know what I
mean? You're dealing with a 6year old. It's a lot different
than dealing with a, you know, a21 year old post grad.
Right? But then again, to ifyou're if you're accustomed to
(34:52):
coddling small children, do youthen port that to coddling your,
you know, your your college agestaff, you know. Well, no. You
don't wanna do that. You know,you get you gotta do what's
appropriate.
But and, also, you don't wannabring it home. Like, look. I'm
hard on these people. They'resmart, and they've already been
through years of education. Idon't wanna take that to my 3rd
(35:16):
grader, you know, because that'snot appropriate.
But, in the lab, obviously,you've got stuff you wanna get
done, and there are times whenbeing patient will help you get
it done. But there are timeswhen not being patient is what's
gonna help you get it done. Whenyou say, oh, no. We're not gonna
drag this out. You're gonna getthis done.
(35:37):
You're gonna make this work, youknow, and and you take a stand
for that, and it's appropriate.
Nick Oswald (35:43):
Yep. That's one of the patience is one of the kind
of, again, I refer to the theyou know, go back and look at
the the foundational 5, 6, firstepisodes of this podcast. Ken
talks about all sorts ofdifferent frameworks.
Kenneth Vogt (35:58):
9. 9? Okay.
Nick Oswald (36:01):
Okay. I think I say a different number every time,
but okay. There's 9 of them. Andbut they're very good. If this
is useful to you, go back andjust listen to those again.
Kenneth Vogt (36:10):
Yeah. So the the first three are on human needs.
Mhmm. The second three are oncore mindset.
Nick Oswald (36:18):
Yep.
Kenneth Vogt (36:19):
And the final three are on charisma factors.
So just to to clue you in onwhat that's about. And and they
they really are useful, and wedo reference them a lot, you
know, the the concepts a lot. Soit it it keeps applying.
Nick Oswald (36:35):
Yeah. And so this is this is an expansion on one
of those, you know, one of thethe elements of that, which is
is patients, obviously, and whento wield it and when to not. So
I think that was quite useful.It's, it's takes a little bit to
unpack, but and and, actually,it looks quite obvious once you
explain it. But unless it'sexplained, then you don't really
(36:56):
Yeah.
You you don't tend to take itinto account. But, hopefully, in
whatever situation you guys areall, working in or experiencing
at the moment. You can seemoments where you could see
areas where you can wherepatients would more patients
would be a benefit, but alsoareas where patients would be is
(37:16):
letting you down, and you maybeneed to turn on the gas a little
bit.
Kenneth Vogt (37:21):
Yeah. Exactly. Okay? Alright. Well, that's
that's what I had to say today.
Okay. Thank you, Nick, for allyour feedback in it.
Nick Oswald (37:28):
Good. And thanks for, for to the audience for
listening in and, and Ken for,as usual, some, some, great
insight. So as I've mentioned,if you've enjoyed this content,
please go back. And if you'venot done so already and listen
to those first nine episodesthat are packed with equally, if
(37:50):
not more useful wisdom becausethese are really the
foundations, those first nine.And, of course, please tell your
colleagues about this so that wecan spread the word about the
happy scientist and make morehappy scientists.
So, you can look out for usagain, appearing again on,
events dot bitesizebio.com wherethe that's the next one is
(38:13):
scheduled in a couple of weeks.Until then, good luck in your
research, and goodbye from allof us at Bite Size Bio.
Intro/Outro (38:27):
The happy scientist is brought to you by Bite Size
Bio, your mentor in the lab.Bite Size Bio features thousands
of articles and webinarscontributed by hundreds of PhD
scientists and scientificcompanies who freely offer their
hard won wisdom and solutions tothe bite sized bio
Kenneth Vogt (38:47):
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