December 4, 2025 • 38 mins
This episode features serial entrepreneur and facilitator Dave Ingram, who shares the pivotal moments that shaped his leadership—from his early landscaping business to building a 25-year executive search firm. Dave talks openly about the hard seasons, including the 2008 downturn, and how peer forums became his anchor for real talk and better decision-making.
We explore what makes forums work: experience sharing instead of advice, confidentiality that creates safety, and the discipline to be fully present. Dave also describes how these habits show up outside the boardroom, like helping runners of all backgrounds access coaches, shoes, support, and a welcoming community—leading to miles logged, new finish lines, and social barriers coming down.
Dave breaks down the craft of facilitation, why sharp questions outperform quick answers, and how frameworks like EOS stick when teams feel truly heard. He also shares how he uses AI as a thought partner without relying on it to replace human connection. If you care about leadership growth, peer learning, and building healthier organizations, this conversation gives you real tools and real hope.
Please visit www.internationalfacilitatorsorganization.com to learn more about Mo Fathelbab and International Facilitators Organization (IFO), a leading provider of facilitators and related group facilitation services, providing training, certification, marketing services, education, and community for peer group facilitators at all stages of their career.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:10):
Welcome to the Heart of Business Podcast, sponsored
by International FacilitatorsOrganization, the Marketplace
for Facilitators.
I'm your host, Mo Fatelbob, andtoday our guest is Dave Ingram,
a serial entrepreneur and a goodfriend and an amazing
facilitator.
Dave, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
Hey, thank you.
Thanks for having me, Mo.
SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
Pleasure to have you.
So, Dave, I want to just getstarted from the beginning.
Tell us about your firstentrepreneurial venture.
I don't know.
Was it painting house numbers onthe on curbs when you're 12?
Was it uh a paper route?
What was the very early seed?
SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
Yeah, so the the earliest significant one was I
started a uh landscaping companyin high school.
And uh it wasn't just anylandscaping company, it's it was
called Big Red.
We named it after a truck, 1956International.
Um, and it was big.
That company we did commercialand residential, we bought
another company and merged itin.
(01:08):
Uh, and then um ended up sellingthat company uh when I graduated
from college.
All right, all right, and thenwhat?
Uh then I went to work for about10 years in the corporate world,
and I worked for some amazingcompanies.
Like the these companies hadworld-class training, they had
(01:30):
world-class development.
Um, and you know, the thecorporate world was great for me
for a lot of things, especiallythe training and such.
Um, but I knew that um itprobably wasn't gonna be my
long-term fit.
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
So then you decided to go back into entrepreneurship
after 10 years of corporate andwhat business did you yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:53):
Yeah, it was kind of a slippery slope because I
started a company, uh, uhexecutive search firm with an
expectation that um I would geta get a uh search and I would
say, hey guys, save your youknow$50,000, I'll take that job.
So I kind of built it as aplaceholder.
Um, but then it really becamereal because I started that
(02:18):
company with a HELOC.
Uh, so I borrowed money and Igot in more and more debt.
And so I had no choice but totake that from a placeholder job
to a real company out of purefinancial necessity.
SPEAKER_00 (02:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And how long did it take youfrom the time you got that
business started to the timewhen you're like, okay, we're
making some money.
I could make a living doingthis.
SPEAKER_01 (02:48):
That's a great question.
Um, you know, about the thirdyear in when I had people other
than me contributing to thesuccess of the business, when it
was just me, it was it was notscalable.
Um, but once I had some peoplethat were contributing to the
success of the company, that'sthat's when I started to kind of
(03:12):
get encouraged, I would say.
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
Yeah.
And I'm just curious, what gaveyou the the inspiration to be an
entrepreneur in the first place?
Was there any entrepreneurshipin your family?
SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
Yeah, no, I I watched my dad.
And uh my dad, I don't want tosay I'm following in his
footsteps, but he spent a lot ofyears in corporate and then he
started his own company.
And I watched the uh the youknow awesomeness and I watched
the pain.
Um, but I figured, you know, ifhe can get out there and do it,
(03:46):
I can go do it.
And it was just part of life,you know.
He would come home some daysreally excited.
He'd come home some days like,wow, the world's ending.
And it just became life to me.
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Did you ever feel that way inyour own business?
The world is ending.
SPEAKER_01 (04:04):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:05):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:07):
Um, you know, I think it's lonely, right?
And you know, if I think ofexamples of the world ending, um
2008 in the financial crisis,right?
2008, 2009, you know, the ironythere was we had become an Inc.
5000 honoree a couple of yearsin a row, but I was worried I
(04:31):
was gonna lose the entirebusiness.
And so the world-ending part ofit for me was having to let go a
lot of really talented peoplethat were counting on this job
and understanding that, youknow, I'm gonna have to let
these guys go or the businesswill go away.
Um, but it's not a great jobmarket, right?
(04:52):
And so that to me isworld-ending, right?
That you know, when I when Ilose my ability to provide an
opportunity for people to make aliving to meet their goals, that
that that's crushing.
Um I've got lots of examples,lots of lots of world-ending
examples.
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
They only make you stronger, right?
SPEAKER_01 (05:11):
They yeah, they do.
SPEAKER_00 (05:12):
I mean, that's where you learn, right?
Absolutely.
So, and why did you choose theuh search business in the first
place?
How did you come to that to thatdecision?
SPEAKER_01 (05:23):
You know, I felt like my strength, first of all,
low barrier to entry, right?
So it it didn't it didn't costme that much to get going.
Um, secondly, my strength hasalways been recruiting great
people around me to make me lookgood.
And so it was natural for me toget into recruiting and sales,
(05:45):
and um no, I I'm I love it.
It's it's a lot of fun.
I get to meet people, I get totalk to them, I get to, you
know, create new jobopportunities for them.
I help companies grow.
I mean, there's it's a lot offun, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
And that company still is going to this day,
yeah?
SPEAKER_01 (06:03):
Companies still going to this day.
We are here's I was justthinking about this.
We are gonna turn 25 years oldin March.
Oh my god.
And there's another thing, crossyour fingers, but I think we're
gonna make our 1000th placementright about the same time that
(06:25):
we turned 25.
SPEAKER_00 (06:27):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01 (06:28):
So I I'm trying to make those two, you know, those
two uh lines cross.
SPEAKER_00 (06:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, congratulations.
That sounds amazing.
And so, Dave, how long ago didyou join the Virginia Council of
CEOs?
SPEAKER_01 (06:42):
Funny you should ask that, Mo.
SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
Yeah, it was August 15th, 2007.
Wow, okay.
So we met shortly thereafter,right?
I would imagine.
SPEAKER_01 (06:52):
No, that that's the day that I met you.
So that that that was when wekicked off the the forum.
SPEAKER_00 (06:58):
Yeah.
And so you joined a forum, anduh let's talk about that a
little bit.
I mean, obviously, our listenersshould know by now that uh forum
is my gym, it's our jam, it'swhy we do what we do because uh
we believe in it so so deeply.
But let's let's just start withuh how did you find out about
the Virginia Council of CEOs andand why did you join?
SPEAKER_01 (07:23):
You know, I don't know how I found out about it.
Probably uh probably DaveGallagher, actually.
Um, because he invited me to alunch at uh Willow Oaks to go
get a kind of get an overview ofwhat the organization does.
Uh and I was in instantly.
Um, you know, I I was 100% onboard for being around people
(07:48):
like me, people who havesimilar, you know, opportunities
and challenges.
Um, because you know, sitting atmy desk all by myself, I didn't
have a lot of support other thanyou know my head spinning.
SPEAKER_00 (08:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so right away, really, youjoined because you wanted to get
into a peer group, a forum.
SPEAKER_01 (08:09):
Correct.
Yeah.
I wanted to be around people whohad this similar challenges to
what I had and see how theysolved them um so that I could
run my business better.
SPEAKER_00 (08:19):
Brilliant.
So you go to forum training, youmeet this uh crazy guy, Mo Fatal
Bob, and uh what was that daylike if you remember?
SPEAKER_01 (08:30):
Uh yes, it was like I've gotta jump in with both
feet because everyone else is.
It was somewhat uncomfortable,but also very liberating,
actually.
Um you know, I didn't I had noreally didn't know what to
(08:51):
expect.
And so when I got there, I said,you know, I'm here, I'm all in,
let's go.
unknown (08:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
And when you look back, you've been in this round
table, perhaps you've been amember of a couple of them over
the years.
How have they helped youbroadly?
Uh, and then maybe what are somespecific examples of where
you've really benefited fromyour uh roundtable?
SPEAKER_01 (09:17):
So, I mean, the the impact of the round table has
been immense.
Like number one, how did itimpact me broadly?
Being able to sit in a room withother people who don't have
anywhere else to go to talkabout the challenges that they
face, right?
You can't talk about youremployees about, you know, a
(09:39):
reorganization necessarily.
Uh, you can't talk to youremployees about how am I going
to make payroll?
You can't talk to your employeesabout so many things that you
know having a group to go to wasjust amazing.
You know, I'll give you aspecific example.
And actually, this is not umthis is not business related.
(10:04):
Um, and and that's the otherthing about the the forum
environment is you know, itreally allows the CEO to be a
human and allows theunderstanding that you know not
many people have the opportunityor burden to make a decision
(10:25):
like, am I gonna hire someoneelse to expand my business or am
I gonna put money in my kids'529 account?
Right?
So the the the challenge ofbeing a human and being a CEO is
really that was difficult.
And every single person in thatroom had the same challenge,
(10:45):
frankly.
And it was nice to be aroundthat.
Um I I've got lots of specificexamples.
I would say the one that Iremember the most a number of
years ago, we were trying toacquire a company, and I really
wanted to do it.
Um, and then you know, some ofthe people in the presentation
process asked me some questionsthat really made me rethink it.
(11:09):
Um and so I then actually wentto my dad, who you know is a
mentor of mine, and you know, hehe's really good at listening
and providing input.
And then, you know, you just getthat look.
And the look is like quit tryingto sell yourself on a bad idea,
right?
Just do it.
Did that answer your question?
(11:29):
So it's it's a combination ofall the above, right?
The the forum helped me centerand understand the real issue.
They provided some insight andshared some experiences uh that
allowed me to go deeper and andmake a good decision.
SPEAKER_00 (11:43):
And what would you say the forum effect is if you
were asked, what's the forumeffect?
How has it affected the membersof your group?
How has it affected thecommunity within uh the Virginia
Council, the CEOs, and maybeother organizations that you've
seen?
What's the effect?
SPEAKER_01 (12:04):
Well, one is it teaches a set of skills that
become lifetime skills, right?
So as an individual, the effectis understanding this concept of
gestalt and experience sharingand how that can work in every
(12:24):
phase of your life, not justyour business, right?
I use it with my kids, I use itwith my wife.
There, they all get sick of mesaying, here's my experience,
they all want the answer.
So that's an effect of of theforum on my life.
The effect of it in um, youknow, for my round table, it was
(12:44):
that place where you know we allshowed up every meeting because
you had to, and you wereexpected to be able to
contribute because peopleexpected you to be there.
Um and we knew that we were allthere for each other, this
concept of mutual assuredsuccess, this concept of being
(13:05):
able to be vulnerable and not bejudged, this concept that you
can say something that'sconfidential and have 100%
confidence that it's going toremain confidential.
And so I think that, and and Ijust think over the years,
watching the people go throughthe presentations, make good
decisions, and grow theircompanies, um, you know, that's
(13:27):
an effect.
But also, you know, my a lot ofmy world revolves around
community.
And the CEO council is acommunity, and it's kind of like
an oasis where you know you cango somewhere and you're you're
not the only person on thatisland.
There's a whole bunch of peopleon that island with you, and
(13:48):
just the confidence and theopportunities that it represents
to meet sharp people and toprovide you know meaningful uh
experience shares so people canmake good decisions.
Did that answer the question foryou, Mo?
SPEAKER_00 (14:02):
Beautifully, beautifully, thank you.
Yes, absolutely.
So you uh talked about theimportance of community, and I
know that has meaning to you,not just in the community of
entrepreneurs, but uh as anexample with with other things
in your life.
Uh, I'm gonna let you talk aboutthat.
And and what other ways havehave you leaned into this
(14:22):
concept of community?
SPEAKER_01 (14:25):
So I am a runner, and a number of years ago, I
dropped my daughter off for avoice lesson.
It was about 35 degrees andblowing.
It was cold, and I just I didn'thave time to go home, so I
decided to go for a run.
And I was running down uh GroveAvenue in Richmond, and I saw
(14:47):
this group of people running andlaughing and having fun.
And they said, Hey, why don'tyou join us?
And so I did, and I kept joiningthem.
It was a free run group uhdesigned to uh just bring people
together coming out of thepandemic, and you know, that
organization has been uh I can'tmeasure the positive impact of
(15:11):
it because it's been so great.
And essentially what we do inthat organization is we break
barriers, you know.
We you know, our core values areconnecting, contributing, and
conquering.
And so we connect people who arein groups of people that they
never thought they'd be around.
Um, we build community, we justalso happen to run.
(15:35):
And so two weeks ago, we hadover 200 people participate in
the series of races around theRichmond Marathon.
And I would say probably half ofthose people had never actually
run a race.
So it's the first time thatspecific community is 70% women
(15:57):
and 72% BIPOC.
So if someone comes and trainswith us, we'll provide shoes for
them, we'll provide coaches forthem, we'll provide nutrition,
we'll provide support.
We're gonna help those peopleget where they need to go if
they're committed to it,obviously.
SPEAKER_00 (16:14):
Yeah.
And and tell me why uh that'smeaningful to you.
SPEAKER_01 (16:21):
Um, you know, I'm not gonna be around forever.
And so, you know, how how can Imake a better mark on this world
and be a part of the solution,right?
You know, I I think you know, mymy facilitation skills and
experience actually help me inthat group, um, because in a lot
(16:43):
of ways they speak a differentlanguage than I'm used to.
And um I have the ability tohelp them.
You know, we we created a board,I'm on the board, and um
actually we have a strategicannual strategic planning
meeting tonight to get ready fornext year.
Um, but you know, that grouplast year we covered about
(17:06):
45,000 miles together.
And if you run or you exercisewith people, you know that you
get to know people, and the thebarriers fall down to relate to
building relationships.
Yeah, and so it's just it's justsuch a pure place of of just
joy, love, and support.
SPEAKER_00 (17:28):
Kind of like a peer group.
That's what I was wondering.
Yeah, yeah.
Um so you mentionedfacilitation, and uh after many,
many years as as a member of aforum, uh you decided to step
into facilitating forums and uhand came to our certification
(17:49):
class and have been doingamazing work with us for uh a
couple of years now with IFO.
Uh I'm curious, uh, first, uh,what made you decide to get into
the facilitation work?
And uh second, what it's meantto you and and how you feel
about this work compared to yourexecutive search work.
SPEAKER_01 (18:10):
Um, so why did I get into facilitation?
I kind of fell into it.
Um, I don't know if you rememberthat day back in 2007, but I was
the first roundtable leader.
And so, you know, it it came atme hard.
Um, so I was very comfortablewith it and I knew the system.
(18:33):
Um, and then I kind ofvolunteered for it um because it
it I don't know, you get to apoint where doing stuff isn't
work.
Like I don't have to do thatmuch preparation for it.
Like it's I've been doing itlong enough that I know I can
walk in a room and positivelyimpact people and help them sort
(18:56):
things out.
Um, and so I just I love it.
Like it's it's so much fun.
I get to meet amazing people.
Um, you know, I've I don't knowhow many days of facilitation I
have under me, but you know, thethe ability to be around just
really sharp people who aregoing out and being part of the
(19:19):
solution of creating jobs,that's exciting to me.
SPEAKER_00 (19:23):
And when you do the facilitation work and you help
people kind of uh figure thingsout and and have a meaningful uh
maybe transformation, uh, whatdoes it feel like for you at the
end of the day?
SPEAKER_01 (19:39):
You know, it's the you know, we do the one word
open and the one word close,right?
And so after a presentation andthe one word close, I bet
seventy percent of the time, myword is gratitude.
SPEAKER_02 (19:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
And just the gratitude for the opportunity,
gratitude for this group ofpeople.
Um just that I mean that's isvery gratifying to be in a group
like that, and even moregratifying if we can solve a big
problem.
SPEAKER_00 (20:14):
Yeah, feels good.
It feels good.
And so is it more gratifyingthan executive search work?
That's a hard question toanswer.
I'll let you I'll let you parsethat however you like.
SPEAKER_01 (20:27):
You know, the executive search work, I mean,
if I if I look at itstatistically, you know, the
average placement that we'vemade has given about a 12%
salary increase to people.
Right?
So that's pretty gratifying.
SPEAKER_02 (20:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:42):
Right.
You know, I'm I'm helping thesepeople, you know, meet their
goals, um, and making the matchso a company can grow.
I mean, that those are twothings, right?
When the companies grow and theCEOs grow, you know, that that
raises the community aroundthem.
And so I don't I don't know ifit's any more or less.
(21:04):
Um, they're both just ingrainedparts of my life.
SPEAKER_00 (21:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think that makes perfectsense.
And uh, I could see how theythey have uh a different uh
added addition, so to speak, adifferent benefit to you.
Yeah, yeah, I think that'sgreat.
Um, so Dave, let's talk about umthe the the next 10 years.
What do you foresee in thisworld of of AI and increased EQ
(21:30):
awareness and increased uhunderstanding of the importance
of vulnerability?
How do you see all that comingtogether?
SPEAKER_01 (21:38):
So AI is here, um, is not going anywhere.
And you know, my view on it isI'm gonna learn it and I'm gonna
make that a strategic strengthof mine.
You know, I it's it's a storm,right?
It feels like a storm sometimesis how much stuff is coming at
(22:02):
me, and um, you know, in astorm, you don't necessarily get
through it by hunkering down.
Sometimes you just gotta walkthrough it.
And, you know, I think that, youknow, AI is my thought partner,
and um, I use it all the time.
Um I don't feel like I don't seea path to it being able to do
(22:29):
the type of facilitation workthat we do.
You know, when you're in personor even virtually with a group
of people, there's so muchhidden nuance.
There are you know body gesturesthat happen, there are smiles,
there are frowns, there arerolling of the eyes.
(22:49):
Um, I don't see it replacing thethe facilitation work.
Where it does help is, you know,preparation and thought and
those types of things.
But you know, a lot of the thething about AI is you've got to
be able to take theconversations and make sense of
(23:13):
them.
And you know, I use differenttools every day to record
different types of things, butlet me tell you what's not
allowed in a forum is any typeof recording information or
tools, right?
Right, right.
So you still gotta be a human inthat scenario.
Um did that that provide alittle bit of insight?
SPEAKER_00 (23:38):
Yeah, yeah.
I listen, I mean, I think uhyou're right on.
I have seen some rudimentarytools that do some basic
facilitation.
Yeah.
Uh, but I do ask myself thequestion all the time, both as a
business owner and as apractitioner, will this
technology actually, you know,get to get to the point where we
can uh use it for uh you knowthe masses?
(24:01):
Because as you know, uh I have avery, very uh lofty goal of
getting a billion people in peergroups by 2053.
And if I think about our currentuh model with facilitators and
the price of the facilitatorsand and really hand holding
people through this, uh I wonderuh if we if we can somehow uh
(24:24):
use AI to scale a bit faster, uhnot having to rely on on
facilitators.
SPEAKER_01 (24:30):
So I think that where the tool will be most
useful is in lead generation andtelling the story, right?
I don't I don't think it's gonnareplace facilitators, but there
are certainly things that youcan do to create bots and create
um, you know, interactive Q ⁇ Atype of things.
(24:50):
Um, you know, have you ever feltlike you're alone on an island
and being the only one whoactually cared about the success
of your business?
Right.
So the ability to get to peopleand to ask those questions in
mass, I feel like that'll help alot.
Um I don't I don't haveconfidence in the facilitation,
the the AI's ability to do that.
(25:12):
I do have confidence in AI'sability to do a whole bunch of
other things, and and that'swhat I use it for.
So it's a really amazing toolset that's out there that's just
getting better every day.
But just reading a room andwatching how people interact, I
(25:32):
think it's gonna, I guess it'sgonna be a long time before the
AI tools get there, especiallyin mass.
SPEAKER_00 (25:39):
You'd have to have a camera on each person.
That camera would have to readtheir emotions, that camera
would have to have some sometechnology behind it from from
uh you know that's a whole lotof stuff to read.
That's a lot of that's a lot ofbody language to read.
SPEAKER_01 (25:58):
Yeah, and you know, it's when to call on the person
who's got their arms crossed,right?
So, like someone's gotta pullthem in.
I mean, if there's if there areways that I can use it to become
better at anything I do,facilitation, whatever the case
may be, I want to learn it.
Um, I just haven't found itpractical in that environment.
(26:22):
What I do find it practical inis telling me different ways to
ask questions.
Right?
So, hey, I'm going into thisgroup, you know,
vulnerability-based trust.
What are three to five questionsthat I could ask the group that
might bring out some reactions?
So, you know, those are theareas that I'm using it now.
Um, but it just doesn't replacethe human.
(26:46):
Doesn't replace the human.
Maybe AI can ask questions thatbring tears in a positive way.
But I I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
Yeah.
So vulnerability is one of thosethings that uh you and I uh talk
about and and practice and anduh lean into.
Uh and some people obviously arequite scared of it, and often
uh, you know, the the generalunderstanding is you don't want
to be vulnerable.
Uh but for us it has a differentmeaning and a different
(27:19):
connotation.
Can you speak to that a littlebit from your perspective?
SPEAKER_01 (27:24):
Yeah, I think um vulnerability.
I mean, I got the term from you,you got it from a Stanford
professor.
Like vulnerability is thecurrency of relationships.
And I think that I'm socomfortable with it because I
(27:44):
have to do it every day, and Ihave complete confidence that
the people in the room are thereto support each other, this
mutual assured success.
You know, I don't know that, youknow, I was brought up to cry
to, hey, it's okay to cry,right?
Um, you know, I had an amazingfamily, and you know, I was
(28:07):
probably luckier than a lot ofpeople, but a lot of people that
I've worked with in thatenvironment, they've never had
the the license to just let itall hang out.
SPEAKER_02 (28:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:21):
And so it becomes a natural protective thing to not
be vulnerable, right?
Um so it's a new muscle thatpeople have to learn to use.
And the only way that I know todo that is put them in an
environment where that behavioris mirrored so they feel
(28:45):
comfortable, you know, becomingvulnerable and comfortable, you
know, exhibiting trust that, youknow, historically, they didn't
have that channel, that room,for example.
Um, but I see it, I see thebenefits of it every time it
(29:05):
happens.
You know, it's it's it's just soamazing to see the relief on
people's face when they're ableto come in and share something
that's just been bothering themthat they had nowhere else to
share it.
And then, you know, you just seethe weight lift from them.
You see the the stressevaporate.
And, you know, I think once youfeel that once, you want it
(29:30):
again.
And again, you know, it's it'sthe type of thing that um it's
really it's really gratifyingand exciting for me to see it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:40):
It is, it is.
I have to agree with that.
So let's talk about yourfacilitation work.
What are the various kinds offacilitations that you do at
this at this day and age?
SPEAKER_01 (29:51):
Yeah, so it's it's pretty much I mean, whether I'm
facilitating a uh a direct hire,yeah, I don't actually work in
that business very much rightnow.
I've got someone who runs thatfor me and she's amazing, but
that's just facilitating gettingtwo people on the same page or a
person in a company on the samepage.
(30:12):
You know, facilitating the forumwork is amazing.
You know, everything I do isaround people, process, and
sales, right?
So people facilitation that isdoing the forum work, that's
doing the executive search work,those types of things.
Process facilitation is, youknow, I'm an EOS implementer, so
entrepreneurial operatingsystem.
(30:33):
That's all facilitation.
Um, and you know, the I'm amazedhow the answer is always in the
room, and the facilitator's jobis not to provide that answer,
but to ask questions so thoseteams can get to that answer.
And so that that's a greatexample of facilitation skills.
Um, you know, facilitationskills as it relates to um
(30:57):
revenue growth, right?
So three distinctly differentofferings, right?
And so that's the outgrowoffering, which creates 15 to 30
percent increased predictablerevenue growth.
That's facilitation uh to getpeople to understand that if
they swing the bat, they'regonna hit the ball occasionally.
(31:20):
And wow, when you hit that ball,it feels so good.
But if you don't swing the bat,and I can't facilitate to a
point that they they do that,they're not gonna have that
feeling of you know hitting theball, you know, in the sweet
spot and watching it sail overthe fence.
SPEAKER_00 (31:37):
You're a golfer too, I understand, right?
SPEAKER_01 (31:40):
Yes.
Um sometimes I'm a pretty goodgolfer, sometimes I'm a bad
golfer, but yes, I love playinggolf.
SPEAKER_00 (31:48):
How do you cope with the days that uh your golf game
is not what you hoped for?
SPEAKER_01 (31:56):
So I don't take myself very seriously.
Um and actually I had one ofthose rounds a couple weeks ago,
and I was playing with some guysthat I'd never met before who
were good golfers, and I justcouldn't pull it together.
Like I just couldn't do it, andum so I kind of laughed it off,
(32:17):
probably nervous after in thebeginning, because I was a
little embarrassed.
And then on the back nine, Idecided to change things up and
I turned on my speaker andcranked up some music, you know,
to try to get get a littleenergy, get me in the rhythm.
Yeah, and about halfway throughthe back nine, I was still
performing so poorly, and one ofthe guys looked at me and he
(32:38):
goes, Sometimes it's just notyour day.
And I'm like, you know, itwasn't my day that day, but it
was a fantastic day.
It was beautiful.
We walked the golf course, wegot exercise, I got to meet new
people, you know.
That was I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (32:55):
Yeah, that's how I think of it.
I'm lucky to be outside withsome wonderful people, getting
some exercise, doing something Ilove.
SPEAKER_01 (33:04):
But I can't control every shot, can I?
Yeah, no.
I mean, you got the golf journeycoming, right?
We need to get together andhopefully we can pull our A
games together.
But if not, I can tell you we'llhave a good time.
All right, all right.
SPEAKER_00 (33:17):
I look forward to it.
Uh, Dave, what are um one or twobooks that have really meant
something to you?
And what did you take from eachof them?
SPEAKER_01 (33:27):
So um Bo Burlingham wrote a book called Small
Giants.
And, you know, his definitionthat you don't have to be big to
be great, and the concept ofwhen you lose the ability to
make an exception, you may havelost the personal connection to
(33:48):
people in an organization.
Um, so that one was amazing.
Um Stephen Covey, you know, TheSeven Habits.
Classic.
I I think about that book, youknow, and I think about that
scene in that book where itdescribes sitting in the back of
a church at a funeral andwatching a peer, watching a
(34:10):
family member, watching acommunity member, and you
realize that it's actually yourfuneral, and what are those
people gonna be saying aboutyou?
Um Pat Lincioni's FiveDysfunctions of a Team.
SPEAKER_02 (34:22):
And they're great.
SPEAKER_01 (34:23):
It's all about you know, how can we leverage this
trust to build a betterperforming organization?
And um, you know, I think manycompanies are really good at
being smart and not as good atbeing healthy, and healthy is
that strategic synergisticadvantage that that when
(34:47):
companies can get there, theyreally do well and feel good
doing it.
SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
I love that.
I love that.
Uh so Dave, as you look ahead,what do you think the impact is
when we get to a billion peoplein peer groups?
Like, think about the globalimpact of a billion people
really leaning into thismethodology, leaning into having
uh a powerful support structure,leaning into learning our
(35:15):
important language of notgeneralizing and judging and and
all of that, all of thatwonderful stuff that we do.
What do you think the impact ison a global level?
SPEAKER_01 (35:24):
I think we'd have a lot less people yelling at
screaming at each other and alot more people listening to
each other.
You know, we we have a uhcommunication, you know, let's
let's go back to with thequestion that you asked.
Hey, you know, sometimes you getpeople in who aren't used to
this type of communication,right?
To allow themselves to bevulnerable.
(35:46):
You know, if I just look at theenvironment and look at all the
people who are are doing 90%talking and 10% listening.
And, you know, when we createthis environment for this
billion people, we're gonnateach them how to listen and how
to process and how to listen tosomeone else like they may be
(36:06):
right.
Right.
So I I see not only an impact onthe individuals, but I see a
significant cultural impact whenpeople can have you know honest
discussions about things thatthey disagree with without you
know trying to beat each otherup.
I don't want to make it thatsimple, but it's kind of that
(36:28):
simple to me.
SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
Listen, you're you're preaching to the choir,
and uh, I couldn't have said itany better, but I agree with you
uh a thousand percent, and anduh hopefully we can make that
happen someday.
Uh Dave, any last coming up ornow?
That's right, maybe sooner thanwe expect.
I love that.
Um, Dave, any last uh words ofwisdom advice?
(36:51):
Not advice, that was a trickquestion.
SPEAKER_01 (36:57):
Uh I don't know.
I mean, I would like to thankyou because you introduced me to
this opportunity, right?
And you have been an amazingsupport and mentor over the
years.
And truly, I wouldn't, I don'tthink I would be mentally and
(37:18):
kind of spiritually where I amif I hadn't come across this
work.
So thank you, Mo.
Um my experience share would beif you have the opportunity to
get in a forum or a peer group,do it.
Uh, don't, you know, don't delaybecause there's so much
awesomeness available to youthere.
SPEAKER_00 (37:39):
And actually, one last question.
What has been your experience uhas a member of IFO,
International FacilitatorsOrganization?
What has been your experiencelike?
SPEAKER_01 (37:49):
You know, I think going on a retreat with people
who have already developed theconfidence and vulnerability and
how quickly you can really solvedeep problems.
Right.
Um, so the IFO retreat wasunbelievable.
(38:11):
And just think about all thepeople I've met along the way.
I mean, there's some trulyamazing people.
And if I can keep surroundingmyself with truly amazing
people, I win.
SPEAKER_00 (38:22):
Well said.
Dave Ingram, thank you verymuch.
Thank you to our audience.
And as a reminder, podcastreviews have a real impact on a
podcast's visibility.
So please leave a review to helpothers find the show.
Uh, finally, you could find allour episodes on our website at
International FacilitatorsOrganization.com.
Thank you for listening and havea great day.
Welcome to the Heart of Business Podcast, sponsored
by International FacilitatorsOrganization, the Marketplace
for Facilitators.
I'm your host, Mo Fatelbob, andtoday our guest is Dave Ingram,
a serial entrepreneur and a goodfriend and an amazing
facilitator.
Dave, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
Hey, thank you.
Thanks for having me, Mo.
SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
Pleasure to have you.
So, Dave, I want to just getstarted from the beginning.
Tell us about your firstentrepreneurial venture.
I don't know.
Was it painting house numbers onthe on curbs when you're 12?
Was it uh a paper route?
What was the very early seed?
SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
Yeah, so the the earliest significant one was I
started a uh landscaping companyin high school.
And uh it wasn't just anylandscaping company, it's it was
called Big Red.
We named it after a truck, 1956International.
Um, and it was big.
That company we did commercialand residential, we bought
another company and merged itin.
(01:08):
Uh, and then um ended up sellingthat company uh when I graduated
from college.
All right, all right, and thenwhat?
Uh then I went to work for about10 years in the corporate world,
and I worked for some amazingcompanies.
Like the these companies hadworld-class training, they had
(01:30):
world-class development.
Um, and you know, the thecorporate world was great for me
for a lot of things, especiallythe training and such.
Um, but I knew that um itprobably wasn't gonna be my
long-term fit.
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
So then you decided to go back into entrepreneurship
after 10 years of corporate andwhat business did you yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:53):
Yeah, it was kind of a slippery slope because I
started a company, uh, uhexecutive search firm with an
expectation that um I would geta get a uh search and I would
say, hey guys, save your youknow$50,000, I'll take that job.
So I kind of built it as aplaceholder.
Um, but then it really becamereal because I started that
(02:18):
company with a HELOC.
Uh, so I borrowed money and Igot in more and more debt.
And so I had no choice but totake that from a placeholder job
to a real company out of purefinancial necessity.
SPEAKER_00 (02:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And how long did it take youfrom the time you got that
business started to the timewhen you're like, okay, we're
making some money.
I could make a living doingthis.
SPEAKER_01 (02:48):
That's a great question.
Um, you know, about the thirdyear in when I had people other
than me contributing to thesuccess of the business, when it
was just me, it was it was notscalable.
Um, but once I had some peoplethat were contributing to the
success of the company, that'sthat's when I started to kind of
(03:12):
get encouraged, I would say.
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
Yeah.
And I'm just curious, what gaveyou the the inspiration to be an
entrepreneur in the first place?
Was there any entrepreneurshipin your family?
SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
Yeah, no, I I watched my dad.
And uh my dad, I don't want tosay I'm following in his
footsteps, but he spent a lot ofyears in corporate and then he
started his own company.
And I watched the uh the youknow awesomeness and I watched
the pain.
Um, but I figured, you know, ifhe can get out there and do it,
(03:46):
I can go do it.
And it was just part of life,you know.
He would come home some daysreally excited.
He'd come home some days like,wow, the world's ending.
And it just became life to me.
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Did you ever feel that way inyour own business?
The world is ending.
SPEAKER_01 (04:04):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:05):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:07):
Um, you know, I think it's lonely, right?
And you know, if I think ofexamples of the world ending, um
2008 in the financial crisis,right?
2008, 2009, you know, the ironythere was we had become an Inc.
5000 honoree a couple of yearsin a row, but I was worried I
(04:31):
was gonna lose the entirebusiness.
And so the world-ending part ofit for me was having to let go a
lot of really talented peoplethat were counting on this job
and understanding that, youknow, I'm gonna have to let
these guys go or the businesswill go away.
Um, but it's not a great jobmarket, right?
(04:52):
And so that to me isworld-ending, right?
That you know, when I when Ilose my ability to provide an
opportunity for people to make aliving to meet their goals, that
that that's crushing.
Um I've got lots of examples,lots of lots of world-ending
examples.
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
They only make you stronger, right?
SPEAKER_01 (05:11):
They yeah, they do.
SPEAKER_00 (05:12):
I mean, that's where you learn, right?
Absolutely.
So, and why did you choose theuh search business in the first
place?
How did you come to that to thatdecision?
SPEAKER_01 (05:23):
You know, I felt like my strength, first of all,
low barrier to entry, right?
So it it didn't it didn't costme that much to get going.
Um, secondly, my strength hasalways been recruiting great
people around me to make me lookgood.
And so it was natural for me toget into recruiting and sales,
(05:45):
and um no, I I'm I love it.
It's it's a lot of fun.
I get to meet people, I get totalk to them, I get to, you
know, create new jobopportunities for them.
I help companies grow.
I mean, there's it's a lot offun, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
And that company still is going to this day,
yeah?
SPEAKER_01 (06:03):
Companies still going to this day.
We are here's I was justthinking about this.
We are gonna turn 25 years oldin March.
Oh my god.
And there's another thing, crossyour fingers, but I think we're
gonna make our 1000th placementright about the same time that
(06:25):
we turned 25.
SPEAKER_00 (06:27):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01 (06:28):
So I I'm trying to make those two, you know, those
two uh lines cross.
SPEAKER_00 (06:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, congratulations.
That sounds amazing.
And so, Dave, how long ago didyou join the Virginia Council of
CEOs?
SPEAKER_01 (06:42):
Funny you should ask that, Mo.
SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
Yeah, it was August 15th, 2007.
Wow, okay.
So we met shortly thereafter,right?
I would imagine.
SPEAKER_01 (06:52):
No, that that's the day that I met you.
So that that that was when wekicked off the the forum.
SPEAKER_00 (06:58):
Yeah.
And so you joined a forum, anduh let's talk about that a
little bit.
I mean, obviously, our listenersshould know by now that uh forum
is my gym, it's our jam, it'swhy we do what we do because uh
we believe in it so so deeply.
But let's let's just start withuh how did you find out about
the Virginia Council of CEOs andand why did you join?
SPEAKER_01 (07:23):
You know, I don't know how I found out about it.
Probably uh probably DaveGallagher, actually.
Um, because he invited me to alunch at uh Willow Oaks to go
get a kind of get an overview ofwhat the organization does.
Uh and I was in instantly.
Um, you know, I I was 100% onboard for being around people
(07:48):
like me, people who havesimilar, you know, opportunities
and challenges.
Um, because you know, sitting atmy desk all by myself, I didn't
have a lot of support other thanyou know my head spinning.
SPEAKER_00 (08:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so right away, really, youjoined because you wanted to get
into a peer group, a forum.
SPEAKER_01 (08:09):
Correct.
Yeah.
I wanted to be around people whohad this similar challenges to
what I had and see how theysolved them um so that I could
run my business better.
SPEAKER_00 (08:19):
Brilliant.
So you go to forum training, youmeet this uh crazy guy, Mo Fatal
Bob, and uh what was that daylike if you remember?
SPEAKER_01 (08:30):
Uh yes, it was like I've gotta jump in with both
feet because everyone else is.
It was somewhat uncomfortable,but also very liberating,
actually.
Um you know, I didn't I had noreally didn't know what to
(08:51):
expect.
And so when I got there, I said,you know, I'm here, I'm all in,
let's go.
unknown (08:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
And when you look back, you've been in this round
table, perhaps you've been amember of a couple of them over
the years.
How have they helped youbroadly?
Uh, and then maybe what are somespecific examples of where
you've really benefited fromyour uh roundtable?
SPEAKER_01 (09:17):
So, I mean, the the impact of the round table has
been immense.
Like number one, how did itimpact me broadly?
Being able to sit in a room withother people who don't have
anywhere else to go to talkabout the challenges that they
face, right?
You can't talk about youremployees about, you know, a
(09:39):
reorganization necessarily.
Uh, you can't talk to youremployees about how am I going
to make payroll?
You can't talk to your employeesabout so many things that you
know having a group to go to wasjust amazing.
You know, I'll give you aspecific example.
And actually, this is not umthis is not business related.
(10:04):
Um, and and that's the otherthing about the the forum
environment is you know, itreally allows the CEO to be a
human and allows theunderstanding that you know not
many people have the opportunityor burden to make a decision
(10:25):
like, am I gonna hire someoneelse to expand my business or am
I gonna put money in my kids'529 account?
Right?
So the the the challenge ofbeing a human and being a CEO is
really that was difficult.
And every single person in thatroom had the same challenge,
(10:45):
frankly.
And it was nice to be aroundthat.
Um I I've got lots of specificexamples.
I would say the one that Iremember the most a number of
years ago, we were trying toacquire a company, and I really
wanted to do it.
Um, and then you know, some ofthe people in the presentation
process asked me some questionsthat really made me rethink it.
(11:09):
Um and so I then actually wentto my dad, who you know is a
mentor of mine, and you know, hehe's really good at listening
and providing input.
And then, you know, you just getthat look.
And the look is like quit tryingto sell yourself on a bad idea,
right?
Just do it.
Did that answer your question?
(11:29):
So it's it's a combination ofall the above, right?
The the forum helped me centerand understand the real issue.
They provided some insight andshared some experiences uh that
allowed me to go deeper and andmake a good decision.
SPEAKER_00 (11:43):
And what would you say the forum effect is if you
were asked, what's the forumeffect?
How has it affected the membersof your group?
How has it affected thecommunity within uh the Virginia
Council, the CEOs, and maybeother organizations that you've
seen?
What's the effect?
SPEAKER_01 (12:04):
Well, one is it teaches a set of skills that
become lifetime skills, right?
So as an individual, the effectis understanding this concept of
gestalt and experience sharingand how that can work in every
(12:24):
phase of your life, not justyour business, right?
I use it with my kids, I use itwith my wife.
There, they all get sick of mesaying, here's my experience,
they all want the answer.
So that's an effect of of theforum on my life.
The effect of it in um, youknow, for my round table, it was
(12:44):
that place where you know we allshowed up every meeting because
you had to, and you wereexpected to be able to
contribute because peopleexpected you to be there.
Um and we knew that we were allthere for each other, this
concept of mutual assuredsuccess, this concept of being
(13:05):
able to be vulnerable and not bejudged, this concept that you
can say something that'sconfidential and have 100%
confidence that it's going toremain confidential.
And so I think that, and and Ijust think over the years,
watching the people go throughthe presentations, make good
decisions, and grow theircompanies, um, you know, that's
(13:27):
an effect.
But also, you know, my a lot ofmy world revolves around
community.
And the CEO council is acommunity, and it's kind of like
an oasis where you know you cango somewhere and you're you're
not the only person on thatisland.
There's a whole bunch of peopleon that island with you, and
(13:48):
just the confidence and theopportunities that it represents
to meet sharp people and toprovide you know meaningful uh
experience shares so people canmake good decisions.
Did that answer the question foryou, Mo?
SPEAKER_00 (14:02):
Beautifully, beautifully, thank you.
Yes, absolutely.
So you uh talked about theimportance of community, and I
know that has meaning to you,not just in the community of
entrepreneurs, but uh as anexample with with other things
in your life.
Uh, I'm gonna let you talk aboutthat.
And and what other ways havehave you leaned into this
(14:22):
concept of community?
SPEAKER_01 (14:25):
So I am a runner, and a number of years ago, I
dropped my daughter off for avoice lesson.
It was about 35 degrees andblowing.
It was cold, and I just I didn'thave time to go home, so I
decided to go for a run.
And I was running down uh GroveAvenue in Richmond, and I saw
(14:47):
this group of people running andlaughing and having fun.
And they said, Hey, why don'tyou join us?
And so I did, and I kept joiningthem.
It was a free run group uhdesigned to uh just bring people
together coming out of thepandemic, and you know, that
organization has been uh I can'tmeasure the positive impact of
(15:11):
it because it's been so great.
And essentially what we do inthat organization is we break
barriers, you know.
We you know, our core values areconnecting, contributing, and
conquering.
And so we connect people who arein groups of people that they
never thought they'd be around.
Um, we build community, we justalso happen to run.
(15:35):
And so two weeks ago, we hadover 200 people participate in
the series of races around theRichmond Marathon.
And I would say probably half ofthose people had never actually
run a race.
So it's the first time thatspecific community is 70% women
(15:57):
and 72% BIPOC.
So if someone comes and trainswith us, we'll provide shoes for
them, we'll provide coaches forthem, we'll provide nutrition,
we'll provide support.
We're gonna help those peopleget where they need to go if
they're committed to it,obviously.
SPEAKER_00 (16:14):
Yeah.
And and tell me why uh that'smeaningful to you.
SPEAKER_01 (16:21):
Um, you know, I'm not gonna be around forever.
And so, you know, how how can Imake a better mark on this world
and be a part of the solution,right?
You know, I I think you know, mymy facilitation skills and
experience actually help me inthat group, um, because in a lot
(16:43):
of ways they speak a differentlanguage than I'm used to.
And um I have the ability tohelp them.
You know, we we created a board,I'm on the board, and um
actually we have a strategicannual strategic planning
meeting tonight to get ready fornext year.
Um, but you know, that grouplast year we covered about
(17:06):
45,000 miles together.
And if you run or you exercisewith people, you know that you
get to know people, and the thebarriers fall down to relate to
building relationships.
Yeah, and so it's just it's justsuch a pure place of of just
joy, love, and support.
SPEAKER_00 (17:28):
Kind of like a peer group.
That's what I was wondering.
Yeah, yeah.
Um so you mentionedfacilitation, and uh after many,
many years as as a member of aforum, uh you decided to step
into facilitating forums and uhand came to our certification
(17:49):
class and have been doingamazing work with us for uh a
couple of years now with IFO.
Uh I'm curious, uh, first, uh,what made you decide to get into
the facilitation work?
And uh second, what it's meantto you and and how you feel
about this work compared to yourexecutive search work.
SPEAKER_01 (18:10):
Um, so why did I get into facilitation?
I kind of fell into it.
Um, I don't know if you rememberthat day back in 2007, but I was
the first roundtable leader.
And so, you know, it it came atme hard.
Um, so I was very comfortablewith it and I knew the system.
(18:33):
Um, and then I kind ofvolunteered for it um because it
it I don't know, you get to apoint where doing stuff isn't
work.
Like I don't have to do thatmuch preparation for it.
Like it's I've been doing itlong enough that I know I can
walk in a room and positivelyimpact people and help them sort
(18:56):
things out.
Um, and so I just I love it.
Like it's it's so much fun.
I get to meet amazing people.
Um, you know, I've I don't knowhow many days of facilitation I
have under me, but you know, thethe ability to be around just
really sharp people who aregoing out and being part of the
(19:19):
solution of creating jobs,that's exciting to me.
SPEAKER_00 (19:23):
And when you do the facilitation work and you help
people kind of uh figure thingsout and and have a meaningful uh
maybe transformation, uh, whatdoes it feel like for you at the
end of the day?
SPEAKER_01 (19:39):
You know, it's the you know, we do the one word
open and the one word close,right?
And so after a presentation andthe one word close, I bet
seventy percent of the time, myword is gratitude.
SPEAKER_02 (19:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
And just the gratitude for the opportunity,
gratitude for this group ofpeople.
Um just that I mean that's isvery gratifying to be in a group
like that, and even moregratifying if we can solve a big
problem.
SPEAKER_00 (20:14):
Yeah, feels good.
It feels good.
And so is it more gratifyingthan executive search work?
That's a hard question toanswer.
I'll let you I'll let you parsethat however you like.
SPEAKER_01 (20:27):
You know, the executive search work, I mean,
if I if I look at itstatistically, you know, the
average placement that we'vemade has given about a 12%
salary increase to people.
Right?
So that's pretty gratifying.
SPEAKER_02 (20:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:42):
Right.
You know, I'm I'm helping thesepeople, you know, meet their
goals, um, and making the matchso a company can grow.
I mean, that those are twothings, right?
When the companies grow and theCEOs grow, you know, that that
raises the community aroundthem.
And so I don't I don't know ifit's any more or less.
(21:04):
Um, they're both just ingrainedparts of my life.
SPEAKER_00 (21:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think that makes perfectsense.
And uh, I could see how theythey have uh a different uh
added addition, so to speak, adifferent benefit to you.
Yeah, yeah, I think that'sgreat.
Um, so Dave, let's talk about umthe the the next 10 years.
What do you foresee in thisworld of of AI and increased EQ
(21:30):
awareness and increased uhunderstanding of the importance
of vulnerability?
How do you see all that comingtogether?
SPEAKER_01 (21:38):
So AI is here, um, is not going anywhere.
And you know, my view on it isI'm gonna learn it and I'm gonna
make that a strategic strengthof mine.
You know, I it's it's a storm,right?
It feels like a storm sometimesis how much stuff is coming at
(22:02):
me, and um, you know, in astorm, you don't necessarily get
through it by hunkering down.
Sometimes you just gotta walkthrough it.
And, you know, I think that, youknow, AI is my thought partner,
and um, I use it all the time.
Um I don't feel like I don't seea path to it being able to do
(22:29):
the type of facilitation workthat we do.
You know, when you're in personor even virtually with a group
of people, there's so muchhidden nuance.
There are you know body gesturesthat happen, there are smiles,
there are frowns, there arerolling of the eyes.
(22:49):
Um, I don't see it replacing thethe facilitation work.
Where it does help is, you know,preparation and thought and
those types of things.
But you know, a lot of the thething about AI is you've got to
be able to take theconversations and make sense of
(23:13):
them.
And you know, I use differenttools every day to record
different types of things, butlet me tell you what's not
allowed in a forum is any typeof recording information or
tools, right?
Right, right.
So you still gotta be a human inthat scenario.
Um did that that provide alittle bit of insight?
SPEAKER_00 (23:38):
Yeah, yeah.
I listen, I mean, I think uhyou're right on.
I have seen some rudimentarytools that do some basic
facilitation.
Yeah.
Uh, but I do ask myself thequestion all the time, both as a
business owner and as apractitioner, will this
technology actually, you know,get to get to the point where we
can uh use it for uh you knowthe masses?
(24:01):
Because as you know, uh I have avery, very uh lofty goal of
getting a billion people in peergroups by 2053.
And if I think about our currentuh model with facilitators and
the price of the facilitatorsand and really hand holding
people through this, uh I wonderuh if we if we can somehow uh
(24:24):
use AI to scale a bit faster, uhnot having to rely on on
facilitators.
SPEAKER_01 (24:30):
So I think that where the tool will be most
useful is in lead generation andtelling the story, right?
I don't I don't think it's gonnareplace facilitators, but there
are certainly things that youcan do to create bots and create
um, you know, interactive Q ⁇ Atype of things.
(24:50):
Um, you know, have you ever feltlike you're alone on an island
and being the only one whoactually cared about the success
of your business?
Right.
So the ability to get to peopleand to ask those questions in
mass, I feel like that'll help alot.
Um I don't I don't haveconfidence in the facilitation,
the the AI's ability to do that.
(25:12):
I do have confidence in AI'sability to do a whole bunch of
other things, and and that'swhat I use it for.
So it's a really amazing toolset that's out there that's just
getting better every day.
But just reading a room andwatching how people interact, I
(25:32):
think it's gonna, I guess it'sgonna be a long time before the
AI tools get there, especiallyin mass.
SPEAKER_00 (25:39):
You'd have to have a camera on each person.
That camera would have to readtheir emotions, that camera
would have to have some sometechnology behind it from from
uh you know that's a whole lotof stuff to read.
That's a lot of that's a lot ofbody language to read.
SPEAKER_01 (25:58):
Yeah, and you know, it's when to call on the person
who's got their arms crossed,right?
So, like someone's gotta pullthem in.
I mean, if there's if there areways that I can use it to become
better at anything I do,facilitation, whatever the case
may be, I want to learn it.
Um, I just haven't found itpractical in that environment.
(26:22):
What I do find it practical inis telling me different ways to
ask questions.
Right?
So, hey, I'm going into thisgroup, you know,
vulnerability-based trust.
What are three to five questionsthat I could ask the group that
might bring out some reactions?
So, you know, those are theareas that I'm using it now.
Um, but it just doesn't replacethe human.
(26:46):
Doesn't replace the human.
Maybe AI can ask questions thatbring tears in a positive way.
But I I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
Yeah.
So vulnerability is one of thosethings that uh you and I uh talk
about and and practice and anduh lean into.
Uh and some people obviously arequite scared of it, and often
uh, you know, the the generalunderstanding is you don't want
to be vulnerable.
Uh but for us it has a differentmeaning and a different
(27:19):
connotation.
Can you speak to that a littlebit from your perspective?
SPEAKER_01 (27:24):
Yeah, I think um vulnerability.
I mean, I got the term from you,you got it from a Stanford
professor.
Like vulnerability is thecurrency of relationships.
And I think that I'm socomfortable with it because I
(27:44):
have to do it every day, and Ihave complete confidence that
the people in the room are thereto support each other, this
mutual assured success.
You know, I don't know that, youknow, I was brought up to cry
to, hey, it's okay to cry,right?
Um, you know, I had an amazingfamily, and you know, I was
(28:07):
probably luckier than a lot ofpeople, but a lot of people that
I've worked with in thatenvironment, they've never had
the the license to just let itall hang out.
SPEAKER_02 (28:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:21):
And so it becomes a natural protective thing to not
be vulnerable, right?
Um so it's a new muscle thatpeople have to learn to use.
And the only way that I know todo that is put them in an
environment where that behavioris mirrored so they feel
(28:45):
comfortable, you know, becomingvulnerable and comfortable, you
know, exhibiting trust that, youknow, historically, they didn't
have that channel, that room,for example.
Um, but I see it, I see thebenefits of it every time it
(29:05):
happens.
You know, it's it's it's just soamazing to see the relief on
people's face when they're ableto come in and share something
that's just been bothering themthat they had nowhere else to
share it.
And then, you know, you just seethe weight lift from them.
You see the the stressevaporate.
And, you know, I think once youfeel that once, you want it
(29:30):
again.
And again, you know, it's it'sthe type of thing that um it's
really it's really gratifyingand exciting for me to see it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:40):
It is, it is.
I have to agree with that.
So let's talk about yourfacilitation work.
What are the various kinds offacilitations that you do at
this at this day and age?
SPEAKER_01 (29:51):
Yeah, so it's it's pretty much I mean, whether I'm
facilitating a uh a direct hire,yeah, I don't actually work in
that business very much rightnow.
I've got someone who runs thatfor me and she's amazing, but
that's just facilitating gettingtwo people on the same page or a
person in a company on the samepage.
(30:12):
You know, facilitating the forumwork is amazing.
You know, everything I do isaround people, process, and
sales, right?
So people facilitation that isdoing the forum work, that's
doing the executive search work,those types of things.
Process facilitation is, youknow, I'm an EOS implementer, so
entrepreneurial operatingsystem.
(30:33):
That's all facilitation.
Um, and you know, the I'm amazedhow the answer is always in the
room, and the facilitator's jobis not to provide that answer,
but to ask questions so thoseteams can get to that answer.
And so that that's a greatexample of facilitation skills.
Um, you know, facilitationskills as it relates to um
(30:57):
revenue growth, right?
So three distinctly differentofferings, right?
And so that's the outgrowoffering, which creates 15 to 30
percent increased predictablerevenue growth.
That's facilitation uh to getpeople to understand that if
they swing the bat, they'regonna hit the ball occasionally.
(31:20):
And wow, when you hit that ball,it feels so good.
But if you don't swing the bat,and I can't facilitate to a
point that they they do that,they're not gonna have that
feeling of you know hitting theball, you know, in the sweet
spot and watching it sail overthe fence.
SPEAKER_00 (31:37):
You're a golfer too, I understand, right?
SPEAKER_01 (31:40):
Yes.
Um sometimes I'm a pretty goodgolfer, sometimes I'm a bad
golfer, but yes, I love playinggolf.
SPEAKER_00 (31:48):
How do you cope with the days that uh your golf game
is not what you hoped for?
SPEAKER_01 (31:56):
So I don't take myself very seriously.
Um and actually I had one ofthose rounds a couple weeks ago,
and I was playing with some guysthat I'd never met before who
were good golfers, and I justcouldn't pull it together.
Like I just couldn't do it, andum so I kind of laughed it off,
(32:17):
probably nervous after in thebeginning, because I was a
little embarrassed.
And then on the back nine, Idecided to change things up and
I turned on my speaker andcranked up some music, you know,
to try to get get a littleenergy, get me in the rhythm.
Yeah, and about halfway throughthe back nine, I was still
performing so poorly, and one ofthe guys looked at me and he
(32:38):
goes, Sometimes it's just notyour day.
And I'm like, you know, itwasn't my day that day, but it
was a fantastic day.
It was beautiful.
We walked the golf course, wegot exercise, I got to meet new
people, you know.
That was I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (32:55):
Yeah, that's how I think of it.
I'm lucky to be outside withsome wonderful people, getting
some exercise, doing something Ilove.
SPEAKER_01 (33:04):
But I can't control every shot, can I?
Yeah, no.
I mean, you got the golf journeycoming, right?
We need to get together andhopefully we can pull our A
games together.
But if not, I can tell you we'llhave a good time.
All right, all right.
SPEAKER_00 (33:17):
I look forward to it.
Uh, Dave, what are um one or twobooks that have really meant
something to you?
And what did you take from eachof them?
SPEAKER_01 (33:27):
So um Bo Burlingham wrote a book called Small
Giants.
And, you know, his definitionthat you don't have to be big to
be great, and the concept ofwhen you lose the ability to
make an exception, you may havelost the personal connection to
(33:48):
people in an organization.
Um, so that one was amazing.
Um Stephen Covey, you know, TheSeven Habits.
Classic.
I I think about that book, youknow, and I think about that
scene in that book where itdescribes sitting in the back of
a church at a funeral andwatching a peer, watching a
(34:10):
family member, watching acommunity member, and you
realize that it's actually yourfuneral, and what are those
people gonna be saying aboutyou?
Um Pat Lincioni's FiveDysfunctions of a Team.
SPEAKER_02 (34:22):
And they're great.
SPEAKER_01 (34:23):
It's all about you know, how can we leverage this
trust to build a betterperforming organization?
And um, you know, I think manycompanies are really good at
being smart and not as good atbeing healthy, and healthy is
that strategic synergisticadvantage that that when
(34:47):
companies can get there, theyreally do well and feel good
doing it.
SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
I love that.
I love that.
Uh so Dave, as you look ahead,what do you think the impact is
when we get to a billion peoplein peer groups?
Like, think about the globalimpact of a billion people
really leaning into thismethodology, leaning into having
uh a powerful support structure,leaning into learning our
(35:15):
important language of notgeneralizing and judging and and
all of that, all of thatwonderful stuff that we do.
What do you think the impact ison a global level?
SPEAKER_01 (35:24):
I think we'd have a lot less people yelling at
screaming at each other and alot more people listening to
each other.
You know, we we have a uhcommunication, you know, let's
let's go back to with thequestion that you asked.
Hey, you know, sometimes you getpeople in who aren't used to
this type of communication,right?
To allow themselves to bevulnerable.
(35:46):
You know, if I just look at theenvironment and look at all the
people who are are doing 90%talking and 10% listening.
And, you know, when we createthis environment for this
billion people, we're gonnateach them how to listen and how
to process and how to listen tosomeone else like they may be
(36:06):
right.
Right.
So I I see not only an impact onthe individuals, but I see a
significant cultural impact whenpeople can have you know honest
discussions about things thatthey disagree with without you
know trying to beat each otherup.
I don't want to make it thatsimple, but it's kind of that
(36:28):
simple to me.
SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
Listen, you're you're preaching to the choir,
and uh, I couldn't have said itany better, but I agree with you
uh a thousand percent, and anduh hopefully we can make that
happen someday.
Uh Dave, any last coming up ornow?
That's right, maybe sooner thanwe expect.
I love that.
Um, Dave, any last uh words ofwisdom advice?
(36:51):
Not advice, that was a trickquestion.
SPEAKER_01 (36:57):
Uh I don't know.
I mean, I would like to thankyou because you introduced me to
this opportunity, right?
And you have been an amazingsupport and mentor over the
years.
And truly, I wouldn't, I don'tthink I would be mentally and
(37:18):
kind of spiritually where I amif I hadn't come across this
work.
So thank you, Mo.
Um my experience share would beif you have the opportunity to
get in a forum or a peer group,do it.
Uh, don't, you know, don't delaybecause there's so much
awesomeness available to youthere.
SPEAKER_00 (37:39):
And actually, one last question.
What has been your experience uhas a member of IFO,
International FacilitatorsOrganization?
What has been your experiencelike?
SPEAKER_01 (37:49):
You know, I think going on a retreat with people
who have already developed theconfidence and vulnerability and
how quickly you can really solvedeep problems.
Right.
Um, so the IFO retreat wasunbelievable.
(38:11):
And just think about all thepeople I've met along the way.
I mean, there's some trulyamazing people.
And if I can keep surroundingmyself with truly amazing
people, I win.
SPEAKER_00 (38:22):
Well said.
Dave Ingram, thank you verymuch.
Thank you to our audience.
And as a reminder, podcastreviews have a real impact on a
podcast's visibility.
So please leave a review to helpothers find the show.
Uh, finally, you could find allour episodes on our website at
International FacilitatorsOrganization.com.
Thank you for listening and havea great day.
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