June 16, 2024 • 23 mins
Photography is an art. And if you think about it, film and television, is a series of shots in movement. I was honored to chat with Dan Winters, a legend in the world of professional photography who crafts narratives with the click of his shutter.
Winters has photographed public figures ranging from the Dalai Lama to President Barack Obama, Hollywood celebrities from Leonardo DiCaprio to Helen Mirren, and artistic luminaries from Jeff Koons to William Christenberry. In our heartfelt conversation, Dan imparts his artistic philosophy, detailing the intricacies of incorporating objects into his portraits to tell richer stories. He takes us behind the scenes of his meticulously planned shoots, including the awe-inspiring NASA launches, and reflects on his personal connections to his subjects, from shipyards to the vast expanse of space.
In the new Nat Geo Series "Photographer" Dan Winters episode, “Life is Once. Forever.,” has premiered at South by Southwest on March 11 and is available to stream on Disney Plus and Hulu.
Because I love getting to the "heart" of the arts, Dan opens up about the peaks and valleys of his journey with bipolar disorder. He talks candidly about the choice to remain anchored in the present, the pursuit of stability, and the indispensable role of his support network. Our exchange is not just about the images captured but the life lived behind the camera—a tale of art, ambition, and the courage to face one's own vulnerabilities.
All about Dan's work
https://danwintersphoto.com/BIOGRAPHY
See the trailer
https://youtu.be/KSCjIRdu1ZY?si=eICoO5zkKCmVf3Ww
About your Host- Alexia Melocchi
Buy My Book - An Insiders Secret: Mastering the Hollywood Path
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to the heart of show business.
I am your host, alexia Melocchi.
I believe in great storytellingand that every successful
artist has a deep desire toexpress something from the heart
to create a ripple effect inour society.
Emotion and entertainment areclosely tied together.
Emotion and entertainment areclosely tied together.
My guests and I want to giveyou insider access to how the
(00:28):
film, television and musicindustry works.
We will cover dreams come true,the road less traveled journey
beginnings and a lot of insightand inspiration in between.
I am a successful film andtelevision entrepreneur who came
to America as a teenager topursue my show business dreams.
Are you ready for someunfiltered real talk with
(00:50):
entertainment visionaries fromall over the world?
Then let's roll.
Sound and action.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Welcome to the heart of show business.
I have such an amazing guestwith me who is also being
featured in the magazine, theEden Magazine, because there is
a whole episode dedicated to himin this amazing Nat Geo series
called Photographer, and I justwanted to introduce you here to
(01:23):
Dan Winters.
Let me tell you first that, aswe know, in show business it's
called the moving image, right,so it all starts with the image.
So what a perfect moment for meto interview here the master of
images.
Dan Winters is an award-winningphotographer.
(01:43):
He has won over 100 awards.
He has been hailed and given anaward as an icon of photography
by Kodak.
He's famous for havingphotographed the NASA holograms.
Wonderful marriage with hiswife, catherine, who's also his
(02:03):
manager and his sidekick I liketo call.
And in this incredible episodethat I just watched, we follow a
little bit about Dan's process,of how he chooses what he wants
to photograph, as well as howhe grapples with the dynamics of
his own family while choosingthis type of career, which must
(02:25):
be very intense.
Even though it doesn't looklike it, I'm sure it is.
So, dan, welcome to my show.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Thank you, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
It's so wonderful to have you.
First of all, one of the thingsthat I was really fascinated
about about is that you lovetaking pictures and shooting
objects, and I have seen thateven in the photos that you've
done with celebrities and youphotograph quite a few you
(02:55):
always try to blend in theobject matter, the object factor
.
Could you hold on one second?
I'm sorry, sorry, there is holdon one second, so anyway, we
are redoing this question.
You love to shoot thingsinstead of people, and whenever
(03:18):
you're shooting people includingmany hollywood celebrities that
you have immortalized you havealways added the object element
to the photography.
Why do you do that?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Well, I think it kind of depends on the situation,
and if the object is going tohelp tell the story, then I'll
work that into the picture.
Oftentimes we'll build setsthat represent environments so
that we put the person into aworld that we create, rather
than just photograph themagainst a neutral background,
(03:54):
which I also do.
So it kind of depends.
I do like objects, I do likephotographing objects.
I mean, ultimately, asphotographers, we are really
dependent on something orsomeone to point our camera at,
like, we're not like painters.
We can't just take a blankcanvas and create a painting,
(04:16):
right, we need something thatreflects light to point our
camera at in order to likerealize our craft.
So, um, but as far as likeobjects go, you know, I mean I
can think of some portraits thatI've done that rely on propping
to help to tell the story.
I did a portrait of benedictcumberbatch uh, that comes to
(04:37):
mind.
Um, for the film, uh, theimitation game, and the idea was
to like create the assignmentfrom the magazine it's for time
magazine was to create uh kindof a world that felt like the
world alan turing would live in,and uh, so we kind of created
that world and then we shotstuff, just neutral background
(04:59):
as well of him.
So, um, but yeah, I mean you.
Ultimately it comes from a needto have something to document.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah.
So I see that you obviously orprobably I'm getting obviously
my own point of view you'retrying to blend the symbolism of
the object together with thehuman factor, and what I've
noticed in your episode on thenat geo is that obviously you
know, the two biggest uhhighlights of objects is
(05:33):
obviously shipyards, which istied to your own childhood uh
one that's one of them and thenalso your fascination with uh,
space and uh, because when yougrow up, you grew up seeing Life
magazine and obviously havingthe incredible honor of shooting
(05:53):
anything that has to do withNASA.
Do you pick the things that youwant to choose, that you want
to shoot in the moment, say that, or when there is an assignment
, or do you build a story behindit before you go and shoot a
certain angle or shoot us undera certain light, whatever the
(06:15):
subject is?
Speaker 3 (06:18):
well, um, if I'm working on a story, usually what
I do is plan as much as I can,because, you know, these trips
are expensive.
So if I'm going to go toKennedy to cover a launch, maybe
I'll try to shoot a few otherthings that are a part of the
story while I'm down there.
But typically if it's amulti-image story that I'm
(06:40):
working on, planning is a hugepart of it.
You know, planning, uh sort ofplanning, uh getting access, uh,
you know, um, nasa has only alimit.
They have a limited amount ofpeople that can handle press
requests, so usually a setupshoots far in advance.
Uh, at kennedy, uh, there arefewer people johnson space
(07:05):
center here in houston, theyhave, uh, a really good staff of
people that I that I kind ofcommunicate with regularly that
keep me, uh notified as towhat's going on so I can make
plans to come down there.
So that would be for like aspace type scenario or, you know
, like a aerospace scenario, andthen for like a single image or
(07:32):
a multi-image, like portraitassignment.
You know, typically what I'll dois get the assignment.
There's a conversation aboutwhether or not it's a concept or
whether it's more just aboutthe person.
It's a concept or whether it'smore just about the person.
Oftentimes, even if it's just aportrait about the person or a
story that just doesn't requirecontext, I'll still make a
(07:53):
little environment to shoot inlike a set, so that we can shoot
in a place rather than, youknow, just in a limbo background
which I have no problem withlimbo backgrounds, I've shot in
lots of them but I kind of likethe idea of creating something
that feels like a world thatthat person's in and a world
that we maybe don't know, in, aworld Maybe we want, we want to
(08:14):
know more about as viewers.
You know, um, I think thatthat's a.
It's a kind of interesting wayto frame, uh, to frame, pun
intended, but I think, uh, Ithink creating a place that
causes intrigue, uh, is kind ofa fun, uh, a fun place to.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
To start, yeah, yeah, no, totally.
And I have to say, speaking ofimmortalizing people, what
really really moved me was themoment where you shared with
your son the pictures that youhad taken of him and the emotion
that it evoked in him and theconversation that you had about
(08:53):
him where you said, basically,that was your way of showing
love.
Where you said, basically, thatwas your way of showing love,
and though he felt that maybeyou were not as present as he
wanted you to be because of, youknow, the profession that you
chose, all the pictures that youtook of him were telling a
story of how he was growing up.
Was there a particular reasonwhy you chose primarily black
(09:13):
and white for those photosversus, say, color?
Speaker 3 (09:21):
I've always had an affinity for black and white for
those photos versus, say, color, um, I've always had an
affinity for black and white.
Uh, it goes back to theearliest days of photography for
me, uh, the first exposure Ihad to uh to the craft of
photography was, uh, thedarkroom when I was nine years
old.
A friend of mine's dad was aamateur photographer and he had
a dark room at his house and Iremember he, me and my friend
(09:41):
went in there and watched him uhwork up a print and that was
just an amazing moment for meand, uh, I've always loved
working in the dark room.
You know, there's a magic to it, um, there's a magic to sort of
like willing the thing intoexistence, you know, through
chemistry and light.
And I just really love shootingblack and white.
(10:06):
It's funny, it never, it nevereven occurred to me to shoot it
in anything other than black andwhite, like ever.
I think black and white does akind of a wonderful, it does a
wonderful thing.
It, it takes, it takes thescene completely uh away from
reality.
You know, it's like it's, it'suh, it's uh, it just becomes
(10:29):
about tone and about value and,um, color's such a strong force,
uh, for us that I think it canbe distracting if you want to
get to the essence of what thepicture is about, and so, yeah,
black and white seemed to be theobvious choice.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
That is a wonderful way of thinking about it.
I've always had a fascinationfor black and white myself,
because it makes it a lot harderto tell a story for Black and
White myself, because it makesit a lot harder to tell a story
I feel.
So you tend to become way moreselective rather than just
shooting randomly.
When you're dealing with color,what I find myself, even with
my silly iPhone, when I'm takingphotos, I'm just like snapping
(11:10):
away, seeing.
You know, hopefully somethingwill come out good.
Which brings me to, of course,the changing of technology today
.
And, um, everybody's aphotographer, everybody.
Now, with an iphone, they cando whatever they want.
They have filters, they can do,they can create, they can with
ai, they can take out things.
How how will a photographer asa profession last in today's
(11:37):
landscape when photography hasbecome so accessible and so easy
for most?
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Well, I think what you're talking about is
something that came down a whileago, which was the technical
barrier.
So for many years there was atechnical barrier in photography
, and that is you had to have alevel of knowledge and expertise
from a technical standpoint tomake an image right.
You had to know aboutsensitometry, you had to know
(12:07):
about chemistry, you had to knowabout optics all these things
that you used in order to like,wrestle that image into being.
And with the technology thatexists now the digital
technology it certainly made iteasier to capture an image.
But at the end of the day,that's not what photography is
(12:29):
about.
Right, photography is not aboutcapturing the image.
Photography is about making acompelling, beautifully crafted
photograph, which none of thetechnology gives you that.
And so the artistry oftechnology, the sensibility of
the artist, the voice of theartist, that doesn't come for
(12:51):
free.
Everybody can make a picturethat's in focus and that's
properly exposed.
That's what you get with thetechnology.
You don't get the vision of aphotographer with the technology
.
That has to be earned.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I love what you said because I think it's very much a
parallel with what's happeningin our industry.
Right, everybody thinks thatthey can be a filmmaker, they
can just have an iPhone and makea movie.
However, I don't think you cantell a story just by pointing
out your phone and having abunch of people act or say lines
(13:26):
.
You know there is a reason whythere are great directors like
the Christopher Nolan's of theworld that really Scott and you
know Scorsese.
They have very, very specificvoice and they have a lot of
artistry behind them versus justshooting.
So I love what you said.
That's a great way of showingthe difference between a true
photographer and a photographerwho just says great, I have a
(13:48):
great iPhone, lots of apps, lotsof filters that I can play with
and then I'm going to go andcreate something.
Which brings me also to.
Obviously, you've been very busythroughout your career.
You traveled a lot.
Your wife has been your rock.
It's been very moving towitness her testimony of you and
(14:09):
her marriage to you and hersupport of you in your efforts,
but also in standing by you asyou were navigating the world,
of being bipolar and all of thatand also, you know, being the
link between you and your son.
What made you have a choice atsome point which shows during
(14:34):
the end of the show where youare realizing that life life
real life, not the one that youtake pictures of and family is
actually what you choose tofocus on today?
Speaker 3 (14:50):
Yeah, I mean, I felt like I was for many years, just,
you know, dancing as fast as Icould right to stay relevant, to
stay busy, to support a family,to support a lifestyle, and I'm
grateful for all of that.
There are definitely some stonesthat were left unturned that I
(15:11):
have regrets about, but at theend of the day, I think we, you
know, we're all flawed beingsand we all have struggles, and
our struggles are, can be ourtriumphs if we uh look at them
in the in the right way.
So, um, um, yeah, the bipolarpart of it was, uh, you know, at
(15:35):
one point productive and at onepoint destructive.
You know, like anybody that'sdealt with bipolar disorder,
that's a creative, knows thatthe level of immense creativity
that can be associated with itis unbelievable, you know.
But also, you know, on thedownside of it is, you know, it
(15:56):
can destroy you physically, itcan destroy you emotionally, and
so, you know, I'm grateful thatwe've been able to address that
part of it.
It's a lot nicer to live in amore stable realm, for sure.
Um, so I think in in that way,um, you know, there's there's
(16:22):
sort of a blessing that's comethrough that kind of realization
.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Um, yeah, yeah, I think yeah, I think it's.
It's a choice of being in thepresent Right and and uh, I have
not seen.
I don't know if you've beentaking pictures after the
diagnosis it clearly shows thatyou have, and I do not see any
change in the quality of yourwork or in the power of the
(16:48):
images that you choose.
What I like to say about yourphotography which for me it's
everything is about an emotionalconnection.
Everything is about anemotional connection and what
I've seen in every picture thatI scoured on the internet to try
to find as much of your work asI could.
What I loved about your picturesis that they open a doorway to
(17:10):
my own imagination and my owninterpretation of that picture,
and to me, that's somethingincredibly powerful, because not
many photographers are able toaccomplish that.
They may just do something forthe aesthetics of it or to leave
almost like a legacy of animage that is going to represent
a moment in time, but to beable to choose that image and
(17:33):
then also create an emotionalconnection with the person who's
watching that image, wheretheir imagination can run wild
and start thinking I wonder whyhe chose that shot?
Or like how does that resonatewith me?
That's quite an incredible,accomplished dance.
So I mean, I bow down to you asfar as your artistry and your
(17:53):
talent and therefore my lastquestion to you is what type of
a legacy do you want to leavefor future photographers?
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Well, that's a really good question because you know,
this is a medium that's 150.
So the first photograph wasmade in 1827.
So it's 200-year-old, it's 190years, uh, seven-year-old.
(18:25):
Uh, discipline, uh, coming upon 200 years and, um, you know,
billions of photographs havebeen made, most of them within
the last 10 years, from, if youthink about a 200 year old
discipline, and most of thephotographs that have been made
in that discipline are in a veryshort piece of that time span.
(18:46):
Um, so, legacy is definitelysomething that you know.
I don't think I actively thinkabout, like what my legacy is,
but I do know this.
I do know that I've gone andthis speaks back to the question
about like everybody has aphone, everybody's a
photographer.
I've heard this a million timesand, uh, I'm so not threatened
by it, because, you know, justbecause you have a typewriter
(19:08):
doesn't mean you can write anovel.
You know it's.
It's just silly to think that.
You know everybody's aphotographer and filters and all
that crap are not.
You know, I've designed thosefilters for Apple, a bunch of
those filters, you know, andthey don't mean anything.
You know they're like there'slike artifice.
You know it's just likeartifice on top of something
else.
You know, know, it's just likeartifice on top of something
(19:31):
else.
You know, um but um.
As far as legacy goes, well,and I'll say this, that I've
spent a large part of my careerstudying the history of
photography, studyingphotographers, studying their
motivations, their like triumphsand defeats, uh, understanding
where they shot, when they shot,what tools they used.
So, like having a really bigsort of like database in my head
, very comprehensiveunderstanding of the history of
(19:53):
photography and how photographyhas worked over time, how
storytelling has changed thepeople that like began.
You know, I think about johnthompson in the 1800s
documenting the streets oflondon, uh, stieglitz
documenting the streets of newyork.
Like the progression of thestorytelling aspect of
photography.
How people use photography fornarrative, you know, totally,
(20:14):
completely non-threatened by,like the guy with the iPhone,
even though, having said that, Iuse my iPhone all the time.
So it's a great tool but itdoesn't make photos for you.
Photographers make photos.
You know, you've heard thatthing of like, oh, you must have
a good camera.
I've heard that so many times.
Like, wow, that's a cool photo,you must have a good camera.
It's like the most insulting.
(20:36):
It's like saying like, wow, youknow, you must have a good
piano, you must have a goodguitar.
That was incredible.
You know, it's just liketotally insulting, but I don't't
, I'm not affected by it, itdoesn't insult me really.
I mean, I take it in stride.
It's just because people areignorant as to what actually it
is, like what the disciplineactually means, uh, but as far
(20:57):
as legacy goes, understandingthe whole career or the whole,
um, the whole sort of arc ofphotography, and understanding
who the significant players wereand how they shifted things and
why their work is important andwhy their work took photography
in a different direction, helpsme to sort of like determine
(21:21):
where I fit.
Like, where do I fit inphotography?
How has my work like earned aplace in the history of
photography?
And I think I'm more concernedwith that.
I'm more concerned with, like,are there images that I've made
that are, that are images thatwill, you know, find a place in
the history of photography?
(21:41):
And it's very difficult to dothat.
You know, like I said, it's avery saturated medium.
Um, you know, uh, like I said,billions and billions, possibly
more than billions, to be honestwith you, trillions of images
have been made over the last 200years.
So, as far as legacy goes.
If we can have one or twoimages that speak to the
(22:04):
progression of the medium in arelevant way, then I think I
would be thrilled.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Well, clearly, your photography was impactful enough
to give you a whole episode ona Nat Geo show, so I think
that's that's a testimony of theimpact that you've made in
culture, in society and, andhopefully, for many more
generations to come.
So, dan, it's been wonderfulhaving this conversation with
(22:33):
you.
I hope that there will be anexhibit coming about your work.
That's what I see.
As far as I'm concerned, Iwould love to see an exhibit
with some of your best work.
I think a lot of people wouldshow up for that too, to show
you how valuable and meaningfulyour work has been today, and I
(22:58):
look forward to that day.
And thank you so much forcoming on the show.
For anybody who wants to followDan's work, watch this
incredible series on Nat Geo andalso do Google is your friend
Speaking of technology.
If you're lazy, just Google himand you'll see some incredible
(23:19):
images over and out.
Thank you for coming.
This is the heart of showbusiness.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Thank you for listening to this week's episode
of the Heart of Show Business.
If you enjoyed it, please shareit with a friend.
You can also subscribe, rateand review the show on your
favorite podcast player.
If you have any questions orcomments or feedback for us, you
can reach me directly attheheartofshowbusinesscom.
Welcome to the heart of show business.
I am your host, alexia Melocchi.
I believe in great storytellingand that every successful
artist has a deep desire toexpress something from the heart
to create a ripple effect inour society.
Emotion and entertainment areclosely tied together.
Emotion and entertainment areclosely tied together.
My guests and I want to giveyou insider access to how the
(00:28):
film, television and musicindustry works.
We will cover dreams come true,the road less traveled journey
beginnings and a lot of insightand inspiration in between.
I am a successful film andtelevision entrepreneur who came
to America as a teenager topursue my show business dreams.
Are you ready for someunfiltered real talk with
(00:50):
entertainment visionaries fromall over the world?
Then let's roll.
Sound and action.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Welcome to the heart of show business.
I have such an amazing guestwith me who is also being
featured in the magazine, theEden Magazine, because there is
a whole episode dedicated to himin this amazing Nat Geo series
called Photographer, and I justwanted to introduce you here to
(01:23):
Dan Winters.
Let me tell you first that, aswe know, in show business it's
called the moving image, right,so it all starts with the image.
So what a perfect moment for meto interview here the master of
images.
Dan Winters is an award-winningphotographer.
(01:43):
He has won over 100 awards.
He has been hailed and given anaward as an icon of photography
by Kodak.
He's famous for havingphotographed the NASA holograms.
Wonderful marriage with hiswife, catherine, who's also his
(02:03):
manager and his sidekick I liketo call.
And in this incredible episodethat I just watched, we follow a
little bit about Dan's process,of how he chooses what he wants
to photograph, as well as howhe grapples with the dynamics of
his own family while choosingthis type of career, which must
(02:25):
be very intense.
Even though it doesn't looklike it, I'm sure it is.
So, dan, welcome to my show.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Thank you, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
It's so wonderful to have you.
First of all, one of the thingsthat I was really fascinated
about about is that you lovetaking pictures and shooting
objects, and I have seen thateven in the photos that you've
done with celebrities and youphotograph quite a few you
(02:55):
always try to blend in theobject matter, the object factor
.
Could you hold on one second?
I'm sorry, sorry, there is holdon one second, so anyway, we
are redoing this question.
You love to shoot thingsinstead of people, and whenever
(03:18):
you're shooting people includingmany hollywood celebrities that
you have immortalized you havealways added the object element
to the photography.
Why do you do that?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Well, I think it kind of depends on the situation,
and if the object is going tohelp tell the story, then I'll
work that into the picture.
Oftentimes we'll build setsthat represent environments so
that we put the person into aworld that we create, rather
than just photograph themagainst a neutral background,
(03:54):
which I also do.
So it kind of depends.
I do like objects, I do likephotographing objects.
I mean, ultimately, asphotographers, we are really
dependent on something orsomeone to point our camera at,
like, we're not like painters.
We can't just take a blankcanvas and create a painting,
(04:16):
right, we need something thatreflects light to point our
camera at in order to likerealize our craft.
So, um, but as far as likeobjects go, you know, I mean I
can think of some portraits thatI've done that rely on propping
to help to tell the story.
I did a portrait of benedictcumberbatch uh, that comes to
(04:37):
mind.
Um, for the film, uh, theimitation game, and the idea was
to like create the assignmentfrom the magazine it's for time
magazine was to create uh kindof a world that felt like the
world alan turing would live in,and uh, so we kind of created
that world and then we shotstuff, just neutral background
(04:59):
as well of him.
So, um, but yeah, I mean you.
Ultimately it comes from a needto have something to document.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah.
So I see that you obviously orprobably I'm getting obviously
my own point of view you'retrying to blend the symbolism of
the object together with thehuman factor, and what I've
noticed in your episode on thenat geo is that obviously you
know, the two biggest uhhighlights of objects is
(05:33):
obviously shipyards, which istied to your own childhood uh
one that's one of them and thenalso your fascination with uh,
space and uh, because when yougrow up, you grew up seeing Life
magazine and obviously havingthe incredible honor of shooting
(05:53):
anything that has to do withNASA.
Do you pick the things that youwant to choose, that you want
to shoot in the moment, say that, or when there is an assignment
, or do you build a story behindit before you go and shoot a
certain angle or shoot us undera certain light, whatever the
(06:15):
subject is?
Speaker 3 (06:18):
well, um, if I'm working on a story, usually what
I do is plan as much as I can,because, you know, these trips
are expensive.
So if I'm going to go toKennedy to cover a launch, maybe
I'll try to shoot a few otherthings that are a part of the
story while I'm down there.
But typically if it's amulti-image story that I'm
(06:40):
working on, planning is a hugepart of it.
You know, planning, uh sort ofplanning, uh getting access, uh,
you know, um, nasa has only alimit.
They have a limited amount ofpeople that can handle press
requests, so usually a setupshoots far in advance.
Uh, at kennedy, uh, there arefewer people johnson space
(07:05):
center here in houston, theyhave, uh, a really good staff of
people that I that I kind ofcommunicate with regularly that
keep me, uh notified as towhat's going on so I can make
plans to come down there.
So that would be for like aspace type scenario or, you know
, like a aerospace scenario, andthen for like a single image or
(07:32):
a multi-image, like portraitassignment.
You know, typically what I'll dois get the assignment.
There's a conversation aboutwhether or not it's a concept or
whether it's more just aboutthe person.
It's a concept or whether it'smore just about the person.
Oftentimes, even if it's just aportrait about the person or a
story that just doesn't requirecontext, I'll still make a
(07:53):
little environment to shoot inlike a set, so that we can shoot
in a place rather than, youknow, just in a limbo background
which I have no problem withlimbo backgrounds, I've shot in
lots of them but I kind of likethe idea of creating something
that feels like a world thatthat person's in and a world
that we maybe don't know, in, aworld Maybe we want, we want to
(08:14):
know more about as viewers.
You know, um, I think thatthat's a.
It's a kind of interesting wayto frame, uh, to frame, pun
intended, but I think, uh, Ithink creating a place that
causes intrigue, uh, is kind ofa fun, uh, a fun place to.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
To start, yeah, yeah, no, totally.
And I have to say, speaking ofimmortalizing people, what
really really moved me was themoment where you shared with
your son the pictures that youhad taken of him and the emotion
that it evoked in him and theconversation that you had about
(08:53):
him where you said, basically,that was your way of showing
love.
Where you said, basically, thatwas your way of showing love,
and though he felt that maybeyou were not as present as he
wanted you to be because of, youknow, the profession that you
chose, all the pictures that youtook of him were telling a
story of how he was growing up.
Was there a particular reasonwhy you chose primarily black
(09:13):
and white for those photosversus, say, color?
Speaker 3 (09:21):
I've always had an affinity for black and white for
those photos versus, say, color, um, I've always had an
affinity for black and white.
Uh, it goes back to theearliest days of photography for
me, uh, the first exposure Ihad to uh to the craft of
photography was, uh, thedarkroom when I was nine years
old.
A friend of mine's dad was aamateur photographer and he had
a dark room at his house and Iremember he, me and my friend
(09:41):
went in there and watched him uhwork up a print and that was
just an amazing moment for meand, uh, I've always loved
working in the dark room.
You know, there's a magic to it, um, there's a magic to sort of
like willing the thing intoexistence, you know, through
chemistry and light.
And I just really love shootingblack and white.
(10:06):
It's funny, it never, it nevereven occurred to me to shoot it
in anything other than black andwhite, like ever.
I think black and white does akind of a wonderful, it does a
wonderful thing.
It, it takes, it takes thescene completely uh away from
reality.
You know, it's like it's, it'suh, it's uh, it just becomes
(10:29):
about tone and about value and,um, color's such a strong force,
uh, for us that I think it canbe distracting if you want to
get to the essence of what thepicture is about, and so, yeah,
black and white seemed to be theobvious choice.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
That is a wonderful way of thinking about it.
I've always had a fascinationfor black and white myself,
because it makes it a lot harderto tell a story for Black and
White myself, because it makesit a lot harder to tell a story
I feel.
So you tend to become way moreselective rather than just
shooting randomly.
When you're dealing with color,what I find myself, even with
my silly iPhone, when I'm takingphotos, I'm just like snapping
(11:10):
away, seeing.
You know, hopefully somethingwill come out good.
Which brings me to, of course,the changing of technology today
.
And, um, everybody's aphotographer, everybody.
Now, with an iphone, they cando whatever they want.
They have filters, they can do,they can create, they can with
ai, they can take out things.
How how will a photographer asa profession last in today's
(11:37):
landscape when photography hasbecome so accessible and so easy
for most?
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Well, I think what you're talking about is
something that came down a whileago, which was the technical
barrier.
So for many years there was atechnical barrier in photography
, and that is you had to have alevel of knowledge and expertise
from a technical standpoint tomake an image right.
You had to know aboutsensitometry, you had to know
(12:07):
about chemistry, you had to knowabout optics all these things
that you used in order to like,wrestle that image into being.
And with the technology thatexists now the digital
technology it certainly made iteasier to capture an image.
But at the end of the day,that's not what photography is
(12:29):
about.
Right, photography is not aboutcapturing the image.
Photography is about making acompelling, beautifully crafted
photograph, which none of thetechnology gives you that.
And so the artistry oftechnology, the sensibility of
the artist, the voice of theartist, that doesn't come for
(12:51):
free.
Everybody can make a picturethat's in focus and that's
properly exposed.
That's what you get with thetechnology.
You don't get the vision of aphotographer with the technology
.
That has to be earned.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I love what you said because I think it's very much a
parallel with what's happeningin our industry.
Right, everybody thinks thatthey can be a filmmaker, they
can just have an iPhone and makea movie.
However, I don't think you cantell a story just by pointing
out your phone and having abunch of people act or say lines
(13:26):
.
You know there is a reason whythere are great directors like
the Christopher Nolan's of theworld that really Scott and you
know Scorsese.
They have very, very specificvoice and they have a lot of
artistry behind them versus justshooting.
So I love what you said.
That's a great way of showingthe difference between a true
photographer and a photographerwho just says great, I have a
(13:48):
great iPhone, lots of apps, lotsof filters that I can play with
and then I'm going to go andcreate something.
Which brings me also to.
Obviously, you've been very busythroughout your career.
You traveled a lot.
Your wife has been your rock.
It's been very moving towitness her testimony of you and
(14:09):
her marriage to you and hersupport of you in your efforts,
but also in standing by you asyou were navigating the world,
of being bipolar and all of thatand also, you know, being the
link between you and your son.
What made you have a choice atsome point which shows during
(14:34):
the end of the show where youare realizing that life life
real life, not the one that youtake pictures of and family is
actually what you choose tofocus on today?
Speaker 3 (14:50):
Yeah, I mean, I felt like I was for many years, just,
you know, dancing as fast as Icould right to stay relevant, to
stay busy, to support a family,to support a lifestyle, and I'm
grateful for all of that.
There are definitely some stonesthat were left unturned that I
(15:11):
have regrets about, but at theend of the day, I think we, you
know, we're all flawed beingsand we all have struggles, and
our struggles are, can be ourtriumphs if we uh look at them
in the in the right way.
So, um, um, yeah, the bipolarpart of it was, uh, you know, at
(15:35):
one point productive and at onepoint destructive.
You know, like anybody that'sdealt with bipolar disorder,
that's a creative, knows thatthe level of immense creativity
that can be associated with itis unbelievable, you know.
But also, you know, on thedownside of it is, you know, it
(15:56):
can destroy you physically, itcan destroy you emotionally, and
so, you know, I'm grateful thatwe've been able to address that
part of it.
It's a lot nicer to live in amore stable realm, for sure.
Um, so I think in in that way,um, you know, there's there's
(16:22):
sort of a blessing that's comethrough that kind of realization
.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Um, yeah, yeah, I think yeah, I think it's.
It's a choice of being in thepresent Right and and uh, I have
not seen.
I don't know if you've beentaking pictures after the
diagnosis it clearly shows thatyou have, and I do not see any
change in the quality of yourwork or in the power of the
(16:48):
images that you choose.
What I like to say about yourphotography which for me it's
everything is about an emotionalconnection.
Everything is about anemotional connection and what
I've seen in every picture thatI scoured on the internet to try
to find as much of your work asI could.
What I loved about your picturesis that they open a doorway to
(17:10):
my own imagination and my owninterpretation of that picture,
and to me, that's somethingincredibly powerful, because not
many photographers are able toaccomplish that.
They may just do something forthe aesthetics of it or to leave
almost like a legacy of animage that is going to represent
a moment in time, but to beable to choose that image and
(17:33):
then also create an emotionalconnection with the person who's
watching that image, wheretheir imagination can run wild
and start thinking I wonder whyhe chose that shot?
Or like how does that resonatewith me?
That's quite an incredible,accomplished dance.
So I mean, I bow down to you asfar as your artistry and your
(17:53):
talent and therefore my lastquestion to you is what type of
a legacy do you want to leavefor future photographers?
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Well, that's a really good question because you know,
this is a medium that's 150.
So the first photograph wasmade in 1827.
So it's 200-year-old, it's 190years, uh, seven-year-old.
(18:25):
Uh, discipline, uh, coming upon 200 years and, um, you know,
billions of photographs havebeen made, most of them within
the last 10 years, from, if youthink about a 200 year old
discipline, and most of thephotographs that have been made
in that discipline are in a veryshort piece of that time span.
(18:46):
Um, so, legacy is definitelysomething that you know.
I don't think I actively thinkabout, like what my legacy is,
but I do know this.
I do know that I've gone andthis speaks back to the question
about like everybody has aphone, everybody's a
photographer.
I've heard this a million timesand, uh, I'm so not threatened
by it, because, you know, justbecause you have a typewriter
(19:08):
doesn't mean you can write anovel.
You know it's.
It's just silly to think that.
You know everybody's aphotographer and filters and all
that crap are not.
You know, I've designed thosefilters for Apple, a bunch of
those filters, you know, andthey don't mean anything.
You know they're like there'slike artifice.
You know it's just likeartifice on top of something
else.
You know, know, it's just likeartifice on top of something
(19:31):
else.
You know, um but um.
As far as legacy goes, well,and I'll say this, that I've
spent a large part of my careerstudying the history of
photography, studyingphotographers, studying their
motivations, their like triumphsand defeats, uh, understanding
where they shot, when they shot,what tools they used.
So, like having a really bigsort of like database in my head
, very comprehensiveunderstanding of the history of
(19:53):
photography and how photographyhas worked over time, how
storytelling has changed thepeople that like began.
You know, I think about johnthompson in the 1800s
documenting the streets oflondon, uh, stieglitz
documenting the streets of newyork.
Like the progression of thestorytelling aspect of
photography.
How people use photography fornarrative, you know, totally,
(20:14):
completely non-threatened by,like the guy with the iPhone,
even though, having said that, Iuse my iPhone all the time.
So it's a great tool but itdoesn't make photos for you.
Photographers make photos.
You know, you've heard thatthing of like, oh, you must have
a good camera.
I've heard that so many times.
Like, wow, that's a cool photo,you must have a good camera.
It's like the most insulting.
(20:36):
It's like saying like, wow, youknow, you must have a good
piano, you must have a goodguitar.
That was incredible.
You know, it's just liketotally insulting, but I don't't
, I'm not affected by it, itdoesn't insult me really.
I mean, I take it in stride.
It's just because people areignorant as to what actually it
is, like what the disciplineactually means, uh, but as far
(20:57):
as legacy goes, understandingthe whole career or the whole,
um, the whole sort of arc ofphotography, and understanding
who the significant players wereand how they shifted things and
why their work is important andwhy their work took photography
in a different direction, helpsme to sort of like determine
(21:21):
where I fit.
Like, where do I fit inphotography?
How has my work like earned aplace in the history of
photography?
And I think I'm more concernedwith that.
I'm more concerned with, like,are there images that I've made
that are, that are images thatwill, you know, find a place in
the history of photography?
(21:41):
And it's very difficult to dothat.
You know, like I said, it's avery saturated medium.
Um, you know, uh, like I said,billions and billions, possibly
more than billions, to be honestwith you, trillions of images
have been made over the last 200years.
So, as far as legacy goes.
If we can have one or twoimages that speak to the
(22:04):
progression of the medium in arelevant way, then I think I
would be thrilled.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Well, clearly, your photography was impactful enough
to give you a whole episode ona Nat Geo show, so I think
that's that's a testimony of theimpact that you've made in
culture, in society and, andhopefully, for many more
generations to come.
So, dan, it's been wonderfulhaving this conversation with
(22:33):
you.
I hope that there will be anexhibit coming about your work.
That's what I see.
As far as I'm concerned, Iwould love to see an exhibit
with some of your best work.
I think a lot of people wouldshow up for that too, to show
you how valuable and meaningfulyour work has been today, and I
(22:58):
look forward to that day.
And thank you so much forcoming on the show.
For anybody who wants to followDan's work, watch this
incredible series on Nat Geo andalso do Google is your friend
Speaking of technology.
If you're lazy, just Google himand you'll see some incredible
(23:19):
images over and out.
Thank you for coming.
This is the heart of showbusiness.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Thank you for listening to this week's episode
of the Heart of Show Business.
If you enjoyed it, please shareit with a friend.
You can also subscribe, rateand review the show on your
favorite podcast player.
If you have any questions orcomments or feedback for us, you
can reach me directly attheheartofshowbusinesscom.
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