How To Live Future Ready with Frederik Pferdt

Today we talk with my old friend and colleague Dr Frederik Pferdt, who is on a mission to empower everyone to fulfill their visions for the future.

From shaping Google's fabled creative culture as Chief Innovation Evangelist to nurturing the minds of students at Stanford University's Hasso Plattner Institute of Design, Frederik has a track record of helping others realize their creative superpower to imagine and invent a better tomorrow.

Join us now as we have a conversational celebration around his new book, What's Next Is Now: How to Live Future Ready as we talk about shyness and audacity, knowing and not knowing, curiosity and risk. 

Intro and Outro music kind courtesy of Taraval.

Episode Transcript

Bill Duane (00:00):
Hi, welcome to the heart of innovation Podcast. I'm
Bill Duane former Googleengineering executive and
Superintendent of wellbeing andcourage consultant and speaker
on innovation strategy. We'regoing to be diving deep into the
internal innovation that unlocksexternal innovation and the
surprisingly practical ways wecan become better innovators.
We'll be in conversation withinnovators from many different

(00:22):
backgrounds and contextsincluding business, science,
social change and technology andnot only benefit from their
expertise, but also theirpersonal stories of their
innovation journey. Today, wetalk with my old friend and
colleague Dr. Frederick Burt whois on a mission to empower
everyone to fulfill theirvisions for the future. From
shaping Google's fabled creativeculture as Chief Innovation

(00:43):
evangelist to nurturing theminds of students at Stanford
University's Hasso PlattnerInstitute of Design, Frederick
has a track record of helpingothers realize their creative
superpower to imagine and inventa better tomorrow. Join us now
as we have a conversationalcelebration around his new book.
What's next is now how to livefuture ready. And we talked

(01:03):
about shyness and Audacity,knowing and not knowing
curiosity and risk. So welcome,Frederick to the heart of
innovation podcast, just anabsolute pleasure to have you
on.

Frederik Pferdt (01:16):
Thanks so much for having me, Bill. I was
waiting a long time to, to divein. Yeah,

Bill Duane (01:24):
so part of the reason we both had such
anticipation about thisconversation is that we have
been colleagues and then friendsfor a very long time. When is
it? Do you think we first met?

Frederik Pferdt (01:36):
So I remember that you offered a class that I
think was hosted in, in building46, if you can still remember us
on main campus. And I rememberthat, you know, I was, I was

(01:58):
curious about the title of theclass, because it was something
about mindfulness meditation,and I think it even had the word
innovation in it. I can't recalllike exactly what the title was.
But I was super curious to learnmore about that. And then, you
know, I read your name, BillDuane, which I didn't know at
that time, right. So I didn'tknow like, you know, who, who

(02:19):
you were. So I showed up in thatclass, as usual, I was sitting
in, in the back of the room. Andthen you started off with a
mindfulness meditation exercise.
And, you know, I was like,talking to myself, like, what am
I doing here? Right, I was, Iwas not expecting that, to, to,
to happen as an experience,right, right from the beginning.

(02:44):
But then you told the storyabout who you are, and like,
what you value and what youactually want to accomplish in
this organization, in thisculture. And I was purely
fascinated, so I, you know, leftthe class. And I think I came
came up to you and said, like,Hey, Bill, we need to talk, we

(03:07):
need to do something together.
And we didn't know exactly whatthat was, at that time. But I
think moving on, we had a coupleof great opportunities to really
work together and, and, and beinspired by each other to, to,
you know, bring the worlds ofmindfulness and meditation

(03:29):
closer to the world ofinnovation, and vice versa. And
I think, you know, nowadays, weboth play in these fields. And
I'm still, I'm still fascinated,you know, from our last
conversation when you came uphere, to my place, and we had
almost a whole night togethertalking about, you know,

(03:51):
everything from innovation,creativity to the universe to,
you know, 10 day, silentmeditation retreats to how we
left, you know, Google, and soforth. And I'm super happy to
dive in today.

Bill Duane (04:05):
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, that's, that's myrecollection as well. So that
was probably what like2000 2008 2009 It was before I
went from engineering over topeople ops, right, so would have
been around then

Frederik Pferdt (04:18):
it must be probably closer to 2010 or 11.
Because that's where I movedfrom Dublin to to, to the
headquarters. So Right. I thinkyou, you you just made that move
from engineering into intopeople operations. And I think

(04:38):
you were still at the beginningof creating, you know, your,
your world and kind of like, youknow, what you want to
accomplish and I was purelyfascinated by your vision and
what you actually want to wantto want to do.

Bill Duane (04:54):
Right, and then, you know, one of the things that I
loved about meeting you was So,up until that point, I hadn't
really thought about innovationas a discipline, not not not
deeply, which is interesting,because I was involved in it so
much. I think it's very commonfor engineers and technical
people to focus on the executionof solving the problem. And

(05:17):
maybe a little less about themethodology that's used to solve
the problem, which is part ofwhat you know, immediately was
so entrancing about what you'resaying, you know, I mean, at
this point, I believe it wasactually during that point, when
we met, I had a sticker on mylaptop that said, Fu, we have
charts and graphs to back us up.
So this is a very, this is avery linear, reductionist way of

(05:39):
solving problems where step oneto solving the problem is
figuring it out. And so when Imet you and learned about your
point of view in your programs,as I transitioned from
engineering into, into PeopleOps, you know, what you offer is
quite radical. For engineers,right? Because instead of racing

(06:03):
as fast as you can towardsfiguring it out, it's this idea
of staying in this liminal spaceof not knowing is, is really,
really deep. And I think part ofthe part of what I really
enjoyed about your your work isyou're going into a culture of
engineering, and, and espousingessentially an adjacent culture.

(06:25):
That, you know, you know,definitely when things are
farther down, you do want tonail it down and productionize
it and metrics and all of that.
But there's this veryspecialness about the nature of
a beginning of finding out whereit's actually counterproductive
to land to quickly, unknowing.
And then I think part of thework that I've always loved

(06:49):
about your work is how do youactually create ways of doing
and being that reinforce thatand help us? You know, sort of
data nerds resist the temptationto be pulled into figuring it
out too early?

Frederik Pferdt (07:08):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good, good old
times. But let's about the goodold of the good new times. So
yes,

Bill Duane (07:18):
yes. So one of the things that's most notable about
your your new book, which we'llhave linked prominently, is is
how different you and I wethought we were alluding to it
just now is sort of howdifferently we look at the

(07:39):
world. And our approaches. Sowhen you tell that story about
us having very differentmethodologies, when I look at
the present day, both thecontent of your amazing new book
and the work that I'm doing,we've actually ended up becoming
quite close to each other in thedomain. So for instance, I've
switched much more into thisexploratory place of problem

(08:01):
solving. And of course, youturned out really deeply turning
into the mindfulness and, andreally using some of these ideas
of the Spirit as a place of, ofidea generation. So that's,
that's a dynamic to me. That'sendlessly fascinating. One of
the things in your book thatreally blew me away was it seems

(08:25):
like you weren't alwaysconfident and open you do tell a
number of stories about beinganxious or being preferring to
be closer to home? What are theexperiences that really helped
you have more of a overtoptimism, maybe a less
guardedness in the world?

Frederik Pferdt (08:45):
Yes, yes. So let's go back in time, yes. And,
you know, picture this, youknow, young kid who is
incredibly shy, unsure about,you know, himself living in a in
a small town called Ravensburgin Germany, which is a, you
know, a small town with lots ofhistorical buildings and towers,

(09:10):
and, you know, just anincredible history as well. And,
you know, growing up there, youknow, literally nothing changes
ever, right? There's still likethese towers and historical
buildings, you know, theyprobably painted differently,
but they're still around. So,you know, I grew up in in a way
that just created a lot ofcomfort for me, right? You know,

(09:36):
knowing where to go and having aloving family and caring family
and so forth. And, you know, youalso have to picture like, you
know, me in school, you know,whenever the teacher called my
name, you know, I usually wassitting in, like in your class
in the, in the back of the room,because I immediately turned red

(10:00):
Right, I started sweating and,you know, my heartbeat went up
and so forth. So I was this, youknow, if you put on a label like
an introvert, right, not reallysure about himself, as I said,
but I was deeply curious, right?

(10:21):
I was curious about, you know,whatever's happening in the
world. At the same time, I wasvery uncomfortable to talk to
strangers or unfamiliar people.
That was way out of my comfortzone. But um, you know, now I am
actually, you know, preaching, Iwould say unreserved openness,

(10:43):
right? So I turned into someonewho really tries to embrace
unreserved openness, right to,you know, really be open to new
experiences into everythingelse. And I love change, I have
to say, right, I started to likehow things you know, transform

(11:04):
how they morph, how they change,and so forth. So I really had a
transformation in my growing up,I would say, and that really
kicked off when I had to leavemy comfort zone in my hometown,
to, you know, go study, whichwas not far away was an hour

(11:24):
away, but it was across a lakeLake constant that actually
connects Austria withSwitzerland. And so for me, that
first move was reallytransformational, because it
felt uncomfortable. But at thesame time, I was learning a
tremendous amount of things, Iwas connecting with new people,
you know, I moved to the frontof the room, in in, in the

(11:48):
classroom, you know, I raised myhand more often, I stopped
turning red whenever it youknow, the professor or teacher
would call me out and so forth.
Because I was really, you know,betting on doubling down on my
curiosity. And what I, whateverI found, is something new, I was

(12:11):
really seeing that as somethingvaluable. So I just followed my
curiosity. And that took me to,you know, Shanghai, Cape Town,
born his iris, you know,California and New York, you
know, places around the world.
But it was not about moving fromplace to place, it was more
about opening my mind and myheart to the possibilities that
are out in the world. And, youknow, that's something where now

(12:36):
can stand in front of people,many people without turning red
and confidently help others toalso opening up themselves
because I think an open mind andunreserved openness is something
where you can find tremendousopportunities all around you and
in the world.

Bill Duane (12:59):
Wow, there's so much there. And before I dive in with
some follow up questions, Ireally want to point to a core
area of your deep expertise as Iperceive it is, when you speak
to people about this, you, inaddition to providing a lot of
good data, about why this sortof curiosity, and innovation is

(13:21):
good, like you also vibe thislike you vibe, trust me, it's
safe. Trust me, you'll have toextend yourself a little bit. As
a matter of fact, in your book,a phrase that really, really
jumped out at me is, a lot oftimes the things that make us
grow the most are unique andunsettling. Right? However, a

(13:43):
lot of times when we encounterthe unique and unsettling the
lived embodied experience ofthat is uncomfortable. So
there's a natural sense to turnaway. And when you were just
telling that story, you know, Ithink a lot of us have these
neurobiological processes thatsay, say that basically say turn
away from the unknown becauseit's more predictable and safe

(14:09):
to stay where you are. However,one is, I think, in terms of
evolutionary biology, as anexample, looking at it through
that lens, like, that's a falsesafety. Because although you may
choose stasis, if yourenvironment changes, staying
with that stasis becomes aliability. One that's quite

(14:30):
insidious, because it's acomfortable liability where
slowly you almost don't don'trealize you're in danger. The
other thing I wanted to pointout and get your take on is, you
know, in electrical engineering,there's this concept of
activation energy. It takes moreenergy to power up a circuit, or
a power factor if you're talkingabout motors, than it is to keep

(14:51):
it going. So in the story youtold you know, there was some
resistance to change, theturning red the desire to say
close to home And it sounds likefor you, and this is true for me
also is the activation energy iscuriosity, right? curiosity
about what might be true, if youknow a phrase that I picked up

(15:12):
from you is how might we or youknow, these questions of really
looking into the unknown? Andseeing what are the positives?
And then the other thing islike, how can we I think the
curiosity is a great activationenergy. And there's also this
idea of how do we make it safe?
Right to help overcome that, youknow, used a great word of
shyness, I think there'sdifferent kinds of shyness

(15:34):
there. There's interpersonalshyness, but also, I think
there's contextual shyness,where you just sort of feel a
little reticent to step out ofout of what's, what's new. So
I'm curious to hear about howthat lands about this idea of
activation energy and and thenhow can people cultivate either

(15:55):
the sense of safety which youcover in one chapter of your
book? And then also this idea ofcultivating curiosity?

Frederik Pferdt (16:06):
Yes, yes. I love that concept of activation
energy. And, as you could hearfrom my story, that activation
energy was tremendously high.
Right? It took a lot of effort,a lot of overcoming, you know,
fear and anxiety, and, you know,resistance, because your brain

(16:33):
tells yourself, you know, a staywhere you are, right? Don't
Don't go somewhere new. Because,you know, then I have to
actually, you know, use energyto think and to explore and to,
to navigate that uncertainty. Sothat activation energy was

(16:58):
incredibly high. But as you werementioning, as soon as you take
the first step, and make thatfirst leap, for me, it was
across a little lake right, LakeConstance, which is not, it's a
fairy rate of about, like, 25minutes, right. But crossing
that lake and living in adifferent place, you know, with
new people and in a newenvironment, and so forth.

(17:21):
Really, what would I say, inhindsight, is made me addictive,
right, addictive to the new.
Because, you know, I walkedaround, like, with wide, open
eyes, and, you know, my heartwas open to, and whoever I met,
whatever I discovered, wassomething exciting, because it

(17:44):
helped me to learn something.
And that is still true today,right? I literally live my days
where I am trying to seek outthe new and seek out something
different every day. Because,again, like, being in a in, like
falling into routines, or doingthings over and over again, just

(18:07):
that creates now anxiety and andputs me into a space where I
think I, I want to changesomething. And we both know, and
we both learned that, you know,change is just the law of
nature, right? Everythingchanges all the time. And so how

(18:28):
do you embrace change? How doyou make use of change? How do
you create change and ignitechange? And using that
activation energy? That now isvery low for me, right? i It's
basically zero, where I, I, youknow, I'm seeking out activity,

(18:49):
the new whereas, I wouldprobably like to add something
to that concept where I say,like now the stagnation energy,
or where, you know, something isnot moving, or is moving always
in the same way. That now, youknow, is something I want to
change. And I use a lot ofenergy to actually do that.

Bill Duane (19:13):
Right. There's so much there. So, before we
started recording, we noted thatboth of us are in pretty unique
spaces that represent I think,safety of one kind or another,
right? If you really want toencourage ourselves as

(19:34):
individuals or other people.
It's how can we create causesand conditions that allow us to
view the unsettling as excitingversus scary. So I'll go on a
quick side note, one of thethings in Search Inside Yourself
that they point out is that theexperience of excitement and
fear physically are quitesimilar. As a matter of fact,

(19:56):
you can make a state that theirstatement that They're the same.
The difference betweenexcitement and fear is how you
feel about it is how oneinterprets the unknown, right?
It's that sense of, oh my god,anything's possible to oh my
god, anything's possible. Likethey're there. It's but
neurophysiological II, it'sreally the same. So I wanted to

(20:18):
point out that people won't beable to see us as we're
speaking. But you are in rightnow a beautiful, serene,
exciting, interesting geodesicdome that I believe you built
with your own hands. Exactly,yeah. Right within it within a
space and you know, I've had thegood fortune to visit you into

(20:39):
your home in a home that'sreally purpose built to, you
know, a phrase that was used inengineering was you tilt the
physics of the situation towardscuriosity. And I was noting that
I'm currently in New Jersey withmy mom for two weeks helping her
out with some things, and I'm inmy childhood bedroom. But my

(21:00):
childhood bedroom when I leftfor college, my dad repurposed
it into his office and folksthat know me know that it's been
a while since my father passedaway. And we talked a little bit
about the Spaces, we're callingfrom that. And your upbringing,
Frederick of your parents reallycreating a room of, of safety
for you. So it seems to me that,that the creation of safety is

(21:26):
like safety plus activationenergy is what allows us to get
over the hump of complacency orresistance towards the fear and
maybe is that kind of thing thatthen helps us shift from that
idea of being fearful about agiven set of stimuli to being
excited? Absolutely, yes.

Frederik Pferdt (21:50):
And yeah, you know, coming back to that, that
room, you are now in, you know,my parents still have that room
set up for me as well. And youknow, as soon as I left, my
hometown, they, they said to me,like, Frederick, you can always

(22:11):
come back, that room will behere for you, right? Which
helped me to really venture intointo the new into the unknown,
right, because I always had inthe back of my mind that there
is a place and there are peopleI can, I can rely on I can come
back to, I never did, but it wasalways there, which I think is

(22:36):
fascinating. And so physicalenvironments, right can really
create you know, and, and asense of safety, they can create
a sense of curiosity, they canhelp you to feel inspired, and

(22:59):
so forth. And one of the workswe both did, was actually
creating spaces that really wereconducive to these to these
emotions that we want to feelright, excitement, you know,
safety and so forth. So if youtake a meditation space, right,

(23:20):
which is usually very clean,very, very simple. It has, you
know, a couple of cushions thatyou can sit on. But usually,
it's, it's a little darker, youknow, it's, it's quiet, it has a
couple of artifacts that usuallyare related or helpful to

(23:45):
meditating. And the contrary,you would say, like, oh, you
know, spaces that you want tohave related to creativity and
innovation and idea generation,so forth are, you know, lots of
items, you know, books or, youknow, prototypes, or artifacts
or materials should be, like,supported by music or sound,

(24:11):
should be very light filled, andso forth. Right. But what we
found is that, you know, that'sa physical environment, that's
the external world, what mattersmost I think is how the internal
world is actually functioningright. And you can find
inspiration. You can be creativein various environments, you can

(24:32):
be very creative in a meditationspace, right? At the same time,
you can, you know, find peaceand quietness in a, in a in a
hustling and bustling space,right, which is very loud and,
and so forth. So I thinkfocusing on what happens

(24:54):
internally and what happenswithin yourself and how you can
under And that more how you cancreate awareness around this, I
think it's a, it's somethingI've learned over the years.
And, and it's, it's, it's veryinteresting because, you know,
starting off with building thegarage, you know, at Google and

(25:15):
and, you know, being in creativespaces around the world, what I
found is that lots of peoplecopied that which, you know, I
was I was flattered by right.
But at the same time, when Ifound that most of these spaces
were actually empty, I foundthat the inner space and the
inner attitude didn't change,which is more important, I

(25:36):
think, then, you know,decorating a room with, you
know, artifacts or creating loudmusic in a in an environment.
Right.

Bill Duane (25:46):
And for folks that may not have heard of the
garage, the garage is a spacethat Frederick created at
Google, that was essentially aplayground of the body mind. In
the sense of, as you mentioned,it was a bright open, it is a
bright, open space, witheverything from 3d printers, to

(26:06):
toys to musical instruments. Andit's, it's, it's a place that's
pretty hard to perch, andeverything is movable, all the
chairs, all the desks, it'scompletely reconfigurable. So
this space was known as thegarage. And to your point is,
you know, how can you createcauses and conditions that

(26:27):
encourage a certain internalmindset? And a sorry, this
internal mindset? And you know,that, you know, the internal
mindset is, is, I think,massively important. And one of
the things that I findinteresting, I'm curious, what
your experience has been, is to,you know, the physical space is
so important in terms ofencouraging mind states and

(26:51):
encouraging different mindstates. I think it's possible,
but really challenging to dothat over zoom in a hybrid work
environment, what have you foundabout the challenges of inviting
different internal states,whereas before, it would have
been a go to have, oh, the teamwill just all physically get
together in in one space?

Frederik Pferdt (27:12):
Yeah, that's an that's an interesting question.
You know, as we all learned,how, you know, working and
communicating, and teaching, andlearning over, you know, or with
technology actually works. dueto external conditions, I think

(27:35):
what we didn't learn that muchis that it's, it can be actually
quite the same, right? You canpractice listening, you know, in
a, you know, in an environmentwith lots of people. And you can
practice listening, when you'reon a on a Google Hangout, or a

(27:58):
Zoom meeting, right? And Ithink, focusing more on, you
know, what do you want toactually accomplish? And? And
how do you want to show up?
Instead of saying, like, oh,that's only possible, you know,
when, when I'm in person withsomeone? Or it's only possible
when we on Zoom? I think that'sthe wrong question. I think we

(28:24):
should ask ourselves, like, whatare you actually want to
accomplish? Right? And if youwant to listen more, right, and
if you want to show empathy, askquestions. Or if you want to,
you know, spread a message, oreven meditate, right, you can do
that in person, but you can alsodo that, you know, over over

(28:45):
zoom, and I had my first youknow, 10 day silent meditation
retreat in Joshua Tree, desert.
And the teachers were, therewere two teachers there

(29:05):
physically, but they were notsaying anything for, you know,
for the 10 days, it wasbasically a recording that was
playing. And, you know, youcould ask yourself, like, you
know, what's, what's thedifference, but there, there
was, no, there was no bigdifference, because how you
perceive these things justmatters. From your side, so how,

(29:29):
you know, perceive a recordingand act accordingly or how you
perceive like someone elsesaying it. In real life, I think
it's just a matter of how youwant to how you want to perceive
it.

Bill Duane (29:45):
I think that's that's super interesting and
correct. And I think it'sactually a skill we have to
learn maybe to be a little lessreliant on the on the external
props, like one of the skillsets is then how do we how do we
do that? Having said that, I doWe encourage lots of clients to
take the money they're saving onoffice space and to make sure
that two maybe even three timesa year, the entire team is

(30:09):
getting together in a placewhere we can also have those
those external prompts.

Frederik Pferdt (30:17):
Can I challenge you on that? So what is what
would be the what will be thebenefit of, you know, an in
person gathering in a wonderfulenvironment, compared to, you

(30:37):
know, bringing people together,online.

Bill Duane (30:42):
So, I think the idea of having splayed having places
that are assigned and signifierthat this is a place for a
different kind of thinking. Oneof my teachers shins and Jung
notes that, you know, a lot oftimes sacred places have sacred
architectures. Now, whether ornot they're intrinsically more
sacred or not. And what'sinteresting is even as a, you

(31:02):
know, a secular mindfulnessteacher, he frequently will
teach at a at a beautifulCatholic retreat center in Palos
Verdes, California. So it'sreally funny to be doing secular
mindfulness, you know, andthere's a crucifix and you know,
all the all the Catholic orreligious adornments around it,
but he loves it. He said, Yeah,this is, these are all signs and

(31:24):
signifiers, that this is a placewith a slightly different set of
values for a different purpose.
So I think just the way thehuman nervous system reacts,
that it's good to have these,these sacred places as ways of
then triggering that internalstate. Also, I think that a lot
of human communication involvesmicro expressions and nuances

(31:44):
that, you know, I think, Ithink, zoom, and you and I have
talked about how much we spend,how much time and attention we
spend on our setup, to be ableto maximize that as people who
are trying to create deepconnections over this. And then
also, I think there's a littlebit of wildfire space of, you
know, so for instance, I gave atalk to some of Google clouds,

(32:07):
senior European customers, andthere was just a guy in the
hallway, and we just startedchatting, and it turns out, we
had 10 friends in common, andour work really overlaps. So I
think those sorts of things area little harder to happen. So
again, my my point of view isthat there is there is unique

(32:28):
value in getting together inperson, and that it's useful to
do that maybe every six, eightmonths or so. Yeah,

Frederik Pferdt (32:38):
I love that.
Yeah. And, you know, I'm a big,big fan of physical environments
that you know, support aspecific you know, attitude, or
a specific feeling that you wantto have, right. So, you know,
what I've learned, right, whenthe pandemic started is that,

(33:01):
you know, my kids, my kids can'tlearn effectively on a computer
in their bedrooms, right? It'sjust not something they, they
wanted to do or wanted to engagein. And it's the same for us,
right? Like, we'd need,sometimes a change of physical
spaces to, you know, do focusedwork or, you know, learn

(33:24):
something new and so forth. Sowhat I've done is, you know,
just built them a little shedoutside in the forest, where
they can walk to, you know, 30seconds. And so that, we call it
the a school, because it's an Aframe building. And so every
morning, you know, they couldget up, they could get dressed,

(33:47):
they could, you know, pack theirschool lunch, but they didn't go
to school, but they went tolike, you know, this little shed
in the forest. And then, youknow, were engaged in learning
over over zoom and Google Googlemeets right, which was the way
they actually connected withtheir teacher with their

(34:08):
schoolmates with their friendsand so forth. And that totally
worked. You know, they, theyreally, you know, my middle one,
Joshua, he learned how to, youknow, read and write just purely
over over zoom, but being in aspace that he considered, like a
homeschool environment. Right?

(34:33):
And so, I think there is a, aninteresting combination of of
that, that, that really, we candesign intentionally, right
where you feel like okay, youknow, you can learn something
new sitting in a classroom withother peers, but you can also
learn something new, just purelyover technology. And, you know,

(34:55):
spaces, external spaces reallyhave a place in that but also
exploring the internal space inhow you how you feel in these
different environments. And whathappens to your emotions is
something we need to payattention to as well.

Bill Duane (35:13):
So tying all those threads together, what advice
would you have for somebody whois looking to optimize for
innovation in an organization inin a hybrid environment? Like
what the what the what, whatkind of things do you think are
best served by the, you know,and can be done in the in the
remote hybrid environment? Andjust yet, what advice would you

(35:35):
have for for people?

Frederik Pferdt (35:38):
That's a big question. Yes.
You know, one, one advice Iwould have is experiment, right?
I think what I've seen, reallyworking for us as a family and

(36:00):
as, probably as a family, like,you know, is that notion of
let's try and see what works andwhat doesn't, right, because
experimentation always leads tolearning. And so if an
organization really wants tofocus on, you know, innovation

(36:22):
and creating an environmentwhere innovation happens, the
only way to do that is toexperiment, right? Try different
things, like, you know, try tofollow the idea that you just
shared, like, go on, you know,personal retreats with your
team, you know, every three tofour months, you know, and see,

(36:45):
you know, what, what you canlearn from that? How does that
affect your team dynamics? Howdoes that help to find
inspiration, connecting people,connecting ideas, and so forth,
experiment with different waysof running your team meetings on
Zoom, right? allowing others totake over the meeting agenda

(37:05):
have a type of unconference orflexible agenda that you can try
out. So all of those things, youknow, are little experiments
that help you to find ways thatmight lead to new ideas, right,
that might lead to some doingsome things differently. And I

(37:28):
think that's the signal you wantto send as a leader into your
organization is that, hey, we'retrying something new, we're
experimenting, right? Andexperimentation is not just
helpful in the approach on howyou want to build a culture of
innovation. But experimentationis also the approach then how
you solve problems and how youmake progress towards something

(37:51):
that you want to want to make areality as an organization. So
sorry, go ahead. And that'sthat's just obviously one, one
of the things but I thinkexperimentation is such an such
an overlooked power thateverybody has. And again, like

(38:15):
you need your activation energy,probably right to run your first
experiment. And, you know, showup show up as a leader, for
example, in a meeting and say,like, Hey, today, I don't have
an agenda. And at the same time,I'm going to share something
personal, right? From a storyabout a risk I took or like, you
know, where it was vulnerablein, in, in a situation and so

(38:39):
forth. So you already kind oflike show that experimentation
is valued, and you practice it.
And you being a role model forexperimentation. I think as soon
as you can do that, you move alittle closer to building an
environment where innovation canhappen. And there's obviously
many, many more things you cando. Right? We spoke a little bit

(39:01):
about safety. So there's thisconcept around psychological
safety, where you trying toreally have people feel safe to
take a risk and to try somethingnew. Which is not easy, right?
But as soon as you built slowlythis environment of

(39:24):
psychological safety, you cansee that people are starting to
take more risks and tryingsomething new. And one of the
mechanisms I used in anorganization was to really
reward people for taking risk. Ilearned that from from nature,
being on an intrapreneur ship,sailing to the end of the world

(39:50):
with 30 students from Stanfordand 30 students from Chile. I
was teaching entrepreneurship ona ship called the
intrapreneurship. So there was aIt's a little of a of a wordplay
there. But it was fascinatingbecause we, you know, one day we
stood on the, on the top of the,of the helm. And we looked out,

(40:11):
and we saw penguins. And if youlook at colony of pellet
penguins, you see that there'salways one courageous penguin
that jumps into the water first.
And that courageous Penguin, youknow, has a 50% chance to find
food or become food, the rest ofthe colony, you know, stands

(40:33):
back and watch this carefully,you know, if that little little
person comes back up again. Andso what I've learned is that
there needs to be a courageousPenguin, in every team in every
organization to really jump intothe water first and give it a
try. So what I introduced inthis organization was the

(40:58):
penguin award, rewarding thepeople that always jumped first
from the ice shelf. Becausethat's a very important signal,
as when no one jumps, you knowwhat happens, the whole colony
basically disappears. And we seein organizations, if everybody
stands back and says, like, Idon't want to be the person who

(41:19):
jumps because I'm not gonna getrewarded for that, you see that
the whole organization willeventually disappear. So we need
to reward and recognize thosepeople who try something new,
find a new customer, try a newtechnology, find a new process,
whatever it is, to really helpto, to take risks and innovate.

Bill Duane (41:47):
I love that example.
One because it's adorable, too,if you can, you know, anything
to do with penguins or otters,I'm always a big fan of.
Secondly, as you you know, itinfers a really important point,
which is the example you usedfrom nature was an existential
threat, right? We're literallythe penguin that goes first
stanza, a decent risk of ofbeing devoured by an Orca, or

(42:09):
something along those lines. Inthe modern workplace, most of
them, perhaps maybe not atSeaWorld, the the chances of
being devoured by an orca arevery minimal. Yet we respond to
a lot of our circumstances, asthough it was an actual physical
threat. So neurobiologically,when you get a bad performance

(42:32):
review, or something doesn'twork out the way you want it to
your body mind automaticallyresponds to it as though it was
a physical, existential threat.
And particularly if the natureof the threat is not physical
that way, a lot of times thesystems that kick in, are
antithetical to the systems thatsupport creative, empathic

(42:58):
thinking. So I love that ideaof, you know, within
organizations, how can wecreate, again, the physics of
the situation that, that make itsafe that actually in a real
gentle way, remind us like, youknow, you're in and this is
something that comes up multipletimes in what's next is now is,

(43:19):
like, even if things don't goyour way, you're safe, if you
have that internal sense ofsafety, and I think a lot of
leadership and innovation isreminding people and and in a
very real way that it is safe.
And even if things don't go theway that we would have them,
that there's still a sense ofsafety there.

Frederik Pferdt (43:42):
Absolutely, yes. And we we search for that
safety all the time, right? Weare looking, if we look into the
future, we're looking for thatcertainty. That's obviously not
there, because the future isuncertain, by definition. But
we're looking to people who cantalk about the future. We're
looking to trends, we're lookingfor signals, we're looking for

(44:06):
all these indicators that helpus to create a sense of safety.
And I think that's wrong,because we are we are creating a
set of a false sense of safetyby by doing that, and engaging
in that. I think we shouldn'task ourselves, you know what the

(44:30):
future will bring? Becausethat's a passive stance you take
in relationship to the future. Ithink more importantly, we
should ask ourselves, whatfuture do I want to create? And
that's the active stance thatyou can have. And as soon as you
wish, you use shift thatquestion from what will the

(44:51):
future bring towards? Whatfuture do I want to create? You
are now showing agency you'reshowing so that you have control
over what happens next. And sothat's an important shift I
think everybody needs to make.
It's not an easy one, again,like because our brain loves

(45:12):
certainty, right? We love toknow what's gonna happen next.
But nobody can provide you thatunless you actually decide and
choose what's going to happennext. So again, like what I'm
trying to do is really empowerindividuals to not only
anticipate, but activelyparticipate in crafting their

(45:35):
futures. And that's a shift Ithink, is necessary today. As
you know, we talked to manypeople, you talk to many people,
you talk to many, you know,leaders in the world. And what
we see is that everybody lovesto talk about the past, right?
That's an easy thing to do.

(45:58):
Right? We love to talk about,you know, where we spend our our
vacation time, we love to talkabout, you know, the past
projects we did, we love to talkabout the past jobs we had. We
love to talk about things thathappened in the past, and so
forth. And, you know, that's a,that's a thing that our mind

(46:23):
just really loves to do, becauseit gives us a sense of safety.
But I think we need to shift it,we need to shift to talking more
about the future. And there'sthis concept about trying to
empathize with your future self,trying to really understand how

(46:48):
you want to be in the future.
And you see from that question,that it's not about what you
want to be in the future, like,you know, a job title or famous
or, you know, rich or whateverit is. But it's about how you
want to be in the future. And assoon as you can empathize a
little bit more about yourfuture vision and your future

(47:10):
self. And trying to connect yourbehaviors today, and what you
put in place today, I think youhave a higher chance of actually
achieving that. And so really,at the at the core of the
message I want to spread is thatis that the idea of preparing

(47:33):
for the future isn't aboutpredicting what's to come. But
about equipping yourself withthe mainstage, to navigate and
shape, what lies ahead. And thatis, I think, a shift that needs
to happen sooner than later, aswe literally are seeing changes
that are happening that arebigger than ever, that are

(47:58):
happening faster than ever, andso forth. But if you equip
yourself with that mindset andpractices necessary to be
proactive, you know, rather thanreactive, to innovate, rather
than stagnate, and to createopportunities out of
uncertainties, I think you havea wonderful chance to really

(48:21):
make that future happen that youalways desire to make happen.

Bill Duane (48:29):
There's, there's, there's so much there. It's
tough to figure out what to whatto what to drill down into.
What's coming to mind is, youknow, in the in a few minutes
ago, we're really talking aboutmistaken ways that our body mind
tries to be safe, which may beone level is to respond to

(48:54):
things as though they'rephysical threats by saying let's
make the heart rate pump, let'smake let's make him flush. Let's
make someone's digestion stop.
Let's make someone's heart raceand the chemicals that make you
want to fight that sort of onelevel of a, you know, an
honorable, but not good fittingway to deal with the situation

(49:17):
because most of our work is notif you have the privilege where
physical survival is not yourdaily tasks. So that's one
level. Now on top of that,you're almost talking at a at a
higher level of systems, where Ithink as individuals and
organizations, there's atendency to say let's solve this
problem, even if it's in acognitive way, in the same way

(49:40):
that used to work, because thatfeels reassuring. This is what
worked in the past and thereforeand again that there's an
activation energy to actuallylet go of the past and then step
into the unknown because theunknown versus the known, but
you know, if I'm hearing yourRight, it's actually staying in
stasis is dangerous. And one ofthe good things about, you know,

(50:05):
the the way the world is now, inparticular with the coming of
AI, is that I think this will beless and less of an option. I
think the timeframes in whichsticking with the status quo
ceases to become functional,will become more and more
obvious more quickly. And, youknow, and and one of the things

(50:27):
you really mentioned about,about safety is, you know, the
empathy for your future self andempathy for other selves. I
mean, I'm feeling a little bitmore sassy about using the word
out loud these days, but it'sessentially of how do we
operationalize love asindividuals as groups of people

(50:47):
working on things, right,because that's I, you know, when
I first started meditating, Iwas like, Oh, my God, I hate
myself, like so harsh withmyself. I think the only way to
turn towards some of the bigtruths, given that they're
uncomfortable, is withcompassion. Like literally, I
mean, to look at the way that Iin my life respond to things as

(51:11):
though they're a bear attack andbe like, yeah, yeah, that's very
human. That's very, and incertain situations, so useful.
How honorable is it to honor theway we used to do things the way
of our grandparents the but atthe same time, have the courage
to let go of them?

Frederik Pferdt (51:32):
Yeah, that notion. Yeah. Just Yes. Just a
word of support. I love thatnotion of being more loving,
right? Because that's exactly.
Answering that question. Forsome people around how do you
want to be in the future? And ifyou can answer that for

(51:52):
yourself, saying, I want to bemore loving. Ask yourself, what
can you do today, right now inthis moment, to move towards
that vision of becoming a moreloving human being. And there's
easy things you can do, right?
Reach out to a friend, you know,you haven't talked to, you know,

(52:15):
think about what you can begrateful for, you know, today,
yesterday, and in the past week,there's other things that you
can do right now to move towardsthat vision of becoming more
loving human being. And, youknow, we can we can replace the
word loving with, you know,other things like being more

(52:39):
kind, right, being moreforgiving. And so far, and I
think as soon as we see that, wesee that, you know, it might
might sound a little a little,you know, intriguing, but like,
then there is not the saying ofthe future is now but the future

(53:01):
is how. And that's, I think, animportant shift to make towards
how do we want to be again inthe future. And if you can
figure that out for yourself andreflect on that, then I think
you're moving towards a futurethat really is something that

(53:24):
you start to create a clearerpicture around, that you start
to imagine that use that startsto become an exciting future you
want to move towards than itstarts to become something that
you can't wait that it's goingto happen, right, and you think
you move away from that fear ofthe future and anxiety about the

(53:48):
future because it's uncertaintowards, hey, if I'm gonna be a
more loving person in thefuture, I can't wait to make
that future happen. And I thinkthat's the promise I want to
give to people is that this issomething everyone can do. This
is not something you have tostudy for, or something you have

(54:10):
to have money for, or somethingyou have to have the best
relationships for. This issomething everyone on this
planet can actually make happen.

Bill Duane (54:20):
And I think what you point to that sense of meeting
everything in life, whether itbe good news or bad news, with a
sense of excitement, and evengratitude, you know, in your
book, you mentioned a sense ofexcitement and curiosity when a
sheriff's deputy knocked on yourdoor and said, We need to
evacuate your home in 10minutes. There's a fire coming.

(54:41):
Like one of the things I and andthe more I know you the more I
deeply respect you for being forsomeone like me that can be
negative and fearful and cynicalthe idea of you need to evacuate
like you genuinely met that withcuriosity. I mean, obviously
some very practical concernabout the safety of your family

(55:02):
and some stuff like that. But I,you know, for the folks that are
listening that might not knowyou as well, like, I really want
to underscore that you say thatwith utter integrity, that that
is possible.

Frederik Pferdt (55:15):
Absolutely, yeah. So first, if I may share
in advice is like, stop watchingthe news. It's, it's most of the
time not really helpful. Ifyou're curious about something,
you know, there's other ways offinding, finding out. The second
thing is, it just surprised me,after that evacuation order came

(55:39):
in, you know, the police officerknocked at our doors. And we
literally, as a family of fivehad to, you know, pack our stuff
in 10 minutes and leave ourhome. Not knowing if we ever
will return. Right, that was,you know, met with, again, like
Curiosity, openness, and a senseof optimism, right? Because

(56:02):
that's the only thing you cantake with you. I read about a
couple of stories where actuallypeople responded differently, or
I would say, reacted notresponded. Some people were
actually fighting these officersfor sharing that message, right?
Because they blamed the officerfor you know, the fire, which is
like a totally for me, notunderstandable reaction that you

(56:28):
can have, some people were notleaving at all right, they just,
you know, said like, Oh, we'regonna stay here, right. And
we're not following any, anyorders or any rules, and we're
just gonna risk the fireman'slives, right, because they have
to rescue these people who werenot following these orders. So
there's just a various reactionsthat people are having towards,

(56:53):
if someone tells you, you know,that something tragic is
happening, right. And it's forme, it's so interesting that you
can disconnect sometimes fromthe person who brings you the
news for, like an an actuallyblaming that person that they

(57:15):
are responsible for the for thenews as well. And so for me, it
was it was not, in my mind, eventhat, you know, that this
officer is actually responsiblefor the wildfires, right, he
wants to protect us, and hewants to help us. So obviously,
yeah, let's, let's let'sevacuate, and at the same time,

(57:36):
respond to that situation with,you know, optimism, openness,
and a sense of curiosity,because that's the way that
helps you to, to, I think, tojust signal to not just your
yourself, but to others that,you know, this is this is the

(57:59):
only way you can respond andcreate an opportunity down the
line where whatever is going tohappen, you know, you still have
to continue making a living, andyou have to still continue to
live your life and so forth. So,yeah, thanks for bringing back
that, that memory and thatstory, and I still feel, you

(58:22):
know, everybody out there can,can really think for a couple of
seconds, you know, when thatstimulus happens, right? When
news are going to be shared withyou, or some some tragedy
happens in your life or someillness or some loss in your
family, whatever it is that, youknow, just pause for a couple

(58:46):
of, of seconds and and chooseyour respond. Because sometimes,
that really makes the biggestdifference.

Bill Duane (58:58):
Amazing. And there's there's two promises implicit in
that, in what everything youjust unpacked. One is that your
internal state can be moreindependent of your external
circumstances than it seems.
Right? So you just you justmentioned even when things are
very intense that it ispossible, to meet that with a
sense of openness and curiosity,which is sort of intrinsically

(59:21):
easier to get through. So in themoment, the mindset, a future
ready mindset, if I can stealyour phrase, is allows you and
then that the second part, whichI think also speaks to, you
know, how innovation shows up inorganizations is, so not only is
it is it helpful for feelingbetter, because your internal

(59:42):
state is not directly yoked toexternal circumstances. But then
it's also it's the smart play,right, that when we have a very
narrow sense of what's possible,quite literally, the options for
moving Forward, are, are very,very narrow. If we can cultivate

(01:00:02):
this mindset where we can thinkbeyond the fear, then there's
literally more ways oftraversing the problem space
open up. So something I reallytry and underscore, and this is
the research that I've beendoing around the Buddhism and AI
stuff is that this is the smartplay, particularly when things
are emergent, that literally,this sense of kindness and

(01:00:27):
openness. Is it's functional. Asa matter of fact, I think we can
make very strong databasedarguments that this is the smart
play. And I think when we talkabout overcoating, over, you
know, the activation energy,like when I work with

(01:00:47):
organizations, I'm alwaysthinking, what are the
inhibitors towards either thiskindness, or understanding what
your values are? Or even whatyour short term needs are. So,
you know, you and I both came tomeditation, I did not start
meditation so that I could seethe oneness and the universality

(01:01:07):
of love, although that's where Iended up many years later,
right. I was like, I just don'twant to feel shitty all the
time. And so I think it's reallypossible. And I think it's
advisable for people that aretrying to create innovation
within situations ororganizations to be very
thoughtful about how am Iovercome the activation energy

(01:01:27):
by being of service? Even ifit's something that's this
serves a short term need, thatthen sets the stage for this
opening up of of possibility?

Frederik Pferdt (01:01:41):
Absolutely, yeah. So so how did you respond?
If I may ask you, November 22.
As you can probably recall, thatwas when AI really took off
where open AI, you know,launched GPT. And, you know,
gave people access to generativeAI, basically, how was your

(01:02:05):
initial reaction or response?
When you know, such a shifthappened, you know, and it could
be the same for like, march2020, you know, when the
pandemic started, or, you know,you pick a date, or an instance
in, in the world that happened,and just checking in on

(01:02:28):
yourself, like, what was thefirst reaction and responds to
these big shifts.

Bill Duane (01:02:36):
So it's interesting that you bring up one new one
situation fraught with apositive possibility, although
some negatives, which is AI, andsomething that I'm intrinsically
thinking is cool, versus thepandemic, which is sort of the
opposite of that. That's a bitof a forcing function to say in
which way they're similar. Andwhat popped to mind immediately
about my reaction to thosesituations was all right, there

(01:03:01):
was a sense of the sense of thepossible is far greater than I
thought it might be. And one ofthe ways that humans respond to
that is, is with a sense of allwhich is an interesting balance
of fear and excitement, butparticularly one where the
context of what's going on is somuch larger than the perceiver.

(01:03:21):
You know, and we were talkingabout sacred architecture and
spiritual architecture. Youknow, one common theme across
all different faith traditionsis the seek to recontextualize
the individual human, and torealize that you are, in fact
part of a much, much greaterwhole. So I would say my
reaction to both of those was avery primal sense of awe. And I

(01:03:46):
think that sense of awe isreally a razor's edge where the
kinds of things that you'reespousing in what's next is now
can I help you have some agencyand tipping over into the, this
is going to be a wild ride? Evenand, you know, it's interesting,
I've been hanging out with a lotof Tibetans and practicing and
the Tibetan versions ofBuddhism, and, you know, their,

(01:04:08):
their teachings around the Bardois even the process of death is
exactly that. Is that is that itis an adventure and a wild ride
in which some, you have someagency in it.

Frederik Pferdt (01:04:20):
Yes. Thanks for sharing your response. Because,
you know, if you would ask, youknow, other people and, you
know, listeners, you can you cancheck on yourself. How do you
respond to change overall,right, because the change itself
is not positive or negative inthe first place. It's what you

(01:04:43):
make out of it, right?
Eventually, that matters. Andthere's this beautiful, old
story. You probably know, fromthe Chinese farmer that lives in
a village. I try to recite itbriefly. So, you know, they

(01:05:07):
lived an old farmer in a smallvillage in China, who had worked
his crops for many years. Andone day, his horse ran away. And
upon hearing the news, hisneighbors and the whole
community came over to visithim. And what they said to him,

(01:05:28):
was such bad luck. The farmerresponded, we'll see. And the
next morning, the horsereturned, bringing with it three
other wild horses. Then again,the community and the neighbors
came over to see the farmer andthey said, how wonderful for

(01:05:51):
farmer replied, we'll see. Andthe following day, his son tried
to ride one of the horses andwas thrown off, broke his leg.
Again, the neighbors came overto offer their sympathy for the

(01:06:11):
misfortune. And the former said,we'll see. And the day after the
military officials came to thevillage to draft young men into
the army, because the war cheststarted. And seeing that the
sons leg was broken, they passedby. And so the neighbors again

(01:06:36):
came over, congratulated thefarmer on how well things had
turned out. The farmer replied,we'll see. And so I think it's a
beautiful story where, you know,seeing situations just as they
appear, right, and approachingthem with a sense of openness,

(01:07:03):
but also, you know, in that, inthat response, we'll see.
turning them into, you know,opportunities or challenges is
something that, you know, youcan you can choose, but also,
it's not set by the, by the, bythe instance, of the of the

(01:07:28):
situation happening, right. Sowhen AI came around November 22,
right, that's not something goodor something bad. It's what you
make out of it. Right. And Ithink keeping an open mind and
responding will, with we'll see,and let's try it out, you know,

(01:07:50):
is probably the perfect approachto to the future. Because that
really puts you into a spotwhere you respond to change in a
way that that you approachchange with what you can
control. And at the same timeshowing agency in how you want

(01:08:10):
to use these things in thefuture, and how you, for
example, want to use AI as well.

Bill Duane (01:08:21):
I can't imagine a better way to sum up everything
we've talked about. So I'll justleave it with saying, Frederick,
thank you so much. One thing inparticular I want to offer
gratitude for is ourrelationship and what I've
learned from you, when westarted, we were quite different

(01:08:43):
people using quite differentmethods to navigate the
complexity and ambiguity of theworld, one of the great
pleasures of our friendship,what started off as being
colleagues and then becamefriendship is that we've both
actually moved towards eachother as domains and found them
to be very complementary, whichI think has has served both of
our lives well, as well as thegroups of people and situations

(01:09:06):
that we seek to, to help. Andthen also, it's just, it's, it's
just been so nice to become acloser friend of yours. Because
of it, we certainly have moreability to be vulnerable with
each other and all the thingsthat that sense of safety
brings. So I wanted to finish byjust expressing gratitude for

(01:09:27):
you and the fact that we've hada chance to be colleagues and
friends for so many years.

Frederik Pferdt (01:09:32):
Wonderful. And that's that's what I what I love
about you, Bill, is that, youknow, you you share that
gratitude, while knowing theresearch that you know, it makes
makes me happy, right when youshare these things, but also it
makes you happy too, which issomething we sometimes oversee.
And so I'll do the same thatI've learned from you. I'll

(01:09:54):
share the sense of gratitudethat I have for you and what are
you teaching now? Just to me,but to the world, I think it's
super powerful and superimportant, especially now with
the rise of AI and how youbridge that with mindfulness,
how your work on innovation,with, you know, this podcast on

(01:10:18):
the heart of innovation reallytouches on the emotions, the
feelings, the body and mindrelationship that, you know, we
want to explore when it comes toinnovation. And I think that's
something I'm deeply gratefulfor. And I think everybody can
be grateful for when listeningto you and your teachings. So
keep doing it. And in the spiritof a future ready mind state, I

(01:10:43):
just, you know, deeply gratefulthat you show all these
dimensions that I am passionateabout, starting from radical
optimism to unreserved opennessto deep empathy and a sense of
experimentation and a deepcuriosity as well. So, keep,

(01:11:09):
keep practicing those, I thinkthose are going to be very
helpful for you and for everyoneto really build a future that we
all desire. Yeah,

Bill Duane (01:11:21):
thank you. And if other people enjoyed this
conversation as much as I did,and want to go deeper and look
into this, I can't recommendyour new book, is it? Is it out
yet? Or I was able to get a prerelease about a pre release
copy? Is it available right now?

Frederik Pferdt (01:11:37):
On June 18. And June 18. Title is what's next is
now how to live future ready.

Bill Duane (01:11:45):
Exactly. And so it is available for pre order
amongst a couple of things. Andso, as I mentioned, you were
kind enough to provide a galleycopy. And then also I did, I did
preorder it and can't recommendit enough. It's sort of
everything we talked about atmultiple levels deeper, as well
as stories. It was so great tosee, you know, Newton Chang and

(01:12:06):
Sarah Devereaux, and AdamLeonard and all my some other
people that are that are dearfriends that we both have in the
past. If you'd like this, you'llyou'll you'll love the book.
Fantastic. Thank you, Frederick.
Thank you so much. I lookforward to seeing you when we're
both in the same physical spaceeither in a geodesic dome or in
San Francisco.

Frederik Pferdt (01:12:27):
Wonderful.
Thank

Unknown (01:12:28):
you, Bill. Take care.