February 14, 2025 • 40 mins
Ever feel a mix of frustration and nostalgia when you see new faces in the lab, fresh and full of questions?
Are you the kind of person who takes them under your wing, or does their naivety annoy you and get in the way of your lab work?
It’s easy to forget that we all started somewhere, and mentoring these budding scientists is the key to advancing not only their careers but also science as a whole.
In this episode of The Happy Scientist, we explore the vital role of mentorship in the lab.
Discover how you can become an effective guide for the next generation of scientists, the benefits of sharing your knowledge and experience, and the surprising ways mentorship can enrich your own professional journey.
Watch or Listen to all episodes of The Happy Scientist podcast here: https://thehappyscientist.bitesizebio.com
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If you enjoyed this episode and want more practical tips on being a happy and successful scientist, we can help. Download The Happy Scientist Reference Pack today, and reignite your passion for science.
https://bitesizebio.com/the-happy-scientist-reference-pack/?ref=bsb-podcast
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Episode Transcript
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VX (00:30):
This is the Happy Scientist podcast. Each episode is
designed to make you morefocused, more productive, and
more satisfied in the lab. Youcan find us online at
bitesizebio.com/happyscientist.Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt,
founder of the executivecoaching firm, Vera Claritas,
and doctor Nick Oswald, PhD,bioscientist, and founder of
(00:53):
Bite Size
Bio.
Skye Marshall (00:59):
Hello. This is Sky Marshall, a content creator
at BiteSize Bio, welcoming youto this BiteSize Bio webinar,
which today is a live episode ofthe Happy Scientist podcast. If
you want to become a happier,healthier, and more productive
scientist, you're in the rightplace. With me is Bite Size
Bio's vister Kenneth Vogt. Inthese sessions we hear from Ken
(01:23):
mostly on principles that willhelp shape you for a happier and
more successful career and alongthe way I am going to try and
pitch in with points from mypersonal experience as a
scientist.
If you have any questions alongthe way, put them into the
questions box on the side ofyour screen, and I'll put them
to Ken. So today, we will bediscussing why be a mentor to
(01:48):
other scientists. So over toyou, Ken.
Ken Vogt (01:52):
Alright. Hey, Skye. It's, good to have you on the
Happy Scientist. You know,folks, normally, my cohost is
doctor Nick Oswald, as you know.Occasionally, it has been doctor
Tom Warwick, but today, it'sdoctor Sky Marshall.
So lucky me, I'm surrounded byPhDs. So
Skye Marshall (02:13):
Lucky me, I get to debut on the podcast while
Nick
Ken Vogt (02:16):
is away. Well, there we go. So this is an important
question. Why be a mentor toother scientists? You know, why
should you bother?
Don't you have enough going on?Haven't you got enough on your
plate to not have to go throughthis extra effort? Well, I I
(02:37):
will happily acknowledge that,of course, you have a lot on
your plate. But the science isis a big area, and it's a very
collaborative area, and it needspeople who are working together.
And, hopefully, you're gonna beone of those people.
So I will start off with talkingabout the environment that that
(02:58):
you find yourself in. And and itmay feel like sometimes you look
around and go, who are theselittle snot nose kids in my lab?
You know? But, you know,remember, yeah, they they may be
young or younger than you, yetthey're highly educated. Many
cases are also PhDs or at least,you know, they're they're post
(03:20):
you know, they're or they'repostdocs or they're working in
their PhDs or or at whateverlevel they're at.
But if they're in a lab doingthis kind of work, chances are
they're pretty smart people. Noware they the are they as
brilliant as you? Well, maybemaybe some of them aren't, but
the the fact is the bar is stillpretty high. And and yet you
(03:42):
gotta remember that there's abunch of things that you know
now that are second nature. Youdon't think about it very much.
But you didn't you didn't startoff knowing that stuff. You
weren't born knowing thesethings. You may have had a
natural affinity for the kind ofscience that you prefer or that
you pursue, but that affinity isnot the same as experience.
(04:04):
Everybody starts off that way.So rather than lamenting the
fact that other people are lessexperienced than you, don't have
the the insights that you haveworked hard to cultivate
already, isn't it better just tolook at what is the environment
I'm actually in?
What is it? What is really goingon here? And what do the people
(04:28):
in my lab need to know? Now itmay be that you're looking at
this from the standpoint ofjust, you know, I'm I'm just one
of of several or even manyscientists working in this lab
on various things. You may feellike, well, I'm not I'm not the
PI.
It's not my job. I'm why why I'mwhy do I have to worry about
(04:51):
this? Set those why questionsaway for for now. But right now,
let's just see how it actuallyis. Do people know what they
need to know?
Do they know where to go whenthey don't know? And can you
take some at least someresponsibility for helping
(05:11):
people get up to speed even ifeven if it's not your primary
responsibility, can you besomebody that says, well, when
you encounter this, hey. Checkhere. The here's we've got a
protocol for that. You can youcan find that here, or here's
here's where to find the rightequipment to do the things that
(05:32):
that you're tasked to do.
I mean, just just being a goodbro as it were. You know, just
being being someone who'shelpful to others is quite
useful, and and it will makeyour your environment easier. If
you're surrounded by frustratedand and, you know, people are
(05:55):
not successfully completingtheir tasks, it's a bad
environment for you. So it'sit's absolutely in your personal
interest to have everybody as upto speed as they can be. Now
maybe you can't take them allthe way through what they need
to do.
Some of that may be on them.They need to step up, and they
need to learn and that kind ofthing. But if you can do some
(06:18):
part in that, you make your lifeeasier too. On top of that, you
are making their lives easier,and that may well bring you
benefits in the future. If youhave a reputation of being
somebody that that can becounted on to help, who who's
got a collaborative nature tothem, you you don't know how
(06:40):
that's gonna play out in thefuture.
And we don't know where thesepeople are gonna or they're
gonna go in their careerseither. You you may end up
working for one of these peoplein the future, and all that may
sound a little disconcerting,but it's not necessarily so bad.
If if you find a you know,somebody who's young and new in
this space, and they're reallyexcelling, and they're showing
(07:00):
themselves to be creative andinventive and and smart and open
to learning, those are goodpeople to work with. They're
good people to work for. So, youknow, even if you don't have the
aspiration of being in charge ofall these people for the rest of
their careers, Understand thatit's a, yeah, it's a river we're
(07:25):
all jumping in.
You just never know whichmolecule water molecules are
gonna end up where. So take takethat environment into account.
So is that did I did I hearsomething you wanted to
interject there, Skye, or am Ijust hearing things? Oh, I
Skye Marshall (07:40):
was just laughing that it was a river we're all
jumping in.
Ken Vogt (07:43):
Yes. So I presume you have worked in the lab in the
past.
Skye Marshall (07:50):
I have. I've worked in several labs. I've had
a bit of a funny squiggly,academic career where I did 2
masters actually, and then a PhDthat was between a few labs. So
one aspect of that is I feellike I never really had a mentor
(08:10):
so to speak because I wasalways, you know, leaving the
lab to go to another lab butI've definitely had lots of
people that helped me along theway and then yeah, and the other
way I was thinking, have Imentored anyone myself? But not
in a practical, long term sense,but hopefully I can be helpful.
(08:31):
I love that you started withacknowledging how busy people
already are because myexperience has just been people
rushing around. You can nevercatch people. You yourself are
really busy. It can be quite astressful atmosphere. But, yeah,
like you said, it's it's betterto be collaborative because it
then it just makes yourenvironment better.
(08:51):
So if you are stressed, I mean,hope hopefully would help you
make your own environment betterand would address that fact,
Ken Vogt (09:00):
that Right.
Skye Marshall (09:01):
Negative part of your experience.
Ken Vogt (09:04):
And you and if you're having that experience, chances
are the people around you aretoo. Yeah. And everybody's not
on their own yeah. They're ontheir own trajectory. Maybe
they're having the exact kind ofexperience you are.
Maybe they've had it in thepast. Maybe they haven't had it
yet, but they're gonna. Yeah.So, yeah, the science is
especially requirescollaboration. It's it's there
(09:29):
aren't really many NikolaTesla's anymore who just work by
themselves.
But, you know, I mean, Tesla'san interesting example of
someone who came up with allthis brilliant stuff, and yet
we're still trying to unpack itin many cases because he he
didn't collaborate very wellwith others. And and it may well
be that some of the things helearned will be lost forever, so
(09:51):
or won't be found again, atleast not with his help. So,
yeah, we don't wanna be that. SoI wanna I wanna talk about the
notion of lifelong learningbecause, you know, there are
people that are super green,don't know anything. Then there
(10:11):
are people that well, theythey've got deep expertise in a
narrow area, and we we all havethese these silos of of,
information that that we haveaccess to.
Some of us are experts on thisparticular area or that
particular area, and maybe maybeit's not, not even an area that
(10:36):
we would call being an expert.Maybe it's more narrow than
that. But still, if you'rereally good at something, if you
really know how this particularmicroscope works, you can be
very, very helpful to otherpeople. If you learn some tricks
and, to make things operate moresmoothly or more quickly. I
mean, that's what what bite sizebio is all about, is to help
(10:58):
people with techniques.
Right? But, you you know, youjust never know what you know
that somebody else doesn't know.So pardon me. At any given
moment, somebody is as far alongin their learning as they are.
And rather than lamenting that,oh, this person is so green or
(11:21):
they're so they're such anovice, like, well, that's where
they are.
So you start from there. How canyou help somebody from the
position they're in? We don't wedon't necessarily teach from our
own level. We we teach people attheir level. You know, my my
kindergarten teacher was alovely lady, and and thank
(11:44):
goodness she didn't teach at theuniversity level that she was
capable of teaching at when Iwas in kindergarten.
I I needed the kindergartenlevel, and and we all have that,
and we're all in in that in thatsituation even now. I don't care
how much of an expert you are.There are still things that you
don't know, and it's silly notto acknowledge that. And and
(12:09):
when we look at other people,it's silly for us to be
judgmental about it in them.Like, well, if they don't know
something, they don't know it.
So, I mean, if you think back,even though what you were saying
a moment ago, Skye, maybe younever had anybody who who
deserve the title of mentor inyour personal case, but doesn't
(12:29):
mean you didn't learn from otherpeople. There were other
colleagues who were trained andskilled in certain things, and
I'm sure they shared thosethings with you, and and you
picked up on it. And if you, youknow, if as a mentee, if you
bother to listen to people, ifyou bother to be appreciative
when they help you, you'll findyou'll get more and more help
that way.
Skye Marshall (12:49):
Mhmm.
Ken Vogt (12:50):
So, I mean, there's there's two sides to this, being
a mentor and being a mentee.
Skye Marshall (12:54):
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I I definitely feel
like I've managed to glean a lotof tips from a lot of people. I
was I'm thinking I'm that sortof personality that I love it
when someone helps me out andtells me their experience of
something that even if I think Iknow it, I think I've got that
face where I just listen and I'minterested in what they've got
(13:16):
to say.
So, yeah, a lot of people havecome up and helped me.
Ken Vogt (13:19):
Sure. And, you know, if you're if you are also trying
to help others, you're gonnafind some people are like that.
They're super appreciative.There are other people that are
gonna be a little annoyed, butmaybe they're not annoyed at
you. They're just annoyed attheir own present ignorance.
They they wish they knew. Andso, yeah, maybe they act a
(13:39):
little abrasive when you try andhelp them out. Try and give
people a little room, a littlespace to absorb what you're
trying to communicate to them,and learn what other people's
styles are. Some people want thedetails. Some people just want,
you know, give me the bigpicture.
Try and try and give to themwhat they need as as they prefer
(14:01):
to receive it. Now that doesn'tmean that some people shouldn't
do a better job on how theyreceive information, but, again,
the fact is they are the waythey are as of today right now,
and this is the environment youhave to deal with. And if you
start thinking about this, I'mhelping this person as an
investment. That is if they getbetter at this, it makes things
(14:25):
operate more smoothly in thelab. It makes the entire
operation work better.
It helps with your yourcollective goals, and it may
well help you in the future. Youknow, if even if somebody is
working on something and theonly crossover you've got is you
bump into them when you bothwanna use the same piece of
equipment, if they can use itmore quickly and efficiently,
(14:48):
that is good for you. Even ifit's a project you're not on,
because it it gets them out ofyour way later. Right? So it
it's worth doing that.
This also, opens up the notionthat developing your own
communication skills is reallykey. If the sooner they
(15:11):
understand what you're trying tocommunicate, the better off you
are. And as you become a bettercommunicator, that is a life
skill. It benefits you allacross your career, all across
your life. So if if you'rethinking that, I just I don't
wanna have to work at it thathard, yeah, you do.
(15:31):
You really do. It's it's such aworthwhile use of your time. And
when you get better at it, youget better at it. And especially
folks that feel like I'm not agreat communicator. I don't
really like dealing with peoplethat much.
Yeah. Because you're notexperienced enough at it. Get
more experienced at it, and itgets easier. And one day, you
may find yourself saying, youknow, I used to always say I
(15:53):
didn't like people, and I was anintrovert. And then you realize,
you know what?
That not so much. I'm morecomfortable with people now. I
and I'm and I'm happier sharingwith them. It it again, just it
makes everything operate moresmoothly.
Skye Marshall (16:12):
I love that. That was so interesting that I think
communication skills issomething you're going to have
to learn.
Ken Vogt (16:20):
Yeah.
Skye Marshall (16:20):
I was thinking as you were talking about, like,
approaching people at theirlevel, teaching them from the
way with the way they think, Iwas thinking, oh see that's a
good skill where a lot of peoplein academia, they might want to
go into lecturing and they mightwant to add that to their cover
letter or their CV that they'veconsciously tried to to
(16:43):
communicate in these differenttypes of way.
Ken Vogt (16:46):
Yeah. And some writing or, I mean, some communication
may be writing. Maybe you'reputting down protocols or, you
know, reporting things. It's notjust talking, right? Yeah.
Skye Marshall (16:58):
Yeah. So true. Other than the communication
skills, but that applies to anyany other career or life.
Ken Vogt (17:05):
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And and again, you
don't know where you're gonnaend up in your career. I mean,
there was a there was a timeback in the day you you started
working for the company when youget out of high school and then
you retired with the gold watchin 25, 35, 40 years.
Those days are over. Shoot.They're over for my
(17:25):
grandparents. You know? That'show long ago it's been, and I'm
older than most people on whoare listening to this right now.
So we gotta stop thinking thisway that you don't know what
you're gonna end up doing in thefuture. And you you need general
skills, not just your yourspecialized skills.
Skye Marshall (17:45):
Mhmm. And to be aware that that's what you are
developing.
Ken Vogt (17:49):
Right. Yeah. Do it mindfully. Don't don't just
accidentally become a bettercommunicator. Do it on purpose.
And, you know, because you'regonna get there faster if you do
it on purpose.
Skye Marshall (17:59):
Oh, so true.
Ken Vogt (18:02):
So I I I wanted to have this slide especially
because we can listen to thisall and go, okay. This is how to
do it, but why do it? I don'twant to. I don't wanna have to
be somebody's mentor. You Youknow, I don't wanna have to do
all this stuff.
Well, this is about leadership,and leadership is another skill
that you wanna develop for thesake of your own career. And
(18:27):
it's it's like a muscle. It hasto be worked hard. And, yeah, it
can it can be it can be painfulwhen you're doing it. You can be
sore afterward, but that's howit is.
And there's no sense denyingthat. Now if you just wanna be a
worker bee that keeps your headdown and just does the same road
(18:48):
tasks over and over again, youknow, there are places for folks
that that's how they wanna dothis. But at some point, you
might wanna do something moreinteresting. At some point, you
want might wanna make moremoney. At some point, you might
wanna exercise your brain more.
So don't cut yourself off fromthose possibilities. At the end
(19:11):
of the day, if if you wanna bejust doing the same heads down
work and you're comfortable withthat, that's fine. But test it
out. Make sure that there isn'tsomething else that you might
not wanna do. So, another thingto think about is is how you go
(19:32):
about this.
How do I mentor people? Well,some people need hands on help,
and, you know, maybe they'remore kinesthetic in their in
their learning style, and theyneed help in that way. Other
people need to hear it. Otherneed to peep need to read it.
Other people need to do it withother people.
(19:53):
That everybody's got their ownstyle, And, you know, you could
you can have your preferencestoo. Like, I prefer to write
things down, for instance, or Iprefer to to make short videos
for the something. Alright? Youknow? Or I prefer to just talk
to somebody.
Your preferences are fine, butmake sure you match up with what
(20:15):
their preferences are too. Andif you can have a, a bigger
toolbox, it's it's only good foryou. And, again, it it it aids
the rest of your career, therest of your life to have more
possibilities of how you can howyou can help someone. Another
thing that comes up in this, andyou mentioned earlier, Skye, is
(20:38):
that I'm sure you are busy. Andyou may be thinking, I okay.
I I get it. I see the value, butwhen am I supposed to do this?
How do I how do I have the time?It's like, well, you have the
time by making the time. Youhave to take that time to to
help people when they need it.
(20:59):
Because often, they're needinghelp not at a convenient time
for you. Right? But that's whenthey need it. Now it doesn't
mean you drop everything foreverybody and you let be a
doormat and be walked on anytimesomebody wants something out of
you. But if you can develop thereputation for being somebody
that will bend over backwards tohelp, that, again, that can go a
(21:22):
long way for you.
And don't you don't wannadevelop the the reputation of
being a doormat. Well, I cantake advantage of them anytime I
want. It's not like that. Butwhen when someone realizes that
you're that you're going out ofyour way for them, they realize
they they start to realize,socially speaking, they they owe
you one. You know?
They know they know that you youdid something for them at a at
(21:45):
an inconvenient moment for you.Well, guess what? Turnabout is
fair play. You know? And it itgives you the opportunity to
have, to have favors to call inas it were.
I don't I don't mean that in a,controlling way, but in, yeah,
it's just good to know that Ithat you have a stable of people
that you could call on when youneed when you need support or
(22:07):
help for whatever. Mhmm. Oh,definitely. Yeah.
Skye Marshall (22:10):
Yeah. I was, I think this actually segues quite
well into a question somebodyhas asked. Please. So I was what
you were saying about peoplebeing there to help you at the
time they need it, that is greatfor when you're in the same lab
and you're maybe, colleaguesbasically that are there
(22:33):
together. And that's why Iimagine this situation is maybe
someone's sort of coaching acolleague, but somebody's asked
what's the difference betweenmentoring and coaching a
colleague in the lab?
Like, is is it sort of helpingout when someone has a technical
problem, or can it be more, Iguess?
Ken Vogt (22:55):
Yeah. I to my mind, coaching and mentoring are are
different things. A mentor issomebody who is sharing their
experience. They've been there,done that. Right?
And maybe they know someshortcuts, maybe they they know
the the cleanest way to getsomewhere. A coach is something
(23:16):
different. A coach is looking infrom the outside. It's being
another set of eyes onsomething. So you could think
about it this way.
Serena Williams, you know,famous expert tennis player,
possibly the best female playeron the planet, has a coach. Her
(23:39):
coach is a good tennis player.Her coach cannot beat her at
tennis, but she doesn't need tobe able to beat her at tennis to
be her coach. So sometimesyou're in a situation where
somebody is just saying, I justneed a sanity check. Could you
could you check over this paperbefore I submit it just just to
make sure I didn't misssomething?
(24:00):
And you can do that. And you maynot, maybe you couldn't have
wrote that paper, but you cansee if there's something missing
or something is flawed or orsomething is out of context or
needs context. So that's how Iwould describe the difference
between a coach and a mentor.And in any given moment, you may
(24:20):
be qualified to be a mentor forsomething, or or you might more
appropriately be a coach in thatsetting. So, you know, do what
is appropriate for, you know,what what you're capable of and
and what the person needs.
Skye Marshall (24:35):
So a mentor would be someone who's probably, for
example, already done a PhD ormaybe just someone who's already
used that instrument.
Ken Vogt (24:45):
Exactly. Exactly. So yeah. And and I think those are
2 really good examples. One ofthem is very big and broad, and
the other is very specific.
So you could be mentored bysomebody who does not have a
PhD, but they know how to usethe machine.
Skye Marshall (25:03):
Okay. Yeah, I think that's a good
differentiation. I'm wonderingas well, does it go further into
like probably both a mentor anda coach could do this, but
presenting soft skills to them,you know, saying, by the way,
watch out, you don't get burntout because that's a common
thing that happens to PhDstudents, something like that,
instead of just saying, yeah,how to use the instrument.
Ken Vogt (25:27):
Sure. Well, I mean, you can imagine a setting where
you see somebody who's gettingstressed and you can tell, and
and you've been stressed in thepast yourself. Maybe you can
say, hey. Here's what I did whenI got stressed that way. But
maybe you can see their theirstress is is different than
yours was.
The only thing you that youreally have share there is they
(25:49):
were both feeling, you know,overworked or or out of your
element, then then it's moreappropriate to be in a kind of a
coaching setting. And so you ina coaching situation, you're
more asking questions ratherthan offering, you know,
specific solutions, whereas amentor is able to offer
solutions because they know thesolutions.
Skye Marshall (26:11):
Mhmm. Okay. Okay. And it's probably, a lot of
people are able to switch switchbetween the 2.
Ken Vogt (26:18):
Sure. Yeah. And and don't cut yourself off from
accepting mentorship or coachingfrom somebody who might you
might think is is your inferior,and they might be. But, you
know, sometimes the janitor inthe lab knows stuff.
Skye Marshall (26:35):
Yeah. That I mean, sometimes, as you were
saying earlier, sometimes peoplehave done 2 PhDs. It might be
their second time around.
Ken Vogt (26:42):
Yeah. And sometimes you just may not realize their
experience. Maybe they maybethey've been they're quiet.
Maybe they don't speak up allthe time. But when they do,
maybe you should be listeningbecause they know what they're
talking about.
This can this goes into onelittle point I wanted to make
too. This is part ofcollaboration. Collaboration
isn't always a formalarrangement where this person is
(27:05):
assigned as my mentor, you know,or, you know, or this is the
person I go to for coaching allthe time. In the moment, you you
find out what's working. Andwe're all on we all get on
projects and we start to realizethis project is it's got a lot
of moving parts.
We need somebody to pick up thispart, and maybe you can be that
(27:28):
person or maybe somebody elseshould be that person or maybe
you can help the person thatdoes do it. Again, collaboration
then provides you theopportunity to support others
and to receive support. But ifyou're not collaborative
yourself, if if you don't fostera collaborative environment, the
(27:50):
opportunities for support getget restricted more and more
until people are working theirown little silos and and not
working together. And for sure,you're not gonna get as much
done. You're not gonna you'renot gonna be as innovative.
You're certainly not gonna makediscoveries if all you ever do
is cut yourself off from fromyour fellow lab members. Mhmm.
Skye Marshall (28:15):
So it's a bit like like you said earlier, make
time to be a mentor. I mean, youcould even just make time to be
collaborative and
Ken Vogt (28:24):
Right.
Skye Marshall (28:25):
From that, like mentoring chances could arise,
but either way, it's a good ideato make time to be
collaborative.
Ken Vogt (28:34):
And you may tell yourself, well, I can't make
time. I just I don't have timeto make.
Skye Marshall (28:37):
That's not hard.
Ken Vogt (28:39):
But that is I'm on this. Here's a challenging
thought. That is just a belief.If you believe you can make
time, you will be able to maketime. And if you start thinking
about your own experience inlife, you've you will certainly
find examples where that wastrue.
Sometimes it's like, well, Ihave to make time. You know?
It's it's life and death maybewhether literally or not. When
(29:03):
things are life or death, wefind a way. We make time, or
we're not here we're not herefor the next time.
Right? No. You're not you're notalive. You're not gonna be on
that job anymore. You know?
You figure it out. So sometimeswe have to test out test out the
limits that we believe are inplace. Maybe they're not really
there.
Skye Marshall (29:26):
Yeah. Yeah. And maybe just starting small. You
know, it doesn't have to be nowyou've become someone who is
always around for other people.
Ken Vogt (29:35):
Right. Right. Well yeah. And sometimes that you
can't always be around for otherpeople. You have things you have
to do for you too.
You you can do things foryourself, you can do things for
others, and some people thinkthat that's the either or. It's
not true. You you can do thingsfor others and yourself. If if
(29:56):
you develop a protocol that'suseful and you record it and now
other people can use that, butyou benefited too because you
figured out the protocol. It'sand and now there's a protocol
available to you.
Whether you did it or somebodyelse did isn't isn't really
important at that moment. Thefact is it's still available to
you. It did just because otherscan use it doesn't mean you
(30:17):
can't.
Skye Marshall (30:19):
Yeah. Exactly. And it could just be I I don't
know if you'd feel the pressure.If other people are gonna use
this protocol, I better make itperfect, but actually it can
make a huge difference just tohave somebody else's rough draft
of a protocol. Maybe they'vealready left the lab.
They're just looking for anysort of guidance and if you
leave behind that, that sort ofpaper trail that could be really
(30:42):
helpful for them and not,hopefully not too much extra
time for yourself.
Ken Vogt (30:49):
Exactly.
Skye Marshall (30:49):
There's another question that's come through.
Ken Vogt (30:51):
Oh, please.
Skye Marshall (30:52):
Just to, interject. If, this person's
asked, what if a person does notwant to be helped?
Ken Vogt (31:04):
Yeah. I mean, there's lots of reasons why somebody
might not wanna be helped, thatwill have nothing to do with you
or even with the work. You know,for if if they've if they feel
like if I accept help, then Ilook weak, then I look I look
unqualified. Yeah. That could bereally hard for them.
(31:24):
So the first thing you can do ina setting like that, if you if
you still believe that mentoringthem is worth doing, the first
thing you can do is just tosoften up your approach, and and
just just pull back a littlebit. Maybe just ask questions.
(31:45):
You don't have to give themanswers. Just ask the question
so they will seek the answer.Maybe they'll figure it out the
answer for themselves, but ormaybe they'll go, you know what?
Why don't you just tell me? Youknow? And, yes, you know,
sometimes that kind ofinteraction could feel a little
abrasive. But if we can thickenup our skin a little bit, we may
(32:06):
find that, you know what,they're they're not they're not
fighting against me. They'refighting against something else
that that's inside them that hasnothing to do with me, and that
makes it easier.
Now there will be times whensome people, like, they don't
wanna be helped, that they'renot open to being helped. We'll
accept that truth that thisperson doesn't they don't want
(32:26):
to be helped. Now you may lookat in the broad the the bigger
picture and go, that's aproblem. Yeah. But is it your
problem to solve?
It may be may be at that point,it's something that should be
shared up the chain. Let letmanagement deal with that. If
they if they've assigned you tohelp somebody and they're
(32:48):
resisting, you by all means, youshould you should be talking to
your boss about that. Look.Look.
I I'm open to doing this. I'mopen to helping them, but
they're not open to receiving.You gotta help me out here. And
if you can do that withoutjudgment, you know, like,
they're look at them. They'rearrogant.
They're, you know, they're allthis and that. Like, doesn't
matter. We're gonna deal witharrogant people. Boy, in smart
(33:12):
people, especially, there are alot of smart people that are
arrogant. Get over it.
Yeah. That's how it is. And itdoesn't mean they won't receive.
It you you just have to maybe bea little more skilled. And to
get more skilled, you have tohave these experiences of,
trying to do things when you'reunskilled.
(33:32):
Mhmm. You may find as you getbetter at at the the broad job
of mentorship that people aremore receptive. It's it's
amazing that people got morereceptive. Yeah. Because you
were easier to receive.
You know? So take some personalresponsibility for that too and,
you know, set the judgmentaside. It's it's not worth it.
Skye Marshall (33:53):
Right. It all comes back to actually, it's an
opportunity for your own growthand Yeah. That you should
embrace it. And there is,conscious decisions you can do
to to help it work for everyone.
Ken Vogt (34:10):
Definitely.
Skye Marshall (34:10):
Yeah. I wish I had that, sort of perspective.
You know?
Ken Vogt (34:14):
Well, you can't say I wish I had it. You could say I I
I wish I wish I had it in thepast maybe, but there's nothing
stopping you from having itright now for you can start
anew. So this this does thisquestion and your comments also
lead to my final point. I thinkthere's there's 3 different
(34:37):
motifs that can be applied tomentoring. The first is
teaching.
That is you're just conveyinginformation. Right? The second
is shepherding. That is you'rehelping them to to assimilate
information and to guide themtoward seeking the right
information so that they'reactually looking for it instead
(34:58):
of just, you know, unwillinglyreceiving it. And the 3rd level,
I will call it mirroring.
And when you're mirroringsomeone, you're just reflecting
back to them what they're being.And you're and, again, you can
only do mirroring withoutjudgment. You you gotta be free
of judgment. You just can't getthere. But it is amazing what
(35:21):
people can learn when theyreally see themselves and see
what they do.
Do you realize what you're doinghere right now? Do you do you
see why you're having thisproblem? And by the way, you
know, other people are nothaving this problem when they
are are using this procedure. Doyou see what happened? Did you
see why, you know, I mean,there's examples of things like
(35:43):
why why cleanliness reallymattered in this particular
setting?
Why you really had to havethings clean and clear? Why you
should be using this instrumentrather than that instrument or
this or this kit rather thanthat kit. That that is the most
effective kind of of mentoringthat you can you can have. But
(36:08):
wherever the level you're at inany situation, you know, any any
of those modes are useful. It'sjust they can get progressively
more useful, and people willseek you out.
When people seek you out as amentor, your reputation goes up,
and reputation is very importantin the field of science, in your
individual lab. If you have areputation of somebody who knows
(36:31):
what they're doing, who getsthings done, who's got insight,
that's who's got creativity,that that is steroids for your
career. So it's all good foryou. So if you're thinking, I
don't wanna have to guide thesesheep. You know what?
Do it anyway. It's worth it. Andat at some point, you may
(36:53):
recognize, you know, actually,this this is a more fun part of
of my job than I ever realizedit would be. You might not even
thought there was such a aposition before, but now that
you know about it, you know, getout there and and be the best
mentor you can be.
Skye Marshall (37:12):
Yeah. I was thinking that of my experience
of, times where I've beenmentored, I just wonder if they
understand the actual differencethey made to me and how I'll be
forever appreciative. I'llalways remember. And I don't
know if I'm ever in a situationwhere I could be of help to
(37:33):
these people, I would I wouldjump at it.
Ken Vogt (37:36):
Exactly. Exactly. Alright. Well, that's that's
everything I had to say today.Is there anything else you
wanted to add, Skye?
Skye Marshall (37:44):
Okay. No. I don't think so. That was great.
Ken Vogt (37:47):
Well, thank you so much for, for cohosting with me
today. It's always it's it'salways great to to get input
from from a new voice andsomebody who's got a different
different, perspective onthings.
Skye Marshall (37:59):
Alright. Well, yeah. Thank you for putting
everything into words, all theseperspective and thoughts that
takes years actually to figureout sometimes.
Ken Vogt (38:10):
Sometimes.
Skye Marshall (38:11):
Yeah. Excellent. So we've reached the end of our
time today. Thank you for yourinsights Ken and thank you to
the audience for listening in,for contributing questions, and
for listening live or on demand.So if you enjoyed this content,
(38:35):
please subscribe to The HappyScientists on your favorite
podcast platform or YouTube.
Listen back to our earlierepisodes, which are packed with
equally useful wisdom. And ofcourse tell your colleagues so
we can help spread the happyscientists. Also look out for
more live happy scientistsepisodes in the coming months.
You can find them listed onevents.bitesizebio.com And then
(39:02):
until then, good luck with yourresearch, and goodbye from all
of us at Bite Size Bio.
Ken Vogt (39:08):
Bye.
VX (39:14):
The Happy Scientist is brought to you by Bite Size Bio,
your mentor in the lab. BiteSize Bio features thousands of
articles and webinarscontributed by hundreds of PhD
scientists and scientificcompanies who freely offer their
hard won wisdom and solutions tothe bite sized bio community.
This is the Happy Scientist podcast. Each episode is
designed to make you morefocused, more productive, and
more satisfied in the lab. Youcan find us online at
bitesizebio.com/happyscientist.Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt,
founder of the executivecoaching firm, Vera Claritas,
and doctor Nick Oswald, PhD,bioscientist, and founder of
(00:53):
Bite Size
Bio.
Skye Marshall (00:59):
Hello. This is Sky Marshall, a content creator
at BiteSize Bio, welcoming youto this BiteSize Bio webinar,
which today is a live episode ofthe Happy Scientist podcast. If
you want to become a happier,healthier, and more productive
scientist, you're in the rightplace. With me is Bite Size
Bio's vister Kenneth Vogt. Inthese sessions we hear from Ken
(01:23):
mostly on principles that willhelp shape you for a happier and
more successful career and alongthe way I am going to try and
pitch in with points from mypersonal experience as a
scientist.
If you have any questions alongthe way, put them into the
questions box on the side ofyour screen, and I'll put them
to Ken. So today, we will bediscussing why be a mentor to
(01:48):
other scientists. So over toyou, Ken.
Ken Vogt (01:52):
Alright. Hey, Skye. It's, good to have you on the
Happy Scientist. You know,folks, normally, my cohost is
doctor Nick Oswald, as you know.Occasionally, it has been doctor
Tom Warwick, but today, it'sdoctor Sky Marshall.
So lucky me, I'm surrounded byPhDs. So
Skye Marshall (02:13):
Lucky me, I get to debut on the podcast while
Nick
Ken Vogt (02:16):
is away. Well, there we go. So this is an important
question. Why be a mentor toother scientists? You know, why
should you bother?
Don't you have enough going on?Haven't you got enough on your
plate to not have to go throughthis extra effort? Well, I I
(02:37):
will happily acknowledge that,of course, you have a lot on
your plate. But the science isis a big area, and it's a very
collaborative area, and it needspeople who are working together.
And, hopefully, you're gonna beone of those people.
So I will start off with talkingabout the environment that that
(02:58):
you find yourself in. And and itmay feel like sometimes you look
around and go, who are theselittle snot nose kids in my lab?
You know? But, you know,remember, yeah, they they may be
young or younger than you, yetthey're highly educated. Many
cases are also PhDs or at least,you know, they're they're post
(03:20):
you know, they're or they'repostdocs or they're working in
their PhDs or or at whateverlevel they're at.
But if they're in a lab doingthis kind of work, chances are
they're pretty smart people. Noware they the are they as
brilliant as you? Well, maybemaybe some of them aren't, but
the the fact is the bar is stillpretty high. And and yet you
(03:42):
gotta remember that there's abunch of things that you know
now that are second nature. Youdon't think about it very much.
But you didn't you didn't startoff knowing that stuff. You
weren't born knowing thesethings. You may have had a
natural affinity for the kind ofscience that you prefer or that
you pursue, but that affinity isnot the same as experience.
(04:04):
Everybody starts off that way.So rather than lamenting the
fact that other people are lessexperienced than you, don't have
the the insights that you haveworked hard to cultivate
already, isn't it better just tolook at what is the environment
I'm actually in?
What is it? What is really goingon here? And what do the people
(04:28):
in my lab need to know? Now itmay be that you're looking at
this from the standpoint ofjust, you know, I'm I'm just one
of of several or even manyscientists working in this lab
on various things. You may feellike, well, I'm not I'm not the
PI.
It's not my job. I'm why why I'mwhy do I have to worry about
(04:51):
this? Set those why questionsaway for for now. But right now,
let's just see how it actuallyis. Do people know what they
need to know?
Do they know where to go whenthey don't know? And can you
take some at least someresponsibility for helping
(05:11):
people get up to speed even ifeven if it's not your primary
responsibility, can you besomebody that says, well, when
you encounter this, hey. Checkhere. The here's we've got a
protocol for that. You can youcan find that here, or here's
here's where to find the rightequipment to do the things that
(05:32):
that you're tasked to do.
I mean, just just being a goodbro as it were. You know, just
being being someone who'shelpful to others is quite
useful, and and it will makeyour your environment easier. If
you're surrounded by frustratedand and, you know, people are
(05:55):
not successfully completingtheir tasks, it's a bad
environment for you. So it'sit's absolutely in your personal
interest to have everybody as upto speed as they can be. Now
maybe you can't take them allthe way through what they need
to do.
Some of that may be on them.They need to step up, and they
need to learn and that kind ofthing. But if you can do some
(06:18):
part in that, you make your lifeeasier too. On top of that, you
are making their lives easier,and that may well bring you
benefits in the future. If youhave a reputation of being
somebody that that can becounted on to help, who who's
got a collaborative nature tothem, you you don't know how
(06:40):
that's gonna play out in thefuture.
And we don't know where thesepeople are gonna or they're
gonna go in their careerseither. You you may end up
working for one of these peoplein the future, and all that may
sound a little disconcerting,but it's not necessarily so bad.
If if you find a you know,somebody who's young and new in
this space, and they're reallyexcelling, and they're showing
(07:00):
themselves to be creative andinventive and and smart and open
to learning, those are goodpeople to work with. They're
good people to work for. So, youknow, even if you don't have the
aspiration of being in charge ofall these people for the rest of
their careers, Understand thatit's a, yeah, it's a river we're
(07:25):
all jumping in.
You just never know whichmolecule water molecules are
gonna end up where. So take takethat environment into account.
So is that did I did I hearsomething you wanted to
interject there, Skye, or am Ijust hearing things? Oh, I
Skye Marshall (07:40):
was just laughing that it was a river we're all
jumping in.
Ken Vogt (07:43):
Yes. So I presume you have worked in the lab in the
past.
Skye Marshall (07:50):
I have. I've worked in several labs. I've had
a bit of a funny squiggly,academic career where I did 2
masters actually, and then a PhDthat was between a few labs. So
one aspect of that is I feellike I never really had a mentor
(08:10):
so to speak because I wasalways, you know, leaving the
lab to go to another lab butI've definitely had lots of
people that helped me along theway and then yeah, and the other
way I was thinking, have Imentored anyone myself? But not
in a practical, long term sense,but hopefully I can be helpful.
(08:31):
I love that you started withacknowledging how busy people
already are because myexperience has just been people
rushing around. You can nevercatch people. You yourself are
really busy. It can be quite astressful atmosphere. But, yeah,
like you said, it's it's betterto be collaborative because it
then it just makes yourenvironment better.
(08:51):
So if you are stressed, I mean,hope hopefully would help you
make your own environment betterand would address that fact,
Ken Vogt (09:00):
that Right.
Skye Marshall (09:01):
Negative part of your experience.
Ken Vogt (09:04):
And you and if you're having that experience, chances
are the people around you aretoo. Yeah. And everybody's not
on their own yeah. They're ontheir own trajectory. Maybe
they're having the exact kind ofexperience you are.
Maybe they've had it in thepast. Maybe they haven't had it
yet, but they're gonna. Yeah.So, yeah, the science is
especially requirescollaboration. It's it's there
(09:29):
aren't really many NikolaTesla's anymore who just work by
themselves.
But, you know, I mean, Tesla'san interesting example of
someone who came up with allthis brilliant stuff, and yet
we're still trying to unpack itin many cases because he he
didn't collaborate very wellwith others. And and it may well
be that some of the things helearned will be lost forever, so
(09:51):
or won't be found again, atleast not with his help. So,
yeah, we don't wanna be that. SoI wanna I wanna talk about the
notion of lifelong learningbecause, you know, there are
people that are super green,don't know anything. Then there
(10:11):
are people that well, theythey've got deep expertise in a
narrow area, and we we all havethese these silos of of,
information that that we haveaccess to.
Some of us are experts on thisparticular area or that
particular area, and maybe maybeit's not, not even an area that
(10:36):
we would call being an expert.Maybe it's more narrow than
that. But still, if you'rereally good at something, if you
really know how this particularmicroscope works, you can be
very, very helpful to otherpeople. If you learn some tricks
and, to make things operate moresmoothly or more quickly. I
mean, that's what what bite sizebio is all about, is to help
(10:58):
people with techniques.
Right? But, you you know, youjust never know what you know
that somebody else doesn't know.So pardon me. At any given
moment, somebody is as far alongin their learning as they are.
And rather than lamenting that,oh, this person is so green or
(11:21):
they're so they're such anovice, like, well, that's where
they are.
So you start from there. How canyou help somebody from the
position they're in? We don't wedon't necessarily teach from our
own level. We we teach people attheir level. You know, my my
kindergarten teacher was alovely lady, and and thank
(11:44):
goodness she didn't teach at theuniversity level that she was
capable of teaching at when Iwas in kindergarten.
I I needed the kindergartenlevel, and and we all have that,
and we're all in in that in thatsituation even now. I don't care
how much of an expert you are.There are still things that you
don't know, and it's silly notto acknowledge that. And and
(12:09):
when we look at other people,it's silly for us to be
judgmental about it in them.Like, well, if they don't know
something, they don't know it.
So, I mean, if you think back,even though what you were saying
a moment ago, Skye, maybe younever had anybody who who
deserve the title of mentor inyour personal case, but doesn't
(12:29):
mean you didn't learn from otherpeople. There were other
colleagues who were trained andskilled in certain things, and
I'm sure they shared thosethings with you, and and you
picked up on it. And if you, youknow, if as a mentee, if you
bother to listen to people, ifyou bother to be appreciative
when they help you, you'll findyou'll get more and more help
that way.
Skye Marshall (12:49):
Mhmm.
Ken Vogt (12:50):
So, I mean, there's there's two sides to this, being
a mentor and being a mentee.
Skye Marshall (12:54):
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I I definitely feel
like I've managed to glean a lotof tips from a lot of people. I
was I'm thinking I'm that sortof personality that I love it
when someone helps me out andtells me their experience of
something that even if I think Iknow it, I think I've got that
face where I just listen and I'minterested in what they've got
(13:16):
to say.
So, yeah, a lot of people havecome up and helped me.
Ken Vogt (13:19):
Sure. And, you know, if you're if you are also trying
to help others, you're gonnafind some people are like that.
They're super appreciative.There are other people that are
gonna be a little annoyed, butmaybe they're not annoyed at
you. They're just annoyed attheir own present ignorance.
They they wish they knew. Andso, yeah, maybe they act a
(13:39):
little abrasive when you try andhelp them out. Try and give
people a little room, a littlespace to absorb what you're
trying to communicate to them,and learn what other people's
styles are. Some people want thedetails. Some people just want,
you know, give me the bigpicture.
Try and try and give to themwhat they need as as they prefer
(14:01):
to receive it. Now that doesn'tmean that some people shouldn't
do a better job on how theyreceive information, but, again,
the fact is they are the waythey are as of today right now,
and this is the environment youhave to deal with. And if you
start thinking about this, I'mhelping this person as an
investment. That is if they getbetter at this, it makes things
(14:25):
operate more smoothly in thelab. It makes the entire
operation work better.
It helps with your yourcollective goals, and it may
well help you in the future. Youknow, if even if somebody is
working on something and theonly crossover you've got is you
bump into them when you bothwanna use the same piece of
equipment, if they can use itmore quickly and efficiently,
(14:48):
that is good for you. Even ifit's a project you're not on,
because it it gets them out ofyour way later. Right? So it
it's worth doing that.
This also, opens up the notionthat developing your own
communication skills is reallykey. If the sooner they
(15:11):
understand what you're trying tocommunicate, the better off you
are. And as you become a bettercommunicator, that is a life
skill. It benefits you allacross your career, all across
your life. So if if you'rethinking that, I just I don't
wanna have to work at it thathard, yeah, you do.
(15:31):
You really do. It's it's such aworthwhile use of your time. And
when you get better at it, youget better at it. And especially
folks that feel like I'm not agreat communicator. I don't
really like dealing with peoplethat much.
Yeah. Because you're notexperienced enough at it. Get
more experienced at it, and itgets easier. And one day, you
may find yourself saying, youknow, I used to always say I
(15:53):
didn't like people, and I was anintrovert. And then you realize,
you know what?
That not so much. I'm morecomfortable with people now. I
and I'm and I'm happier sharingwith them. It it again, just it
makes everything operate moresmoothly.
Skye Marshall (16:12):
I love that. That was so interesting that I think
communication skills issomething you're going to have
to learn.
Ken Vogt (16:20):
Yeah.
Skye Marshall (16:20):
I was thinking as you were talking about, like,
approaching people at theirlevel, teaching them from the
way with the way they think, Iwas thinking, oh see that's a
good skill where a lot of peoplein academia, they might want to
go into lecturing and they mightwant to add that to their cover
letter or their CV that they'veconsciously tried to to
(16:43):
communicate in these differenttypes of way.
Ken Vogt (16:46):
Yeah. And some writing or, I mean, some communication
may be writing. Maybe you'reputting down protocols or, you
know, reporting things. It's notjust talking, right? Yeah.
Skye Marshall (16:58):
Yeah. So true. Other than the communication
skills, but that applies to anyany other career or life.
Ken Vogt (17:05):
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And and again, you
don't know where you're gonnaend up in your career. I mean,
there was a there was a timeback in the day you you started
working for the company when youget out of high school and then
you retired with the gold watchin 25, 35, 40 years.
Those days are over. Shoot.They're over for my
(17:25):
grandparents. You know? That'show long ago it's been, and I'm
older than most people on whoare listening to this right now.
So we gotta stop thinking thisway that you don't know what
you're gonna end up doing in thefuture. And you you need general
skills, not just your yourspecialized skills.
Skye Marshall (17:45):
Mhmm. And to be aware that that's what you are
developing.
Ken Vogt (17:49):
Right. Yeah. Do it mindfully. Don't don't just
accidentally become a bettercommunicator. Do it on purpose.
And, you know, because you'regonna get there faster if you do
it on purpose.
Skye Marshall (17:59):
Oh, so true.
Ken Vogt (18:02):
So I I I wanted to have this slide especially
because we can listen to thisall and go, okay. This is how to
do it, but why do it? I don'twant to. I don't wanna have to
be somebody's mentor. You Youknow, I don't wanna have to do
all this stuff.
Well, this is about leadership,and leadership is another skill
that you wanna develop for thesake of your own career. And
(18:27):
it's it's like a muscle. It hasto be worked hard. And, yeah, it
can it can be it can be painfulwhen you're doing it. You can be
sore afterward, but that's howit is.
And there's no sense denyingthat. Now if you just wanna be a
worker bee that keeps your headdown and just does the same road
(18:48):
tasks over and over again, youknow, there are places for folks
that that's how they wanna dothis. But at some point, you
might wanna do something moreinteresting. At some point, you
want might wanna make moremoney. At some point, you might
wanna exercise your brain more.
So don't cut yourself off fromthose possibilities. At the end
(19:11):
of the day, if if you wanna bejust doing the same heads down
work and you're comfortable withthat, that's fine. But test it
out. Make sure that there isn'tsomething else that you might
not wanna do. So, another thingto think about is is how you go
(19:32):
about this.
How do I mentor people? Well,some people need hands on help,
and, you know, maybe they'remore kinesthetic in their in
their learning style, and theyneed help in that way. Other
people need to hear it. Otherneed to peep need to read it.
Other people need to do it withother people.
(19:53):
That everybody's got their ownstyle, And, you know, you could
you can have your preferencestoo. Like, I prefer to write
things down, for instance, or Iprefer to to make short videos
for the something. Alright? Youknow? Or I prefer to just talk
to somebody.
Your preferences are fine, butmake sure you match up with what
(20:15):
their preferences are too. Andif you can have a, a bigger
toolbox, it's it's only good foryou. And, again, it it it aids
the rest of your career, therest of your life to have more
possibilities of how you can howyou can help someone. Another
thing that comes up in this, andyou mentioned earlier, Skye, is
(20:38):
that I'm sure you are busy. Andyou may be thinking, I okay.
I I get it. I see the value, butwhen am I supposed to do this?
How do I how do I have the time?It's like, well, you have the
time by making the time. Youhave to take that time to to
help people when they need it.
(20:59):
Because often, they're needinghelp not at a convenient time
for you. Right? But that's whenthey need it. Now it doesn't
mean you drop everything foreverybody and you let be a
doormat and be walked on anytimesomebody wants something out of
you. But if you can develop thereputation for being somebody
that will bend over backwards tohelp, that, again, that can go a
(21:22):
long way for you.
And don't you don't wannadevelop the the reputation of
being a doormat. Well, I cantake advantage of them anytime I
want. It's not like that. Butwhen when someone realizes that
you're that you're going out ofyour way for them, they realize
they they start to realize,socially speaking, they they owe
you one. You know?
They know they know that you youdid something for them at a at
(21:45):
an inconvenient moment for you.Well, guess what? Turnabout is
fair play. You know? And it itgives you the opportunity to
have, to have favors to call inas it were.
I don't I don't mean that in a,controlling way, but in, yeah,
it's just good to know that Ithat you have a stable of people
that you could call on when youneed when you need support or
(22:07):
help for whatever. Mhmm. Oh,definitely. Yeah.
Skye Marshall (22:10):
Yeah. I was, I think this actually segues quite
well into a question somebodyhas asked. Please. So I was what
you were saying about peoplebeing there to help you at the
time they need it, that is greatfor when you're in the same lab
and you're maybe, colleaguesbasically that are there
(22:33):
together. And that's why Iimagine this situation is maybe
someone's sort of coaching acolleague, but somebody's asked
what's the difference betweenmentoring and coaching a
colleague in the lab?
Like, is is it sort of helpingout when someone has a technical
problem, or can it be more, Iguess?
Ken Vogt (22:55):
Yeah. I to my mind, coaching and mentoring are are
different things. A mentor issomebody who is sharing their
experience. They've been there,done that. Right?
And maybe they know someshortcuts, maybe they they know
the the cleanest way to getsomewhere. A coach is something
(23:16):
different. A coach is looking infrom the outside. It's being
another set of eyes onsomething. So you could think
about it this way.
Serena Williams, you know,famous expert tennis player,
possibly the best female playeron the planet, has a coach. Her
(23:39):
coach is a good tennis player.Her coach cannot beat her at
tennis, but she doesn't need tobe able to beat her at tennis to
be her coach. So sometimesyou're in a situation where
somebody is just saying, I justneed a sanity check. Could you
could you check over this paperbefore I submit it just just to
make sure I didn't misssomething?
(24:00):
And you can do that. And you maynot, maybe you couldn't have
wrote that paper, but you cansee if there's something missing
or something is flawed or orsomething is out of context or
needs context. So that's how Iwould describe the difference
between a coach and a mentor.And in any given moment, you may
(24:20):
be qualified to be a mentor forsomething, or or you might more
appropriately be a coach in thatsetting. So, you know, do what
is appropriate for, you know,what what you're capable of and
and what the person needs.
Skye Marshall (24:35):
So a mentor would be someone who's probably, for
example, already done a PhD ormaybe just someone who's already
used that instrument.
Ken Vogt (24:45):
Exactly. Exactly. So yeah. And and I think those are
2 really good examples. One ofthem is very big and broad, and
the other is very specific.
So you could be mentored bysomebody who does not have a
PhD, but they know how to usethe machine.
Skye Marshall (25:03):
Okay. Yeah, I think that's a good
differentiation. I'm wonderingas well, does it go further into
like probably both a mentor anda coach could do this, but
presenting soft skills to them,you know, saying, by the way,
watch out, you don't get burntout because that's a common
thing that happens to PhDstudents, something like that,
instead of just saying, yeah,how to use the instrument.
Ken Vogt (25:27):
Sure. Well, I mean, you can imagine a setting where
you see somebody who's gettingstressed and you can tell, and
and you've been stressed in thepast yourself. Maybe you can
say, hey. Here's what I did whenI got stressed that way. But
maybe you can see their theirstress is is different than
yours was.
The only thing you that youreally have share there is they
(25:49):
were both feeling, you know,overworked or or out of your
element, then then it's moreappropriate to be in a kind of a
coaching setting. And so you ina coaching situation, you're
more asking questions ratherthan offering, you know,
specific solutions, whereas amentor is able to offer
solutions because they know thesolutions.
Skye Marshall (26:11):
Mhmm. Okay. Okay. And it's probably, a lot of
people are able to switch switchbetween the 2.
Ken Vogt (26:18):
Sure. Yeah. And and don't cut yourself off from
accepting mentorship or coachingfrom somebody who might you
might think is is your inferior,and they might be. But, you
know, sometimes the janitor inthe lab knows stuff.
Skye Marshall (26:35):
Yeah. That I mean, sometimes, as you were
saying earlier, sometimes peoplehave done 2 PhDs. It might be
their second time around.
Ken Vogt (26:42):
Yeah. And sometimes you just may not realize their
experience. Maybe they maybethey've been they're quiet.
Maybe they don't speak up allthe time. But when they do,
maybe you should be listeningbecause they know what they're
talking about.
This can this goes into onelittle point I wanted to make
too. This is part ofcollaboration. Collaboration
isn't always a formalarrangement where this person is
(27:05):
assigned as my mentor, you know,or, you know, or this is the
person I go to for coaching allthe time. In the moment, you you
find out what's working. Andwe're all on we all get on
projects and we start to realizethis project is it's got a lot
of moving parts.
We need somebody to pick up thispart, and maybe you can be that
(27:28):
person or maybe somebody elseshould be that person or maybe
you can help the person thatdoes do it. Again, collaboration
then provides you theopportunity to support others
and to receive support. But ifyou're not collaborative
yourself, if if you don't fostera collaborative environment, the
(27:50):
opportunities for support getget restricted more and more
until people are working theirown little silos and and not
working together. And for sure,you're not gonna get as much
done. You're not gonna you'renot gonna be as innovative.
You're certainly not gonna makediscoveries if all you ever do
is cut yourself off from fromyour fellow lab members. Mhmm.
Skye Marshall (28:15):
So it's a bit like like you said earlier, make
time to be a mentor. I mean, youcould even just make time to be
collaborative and
Ken Vogt (28:24):
Right.
Skye Marshall (28:25):
From that, like mentoring chances could arise,
but either way, it's a good ideato make time to be
collaborative.
Ken Vogt (28:34):
And you may tell yourself, well, I can't make
time. I just I don't have timeto make.
Skye Marshall (28:37):
That's not hard.
Ken Vogt (28:39):
But that is I'm on this. Here's a challenging
thought. That is just a belief.If you believe you can make
time, you will be able to maketime. And if you start thinking
about your own experience inlife, you've you will certainly
find examples where that wastrue.
Sometimes it's like, well, Ihave to make time. You know?
It's it's life and death maybewhether literally or not. When
(29:03):
things are life or death, wefind a way. We make time, or
we're not here we're not herefor the next time.
Right? No. You're not you're notalive. You're not gonna be on
that job anymore. You know?
You figure it out. So sometimeswe have to test out test out the
limits that we believe are inplace. Maybe they're not really
there.
Skye Marshall (29:26):
Yeah. Yeah. And maybe just starting small. You
know, it doesn't have to be nowyou've become someone who is
always around for other people.
Ken Vogt (29:35):
Right. Right. Well yeah. And sometimes that you
can't always be around for otherpeople. You have things you have
to do for you too.
You you can do things foryourself, you can do things for
others, and some people thinkthat that's the either or. It's
not true. You you can do thingsfor others and yourself. If if
(29:56):
you develop a protocol that'suseful and you record it and now
other people can use that, butyou benefited too because you
figured out the protocol. It'sand and now there's a protocol
available to you.
Whether you did it or somebodyelse did isn't isn't really
important at that moment. Thefact is it's still available to
you. It did just because otherscan use it doesn't mean you
(30:17):
can't.
Skye Marshall (30:19):
Yeah. Exactly. And it could just be I I don't
know if you'd feel the pressure.If other people are gonna use
this protocol, I better make itperfect, but actually it can
make a huge difference just tohave somebody else's rough draft
of a protocol. Maybe they'vealready left the lab.
They're just looking for anysort of guidance and if you
leave behind that, that sort ofpaper trail that could be really
(30:42):
helpful for them and not,hopefully not too much extra
time for yourself.
Ken Vogt (30:49):
Exactly.
Skye Marshall (30:49):
There's another question that's come through.
Ken Vogt (30:51):
Oh, please.
Skye Marshall (30:52):
Just to, interject. If, this person's
asked, what if a person does notwant to be helped?
Ken Vogt (31:04):
Yeah. I mean, there's lots of reasons why somebody
might not wanna be helped, thatwill have nothing to do with you
or even with the work. You know,for if if they've if they feel
like if I accept help, then Ilook weak, then I look I look
unqualified. Yeah. That could bereally hard for them.
(31:24):
So the first thing you can do ina setting like that, if you if
you still believe that mentoringthem is worth doing, the first
thing you can do is just tosoften up your approach, and and
just just pull back a littlebit. Maybe just ask questions.
(31:45):
You don't have to give themanswers. Just ask the question
so they will seek the answer.Maybe they'll figure it out the
answer for themselves, but ormaybe they'll go, you know what?
Why don't you just tell me? Youknow? And, yes, you know,
sometimes that kind ofinteraction could feel a little
abrasive. But if we can thickenup our skin a little bit, we may
(32:06):
find that, you know what,they're they're not they're not
fighting against me. They'refighting against something else
that that's inside them that hasnothing to do with me, and that
makes it easier.
Now there will be times whensome people, like, they don't
wanna be helped, that they'renot open to being helped. We'll
accept that truth that thisperson doesn't they don't want
(32:26):
to be helped. Now you may lookat in the broad the the bigger
picture and go, that's aproblem. Yeah. But is it your
problem to solve?
It may be may be at that point,it's something that should be
shared up the chain. Let letmanagement deal with that. If
they if they've assigned you tohelp somebody and they're
(32:48):
resisting, you by all means, youshould you should be talking to
your boss about that. Look.Look.
I I'm open to doing this. I'mopen to helping them, but
they're not open to receiving.You gotta help me out here. And
if you can do that withoutjudgment, you know, like,
they're look at them. They'rearrogant.
They're, you know, they're allthis and that. Like, doesn't
matter. We're gonna deal witharrogant people. Boy, in smart
(33:12):
people, especially, there are alot of smart people that are
arrogant. Get over it.
Yeah. That's how it is. And itdoesn't mean they won't receive.
It you you just have to maybe bea little more skilled. And to
get more skilled, you have tohave these experiences of,
trying to do things when you'reunskilled.
(33:32):
Mhmm. You may find as you getbetter at at the the broad job
of mentorship that people aremore receptive. It's it's
amazing that people got morereceptive. Yeah. Because you
were easier to receive.
You know? So take some personalresponsibility for that too and,
you know, set the judgmentaside. It's it's not worth it.
Skye Marshall (33:53):
Right. It all comes back to actually, it's an
opportunity for your own growthand Yeah. That you should
embrace it. And there is,conscious decisions you can do
to to help it work for everyone.
Ken Vogt (34:10):
Definitely.
Skye Marshall (34:10):
Yeah. I wish I had that, sort of perspective.
You know?
Ken Vogt (34:14):
Well, you can't say I wish I had it. You could say I I
I wish I wish I had it in thepast maybe, but there's nothing
stopping you from having itright now for you can start
anew. So this this does thisquestion and your comments also
lead to my final point. I thinkthere's there's 3 different
(34:37):
motifs that can be applied tomentoring. The first is
teaching.
That is you're just conveyinginformation. Right? The second
is shepherding. That is you'rehelping them to to assimilate
information and to guide themtoward seeking the right
information so that they'reactually looking for it instead
(34:58):
of just, you know, unwillinglyreceiving it. And the 3rd level,
I will call it mirroring.
And when you're mirroringsomeone, you're just reflecting
back to them what they're being.And you're and, again, you can
only do mirroring withoutjudgment. You you gotta be free
of judgment. You just can't getthere. But it is amazing what
(35:21):
people can learn when theyreally see themselves and see
what they do.
Do you realize what you're doinghere right now? Do you do you
see why you're having thisproblem? And by the way, you
know, other people are nothaving this problem when they
are are using this procedure. Doyou see what happened? Did you
see why, you know, I mean,there's examples of things like
(35:43):
why why cleanliness reallymattered in this particular
setting?
Why you really had to havethings clean and clear? Why you
should be using this instrumentrather than that instrument or
this or this kit rather thanthat kit. That that is the most
effective kind of of mentoringthat you can you can have. But
(36:08):
wherever the level you're at inany situation, you know, any any
of those modes are useful. It'sjust they can get progressively
more useful, and people willseek you out.
When people seek you out as amentor, your reputation goes up,
and reputation is very importantin the field of science, in your
individual lab. If you have areputation of somebody who knows
(36:31):
what they're doing, who getsthings done, who's got insight,
that's who's got creativity,that that is steroids for your
career. So it's all good foryou. So if you're thinking, I
don't wanna have to guide thesesheep. You know what?
Do it anyway. It's worth it. Andat at some point, you may
(36:53):
recognize, you know, actually,this this is a more fun part of
of my job than I ever realizedit would be. You might not even
thought there was such a aposition before, but now that
you know about it, you know, getout there and and be the best
mentor you can be.
Skye Marshall (37:12):
Yeah. I was thinking that of my experience
of, times where I've beenmentored, I just wonder if they
understand the actual differencethey made to me and how I'll be
forever appreciative. I'llalways remember. And I don't
know if I'm ever in a situationwhere I could be of help to
(37:33):
these people, I would I wouldjump at it.
Ken Vogt (37:36):
Exactly. Exactly. Alright. Well, that's that's
everything I had to say today.Is there anything else you
wanted to add, Skye?
Skye Marshall (37:44):
Okay. No. I don't think so. That was great.
Ken Vogt (37:47):
Well, thank you so much for, for cohosting with me
today. It's always it's it'salways great to to get input
from from a new voice andsomebody who's got a different
different, perspective onthings.
Skye Marshall (37:59):
Alright. Well, yeah. Thank you for putting
everything into words, all theseperspective and thoughts that
takes years actually to figureout sometimes.
Ken Vogt (38:10):
Sometimes.
Skye Marshall (38:11):
Yeah. Excellent. So we've reached the end of our
time today. Thank you for yourinsights Ken and thank you to
the audience for listening in,for contributing questions, and
for listening live or on demand.So if you enjoyed this content,
(38:35):
please subscribe to The HappyScientists on your favorite
podcast platform or YouTube.
Listen back to our earlierepisodes, which are packed with
equally useful wisdom. And ofcourse tell your colleagues so
we can help spread the happyscientists. Also look out for
more live happy scientistsepisodes in the coming months.
You can find them listed onevents.bitesizebio.com And then
(39:02):
until then, good luck with yourresearch, and goodbye from all
of us at Bite Size Bio.
Ken Vogt (39:08):
Bye.
VX (39:14):
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