How to reinvent yourself to reinvent the world

Today we get to talk to Meg Salter about how humans develop and how that can allow you to innovate at the core - who you are - and how that can enable creative and innovative action and how we can even use life's deepest pain to spur growth.

Meg Salter is an internationally experienced Executive Coach and Management Consultant.  and works with corporate, public sector and non-profit clients.

As an Integral Master Coach™, Meg supports leaders to develop the mental, emotional and interpersonal capacities needed to handle the greater complexity required at pivot points as their careers or organizations change. These involve the abilities to frame context, direction and outcomes needed and work with diverse point of view

A skilled teacher of mindfulness, she incorporates mindfulness and self-awareness techniques into coaching programs and leadership development. 

Intro and Outro music kind courtesy of Taraval.

Episode Transcript

Bill Duane (00:00):
Hi, welcome to the heart of innovation Podcast. I'm
Bill Duane former Googleengineering executive and
Superintendent of wellbeing andcourage consultant and speaker
on innovation strategy. We'regoing to be diving deep into the
internal innovation that unlocksexternal innovation and the
surprisingly practical ways wecan become better innovators.
We'll be in conversation withinnovators from many different

(00:22):
backgrounds and contexts,including business, science,
social change and technology andnot only benefit from their
expertise, but also theirpersonal stories of their
innovation journey. Today, weget to talk to make Psalter
about how humans develop andheld that can allow you to
innovate at the very core of whoyou are, and how that can then
enable creative and innovativeaction. Meg is an

(00:44):
internationally experiencedexecutive coach and management
consultant who works withcorporate public sector and
nonprofit clients with 20 yearsexperience. As an integral
master coach, she supportsleaders to develop the mental,
emotional and interpersonalcapacities needed to handle
greater complexity required atpivot points as their careers or
organizations change. A skilledteacher of mindfulness she

(01:07):
incorporates mindfulness andself awareness techniques into
coaching programs and leadershipdevelopment.
So welcome, Meg to the heart ofinnovation. Very happy to have
you here today. I am delightedto be with you, Bill. And you
are in Toronto, I'm in Toronto,Canada. That's right. So I am

(01:28):
going to defer for a second thenormal question of what do you
think of innovation and ask themore pertinent question of what
are your thoughts on Rush? Oh,what a rush.

Meg Salter (01:40):
You do? They were a great band. They were a great
man. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, what isfeeling? What a rush? Yeah. Did
you ever get a chance to listento the when you were growing up?
Yes, I did. Yeah. Jealous? Yeah.
Jealous? Yeah. Anyway, Icouldn't I couldn't let a friend
from Toronto come up without,without harassing them about
about a rush question. By theway, for anybody listening, the

(02:01):
heart of innovation is now apodcast about the music in times
of Canadian band Rush. And sofor the rest of this, we will be
talking about, you know, I'm notsaying it's going to be limited
only to rush. You know, we canalso talk about The Tragically
Hip or, you know, pretty muchany any Canadian band that came
out of the bar scene of the 70s.

Bill Duane (02:26):
But until that happens, we can talk about this
innovation stuff.
So Meg whether when I sayinnovation, how, what thoughts
pop into your mind? Or how doyou define innovation? Well, you
know, Bill, I've got a coachingand a business background. So

Meg Salter (02:46):
coaching is all about helping someone develop a
new way of being and a new wayof doing. So that's one way of
understanding innovation is thefostering of something new, and
ideally healthy and productive.
And it's about understanding thecontext for that. And sometimes

(03:11):
it's also about understandingwhat is keeping the existing
current way of being in place.

Bill Duane (03:21):
Hmm. So like that there's, there's two parts to
it, there's the individual partof it. And we'll get into that
for the whole rest of the timearound skills about not only
doing but being, and I thinkit's the it's that first part
that really tends to getoverlooked. And then when you
also talk about the contextabout what are the inhibitors in

(03:44):
I'm guessing that some of thoseinhibitors can be internally
generated, or externallygenerated the last podcast?
Guest I had on my friend Roxywas really talking about some of
the structural stuff around raceand gender that can be
inhibitory. But it sounds likeyou're talking about not only
from the individual side, butalso the organizational side.

Meg Salter (04:04):
Absolutely. I mean, there's always the inside and
the outside of anything, anyorganism has an inside and an
outside. And a lot of the peopleI work with are quite successful
already. And what is keepingtheir way of being and
particularly their sort ofmindset in place is that it has
worked, it has been successful.
They have been paid handsomely,to be a certain kind of way. And

(04:30):
it meets certain kind oforganizational needs or a
strategic context. So when anyof those things shift, when it
gets out of sync, then you'vegot room for novelty.

Bill Duane (04:49):
Room for novelty makes it sounds so benign, I
know in my own life, in my owndevelopment as a leader and
executive, I'd say the harshestkind of innovation. is when you
need to re innovate somethingthat has been successful for you
in the past, and then some sortof context changed either. And

(05:10):
for me, the the toughest one wasgetting promoted were a certain
set of being and doingstrategies that were the reason
why that got you there in thefirst place, then become
neutral, and then negative andhaving to dismantle something
that's been positive for you.
That's, that's some of thetoughest kind of innovation,

(05:31):
it's

Meg Salter (05:32):
it external, because your identity is tied up to that
your paycheck is tied up to thatyour relationships are tied up
to that. But as other veryfamous coaches have said, what
got you here will not get youthere.

Bill Duane (05:48):
Yeah, it's so strange one hears that advice.
And you think, and this isagain, where I think this
emphasis on being comes from youhear that you hear that advice
at one level may be at thecognitive level. And it can
almost land like a platitude.
But for me, I'll give you anexample of one of the harshest
lessons I learned I call it thelesson of the invisible
megaphone. So I went from beinga line manager to a boss of boss

(06:11):
of boss. And I really likehaving warm interpersonal
contacts. And I love jokingaround. And part of this is what
helped me create high trustrelationships to to operate
really well. But in a certainlayer in the hierarchy that was
new, that behavior wasdestructive. Absolutely, because

(06:35):
because people said, oh, no,this guy in charge, who I don't
know any of his context, ismaking a joke that that sounds
negative about my project, orwhat to me. And the reason why
I'm tying this back to being isthat I was doing it so that I
felt good because humor, andjokes make me feel good. And the

(06:56):
sad, difficult thing I had tosay is, do I want to have that
feeling of humor? Or do I wantto do harm to the people that
ostensibly I'm here to maketheir lives better. And there's
a deep sadness in putting thataway, it's counterbalanced by
the idea that you're doing itfor the right reasons is that an

(07:18):
example of what you were talkingabout is,

Meg Salter (07:21):
and let me put let me broaden out that example a
little bit, you were used tocreating relations of ships of
trust to warm through jokingaround. And so when you become
in a new role, that way ofcreating trust no longer works?
In fact, it's counterproductive.
So but trust is still animportant value for you. So the

(07:44):
question becomes, what doestrust look like for me? And for
other people? Like, how are theygoing to read the trust signals,
and you have to let go of a wayof creating trust that was
pretty much guaranteed, and trysomething brand new, that you
have no idea whether it's goingto work? In fact, I can probably

(08:08):
tell you for the first littlewhile, it won't work that well,
because you're not gonna youknow, you're not good at it yet.
You're not skilled at it yet. Sothere is, you know, that sort of
letting go that transcendingfinding something new, but also
with through line. And so inthis case, the example that
you're bringing this throughline is creating trust.

Bill Duane (08:29):
Yeah, and really, then, I mean, something I found
both in my own life and incoaching and advising other
people, is that the bridge thatcan hold up, right, because the
the new, the new structure, thenew edifice is not going to be
as well built as the old one,because it's brand new, you
know, but this almost like, howdo you the, the thing to put

(08:50):
over the gap is, is one values,you know, I'm doing this in the
name of trust. And I think Ithink that helps give us
stability of purpose, to try outthe new thing. And then, you
know, we're also both bothmeditators and the ability to
feel the, in the body, thearising of discomfort of not

(09:15):
knowing what you're doing, orthe awkwardness of doing and the
awkwardness of trying somethingout on a new on a very big
stage. And then the ability tostay with those sensations and
then again, constantly turn tothere is a felt sense of comfort
that goes alongside of I am, Iam putting myself in a tough
situation for the benefit ofothers and for the benefit of

(09:38):
trust at the expense of what hasbeen something that was
pleasant.

Meg Salter (09:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, I mean, ideally, you'retrying out these new moves in a
moderate kind of way in a pilotproject kind of way, rather than
perhaps for a large shareholdermeeting. And you've got a
support team around you, whichcould be a coach, which could be
a buddy, who monitors you andyou have enough. You're

(10:06):
developing enough sensitivity,both outside of you to look
around at. Some people arereally good at reading faces
reading the room, how is thisgoing monitoring external
energy? Some people are moreattuned to reading internal
energies. So you know, where isthis new positive feedback loop
coming, it may literally be in adifferent part of the body than

(10:28):
the old feedback loop. Soattending to energies, excuse
me, for one sec, this isslipping. Attending to different
kinds of energies, locatingwhere in the body, those
energies are. Mindfulness canreally help you with this kind
of fine sensory discernment.

(10:50):
It's kind of like retuning aninstrument.

Bill Duane (10:55):
So I want to I want to pop up a level in in your
beautiful response, we had thetreat of hearing that you have
several different domains ofexpertise. I'm wondering, can we
hear your superhero origin storyabout how you became master
meditator? Coach organizationaldesign? I just I'd love to hear

(11:20):
how you how you got to thispoint.

Meg Salter (11:22):
Oh, Bill. It's so ordinary. It's so goofing
around.

Bill Duane (11:27):
Yes, the usual.
Yeah.

Meg Salter (11:29):
I mean, it started I started working office work,
when it was pretty primitive.
And I quit University in a huffof irritation. And all of a
sudden, I was reporting topeople who had less education
than I did. And that was a goodlesson because I learned brand
new ways to have fun.

Bill Duane (11:48):
We were hanging out time Timeout, timeout. What,
what, what led you rage quitUniversity? Oh, you can't let
that go.

Meg Salter (11:55):
I was pursuing psychology and something rather.
And I had the first of many lifecrises, I thought, Oh, this is
all useless. This is alluseless. So I had left home
previously, I was following thestandard familial path. And you
know, early 20s, late teens, I'mgoing to be different than my

(12:17):
parents, which hopefully many ofus get a chance to do so. And
what that did was it. It reallygave me a feel for frontline
work. And the enormous what goesinto frontline work often
undersung underpaid, they had togo out to work during COVID Many

(12:39):
people so I mean, I did that fora number of years. So that kind
of attuned me to a differentrange of people, which is great,
absolutely great. Best friendlearn how to flirt for sure.

Bill Duane (12:57):
Is that part of the art says just people do I offer
that flirting and as maybe notpart of my friend. I think I
think you should I think youshould start at tick tock. And
maybe,

Meg Salter (13:10):
maybe we'll put it under leadership presence, shall
we?

Bill Duane (13:14):
No, no, we should not put flirting in anything to
do with work. Maybe in France,that would be a great product
did the US I think I think we'dbe giving poor advice.

Meg Salter (13:23):
Anyway, I did go back to school. I worked in the
financial sector for a number ofyears, I worked for smaller
organizations and and then largeorganizations. We got married as
it turned out, second timeround, we moved to Europe. I
worked for the tech sector, bothin Canada. And in London,

(13:45):
England, I didn't MBA in Londonand Brussels. My My husband was
working for the InternationalDivision of one of the large
Canadian banks came back and hada national roll for a large
Canadian bank, which got me intomarketing and strategy and
quality improvement and allthose kinds of things sort of
got me into change management.
And somewhere in there, I wasstill working for the bank

(14:12):
national roll two kids payingoff the mortgage, couple cars on
the driveway. You think you haveit together, right? You think
you have it together? And mybrother's suicide it and it was
a huge shock to all of us. Noneof us were ever the same again.
And you know, back in my youknow, university days, I've been

(14:35):
taking Philosophy and ReligiousStudies and you know, you read a
few books and got a credit so itwas just great. And after words,
but a few months afterwards, Ihad a little voice in my head
that said you should meditate oryou could end up like Johnny and
I thought that was his heartShort NBA. And I didn't hear

(15:00):
voices, but this one kind ofpersisted. So I started up
taking up a meditation practice.
So for quite a long time now,career and family, I have now
two wonderful grown daughters.
And meditation had just allintertwined. So I left, you
know, after several decades, Ileft large corporate work, I

(15:23):
went into small boutiqueconsulting firms doing change
management, org design, thatkind of stuff. Always attracted
to theories that wereacknowledged complexity of
organizations that haveacknowledged enhancing levels of
developmental maturity andcomplexity, whether it's in the

(15:45):
organization or the individual,and started off doing individual
coaching, because it was scary.
It was scary to be intimate withsomebody rather than protected
being by being on a stage andhaving a giant binder. So took
some training through integralcoaching Canada, which is one of

(16:08):
North America's top trainingschools, and have been doing
individual coaching for about adozen years now. Yeah, so that's
kind of the short, meanderingroad. And usually, you know,
something, it's that old theory,you're doing a current way, and
it's working fine. And thensomething that doesn't work

(16:28):
anymore, either in you orexternally. And you got to
figure out something new.

Bill Duane (16:35):
So you just mentioned a whole big arc. And,
you know, I, of course want to,you know, extend my condolences
around the death of yourbrother. And also honor, the
positive change that happened asa result of that. I think both
in terms of for in my own life,you know, it was the worst thing

(16:59):
in my life, my dad's death, thatwas actually this pivot point.
You know, I think I think it'snot until things are difficult
enough, like, I don't think fatdumb and happy is a great
platform to make deep changefrom and on the one hand is, is
we wish everybody to have ease,and a good life. And you know,

(17:23):
the Tibetans have the saying,May you have the appropriate
amount of difficulty. So one isI really just want to
acknowledge just the depth ofof, you know, of what suicide
brings, particularly into theinto the family unit. And then
I'm curious, when you said therewas a voice, so a lot of times
our intuition, there's differentkinds of knowledge. So if we're

(17:46):
in the business world, we'reused to seeing our knowledge in
graphs, in PowerPoints. And sothe idea that these different
very important, and in thiscase, you're also mentioning
novel source of data, can youtell me if you're comfortable
with it, how how that dataarrived, of, you know, some idea

(18:07):
of attention must be paid, likethere was this, this was
something really different?

Meg Salter (18:11):
Yeah. I mean, I can still remember, Sunday morning,
Sunshine streaming in thewindow. And all of a sudden,
you're hearing this voice inyour head. If I look back on it,
the stressors, if you'refortunate if you have enough

(18:32):
supports around you. And I wasfortunate, I had a stable
marriage, the kids were healthy.
I had a job, the mortgage wasgetting paid off, like there
were other solid things inplace. If those aren't there,
then that same stressor can drawyou in. So I really want to
acknowledge the relativelyhealthy context and support I

(18:52):
could draw on. If I look back onit now a new sort of a
developmental perspective. Itwas a new part of me coming
online. It was the part of methat had wanted depths and
meaning in my late teens andearly 20s, but sort of said, No,
I think I'm going to get a joband be treated respectfully and

(19:13):
have a career and all thosethings. So I was kind of looking
for more depths and had thisvague sense that something was
missing. And there was there's along time ago bill, there was a
quality of perception that wasdifferent. It was short, not

(19:37):
wordy. And just like it left animpression, like pay attention
to me. And it sunk in and Ithought okay, I've heard of this
stuff. I tried it before. Didn'tlike it.

Bill Duane (19:58):
The meditation my head, try

Meg Salter (20:00):
did it before I, you know, gone down to Rochester and
gone to the Rochester ZenCenter, but no way too much tofu
for me in those days. And I'vealways, the other thing is, I've
always been attracted to, theseare things that can be
applicable in the midst of dailylife. And I think that goes back

(20:23):
to my own personal life a fatherwho ran off at one point, and
came back, you know, earlierrelationships with a guy takes
off with the money. So part ofme goes, we're gonna have wisdom
in the middle of the world, notup on the hill. And the deeper
perspective, as I articulate nowis that the world is not

(20:48):
something to be run away fromthe world is sacred. We are here
to do our growth and developmentand learning and loving on this
planet, in this world,surrounded by these other
creatures. And yes, it can begreat to have moment times of
intensive training. And I'vedone that regularly. But the

(21:11):
proof is in your conduct.
So it's easy to be loving allbeings, when you're all by
yourself. It's much harder whenyou're at a screaming match with
a teenageror in a tricky q&a session or
making a pitch for funding.

Bill Duane (21:32):
Right? I want to jump back to something you said
just really jumped out at methis idea that there was a new
part of you coming online, froma developmental standpoint, and
one of the things that reallyjumps out at me about your work
and your book, is this inclusionof the developmental process as

(21:57):
an overlay to to all of thesethings. And so I think one of
the things that is reallyhelpful for people is even the
idea that new new parts of youwill come online at various
points. And that the way they dois really varies from person to

(22:19):
person. When I was listening toyou, it sounded like it was
literally a voice that youheard. Right. And, you know, my
friend, Scott shoot, he wrote abook called Full body, yes. And
for him, his whole body just assome version of stand up and
applaud like, it's just it'svery somatic for him. Whereas

(22:42):
for you, it's very narrative.
And I would imagine I waswatching a YouTube video on Duke
Ellington, who had synesthesia,who would see the tambor of his
musicians as as color andtexture, you know, blue burlap.
Yeah, for the baritonesaxophone. And so, you know, one
of the things I think that'samazing is to give people the

(23:03):
heads up to be on the lookout,because I don't think as coaches
or teachers, you can tellsomeone what it's going to be.
And I think these experiencescan be so disjoint from work a
day previous methods ofcognition, that they can be
dismissed for their weirdnessor, you know, I'm sure if you

(23:24):
start hearing voices, during aperiod of intense grief, you
might say, this could be apathological this could be the
beginning of a mental break.

Meg Salter (23:35):
Absolutely. And I have family members who are
schizophrenic. So I am veryaware of voices in the head. So
yes, I mean, we all have ourdifferent ways of apprehending
reality. I tend to have a lot ofpretty strong inner radar, I

(23:55):
have a strong introversion. Forother people, it could be very
interpersonal or relational. Allof a sudden, the people you hang
with are just boring. Or, or adifferent kind of, like you're,
you know, it's who yourrelationships. Other people know
it through their body, forexample, the energies that we

(24:18):
know what keeps them going. Sothere were, you know, I'm kind
of using some of the fourquadrants there. But there are
lots of ways of discerning thatstill small voice now for me, it
was a voice but it may be atingle in the body. But I think
the marker is this feelsdifferent. It's got that kind

(24:40):
of, I've lived in Frenchspeaking countries recordable.
It's got a freestyle, it's got adifferent texture. And if you're
open to that different texture,you know, ah, this is something
you don't know. You tell, thisis something different coming.
This is something differentgoing on, I better pay
attention.

Bill Duane (24:59):
So I think that's really The interesting
especially the way that it canmean falling out of love with a
with a thing or an activity. Sofor instance, I've always been a
musician. And so I always hadall my guitars in my office. And
then I felt really bad because Iwasn't playing them anymore. And
then I thought, well, let metake them out of their cases and

(25:20):
put them in like a stage stacksa stage stand, so I can just
pick them up and play. And thenI still did. And I felt bad
about it. Because this was apart of who I was, this is how
part of people know me. There'sa bit of identity in there. And
then at one point, I realized Ijust don't want to play guitar
anymore.

Meg Salter (25:39):
I played piano for 10 years. And then I just
thought, I don't want topractice anymore.

Bill Duane (25:44):
Yeah, and it's that shift. But I do think that we
can get into extrapolate Natoriin nurses about stuff we've done
in the past. So in other words,when I had one of these many
shifts happen, I was resistantto it, because it almost felt
like I was out of integrity.
Because I had said to myselfwith some harshness, you should
fucking practice those guitars.

(26:07):
And then when I didn't, and thenI finally realized, oh, no, it's
I don't enjoy it anymore. AndI'm in charge of me. And I don't
have

Meg Salter (26:14):
to right. Now, were you a professional musician at
the time Bill? No, what if youwere? Hmm. What if you were a
professional musician and yourlivelihood depended on it and a
couple scrawny kids? I'm justsaying, and the same thing hit.
So we're upping the pressurenow. Right? Yes. So that I run

(26:40):
into that in organizations alot, right, you're being there's
an external requirement, you arebeing paid to do something
rather. And all of a sudden, itjust doesn't give you the juice
anymore.

Bill Duane (26:54):
So what do you recommend in those situations

Meg Salter (27:00):
not to make an immediate switch. Sometimes, you
can change the role in theorganization, right? Sometimes
you can't, sometimes it's adifferent way of coming at the
same position. And sometimesthat might mean a fairly

(27:23):
significant change. Right, interms of changing job or
changing organization, orwhatever, but there's often more
flex and wiggle room than youwould think. Because we've
created the role suited the waywe were, but there's more room
for maneuvering that we haven'teven seen yet.

Bill Duane (27:44):
I think so. And then also is, you know, every
activity can serve differentneeds. So if one of those needs
is, you know, vitality, andfreedom of action, then if that
pays really, really well, andlets you put some in the bank,
and there's a way for you tocounterbalance the absence. So
not every activity has to pushevery button. So what I love,

(28:07):
love, love when working with theute, with, with with students
with you know, Gen z's inparticular is meaning and
purpose is so much moreimportant than it was to my
generation Gen X and previousgenerations, that they're just
not willing to forego it. Ithink, in part because the

(28:30):
system they're walking into doesnot is not delivering on the
promises, that if you if youtrade your happiness, you will
have a certain level of, ofmaterial comfort, and no, these
systems are just going toextract everything they can out
of you so so they're really intomeaning and purpose. But I think
that means that young people canover index on that to say that

(28:50):
I'm supposed to be head over inheels, head over heels in love
with every aspect of what I'mdoing. Whereas some aspect of
what you're doing serves onegoal. And then one aspect serves
another goal. So I think youradvice is really is really wise
not to make not to just havewhether or not you're doing hand

(29:11):
flips over it be the onlycriteria. Plus

Meg Salter (29:15):
even if you're doing hand flips at the beginning,
there's always a honeymoonstage. Hmm. And after six months
to a year, you're probably notdoing hand flips. And the shadow
side of any situation isbeginning to surface itself. So
meaning and purpose can beunderstood and followed in many

(29:37):
different ways. So you don'tneed to leave that vector
behind.

Bill Duane (29:45):
And I think India to your point, so there was so
because transit in the Bay Areais so poor, a lot of the tech
companies run bus services toand from San Francisco downtown.
of Silicon Valley. And one ofthe bus drivers. His name is
Lloyd. And you know Lloyd's jobon paper is to get Google

(30:11):
employees to and from campusfrom San Francisco safely and
reasonably quickly. Lloyd'sexperience of the job is is is
that he gets that done. But hehas a he has a knack for names.
So he learns everybody's name.
Everyone is greeted by name witha fist bump if you've taken that
bus more than three or fourtimes. And Lloyd also would give

(30:31):
us shit. Like when we're pullingin, he's like, okay, entitled
Googlers, we're here to drop youoff at your overpaid job. So you
know, it was just give us like alittle bit of a hard time when
he was dropping us off. So itwas clear that he loved us. But
also, you know, in a little bitof an older brother, yeah, kind
of way, and the sense of warmth,and smiling and community. And

(30:54):
if you are in a Lloyd bus,you're like, Oh, this is
fantastic. And then I leftGoogle a long time ago, from
time to time, it hasn't happenedsince before the end of COVID.
And I wonder what Lloyd is upto, since I was Lloyds first
stop, when I would get there, wejust have a chance to hang out
while he was having his coffeefor a few moments. So I wouldn't
be walking around myneighborhood in Haight Ashbury

(31:16):
in San Francisco when I wouldhear the tute of a double decker
bus horn. And just as, as one ofthese buses went by, I would
just hear like, I go. So allthis to say, and looping this
back to your previous point is,I think a lot of times people
get hung up on the jobdescription, part of their jobs

(31:39):
and looking for meaning andpurpose. Whereas given the
richness of human collaboration,the constant need to figure out
new ways of doing things, youknow, these areas of meaning,
and purpose and richness are allover the place. And important in
your case, you're mentioning,sometimes they're just coming
into view of Oh, I really valuehuman connection. Yeah, for

(32:03):
example. Yeah.

Meg Salter (32:05):
And, you know, speaking about Lloyd, and many,
many zillions of others, noteverybody gets the chance to
make those kinds of choices,privileged choices. And yet, you
can still, you know, I valuecreating a little bit of
sunshine in the world. Or, youknow, there's a job description

(32:29):
on paper, and it's only everpartial. And then you realize,
oh, I'm, I'm going to do thiswork. And I'm going to try and
figure out how better tocollaborate, for example, or how
better to stand up from my pointof view, or whatever that is. So
there are there's ends. Butthere's also means and keeping

(32:56):
both of those in mind can be oneof the ways to expand your
leverage, if you will.

Bill Duane (33:04):
So, thinking about this idea of adult development
and imagine there might be somepeople listening who are
somewhat familiar with it, couldyou give like maybe just like a
short overview of adultdevelopment and how it ties into
this notion of reinventingoneself or within a group of

(33:25):
reinventing something or justjust in general.

Meg Salter (33:29):
The notion of adult development has been the notion
of development has been aroundfor quite a while ever since
Piaget and child development.
And the notion that childrendevelop not only physically but
emotionally and cognitively isvery well documented. And maybe
2030 years ago, people began topursue the same thing and adults

(33:50):
and I can tell you is apersonal, huge relief, to know
that development of more complexways of meaning making of
perceiving the world arepossible after the age of 22.
It's wonderful. We all grow anddevelop as children, we grow

(34:16):
physically, we grow fromunderstanding ourselves as the
center of the world tounderstanding other people are
also people in their own right.
It's called theory of mind. Wegrow from there are many models,
the one I have found mostproductive and evidence based is

(34:37):
the status model through TerryO'Fallon. And understanding how
many perspectives can we take isone way of understanding it and
this has enormous application inthe ordinary world. So a small
child takes their ownperspective first person, you
know, little kid hides theirhead under the rug and because I
can't see you, therefore, youcan't see me right It is cute.

(35:03):
They lend later on learn to takea second person perspective to
really understand how somebodyelse feels to value friendships
and relationships more thantoys. For example, this can
develop even into

Bill Duane (35:17):
some people never reached that point, especially
with the toys, especially when

Meg Salter (35:21):
the toys are expensive. This, you know, one
of the ways of understandingdevelopment, picking up on some
of your interest is how big isour circle of we have W E is
that, you know, me and my closefriends, is it me and my tribe,
that could be a biologicaltribe, it could be a tribe of

(35:42):
belief, or religion, orlanguage. I lived in Quebec,
Canada for a number of years.
And, you know, there aredifferent linguistic groups in
Canada that can have significantbumfights and a very different
sense of identity. And thatsense of identity is very deep.
We can grow into a third personperspective, which is ability to

(36:07):
sort of stand back on thoserelationships and see ourselves
as an individual outside a verystrong group affiliations, I
would suggest there in manyparts of the world, they're just
making that transition now. Andit's a it's a, it's a sort of a
challenging one. And thirdperson, fourth person

(36:30):
perspective, I think that voiceinside of my head was me coming
into fourth person perspective,where I'm more able to
understand interior parts. Inorganizations, a fourth person
perspective is going beyond, youknow, what do I want to create
in the next three to five yearsgoing beyond getting a team

(36:50):
behind me, which included, youknow, tech folks and investors
and whoever else? To what arethe different contexts I have to
navigate? How are the differentstakeholders feeding into this?
And how are their agendasconflicting? getting a sense for
a broader systemic view. So assort of a whole systems, you can

(37:12):
really come online, thatrequires a broader perspective
taking capacity? With whom can Ihave empathy? Who others can I
put myself really put myself intheir shoes? Who do I need to
get feedback from, because theycan see things in me, or the
situation that I literallycannot see. So I need to bring

(37:34):
this fourth person perspectiveonline. So this ability to take
a perspective is, in factdevelopmental. And I guess I
want to stop here, Bill andpause by saying, and they're all
beautiful. And we shouldn'tprivilege any one particular

(37:54):
capacity, you know, a two yearold is equally as beautiful as
an eight year old, they're justdifferent. And we are all sacred
in our own ways. So I don't wanta privilege a certain way of
meaning making over others. Butsometimes the ability to handle

(38:16):
complexity and ambiguity makes adifference.

Bill Duane (38:22):
Right. And, you know, also, if you if you
extrapolate that frame, one ofthe problems that I can fall
into in any developmental pathis the idea that one is better,
or sorry, you know, the fartheralong you are, the more
accomplished you are. Intherefore, when you look back,

(38:44):
and you say, well, I now havecapabilities that I didn't use
to have to look back with asense of, you know, shame or
unhappiness about it. And then,you know, I think the real
subtle harm that can happen andI say this to my coaching
clients, well, the ones whoenjoy a salty coach, is they
say, How's your project ofhating yourself into a better

(39:05):
person coming along? But I thinkit's so when we look at these
developmental stages as what'swhat's ahead of us is a lack
verses I loved the way that youput it is, it's just more in
different tools in the tool setand sometimes these other
perspectives are, you know, thethe ones that may have come

(39:27):
online earlier are really usefulin certain contexts and to not
have this idea that more isbetter or some method of
attainment is is above someother ones, but the way you put
it is was much more beautiful.

Meg Salter (39:43):
Well, you know, there's that's a really good
point bill is just a couple ofthings to build off there. One
is, you know, is the complexityof our perception and meeting
meeting adequate for the task.
Complexity on the side doesn'tmatch complexity on the outside.
And one can argue that thedemands of the world are getting

(40:06):
more complex, more complicated.
And so we need to enhance ourbandwidth capacity to meet
those. Having said that, Ipersonally am involved with
conservation efforts in Canada.
And one of the big things hereis indigenous lead conservation.
Because they know the land. Andthey are hoping to be in right

(40:28):
relationship with the land, andall the sentient beings on the
land. So they're all important.

Bill Duane (40:39):
Right? And I think, you know, going back to one of
the first things you said aboutmeaning making, and then meaning
making the antecedent to thatbeing given perception. You
know, I think one of the thingsthat's toughest about
innovation, and the previouspodcast with Roxy Manning covers
this quite specifically of that,it needs to accommodate

(41:05):
divergent points of view andeven divergent truths. So from a
perception standpoint, themethod of perceiving the thing
is radically different. Youknow, and, you know, normatively
we say, objective science, youknow, those tools are the
correct ones for studyingecologies or systems in that. So

(41:29):
when somebody has a differentmethod of perception, and then
sensemaking, it becomes very,very interesting to say, how
might these two be beharmonized, particularly when
one one or both sides has afirst principle of this method
is the only correct one ofproceeds,

Meg Salter (41:48):
right, which is in itself a relatively narrow view,
you know, that tends to comefrom, you know, certain meeting
making capacity, which is, youneed, it's almost like a camera
lens. If I could use that as ametaphor, Bill, it's like, you
need a really wide lens, to beable to take in all the
different frames, cues, and thecapacity to detect different

(42:17):
meaning making modes, theemotional capacity to be with
dissonance, because you're notused to this yet. The capacity
to not need to resolveambiguity, or paradox in two
seconds, meant to live with itfor days and weeks and months.

(42:41):
And one of the things that'shappening now is that people are
coming together from all overthe world, and whether it's
gender or ethnicity, orlanguage, or history has
historicity, we've got all thesepoints of view perspectives
clashing in the same room. Andthere's a possibility for that

(43:02):
to be very rich, andtransformative. But it's tricky.
possibility for huge conflict,and dissing the other dismissing
the other because you literallycannot see it.

Bill Duane (43:20):
Yeah, you can't see it, or ontologically, you just
say it's any, any informationfrom that source is wrong, and
you bring up an important thingof complexity and ambiguity. My
take on my own instincts tonarrow in that way is to
simplify so that the problemspace, the problem matrix

(43:42):
becomes easier to navigate andcalculate, right, the idea of if
you look at the IDEO, IDEO anddesign thinking models is to
actually invite confusion andcomplexity in the beginning. And
for people like me that came upfrom an engineering standpoint,

(44:03):
that is a condition that isbroken, and begging to be fixed,
whereas you mentioned andcertainly what complexity theory
teaches us is, there's actuallya need to encourage that because
the, the method, the method ofusing solid measurements only
works in relatively staticenvironments. Exactly.

Meg Salter (44:26):
I often use a model that combines first diverge and
converge divergent thinkingfollowed by convergent thinking
in in cycles. Because, you know,you can solve a problem given
certain kinds of constraints,but how do you define those
constraints from problems facedin the first place? What is the
relevant problem to solve? Andthat's one of the things that

(44:49):
happens in large organizationsis that you become pretty good
at solving narrow, relativelynarrow, but technically
complicated problem spaces. Andthat you have to go beyond that.
to say which which of theproblems we should even be
looking at.

Bill Duane (45:03):
Right? Or it has the problem change. The classic
thing in a large organization,you know, in the military, it's
called, like fighting the lastwar is you have an entire system
of organization processpolicies, and maybe most
important incentives to keep ondoing it the way that you have
been. And to actually divergefrom that necessarily means to

(45:27):
have your numbers go down andpossibly go up in an area that's
not even being measured, ormaybe people think it's
bullshit, or antagonists. That's

Meg Salter (45:36):
right. Yeah, they have a finely tuned machine for
a situation that's no longerrelevant.
Yeah, I think that's, that'sespecially especially true now.
You know, just thinking about,you know, I do a fair amount of
work in in the AI space. And Ireally, you know, I joined

(45:57):
Google in 2005. And I reallythought the velocity of things
was moving quite fast, quitefast, then the pace at which
they're moving now is really,really stunning. I mean, even as
a as a Gen X, or who came up inmy adult life with the internet,
it's pretty clear that theinternet of today, the Internet

(46:17):
of Google's circa 2008, is goingto seem it's already starting to
seem quaint. And what's comingout is, is something, you know,
unknown. So we're definitelygetting more into this. This
ambiguous space. And I think, Ithink part of the reason why I
love your work so much, is, youknow, right now, I'm really

(46:42):
struck by just a sense ofmastery, you know, the way that
you tie very different like eachone of the domains that you have
expertise in, people spend theirwhole life developing a deep
expertise in it. Mindfulness,business systems and sort of the
MBA stuff, the developmentaltheory, and then there's the

(47:05):
whole organizational part abouthow organizations develop in
this, and then the coaching parton top of that, which is another
so what is, he got a lot goingon, and I'm here for it, and I'm
grateful for it. And I would beremiss, you know, I know, a lot
of people are probably thinkinglike, well, how can I get some

(47:26):
of my eggs wisdom? And theanswer is, via a book called
Mind your life. And if youhappen to be in China, it was
just released in May I say,brilliantly translated by one
yen Chen. So with this book,it's actually it's a, it's a,
it's a how to about inparticular focus on the

(47:46):
mindfulness but informed bythese other areas. So one is I
would encourage everybody go outand get a copy of that book. But
also, you know, obviously, stepone, by the book, but in
addition to that, for peoplethat are listening to us and
say, like, I would really loveto examine my own life and the

(48:07):
efforts that I'm trying to do inthe world through these rich
lenses, maybe with working witha coach. In addition to buying
the book, how should people goabout working with a coach
finding a coach? How do you findone that's, that works for you
that is smart, and then maybecombining that with other

(48:28):
modalities like meditation, ortherapy or even psychedelic
stuff? How would you what areyour best practices on that? I
am not joking. It's said inSilicon Valley executive
coaching combined withpsilocybin is is is very much up
and coming thing now.
That speaks to my youth.
Coaching is a very broad fieldis not regulated. I happen to

(48:55):
think that qualification andexperience makes a difference as
does personal chemistry.
Certainly, when I'm beinginterviewed in the sort of
organizational sector, somebodywill be given a choice of, you
know, here's a two or threecoaches and go pick the one you

(49:15):
like, because chemistry is alsoreally important. You want to
feel that the person kind ofgets your world but you also
want somebody who's not going toparrot back what you want to
hear. It's can be helpful tothink about why am I here? What

(49:42):
do I want out of coaching, butoften people don't have that
they just have this incoherentsense of unease. Something's not
working anymore, and I can'teven put my finger on it.
Sometimes naming what it isthat's not working, naming the
old way of being for example, Itcan be very illuminating. So,

(50:05):
International Coach Federationhas a huge list of people.
That's one source. There arelocal organizations, that's
another source. Try and figureout what the person's style is
my own style to attach edgy. Itry and operate at the knife's
razor edge of challenge andsupport, which is shifting, you

(50:31):
know, by the minute kind ofthing. Most coaching should be
more than just a pleasant chat,you should walk out with
practices, you should walk outwith homework, you should work
out with something to dodifferently, try x y Zed over
the next little while. So forme, that balance of Ooh, this is

(50:53):
could be interesting. I'm alittle bit nervous. Is, is a
good way to go about it. And ofcourse, on the mindfulness side,
there are many people who when Istarted, it was, you know, the
odd book and people, liveteachers. Most people now start
off with an app, although theretention rates are very poor on

(51:18):
most apps, including even MBSR.
So again, finding out whatsupports you need, you need the
intellectual support, do youneed a community? Do you need a
meditation buddy? Do like tosort of shop around with
different styles for a littlewhile and figure out what suits
you. It can be really helpful tohave a live touch base with a

(51:40):
senior person from time to timebecause it's really easy in
coaching, or mindfulnesstraining, to be delusional and
to kid yourself. Right? To getyourself on how you want,
or oh, this is self care, it'snot that I'm slacking off.

(52:01):
Because I don't want to be withmy own thoughts isn't gonna take
a little nap. It's just selfcare. Yeah. Yeah, as as an
example, just to pull out ofYeah,
yeah, example. There are timesfor that. And then there's times
when that's just plainnarcissism. So.

Bill Duane (52:20):
Yeah. So what is, uh, well, as a way of tying
everything together, you know,we talked about how the world is
changing so rapidly in suchsurprising ways. And there's
been a couple times when I'll goon a quick tangent. I used to

(52:43):
when my office Google office wasdowntown San Francisco, I would
take the tram and I would takeit two steps farther than my
office, which was on on thewater on the bay, and then have
a 25 minute walk to centermyself do some meditation before
walking in the office. And it'ssometimes I would choose an
imaginary person to do the walkwith somebody from history. And

(53:05):
I would explain, and sometimes Iwould do it with myself from an
earlier age. And, you know,fairly recently I was I was
playing that game. And I wasexplaining what the world is
like, and me from 20 years wasjust like, just stop making shit
up and be like, well, flat Earthis really a sincere thing. And

(53:25):
there's lots of people whobelieve in it. Donald Trump is
president and I just wentthrough like some of the ups and
downs, and it's part of yourswing. I just like it seems so
unlikely. We're in a very weird,we're on a very weird tangent A
timeline, it seems,

Meg Salter (53:44):
you know, well, there's a couple things there.
One is, you know, after about,well, even, even when, at a very
young age, it's possible to lookback at your younger self and
say, Oh, my gosh, I havechanged. It's possible. I've
already done it several times.
Now, many of these changes arenormative, you know, you went to

(54:05):
elementary school, you went tohigh school, maybe you went you
got a job or you whatever. Sothey don't seem like that
unusual. But if you look back onyour younger self, and what used
to scare you and delight you,and your present self and what
scares you and delights youyou'll find different things. So
that's, that's a confidencebuilder. That change is normal

(54:26):
and natural and you know, itdoesn't. The big punctuations
probably happen at greaterfrequencies when you're young.
And in areas that are supportedas you know, sort of much later
perspectives are not sociallysupported that much. So that can

(54:46):
be hard or it can be lonely. Theother thing I wanted to do is to
tie in the mindfulness piece tothis.
A phrase I often use is a It hasto do with enhancing your
internal bandwidth. People likeDaniel brown refer to the speed

(55:08):
of mind.
And a lot of folks think thatmindfulness is, you know, you've
got to be calm and quiet andsitting by yourself and you slow
down. And so if I'm a busyperson, why the heck would I
want to slow down? I am rewardedfor being productive and busy.

(55:30):
But in fact, as you developthese attentional skills that
mindfulness does, you'reactually developing. It's almost
like your internal processing isspeeding up. So that what you're
observing seems like it'sclearer, more spacious, more

(55:52):
sharply focused on and so thatthe, the bandwidth I'm using
that term as a metaphor of yourinternal capacity matches the
bandwidth of what's being askedof you. So let's give an example

(56:13):
of somebody who's, I don't knowmaking a pitch, shall we say,
does that sound reasonable?
Sure. And they walk in andinitially think they just have
to master the material and makesure the PowerPoints don't look
too horrible. Now add in, in theability to monitor your own

(56:34):
internal energy, the negativeself talk, the emotions flowing
through the body, simultaneouslylooking at different people in
the room? And how are theyreading it? Reading that kind of
energy, looking at the pacing,you get a really sharp question,
taking that in fully rather thanbeing automatically defensive.

(56:57):
Understanding that differentkinds of people in the room will
require different kinds ofresponses, because they coming
from different contexts havedifferent interests. And to do
that, with militant grace andease, that takes the ability to
pop in and out in and out veryagile, very agile, emotionally,

(57:18):
cognitively interpersonally,energetically, very agile, and
you sort of have to have thatkind of capacity to for that
internal agility to match thecomplexity of what, what's in
the room in front of you.

Bill Duane (57:37):
Yeah, yeah. And I would add, as part of that
internal agility is also theregulation to deal with some of
the dissonance between thosetwo, you know, that that, that
they, you know, either theremight be some emotion directed
at you, if you get a pepperyquestion. Or even that little,
that little free zone of selfdoubt, that can come up in the

(58:01):
in the middle of things, orsomeone presenting a divergent
point of view that you wishwasn't true. And then the other
thing is, you might be familiarwith the Johari. Window, Sam,
that blew my mind. So the JohariWindow, correct me if I'm
getting this wrong, is there'sthings about you that you know,

(58:24):
and others don't your secrets.
There's things that you know,about you and others do, this is
sort of what you're transparentand open about. And there are
things that other people areaware of you that you have no
idea like this. And I think tofind out about that aspect of
the Johari Window is that onethat can be the hardest to

(58:48):
stomach because I think a lot oftimes you mentioned before,
sometimes it's the shadow orsomething where we have
developed I mean, going back towhen you had this, this literal
voice of wisdom pointing youtowards wholesomeness during a
time of great difficulty, I'dsay the shadow of that is the

(59:11):
thing that conceals aspects ofyour own experience from you
because you're not ready for it.
Or it or there's there's a fearthat you're not ready for it.

Meg Salter (59:22):
Yeah. So the ability to take in feedback itself can
develop initially, well, I'm theexpert, I don't need feedback.
Who you to tell me and then I'lltake feedback as long as we can
agree we're, you know, it's allabout going to this particular
goal. And if you know, the 10 isbig enough, but we're going to
this particular goal, and thenfeedback because I know that you

(59:46):
bill can see things that I don'tand I need to know that that's
that part of the Johari Windowyou were talking about it to the
ability to sort of see thesemultiple feedback loops that
occur in a very complex system.
Given how each one reinforcesthe other, and then beyond that,
just stepping into a broad fieldof awareness, which allows you
to take in all these differentpieces of feedback and hold them

(01:00:09):
with truth, but also with alight touch. Because you know
that the feedback is alsorepresenting who it comes from,
as well as who is pointedtowards. So, so just all of
these things grow up, we alwaysgrow up, I think it's a great
relief, actuallya great relief. And it's really

(01:00:32):
funny to me, and one of my waysof holding, especially ideas
around shadow is it's, it'sreally funny, I think of how
many friends of mine have gonethrough the very intense
experience of like coming out asqueer in one way or another. And
it's building up and it's ontheir mind, and they tell their
best friend, I'm gay, andthey're like, What, da, we're
all waiting for you to be ableto catch up to everybody else.

(01:00:57):
And this idea that, you know, alot of times the things we're
protecting, maybe maybe don'tneed protection, that which is
not to minimize the the realharm that that people go
through. But it can be fun to dosome small, safe experiments
around this.

(01:01:17):
And you can ask a trustedfriend, or a colleague at work
to say, you know, when I do XYZ,could you talk to me about it
afterwards. Or, you know, inthis particular meeting, I want
to do blah, blah, let me knowhow I did. Or in the meeting,
I'm desperately going to needhand signals, if I do X, right.
So me is better, or somethinglike. So the ability to seek

(01:01:41):
feedback, most standard,coaching programs started off
with some kind of feedback, youdon't need to do, you know, a
paid instrument to getreasonable feedback, but you do
need to have an enquiring mind,and be willing to sit with some
discomfort. So from somebody youtrust in that regard.

Bill Duane (01:02:05):
So what's interesting, then is that, you
know, this implies then thispositive feedback loop between
having a certain amount oftrust, stepping into it with
vulnerability to see if you haveany blind spots, and I think
there's a tenderness of askingsomeone you trust to help you
with your blind spot that thenup levels, the sense of trust,

(01:02:28):
and then and then safety. Andthen I think, you know, stepping
out of the individual realm intothe org realm, the more that
people are doing this with eachother, this this delicate dance
of vulnerability, and trust, andhelping each other uplevel and
CO regulation. This is the pointwhen it goes from being a bunch

(01:02:49):
of individuals trying to getbetter individuals into a group
of people doing their thing,because even though there might
not be an objective, and a keyresult or KPI around trust, and
blind spots and shadows, a teamthat has a very functional way

(01:03:10):
of accommodating those, youknow, I think that builds that
construct of psychologicalsafety that the Google research
showed was the number oneseparator between extremely high
performing teams and highperforming.

Meg Salter (01:03:24):
Absolutely. And, and, again, to your point about
trust, and how do we recognizeit? And what did we do to enact
it? You know, a can start offwith, you know, I trust your
code. I trust you, technically,I trust you to do a good job.
And that's one baseline.
Whatever your job is, I trustyou to be accurate and reliable

(01:03:48):
in that, which is already nomean feat, right? Yeah,

Bill Duane (01:03:53):
yeah.

Meg Salter (01:03:55):
Too to what else?
Can you trust somebody withinterpersonally or relationally.
Or contextually, you know, Ineed to find out when certain
customers or certain people aredoing X, Y, Zed. So, you know,
we can start off. The thingabout coaching is that, you
know, it's like a kid riding abicycle, you need to meet people

(01:04:18):
where they're at. And you canstart off with something that
seems fairly straightforward.
And increase that size of thatwindow incrementally in ways
that are feeling comfortable foryou and comfortable for the
other people until it justbecomes a normal habit. You ask
for feedback and certain kindsof things. So vulnerability can

(01:04:41):
feel scary. And this is aboutscaling. Right? So you can start
small and build thatrelationship of trust.

Bill Duane (01:04:51):
I think that and that's what I liked the
normalization of the fact thatthis is difficult and awkward.
It's that forming, stormingnorming performing remembering
that you know that gettinggetting real is or getting
complicated or encounteringparadox. I think when you're in
environments of emergence andgreat change, you actually need

(01:05:14):
to get to those really quicklybecause to route a path that
routes around, those, thosediscomforting feelings of all of
we just talked about, of shadowof not knowing of what worked
for you in the past is no longerworking for you like without
some method of squaring to thatwith love and compassion. But so

(01:05:36):
I'm sort of I'm sort of givingyou my version of the answer.
But what would you recommend asa general thing for people, but
how do we? How do wecognitively? How do we
emotionally prepare ourselvesfor the difficulty of change and
growth?

Meg Salter (01:05:56):
I think one of the key things that has helped me
and many people I've workedwith, is to understand that
confusions are normal. And theyare not a sign of failure. I
mean, when you're learningsomething, and you're confused
about it, you don't know yourshit yet. And we can take that
into going forward. But aconfusion can also be a sign

(01:06:22):
that a certain kind of growth isoccurring. And this is a normal
effect that happens. And often,when we feel a confusion, our
reaction to it is to push itaway. Because we interpret that

(01:06:44):
as something's going wrong. Butif we interpret that as oh,
maybe something's going right, Ijust have to figure out what it
is and who can help me withthis.

Bill Duane (01:06:55):
Right? where something is flexible in a
supple, in a way where it wasimmovable? Yeah,

Meg Salter (01:07:01):
yeah. So it's that I'm moving to one of the two
tools that I can, can be taughtin mindfulness, for example, is
how to turn towards a source ofdiscomfort, rather than turn
away. And an automatic reactionvery often is to turn away from
the source of discomfort becauseit's uncomfortable.

Bill Duane (01:07:24):
basic survival out there basic survival, you know,
supersize it, if it'suncomfortable, flee it, or numb.

Meg Salter (01:07:30):
Yeah, you know, but you know, whether it's relaxing
into childbirth, to facing offthe huge animal that's about to
charge you and you got a littlepuny stick on a spear, we have
learned how to face towards thedifficulties. And that takes
interior skills, it takessupport from around you. And

(01:07:52):
doing that in ways that aremanageable, like maybe five
minutes to start. But that, youknow, whether it's called a
growth mindset, or an openmindset, it's counterintuitive.
radically, radically counters,Why

Bill Duane (01:08:09):
think we need we need active active skills to
engage it. And then at theindividual level, and then at
the group level, we need peoplewe trust to co regulate to
provide, as you were sayingbefore, different points of view
different, different viewpoints.
And then to create that circleof trust, combined with third

(01:08:31):
party, fourth party views thatallow us to, not to really map
out and triangulate an interiorand an exterior landscape that
shifting sometimes more,sometimes less.

Meg Salter (01:08:46):
And, you know, with some of that practice, you
become used to the fact Oh,yeah, I know how to navigate
this stuff. I did one of thesefive, eight years ago. And I'm
here, this one's different. ButI survived the last one, you
know, people in, you know, savetech sector and high level

(01:09:07):
professionals who, you know, goback and look back to graduating
from, you know, perhaps highschool into university, and all
of a sudden, you're a C student,you thought you were, you know,
wonderful. And then learningthat there are different kinds
of intelligences. And in theorganizational workplace, I
mean, the cognitive is the priceof entry, it gets you in the

(01:09:28):
door. And beyond that, youhaven't been trained, likely.

Bill Duane (01:09:35):
So one, one might say that this sort of training
at the individual and grouplevel of oh, we could call it
maybe the heart of innovation,

Meg Salter (01:09:42):
we could call it the heart and soul of innovation.
Absolutely. And they're all tiedtogether, aren't they? You know,
we might lead with the brain. Insome sectors and other sectors
not so much you might lead withthe body. Or you might lead with
sort of people type intuition,sales roles are like that. So we
lead Is no one part of us, butit's kind of like a three legged

(01:10:06):
bar stool. You need all threelegs.
Right? That sounds like a prettyperfect spot to land on. Meg,
thank you so much for like Isaid, the term that comes to
mind is mastery in so manydomains and the ability to weave
them together. I'm very gratefulthat you've taken your time to
share it with me and the folkswho are listening. It's

(01:10:26):
been a pleasure Bell. It'salways a delight to talk with
you and hello to your listeners.