June 14, 2024 • 36 mins
#72 — Freedom is not having lots of options—it's choosing between them.
You are free to choose.
Now think about that in the context of your research project and career. Are there any decisions you would approach differently? Is there anything you tend to avoid because you worry it will limit your options in the future?
You might worry that specializing in a specific technique or instrument makes you less widely employable. Or you might worry about the consequences of taking projects in the same institute for a long time compared to what you might achieve if you move from project to project and country to country.
In this episode of The Happy Scientist, explore why making decisions that keep the maximum number of options open to you doesn't necessarily mean they are the best decisions.
Watch or Listen to all episodes of The Happy Scientist podcast here: https://thehappyscientist.bitesizebio.com
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If you enjoyed this episode and want more practical tips on being a happy and successful scientist, we can help. Download The Happy Scientist Reference Pack today, and reignite your passion for science.
https://bitesizebio.com/the-happy-scientist-reference-pack/?ref=bsb-podcast
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro/Outro (00:30):
This is the Happy Scientist Podcast. Each episode
is designed to make you morefocused, more productive, and
more satisfied in the lab. Youcan find us online at
bitesizebio.com/happyscientist.Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt,
founder of the executivecoaching firm, Vera Claritas,
and doctor Nick Oswald, PhD,bioscientist, and founder of
(00:53):
Bite Size Bio.
Nick Oswald (01:00):
Hello. This is Nick Oswald welcoming you to this
Bite Size Bio webinar, whichtoday is a live episode of the
Happy Scientist podcast. If youwant to become a happier,
healthier, and more productivescientist, you are in the right
place. With me, as always, isthe Bite sized Bio team's mister
Miyagi, mister Kenneth Voke. Inthese sessions, we'll hear from
(01:20):
Ken mostly on principles thatwill help shape you for a
happier and a more successfulcareer.
And along the way, I'll touch inwith points from my personal
experience as a scientist andfrom working with Ken. If you
have any questions along theway, put them into the questions
box on the side of your screen,and I will put them to Ken. And
today, we will be discussing whykeeping your options open is
(01:41):
holding you back. Okay, Ken.Take it away.
Alright.
Kenneth Vogt (01:48):
So the notion of having options, doesn't that
sound wonderful? I would love tohave more options. Seems like
options are the source offreedom. That's there's just
nothing bad that could possiblybe there. Right?
Not so much. Not I know that maysound a bit provocative, but
(02:11):
give me a chance to to talkabout that and also to talk
about what the solution is tothe problem you may not even
know you have yet. So the firstthing about options that you
have to do is you have to decidewhich option you're gonna take
in any given moment. Right? So,that word decide, it's kind of
(02:37):
an interesting word.
If we take it apart, the thesuffix is side, and you're gonna
recognize side from other wordsthat have that as a suffix, like
homicide, suicide, fratricide.What does side mean? Well, it
(03:01):
means to cut off. So when youdecide, you cut off your
options. Oh, that soundshorrible.
So wouldn't it be better to justto hang on to those to those
options? Because, you know, thenI have possibilities. Right?
That's that's the notion. Well,not exactly.
(03:27):
What people end up doing in thatthat situation is they hoard
their options. They think if Ihave more options, things are
better. So there there are, halfa dozen projects I could be
working on. There are there are3 or 4 initiatives that I could
sign up for. There are multipleopportunities for jobs.
(03:51):
You know, I could work in thislab or that lab or this other
lab. I could take this this,lateral promotion that puts me
in a different area. And andwhat we do is we we spend our
time pondering all of thosethings and fantasizing about
them. Like, wow, wouldn't it begreat if I went over and joined
(04:15):
this group or I moved to thislab? Wouldn't it be wonderful if
I ran this particular experimentor that one?
Or what if I did both? And sonow what we start doing is we
start stacking up these thingsthat are, that feel real, but
(04:37):
they're not real. They haven'thappened yet. They're just
possibilities. But we're givingourselves all kinds of warm
fuzzy feelings from all thestuff we might do, that we could
do, that it's possible we'll do.
The problem with all this stuffis none of the possibilities
make it onto your resume. Thatthe lab you didn't join,
(05:02):
although you could have, doesn'tcount. The the program that you
didn't participate in doesn'tcount until you participate.
Nothing happens there. Yep.
And so, then we become we becomea hoarder of of options. And,
you know, maybe you've seen someof these reality TV shows of
(05:25):
people that are caught up inthat kind of behavior. And it's
heartbreaking, and it's painful.They they think they're
improving your life. They thinkthey're making things richer,
but they're doing exactly theopposite to the point where you
get so frozen in possibilitiesthat you never pick any.
(05:46):
You never do anything toactually move forward. Now
that's a dangerous place to be.At some point, you have to
actually commit and dosomething. That's the that's the
stuff that allows you to havefuture opportunities. If you
(06:06):
don't wanna have any moreopportunities other than ones
you have right now, don't makeany decisions.
Don't pick any. And that's it.Your your opportunities will
start to dry up. And and that'sa real problem. So there's a
there's an interesting,historical account about Cortez.
(06:28):
Cortez lands in Mexico, and hehe knows his crew is exhausted
from the long journey, and hewants to motivate them to
succeed in this new land. So heorders them to burn the boats.
Right? And, you know, we'veprobably heard that that,
(06:49):
account before. But why doesthat work?
Because it took away theirpossibilities. They couldn't
sail off to somewhere else. Theycouldn't sail back home. They
had to make it here now withwhat's going on in this moment.
And, well, arguably, it worked.
(07:10):
And it allowed them obviously tomake very hard choices. And I'm,
you know, I'm not, you know,standing for colonialism or or
the the conquistadors, but butthe point is is that we are in
settings like that every dayourselves. We have to make we
have to make some decisions, Andwe gotta gotta take some
(07:32):
something from among our choicesand actually start doing it and
actually make it reality. And inso doing, that means other
things are going away. Nowsometimes they go away just
because you don't have timeright now.
But, other times they go awaybecause because they had a short
(07:58):
shelf life. Sometimes anopportunity presents itself to
you, and it's if you don't takeit now or at least take it soon,
it'll be gone. Now if there's ajob opening somewhere, it'll
only be open till it's filled.Right? If there's an opportunity
to put your hand up and say, Iwanna run that experiment, I
(08:19):
wanna take charge of thatprogram.
If you don't say yes to it,chances are someone else will,
and then it's no longer therefor you. So the bottom line is
not now what do I do? Well, whatyou do is you choose your
priorities. Now that's a that isa different thing than choosing
(08:39):
among your options. Choosingyour priorities is it it creates
the opportunity for what willhappen next.
Because if you have a variety ofoptions in front of you and you
don't know what to do, Well, ifyou don't know what to do, it's
probably because you haven'tselected your priorities yet. So
(09:00):
if you select your prioritiesand then use that as a map for a
while what would fit into that?Well, I wanna make sure I move
up in this particular lab. I Iwould like to become a PI here.
Well, then you start seeingopportunities to say, what will
help me with that?
Well, that won't. That will.Well, now it's clear. Well, that
(09:23):
first one might have been fun,might be interesting. But if it
doesn't help you in your careeradvancement and that is
something that you care about inthis moment, then then you need
to choose other things.
Now it's not to say thateverything you do has to be
about career advancement.Sometimes you are there because
you just enjoy the work. And soyou wanna do work that's
(09:45):
exciting and stimulating, andmaybe maybe you wanna work with
certain equipment. Maybe there'smaybe there are things you wanna
develop with your own hands.Those are fine priorities.
Just be be clear about them. Bebe aware what your priorities
(10:07):
are. If if you take a close lookat your priorities, you might
examine them based on thechoices you've made up till now.
So it would appear that mypriority has been to to make it
as easy on myself as possible.My priority was just to have
fun.
My priority was just to dothings I think are interesting.
(10:30):
My priority was to do things bymyself. My priority was to do
things with other people. No.None of those things are
necessarily bad.
But if they're not if they'renot chosen with awareness, then
what your options are, they lookdifferent. And sometimes, once
(10:52):
you have clear priorities, someoptions just go away. And not go
away in that they're snatchedaway from you, but you look at
them real as they never reallywere an option. Based on my
priorities, that's not of anyvalue to me whatsoever. So it
clarifies things.
It makes it easier to pick whatyou need. And it also makes it
(11:12):
clear, like, wow. I don't likethe options that are available
to me right now. Or I don't haveany options available to me
right now. Well, when you seethat, that allows you to then
take a good hard look and say,do I need to make a change
somehow?
Do I do I need to improve myreputation? Do I need to be
(11:33):
somewhere else? Do I need to bearound different people? You you
start to find out that somesometimes people you're hanging
out with, you enjoy them, butthey're not helping you advance
in your career. Sometimes yourealize that the way things are
has to be different if you'regonna get where you wanna go.
(11:55):
And you won't know that untilyou you really focus your
awareness on what yourpriorities are. So, Nick, I
will, ask you. What do you thinkabout the notion of keeping your
options open?
Nick Oswald (12:12):
It's pretty interesting actually because I
I've given a quite a lot ofcareer talks from my own
perspective on on not gettingtoo fixed on one option and not
can not getting too fixed onhere's my path, and, and I'm not
(12:33):
gonna consider anything else.And then freaking out when you
can't get there. And I'm justtrying to ponder on that and I I
was as you were saying talkingthere. And and I think that I
think that it's kind of a yinand yang type thing. So there's
one thing.
There's one moment to keep youroptions open and assess them
from where you are now, where,you know, the the approach that
(12:56):
I take when I speak to peopleabout careers is look look at
where you are now. Look at thegeneral direction you would like
to go in. Take a step to go inthat direction, but keep your
eyes open for the the variety ofoptions because then you can
branch off into a different wayand a different pathway, that
you might not have been able tosee and, and, you know, in the
(13:18):
beginning. You see what I mean?So one example one is example is
how I came to do Bite Size Bio.
I didn't do that. I didn'tdecide, at some point I was
gonna do that. It came up as anoption based on me following a
particular path. But I whatyou're talking about is quite
interesting. It's at the momentthat you make the decision of
(13:40):
burning all the other bridges,and that's quite an interesting
one is to because that's then amore masculine thing.
It's about energy focuseddecisions and generating
momentum. Yeah?
Kenneth Vogt (13:53):
Yeah. Definitely.
Nick Oswald (13:55):
And so if you're trying to relate that to someone
who like, say you want to takethe classical scientific path.
You want your, your your in gradschool or your postdoc, and
you're you want to be at the topresearch wise. You want to be a
a top level researcher, and,that's where you want to get get
(14:16):
to. And 1 and 1 and your, youknow, your school of thought
there, it's about burning thebridges and doing all of the
things that it takes to get youthere, committing. Yeah.
Kenneth Vogt (14:31):
Sure.
Nick Oswald (14:33):
But in the other school of thought, there's also
the option to, while you'regoing, just stop every so often,
have a look around and say, isthis right for me? You know, are
there am I now at a stage wherethere are other options that are
more appealing? Yes, no. Right.If it's yes, then refocus and
off you go again.
Kenneth Vogt (14:51):
Well and and that's kind of my main point is
when you take those moments tojust consider what possibilities
are available in in this moment,that's that's fine. Yeah. And
and it feels good to to ponderthat stuff. But if all you're
doing is daydreaming andfantasizing, nothing happens. At
(15:15):
some point, you're gonna have topick one of those new options
and do it.
And and I agree with what you'resaying it is kind of a masculine
thing, and that's not to takeaway from from any woman in
science. Women have masculineenergy too. They'll they, you
know, they just use it differentthan men do. And I mean, that's
(15:37):
a broad statement, but,sometimes you need to do the the
masculine thing. Sometimes youneed to do the feminine thing,
the nurturing, the the receivingpart, and that's fine.
But understand that when itcomes to your options, just
keeping them open doesn't doanything for either kind of
(16:00):
energy. Nothing is happeningthere. Nothing is being brought
into reality. Reality happensafter you pick one of your
choices, because then thensomething starts to happen, and
it doesn't always turn outperfect either. Sometimes you
you start something, you'relike, woah.
That didn't that didn't go aseasy as I hoped it would. In
(16:22):
fact, didn't go the way I wantedit to at all. Well, that
happens. That's one of the oneof the costs of making choices
among your options. Andsometimes, that means other
options that were available whenyou made your your decision are
gone now.
That happens. And that's justthat's that's a price you have
(16:43):
to accept when it comes time toto make your choice. You can't
probably be employed in 2 labsat once. You know? So when you
pick 1, the other one may wellgo away.
That option may not be availableto you anymore. Now sometimes
you can you can hang on to yourother options for a bit or even
(17:05):
for a long time. You know? Soit's not like making a choice is
gonna mean that you're you'redoomed. Everything else is gone
forever.
You know? Well, maybe, maybenot. So it's just about being
aware when you when you have topick up an option and take it
from from just a thought into areality. You know? Then then it
(17:29):
becomes a different game.
Nick Oswald (17:34):
Yep. So I suppose if I look at my if you look at
my own my pathway, professionalpathway as an example, right,
then and so I was all set to bea PI. That's what I want to do.
I want to go up to the top andresearch. And I discovered a
small detail that I didn't likeacademia after the end of my,
(17:54):
my, after grad school at the endof grad school.
And so it was I committed to theto grad school, got to the end,
you know, and did the, you know,the burn the bridges thing. This
is this is all what I'm doing.Funny enough, I did think about
stopping and doing somethingelse, but that was a big energy
diffuser. That that that thattook away a lot of focus, so
(18:15):
that's the kind of the premiseyou're talking about here, I
guess. At the end of that, thenI got to the, I I realized I
didn't want to be in grad schoolanymore.
So, I didn't want to be anacademia anymore. Sorry. I had
the PhD, so I wanted to stay inscience. I wanted to go into
biotech. So I did that.
Committed to that. After 7 or 8years of that, I decided I would
(18:35):
much rather be in publishing,but I didn't know how to do
that. So, I just startedwriting, and that was the blog
that turned out to be BitesizeBio. I didn't know that at the
time. But at some point I thenmade a commitment that Bitesize
Bio was gonna be a business.
And, and so each of those isthis the flip between the you
(18:56):
have a a course, you commit tothat, and then you make a
decision, and then you commit tothat decision. And then so
there's there's 2 there there'sthere's a, a decision phrase, a
very short decision phrase, andthen a commitment phase, it
looks like to me. But I I hadn'tthought of the idea of of, you
(19:17):
know, your, that once you'vemade the decision, then then
burn the boat. Sure. Because ifyou can't if you are in Mexico
or was it Mexico?
Yeah. It was Mexico. Yeah. InQuinta, wasn't it? And Mhmm.
You and you have a an a reallyhard job of of setting up there.
(19:39):
And you keep most likely lookingback at the boats that could
take you back to the stuff youknow. That's gonna take a lot of
energy out there. It's gonnatake a lot of energy out of you.
A lot of focus.
And potentially lead to arebellion in that that crew, you
know. And Right. And I guess thesame thing happens with you and
yourself. If you keep lookingback to past years old or or
(20:02):
past years new even, you know,then you keep looking over the
fence. The grass is alwaysgreener, and it just that's all
taking energy away from what youcould be committing to.
Sure. You know, energy could becommitting to the cost. Is that
the central premise that you'retalking about?
Kenneth Vogt (20:19):
Yeah. And, you know, there's there's another
side to this. The the shadowside of this is when you decide
not to take an option. So let'ssay you you've chosen this
particular path, but if you'llstill leave everything open,
like you say, it's still justit's you can look over your
(20:40):
shoulder and and wistfullywonder what would happen if I do
that instead? Whereas if youdecide, no.
You know, one thing I'm forsure, I'm not gonna do x
anymore. X is no longer anoption for me, And it clarifies
things. It just it just clearsthe air a bit. And sometimes we
look at that and it's like, Iguess I gotta give that up. You
(21:03):
know?
It's a painful loss. Othertimes, it's like, you know, it's
just a distraction. I want thisgone. Yeah. You can you can
choose how you feel about theseoptions.
And and it doesn't mean youdon't have to demonize anything.
You're like, well, that's astupid option. I'm not gonna do
that. And and and that is a aimmoral option. You know, I
(21:26):
can't do that.
And, you know, it's just you'regonna choose. And that's it.
That's where you're gonna gonow. Because that's the new
reality. Reality is where youget to do things.
Other things are just I'm gonnasay just fantasy, but they they
haven't they haven't yet gelledinto reality. And it's, it's not
(21:46):
the same world. You know, thatunmanifest stuff is quite
interesting. And, and it's goodto ponder things. It's good to
contemplate in, you know, in inyour business, you do need to
think outside the box.
And outside the box is outsideof reality. Right? But at some
point, it's you gotta you gottatake that, whatever you gained
(22:07):
from that, and bring it toreality because reality is is
the actual job you have. It'sthe actual assignment you have.
It's the actual experimentyou're doing.
You know, it's something thatthat that could be put on paper
that this is what happened. It'sit is it is gonna become a host
a historical event. And and ifyou don't ever have any history,
(22:31):
you don't have any resume. Youdon't have any resume. You don't
have any future.
Nick Oswald (22:39):
There's a quote. Yeah. Okay. I'm guessing I'm
just trying to think ofexamples, but of where people
will have felt that commitmentand and can feel the difference.
One very simple one is if youlook at those people who are,
you know, those internal studentpeople where they where they
(22:59):
they do a course and then theydo another course.
And then, well, that one wouldbe good. Oh, and then and then
they just collect lots of stage1 experience if you like.
Because they never commit to godeeper into one area. I don't
know what what drives that. It'sjust it it I don't know.
(23:19):
But and and it's not a judgmenton it. It's just that if you
then, you know, everyone on herepresumably has has, done some
level of scientific training andthen decided they're gonna go
deeper down one one line. Andthat that is what then starts to
open up different doors, andactually then that's when you
really start living and movingup to different light. Not start
(23:41):
you're not you're still livingas a student. But that's when
you really start start livingthat journey if you like.
Kenneth Vogt (23:50):
Right. And some things just won't. Your your
your future options won't appearuntil you till you start making
some decisions and move forward.
Nick Oswald (24:02):
Okay.
Kenneth Vogt (24:02):
So right now, you have you have the options you
have, but you're gonna have moreoptions in the future. But only
because you decided on some pastoptions, and it started to take
you down a path. So you can'tjust sit there and wait at the
crossroads and hope that they'regonna build new roads to you.
(24:22):
It's not gonna work like that.Yep.
Yep.
Nick Oswald (24:26):
And I guess, what what are the things that drive
people to not make thosedecisions? It's it's fear of the
unknown. It's, you know, that'sprobably a big one, actually.
Yeah. That's for sure.
Fear of the next step, generallyfear, and or some sort of
uncertainty or indecision in away. Is that Mhmm. Not true?
Kenneth Vogt (24:50):
Yeah. Well, I'm we've all had that experience
our entire lives. They were justmore childish experiences when
we were when we were a child orwhen we were children. But, you
know, the fact is you learn towalk because it never crossed
your mind to not be a walker.You learn to talk because it
(25:12):
never crossed your mind to notbe a talker.
That pattern is already there,it's already built in, and
you've already succeeded at it.The fact that you've gotten as
far as you've gotten in youreducation already says that
you've been choosing among youroptions and taking action. Well,
(25:33):
now just keep going. Now it'sthe next phase. And it's always
been about the unknown.
In fact, the unknown that youdon't have to be afraid of it.
You can be excited about it. Iwanna see the unknown. I wanna
get in there. I wanna I wannasee what's going on.
And and that's where all thejuice in life is gonna come
from. And, yes, sometimes theexperiences will be hard.
(25:54):
Sometimes you will lose, but itdoesn't have to kill you. And
you can protect yourself. You'vegot again, you've gotten this
far and protected yourself tothis to this point.
You you're gonna keep doingthat. You're gonna be alright.
Nick Oswald (26:12):
Yeah. Just a quote to me there actually that, I
always have a a bit of astruggle processing when people
talk about getting in you know,don't stop getting in your own
way. You know? And what we'retalking what you're talking
about there is well, as a child,you don't get in your own way.
You just do it because you don'tyou've got no other frame of
(26:32):
reference.
You don't know what might gowrong. Right? Right. As you as
you become more and more
experienced, you think you knowmore and more of what can go
wrong, and, and that can driveyou to get in your own way of
making the the necessary nextstep of just taking the rest.
And, you know, you see that inpeople who stay in the same
(26:53):
place for a long, long time eventhough it's over ripened for
them.
You know? I like that phrase.But but they've taken they've
taken the path has not becomeoptimal for them, but they're
too scared to make of what mightgo wrong if they make the next
step. And as you say, thatthat's that's where the juice
(27:14):
is, is is looking for, you know,looking for the next I wouldn't
even say the next level. What'sthe next challenge?
You know? And, I'm I'm just abit fascinated by this kind of
this this sort of tensionbetween between looking at the
(27:34):
options and then committing toan option. Because if you're in
the job that you've been in for15 years that is not fulfilling
anymore, that that, you know,you hate everything about it,
but you're too scared to move,then you're playing it like you
you will play it looking at allthe options. You maybe even just
in a kind of fantasy way. Whatwhat's next this mix of the fire
to go this?
(27:54):
Let's take the risk regardless.On the boats, let's see what
happens.
Kenneth Vogt (27:57):
Yeah. I have a friend who is a a
anesthesiologist. So, obviously,she's an MD. She's been doing
this now for 20 some years. Soshe's been through all the
education.
She's now she's had all theexperience, and she got to she's
gotten to the point where she'sthinking, I think I'm done with
(28:19):
this. I don't wanna be I don'twanna be an anesthesiologist
anymore. She still goes to workevery day, does her job. She
very much cares about helpingpeople, but she can feel that
it's time to do somethingdifferent. So, yeah, she's gonna
she's gonna have to jettison allthis investment she's made to
(28:40):
get into where she is now, and Ithink a lot of a lot of
scientists can relate to this.
You put a huge amount ofinvestment into getting getting
your degrees. And now you've ifyou've been in the lab for a
while, you've put in a hugeinvestment there. And what now?
I'm supposed to open up a Subwayrestaurant? You know what?
(29:00):
Why would I do somethingcompletely different? Well, who
knows? Who knows why you woulddo something different? Why you
might make a a lateral shift ora shift with different kind of
work in science, like what Nickdescribed. You know, he was on
the path of being a PI, and allof a sudden that shifted.
And now he's been for theselast, what, 12, 13, 15 years
(29:24):
being a publisher, but inscience. So he didn't he didn't
throw away what he had from thepast. He found a new way to
build on it, but that'ssomething that might not have
been in his awareness at allwhen, you know, he was first
working on getting his his,bachelor of science in biology.
Right? It it only arrived laterafter he continued to choose
(29:49):
among his options.
Nick Oswald (29:52):
Have had a similar journey of going from being a
specialist to, you know, not ageneralist, but going to some
that's not within thatspecialism?
Kenneth Vogt (30:00):
Yeah. That's for sure. And I would have never
guessed that, and I wouldn'thave chosen it earlier in my
career.
Nick Oswald (30:06):
Yeah. Right. The funny thing that that it taught
me this taught me was that Ithought that, being a scientist
is about knowing lots aboutscience. Right? And it isn't.
It's it's about a way ofthinking, and a way of
conducting yourself, and a wayof driving yourself, and you can
(30:26):
use that for lots of otherthings as well. And, you know,
it get it sets you up for a lotof other I keep looking at these
tracks on the screen, actually.It it sets it sets you up to go
down either power down either ofthose tracks that can have
completely differentdestinations. Yeah. Depending on
what you apply it to.
Kenneth Vogt (30:45):
I I like that illustration because the left or
the right, they look the same.There's nothing about in one
path over the other that looksobvious that I obviously, the
the left side is better. No.That's not obvious here at all,
and it won't be obvious untilyou go down the track and see
where it leads.
Nick Oswald (31:07):
Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot there's a lot to this,
actually, and and this is justone angle that you've looked at
here, which is about how do youtake the step, how do you power
such a change and such a how doyou how do you power going deep
into something? And that's it.It's interesting.
Because even though I wouldconsider myself I've gone deep
(31:28):
into some I can still see whereI don't run the bridges. And so,
okay, what can I prune away?What the choices can I prune
away to leave myself withnothing to focus on except going
deep into the most importantparts of it? And that that's
something that everyone caneveryone can take regardless of
what position they're in, Ithink.
Kenneth Vogt (31:48):
Yeah. Options can be a weight on you. You have to
keep managing them. You have tokeep feeding and watering them.
You know?
Or if it's gone, then I have tothink about it again. It's over.
And
Nick Oswald (31:59):
they they feel so safe, though. It feels so nice
and comfort comforting to havethem.
Kenneth Vogt (32:03):
Well, but that's an illusion because they're not
real yet.
Nick Oswald (32:07):
That's true.
Kenneth Vogt (32:08):
The things that are safe are the things that you
have actually put into practice.Now that's the stuff that that's
the stuff that is providingsafety, the possibility of the
future. I mean, I'm not antipossibility. Don't get me wrong
here, but but we have tounderstand that possibilities in
reality are not the same thing.
Nick Oswald (32:29):
Yeah. Motion is the safest way, actually. Yeah.
Yeah. Isn't it?
Motion towards an intention isthe safest way. Oh, there's a
quote. So I'm just thinkingabout when we start working
together, and what I wanted todo was was, you know, you we
work together. You helped mewith to to, stabilize Bite Size
(32:52):
Bio as a business. And and whatI desperately want to do was to
make it safe and make it a levelthat I could understand, and and
it was in a box, and that wasall good.
And one of the things she taughtme very early on is that
standing still is not safe. Youneed to keep you you need to be
moving to an upward trajectory,and that's where the motion is.
(33:12):
It's also where the bumps are,but that's why that's why life
can be challenging. And thenovercoming the challenge, that's
where you get more experienceand all that stuff.
Kenneth Vogt (33:22):
Well, yeah, all you biologists out there, isn't
that one of the ways you assessthat something is alive and
healthy is that it's moving? Ifit's not moving, you wonder if
it's dead. Right?
Nick Oswald (33:33):
Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. No. That's
this went off on a tangentactually, but, it's, I think
that I think it's a great topic,and, and hopefully people get,
get some get some in insight ininto it from yourself because I
think this is literallyapplicable to any any, any
(33:55):
position, anyone in anyposition.
It's that thing of if you lookat someone else and think that
they don't have to, you know, intheir position, they don't have
to burn the bridges and godeeper, then it's because in
order to go deeper and and to tostay stay living that they have
to that the best thing they cando is go deeper then. It's
(34:17):
probably an illusion because youcan't see you you can't it
always looks better when youlook at someone else's life.
And, I think everyone in anyposition can take something from
this and go, how can I make thiseasier on myself by giving
myself less choice?
Kenneth Vogt (34:34):
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Well, I'd say that's a
good, good breaking point, andwe've given people something to
ponder, and we've shown someapplication. So let's see what
y'all do with it in your world.
Nick Oswald (34:51):
Okay, Kane. Thanks for that, wonderful insight. So
hopefully that sparked some,ideas or realisation or
questions for you. And if you,if you have questions that you
would like to ask us about it,you can, do it via the the
contact page on Bite Size Bio orby the Happy Scientist Facebook
(35:14):
page, which is Facebook forwardslash The Happy Scientist
Podcast. And don't forget to goback and look at if you find
this useful, go back and look atour, previous episodes, which
are on, on YouTube, and they areon, your favorite podcast
platform as well.
So until then until next timerather, good luck in your
(35:37):
research and goodbye from all ofus at Bitesize Bio, including
mister Miami.
Kenneth Vogt (35:42):
Okay. Bye
Intro/Outro (35:49):
The happy scientist is brought to you by Bite Size
Bio, your mentor in the lab.Bite Size Bio features thousands
of articles and webinarscontributed by hundreds of PhD
scientists and scientificcompanies who freely offer their
hard won wisdom and solutions tothe bite sized bio community.
This is the Happy Scientist Podcast. Each episode
is designed to make you morefocused, more productive, and
more satisfied in the lab. Youcan find us online at
bitesizebio.com/happyscientist.Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt,
founder of the executivecoaching firm, Vera Claritas,
and doctor Nick Oswald, PhD,bioscientist, and founder of
(00:53):
Bite Size Bio.
Nick Oswald (01:00):
Hello. This is Nick Oswald welcoming you to this
Bite Size Bio webinar, whichtoday is a live episode of the
Happy Scientist podcast. If youwant to become a happier,
healthier, and more productivescientist, you are in the right
place. With me, as always, isthe Bite sized Bio team's mister
Miyagi, mister Kenneth Voke. Inthese sessions, we'll hear from
(01:20):
Ken mostly on principles thatwill help shape you for a
happier and a more successfulcareer.
And along the way, I'll touch inwith points from my personal
experience as a scientist andfrom working with Ken. If you
have any questions along theway, put them into the questions
box on the side of your screen,and I will put them to Ken. And
today, we will be discussing whykeeping your options open is
(01:41):
holding you back. Okay, Ken.Take it away.
Alright.
Kenneth Vogt (01:48):
So the notion of having options, doesn't that
sound wonderful? I would love tohave more options. Seems like
options are the source offreedom. That's there's just
nothing bad that could possiblybe there. Right?
Not so much. Not I know that maysound a bit provocative, but
(02:11):
give me a chance to to talkabout that and also to talk
about what the solution is tothe problem you may not even
know you have yet. So the firstthing about options that you
have to do is you have to decidewhich option you're gonna take
in any given moment. Right? So,that word decide, it's kind of
(02:37):
an interesting word.
If we take it apart, the thesuffix is side, and you're gonna
recognize side from other wordsthat have that as a suffix, like
homicide, suicide, fratricide.What does side mean? Well, it
(03:01):
means to cut off. So when youdecide, you cut off your
options. Oh, that soundshorrible.
So wouldn't it be better to justto hang on to those to those
options? Because, you know, thenI have possibilities. Right?
That's that's the notion. Well,not exactly.
(03:27):
What people end up doing in thatthat situation is they hoard
their options. They think if Ihave more options, things are
better. So there there are, halfa dozen projects I could be
working on. There are there are3 or 4 initiatives that I could
sign up for. There are multipleopportunities for jobs.
(03:51):
You know, I could work in thislab or that lab or this other
lab. I could take this this,lateral promotion that puts me
in a different area. And andwhat we do is we we spend our
time pondering all of thosethings and fantasizing about
them. Like, wow, wouldn't it begreat if I went over and joined
(04:15):
this group or I moved to thislab? Wouldn't it be wonderful if
I ran this particular experimentor that one?
Or what if I did both? And sonow what we start doing is we
start stacking up these thingsthat are, that feel real, but
(04:37):
they're not real. They haven'thappened yet. They're just
possibilities. But we're givingourselves all kinds of warm
fuzzy feelings from all thestuff we might do, that we could
do, that it's possible we'll do.
The problem with all this stuffis none of the possibilities
make it onto your resume. Thatthe lab you didn't join,
(05:02):
although you could have, doesn'tcount. The the program that you
didn't participate in doesn'tcount until you participate.
Nothing happens there. Yep.
And so, then we become we becomea hoarder of of options. And,
you know, maybe you've seen someof these reality TV shows of
(05:25):
people that are caught up inthat kind of behavior. And it's
heartbreaking, and it's painful.They they think they're
improving your life. They thinkthey're making things richer,
but they're doing exactly theopposite to the point where you
get so frozen in possibilitiesthat you never pick any.
(05:46):
You never do anything toactually move forward. Now
that's a dangerous place to be.At some point, you have to
actually commit and dosomething. That's the that's the
stuff that allows you to havefuture opportunities. If you
(06:06):
don't wanna have any moreopportunities other than ones
you have right now, don't makeany decisions.
Don't pick any. And that's it.Your your opportunities will
start to dry up. And and that'sa real problem. So there's a
there's an interesting,historical account about Cortez.
(06:28):
Cortez lands in Mexico, and hehe knows his crew is exhausted
from the long journey, and hewants to motivate them to
succeed in this new land. So heorders them to burn the boats.
Right? And, you know, we'veprobably heard that that,
(06:49):
account before. But why doesthat work?
Because it took away theirpossibilities. They couldn't
sail off to somewhere else. Theycouldn't sail back home. They
had to make it here now withwhat's going on in this moment.
And, well, arguably, it worked.
(07:10):
And it allowed them obviously tomake very hard choices. And I'm,
you know, I'm not, you know,standing for colonialism or or
the the conquistadors, but butthe point is is that we are in
settings like that every dayourselves. We have to make we
have to make some decisions, Andwe gotta gotta take some
(07:32):
something from among our choicesand actually start doing it and
actually make it reality. And inso doing, that means other
things are going away. Nowsometimes they go away just
because you don't have timeright now.
But, other times they go awaybecause because they had a short
(07:58):
shelf life. Sometimes anopportunity presents itself to
you, and it's if you don't takeit now or at least take it soon,
it'll be gone. Now if there's ajob opening somewhere, it'll
only be open till it's filled.Right? If there's an opportunity
to put your hand up and say, Iwanna run that experiment, I
(08:19):
wanna take charge of thatprogram.
If you don't say yes to it,chances are someone else will,
and then it's no longer therefor you. So the bottom line is
not now what do I do? Well, whatyou do is you choose your
priorities. Now that's a that isa different thing than choosing
(08:39):
among your options. Choosingyour priorities is it it creates
the opportunity for what willhappen next.
Because if you have a variety ofoptions in front of you and you
don't know what to do, Well, ifyou don't know what to do, it's
probably because you haven'tselected your priorities yet. So
(09:00):
if you select your prioritiesand then use that as a map for a
while what would fit into that?Well, I wanna make sure I move
up in this particular lab. I Iwould like to become a PI here.
Well, then you start seeingopportunities to say, what will
help me with that?
Well, that won't. That will.Well, now it's clear. Well, that
(09:23):
first one might have been fun,might be interesting. But if it
doesn't help you in your careeradvancement and that is
something that you care about inthis moment, then then you need
to choose other things.
Now it's not to say thateverything you do has to be
about career advancement.Sometimes you are there because
you just enjoy the work. And soyou wanna do work that's
(09:45):
exciting and stimulating, andmaybe maybe you wanna work with
certain equipment. Maybe there'smaybe there are things you wanna
develop with your own hands.Those are fine priorities.
Just be be clear about them. Bebe aware what your priorities
(10:07):
are. If if you take a close lookat your priorities, you might
examine them based on thechoices you've made up till now.
So it would appear that mypriority has been to to make it
as easy on myself as possible.My priority was just to have
fun.
My priority was just to dothings I think are interesting.
(10:30):
My priority was to do things bymyself. My priority was to do
things with other people. No.None of those things are
necessarily bad.
But if they're not if they'renot chosen with awareness, then
what your options are, they lookdifferent. And sometimes, once
(10:52):
you have clear priorities, someoptions just go away. And not go
away in that they're snatchedaway from you, but you look at
them real as they never reallywere an option. Based on my
priorities, that's not of anyvalue to me whatsoever. So it
clarifies things.
It makes it easier to pick whatyou need. And it also makes it
(11:12):
clear, like, wow. I don't likethe options that are available
to me right now. Or I don't haveany options available to me
right now. Well, when you seethat, that allows you to then
take a good hard look and say,do I need to make a change
somehow?
Do I do I need to improve myreputation? Do I need to be
(11:33):
somewhere else? Do I need to bearound different people? You you
start to find out that somesometimes people you're hanging
out with, you enjoy them, butthey're not helping you advance
in your career. Sometimes yourealize that the way things are
has to be different if you'regonna get where you wanna go.
(11:55):
And you won't know that untilyou you really focus your
awareness on what yourpriorities are. So, Nick, I
will, ask you. What do you thinkabout the notion of keeping your
options open?
Nick Oswald (12:12):
It's pretty interesting actually because I
I've given a quite a lot ofcareer talks from my own
perspective on on not gettingtoo fixed on one option and not
can not getting too fixed onhere's my path, and, and I'm not
(12:33):
gonna consider anything else.And then freaking out when you
can't get there. And I'm justtrying to ponder on that and I I
was as you were saying talkingthere. And and I think that I
think that it's kind of a yinand yang type thing. So there's
one thing.
There's one moment to keep youroptions open and assess them
from where you are now, where,you know, the the approach that
(12:56):
I take when I speak to peopleabout careers is look look at
where you are now. Look at thegeneral direction you would like
to go in. Take a step to go inthat direction, but keep your
eyes open for the the variety ofoptions because then you can
branch off into a different wayand a different pathway, that
you might not have been able tosee and, and, you know, in the
(13:18):
beginning. You see what I mean?So one example one is example is
how I came to do Bite Size Bio.
I didn't do that. I didn'tdecide, at some point I was
gonna do that. It came up as anoption based on me following a
particular path. But I whatyou're talking about is quite
interesting. It's at the momentthat you make the decision of
(13:40):
burning all the other bridges,and that's quite an interesting
one is to because that's then amore masculine thing.
It's about energy focuseddecisions and generating
momentum. Yeah?
Kenneth Vogt (13:53):
Yeah. Definitely.
Nick Oswald (13:55):
And so if you're trying to relate that to someone
who like, say you want to takethe classical scientific path.
You want your, your your in gradschool or your postdoc, and
you're you want to be at the topresearch wise. You want to be a
a top level researcher, and,that's where you want to get get
(14:16):
to. And 1 and 1 and your, youknow, your school of thought
there, it's about burning thebridges and doing all of the
things that it takes to get youthere, committing. Yeah.
Kenneth Vogt (14:31):
Sure.
Nick Oswald (14:33):
But in the other school of thought, there's also
the option to, while you'regoing, just stop every so often,
have a look around and say, isthis right for me? You know, are
there am I now at a stage wherethere are other options that are
more appealing? Yes, no. Right.If it's yes, then refocus and
off you go again.
Kenneth Vogt (14:51):
Well and and that's kind of my main point is
when you take those moments tojust consider what possibilities
are available in in this moment,that's that's fine. Yeah. And
and it feels good to to ponderthat stuff. But if all you're
doing is daydreaming andfantasizing, nothing happens. At
(15:15):
some point, you're gonna have topick one of those new options
and do it.
And and I agree with what you'resaying it is kind of a masculine
thing, and that's not to takeaway from from any woman in
science. Women have masculineenergy too. They'll they, you
know, they just use it differentthan men do. And I mean, that's
(15:37):
a broad statement, but,sometimes you need to do the the
masculine thing. Sometimes youneed to do the feminine thing,
the nurturing, the the receivingpart, and that's fine.
But understand that when itcomes to your options, just
keeping them open doesn't doanything for either kind of
(16:00):
energy. Nothing is happeningthere. Nothing is being brought
into reality. Reality happensafter you pick one of your
choices, because then thensomething starts to happen, and
it doesn't always turn outperfect either. Sometimes you
you start something, you'relike, woah.
That didn't that didn't go aseasy as I hoped it would. In
(16:22):
fact, didn't go the way I wantedit to at all. Well, that
happens. That's one of the oneof the costs of making choices
among your options. Andsometimes, that means other
options that were available whenyou made your your decision are
gone now.
That happens. And that's justthat's that's a price you have
(16:43):
to accept when it comes time toto make your choice. You can't
probably be employed in 2 labsat once. You know? So when you
pick 1, the other one may wellgo away.
That option may not be availableto you anymore. Now sometimes
you can you can hang on to yourother options for a bit or even
(17:05):
for a long time. You know? Soit's not like making a choice is
gonna mean that you're you'redoomed. Everything else is gone
forever.
You know? Well, maybe, maybenot. So it's just about being
aware when you when you have topick up an option and take it
from from just a thought into areality. You know? Then then it
(17:29):
becomes a different game.
Nick Oswald (17:34):
Yep. So I suppose if I look at my if you look at
my own my pathway, professionalpathway as an example, right,
then and so I was all set to bea PI. That's what I want to do.
I want to go up to the top andresearch. And I discovered a
small detail that I didn't likeacademia after the end of my,
(17:54):
my, after grad school at the endof grad school.
And so it was I committed to theto grad school, got to the end,
you know, and did the, you know,the burn the bridges thing. This
is this is all what I'm doing.Funny enough, I did think about
stopping and doing somethingelse, but that was a big energy
diffuser. That that that thattook away a lot of focus, so
(18:15):
that's the kind of the premiseyou're talking about here, I
guess. At the end of that, thenI got to the, I I realized I
didn't want to be in grad schoolanymore.
So, I didn't want to be anacademia anymore. Sorry. I had
the PhD, so I wanted to stay inscience. I wanted to go into
biotech. So I did that.
Committed to that. After 7 or 8years of that, I decided I would
(18:35):
much rather be in publishing,but I didn't know how to do
that. So, I just startedwriting, and that was the blog
that turned out to be BitesizeBio. I didn't know that at the
time. But at some point I thenmade a commitment that Bitesize
Bio was gonna be a business.
And, and so each of those isthis the flip between the you
(18:56):
have a a course, you commit tothat, and then you make a
decision, and then you commit tothat decision. And then so
there's there's 2 there there'sthere's a, a decision phrase, a
very short decision phrase, andthen a commitment phase, it
looks like to me. But I I hadn'tthought of the idea of of, you
(19:17):
know, your, that once you'vemade the decision, then then
burn the boat. Sure. Because ifyou can't if you are in Mexico
or was it Mexico?
Yeah. It was Mexico. Yeah. InQuinta, wasn't it? And Mhmm.
You and you have a an a reallyhard job of of setting up there.
(19:39):
And you keep most likely lookingback at the boats that could
take you back to the stuff youknow. That's gonna take a lot of
energy out there. It's gonnatake a lot of energy out of you.
A lot of focus.
And potentially lead to arebellion in that that crew, you
know. And Right. And I guess thesame thing happens with you and
yourself. If you keep lookingback to past years old or or
(20:02):
past years new even, you know,then you keep looking over the
fence. The grass is alwaysgreener, and it just that's all
taking energy away from what youcould be committing to.
Sure. You know, energy could becommitting to the cost. Is that
the central premise that you'retalking about?
Kenneth Vogt (20:19):
Yeah. And, you know, there's there's another
side to this. The the shadowside of this is when you decide
not to take an option. So let'ssay you you've chosen this
particular path, but if you'llstill leave everything open,
like you say, it's still justit's you can look over your
(20:40):
shoulder and and wistfullywonder what would happen if I do
that instead? Whereas if youdecide, no.
You know, one thing I'm forsure, I'm not gonna do x
anymore. X is no longer anoption for me, And it clarifies
things. It just it just clearsthe air a bit. And sometimes we
look at that and it's like, Iguess I gotta give that up. You
(21:03):
know?
It's a painful loss. Othertimes, it's like, you know, it's
just a distraction. I want thisgone. Yeah. You can you can
choose how you feel about theseoptions.
And and it doesn't mean youdon't have to demonize anything.
You're like, well, that's astupid option. I'm not gonna do
that. And and and that is a aimmoral option. You know, I
(21:26):
can't do that.
And, you know, it's just you'regonna choose. And that's it.
That's where you're gonna gonow. Because that's the new
reality. Reality is where youget to do things.
Other things are just I'm gonnasay just fantasy, but they they
haven't they haven't yet gelledinto reality. And it's, it's not
(21:46):
the same world. You know, thatunmanifest stuff is quite
interesting. And, and it's goodto ponder things. It's good to
contemplate in, you know, in inyour business, you do need to
think outside the box.
And outside the box is outsideof reality. Right? But at some
point, it's you gotta you gottatake that, whatever you gained
(22:07):
from that, and bring it toreality because reality is is
the actual job you have. It'sthe actual assignment you have.
It's the actual experimentyou're doing.
You know, it's something thatthat that could be put on paper
that this is what happened. It'sit is it is gonna become a host
a historical event. And and ifyou don't ever have any history,
(22:31):
you don't have any resume. Youdon't have any resume. You don't
have any future.
Nick Oswald (22:39):
There's a quote. Yeah. Okay. I'm guessing I'm
just trying to think ofexamples, but of where people
will have felt that commitmentand and can feel the difference.
One very simple one is if youlook at those people who are,
you know, those internal studentpeople where they where they
(22:59):
they do a course and then theydo another course.
And then, well, that one wouldbe good. Oh, and then and then
they just collect lots of stage1 experience if you like.
Because they never commit to godeeper into one area. I don't
know what what drives that. It'sjust it it I don't know.
(23:19):
But and and it's not a judgmenton it. It's just that if you
then, you know, everyone on herepresumably has has, done some
level of scientific training andthen decided they're gonna go
deeper down one one line. Andthat that is what then starts to
open up different doors, andactually then that's when you
really start living and movingup to different light. Not start
(23:41):
you're not you're still livingas a student. But that's when
you really start start livingthat journey if you like.
Kenneth Vogt (23:50):
Right. And some things just won't. Your your
your future options won't appearuntil you till you start making
some decisions and move forward.
Nick Oswald (24:02):
Okay.
Kenneth Vogt (24:02):
So right now, you have you have the options you
have, but you're gonna have moreoptions in the future. But only
because you decided on some pastoptions, and it started to take
you down a path. So you can'tjust sit there and wait at the
crossroads and hope that they'regonna build new roads to you.
(24:22):
It's not gonna work like that.Yep.
Yep.
Nick Oswald (24:26):
And I guess, what what are the things that drive
people to not make thosedecisions? It's it's fear of the
unknown. It's, you know, that'sprobably a big one, actually.
Yeah. That's for sure.
Fear of the next step, generallyfear, and or some sort of
uncertainty or indecision in away. Is that Mhmm. Not true?
Kenneth Vogt (24:50):
Yeah. Well, I'm we've all had that experience
our entire lives. They were justmore childish experiences when
we were when we were a child orwhen we were children. But, you
know, the fact is you learn towalk because it never crossed
your mind to not be a walker.You learn to talk because it
(25:12):
never crossed your mind to notbe a talker.
That pattern is already there,it's already built in, and
you've already succeeded at it.The fact that you've gotten as
far as you've gotten in youreducation already says that
you've been choosing among youroptions and taking action. Well,
(25:33):
now just keep going. Now it'sthe next phase. And it's always
been about the unknown.
In fact, the unknown that youdon't have to be afraid of it.
You can be excited about it. Iwanna see the unknown. I wanna
get in there. I wanna I wannasee what's going on.
And and that's where all thejuice in life is gonna come
from. And, yes, sometimes theexperiences will be hard.
(25:54):
Sometimes you will lose, but itdoesn't have to kill you. And
you can protect yourself. You'vegot again, you've gotten this
far and protected yourself tothis to this point.
You you're gonna keep doingthat. You're gonna be alright.
Nick Oswald (26:12):
Yeah. Just a quote to me there actually that, I
always have a a bit of astruggle processing when people
talk about getting in you know,don't stop getting in your own
way. You know? And what we'retalking what you're talking
about there is well, as a child,you don't get in your own way.
You just do it because you don'tyou've got no other frame of
(26:32):
reference.
You don't know what might gowrong. Right? Right. As you as
you become more and more
experienced, you think you knowmore and more of what can go
wrong, and, and that can driveyou to get in your own way of
making the the necessary nextstep of just taking the rest.
And, you know, you see that inpeople who stay in the same
(26:53):
place for a long, long time eventhough it's over ripened for
them.
You know? I like that phrase.But but they've taken they've
taken the path has not becomeoptimal for them, but they're
too scared to make of what mightgo wrong if they make the next
step. And as you say, thatthat's that's where the juice
(27:14):
is, is is looking for, you know,looking for the next I wouldn't
even say the next level. What'sthe next challenge?
You know? And, I'm I'm just abit fascinated by this kind of
this this sort of tensionbetween between looking at the
(27:34):
options and then committing toan option. Because if you're in
the job that you've been in for15 years that is not fulfilling
anymore, that that, you know,you hate everything about it,
but you're too scared to move,then you're playing it like you
you will play it looking at allthe options. You maybe even just
in a kind of fantasy way. Whatwhat's next this mix of the fire
to go this?
(27:54):
Let's take the risk regardless.On the boats, let's see what
happens.
Kenneth Vogt (27:57):
Yeah. I have a friend who is a a
anesthesiologist. So, obviously,she's an MD. She's been doing
this now for 20 some years. Soshe's been through all the
education.
She's now she's had all theexperience, and she got to she's
gotten to the point where she'sthinking, I think I'm done with
(28:19):
this. I don't wanna be I don'twanna be an anesthesiologist
anymore. She still goes to workevery day, does her job. She
very much cares about helpingpeople, but she can feel that
it's time to do somethingdifferent. So, yeah, she's gonna
she's gonna have to jettison allthis investment she's made to
(28:40):
get into where she is now, and Ithink a lot of a lot of
scientists can relate to this.
You put a huge amount ofinvestment into getting getting
your degrees. And now you've ifyou've been in the lab for a
while, you've put in a hugeinvestment there. And what now?
I'm supposed to open up a Subwayrestaurant? You know what?
(29:00):
Why would I do somethingcompletely different? Well, who
knows? Who knows why you woulddo something different? Why you
might make a a lateral shift ora shift with different kind of
work in science, like what Nickdescribed. You know, he was on
the path of being a PI, and allof a sudden that shifted.
And now he's been for theselast, what, 12, 13, 15 years
(29:24):
being a publisher, but inscience. So he didn't he didn't
throw away what he had from thepast. He found a new way to
build on it, but that'ssomething that might not have
been in his awareness at allwhen, you know, he was first
working on getting his his,bachelor of science in biology.
Right? It it only arrived laterafter he continued to choose
(29:49):
among his options.
Nick Oswald (29:52):
Have had a similar journey of going from being a
specialist to, you know, not ageneralist, but going to some
that's not within thatspecialism?
Kenneth Vogt (30:00):
Yeah. That's for sure. And I would have never
guessed that, and I wouldn'thave chosen it earlier in my
career.
Nick Oswald (30:06):
Yeah. Right. The funny thing that that it taught
me this taught me was that Ithought that, being a scientist
is about knowing lots aboutscience. Right? And it isn't.
It's it's about a way ofthinking, and a way of
conducting yourself, and a wayof driving yourself, and you can
(30:26):
use that for lots of otherthings as well. And, you know,
it get it sets you up for a lotof other I keep looking at these
tracks on the screen, actually.It it sets it sets you up to go
down either power down either ofthose tracks that can have
completely differentdestinations. Yeah. Depending on
what you apply it to.
Kenneth Vogt (30:45):
I I like that illustration because the left or
the right, they look the same.There's nothing about in one
path over the other that looksobvious that I obviously, the
the left side is better. No.That's not obvious here at all,
and it won't be obvious untilyou go down the track and see
where it leads.
Nick Oswald (31:07):
Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot there's a lot to this,
actually, and and this is justone angle that you've looked at
here, which is about how do youtake the step, how do you power
such a change and such a how doyou how do you power going deep
into something? And that's it.It's interesting.
Because even though I wouldconsider myself I've gone deep
(31:28):
into some I can still see whereI don't run the bridges. And so,
okay, what can I prune away?What the choices can I prune
away to leave myself withnothing to focus on except going
deep into the most importantparts of it? And that that's
something that everyone caneveryone can take regardless of
what position they're in, Ithink.
Kenneth Vogt (31:48):
Yeah. Options can be a weight on you. You have to
keep managing them. You have tokeep feeding and watering them.
You know?
Or if it's gone, then I have tothink about it again. It's over.
And
Nick Oswald (31:59):
they they feel so safe, though. It feels so nice
and comfort comforting to havethem.
Kenneth Vogt (32:03):
Well, but that's an illusion because they're not
real yet.
Nick Oswald (32:07):
That's true.
Kenneth Vogt (32:08):
The things that are safe are the things that you
have actually put into practice.Now that's the stuff that that's
the stuff that is providingsafety, the possibility of the
future. I mean, I'm not antipossibility. Don't get me wrong
here, but but we have tounderstand that possibilities in
reality are not the same thing.
Nick Oswald (32:29):
Yeah. Motion is the safest way, actually. Yeah.
Yeah. Isn't it?
Motion towards an intention isthe safest way. Oh, there's a
quote. So I'm just thinkingabout when we start working
together, and what I wanted todo was was, you know, you we
work together. You helped mewith to to, stabilize Bite Size
(32:52):
Bio as a business. And and whatI desperately want to do was to
make it safe and make it a levelthat I could understand, and and
it was in a box, and that wasall good.
And one of the things she taughtme very early on is that
standing still is not safe. Youneed to keep you you need to be
moving to an upward trajectory,and that's where the motion is.
(33:12):
It's also where the bumps are,but that's why that's why life
can be challenging. And thenovercoming the challenge, that's
where you get more experienceand all that stuff.
Kenneth Vogt (33:22):
Well, yeah, all you biologists out there, isn't
that one of the ways you assessthat something is alive and
healthy is that it's moving? Ifit's not moving, you wonder if
it's dead. Right?
Nick Oswald (33:33):
Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. No. That's
this went off on a tangentactually, but, it's, I think
that I think it's a great topic,and, and hopefully people get,
get some get some in insight ininto it from yourself because I
think this is literallyapplicable to any any, any
(33:55):
position, anyone in anyposition.
It's that thing of if you lookat someone else and think that
they don't have to, you know, intheir position, they don't have
to burn the bridges and godeeper, then it's because in
order to go deeper and and to tostay stay living that they have
to that the best thing they cando is go deeper then. It's
(34:17):
probably an illusion because youcan't see you you can't it
always looks better when youlook at someone else's life.
And, I think everyone in anyposition can take something from
this and go, how can I make thiseasier on myself by giving
myself less choice?
Kenneth Vogt (34:34):
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Well, I'd say that's a
good, good breaking point, andwe've given people something to
ponder, and we've shown someapplication. So let's see what
y'all do with it in your world.
Nick Oswald (34:51):
Okay, Kane. Thanks for that, wonderful insight. So
hopefully that sparked some,ideas or realisation or
questions for you. And if you,if you have questions that you
would like to ask us about it,you can, do it via the the
contact page on Bite Size Bio orby the Happy Scientist Facebook
(35:14):
page, which is Facebook forwardslash The Happy Scientist
Podcast. And don't forget to goback and look at if you find
this useful, go back and look atour, previous episodes, which
are on, on YouTube, and they areon, your favorite podcast
platform as well.
So until then until next timerather, good luck in your
(35:37):
research and goodbye from all ofus at Bitesize Bio, including
mister Miami.
Kenneth Vogt (35:42):
Okay. Bye
Intro/Outro (35:49):
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