Curiosity, empathy and and cross cultural innovation with Cliff Scott

Cross cultural efforts can be a minefield. Cliff's areas of geographic focus are mainly post colonial countries in Asia. As a white dude American, Cliff knows the pitfalls. What's surprising the how these challenges can become an innovation superpower via the intention of care and the skills of empathy and cognitive perspective taking.

Cliff is most passionate about helping teams and organizations through transformations, enabling them to succeed in new levels of complexity.  Supporting leaders in their ability to rise to the challenges of rapid change when prior ways of leading seem to fall short is some of the most joyful work he does.  He believes those who find deeper connection to their purpose and practice ways of deepening their self-awareness are able to see and let go of beliefs and assumptions limiting their effectiveness as leaders.  He finds joy in helping others look inward with courage to encounter what holds them back to release themselves from what hinders their greatness.

His practice ranges from online and in-person leadership program design and delivery  as well as executive and team/cohort coaching. Clients worked with have been in major manufacturing, hi tech, bio tech, pharmaceutical, telecommunications, land development, financial services, US Navy, including start-ups, family run conglomerates, mid size and Fortune 500 companies in the US, Europe, Australia and SE Asia. He is trained in Presence-based and Growth Edge coaching methods, also is certified to use Leadership Circle framework of assessments and the MBTI. He is also a member of the global faculty for Leadership Circle Certifications.

Intro and Outro music kind courtesy of Taraval.

Episode Transcript

Bill Duane (00:00):
Hi, welcome to the heart of innovation Podcast. I'm
Bill Duane former Googleengineering executive and
Superintendent of wellbeing andcourage consultant and speaker
on innovation strategy. We'regoing to be diving deep into the
internal innovation that unlocksexternal innovation, and the
surprisingly practical ways wecan become better innovators.
We'll be in conversation withinnovators from many different

(00:22):
backgrounds and contextsincluding business, science,
social change and technology,and not only benefit from their
expertise, but also theirpersonal stories of their
innovation journey. Today, weget to talk with clip Scott
cliff is a seasoned consultantin helping organizations through
transformations enabling them tosucceed and new levels of
complexity. He supports leadersand their ability to rise to the

(00:44):
challenges of rapid change whenprior ways of eating seem to
fall short. He believes thosewho find deeper connection to
their purpose and practice waysof deepening their self
awareness are able to see andlet go of beliefs and
assumptions limiting theireffectiveness as leaders, he
finds joy in helping others lookinward with courage to encounter
what holds them back to releasethemselves from what hinders

(01:05):
their greatness. Join us now, aswe talked about ways that cross
cultural interaction presentsrisks and opportunities for
innovation.
All right, so welcome to theheart of innovation podcast
cliff.

Cliff Scott (01:20):
Well, thank you for inviting me. It's a first for me
to be interviewed this way. Sothis is fun. Oh, excellent.
Yeah, hopefully, I hope it will,it will be fun.

Bill Duane (01:30):
So when we first met via an organization called
cultivating leadership, one ofthe things that really jumped
out at me was the degree towhich you do your coaching and
strategy work cross culturally,mostly in Asia, I'm wondering
how that came to be about how asa, as an American guy, you ended

(01:54):
up one having an interest andthen to spending so much of your
professional life there?

Cliff Scott (02:02):
Well, it's actually very serendipitous I was working
as the project manager for aglobal leadership development
program that we had created formajor high tech company and in
Santa Clara. And the they had aninstitute, they have their own
educational center, and themanager and the head of the

(02:23):
management wing of the institutewas Filipino. And he had
witnessed how I had taken thesupply chain organization
through not only a course, butwe decided to purpose that
course to help that team cometogether in a way it hadn't been
before, it led to a wholesalereengineering of their

(02:46):
operation, which, which totallyimproved them and made them a
rock star in your own company.
And, and then shortly after thatthey had a layoff because there
was a bit of a downturn. My mic,my manager, you know, my, my
client manager, went back to thePhilippines and took a job as
the head of human resources. Forthe second the largest telco,

(03:12):
telco in, in the Philippines.
And when he got there, this is2004. He, he realized the
executive team was kind of in amess. They, they had, they had
the curse and the blessing ofhaving achieved a five year
strategy and three years flat,and they were were floundering,

(03:35):
like what's next. It resulted ina kind of anon wiki setting in
and some politics and so heasked me if I could come and
help them come together and reexamine their vision and stuff.
And he said, Look, it'llprobably be a week, every month
for about six months, nothingmore than that, will you be
willing to do it? And I thought,Well, why not? And so I took it

(04:00):
on. And, and very quickly foundthat the level of engagement
that the senior managers that Iwas interviewing was super high
was as if they were hungry forhelp with some kind wide open.
And in so it's very rewarding.
The the, the engagement, goneabout three months in and and

(04:26):
they began to ask me to do otherthings. I mean, very soon I was
cascading programs down intodifferent business units. And
well, before I knew it, I hadjoined the Asian century, if you
will, and I was full timeworking with them and not
employed but I was on my as aconsultant, I was flat out. And

(04:50):
I asked myself, What am I doinghere? And I thought, well, I you
know, anything else I've beendoing up until now? I've is
repeated everything else I'veever done. Why not try this?

Bill Duane (05:05):
And how old were you? When, when this opportunity
opened? 63? Right. 5353 Yeah, soit really speaks to this idea of
leaving things open. So a fewthings, even immediately out of
that story jumped out at me. Oneis the sometimes subtle ways

(05:30):
that having diversity in seniorleadership opens up paths that
wouldn't already be there hadyour head the, you know, your
client boss, in the consultingeffort not been Filipino, there
would have been no idea of therewould have been no bridge, there
would have been no obvious wayto transit, the skill set you

(05:51):
had to this other domain. Andthen it doesn't take too much
imagination to say, you know, ifif the senior leadership is
sprinkled with people fromdifferent backgrounds, what
other not just ideas or pointsof view, but like what other
room what other contexts,context shifts might be
available?

Cliff Scott (06:12):
Well, they The Philippines is by and large, a
mono culture. So everybody onthe executive team was Filipino,
born born and bred. So thediversity was me. And, and, and,
and I encountered over theensuing months and even years,

(06:36):
the, the, the fact that I wasthe only white man in the room,
and I was the minority. But atthe same time being a Westerner,
you know, it comes with acachet, and people have a high
regard for us. So it wasn't thesame as being marginalized. It
was really this what it was isdo you really understand us? How

(06:57):
do you distinct How do youunderstand the heart of the
Filipino? I would say that therewas a lot of effort that I
needed to put into reallylistening deeply to the logic
that supports the, you know, theideas and or the the belief
systems that they were operatingwith as leaders. Where it comes

(07:20):
from, I had to do some reading.
There was a great sociologistwho had really written some good
books around what what does itmean for Westerners to do
business in the Philippines? Andwhat do you need to know about
Philippine psychology as a, as apost colonial country, totally
overwhelmed by the Spanish anddepressed by them for hundreds

(07:43):
of years? So there was there wasa lot of learning there and a
lot of suspending my own senseof what are these right answers,
because they're not, forinstance, I was I met a woman
who became a sidekick of mine tohelp me with some of the

(08:03):
projects and she was transitinginto a role as an OD consultant
and asked me to help her learnhow to do that. And I was using
the word accountability, youhave to you have to really honor
the accountabilities that you'regiven, blah, blah, blah, she
said, Don't say accountability,it comes with judgment and risk.
The sense of the sense of youhave something that if you don't

(08:27):
achieve it, you'll be punishedfor it just it just strikes the
Filipino ear that way. She said,don't hold them accountable,
hold them successful. That'sbeautiful, isn't it? Hold them
successful, every bit ofcriticism is because I have your
back, I want to see you grow. Ididn't see potential in you. I'm

(08:49):
simply trying to help you getthere. As opposed to you're
doing it wrong. Again.

Bill Duane (09:01):
There's also a bit of paternalism in that frame of
I know, and you don't, and I'mgoing to correct you until you
get which then especially canreally play into some of those
cultural racial dynamics of Iknow when you don't.

Cliff Scott (09:20):
Yeah. And when you do that their sense of risk
rises very high, the sense ofpossible shame. When when the
Filipinos are put in a situationwhere they're caught being
wrong, or incompetent, theydon't lose face, they, they,
they it's worse than that thereit goes right to the center of

(09:43):
their identity where they canfeel like I have just been
shamed in front of others. It'ssomething that's harder to
recover from. And so they tryvery hard never to get into that
situation. I think it's probablyProbably a style of self defense
that is waning when then in thein the younger generations. But

(10:09):
I think it's also because thatculture of oppression was still
lingering, the trauma of that Ithink was still lingering worth.
It's never, never okay to bewrong.

Bill Duane (10:23):
Yeah, it's come up in multiple conversations around
cultures that have a really bigshame component. And I think
it's it's generally true a lotof talking about a huge
diversity of cultures to saythat Asian cultures tend to
orient more towards that, thatidea of shame. On the one hand,
shame is really good at creatingsocial cohesion because it's so

(10:47):
powerful social cohesion of acertain point. But yet,
actually, I ran into this alsoworking in Russia, where failure
was punished so severely, so youhave this sort of these
undercurrents, these undergroundcurrents that shame is not only
bad, but when you bring it tothe level of identity, it's that

(11:09):
it's annihilation. It's worsethan screwing up.

Cliff Scott (11:13):
Yes, right. And I think they're that is the thing,
the fear of being annihilated,they're, they're who they are,
their value, their, theirpersona collapsing, and then who
the hell am I anyway, I'm notanybody anymore. Literally,
there have been situations wheresomebody criticized but walk out
of the job and not come back.
No.

Bill Duane (11:34):
Yeah, I get it. I mean, in my own personal work,
you know, there's the stuff I'mafraid of. And then there's the
stuff that triggers annihilationfears, which is non rational,
there's a lot of situationswhere I would literally rather
be dead. Like that would be andI think, you know, when I think
about people who are, you know,really in the desperate ends, I

(11:56):
can only imagine that's thecalculation that's taking place.
And, you know, to understandthat I think this mapping of
like, well, what's myannihilation, like, where,
where's that point, and ifyou've ever read Dune, but
there's a line in Dune, there'sa space within us that we're
afraid to even look into. So.
And I think what's different isthat the nature of that, which

(12:20):
again, goes beyond fear, tounderstand that, that the
tendencies for that to reside inone situation would differ from
individual to individual, butalso that those individuals are
trained by cultures. And the thepoint of getting around to is,
so many methods of managingcomplexity and ambiguity, for

(12:45):
innovation, absolutely requireyou to make concrete moves when
you don't know. And, you know,in the case of my clients in
Russia, they were veryinterested in becoming an agile
financial services organization.

(13:08):
And but at the same time,punishment was so severely SRE
failure was so severely punishedthat everyone kept their little
projects hidden until they weresurvivable, and then revealed
them to the rest of the world,which really puts an inhibitor
on cross division crossfunctional ideas that might

(13:32):
serve the entire organization asopposed to that, but I really
wanted to honor I mean, this wasthis his spare bank, the largest
bank in Eastern Europe, and sortof I had a moment like your
point, I'm like, Well, man, theyreally need to get over this.
And then I thought, holy shit,Stalin was their main
stakeholder for a point. This isa bank that's 120 years old, and

(13:54):
I'm like, okay, okay, maybemaybe I get it a little more.
But yeah, that idea of of whatare the cultural points and it's
interesting, this is stuff thatyou see in, in western stuff,
the book difficult conversationsmentions that there's three
levels to a conversation thewhat level which is where

(14:14):
Western business usuallyoperates at the feelings
conversation, which is sometimesbut then that third part is the
identity and I think theidentity is the greatest source
of power like a union shadow,but also the biggest point of
just these no go areas that wemay not be

Cliff Scott (14:37):
aware of. Yeah, yeah. Well, I the first, the
first four years of my myjourney through three and a half
years through in thePhilippines, had me constantly
engaged in more and moreexpansive work not only was

(14:57):
expanding down through the ranksin You know, where I was asked
to help to business businessunits learn how to work together
with some trust and that kind ofthing. And, and, you know,
designing workshops that reallygot people to learn how to
listen deeply to one another anddevelop some compassion for one
another. One of the things thathappened was, you know, can you

(15:20):
coach exec a particularexecutive as flagging. And I, up
until that point, I never reallythought of myself as an
executive coach, in other than Iwas really more of a systems
change agent. cultural change.
And in the course of doing that,I knew that the top leader, at
least I had to guide as byteaching them what it means to

(15:40):
be a change leader, becausethey've only ever been managing
a stable situation. And so I wasbeginning to coach and I think
they'd be, they just startedhanding me some of the more
difficult cases, one of thethings I learned is that the
standard kind of 360 assessmentcan tell them what they're

(16:05):
strongly weakened, but thatdoesn't really help. Because
when they try to becomestronger, more self assertive,
more, more vocal about their ownperspectives, they were
constantly taking the risk thatwhat would happen is others
would become disaffected, theywould be unhappy with them, you

(16:25):
weren't pleasing anymore, you'resupposed to, you know, you're
you're putting us on the spot,and that makes us feel like
we're wrong. Because you're,you're chastising the
organization for a system that'sbroken. And so they would very
quickly retreat into their oldstyle, and I was stuck trying to
figure out, what can I do here,that gets underneath the

(16:49):
surface, so that they can beginto see their belief system. And
that led me to the leadershipcircle assessment. And, and
that, that just changed the gamecompletely. Because what it did
is, is expose their beliefsystem, in ways that was
undeniable, it would show that,in fact, they have huge scores

(17:12):
and all the function all theaspects of complying, pleasing
paths of belonging, and thatmade it possible to discuss why
is that what's at risk for you,if you stop being that way, and
that changed the conversationcompletely. And what I found was
that, because I was an outsider,I wasn't a part of any social

(17:37):
circle within the Philippines,they would be willing to tell me
things that they wouldn't daretell anybody else because it
would hit the gossip circuit, inthe great gossip culture. And
and so suddenly, they began tosee there is a way outside a way

(17:57):
out of the pain and thesuffering of me trying
constantly to be not caught outnot Not, not lose my place. My
Status, my stature, my, mypositive regard, I get, there's
a way I can do this, there's apathway and, and my entire
coaching process began to shift,basically, based on also

(18:22):
learning a lot about adult stagedevelopment, there a very hungry
culture for that kind of help.
And, and then I also discoveredsomething else that if one
person is feels it's too riskyto change, why not talk the
company into taking the entirecohorts of leaders who are

(18:45):
interdependent together, throughthe program through a program.
So the way you're an outlier isif you don't get on the boat,
that takes that journey of selfawareness and, you know,
collective commitment to changein a sense, that hooks their

(19:07):
deep need to be belong, to putthem on a boat that's going to
show them how not to need tobelong anymore. And so I learned
that working with leadershipteams, opened up avenues and
horizons and created a safety innumbers kind of experience where

(19:30):
the, what people went through interms of coaching and there's
learning concepts that that areattached to the you know, what
makes a highly effective leader.
They just were very hungry, veryearnest, and really worked their
asses off to to shift theirbehavior. Because they they had

(19:50):
they had they had come by ontheir their their brothers in
Then the whole journey withthem. So those are some of the
learnings that made me kind ofeffective there. And I think
what I would say to them is, youknow, believe a lot of Western
ideas, and a lot of them don'treally work in Asian cultures.

(20:12):
But unfortunately, the world'sglobal economy is running more
on a Western template. So if youare connected company intends to
be regionally or globallycompetitive, you've got to be
able to keep pace with the chainadaptiveness and innovation,
that companies from other partsof the world that are actually

(20:36):
invading your territory are. Soit's, it's remember, what's
what's dear to you about yourown culture can stay within any
Can you can revel in it at homeand with friends. But when you
come to work, you're probablygoing to have to be more
courageous, and more open andmore vulnerable and not take it

(20:58):
personally not believe that ifyou're wrong, it means you're no
good, but rather, you now knowsomething you didn't know
before, which is, this doesn'twork. Let's try something else.
Right? So.

Bill Duane (21:13):
So a couple of things really stood out at me.
One is, I'm just, I'm just veryimpressed with those stories.
Because each each thing I'mgonna comment on is a potential
hole that you didn't fall intovia skillfulness. And so the

(21:35):
first one was, white dude comesin tells brown people how to do
it, right. And even if you don'thave that as your intention, it
can certainly even even withquite pure intention. So you
know, the thing you said thatwas quite beautiful, is anything
that is offered is offered inservice of your well being. So I

(21:56):
think I think that is anorientation. And then you didn't
mention this explicitly. But Iheard it implicitly, I'd love to
know if I, if I'm guessing,right, is that when you landed,
you saw that as a possibility,and had a sense that that's not
functional, that there are otherfactors at play, that I can

(22:17):
observe, I'm not sure of whatthey are, or what their causal
relationships are, but they'rethere to be felt are observed
and noted. And I suspect they'regoing to get in the way. So one
is that awareness. And then twois how do you deal with it
before it would have been Oh,just snap to what I learned in

(22:38):
business school, because that'sthe best practice. Instead, what
I heard is, you know, youmanaged to do the UNO reverse
card on on the white dudeworking with brown people and
instead said, Oh, I am theminority. Let me let me say how

(23:00):
I might be of service in thissituation. And the last thing I
wanted to comment on is that,you know, in going through this
deep learning experience,there's such implicit in what
you're saying is, there's such arespect for the people in the
culture, but also a willingnessto call out the shadow of, you

(23:21):
know, the shame doesn't serveyou doesn't serve us. And then
so instead of really leaninginto the corrective intention,
and mindset, instead, theservice mindset, and the last
thing that I really heard wasthe conjoining of those of like,

(23:42):
if you're alone, it's not safe.
If you're with us, we are as agroup, safe, and what a skillful
way to use everyone's culture,or, you know, the dominant
culture that you were talkingabout, of de risking it. And
because I think one of thethings that's so challenging in

(24:04):
doing any of the kind of workthat we've been describing,
which I think is particularlytrue and innovation when what
you're trying to do is new anddisjoint from what was done in
the past, was how do you switchfrom me to we, when confronted
with ambiguity and change andthe stuff we're good at no
longer being effective for us?

(24:28):
Be we collapse, I'm projectingprobably I collapse I can
collapse into I me mine, whereassolution sets that involve we so
what I heard you say in thatspecific is, you're actually
using the tool set of theculture around you to say, It's
better with we,

Cliff Scott (24:45):
yeah, well, recognizing that there's value
and we and you know, becausethey prize the way they prize
harmony, they prize fellowshipand they they will suppress
conflict. to their detriment,because it seems. So
professionally, it seems likeit's going to risk everything.

(25:07):
And, and because they haven'tbuilt great capacity to handle
conflict, well, they're, they'reactually right. But if you can
talk to them and teach them howto listen to one another in ways
that let go of defensiveness.
And allow yourself to say whatyou need to say. And notice that

(25:30):
you've really been heard by theother without criticism. Without
naysaying, but rather justplaying back, here's what I
understood, is that what youmeant, yes, that, that elevated
that kind of dialogue, you know,elevated the level of trust very
rapidly. And what they began tofeel like this is, this is us

(25:51):
being we, but it's a strongerway. So that the what, what I
did was I flipped the risk ofbelonging, using the of not
belonging into joining theeffort to become more, more,
more, well, more open, I don'tlike the word vulnerability, but

(26:15):
yeah, it acts as if it's almosta statement of weakness, the
person who can be open isstronger than the person who
can't be. And the being we'reable to show a vulnerability and
withstand or stand through it, Ithink is, is really one of the
key lessons that they wouldlearn during, in the work that

(26:39):
we did together. And it wasn't atheme that would have ever come
up and work with a westernaudience for sure. But but it
definitely, you know, was forthem. And so now the gift in
their need to belong together isthat when they switch into a

(27:00):
highly effective team, wherethey're very open about what
they're seeing, that needs to beimproved, what and very willing
to admit what needs to beapproved. It's astonishing, just
how fast and how seamlessly,they can accomplish things that
you would expect it take a lotlonger. For instance, the bank

(27:22):
that I mentioned to you and Iwas visiting with you that went
through a transformation fromof, you know, an old blind
retail outfit to essentially alarge FinTech at least in terms
of all of their consumer side,not the, you know, not the
business side or the investmentbank. The when the leadership as
a group, were able to let go oftheir sense of, I must be this

(27:49):
or if I'm not this, I'm, I'mscrewed. And this might be
always the one who knows better,or always the one who's too
super in control. Because, youknow, you can end up with a very
hierarchical patriarchal, youknow, the people who rise to the
top, they weren't so worriedabout whether they belong
because of their status, theycould become brutally autocratic

(28:12):
when they realized that thatwasn't helpful, and, and the
people who are more compliantrealized that wasn't helpful,
and that they didn't need itanymore. They were able to
embrace an agile engagement withone of the major companies that

(28:33):
does this at Deloitte. And itwas, it was a super fast
transformation, everything theylearned they could immediately
recognizes, this is what itmeans to be creative, not
reactive. This is what this is,these are the ways in which we
can do it. In other words, itgave them a way of operating
together that operationalizetheir shifting mindset. And the

(28:56):
result of that was they had hada, they went from a period of
time in which over nine months,they had, in very dysfunctional
ways released new projects thatfail products that failed
repeatedly, to in the next sixmonths, releasing seven or eight
products that were winners. And,and they just never stopped. I

(29:23):
mean, at that point, they justthey just revolutionized what
people think of as banking inthe Philippines. It was a very
fast transformation. I hadanother client in the US
actually that had amanufacturing group in in the
Philippines. It was buildingcomponents for air, airlines,

(29:43):
you know, Bathroom, bathroomstructures. This group was
handled by a white manager fromthe US who I think had a very
similar mindset to mine. deeplycompassionate a want to learn
how, what what makes what makesyou feel good, and what success

(30:04):
looks like for you. And thatthat group of 30 people turned
into a manufacturing powerhouse,they achieved something that the
home office was just blown awayby, they couldn't figure out how
did you do that? From a emptywarehouse to a fulfilled order
for a major airline. In, in, insix months and nine months, I

(30:27):
think it was nine months and,and was just a blowout success.
What I noticed. So I guess whatI'm saying is that there are
stories about Filipinos thatwhen they pull together and they
lose their fear, they haveawesome capabilities. Just
awesome. Keep very innovativethinkers, very creative. You
know, figuring out, well, theyhave these Jeepneys on the road,

(30:53):
right? These things that caughtyour eye. A lot of these cars
are 20 or 30 years old, theykeep them together, like they
with very low budgets. So it'san example.

Bill Duane (31:06):
Well, it's, it's funny, one of the things I love
about Jeepneys in thePhilippines is the wild and
amazing creativity. So inaddition, as you mentioned,
keeping these you know, verysimple I think a lot of them are
two stroke engines going youknow, it's sort of like the the
cars in Cuba, it's a really goodengineering, you know, sort of

(31:30):
MacGyver enterprise, but to aperson seemingly someone said,
Yes, you know, the Jeepney runswell, and it's consuming little
enough fuel for I can make, youknow, I can make money off of
it. And I can run my route. Butvery clearly, it is lacking
Hello Kitty splashed everywhereon the outside, or Iron Man and

(31:53):
Marvel Cinematic Universe, theremight be a whole nother
discussion about the use ofintellectual property and the
GPU population for Olympians.
But one of the things I'm inlove with is that of course, it
should be fun. Like, of course,it should be there should be
some element of joyousness. ButI want to jump back before we
get too far down favorite cheapknee and, and Tuck Tuck

(32:13):
preferences. is, you know, whatyou were describing earlier was
also sets the stage for two wayconversation. You know, I like
to say like fish don't knowthey're wet. And I think until
people who are involved in somesort of enterprise for profit
nonprofit, until we go work inenvironments that are quite

(32:37):
different, we don't realize justhow just that there are some
very sharp assumptions built in.
And it's funny, if you had achance to see Marc Andreessen
published this manifesto on AI,that really does a beautiful
service of pointing out just howI me mine, that if we optimize

(33:02):
for the individual, then thegroup will automatically
benefit. And so one of thethings I've really learned is,
you know, this balance betweenthe power of the drive the
individual and self interest,you know, the return on
investment of that individualdrive becomes neutral in the
negative depending on how youcount. So for instance, you

(33:25):
might say, I me own a hatfactory. And look at my p&l
statement, the hat factory iswildly successful, everybody
downstream from you is barkingat the moon from mercury
poisoning. But that's not withinthe Imy my realm that somebody
gets an externality thatsomebody else's thing. And so
one of the things, I think that,again, with a view towards

(33:49):
strengthening, in particularAmerican or American themed
enterprises, is to learn is tolearn the lessons from other
cultures have a more contextualsense of me, of how does me
become we and one of my clientsas a stealth, Indian startup,

(34:10):
and we're really saying what arethe most beautiful parts of
Indian culture in particular,that the atomic unit of business
is not individuals pursuingtheir self interest, but groups
of people pursuing a groupinterest? And it seems like you
were just mentioning that alsoand also being you know, you
know, the, you know, deTocqueville, the French guy

(34:32):
cruised around the United Stateswondering why the American
experiment and democracy seemedto be being pulled off with a
lot less mass beheadings in ourversion of democracy, and what
he came up with was there's thisreal balance between the group
and the individual and if youoptimize too much for the

(34:53):
individual, the Commons willsuffer and so this is the person
who has a PhD. actory thatpoisons the landscape. But
that's somebody else's problem.
And he really said, you knowthat if you're too indexed on
the group, then you lose thatpower. And I think this is what
people trying to implementMarxism proved. And at the same
time, there's been a coupleexperiments in Kansas and that

(35:15):
place up in Vermont or NewHampshire, where they're trying
to set up these libertarianenclaves, that almost
immediately tipped over into,yes, you know, anything that
shared, collapsing? Has therebeen anything in this experience
that makes you want to then takethis back and be like, hey, I
really learned this aboutinnovation in Asia about letting

(35:36):
go. And in particular, one ofthe things that's that strikes
me as an outsider is veryimportant. Well, this is
happening worldwide, butparticularly in Asia, as
enterprises are being handeddown from the premium is in the
US, what would be called theboomer generation into the Gen Z
and millennials who have a quitedifferent set of values. Yeah.

Cliff Scott (36:01):
Well, no, I'm not particularly disposed to come
home, if that's what that wouldtake, you know, working with
American operations, althoughhaven't shied away from
opportunities that have beenoffered to me due to support
some, you know, some, some localengagements, some US
engagements, but they don't takeprimacy over the work I'm doing

(36:25):
abroad. And what I'm finding isthat there's a lot about
Colombian culture that is verysimilar to the Philippines. And
I think, again, you're dealingwith a culture of, there's a
culture of what's what I learnedabout in civil rights classes

(36:47):
when I was in college was thatthe very often black folks are
operating with a kind of aculture of oppression, which is
its deep sense of self doubt,especially among men in the 70s
and 80s. I don't know if it'sstill true. But the fact that
when you have your own rootsripped away from you, and being

(37:11):
told that you're not good enoughto have those, those aren't good
enough, that the only way youcan be good is if you can
approximate the white, the whiteoverlord. In other words, we
don't let you keep your names,you have to have our names. We
don't let you keep your languageor your cultural artifacts and
icons, we strip it all away andyou lose it. It takes a lot of

(37:35):
time post the departure of theoppressor for that to ever heal.
And I think both our country isstill in that process of
healing. And so is so are thecountries in Asia that were
colonized Brunei, Philippines,the ones that were colonized by

(37:58):
the Dutch were didn't suffer asmuch. So there's not much of a
legacy there. But, buteventually, it starts to wane.
Now, the the millennialgeneration and the generation
following that in thePhilippines is showing quite a
lot of what I call selfauthorship, they don't fear for

(38:18):
their value, that their value asa human being is only as good as
the persona that you canproject. They don't buy into
that at all. In fact, if theyget, you know, pushback for
having a voice, and, andexpecting that they do
meaningful work, they simplywalk away and go somewhere else,

(38:40):
they're not afraid that there'snot going to be another place to
go, they have far moreconfidence, because they have
grown up in a generation wherethere's a little bit more money
than there used to be, and thatparents are spending on things
that demonstrate to them see youhave talent, for instance, they
go to, they have art classes,they learn how to play the

(39:01):
piano, they become a tennischampion, or there can become a
gymnast that can compete andregional, regional meets all
over the all over SoutheastAsia. And when they as they grow
up, they realize I have quite astrong sense of self. And and,

(39:23):
and so I think that is washingaway slowly. But this is the
thing that one of the thingsthat I learned that I think made
me much more alert to the way inwhich white people can have have
no experience and really seeingor living life through that
lens. And it makes us ratherunconscious and and in ways that

(39:50):
show up as arrogant. One of thethings that folks would tell me
constantly about America is thatthey're both everyone It admires
America and everybody is annoyedas hell with America. America is
heedless of the harm it does.
When it when it stumbles, and,and often just steps on things

(40:13):
that they, you know, with nointerest. I think that one of
the things that really helpedme, I guess, Bill is that I've
always approached my client workwith a mindset of an
anthropologist, and I did thisbefore I got to this
Philippines, which is, firstunderstand the system,
understand the the dynamics thatare driving the politics within

(40:37):
the system. Really know what atthe heart, people believe the
theory of their businesses allabout, and, and help identify
and pay attention to the degreeto which there's dissonance
between the individuals goalsand purpose, and the and the
organization's goals andpurpose. And what the source of

(41:00):
that dissonance is. That I thinkI had to really sharpen my
skills in the Philippines, youknow, to do this, because now I
was doing it on the backfoot ofmy expertise, I had to suspend
that. You know, before we gotinto the call, you asked about

(41:21):
what about, you know, what didyou have to let go of
essentially. And what I had tolet go up was my expert mindset.
Because when I used it in as aconsultant, it in the US it got
me respect. And if I didn't comeacross with a strong sense of
expertise and certainty, thenthere were a whole lot of folks

(41:44):
who would say I'm why are wepaying this guy saw this much
money, he's, he's a, he's arookie, you really had to
demonstrate that you knew yourshit, and see better listen,
that's, that doesn't workoverseas in any context, if
you're an American, theAustralians don't want to hear
it. And even even though they'revery much like us, nor do nor do

(42:05):
you notice any other Asian orculture that I'm familiar with,
is

Bill Duane (42:15):
do you think that might be true? I'm thinking of
China in particular, were to beviewed as authoritative and
scholarly, carries so muchweight in the business world.
But maybe that's different.
Because what you were pointingwas that which could when over
extended be arrogant? Yeah,because maybe it's paired with

(42:37):
humility quite a bit. Also.

Cliff Scott (42:41):
What? What leaning too far? Yes, they want to see
that they want they wantAmerican expertise. So yes, they
really want you to show up withknowledge. But if you act as if
you know better than everybodyelse, if you act as if I'm here
to correct your way, we'restupidity. That that

(43:03):
immediately, risks. Othersfeeling like they're going to
lose space, you're you'reputting them in a position where
they can't, their own sense ofself esteem is not. It's not
tenable in the in theconversation, that's not what
and that's not what they want tohear. That's not what you came

(43:23):
here for what you came here forwas to learn about us to help us
understand what we can what canwork, what works for us, and to
teach us as deeply as youpossibly can, what works for
you, and then let us figure outhow to use that. And, and my
experience with Chineseconsultants and coaches with

(43:46):
some of the master classes thatthat we ran last year, was that
the more humble you were, themore self aware you were
especially about the the factthat just because America's
first and biggest doesn't makeit best, and willing to admit

(44:07):
that, in fact, we've got, we'vegot a lot of growing up to do
that sharing that kind ofhumility didn't damage my
authoritativeness it increasedit because I was able to share
with them that I really knewquite a lot about things like
adult stage development and, andcomplexity and, and the tools

(44:29):
that you can guide leaders touse that will help them be more
effective. And at the same timesaid, you know, there's a lot
about what we think of asauthoritative behavior that is,
can be generative. In otherwords, authority. Authoritative
is I know my stuff, but I don'tneed to impose it. I need to

(44:53):
cultivate others to step up inyou know, an authoritative Lee
There is one who recognizes thatwhat I know I need to teach, as
opposed to an autocratic leader.
And, and, and that, that as ateacher, I don't have any
illusions about the degree towhich I may be misguided and

(45:16):
this will be wrong, ormisunderstand or not be able to
fathom your experience. And sowhat I would wonder about is,
when I teach these concepts, howmight they work in your world?
And might they work in yourworld differently than they work
in ours? And that that is thething I, you know, over and

(45:42):
over, I would, again, I wouldmake that very clear that that's
the, that's the posture I wantto take. The letting go of your
certainty is an is absolutely amust, I think if for for folks
who want to step out of theirown culture and work in another.

Bill Duane (46:06):
Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a massive point. And two
points, and I'd like to share astory that I'm, I'm aware of,
then is, you know, it can be socounterintuitive, to let go of,
of one's own knowledge andauthority in, in service of, of
curiosity. But then also withthat intention of care. One, a

(46:31):
very short thing. One of thebest pieces I got of advice I
got was, oh, the higher up I amin the hierarchy, the more I
make a point to use questionmarks and emails. It is like if
I get promoted again, who knows?
Maybe it'll just be nothing butbut questions and, and
curiosity. So I think that's asuccinct way of like, it's a
good little cross check. Butalso the idea of informed

(46:54):
curiosity, I guess I would putit so do you remember when Obama
cares website launched? To usethe vernacular of my industry?
It shit the bed, which is suredid when you launch when you
launch a technical thing, andthings aren't going? Well, I

(47:16):
think the meaning of it ispretty clear even to non
technical people. So Obamacalled Eric Schmidt than CEO of
Google. And Eric called one ofmy boss who then called my
colleague and friend MikeyDickerson, who said, Can you go
over and help figure this out?

(47:37):
Now, Mikey, was in sight, rightSite Reliability Engineering
within Google, the world'sforemost expertise of a method
of reliability that has sinceyou know, really transformed the
industry as a as a method. So myrecollection of Mikey telling
the story is, so he goes over toWashington, DC, and he says,

(48:01):
Look, I know you know what todo. And my guess is that you
have been stopped from doing theright thing. I am carrying as my
own phrasing, a LouisvilleSlugger that has Barack Obama
written on it, let me know whereto swing it so I can help you.

Cliff Scott (48:18):
Barrier busting?
Exactly. And

Bill Duane (48:21):
and so what that did was exactly what you were
pointing to. And I don't youknow, the difference between
Washington political culture andSilicon Valley culture, that's a
pretty big gulf. I don't thinkit's as big a gulf as post
colonial colonial with withcolonial cultures. But you know,
what he did was in effect, whatI heard you say your method was

(48:43):
when his his intention was tohelp anybody in the system,
everybody in the system, andattacking the people who had
their hands closest to the cogsand gears or pushing them into
it, you want to make sure itgets worse, but instead, this
intention of care, combined withcuriosity, and an offer to help

(49:07):
and provide air cover, making itsafe then for them the reality
to emerge, and then there, andat some point, the expertise did
come in. But in one of thethings that I found genius about
his approach that I also findgenius about your approach is
you keep your expertise closeby, but you lead with the human

(49:33):
machinery. And this is exactlywhy I have this podcast and my
why my work is so heavilyfocused on this because almost
all methods of innovation aremore outward looking. Product
Market Fit the ideation process,whereas you can't actually get

(49:54):
to that until you get into howdo you make the unknown and the
legitimately fearful safe, notjust for individuals but within
groups. So I think I think Mikeydid an amazing job of that. And
by the way, Obama asked him tostay and create the United
States Digital Service, hechecked in with Mikey to make
sure I saw the the meeting inthe White House of whether or

(50:16):
not Mikey would be okay withwearing a suit from time to
time. begrudgingly, he said,yes. But then that curiosity
then opened up the door for aslightly different statement of
values, there now became thisentity, the United States
Digital Service, which is a homefor people that really care
about using technology at itshighest expression, more

(50:39):
oriented for the common good. Soit's very common for people to
do like a two year tour throughthe White House, and I've had
the beautiful honor of doingsome workshops with them. And so
I wanted to tell that story,because it, it, it underlines
that idea of having having yourexpertise close at hand, but

(50:59):
then really concentrating on themaking it safe curiosity,
intention of non harm, as as away of then supercharging,
because what you told about inthose stories is it's not just a
linear, you're not just stoppingsomething being broken, but it
holds the thing of a nonlinearincrease in capability. And joy.

(51:21):
Also, yeah, who doesn't likebeing part of a successful, open
hearted, curious group ofadventurers?

Cliff Scott (51:28):
Yeah, exactly.
There's a, there's an element ofbeing a lever for increasing
self awareness. And the essenceof the work that I do at the
individual level, and at theorganizational level is to help
them identify and make much morevisible to themselves, what are

(51:48):
the beliefs that are drivingyour behavior. So in fact, a lot
of what I described was helpingpeople see the ways in which
their belief system was drivenby centuries of oppression, in
part, just in part, but stillenough to matter. There are a
whole lot of very personalbelief systems that are

(52:10):
independent of that, or may beshaped by it, but they're really
formed in their own family,they're formed in their own
growth, you know, fromchildhood, and to be able to
see, the assumptions thatsupport that belief that they've
never tested, that they wereonly dimly aware of, gives them
the power to make more objectsin their field. In other words,

(52:35):
the sense of Wait a minute, mypersonality, who I how I show up
is really an artifact ofeverything I've learned. And
there are elements of it thataren't helpful. And for the
longest time, I've been veryafraid of, or very cautious
about X, whatever x is, and, andwhen they begin to test that

(52:55):
assumption by behaving somewhatdifferently, and noticing that
it doesn't blow up. Or by havinga conversation with somebody
they fear will judge them and tosay, if I behave more like this,
what would you think of me andto find out that what they would
think of you was a lot more thanthey've ever thought of you
before? That, that it makes thembraver and more able to

(53:17):
recognize that they they're nottrapped, they're not trapped in
having to always be what peopletold them, as they, you know,
arrived into adulthood that theyneeded to be that they could be
more and and I think that thatthat the ability for them to

(53:40):
recognize that there are manyinfluences that make us what we
are, that we're that we we canwe can have a collective
discussion about. So how's thatworking for us? And are we
willing to make take some risksand to change? And when they do,
they find that theirrelationships and their families

(54:02):
improve. And that is a hugewinner. I've had people come
back from workshops where theywere given exercise and being
much more mindful about how theyshow up is very critical all the
time with others. And when theycould see it and stop it and be
and say, I'm going to replacethat with deep listening. They

(54:22):
discover, well, one guy came inand he says, I haven't done I
haven't really taken the risk tobe different with my workers.
But I'll tell you, I'm with my19 year old son who with whom
I've been estranged for severalyears, it broke the barrier. We
have a relationship and hestarted to cry. You know, I
thought I had lost my son. And,and so for him, if it works

(54:47):
there, then he sold it willyield he'll change everywhere,
right? One, I guess what I'mdriving at is that when you To
find the thing that feeds theenergy, and what what people at
their heart want most, and youshow that everything that you

(55:08):
will offer them is aligned tothat purpose, but aligned to
help them get there moreeffectively, then you can push
pretty hard for people to takerisk. And because they trust
that, in fact, the risk will beonly beneficial, they, they

(55:31):
built up a fair amount ofcourage. Again, I guess it's
really about deep, deeply payingattention to what matters to the
other, which might be veryforeign to what matters to you,
as you know, based on theculture you come from, so
there's a lot of letting go ofit couldn't be, you know, a

(55:55):
sense of my own identity,frankly, a lot of truth that I
had to face in terms ofrecognizing just what it means
to be an American and in and howthat impacts people in ways that
are not really healthy. And alot of humility about who we as
a country really should be inthe world that we we aspire to

(56:19):
be in many ways, but we we don'tknow how to do it yet. For sure.
Yeah,

Bill Duane (56:29):
that awareness site.
I actually I have a lot ofoptimism for the future, despite
it being a time of dramaticallyheightened risk and upheaval
partially because all thosethings mean that everything is
on the table. Some of the stuffabout race and gender, which was
pretty locked in is up fordiscussion, although the for it

(56:54):
to be up for discussion meansit's a lot more directly
observable, you know, some ofthe things around the biosphere
and the global economy. Sothey're at risk in a way because
they're destabilized. But thatdestabilization also allows for
degrees of freedom. And thething that I'm really optimistic
around is that the systems havedegraded enough where young

(57:18):
people do not buy in to thestory as readily. So you know,
when I was teaching at theUniversity of Cologne, business
school at the row businessdialogue, you know, after
spending a week hanging outwith, with the with the grad

(57:39):
students, you know, I gave alecture called meaning purpose
and paying the bills, how to doit, because that's what they
needed most. Because they arenot accepting. I mean, I think
in the US, most young peoplehave said, the purpose of my
education is to provide privateequity, a good return on
investments on those loans.

(58:03):
That's the that's the that'sthe, they don't believe the
story anymore. They don'tbelieve Hey, if you work really
hard for the corporation,they'll care about you. Yeah,
right. Even even the the Googlesof the world are like, Yeah,
that's true, as long as you'reuseful. And so I think that
disillusionment process isactually useful, in that the

(58:26):
young people today in the US,and what I'm finding also
worldwide are like, I don'tbelieve the story, that the
stuff and the status is whatlife is about, instead, meaning
purpose and connection. And soI'm finding that they are
standing very firmly on theground of No, I'm not buying the

(58:47):
story. What I do want is meaningand purpose where you and I were
sharing our sort of backstories.
And I feel like I came late tothe figuring out what was most
important to me in my life, ifyou had asked me and an
executive coach did in my 30s,what's most important to you the
and I had a great difficulty inarticulating and I actually had

(59:08):
to spend two years figuring outother than the cultural
autopilot of what should beimportant. So I think right now,
I'm very excited. And I'm seeingthis in the generational
handoffs of some of theseenterprises. But despite
everything being quite scary,I'm actually really optimistic

(59:31):
that if and it certainly drivesa lot of my work in consulting
and coaching, in particular, tomake sure that that happens for
people that can't normallyafford senior executives. And
that is because, like if we cangive them tools, there was a
Gallup poll that came outrecently that said, like,

(59:51):
something crazy, like 67% ofyoung people feel like that
things are going to get betterbut It almost all of them don't
know how to do it. For me, thatis a bugle call for people like
you and I using methods likewe've discussed. Because, you
know, one of the themes thatemerged is letting go, we need

(01:00:12):
to let go of the way it was donebefore. And even that idea of a
letting go of our own expertiseto create a playing field, for
them, these young people to comein and innovate something
better, and whether that beworking on a product or social
stuff.

Cliff Scott (01:00:32):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm seeing it
everywhere. And in some ways, orcompanies or countries, I think
that are less well off than weare, and for whom money was, you
know, a lot of money wasunattainable. That they are
having an advantage, theyunderstand that life is about

(01:00:55):
meaning and about purpose. Andthe purpose is generally the
well being of all of us. And inour tribe, and our clan, or in
our community. And, you know,it's, it's interesting when a
Filipino goes overseas for work,it's by and large, mostly to
earn enough money to send hometo make the lives at home better

(01:01:17):
20% of the Philippine economy isfrom money that's remitted
overseas, and about 15% of theirpopulation is overseas. And very
often, people who develop apretty good life in the US and
or been gone for a long timecome back, because they want to

(01:01:37):
give something back. That's thething they say most I want to
give what I want to teachpeople, what I've learned is
effective ways to runbusinesses, I'm come home for
that, we could learn quite a lotfrom that, as a country, the
notion that what matters morethan our individual success is

(01:01:59):
that, that we create successthat is sustainable for the
whole. And that a whole can bedefined as the community can be
defined as all human beings orthe entire planet, though the
entire ecosystem, and more andmore that's being shoved in our
faces. What What I love aboutthe youngest generation is that

(01:02:19):
they see this, they see thisclearly. And if life hadn't
gotten so bad, so fast. I mean,the number of crises that are
just tumbling in, in otherwords, it took away the boiled
frog effect. Right? In otherwords, this is this is somebody

(01:02:42):
we're being torched, not boiledslowly, and, and they are the
most readily able to see thatthe old systems are broken. And
and so yes, I share youroptimism in that sense. But I
also think it's, it's probablygoing to be a very painful
transition to the

Bill Duane (01:03:02):
different things. So I think so. And I don't wish
that on, on people, obviously,particularly since we're talking
about people in parts of theworld with relatively less
resources. And of course, thebrunt of climate change is going
to happen in Southeast Asia,where you know, a lot of people
are going to need to hit theroad. So I want to be very
mindful that I'm not minimizingthe pain and the suffering. And

(01:03:27):
I think if it's not paint, likefat, dumb and happy is not a
great place to make these deepchanges from, you know, I think
every, every time when I've hadan up level of development, or
awareness, or kindness, or theability to see complex systems,
it I mean, I always want to doit. But the thing that gets me

(01:03:50):
over my own fear humps isgenerally it just hurts too
much. To stay, that's fine. Thestay the way it is. And I think
that hurt can either comeinternally or externally. So
while I don't welcome the painthat's to come, you know, the
coming medical crises and all Ithink that's very, very real.

(01:04:12):
Plus, just with even theincrease in AI and other things
at the same time, if there isgoing to be pain, I think we are
far better suited to use thatpain. You know, the the Buddha
said, there's two kinds ofsuffering. They're suffering
that leads to more suffering andsuffering that leads to the end
of suffering. So there's thesuffering that says, Oh, my God,
this is terrible that we haveanother glass of wine or let me

(01:04:35):
watch my reality TV show. Again,I may be projecting or there's
the kind that says, Enough,enough, enough, I remember that
its meaning and that its purposeand that it's connection, and
that we do not have an infiniteamount of time to play this
game. I'm going to take thispain and I'm going to turn turn

(01:04:59):
towards something which I thinkis the the hardest letting go in
a way. It's it's letting go ofour habitual relationship with
pain to step into somethinggreater. Yeah,

Cliff Scott (01:05:08):
absolutely. And the familiar the things that are
familiar and recognizing thatsome of them are harmful.

Bill Duane (01:05:15):
So yeah, right. And I think really recognizing the
familiar putting ourselves inthe presence of different
cultures gives us an insight tobe used for the benefit of
others, but also to realize, oh,this is my own. These are my own
stories. This is my ownsuffering that I've acclimated
to. All right. That sounds likea great, great place to leave it

(01:05:36):
on.

Cliff Scott (01:05:36):
Sure does. Thank you so much for the time. My
great pleasure opportunity. Icome away enlightened in every
conversation and this is

Bill Duane (01:05:47):
wonderful, thank you so much.

Unknown (01:05:49):
Sure thing. Take care.