Creative Abrasion, DEI and Soap Bubbles with Dr. Roxy Manning

Any innovation process needs to accommodate and even encourage diverse points of view and even divergent truths. This almost necessarily produces conflict. Are there practical, trainable ways of navigating this reality at both the individual and group levels to give us the peace of heart and mind to enter in this dance of complexity and ambiguity and create systems of wholecome innovation? YES!
Dr. Roxy Manning, is a clinical psychologist and certified Center for Nonviolent Communication trainer. She brings decades of service experience to her work interrupting explicitly and implicitly oppressive attitudes and cultural norms. Dr. Manning has consulted, and provided training across the US and in over 10 countries individuals and groups committed to social change - creating what she calls the beloved community.
www.roxannemanning.com for more info and book purchasing!

Intro and Outro music kind courtesy of Taraval.

Episode Transcript

Bill Duane (00:00):
Hi, welcome to the Heart of Innovation Podcast. I'm
Bill Duane, former Googleengineering executive and
superintendent of wellbeing andcourage consultant and speaker
on innovation strategy. We'regoing to be diving deep into the
internal innovation that unlocksexternal innovation and the
surprisingly practical ways wecan become better innovators.
We'll be in conversation withinnovators from many different

(00:22):
backgrounds and contextsincluding business, science,
social change and technology andnot only benefit from their
expertise, but also theirpersonal stories of their
innovation journey. Today, we'rejoined by the estimable and
joyous Dr. Roxy Manning, aclinical psychologist and
certified Center for NonviolentCommunication trainer. She
brings decades of serviceexperience to her work

(00:43):
interrupting explicitly andimplicitly oppressive attitudes
and cultural norms. Dr. Manninghas consulted across the US and
over 10 countries withindividuals and groups committed
to social change, creating whatshe calls the Beloved Community.
She also works as a psychologistin San Francisco serving the
homeless and disenfranchisedmentally ill population. She is
author of two books you shouldabsolutely buy when they come

out in a few weeks (01:06):
How to Have Antiracist Conversations -
Embracing Our Full Humanity toChallenge White Supremacy, and
the co-author with Sarah Peytonof the companion text, The
Antiracist Heart - A SelfCompassion and Activism
Handbook. So Roxy, thank you somuch for being here. I've been
looking forward to us chattingsince the last time we chatted.

(01:26):
I appreciate you being here.

Roxy Manning (01:28):
Thank you, Bill.
I'm so excited.

Bill Duane (01:32):
One other thing that occurred to me when I was
thinking about, anticipating, uschatting was, I think, in
addition to the who you are andthe content is, I think
everybody should have a friendnamed Roxy. It just occurred
like when I saw. I'm so gladthat our friend, Phoenix,
introduced us. And then I reallyenjoyed us, us chatting. And I
was like, Oh, I now have afriend named Roxy. I think that

(01:54):
is intrinsically awesome. I justwanted to say.

Roxy Manning (01:59):
I love it. I'm going to send that back to like
my five year old self, whothought my name was a little bit
odd.

Bill Duane (02:06):
Is there a story behind your name? Do you have a
relative named Roxy? or

Roxy Manning (02:10):
No. My dad actually loved Cyrano de
Bergerac and decided to name me,Roxanne. And so that's my name.

Bill Duane (02:18):
Oh, that's fantastic. Oh, I love that.
Okay, so jumping in with theusual question for this podcast?
What's your definition ofinnovation? Or what does
innovation mean to you?

Roxy Manning (02:34):
So for me, innovation is anything that
helps to advance the humancondition. And bottom line. And
that can be in any differentmany, many, many formats. It can
be technological innovation,which is making it easier for us
to do things. But it can also bepsychological info, innovation.
What's going to help us livehappier, more well-fulfilled

(02:56):
lives. And I think that's anarea of innovation that
sometimes has lagged behind asthere's been so much focus in
the last 100, 150 years on thetechnological innovation.

Bill Duane (03:08):
So one of the things you're an expert in, is
Nonviolent Communication. Somepeople might not be already
familiar with that. I waswondering if you can explain a
little bit about what it is andhow it came to be?

Roxy Manning (03:22):
Sure. So Nonviolent Communication has
been around since the 60s, whena psychologist, Dr. Marshall B.
Rosenberg, was looking at whatwas happening in the civil
rights movement in the UnitedStates. And one of the things
that he was stunned by waspeople, black people, who were
experiencing so much hatred, andso much pushback, were still

(03:43):
saying, I'm going to show up,I'm going to fight for social
change, and I'm going to do itnonviolently. So they were
taking all of this hatred thatwas being sent to them, and
composting it, and channeling itinto this energy of social
change.
And that's what he wanted tofigure out. Like, how do we get
this accessible to everyoneelse. And so Nonviolent

(04:05):
Communication brings in threadsof learning and knowledge from a
whole bunch of different fields.
And it combines it into how werelate to each other, a
consciousness. And then alsothere's a four step process
that's a communication modelthat supports this consciousness
of how we want to be with eachother.

Bill Duane (04:24):
Hmm. And one of the things that is really wild for
me is given its its origin storyis that, you know, Nonviolent
Communication, or NVC, is reallypopular in the tech world, which
is where I became to it. It'sone of this I mean, I take it as
being really hopeful that yeah,that that, that this thing that

(04:47):
came out of the civil rightsmovement has found really such a
fertile ground in the in thetech industry.

Roxy Manning (04:53):
Yeah. And I think it's partly because of what
Nonviolent Communication istrying to do. So, I was married
to someone in the tech industry.
And I know that one of thethings that was true, at least
for this person, is that he wasan overachiever, right? He was
always focused on, I'm going tobe a great student. I'm going to
really understand and developthe tech role, and wasn't always
as connected to himself. AndNonviolent Communication

(05:17):
provides a really great way toboth connect to and understand
myself, and then to take thatconnection and use it to
understand other people. So it'sa 'how to' that I think, is
really effective for not justtech folks, but everyone.

Bill Duane (05:32):
Yeah, and I think you put your finger right on it.
Because it takes an area thatseems very squishy, of all the
things about connecting toyourself and connecting to other
people. And it basically says,here's how to do it. And it's
intrinsically normative. I had atherapist who had a great line,
you know, he said, people whoespouse brutal honesty tend to

(05:55):
be in it for the brutality partof it. So the honesty.

Roxy Manning (05:59):
I love what you said about Nonviolent
Communication is the how tomanual. And I think that's
what's been missing for so manyof us. As a psychologist, I was
told, empathy is the key to likea really successful therapeutic
relationship. But no one told mewhat empathy was. And that's one

(06:20):
of the things I learned throughNonviolent Communication.

Bill Duane (06:24):
And you mentioned four steps. So I think it's I
mean, the thing that is reallyuseful, it's like, well, one is
contained within it is we canget better at this. And boy, is
that such a relief for anybodywho struggled with empathy or
compassion or even beingunderstood to have a stepwise
way of addressing this? Wouldyou mind on unpacking those?

Roxy Manning (06:46):
Sure. So the four steps and we call them OFNR.
Like if you ever hear NVC,you'll hear OFNR also as an
acronym. It's Observations,Feelings, Needs, and Requests.
And when we think aboutobservations, we, like classic
NVC talked about what'shappening out there in the world
that everyone can see and agreeupon. And I've expanded that a

(07:09):
little bit to talk about, I wantto observe what's happening out
in the real world, but I alsowant to observe what's happening
internally inside of myself.
Right? What are my judgments andthoughts? I'm not pushing them
away and saying they're bad. I'mjust owning them as when this
thing happened out there,something also happened inside
of me. And what was that thing?

(07:29):
And then I also talk aboutsystemic observations. Because
we, we don't live in a vacuum.
We live in a world where there'sa certain context happening. And
I like people to think about,what's the context in which
you're moving? What are some ofthe patterns that are happening
in the world that you're seeing?
So observations is the firststep. And part of the goal of
observations in NonviolentCommunication is that whenever I

(07:50):
talk to somebody else aboutsomething, I want to know, what
are we talking about? What do weagree upon? And I don't know if
you've ever had a conversationwith somebody - like there's a
conflict. You're having aconversation, and y'all are
arguing back and forth andrealize you're not even talking
about the same thing. And so wetalk about observations in NVC
to make sure we're actuallytalking about the same thing,

(08:13):
before we go to the next steps.
The second step, feelings, isbasically our feelings. What's
going on inside of me? What aremy emotions? How am I reacting
to what's happening, what thisobservation is. And then the
really key part in NonviolentCommunication is that if I have
a feeling, it's because I haveneeds. There's some important

(08:34):
need that's met, or not met,that stimulating my feelings.
And for me, this was mindblowing. I was told that. I
often thought I felt some waybecause you did something to me,
right? So if you called me thisword, that I'm going to have a
feeling. And it put all of thepower, in some ways, in your
hands. You could make me feel acertain way. And NVC reclaims

(08:59):
that power by saying, No. When Ihave a feeling, even if you call
me a word, I have a need that'smet or not met when you say
that. And so if my - here'slike one that comes up a lot.
People always like, why can't Iuse the N word, right? If I want
to be really bold about this.
And I always tell people thatcontext matters. If a random
person called me the N word as ablack person, I don't know you,

(09:22):
I don't know anything about you.
So when I hear that word, itstimulates a lot of meaning
about disrespect, about the waysthat black folks had been
treated in our society. And somy needs for respect, for care,
are not met. I feel angry. Butif my homeboy down the street
calls me the N word, it's likewe're also acknowledging shared

(09:44):
identity, shared culture, andall of a sudden my needs for
belonging for being part of thecommunity are met, and I might
feel warmth. And so that worddoes not exist independently of
the context and what it's meantfor different people to say it.
So NVC kind of connects us tothose needs to help us
understand our feelings. Andthen the last step is requests.

(10:05):
Once I understand what are myneeds, what am I feeling, what
am I going to do about it? Andthis is so transformative. It's
not just the kind of like,someone calls it belly button
gazing, right? It's not justlooking and saying, Okay, I
understand this was going on.
Like, so now say something, askfor something that's going to
help change, or give you more ofwhat it is that you're enjoying.

Bill Duane (10:28):
And one of the things I love about that idea
of, of it being contextual, isit offers this possibility, I
love the phrase, like whensomeone lives in your head. And
you know, our biologicalinterwiring is so complicated
that literally someone can takeover our internal experience by

(10:52):
providing us external stimuli bycutting us off in traffic or
saying something to it. And whatI like about this model is it
doesn't privilege one side. Itdoesn't really in terms of
responsibility, privilege, oneside. Is we actually, there's
something we can do. Again, thisis a methodology for someone to
have a little bit of internalindependence from our, from our

(11:17):
from our external, like thedata, the the information that
we're taking in, while also notsaying, Oh, it's all on the
shoulders of the individual tobe more resilient.

Roxy Manning (11:27):
Absolutely. And you've kind of actually targeted
one of the places where I thinkpeople misunderstand Nonviolent
Communication, and think thatit's putting all of
responsibility on the personwho's experienced pain, right?
So what's important for me torecognize is Nonviolent
Communication acknowledges thatwhen you do something, you're

(11:48):
the stimulus. That my feelingsare not completely independent
of the external world. And Iwant to acknowledge, like, yeah,
I don't want to be a stimulusfor this unmet need for you. So
it doesn't sever responsibility.
It just acknowledges it and italso includes my awareness of my
internal state and how thatimpacts my reactions.

Bill Duane (12:09):
Hmm, beautiful. And I'd love to loop that back
around to the first thing yousaid about innovation being this
method of creating somethingthat's wholesome. And this is
the reason why, for me and mywork in innovation, I think all
these ideas of communication areso important because for me that

(12:29):
there's a connection between theability to disagree generatively
and, and innovation. So, youknow, for me, the the ROI for
diversity is diversity opens upmore paths of possibility. So

(12:50):
the famous example that Googlewas the first Youtube app was
unusable by left handed people,because there were no left
handed people on the designteam. And they're all holding up
their phones be like, this isthe best thing ever. And all the
south paws were like, Yeah, youdie in a fire. I just, I can't
use this at all. And so there'sthe idea that. But on the other

(13:13):
hand, that team was like, Oh, myGod, we're doing such a good
job, because in the absence ofdifferent points of view. And
there's a term for this calledcreative abrasion, that I love
because I think there's acertain expectation that any
sort of diversity work, not justformal DEI work within its own

(13:34):
cone, but anything where we haveto disagree, that it's
automatically pleasant. And youknow, one of the things that you
brought up is, this idea of, arewe talking about the same thing?
Like it's, it's really easy toget into a heated argumentative
state, against like a perceivedvalue that's coming in. So for

(13:57):
me the connection betweeneverything that you've been
saying up until now, and thereason why I love your work so
much is like knowing how toknowing how to navigate creative
abrasion, for me, is is a is acrucial way of actually, I don't
think you can do innovationwithout it. But I'll add one
other thing and then and thenget your take on it. Is we have

(14:19):
this myth of the lone hero,innovator, and inventor. And,
you know, a lot of times that'sthe person whose name is on the
door. We can look at Edison, wecan look at Jobs. And you know,
they tend to be people that arealready at the top of the social
stack. And I do think that thereis a huge role for the lightning

(14:40):
rod, the instigator, thevisionary, all of that, but none
of these happen without a groupof people. And for me, the more
diverse that group of people iscoming up with it, the more the
possibility of one, somethingunique coming you know, have and
then two, is of it beingwholesome rather than extractive

Roxy Manning (15:01):
Oh, I love this.
There's so many things you saidthat I'm really loving. One of
the things that I think isreally important is this
recognition that diversity isn'teasy, right? It's both not easy
and it's incredibly essential.
That when we are only looking atone side of the coin, etc, we're

(15:22):
missing so much. And the otherpiece that I'm really, and I'm
gonna say some more about that.
But the other piece that I justwant to celebrate is this idea
that we want to pay attention towhen we're being extractive.
When we're not including peoplein the design phase, in the
planning phase, in the decisionmaking phase, but we're stealing
their ideas, using it, and thenkind of keeping them out of the

(15:44):
room. So there's so much thereto also talk about. I want to go
back though, to this piecearound, okay, if diversity isn't
easy. What do we do? How do wehave the conversations? How do I
challenge or how do I openmyself up to being challenged
about something that I've heldfor a long time as my truth, and
that everyone around me says isthe truth. I imagine that those

(16:07):
first conversations in Google,when you were describing this
YouTube app, right. That firstbrave lefty who said, "Wait a
second, this was completelyunusable," had to do a lot of
work. They had to like bothvalidate their experience, trust
that it was worth bringing toeveryone else, and then persist
with whatever pushback they weregetting from people who are

(16:29):
saying, "What are you talkingabout? We all are fine with
this," right. And this is partof what we need to do when we're
talking about diversity. That weneed to like, instead of saying,
"Hey, you're wrong, we all gotit" we need to say, "Whoa, what
am I missing? What perspectiveam I not seeing?"

Bill Duane (16:45):
Well, I'll tell you, I'll share a story. It's an
embarrassing one to share aboutjust how awesome being
exclusionary can feel. So I wasat a Google leadership training

(17:06):
event. Multiple days, veryemotionally intelligent. And we
were all in these little cohortsof about five or six people
going through the journeytogether. And it was amazing,
because my cohort we were allcommunicating via like memes and
movie references and songreferences. And it felt so good.

(17:28):
It was so easy. It was like itwas like being on ice skates. I
mean, the the phrase that comesto mind is like, imagine if
you're on a train, and thewheels are made of ice and the
rails are made of ice and it'sperfectly straight. It was just
it. And it felt fantastic. Itwas we really giddy with how
much we liked each other. One ofthe people in our group was from

(17:50):
Finland. And one of the thingsthey do to help you get real at
the end of it is you all justget together and hang out and
have drinks. And after we'vebeen hanging out for a while the
Finnish guy said, "Hey, listen,I didn't want to rain on
anyone's parade because you werehaving such a great time. But I
have to say this was one of theloneliest weeks I've ever had."

(18:12):
He said, "I haven't seen any ofthese movies. I haven't listened
to any of this music. I'm abouteight years older than you." And
he said, "But I just couldn'tbring myself to break up your
good time." Yeah, and all of us.
So there's a couple things thatleft us really intensely
crestfallen. One is this, thisnotion that harm was done

(18:33):
without intention, but just thissick feeling of, of being
exclusionary felt amazing. Ithink there's this idea that
we're like twirling a mustacheand wearing a top hat when we
make these kind of mistakes. Butthat was, that was a huge
learning. And as a result, hisdiscomfort in in being the bad

(18:53):
guy and saying I have no ideawhat you're talking about
deprived the group of his input.
And from, you know, Finnishculture is remarkably different
than California culture.

Roxy Manning (19:07):
There's something that you're naming that I just
want to really point out,because I think this is where
Nonviolent Communication comesin. You're saying and I'm both
like loving the vulnerability inwhich you're sharing this. But
you're naming that beingexclusionary felt wonderful. And
I would want to change thatlanguage around. Because I don't
think any of y'all were going,I'm being exclusionary, right.

(19:28):
You were just kind of vibing andreally, like you said,on that
like smooth sailing ice witheveryone else. And I think when
we talk about diversity, this isone of the things that happens.
Y'all had no clue you were beingexclusionary and you still had
an impact. And so it's how do webalance that? Like holding
yourself with a lot ofcompassion, and really

(19:50):
understanding the joy you werefeeling? You know, that
wonderful part when Oh, wow,here are all of these people who
get me who dig the same things Idig. And then the sickening
feeling of and that joy wasdevastating for someone else.
And this is, I think, is one ofthe big challenges that happens
when organizations and groupsare trying to deal with

(20:12):
diversity. That when people hearwhat you were just doing that
felt so good to you was horriblefor me. They don't know how to
deal with that. And theycollapse. They either lash out
at the message giver, or theytake on all of this blame and
self judgment that prevents themfrom showing up to create
change.

Bill Duane (20:33):
Yeah, I mean, this is why I think this sort of work
is so it's just so non optional.
And you know, one of the thingsI hope with doing. You know,
part of the reason why I'mengaged in this work of focusing
on innovation is we have a lotof systems that are crumbling.
Sometimes it's good thesesystems are crumbling - stuff
around race, stuff aroundgender. Other things, it's

(20:54):
terrifying that they'recrumbling, like the biosphere.
In In either case, we need tofigure out new ways of doing
things and everything you justmentioned about this very, this
dance of disagreement andvulnerability and meaning and
impact, in addition to, I think,intrinsically having ethical
weight to it, I think it hasthis huge practical impact. And

(21:20):
in particular, you're mentioningit. You know, it's not obvious
that there's a huge relationshipbetween shame and innovation.
But how many times do we livesmall, even in this case. You
know, there's this idea of, wecould have had input from this
person the whole time. And thenbut the fact of the learning of
that can be so painful thatthere's even a chance that we

(21:45):
won't be able to withstand theknowledge because of that shame.
And I think this is somethingthat I love about your work is
it's so it's so tender, and andexpert in this handling of
traversing these parts of which.
And I think part of it is NVCand then part of it is I think

(22:06):
what you bring to it, of of howdo we traverse these places so
we can actually hold theselearnings in a way that that we
can stand? And so I'm curious.
Yeah, I'll just leave it thereare questions or thoughts about
shame and learning and

Roxy Manning (22:23):
I feel, I'm actually feeling really tender,
as I hear you talk about thisdance that we need to do. And I
want to talk about the dancefrom both perspectives. So in
the story that you shared, I'mgoing to call you the actor. You
and your group are the actors,you are the people who are doing
something completelyunintentionally, in this case,

(22:44):
that had an impact on theFinnish guy who I'm going to
call the receiver. And in bothcases, for both the actor and
the receiver, we have tonavigate this dance of shame. So
I want to talk about thereceiver first, when we're
talking about diversity, he hadto go pass any shame and any
self judgments he had. Like,I've been in that situation

(23:06):
where I'm thinking, I shouldknow this movie, I should know
this song. What's wrong with me?
Like, why am I not part of this,like in-group with this popular
culture? And he had to withstandall of that, and still say, and
it's worth me telling you whatmy experience is. That is really
hard. And a lot of people. Oneof the one of the things I hear
from a lot of folks in thatactor role is, "Well, why didn't

(23:28):
you say something?" And it'sbecause they're not aware of
just how painful it is, and howvulnerable it is to say, "I
don't actually know these thingsthat you're talking about" and
still hold yourself with a lotof compassion. So that's the
first piece, that even justspeaking up to name when there's
an impact like that requires alot of self compassion, and a

(23:49):
lot of trust in the otherperson, that they're gonna want
to hear you, that they're goingto receive you, and that
something can actually be done.
But then I think about theactors also, right, it's exactly
like you said, when I get thatmessage that I've done something
that had an impact on someoneelse, it's so easy to fall into

(24:11):
shame. And the shame blocks usfrom being able to, and
sometimes even wanting to hearmore. And we can't create change
in our world, if we don't createthe conditions for people to
give us these hard messages. Andso I always tell people, none of
us or very few people that Iknow, I actually know some folks

(24:32):
who have, but very few peoplehave grown up in a way that
frees them from shame. Thattells them, oh, when you've made
a mistake, that's part of beinghuman, and we could mourn it and
regret it and we don't have tobeat ourselves up about it
right. A lot of us were raisedwhere we were told the way to
make you be a good person is toshame you so that you would

(24:52):
never do that again. So once weunderstand that, that this is
part of, for so many of us, ourhuman condition We can take that
shame and I call it compostingit. I don't have to like run
away from my shame. I don't haveto hide it. Just compost it and
say what is the shame pointingto? What is it trying to nurture
and grow in me? And then act onthat need? Right? So when I

(25:16):
think about the shame that youwere naming as you heard this
person speak, what was importantto you? What were you
regretting, as you heard him andheard his experience?

Bill Duane (25:27):
One was a sense of shame that something that had
been harmful to him made me feelgiddy and gleeful. So that
impedance mismatch of experienceof. You know, I think there's
something when you saysomething, and you're, you just
don't know and you get told,like, oh, okay. But with this

(25:50):
one, the fact that it felt soamazing, that there was a
cognitive, maybe not even acognitive, but an affective
dissonance might be a better abetter word for that where. You
know, it's one thing to dosomething with ill intention,
it's one thing to do things withignorance, but this just seemed
like, a little bit differentgiven, given how fantastic it

(26:12):
felt. So, you know, for me, youknow, the learning of like,
monocultures feel great ifyou're on the inside.

Roxy Manning (26:19):
Yeah. And so even this piece though around, like
when I think about how tocompost, that shame that you
were feeling about thisaffective dissonance, it's kind
of pointing to so what is itthat's important to you? And I
want to check, I'm guessing inthat moment, you realize how
much you want to trust, thatwhen you're feeling really great
about something, that you'reliving in alignment with all of

(26:42):
your values, which includeinclusion and care for everyone
else. Does that feel true?

Bill Duane (26:49):
Yeah, absolutely.

Roxy Manning (26:50):
Yeah. And so whenever I notice, like, okay,
so this is what the shame ispointing to - that this was a
moment when I was living out ofalignment with my values, then I
start to ask myself, so is theresomething I can ask of myself,
that will help realign this? Isthere some way in your case that
you could then go back to thatperson and help him feel

(27:11):
included, help him feel a partof the same kind of giddy joy
and alignment that you werefeeling? And that would be one
of the ways to work through thatshame - to hear his message, not
let it make you collapse, but tolead you into an action that you

Bill Duane (27:23):
Yeah, I'm, I'm basking in the light of your
could take?
expertise and your wisdom. Andnoting that, you know, one of
the services that you offer iscoaching of the kind you are
just helping me with. I've oftenbeen. I would wonder, so
obviously, one on one coachingis expensive and hard to get to.

(27:46):
Have you ever thought aboutwriting a book with some of
these concepts?

Roxy Manning (27:53):
You are funny.
Absolutely. In fact, I've justwritten two books. One book is
called How to Have AntiracistConversations. And it basically
outlines all of these concepts.
It's a brief introduction toNonviolent Communication, and to
thinking about how to apply itto DEI issues, especially. And

(28:15):
then the other book is the howto book. It's like, okay, so I
get it, I understand theconcepts. And I noticed I have a
lot of challenges and blockscoming up inside of myself. How
do I unpack those blocks so thatI can actually move in the
direction I want to? So it's ahandbook with lots of exercises
and activities to help peoplefind where they're feeling
stuck, and take action?

Bill Duane (28:37):
Because that imagine anybody who just heard that
interchange between us was like,Oh, could I get some of that?
The answer is, is yes, you can.
And, you know, I'm very gratefulthat you've taken your knowledge
and put it in a form that's soagain, looping back to the
beginning, designed to be veryactionable, and, and
methodological, to sort of enterinto this into this dance.

(29:00):
Another area where I think theideas that you espouse and
innovation are really connectedis our relationship with
complexity and ambiguity. Youknow, something that that, you
know, you say on your website isthat many different realities
can be true simultaneously. Anda few minutes ago, you mentioned

(29:22):
that, you know, on the one handis it's so important to be true
and authentic to your livedexperience, and then also
realizing that lived experiencecan vary widely. So I'm curious
what are your thoughts betweenthis idea of how the way that we
communicate with each other canhelp us explore and also just

(29:43):
what the you know, what's,what's the human minds
relationship to complexity andambiguity? And I think when we
take on innovation work we are,we are choosing to leave a state
of knowing and solid ground andreally stepping into not knowing
and groundlessness.

Roxy Manning (30:06):
And I think like, when you ask this question, the
first thing that came to me wasthat we are on a spectrum. And I
think that's really importantfor people to understand where
they are in relation tocomplexity and ambiguity. Some
folks are very much around orderand predictability. And they
have really high needs for that.
And other folks would like, giveme chaos, it, the more like

(30:27):
crazy and wild it is, the betterit is. And it's really easy,
depending on where you are tosay that my way is the right
way. The folks who lovepredictability, look down on the
folks who want that kind offreewheeling ambiguity. The
folks who want spontaneity arelike, Oh, that person is a
little bit rigid. And so eventhere, it's kind of

(30:50):
acknowledging that multipletruths can be real, right? That
your ambiguity is real thing. Myyour love of ambiguity is real,
my love of predictability isreal. And they don't have to
clash. That I can acknowledgelike this is what's true for me
and what's coming up in thismoment is how much I feel
uncertain and shaky when you'redoing your spontaneity thing.

(31:12):
And I want to ask you aboutthis, and I want to make
requests around what wouldsupport me.

Bill Duane (31:20):
I love that idea that there is automatic
assumptions about what correctis. And you know, in some of the
look, we look at chaos theoryand complexity theory, there's
the idea that, you know, whetheror not something is more
routinized or more up in theair, whether or not that
skillful is highly contextdependent. So I work with a few

(31:40):
biotech firms. And on the on theone hand is the like coming up
with new ways of creatingdevices or treatments. You, you
want that to be very wild, veryfree thinking very association.
But then there's a funnel, giventhat this is going to be used on
on humans, of safety. Where youdon't want any ambiguity in the

(32:03):
manufacturing portion of it, youknow. You don't want to have
anybody be freestyling in termsof what what ends up in, in your
pills. But I think without thisability to articulate at this
moment, I think, predictabilityand order is really important to
serve these ends, otherwise,we're just on this autopilot of
assumption. And I think becausea lot of times our relationship

(32:26):
to complexity and ambiguity isso brain stem-y. It's it's fear,
or it's love, that it doesn'teven occur to us to unpack it in
in the way that that youmentioned it before.

Roxy Manning (32:40):
I love that you said that because I think this
is the question we need to askourselves. Whenever I notice
that I'm having a strongreaction that I want something
in this way - I want order or Iwant more creativity - another
good question to ask is, andwhat purpose is it serving,
right? So order, just like ablanket blanket, desire for

(33:02):
order in every context, doesn'tactually serve exactly like you
named. I can't be innovative ifI'm always keeping things locked
down really tight. So I need toask myself for this reason, for
this purpose, is order the rightstrategy, the right approach.
And if I can connect to not justorder for the sake of order, but

(33:23):
order for this purpose, thenit's a lot easier to get people
on board. I imagine even theperson who loves like creativity
and chaos is saying, Well, ofcourse I want human bodies to be
safe with this medical device.
This is the moment when we needorder. But we need to be able to
articulate this is the reasonwhy I'm asking for this
principle to be followed, ratherthan this is the right way all

(33:44):
the time.

Bill Duane (33:47):
You know, something that's come up a few times in
our previous conversations, andin this conversation is the
difference between, and therelationships between, the
individual and the group andthat they're, again, in this in
this very complicated dance. Onething I think it's really
important is, you know, how didwhat are the systems people were
involved in and what did theythink about order. So for

(34:09):
example, in the military in theNavy, like you get in trouble if
you operate a fire extinguisherwithout having passed the fire
extinguisher exam, so very,highly routinized. And there's
lots of good reasons for that.
However, if you've come up inthat environment, the idea of
anything, that's where theautomatic solution to any
problem is process andprocedure, and nailing it down.

(34:33):
So at the same time, that whenyou're talking before about an
internal awareness of what's myrelationship, how when I was my
brainstem respond to variouslevels of activity or non
activity, it's also what are thenorms I grew up with? And what
are the systems and inparticular, the norms of

(34:53):
organizations and groups.

Roxy Manning (34:58):
And when I hear you say that, it reminds me that
in some ways, it's easier toapply this when I start to think
about what are my organization'snorms, right? So if I'm in the
military, it's like we prizeorder. We prize like rules and
following these things, andpeople get that. But what's
less, what's more opaque topeople is that we also grow up

(35:20):
in these systems. And theyunconsciously influence when I
have the sense of, ooh,something is off here.
Something's not right. Iremember, I was leading a
retreat once, and there wassomebody from Sri Lanka at the
retreat. And at this retreat, itwas a Nonviolent Communication
retreat, quite amusedly. And atthe retreat, a lot of people had

(35:43):
a very clear sense of this isthe order that we're following.
There are these four step NVCprocess, we don't talk about
stories very much. The personfrom Sri Lanka was like, stories
are part of how we connect.
Like, I can't even start the NVCprocess, unless we've shared a
story, something that'sconnecting us to kind of like
our past experience and ourfamily experience. And they kept

(36:05):
clashing because the person fromSri Lanka was seeing the Western
NVC folks as being very rigidand kind of rule bound. And the
NVC folks were just like, he'swasting so much time. And I
think neither was aware of howtheir norms about how to relate
to it to people was impactingwhat they were expecting from in

(36:27):
the moment, and what they feltcomfortable with.

Bill Duane (36:31):
Huh, right. So there's you bring up, we were
talking about the military alittle bit, the military is
fascinating for me, because itis so routinized at one level,
in order to make the mostchaotic of situations safe and
effective. Right. So it's almostlike floating on top of all

(36:52):
this. And you know, I think inparticular around combat, and
it's a relatively limited numberof people that get involved in
that highly emergent violence.
But it's really interesting thatthat there's almost like two
layers, there's almost like the,you know, I think the best
combat leaders are the ones thatare very, very, can stand on
that foundation, and then gointo that very supple, alive

(37:15):
area of of emergence. And theway I'm relating that to the
story you were just tellingabout the retreat is that both
like both are both are true. AndI think we can oversimplify it
by saying this situation demandsthis response as being skillful.
But there's almost this idea ofslipping in between those. So

(37:37):
with the person, you know, I'mreally thinking about, there are
certain cases where reverting tostories and archetypes is such
an efficient way of quicklycommunicating something. And I
think emotion also follows intothat form. But it may seem that
that's not routinized. Or, orit's not, it's not step wise,

(37:59):
given the process. So that ideathat slipping between the two I
think is the for for me, I thinkis is the is the point where the
mastery really takes over.

Roxy Manning (38:10):
Yeah, I. So connected to this, for me, is
this idea of with the military,they're very. It's like, I can
almost game out all of thedifferent situations that we
might experience. And so thatexpert, that leader that you
were describing, needs to besupple in a very small number of

(38:30):
situations I'm imagining, right,but because many of them are
already laid out. In humaninteractions, it's like I have
no idea where you're going togo. And so it also requires more
skill from us. And for many ofus, we almost want to fall back
into the this is what I'mexpecting, because it requires
less of that supple, andcreativity. It requires less

(38:54):
brainpower in a way to navigateif I can say this is what I'm
expecting, this is what I'mcomfortable with, I'm going to
be this train on this track,rather than every conversation
becomes this wildlyunpredictable thing.

Bill Duane (39:06):
Right, which in certain cases is what's needed.
On the other hand, just toreally honor that there's a huge
cognitive load in that, whichbrings up this idea of the
interpersonal. I mean, I thinkone of the things where NVC can
really help is to have somecuriosity about helping someone

(39:26):
else interrogate their owncontainer. When I when I talk
about self awareness. Selfawareness, a lot of times we,
you know, we in tech, we'd callthis out of band monitoring. And
I think both in terms of we canhelp so if we're in a group of
whatever kind, where there'sthis cognitive abrasion coming

(39:47):
up, you know, to have thebaseline of trust and
vulnerability where you can asksomeone to help you interrogate
your own perspective andcontainer or in a in a loving,
gentle way, get someone to see,hey, FYI, you're a fish and
you're wet. And they're like,what?

Roxy Manning (40:09):
Yeah. I'm going back to the story you shared
about that team meeting, thatteam retreat and the Finnish
person. And it feels like thisis also one of those places,
right? I wonder what it wouldhave been like, for both you and
the Finnish person to do thatinterrogation of their own
container? For you all to lookaround and say, Gosh, this is

(40:32):
going so well, I'm enjoying itso much. And who's
participating? Right? Ifeveryone had checked to see,
like, is everyone participatingin the conversation? Have I
heard everyone's voice? Thenya'll might have been able to
notice like, Oh, I wonder ifhe's not participating because,
you know, he's just naturallyquiet? Which I'm imagining is

(40:53):
probably what you're, you'reprobably thinking, oh, yeah,
he's probably just fine. Or isthere something else wrong? So
it's even that piece of likelooking and noticing? What am I
not seeing? Or what am I notpaying attention to, could be
really important. And similarly,for the Finnish person. I wonder
why he waited until the veryend? Like I hear the kind of

(41:14):
like, I'm not wanting to disruptthe flow, etcetera. But he was
still part of the team. So thatinterrogation of like, what is
he telling himself about hismattering and his belonging in
the group? And how importantthat would be for y'all if he
was able to ask himself thosequestions would he have spoken
up earlier?

Bill Duane (41:35):
And also, some of these that makes me think that
we have these overlaps ofdomains. So in this case, the
stereotypical Finnish culture isvery quiet, very individual, not
very, not very social. OnReddit, I saw a picture of
people standing at a bus stop inone of the Nordic countries,

(41:58):
that wasn't Finland. And theywere standing about 10 feet
apart, because that's how youqueue up, is you stand 10 feet
apart. And some guy from Finlandwas like, Look how close they
are, you know? Yeah. But eveneven by Nordic standards. So I
think we can have theseoverlapping ideas. And I think,
you know, interrogate can have aharsh sound to it. Maybe, maybe
a better term would be like, canyou poke the soap bubble? Right

(42:22):
to see if it pops. So in thiscase, the soap bubble was
Finnish people are quiet.
Americans, California, Americansin particular, are loud and
obnoxious. So that's, this isjust what's going on. So we can
sort of overlay those.

Roxy Manning (42:45):
I'm really feeling pensive about this conversation,
because I do a lot of work withorganizations on
microaggressions. And I thinkthis is the place where we often
don't check our assumptions,that many people, there's an
organizational culture, and thenwhen someone comes in who's not
part of that culture, sometimeswe expect them to be different.

(43:08):
And we expect that there's goingto be challenged, and we assume
that anything that's happeningis because of their difference,
rather than what are we doingthat's contributing to that
challenge that's happening. Andso this is one of those, you
know, popping the soap of Imight use his face from now on,
but popping that soap bubblebubble might help people to

(43:28):
start to question their ownactions, like, what am I doing
that's contributing to this? Andwhat's happening in our system
and our culture that'scontributing to this discomfort,
rather than it's because oftheir difference.

Bill Duane (43:41):
Right. And of course, in order for that to
happen, you got to see this asoap bubble. You have to be
like, you know, the fishes like,I'm what now wet, what is wet?
How would I know if I'm not wet?
And so this brings us to anissue I think that's really
important in terms of whether itbe for dei or innovation stuff

(44:04):
is how do we create environmentswhere the physics of the
situation, tilt towardswholesomeness? And I think an
anti pattern for this is puttingall of the locusts on the
individual? So you mentionedjust now the stuff you were
feeling pensive about is, youknow, this idea of like

(44:25):
stereotype threat of oh, well,it's because this person is
different than that. And thenalmost like the idea that that's
causing problems. And I thinkthat can lead to as well as the
in particular the Americanindividualist ethos, which
again, is fish, we don't know,we're wet, that you solve these
problems. So in other words,that there's there's an

(44:48):
extractive nature, which iscontractive. And then if only
individuals were more resilientthan the problem would be
solved. But I just even thinkfrom an efficiency standpoint,
not to mind the obvious moralaspects of it that like, well,
what if we didn't require somuch resilience? What if we,

(45:10):
what if the gravity on thisplanet wasn't so heavy, but
again, we're not really aware ofit since it's omnipresent. And
this means really being veryskillful about it's not just the
systemic stuff, or it's not theindividual stuff, we get back to
this idea of very interestingand delicate dance between the

(45:33):
two.

Roxy Manning (45:36):
Yeah, even this, I, like I mentioned, I do a lot
of work on microaggressions. Andone of the activities, one of
the things I have folks do isthey're working in small groups,
and sharing microaggressionsthat they've experienced. And
I'm always shocked how manypeople believe that this is
happening to me, right? Or thepeople who are not experiencing

(45:58):
those microaggressions are like,Oh, what's happening to that one
person. And what I hear over andover and over again, is, once I
start hearing everyone'sstories, I realize that this is
not about the person. There'ssomething in our system,
something the way we're set up,that's causing this to happen
reliably to members of thisgroup. But they can't even know

(46:21):
that until we start to hear andspeak to each other. And so when
you ask, like, what are one ofthe things that we can do that
can help to, I don't know, maybelighten the gravity? It would be
make it normalized talking aboutthese conversations, about these
topics. Right? Ask thequestions. Don't assume that
everyone is just hunky dory anddoing fine. But actually ask

(46:44):
people what is your experiencewith this? And then listen to
their answers. We don't do thatenough.

Bill Duane (46:51):
Hmm. And I think to your point is, you know, if we
don't do it, then the obviousquestion is, why not? And in
some of the things that we'vetalked about so far is that one
is we don't even know thatthere's something to talk about,
we don't see the soap bubble.
Two, is, it's really can bereally scary to reach out
towards the soap bubble,particularly when other people

(47:14):
are watching. And then from, youknow, the actor standpoint, to
use your your methodology, thatonce the soap bubble pops, it
can be so painful that we justwant to forget the whole fucking
thing. Yep. And

Roxy Manning (47:27):
Yes, yes. And that's why I think, like in this
model that I present in my book,the first part of any kind of
dialogue about this is our innerwork. We can't actually have a
dialogue with somebody else,without being clear on what's
the approach that I want totake? What's the consciousness,
maybe Nonviolent Communication?
Or what I also call BelovedCommunity? What's that approach

(47:49):
to being with people that I wantto take? And then where are the
places where I'm holdingjudgment, where I'm holding fear
that's getting in the way of mywillingness to step into these
conversations? And what can I doto support me so that I can do
it a little bit less fearfully.
A little bit.

Bill Duane (48:07):
Right. Yeah. So what are your favorite ways for
developing that self awareness?
That understanding of one's owninternal state, so you end up
with a dowsing stick or ameasuring device to, to handle
both ones, And, you know, one'sown end of it? And then

(48:27):
presumably, afterwards, otherpeople's reactions?

Roxy Manning (48:32):
Yes, I'll talk about a couple. So you, you
meditate. So I think that'sdefinitely a great one, just
being able to observe mythoughts. And I think nowadays,
that is so much harder to do. Ihave a friend, Oren Jay Sofer,
who he's got a book coming outalso, that's on meditation, and
like kind of meditativepractices, 26 practices that can

(48:54):
help us. And one of the ones hetalks about is attention. And we
no longer have attention. We'realways distracting ourselves
from our thoughts. We're goingto our devices, where there's so
many things that pull ourattention away. And if I'm not
paying attention, even to thethoughts that are hard, I'm
never going to become aware ofthem. So just slowing down,

(49:16):
emptying my mind, payingattention to what's floating
through my mind. Not likegrasping onto it, but just
noticing what's there and givingit space to be known is really
important. So a meditativepractice can be really helpful.
Another one that's connected toNonviolent Communication is, and
I tell people, like maybe everyhour, it could be at the top of

(49:38):
the hour, bottom of the hour,just regular frequency. Pause
whatever you're doing and say,What am I feeling in this very
moment? And what do I need? Andthere's a whole list of
Nonviolent Communication needs.
I'd have to talk a little bitmore about what that is, but
even just understanding what'slike the core thing that's
motivating me in this moment canhelp us start to connect with

(50:01):
our inner world in a way thatwe're often not aware of. We're
often taking actions withoutunderstanding what's motivating
those actions. So checking in onthat can be really helpful.

Bill Duane (50:16):
And it's, you know, neurobiologically training those
two things actually gives youagain, this idea that it can be
very tender, the scienceactually gives me a little bit
more confidence that when youdevelop these abilities to know
your cognitive and your internalstates, you not only get the
self awareness, but also selfregulation. I think there's

(50:38):
there's a fear, particularlysome some gender training, that
if we, if you take the lid offthe emotions, it'll be like one
of those joke, peanut hands wereall the snakes come flying out.
So for me, just to know thatintrinsically, that self
awareness generates selfregulation using those methods.
And also other like, it's thesame, like if you know, your

(50:59):
own, and I would, I would add tothat, the somatic internal
interoceptive awareness. If youbegin to learn, like when you're
angry, how do you know you'reangry? You know, part of it
might be, you know, thecognitive part you're
mentioning, where you're justlike, wow, I'm really swearing
in that person a lot in myinternal voice, but also these
feelings, these theseintuitions. And I think

(51:23):
interestingly, doing thistraining in service of getting
better at whatever that meansalso, then allows us to hold
some of these sensations ofwhen, you know, the inquiry
turns into something that'schallenging to hold, then the
ability to hold that. And say,Oh, this is what this feels

(51:45):
like, whether that be shame, orregret, and being able to then
to then hold it. So I think Ithink this somatic part, that
feeling in is, is really, reallyimportant. And, you know, going
back to this idea of individualversus community. On the
negative side, people can reallylive in our heads, which is a

(52:07):
bummer. But on the positiveside, our ability to co regulate
each other. So if there's aneutral person involved in who
you're talking about in thecontext of microaggressions,
generally, there's somebody whodoesn't have a dog in the fight,
or it doesn't have strongemotions, the ability of that
person to then co regulate theother two people. One is I think

(52:29):
this is good for the heart, goodfor the soul. And it's also good
for highly productive groups. Itisn't an when I say productive,
I don't even mean it necessarilyin the in the work sense, but to
have these have these roles.

Roxy Manning (52:42):
Well, you've just said so much that I'm really
like, yes, yes, yes, reallyenjoy. First, this piece about
sensations, it's huge. Part ofwhat's coming to mind for me is
like I can't control anythingabout my reactions, if I don't
allow myself to notice them andfeel them. So we can't control
something that I don't see. AndI need to be able to know like

(53:05):
for me, I noticed that when Istart getting tense in my
shoulders, I pause, I just takethat as a sign that okay, my
anger is going up, I need topause, breathe, and then check
in. Not automatically say, thatperson's making me angry, but
what's important to me rightnow, right. So this helps me to
have enough awareness so I canaccess choice about how I want

(53:27):
to move forward in thatsituation. The other piece that
felt really important, was theimportance of community. We need
to be able to serve each other.
I like me, this feels soimportant to me, I, there's much
I want to say about it. I wantto be able to if I'm a member of

(53:47):
a team, I want to be able tooffer the moments when I am
feeling grounded, when I am notupset by what's going on, in
service to everyone else on theteam. So being able to listen to
like, if you come to me and sayRoxy, I'm so mad at this person,
they did this and you're full ofjudgment, one of the gifts I can

(54:09):
give you is to listen to what'simportant to you, to empathize
with you without buying intoyour story. And too often on
teams, I see us listening to theperson and almost like egging
them on. Yeah, they were a badperson, they were wrong to do
that, rather than getting to theheart of what's wrong. Oh, this
is what was important to you.

(54:31):
This is what you valued. Thiswas what you were needing, which
helps the person connect towhat's important to them, and
then helps them return tochoice. So it's not just around
showing up and like saying I'mgoing to be there and present,
but showing up in a veryintentional way that I'm showing
up to empathize and to connectto the heart of what's true for
this person.

Bill Duane (54:56):
Amazing so, you know, I'm saying thinking that
we're, we're heading in adirection that brings out
something that's very profoundbut also, I think, very
counterintuitive. That, youknow, in order to be really good
at innovating in any domain,that there's an intersection of

(55:19):
vulnerability and conflict. Youknow, everything that you've
been saying around this is somebeautiful dance, a tender,
challenging dance aroundvulnerability. Like, I don't
think any of the methods thateither of us have described are
possible without some degree ofvulnerability. But we also

(55:40):
talked in a real way, thatvulnerability is really hard in
some of these and that conflict,we mentioned is, in some ways,
an inevitable arising ofdifferent points of view, and
what you said about differentexperiences. So I'd love to hear

(56:01):
your thoughts on you know, this,this, this this very tender and
delicate intersection ofvulnerability and conflict.

Roxy Manning (56:11):
Yeah. Well, when I think about vulnerability, let's
start there. Especially whenwe're talking about DEI and
diversity and having diverseworkgroups, I want to
acknowledge that there's adegree of vulnerability
required, it's almost necessarythat the person who's coming

(56:32):
into that group, who is quote,different, who's not part of
whatever that normative cultureis, that's different than the
amount of vulnerablevulnerability required of the
folks who are established inthat group. And so I always want
to be mindful of who we'reasking to continue to be
vulnerable. In both cases,vulnerability is necessary. But

(56:56):
what I often see happen is thatthe person who is quote, the
outsider is the person who'sasked to, you know, be able and
speak up and share what you'reneeding, be vulnerable, and let
us know when it's not workingfor you. And so they're doing
all the work, they're doing thevulnerability labor for the
group, and then the rest of thegroup gets, you know, they still
have to respond to whatever getsstirred up for them when this

(57:18):
person speaks, but it's a mucheasier position to be in. So I
want groups to be reallymindful, like, am I putting all
of the labor on the person whois the outsider in this moment,
to be the one to be vulnerable,to be brave to show up and do
the work that's necessary forour group to gel and thrive? And

(57:39):
that's, like you said, superconnected to conflict. Because
whenever there's a conflict, Ihave to show up in terms of
being vulnerable. And the personor the receiver has to show up
if they want to name vulnerably,what's happening, the actor has
to show up with theirvulnerability about how they're
receiving this, what's coming upfor them, and then choose to
focus on the conflict. Now, alot of people have talked about

(58:02):
things like if we're talkingabout the AI stuff, right? One
aspect of the DEI is racism,people talk about white
fragility all the time. And forme, that's a place where that
vulnerability collapses us intoshame. Rather than I can be
vulnerable, I can notice stuff,and I can still show up and work
on the issue. So I want us to beable to acknowledge that

(58:24):
vulnerability is necessary, andto still choose who we're asking
to be vulnerable. And torecognize that vulnerability
doesn't have to paralyze us. Itdoesn't have to prevent us from
getting to the toughconversations. So one of the
invitations I have for folks whoare part of that normative
group, is to think about, whatcan I do? What can I say? What

(58:46):
can I ask that will take on someof that vulnerability labor. It
might feel really edgy for me tosay, I noticed you've been
really quiet. I'm wondering ifthere's some way that I'm
showing up that's making it hardfor you to, to speak or to get a
word in edgewise. Right? That'sa vulnerable thing to ask. I'm
opening myself up to sayingactually, yeah, you haven't shut

(59:08):
up since I walked into the roomor whatever it is, I might want
to say. But take that risk. Bevulnerable in this way. Make it
easy for us to find those placesof conflict and name them.

Bill Duane (59:20):
I love that and it echoes back a little bit and to
what we were saying before is ifthere's a person who has excess
capacity in some way to thenlend that to the other people in
the group. So one is the ideathat if you know if you have the
knowledge that to bring up anissue is a much heavier lift

(59:43):
than generally it is to hear anissue is what I was what I was
hearing from that. And then torealize that, oh, I have
something to give again, thatidea of offloading. So maybe,
maybe a refinement of, of thisidea of vulnerability of
conflict would be, is thevulnerability evenly

(01:00:04):
distributed?

Roxy Manning (01:00:05):
Yes.

Bill Duane (01:00:07):
Right. So if we want to say what are the habits of a
team that's going to be amazingat innovation? That's that's a
real mind opener for me is tobecome aware of what's the
degree of vulnerability? And Ithink it's the only way to find
out is to ask I think or. Andthen this gets back to what's a
method of asking, Well funnyit's this Nonviolent

(01:00:27):
Communication thing. But I lovethat idea that if we're if we're
really thoughtful about this,about the vulnerability. So one
is, what is everyone's capacity?
You know, the way I teach thisto new managers is you want to
be as direct as possible,without the drawbridge going up.
As soon as the drawbridge goesup, then the communication has
stopped and you need to put thedrawbridge down or back off for

(01:00:49):
a while. And who's being askedto keep the drawbridge up or up
or down what percentage of thetime? Wow, that's a real,
that's a real learning for me.

Roxy Manning (01:01:03):
Great, great.

Bill Duane (01:01:07):
So one of the reasons why both of us talked
about that this work is soimportant to us is a recognition
that we're in a deeply historictime. And that there's really
big consequences. And, you know,I think things are up in the air
in a way that they haven't beenprobably in about two
generations. And looping back tothe earlier part of the

(01:01:31):
conversation, this is theopportunity for freedom and
degrees of freedom that wereunavailable before. But that
doesn't necessarily mean thatthe movie is going to have a
happy ending, you know, thingscould come down either way. And
both of us have a very sinceredesire to arm young leaders,
maybe someone in their in their20s, who stepping into this

(01:01:54):
world that was created for themwithout as much care. Thinking
back on everything that we'vethat we've done so far, and
knowing that it's falling ontheir shoulders truly, to lift
this burden, what would you wishfor a young leader in their 20s
who's stepping into this space?

Roxy Manning (01:02:16):
This, this question feels especially
meaningful for me because I havea 24 year old child. And I think
about the world that he's goingto inherit, and what he needs to
do to lead us through, he andall his generation through these
coming years. And what I wantfor these young leaders is,
first the capacity to do thatself inquiry, right? To notice

(01:02:41):
both what's going, on what's mytruth, what am I needing? And to
feel comfortable to reach outand ask for help. I think you
mentioned earlier, this kind ofindividualistic ethos, that's
part of US and Western culture.
And we can't fix this alone, weneed to be able to say like,
sometimes I might be triggered,I might be upset, I might feel

(01:03:03):
hopeless. And I need to be ableto reach out to other people,
for support, for reflection, forreinvigoration of hope, if
necessary. So that's one of thebig things that they want us to
know that it's okay to do theinner work to self connect, to
connect to our emotions, and letthat help us understand when

(01:03:24):
we're needing to access moresupport. The other piece is, in
some ways, what we've beentalking about this whole
conversation. That I want everyyoung leader to recognize that
they, regardless of where theyare in the world is growing up
with a very specific context.

(01:03:45):
And that the only way we get outof this mess, is when we start
to be curious about what are allof the other puzzle pieces that
I need to become aware of, andput on the table if we're going
to find a solution for what'snecessary. We're never going to
fix this by only relying on thethings that we know that we've
learned from whatever contextwe've grown up in. We've got to

(01:04:07):
stretch out and reach for thatkind of innovative, creative and
diverse perspectives we simplycan't have access to in the
worlds, that in the context thatwe're moving in.

Bill Duane (01:04:22):
I think it's absolutely true and a great way
of tying together everythingthat we've spoken about wanted
to finish with a note of intensegratitude for you. You know,
I've so much to learn there andI think this idea that you know

(01:04:42):
DEI work is not in a silo.
Being good at DEI is being goodat being a human. It's being
good at rising to the challengesof the day. And it's not
separate out its own thing. AndI think the the you know for
people that are in establishedpositions, you know, just to
realize that everything we justtalked about is under attack, a

(01:05:06):
very well organized, dismantlingDEI, all of this. And so if if
you know, for the folks that arelistening, if you were struck by
this vision of what we need togive 20 year old leaders, it's
exactly this for the mostpractical of reasons and for the
most ethical and moral ofreasons. It's it's not it's not

(01:05:30):
skippable. So if you're sayingyes, if you're listening to this
and saying, Yes, I believe this,then I think there's some work
to be done in protecting thesenascent ways of communicating
with each other. And again,there's systems and
organizational things that needto be that need to be stood up
for. And that's part of the workof then having the the fruit of

(01:05:53):
what we've been describing, beavailable for these young
leaders.

Roxy Manning (01:06:01):
Thank you, Bill.

Bill Duane (01:06:07):
All right. Thanks so much for being on the podcast.

Roxy Manning (01:06:11):
I've enjoyed it. I want to say how awed I am at the
breadth of knowledge that youbring to this work, and your
ability to see all of thedifferent threads like when I
talked about innovation being somany things, you bring together
a lot of different fields ofinnovation that we need in order
to transcend this moment. Thankyou.

Bill Duane (01:06:32):
Beautiful. Thank you.