In this episode I dig into the importance of improving training standards for Registered Behavior Technicians (RBTs) with special guest Stephanie Waldon, a recent master's graduate in Applied Behavior Analysis from FIT. Stephanie shares her firsthand experiences and passion for ABA, highlighting the critical need for better training, effective supervision, and meaningful mentorship. Through her journey from a novice RBT to a training manager, Stephanie recounts her initial low expectations shaped by various companies and the transformative impact of high-quality training, and the guidance of her mentor.
In this episode, we highlight the stark realities faced by RBTs because of the gap between theoretical knowledge and practical application of ABA that occurs oftentimes due to inadequate supervision and support and how incorporating Organizational Behavior Management (OBM) and robust simulations in coursework can bridge these gaps. Stephanie emphasizes the importance of supervision training in graduate programs and advocates for data-driven feedback loops to ensure RBTs are well-prepared and valued in their roles.
Join Stephanie and me in exploring the power of positive reinforcement and the importance of emotional (behavioral) support in the workplace. Learn how small gestures and a supportive organizational structure can significantly improve team morale and reduce employee turnover. We also discuss practical strategies for fostering a nurturing work environment, promoting professional development, and the vital role of leadership in creating a culture of trust and mutual respect. This episode is packed with insights and practical advice for anyone passionate about enhancing the field of ABA.
Pick up a copy of the #1 bestseller: Adaptive Intelligence: The Evolution of Emotional Intelligence Through the Proven Power of Behavior Science
The Behavioral Toolbox equips those charged with supporting behavior change in schools with practical applications of the science of human behavior for making a positive difference in the workplace. In this case, the classroom and school!
Be sure to subscribe to Dr. Paulie's Heart & Science YouTube channel for a variety of content related to behavior science and bringing out the best in yourself and others.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Thoughts and Rants of a Behavior
Scientist show hosted by WallStreet Journal and USA Today
bestselling author, dr Pauly.
Okay, welcome back to theThoughts and Rants of a Behavior
Scientist podcast.
I'm your host, dr Pauly, and Iam here with my new and, I think
(00:20):
, growing good friend, stephanieWalden.
Stephanie, how are you doingtoday?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm doing pretty good , pauly, how are you?
Speaker 1 (00:27):
I'm doing good.
I'm good.
I'm grateful that you've comeon the podcast to chat with me
Now.
Stephanie and I met throughInstagram.
I think I might have postedsomething.
You might have left somefeedback on it, or maybe it was
vice versa.
I don't really remember how itwent, but it turns out that you
actually you actually went toFIT and I think you just
graduated with your master's inABA.
But you also have a background.
(00:47):
You got your bachelor's in ABA,which is pretty cool, man,
because my background in ABA Iwas out of field Back when I
took my original coursework wasin 2003, and it was when you
didn't have to take it at theuniversity level.
Now, I had an amazing time atBehavior Analysis Inc in Sunrise
, Florida.
It was a really good program.
(01:08):
It was designed at the level ofa graduate program, but it was
just two courses and I was a BCABA for, like you know, almost
12 years.
I was going to let the wholething drop and I decided to
carry on with it, but anyway, soit turns out, what kind of
turned me on to some of thestuff that you're doing is that
you do a lot of stuff with RBTsand I could see through some of
(01:31):
your posts, like your passionabout it, and you know, we
chatted offline for a whileabout it and I was like, man,
let's get online and talk aboutthis, because RBTs are our front
line warriors.
They're out there doing lots ofstuff and, as you and I both
know and this is the point ofjumping this podcast, man
(01:52):
they're being just kind ofdropped in the ring like my
fighters that have not had anyfight training before and
they're kind of taking a beating.
Have you seen that?
Because, I mean, you've been anRBT for many years and you've
trained RBT's.
What's been your experiencewith, first of all, being an RBT
?
Why don't we start there?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
So I'm actually I consider myself a baby in this
field Only been in it for fouryears as an RBT, and you know,
as I you know, aba is my passion.
As I progressed through mystudies and everything like, I
really just loved what I wasdoing.
So I was very self-motivated interms of finding research and
(02:36):
making sure that I wasperfecting, you know, procedures
and following those operationaldefinitions.
I was really, really into it,so kind of a self-starter when
it comes to that.
In time I grew into roles whereI was mentoring other RBTs and
one of my most recent positionswas training manager at the
(02:58):
company that I was at.
From there, I remember comingin amazing company, amazing
people, but one of thecomplaints that I had was very,
very straightforward told themI'm not seeing a lot of great
(03:18):
training going on.
I think it was my first weekand I asked to kind of chat with
the clinical director.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Well, hold on.
Can you pause there and make anote on that?
I don't want to forget to comeback to that, all right, because
I think it might be importantfor people to understand.
What did you expect when youcame in there?
Maybe you had no expectations,you didn't know, or were you
like?
All right, I'm a new RBT, I'mgoing to come in here and here's
what I'm going to get.
Was there a certain level ofexpectations of what you thought
(03:46):
you would be provided, comparedto what you're about to tell us
that you were provided?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah.
So up until that point myexpectations were not very high,
only because I had already seenhow training had gone in other
companies what we call overlaptrainings, when you jump in with
another RBT and they'reteaching you the client
information and just modeling.
(04:11):
I didn't see a lot of thathappening in other corporations.
So coming into this one, Ireally didn't know what to
expect.
I kind of expected the same andI have to say, like my overlaps
trying to learn about other youknow the clients that I was
going to be working with, theywere not as effective as I would
(04:33):
have hoped.
Now I was very lucky actuallythat I had a phenomenal mentor.
You know I have to give her ashout out.
Chris Molfino is her name.
She actually sat there.
She gave me the rationale foreverything.
I'm really big on rationale Alot of BST, a lot of modeling, a
(04:56):
lot of supervision.
I think I had like some crazy50% supervision or something
really high.
So I was lucky to have that,that mentorship.
But overall I was seeing likethe training itself was not very
effective.
I wasn't seeing a lot of youknow BST.
(05:17):
I wasn't seeing a lot ofsitting down and let's read
these programs and all thethings that we need to be
equipped with in order to comein and these clients.
So you know, I'm kind of directwhen it comes to things like
that, of course, respectfully.
And I did mention like hey, Ithink this could be better, this
(05:40):
could be different, this couldbe different, and you know such
a great leadership team thateventually they gave me the
training manager position.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I kind of worked my way up, helping the current
training manager and thenfinally jumping into the
position myself.
Wait, so at this organizationthen?
Because if we went back anddon't name organizations, but,
like in your career, you hadbeen to other organizations?
Because I see there seems to betwo reasons why this happens.
I mean, if you just look at itthrough a performance lens,
right, they're not, it's eitherI can't.
(06:28):
they don't know what they'resupposed to do with RBTs, which
is always hard for me to believe, you know, or they're not
motivated to do it, they justwant to drop RBTs in there so
they can start getting paidRight and so.
But it seems like yourorganization was like, until you
kind of brought it to theirattention, maybe they thought
things were better than theywere, and then you shone a light
on it and then they said, well,hey, that sounds good, let's
improve.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
In fact, you're doing so well with it.
Let's let's put you in chargein it.
Would that be fair to say?
Yeah, that's pretty fair to say.
I mean, um, it was, uh,definitely much better than
other places that I had been inwell, can you?
Speaker 1 (06:56):
can you?
Because I want to hear, andmaybe it's other places or other
place you're heard of, right,so we're not going to say
they're necessarily the placeyou're at or other place you're
heard of, right, so we're notgonna say they're necessarily
the place you're at or otherplace, right.
But from what you know of, uh,you know what, what?
What has been like the, thenorm, what have you seen that
you know this isn't so great forthe field, this isn't so great
for the rbts.
Can you give me some examplesof, like, some of the standards,
(07:18):
of the low standards thatyou've seen out there?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
yeah, um, for for starters it's um know, once you
walk in with that RBT credential, it's almost like you're
expected to know everythingalready.
I don't need to.
You know, you took your 40 hourcourse.
You come in here, you know whatyou're doing, you know what
this means, you know what thatmeans do the job, and very
(07:41):
little checking in to see likejust how well they can really do
the job, Because differentcompanies that train these RBTs
have different standards of howwell they want them to do this.
I think it's all over the place.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
So, number one, they don't even have most places, or
too often we don't want toovergeneralize, too often we're
not bringing in people and it'snot just RBTs, behavior analysts
and other people, right, wedon't have any measure of
competency.
We don't even know what level.
They are right, so they're likeall right, you took the 40
hours and so you should be ableto do the job, and you and I
both know damn well that 40hours is not even dropping the
(08:20):
bucket of what it requires to dothe job of an RBT Absolutely
not even dropping the bucket ofwhat it requires to do the job
of an RBT?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Absolutely not.
Yeah, so it's a lot of justdropping people in.
And again, this is in generallike just dropping people in
into these sessions.
And here's your client, here'syour tablet.
You know, build report, takeyour data and moving along.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
And when they're struggling, then what happens?
I mean, I'm not talking aboutthe place that you went right
and how you did somethingdifferently, but RBTs are
struggling.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
What is the norm that you've experienced?
From a lot of conversationsI've had with many different
RBTs and I've, you know, builtrapport with dozens and dozens
of RBTs the main thing they sayis that they never really felt
supported.
They never felt like um, youknow, like when asking a
question about a behaviorintervention plan, how to
(09:13):
execute it.
Well, it's written down for you.
You should be able to read itand understand it.
So there was not a lot of umempathizing of you know this may
not be very easily understood.
You know I've heard horrorstories of RBTs getting like
(09:34):
physically injured and the BCBAwas not around.
Just the lack of support andfeeling undervalued is what I
heard from a lot of these RBTsand what do you think is at the
root of that?
Speaker 1 (09:47):
What do you?
You know, if you could, basedon your experience, what you've
seen like, why would a BCBA dothat to the RBT?
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Honestly, I think that it could be just even grad
school courses not being focusedon supervision, just even grad
school courses not being focusedon supervision.
One thing I did love about FITis that you know they put a very
heavy emphasis on supervisionand what you're going to need to
do for your RBTs and how you'regoing to need to support them.
I think that gave me a bigfoundation for how I was
(10:22):
conducting my own RBT trainings.
As an RBT, I was alreadylooking at everything from a
behavior analyst lens, like Iwas already acting as if I were
a BCBA, and that's somethingthat when I was trained by other
people when I was at differentcompanies, I wasn't getting that
.
They were just kind of goingthrough the motions and it was
(10:45):
just, you know, the job didn'tseem to be very reinforcing for
them.
So it's just to me it's BCBAsnot having you know.
And again, I've met some amazingBCBAs.
You know, most recently, allthe BCBAs that I've dealt with
have been absolutely phenomenal.
But in general, I think when Iwould train someone new and I
(11:08):
actually would ask them like youknow, how has your experience
been before coming here?
And they would tell me allthese horror stories and you
know, I barely made mysupervision last month and my
BCBA doesn't respond to myemails or just different things.
That showed that they were justkind of left on their own and I
was finding that I wasreviewing like a lot of basic
(11:33):
principles that you need to comein here.
Yes, you have your credential,but I'm still going to say, you
know, I'm going to reteach itanyways, just to make sure that
you know it.
And it was surprising how manywere like wow, you know, I never
knew that.
Or oh, wait a minute, what isstimulus control?
It's just like little thingslike that.
(11:53):
That was just like, wow, wheredid you come from, you know?
So I think you know the BCBAsout there, some BCBAs out there
just don't have a very strong, Idon't know how to put it.
The skill of being able tosupervise is something that is
(12:14):
not, you know, maybe it was notemphasized in their training.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
I would listen there's there's zero doubt about
that?
I don't.
This is my personal belief.
I'm sure there's some, you knowcons to what I'm saying, but I
see nothing but pros.
I think we should.
I think we should, I thinkeverybody should be trained in
organizational behaviormanagement.
And the reason why is becausewhen you start trying to get
results through the behavior ofothers, you are doing OBM and
(12:40):
that's everything, unless you'reworking one-on-one with a
learner.
But even then, even then,you're probably going to need
let's say, you're in somebody'shome, you're probably going to
need the parent to do somethingmore or less or differently to
help support the generalizationof the behaviors.
So that is like where you shiftto the OBM hat on.
Supervision falls under OBM,it's a performance management
approach, and so I really thinkthat everybody should have this,
(13:04):
and it sounds like you got somegood stuff in terms of I like
that.
You got to put on like yourBCBA hat to think about how
would you manage an RBT, andthat should absolutely be
happening.
I think that all this stuffshould be happening through
simulations and all coursework,and I think that you know FIT
does, you know certainly hassome great instructors there.
I went to school.
(13:25):
There as well, I know some ofthe folks are great people, but
I think in general, alluniversities need to embed some
robust simulations into theirprogramming so when behavior
analysts come out they're readyto perform.
And in my world, in the fightworld, in that part of my life,
our simulations are sparring andyou cannot expect somebody to
(13:49):
hit mitts or hit a bag and thenfight in the real fight.
You need to have simulationsand this is where you can learn
safely and we can do simulationsor analog simulations, but I
mean right now, withgamification or virtual reality,
I mean you could literally bewalking into a classroom and
doing stuff you know.
Gamification or virtual reality, I mean you could literally be
walking to a classroom and doingstuff you know.
But at a minimum we can do somelike performance-based
scenarios where you experiencesome of the consequences, like a
(14:12):
choose your journey thing, youknow and get the feedback and
why.
So you can learn that.
Hey, well, man, I screwed thatup, the parent fired me, you
know, or whatever you know.
There's so many different thingsthat we can do, but our, our
folks are not coming into thefield at any level prepared to
meet the demands, and it's notthat they're not learning on the
field, they're not learningthrough supervision if they've
got a super good supervisor,like you, but that's rare
(14:34):
because most people are notbeing trained well enough to do
it.
So now we kind of are peopleare learning through trial and
error, like I did and I bet youdid in many cases.
So many people I know and Ithink about if, man, if I had
better skill, knowledge andskills because I'd gone through
simulations and I was, you know,understood so many other facets
of what it looks like in thereal world I'd learn how to
(14:56):
consult better I could have madesuch a bigger difference.
And, more important than that,maybe I did some things that
hurt people.
I don't want to hurt people,you know, but I and I was doing
it out of desiring to make apositive impact.
But you know, coming back toyour point, we just have to do a
better job preparing our peoplefor the real world.
So, in including training oursupervisors better so they can,
(15:18):
you know people can have folkslike your supervisor was, you
know, otherwise it's.
We have droves of people notperforming well and they're
leaving.
It's hurting the, it's hurtingour learners and our client base
and hurting the field, so youknow um yeah and you know that,
um, rbt turnover is just oh, therate is just out.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
It's just unbelievable.
You know, like, uh, like arevolving door of rTs and you
know I boil that down toinsufficient training and
insufficient support.
When you can do your job reallywell, when you can walk in
there confident that you'regoing to be helping this learner
(15:58):
, that you're going to be doingeverything right, you're getting
all sorts of you know positivereinforcement from your managers
, your supervisors.
You know that reinforcementfrom your managers and your
supervisors, you know that isreinforcing.
You want to come back and youwant to keep doing that.
But when you're struggling,because you're struggling with
even basic principles, or youknow you weren't taught with
behavioral skills training,where you're actually being
(16:20):
going through that process ofmaking sure that you're fluent
in what you're doing, you getburned out.
That's where the burnout comesfrom, you know.
And then in turn the clientsuffers.
The client's not getting, youknow, quality care that they
require with turnover rates.
(16:41):
You know now the BCBAs have tostart from scratch with a whole
new RBT coming in and they haveto do the process all over and
over and it's just it's kind ofa mess.
You know it's exhausting.
So I'm also sorry for the BCBAs, who really are trying, you
know, they really are trying tosupport their staff but for one
reason or another, that turnoverrate makes them, you know, have
(17:05):
to start over and that burnsthem out as well, you know.
So it's a it's an overallproblem for everyone.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah, I, you know, and, and there just so many.
There are a number of peoplelike CEOs that are, you know,
there there are some that Iwould just say stay away from
those organizations, you know.
But there are some that arelike, really want to make it a
positive difference, but theyjust don't know better.
My colleague Anika and I areworking with somebody one of our
(17:34):
colleagues and friends andclient, christina Morales, who's
local to our area, has, uh, man, she has just embedded so many
organizational behaviormanagement principles into her,
um, uh, into her company, likebuilding them on values from the
ground up and, in her case,like she just she wanted to be
(17:55):
better.
She didn't know how to bebetter and she needed a little
bit of coaching to support herand she took the ball and run
with it.
Right now, she's done someamazing things there, but the
point being that our, our, wehave to practice what we preach
in our field, and that is, wehave to continue to use the
principles of behavior, evenwith our employees when we're in
(18:15):
our leadership position ormanagement position or
supervision or any of thesepositions, and we forget about
it, and I think this is due toour coursework I'm not saying
all coursework, but I think alot of coursework, and I think
this is due to our coursework.
I'm not saying all coursework,but I think a lot of coursework,
because it's so focused at themolecular level, it's so focused
on working with you know people, persons with disabilities that
people forget about using thescience everywhere.
Like to me, you should nevertake your lens off If you're
(18:39):
trying to figure out how tounderstand the world around you.
You know and why people aredoing what they're doing and be
the best for them, and you know,help them.
If that's what your value is,then why would you ever take the
lens off?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Exactly, yeah, and it's kind of, like I mentioned,
like positive reinforcement forRBTs.
One thing that I used to do atone of the companies I worked
with worked at was I would leavelittle sticky notes, you know,
on different RBTs, you knowbinders or their lockers or
something, and it was just somewords of affirmation, it was
(19:15):
just something that you know,like, hey, I know this is hard,
but I know that no one can do itLike you can do it, you know,
and it was not, um, I wasn'ttrying to be like patronizing, I
was being very sincere.
You know, this is one of thethings that we need to do with
our co workers in general is.
You know?
I remember one time I was in aninterview and they asked me,
(19:40):
like, how do you feel aboutworking with others?
And I said, well, how do youfeel about working with others?
And I said, well, we aretrained to build rapport with
our clients.
Right, because the better ourrapport and I don't even like
the word rapport, it's likebuilding connections.
We want to build theseconnections with our clients.
We need to do the same with ourcoworkers.
(20:01):
You know, like, overall, we allneed to be on the same team.
You know, like that wholecliche teamwork, team effort and
all that, but that's the onlyway it's going to work.
So I treated people in a waythat I wanted to make these
connections.
At one of the places I workedfor I had the nickname of mom.
(20:24):
I would hear someone say hey,mom, I need this, or I need help
with this, or I don't get this,and it's just.
I think it's just kind of likemy nurturing nature.
Yeah, so you know, but I thinkoftentimes some corporations
treat RBTs or BTs if they don'thave that credential as numbers.
(20:47):
We need this number to fillthis slot, to fill this time
block, to get this billable hourhere, that we forget that we
have human beings in front of us.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Well, even if they cared about the bottom line,
I've come across my.
I've had enough experienceswith narcissistic leadership,
many years of consulting andworking and stuff.
And even if even if you loveattention, that's what you want
to be as a CEO, or you want tomake money, that's your bottom
line you got to take care ofyour employees, no matter what.
(21:19):
You know what I mean.
If you take care of theiremployees, they're going to take
care of you.
I don't know what could beclearer to me.
I mean, every time youremployee leaves, it costs money.
It's costing, you know, 20% oftheir salary, you know.
So what is that?
What do RVTs make these days?
I don't know, you know, butthat's $5,000, $6,000, $7,000,
$8,000.
It's costing every time theyturn over and it's bankrupting
the organizational memory.
(21:40):
And certainly if you want toprovide good support to the
learners, the clients, that'shurting, so it's going to hurt
the bottom line.
So if you really want toproduce some robust business
results, take care of yourpeople.
Build your system on goodorganizational behavior
management principles, whichmeans you need to know what
people's reinforcers are andyou've got to make sure you're
(22:06):
getting value-added behavior intouch with positive
reinforcement.
Your whole system should bedesigned on values from the
ground up.
It should be deliberatelydesigned to deliver positive
reinforcement for value-addedbehavior period.
All the principles are the same.
We just chain performancetogether to produce some sort of
end result in theseorganizations.
But they just don't see it.
They see the quick fix, not thequick win.
They see I want to make thequick buck, I want to make the
(22:26):
quick buck, I want to do this,you know.
And now like shit rollsdownhill, you know.
So they're putting pressure onthe director, the director's
putting pressure on the BCBA.
The BCBA has gotten out toomany clients and everybody's
trying to bill and there's likeman, it's just like we just have
to be better.
We just have to be better.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Absolutely, and you know, speaking of reinforcement
with rbt's like, by the way,like the the rate for an rbt
I've seen anywhere from 13 to 27an hour has been, which I can.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
I don't understand this because I know some very
legit people, right, I know,like, and it's to me, I've gone
to seeing these organizationswhere, uh, I like they're giving
the, they're giving the RBTsthe most they can get, right,
and I said, you know what, juststick with it, because if they
leave because the grass isgreener, there's no way it's
greener over there becausethere's something going on there
.
I'm not going to say it's fraud.
(23:17):
I'm not not going to say it'sfraud.
Something is being sacrificedto give that differential.
You know what I thatdifferential?
You know I mean like and so, ofcourse, if you're an rbt, like,
why you're not going to want tomake 15, 17, 20 bucks an hour.
We can go down the street, make27 an hour, but it at what is
the cost of that?
Where is that money coming from?
Speaker 2 (23:37):
I don't understand it that's what I don't understand
either.
And, um, you know, I kind of Iwas thinking about this.
Um, you know, last organizationthat I left I was trying to
find, like, how does thisproblem get solved?
Because one of the issues I wasseeing was RBTs coming in and
they were just venting like I'mnot going to make rent, I'm not
(23:59):
going to be able to pay my rent,and it was just like
heartbreaking because you know,you have those client
cancellations.
When you have the clientcancellations that RBT doesn't
have the work, they don't getpaid, they're just sitting at
home just like wondering, likedo I go work at the grocery
store for two dollars more andnot have to deal with this?
(24:21):
At least it's like a consistentfull time job.
So that's where I'm actuallystuck, polly, like how do we
solve this problem?
Like I, you know, whenever Ihave any kind of feedback about
something that I see that is notright or it's, you know, could
be better, before I approach youwith that feedback, I'm going
(24:42):
to have a whole list ofsolutions.
You know, I came to traininglike I had PowerPoints with
citations.
It almost looked like a gradschool homework assignment, you
know, because I wanted to showyou know why this is going to
work, why doing it different isgoing to be beneficial to
(25:02):
everyone, and just giving thatrationale and giving that
solution.
So I'm very solution based whenit comes to things.
This in particular, I was stuck.
I'm like how does this getfixed?
You know, do you talk toparents about attendance, Do you
?
You know, I just I don't know,and that's something that, like,
I'm actively going to work onfinding out like what would be a
(25:26):
rational solution to thisproblem.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
I think there are contingencies that can be put in
place.
I just don't remember what theywere because I was a COO at a
company and we had some of thoseissues.
But, like you know, there'slike performance-based pay,
right.
So you know, of course you havea minimum amount of hours that
they need to serve to make theirsalary, you know.
And then you know you have somebonuses for making you know X
(25:52):
amount of hours.
But you also have contingenciesfor the parents that way too,
where they can save money forshowing up you know X amount of
times, or whatever.
You know.
So we got to.
You know, figure out whatpeople's reinforcers are.
And there was.
So you gotta, we gotta.
You know, figure out whatpeople's reinforcers are.
And there's also things likehey, if you're not going to be
able to make it this much, thenwe're going.
There's somebody else that'swaiting in line.
You know, we want to be able tomake sure that we have to stay
(26:12):
solvent.
We want to make sure that weare able to treat the consumers.
So you know, like, if you, ifyou know you either still have
to pay, or you know there's a,there's a minimum amount of pay
for not coming you, you knowthat's all agreed up up front
and like listen, if you'reproviding good service, they're
not going to want to miss forthe most part you know what I
mean Especially if they're goingto lose their spot or something
along those lines.
So I don't know.
(26:33):
It's been a while since I'vebeen in that part of it, but I
think there are definitelythings that that can occur up
front with these contingencies.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Yeah, yeah, that that , yeah, yeah that.
Um, when you have parents,though, like don't that, don't
pay out of pocket, I think, um,you know, insurance covers
everything, then that becomes uh, you know, they're not really
getting hit in the pockets, foryou know, he said, you're still
gonna have to pay even if youdon't show up.
Um, so that's something thatyou know.
I don't know how they're notgonna want to lose their.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Yeah, I'm for those.
Maybe it's like they don't wantto lose their place.
You know not going to want tolose their.
Yeah, I'm thinking for those.
Maybe it's like they don't wantto lose their place.
You know they don't want to losethe support, you know, and we
explain like, yeah, you know,it's kind of like an agreement
up front, like we have employeesand we have to stay solvent,
you know.
So there's always going to besomething.
But I think if we can solve,like you know, 80% of those
problems that are just going tobe like and I guess we stick to
(27:24):
the policy.
But I mean, it is a big issue.
I think some companies havedone better with it than others.
I would love to get somebody inthere and talk about the good
program that they've had Again.
It's been so long since I'vethought about that kind of stuff
so I don't want to do billingand everything.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah and no go ahead.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
So do you think so, with those RBTs that are unable
to make the bills?
So, because we were coming backto the $13 versus $27 an hour,
I think, man, I think all RBTsshould be making $27 an hour.
I think it would be wonderfulto pay their.
It's a challenging job.
They are on the front line andtaking these beatings, some
figuratively and literallysometimes, which is, people have
(28:04):
no idea how challenging it canbe with some of these learners,
especially if they have physicalaggression or self-injurious
behavior.
It's very challenging for them.
So I mean, if they're notmaking the money, they're not
getting the hours, they're likescrew this, I'm going to leave
and I'm going to go to, like yousaid, I'm going to go to the
grocery store, I'm going to geta different job somewhere else,
(28:27):
where becoming an Rbt should bea path to becoming a bcba.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
you know we should be trying to lift them up and grow
them within the company, don'tyou think?
Yeah, I agree.
And um, I often ask that like,uh, when I would train an rbt
and ask like, hey, you knowwhat's, what's your end goal
here?
Are you gonna go into being abcba, especially the ones that
have been doing it for likethree, four years?
You, you know, kind of like meand the response I usually got
(28:52):
was like I don't think I couldhandle.
You know BCBA.
And I explained to them well,you know, actually being a BCBA
is probably easier than being anRVT, because someone else is
going to be doing that directcare and you can provide that
support to them.
And it almost seems like itturns them away from the field.
And I've seen people who finishgrad school for ABA and then
(29:14):
suddenly decide they want to gointo a completely different
field, like finance or something.
And this is not related to ABA,because it just left such a
sour taste in their mouth fromthe experience and it's just I
don't know.
I think it really starts withyou know one thing that my
(29:35):
mentor used to do all the timeshe would always check on me,
but she wasn't checking in on melike are you doing your work,
okay, are you understanding this?
She would check on me, like areyou doing your work, okay, are
you understanding this?
She would check on me, like howare you doing stuff?
How are you doing?
You know, I don't want you toburn out.
(29:56):
I'm here if you want to talkabout something unrelated to
work.
Like you know, like she wasalways willing to provide that
support.
That was, you know, just, you'remore than an RBT implementing
these interventions that I wrote, you know.
So to me that was veryimportant and made me want to
(30:17):
learn more from her.
And I said to myself you know,when I hire RBT's, if I get to
that point, I'm going to makesure that I do the same thing.
You know, like remind them thatthis is very difficult work, uh
, but you're a very valuablepart of this work.
Like without you as an RBT,like this can't be done.
(30:39):
You know there are BCBAs whojust go and do direct therapy
and that's it.
But if you're going to beworking for another company,
you're going to have RBTs.
And so I learned through myjourney as an RBT and as a
training manager and, just youknow, a student analyst, what to
do and what not to do, butdefinitely one of the things to
(31:03):
do is to support these RBTs, youknow, even at an emotional
level, because it's a veryemotionally taxing job.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Well, I mean, first of all, your learning curve is
like steep, you know, given howlong you've been in the field,
you certainly have, you know,learned and done an awful lot in
such a short amount of time,but it's a testament to your
values.
My guess is, you know, whateverfield you went into, you would
do something similar, because itseems like you really care
(31:33):
about people, and I respect that.
I mean the fact that that BCBAcame to you and I, you know,
shout out to her.
Was that the one from thebeginning that you mentioned?
That was mentioned.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, chris, my man.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Yeah, beginning that you mentioned, that was yeah,
yeah, yeah, chris, my yeah,chris.
Uh, helping you to feel safeand saying how are you doing?
I love that.
Like, why don't we?
It should happen so much more?
Uh, you know, in in checking in, um, one of the big things that
I talk about and we talk aboutin our trainings, uh, in my
books, is reciprocal feedback.
Um, you know, we give feedbackto help people to grow, but we
(32:07):
also have to look at theirperformance as feedback for us,
right?
So if they're not performing tosome standard, what do I need
to do more, less or differently?
Right?
If that's the person I'msupporting, but also checking in
with them and getting feedback,how am I doing for you, you
know?
is there something I can do?
How can I be better for you?
And I think if people humbledthemselves like that and used
that and just checked in withpeople, I mean, look at what it
(32:28):
did for you.
It made you feel safe I knowit's like psychological safety.
It made you trust them.
It made you feel like you knowyou probably could speak to her
and let her know what you'restruggling with.
If she helped you a little bit,you know she gave you some
information that was importantto you, that made your job
easier, that helped you toproduce some sort of valued
outcomes.
Man, that's positivereinforcement.
She's pairing herself as apositive reinforcer.
That's the kind of thing weneed, because it's building your
(32:49):
skills, it's building yourretention, you know.
It's creating more knowledgeand skills in you.
So you can help, you know,probably help her, help the RBTs
and et cetera, et cetera.
I mean it just has a largeripple effect and I think it's a
beautiful thing, large rippleeffect, and I think it's a
beautiful thing.
I would like to know whatschool she came from and how.
How did she get to be that way?
Or is it just that we just havesome people that have such
(33:10):
strong values that they figureit out.
What do you?
What do you think it was?
Speaker 2 (33:14):
You know that's actually a good question.
I don't remember.
I know she has a background incounseling, so there you go.
There you go Right.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
There you go.
Well, I think that we do in our.
I did a podcast earlier withPat Freiman and we were talking
about this and I think and thisis just my perspective, but I
think for a long time as a field, because what he was saying was
that, of all fields, everybodyelse, all the other fields
(33:46):
engineering, all differentsciences, astrophysics you know
they speak to the public in away that makes it easier for
them to understand, but I feellike we have not focused on that
, not for a long time.
I think, probably maybe overthe last decade.
We're starting to see a shiftfinally, and for a long time we
didn't decade there's we'restarting to see a shift finally,
(34:06):
and it for a long time wedidn't.
But I wonder if we didn't do itpurposely, because we were
trying to keep our like showthat we're a legitimate field,
so we need to speak sciencey, sowe seem like real scientists,
something like that.
I don't know.
I wrote about this a while back.
I'll drop the article and um alink to the article.
I think I shared it with youyou did share with me.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
With me, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yeah, and I think that I just often wonder about
that because I feel we should beso much better in that area,
but I think it needs to beprogrammed into our coursework,
because it's like we'reseparating the humanism from the
science and I think that thatwe've been searching for a heart
(34:46):
, but I think we've had theheart.
Like the Tin man, the Wizard ofOz, we've had the heart the
whole time.
It's the science.
What could be morecompassionate than effectively
applying the science to helppeople, to help themselves and
help others?
I mean, honestly, gosh, whatcould be better than that?
Because it's as efficient andeffective as we could be if we
use science.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah, and I think in our training, like it's drilled
into our heads that we have tobe very objective.
You know, observable behaviorand along the lines it just
becomes so technical and it just, you know, some of the mock
exams I was looking at and it'slike this is kind of how we were
(35:28):
wired to have all thistechnical language and then it
becomes very hard to kind ofseparate that.
You know, people have a problemlike even communicating with
stakeholders and like hey, don'tuse negative reinforcement,
positive reinforcement, mandingtechnique, don't use those words
.
You know, like trying to teachRBTs, don't do that, because
(35:51):
even RBTs have that problem.
You know, speaking in thistechnical jargon.
So it definitely is a problem.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
It absolutely is.
I think that part of coursework.
I think we should be able totake an event right, just an
average event that's describedin average words, and I think we
should be able to explain itbehavior analytically and then
explain it to lay person rightwhat it means behaviorally.
So you should be able to takethat and explain it in both ways
.
And I think that I don't thinka lot of people can do that.
(36:17):
I think that they might be, youknow, like.
I think they have to be able totake these concepts and speak
two languages with them, one tothe scientist and one to the
non-scientist.
And I think it's reallyimportant and mostly we have to
build that non-scientistlanguage because we have to
communicate with our consumers,we have to disseminate the
science more and help people tounderstand.
(36:39):
But sometimes I wonder is itthat we don't understand it well
enough and that's why we're notdoing it, especially with some
of the things I see out thereand people, even in our own
field, hating on the science.
Like, how could you hate on thescience?
It's just a science.
There's nothing wrong with thescience.
People have misapplied it, nodoubt about it.
Let's get to the root cause ofthat, but like don't hate the
science right, I agree it is.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
I want to go back for a second to what you mentioned
about feedback from like rbts.
I do remember one thing thatwas mentioned from several
people that I had trained uh,how was this?
You know, I would ask, how wasthe support where you came from?
And they would mention, likehow some bcbas would have, like,
(37:23):
uh, social validity surveys andthey would do these check-ins
and have them fill them out andthey would be honest in them.
Like you know, I feel like Icould meet, I could use more
training on this BIP.
I feel like I need support withthis, and they would be giving
that information and the BCBAswould do absolutely nothing with
(37:44):
it.
Like it was just kind of likefor show you know, so that was
one thing.
Is it was just kind of like forshow you know, so that was one
thing.
Is you know, as BCBAs, when I'mfinally passing the exam and
take this exam as a BCBA?
Like that's one thing.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Like making sure that we are following through when
we get this feedback, that's asystems error because that data
so there should be, that RBTdata should be reporting out to
BCBA.
To their coach I'm saying thisis what I need and the BCBA
(38:22):
should be reporting out thatI've responded to my RBTs and
that data should be reported outright and there should be a
match.
Rbts said I need help.
Bcba say they're giving helpright, but when there's no
contingency in place there,right, that's not part of the
scorecard, it's not somethingthat's looked at Again.
People are going to eithertheir values are going to drive
them and if their values aren'tstrong enough, it's going to be.
(38:44):
You know how can I do?
Just enough to get by?
You know and get paid.
You know, and then there's amix in there because you know
when things get too difficult,you know you're going to get
escape motivated behavior.
So.
But I think with a good systemit keeps behavior and
performance in a very clean andefficient line and that kind of
(39:05):
stuff should not be happening,right, because it can be just a
show.
And then you know we havecompanies marketing it.
Well, we check in with ourpeople, you know all the time.
Okay, what are you doing withthat data?
You know what does that mean.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Right, and you had mentioned in one of our previous
conversations, like how youknow, we talked about behavior
chains, and then we have these,the RBT, and then it goes to the
BCBA and then the clinicaldirector and then to, you know,
the CEO or whatever.
Like can you?
Can you explain that again?
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Oh you, oh sure, yeah .
So with any organization, youwant to start with the result,
right, the end in mind.
So let's say, retention is anissue, okay.
And then you want to improvethat retention.
So we'll say, well, what needsto happen?
Well, you've already keyed inon a couple of those things,
like well, rbts would probablystay if they knew better.
Right, if they knew better,they would do better.
So we want RBTs to be followingthe plan effectively, following
(39:56):
the plan, doing these things sothey can promote socially valid
outcomes.
We can help the learner learn,right, because that feels good.
Rbts want to feel that they'redoing something.
They want to feel they want tosee that they're making a change
with the learners.
That feels really good for them, right.
And of course, they're gettingpaid, et cetera, right.
(40:17):
So there's the differentreinforcers.
Now, if we want the RBTs to beable to do that, well, what's
the BCBA need to doed in theplan?
Training is about the skillacquisition.
Coaching is about thegeneralization of those learned
skills into the nationalenvironment.
Okay, they're wonderful.
So if we want that to happen uh, you know, and we, of course we
(40:38):
want the bcba to be checking inwith rbt and using their
performance as a measure of them, feedback for them.
What do they need to do more orless so differently if we want
that to happen?
Well, what do we need thedirector to do?
Well, we need the director tobe coaching the BCBAs.
We need the BCBAs to bereporting out what kind of
support they've given the RBTs,and they need to be looking at
the RBT data.
And they need to be reinforcingthe BCBAs for doing it right,
(41:01):
and et cetera.
So there's got to be metricsfor that and we got to chain
that all the way to top the.
What does the CEO need to do?
Well, the CEO needs to makesure that all these principles
are grounded in the values.
They need to be sharing datawith everybody.
They need to be giving feedbackacross the organization.
They got to be looking at theaggregate data at the executive
level, but that data needs to bebroken down to each level, so
(41:22):
each person has a piece of thepie to look at.
Right, because that databecomes feedback for them how
well are my RPTs performing?
Right For the director, howwell are my BCBAs performing?
Or the supervisor?
Whoever it is right and up thechain.
So everybody has this positiveaccountability Each person
should be.
Each person has a result thatthey're trying to produce.
(41:43):
Are they producing that result?
And if they're not producingthat result, why?
And if a lot of people are notproducing the result, then you
really have a systems issue.
But even if only one person'snot resulting, producing that
result, we, it's not a we can'tblame.
Blaming gets us absolutelynowhere.
It does the opposite, makesthings worse.
(42:03):
We have to keep on a behavioranalytic lens and we have to do
some sort of performancediagnostics.
You know, is it can't do ordon't do, you know, if they
can't do, we got to give themthe skills and it's not we don't
have to.
We keep it simple.
Can you tell me what you'resupposed to do?
Can you show me what you'resupposed to do?
Can you do it quickly?
Boom, that's a wrap, you know?
Um, if it's a, if it's a, don'tdo.
(42:26):
And, I think, got some otherfactors.
And this is where, whereas, ifwe are in a position of managing
somebody else's performance,and from whatever level, we have
to reflect in the mirror, right, or how often are we observing?
Are we giving feedback?
What kind of feedback are wegiving right?
Are we correcting more thanwe're reinforcing?
Are we helping people see theyou know the outcome of their
behaviors.
Do they value those outcomes?
(42:46):
If they don't value those andwe say, well, you know, they
just don't value it.
Well, I believe good leadership, or good leading, actually is
an MO.
Right, they create value forthings.
(43:15):
No-transcript all three thingsat once.
Right, they can barely remembertwo.
Usually I focus on just onething.
Right, just throw the jab, justturn the knuckle over.
Turn the knuckle over right,and then we do the pivot, the
back foot.
But anyways, the point beingthat at each level we have to
figure out, you know, ifsomebody's not performing to a
(43:36):
standard which we need to know,what that standard is.
Right, coming back to yourpoint at the beginning, we don't
even know how competent peopleare and we need to use their own
performance as their ownbaseline and build from there.
But we don't have any of thatdata because too often we're not
using the principles ofbehavior within the organization
.
I'm not going to, I can't, Idon't want to overgeneralize
that, because I know there areplaces like Christina's place
(43:57):
that are doing a piece of thepuzzle behavior analysis in Vero
, or Liquid Park near my areashe's super and there's other
organizations out there that aredoing the right thing, but I
would love to go around.
Wouldn't it be cool to goaround and just find these
organizations and shine a?
Speaker 2 (44:16):
light on them and do videos on them and write
articles on them or whatever.
Wouldn't that be cool?
That would be amazing.
And the first time youexplained all this to me, like I
completely understood, and Ijust I, I think I just want
everyone else to hear it becauseit's just, it seems so simple.
You know, like it's a lot ofresponse effort, but it's
definitely what should behappening in all these
organizations and really it'sjust like we said at the
(44:39):
beginning, I don't know why, youknow, everyone is not taking on
OBM principles and, you know,just implementing these within
their own companies and it'sjust it just kind of mind
blowing, Like we should knowbetter.
You know this is.
We have the solution at hand,it's just a matter of
implementing it.
We do.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
I again I'm going to come back to, and I think it's
the same thing we agree on.
I think that I mean, I didn'teven know what organizational
behavior management was when.
I came out, I knew that I hadsaid to somebody that was
working at a school that wasstruggling, and I said you know
there was school-wide positivebehavior support.
Have you ever heard of that?
Yeah, I have.
So I said to a colleague like Ikind of think we need positive
(45:22):
behavior supports for the adultsbecause you know, if we're
going to bring out the best inthe students, we have to bring
out the best in adults.
And I don't see any of theadults doing the things that
they were trained in inrelationship to this.
And they said there issomething like that.
It's called organizationalbehavior management.
That's why they, when theyhanded me the book by opera
daniels called bring out thebest in people, which changed my
life, and it's not thatanything that was profound in it
(45:42):
.
I mean, thank god aubrey wrotethis stuff, but what he did was
state the obvious.
It's the same principles thatwe all know.
Right, that's why this is.
But this whole behavior myopia.
We forget about using theprinciples when we're working
with other adults.
For some odd reason we justwant to play people man and cuss
at them or cuss in our head orcall them lazy or do all this
stuff.
And I've done it, believe me.
(46:02):
I still have to check myselfagainst it, you know, because
it's we all have our own historybut know we do have the tools
to be better.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Absolutely.
It's just a matter of using it.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
So, um, all right, so we've got about 10 minutes or
so ish left.
Um, I'm wondering in a, in a,in a perfect world, right, let's
say that Christina had uh, uh,uh, uh, let me see, hold on,
lord have mercy.
I just said the wrong name.
I wasn't talking aboutChristina Morales.
(46:37):
I'm sorry about that.
I screw up names all the time.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
My middle name is Christine.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Oh, okay, Well that can work right, all right.
Well, christina Morales, youknow I love you, girl.
You're on my mind.
When I was thinking about thatstuff, we were just talking
about Stephanie, right?
So, stephanie, I know whatChristina would say if she could
wave a magic wand.
But, stephanie, if Stephaniecould wave a magic wand, based
on what's your knowledge andagain, I recognize that you are
relatively new to the field, but, like man, you've making leaps
(47:05):
and bounds.
You know, especially I knowsome of the stuff from when we
spoke offline but what are justlike three things that you wish
you could change right now justto make it better for RBTs let's
say it was your organizationwhen they come in.
Here's what you're definitelygoing to do.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
Oh yeah, definitely some hardcore training,
regardless of how long you'vebeen in the field, whether you
just got your RBT or you had itfor five, six years, um, coming
in like I feel all RBT should betreated as if they know nothing
and it's you know.
That's.
One thing that I would alwayssay is like I am not trying to
(47:41):
insult your intelligence, you'reprobably going to hear me
retraining you on things thatyou're going to look at me funny
Cause it's very basic stuff.
Um, and when I'm guessing, whenyou're retraining them, it's
that you're going to look at mefunny because it's very basic
stuff.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
And I'm guessing, when you're retraining them,
it's also you're assessing theircompetency, because you don't
want to do overkill withsomething, but you give them
training.
Okay, you got that Cool, let'smove on to the next.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
Yeah.
So then, just making sure thatthey have that solid training,
definitely incorporating BSD inthat, making sure that they're
comfortable and they're fluentin their skills.
So number one is just thatsolid training.
Number two is remembering thatthey are human beings.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
You know you have.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
You have to give them that emotional support.
I know we have ethics rulesthat we can't, like you have
these dual relationships.
I'm not taking.
I'm not saying like take themout to dinner and just give them
that support.
We recognize precursorbehaviors in our learners, right
when we know that a certainbehavior is coming and we're
looking for that and we want tostop it before it gets to that,
(48:45):
you know, to the behavior wedon't want to see.
Same applies to our RBTs.
You can see some precursorbehaviors when they're
struggling when they're gettingready to leave when they're
getting ready to all the samestuff.
Yeah.
So it's like catch thoseprecursors before your RBT burns
(49:07):
out.
And third is just that ongoingsupervision, you know, making
sure that you are checking infrequently.
You are, you know, reteachingskills and it's just an ever go,
it's, it's an ongoing process.
It should just keep happening.
It's not something that, oh,she's really great.
I know you do this.
(49:28):
Well, I'll see you in two weeksor I'll see you in three weeks,
especially those who are, youknow, doing those in home
sessions where DCBAs are notusually present.
So to me I mean those threethings.
And you know, for biggerorganizations, having someone
dedicated to you know trainingconsistently, constantly, like
(49:53):
that, should be the only jobthey have.
You know, nothing else but thetraining.
And you know, I think with thatin place, things could start to
change.
You know, of course it's notgoing to make the company
perfect.
There's always going to be amillion and one different
problems.
But pertaining to RBTs, I thinkthat you know that's kind of my
(50:14):
goal down the line.
This is how I'm going to treatit.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Yeah, good, I love that.
And I think it's better toreplace the word training with
professional development,because in professional
development, we could saytraining and coaching.
Training is about skillacquisition, coaching is about
supporting the generalization ofthose learned skills in the
natural environment.
Right, we switch frominstructing people what they
need to do to asking them whatare they doing and what impact
they're having.
Essentially, you know.
(50:38):
But to your point, yeah, we needto have somebody that's
dedicated to professionaldevelopment, making sure that
these folks can do well, and Ithink we need to check in on
them regularly.
To your point and respond to it, there should be like on Fiverr
I don't know if I'm saying itright Fiverr, fiverr, do you
know the contracting thing?
I have some of my editing workdone from there.
(50:59):
Anyways, I'll leave feedbackfor somebody, but then I get a
private email from them sayinglike, hey, this is just between
us.
How do you think that went withthat contractor?
I just think, man, we need todo more checks and balances
within organizations, but weshould never, ever, ever, ever
use that data to punish peopleever.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Or people find a baseline right.
But I think it just createspositive accountability.
We should use it as much aspossible to positively reinforce
right.
So if we're shaping more well,we set we set sub goals and
accomplishments.
Then that data can be used toshow people like you're moving
in the right direction.
Look, you're doing this.
Your behavior is getting betterin this area.
Check out the results you'reproducing, you know.
I think in the end people wantto.
They want to know that they'vedone a good job.
(51:44):
At the end of the day, you knowa lot don't, because they're
not even sure what results theyshould be producing.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Yeah, every time I've seen any like punishing
contingencies put in place tocorrect behavior with RBT, it
backfires, it absolutelybackfires, and it places the
blame on the RBT where you knowthat's not where the that's not
where you should be looking.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
You know like Look in the mirror, the PDC, that's
what they need to look.
The performance diagnosticchecklist very simple.
Start there before you startgiving them any corrective
feedback.
Have you, have you created anenvironment where they could be
successful?
If you've done all that stuffokay and you've provided
reasonable support and you knowwe could define what that means,
then I think, okay, let's havea chat, then it's time for, like
(52:28):
a tough talk, because thatneeds to happen sometimes.
But let's not do that until wehave that kind of environment.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Absolutely, and also making sure, like reinforcers
are actually reinforcing.
You know, like a $5 Starbucksgift card is not necessarily
going to be reinforcing tosomeone.
I think what I've found to bemost reinforcing to to RBTs is
just that positive feedback,that genuine you are doing a
(52:55):
great job and that's not to say,like, you know, you can't tell
them they're not doing somethingcorrectly.
You know, when they're notdoing something correctly,
approach it like, hey, this iswhat we're going to do different
.
This is, you know, butreinforcers, you know, those
little gift cards or it's just,it just does not work.
Speaker 1 (53:14):
Now, if you're relying on that kind of stuff,
that's like any schools thatI've gone into and they have a
token economy, right, and I lookin the hallways they're yelling
at kids, they're giving tokens.
I'm like, you know, let's try afriggin.
Here's an intervention, let'scall it, just be fucking nice,
use my language, right, but canwe just start by like smiling at
the kids and doing that stuff,the tokens, all the gifts, that
should be just like, hey, thisis literally a token of my
(53:37):
appreciation.
You deserve much more than this.
But I think that when peoplefeel valued in an organization,
right, if you have that kind ofculture, people come for the
money but they stay for theculture.
I mean, that's literally theone of the discussions that,
speaking of christina, uh, thatwe had with her, with her
organization, um, that and thatis true.
But I've actually seen peopleleave and come back, you know,
(54:01):
because you know you kind ofwant to get that 20 an hour
thing.
Then you're like wait a secondyou know I don't want to be
miserable, and am I doing thingsthat are?
And I'm not saying thosecompanies are doing something
unethical.
I'm not saying they're not.
I don't want to be miserable,and am I doing things that are?
And I'm not saying thosecompanies are doing something
unethical.
I'm not saying they're not.
I don't know.
I just don't understand howit's happening.
But anyways, I think you knowpeople want to feel valued.
They want to feel like they'redoing a good job.
At the end, you know mostpeople aren't leaving for the
(54:21):
money that we leaving because ofbad leadership, whatever role
that's at.
I think you know bad systems,bad leadership it could be good
people I'm not saying they'renot good people but there's a
system there that's not justhelping people, you know, be as
successful as they can be andget in touch with their
reinforcers.
End of story.
Speaker 2 (54:38):
Absolutely, and that's the key right there
feeling valued.
You know, I've seen RBTs comingto me and telling me like, if
you need help with training, ifyou need help with this, I would
love to do that and, oh my gosh, I jumped on that so fast.
Speaker 1 (54:54):
Well, that's a measure of your leadership,
though.
When people come to you and askyou want to volunteer, that's
want to do behavior right, asopposed to have to do behavior
when you hear people saying,well, I don't want to do that,
it's not my job.
That's really great stuff.
That's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (55:07):
That was like my reinforcer, you know, like
seeing people coming in andcreating a team where they would
you know these are thedesignated people.
Hey, if anyone else wants to dothis, let me know.
And I would have people comingin and saying, hey, I want to be
a part of this, I want to be apart of this training.
So you had, like, lead trainers, you know that were helping me
(55:29):
out, and it was just like itjust makes everything easier,
not just for me but for them.
The new RBT is coming in andfor the learners and everything.
So, yeah, feeling valued and,you know, playing up on people's
strengths, recognize thosestrengths.
You do really good when you'resitting down and doing DTT with
your learner.
Hey, do you mind if I bringthis person to watch you for 30
(55:52):
minutes?
Speaker 1 (55:52):
Huge huge reinforcer.
Or even saying like I noticedthat kid's behaving so well.
What did you do?
That's great.
Speaker 2 (55:59):
Absolutely so.
It was just a lot ofreinforcing those good behaviors
from the RBTs and that was goodenough to keep them going.
Didn't need a you know fivedollar gift card.
They didn't need this.
It was just feeling valued fortheir that's at the core of it.
Speaker 1 (56:16):
Man, if you live, if you live down here, I would so
try to plug you into christina'sorganization.
You'd be a perfect fit theresounds awesome yeah yeah, it
sounds like a match made inheaven.
Well, listen, we're up at theend of this hour here, steph,
and it's been a fun chat.
I appreciate you coming on tochat with me, and when are you
sitting for your certification,by the way?
Speaker 2 (56:39):
Very soon.
Speaker 1 (56:40):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (56:41):
You know, I put in my application.
I actually prolonged putting inmy application for way too long
.
I had a lot of things going onand finally I was like, okay,
let me just put in thisapplication.
I was just talking to a friendof mine who just did the same
thing.
We've been sitting on it for solong, so I'm really just
waiting on the board right nowto get back.
Speaker 1 (57:01):
All right.
Well, you're lucky At leastwhen you take the test now.
You don't have to wait for likethree months yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:05):
Oh man oh yeah, it was.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
I think when I did it it might have been six months,
I don't remember it was a while.
But I remember also being atthe local, the state conference
down here, faba, and you knowsome people running up and down
the hallway.
They pass, and then you'd seesomebody over the corner like
crying you know it's sad, nomatter what you know.
It's just repetition.
Some people say they're notgood test takers.
I'm like no, that's not it.
You're not a good test prepperbecause if you prep well enough
(57:30):
and you do like small chunks,over time distributed we talked
about this a little bit yeah,you'll do fine, and if you don't
do fine just means you justneed to keep doing.
Speaker 2 (57:38):
That's all just repetition there you go and, um,
you know, thank you for givingme the platform, because this is
, this is really a passionatesubject for me, you know,
passionate, a passionate topic.
And it'll be interesting, onceI'm I'm a credentialed BCBA, to
come back and see like is myperspective different, you know,
(57:58):
like once I have thatcredential and I'm actually, you
know, Don't lose thisperspective.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
I don't think it's going to be different.
Speaker 2 (58:04):
I hope not.
Speaker 1 (58:06):
Everything you're saying is right on.
It's not.
You know, certainly, if youbecome a CEO, there are a lot of
other things that you have tothink about, but your
perspective is still right onspot.
You know, I mean, that's righton point.
So all right.
Well, when you do get yourbehavior analyst, certification,
make sure you give me a shout.
You know, and you know,eventually, when you own your
own company, we'll get you backon here, maybe before that, when
(58:29):
you're in your supervisor role,and we'll see how it evolves
from you, how you're respectable.
We'll pull out this podcast andyou can compare notes.
How about that?
Speaker 2 (58:37):
That sounds perfect, thank you.
Speaker 1 (58:39):
If somebody wanted to reach out to you?
What's the best ways?
Your email, or do you just wantthem to contact you on LinkedIn
?
I can drop this in the shownotes.
Speaker 2 (58:48):
LinkedIn and probably Instagram are probably my two
main ones right now.
Speaker 1 (58:53):
Okay, I'll link those both to the show notes.
So well, it's been a pleasureand I look forward to chatting
with you more.
Speaker 2 (59:01):
Sounds good, paulie.
Thank you, bye-bye.
Welcome to the Thoughts and Rants of a Behavior
Scientist show hosted by WallStreet Journal and USA Today
bestselling author, dr Pauly.
Okay, welcome back to theThoughts and Rants of a Behavior
Scientist podcast.
I'm your host, dr Pauly, and Iam here with my new and, I think
(00:20):
, growing good friend, stephanieWalden.
Stephanie, how are you doingtoday?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm doing pretty good , pauly, how are you?
Speaker 1 (00:27):
I'm doing good.
I'm good.
I'm grateful that you've comeon the podcast to chat with me
Now.
Stephanie and I met throughInstagram.
I think I might have postedsomething.
You might have left somefeedback on it, or maybe it was
vice versa.
I don't really remember how itwent, but it turns out that you
actually you actually went toFIT and I think you just
graduated with your master's inABA.
But you also have a background.
(00:47):
You got your bachelor's in ABA,which is pretty cool, man,
because my background in ABA Iwas out of field Back when I
took my original coursework wasin 2003, and it was when you
didn't have to take it at theuniversity level.
Now, I had an amazing time atBehavior Analysis Inc in Sunrise
, Florida.
It was a really good program.
(01:08):
It was designed at the level ofa graduate program, but it was
just two courses and I was a BCABA for, like you know, almost
12 years.
I was going to let the wholething drop and I decided to
carry on with it, but anyway, soit turns out, what kind of
turned me on to some of thestuff that you're doing is that
you do a lot of stuff with RBTsand I could see through some of
(01:31):
your posts, like your passionabout it, and you know, we
chatted offline for a whileabout it and I was like, man,
let's get online and talk aboutthis, because RBTs are our front
line warriors.
They're out there doing lots ofstuff and, as you and I both
know and this is the point ofjumping this podcast, man
(01:52):
they're being just kind ofdropped in the ring like my
fighters that have not had anyfight training before and
they're kind of taking a beating.
Have you seen that?
Because, I mean, you've been anRBT for many years and you've
trained RBT's.
What's been your experiencewith, first of all, being an RBT
?
Why don't we start there?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
So I'm actually I consider myself a baby in this
field Only been in it for fouryears as an RBT, and you know,
as I you know, aba is my passion.
As I progressed through mystudies and everything like, I
really just loved what I wasdoing.
So I was very self-motivated interms of finding research and
(02:36):
making sure that I wasperfecting, you know, procedures
and following those operationaldefinitions.
I was really, really into it,so kind of a self-starter when
it comes to that.
In time I grew into roles whereI was mentoring other RBTs and
one of my most recent positionswas training manager at the
(02:58):
company that I was at.
From there, I remember comingin amazing company, amazing
people, but one of thecomplaints that I had was very,
very straightforward told themI'm not seeing a lot of great
(03:18):
training going on.
I think it was my first weekand I asked to kind of chat with
the clinical director.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Well, hold on.
Can you pause there and make anote on that?
I don't want to forget to comeback to that, all right, because
I think it might be importantfor people to understand.
What did you expect when youcame in there?
Maybe you had no expectations,you didn't know, or were you
like?
All right, I'm a new RBT, I'mgoing to come in here and here's
what I'm going to get.
Was there a certain level ofexpectations of what you thought
(03:46):
you would be provided, comparedto what you're about to tell us
that you were provided?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah.
So up until that point myexpectations were not very high,
only because I had already seenhow training had gone in other
companies what we call overlaptrainings, when you jump in with
another RBT and they'reteaching you the client
information and just modeling.
(04:11):
I didn't see a lot of thathappening in other corporations.
So coming into this one, Ireally didn't know what to
expect.
I kind of expected the same andI have to say, like my overlaps
trying to learn about other youknow the clients that I was
going to be working with, theywere not as effective as I would
(04:33):
have hoped.
Now I was very lucky actuallythat I had a phenomenal mentor.
You know I have to give her ashout out.
Chris Molfino is her name.
She actually sat there.
She gave me the rationale foreverything.
I'm really big on rationale Alot of BST, a lot of modeling, a
(04:56):
lot of supervision.
I think I had like some crazy50% supervision or something
really high.
So I was lucky to have that,that mentorship.
But overall I was seeing likethe training itself was not very
effective.
I wasn't seeing a lot of youknow BST.
(05:17):
I wasn't seeing a lot ofsitting down and let's read
these programs and all thethings that we need to be
equipped with in order to comein and these clients.
So you know, I'm kind of directwhen it comes to things like
that, of course, respectfully.
And I did mention like hey, Ithink this could be better, this
(05:40):
could be different, this couldbe different, and you know such
a great leadership team thateventually they gave me the
training manager position.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I kind of worked my way up, helping the current
training manager and thenfinally jumping into the
position myself.
Wait, so at this organizationthen?
Because if we went back anddon't name organizations, but,
like in your career, you hadbeen to other organizations?
Because I see there seems to betwo reasons why this happens.
I mean, if you just look at itthrough a performance lens,
right, they're not, it's eitherI can't.
(06:28):
they don't know what they'resupposed to do with RBTs, which
is always hard for me to believe, you know, or they're not
motivated to do it, they justwant to drop RBTs in there so
they can start getting paidRight and so.
But it seems like yourorganization was like, until you
kind of brought it to theirattention, maybe they thought
things were better than theywere, and then you shone a light
on it and then they said, well,hey, that sounds good, let's
improve.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
In fact, you're doing so well with it.
Let's let's put you in chargein it.
Would that be fair to say?
Yeah, that's pretty fair to say.
I mean, um, it was, uh,definitely much better than
other places that I had been inwell, can you?
Speaker 1 (06:56):
can you?
Because I want to hear, andmaybe it's other places or other
place you're heard of, right,so we're not going to say
they're necessarily the placeyou're at or other place you're
heard of, right, so we're notgonna say they're necessarily
the place you're at or otherplace, right.
But from what you know of, uh,you know what, what?
What has been like the, thenorm, what have you seen that
you know this isn't so great forthe field, this isn't so great
for the rbts.
Can you give me some examplesof, like, some of the standards,
(07:18):
of the low standards thatyou've seen out there?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
yeah, um, for for starters it's um know, once you
walk in with that RBT credential, it's almost like you're
expected to know everythingalready.
I don't need to.
You know, you took your 40 hourcourse.
You come in here, you know whatyou're doing, you know what
this means, you know what thatmeans do the job, and very
(07:41):
little checking in to see likejust how well they can really do
the job, Because differentcompanies that train these RBTs
have different standards of howwell they want them to do this.
I think it's all over the place.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
So, number one, they don't even have most places, or
too often we don't want toovergeneralize, too often we're
not bringing in people and it'snot just RBTs, behavior analysts
and other people, right, wedon't have any measure of
competency.
We don't even know what level.
They are right, so they're likeall right, you took the 40
hours and so you should be ableto do the job, and you and I
both know damn well that 40hours is not even dropping the
(08:20):
bucket of what it requires to dothe job of an RBT Absolutely
not even dropping the bucket ofwhat it requires to do the job
of an RBT?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Absolutely not.
Yeah, so it's a lot of justdropping people in.
And again, this is in generallike just dropping people in
into these sessions.
And here's your client, here'syour tablet.
You know, build report, takeyour data and moving along.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
And when they're struggling, then what happens?
I mean, I'm not talking aboutthe place that you went right
and how you did somethingdifferently, but RBTs are
struggling.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
What is the norm that you've experienced?
From a lot of conversationsI've had with many different
RBTs and I've, you know, builtrapport with dozens and dozens
of RBTs the main thing they sayis that they never really felt
supported.
They never felt like um, youknow, like when asking a
question about a behaviorintervention plan, how to
(09:13):
execute it.
Well, it's written down for you.
You should be able to read itand understand it.
So there was not a lot of umempathizing of you know this may
not be very easily understood.
You know I've heard horrorstories of RBTs getting like
(09:34):
physically injured and the BCBAwas not around.
Just the lack of support andfeeling undervalued is what I
heard from a lot of these RBTsand what do you think is at the
root of that?
Speaker 1 (09:47):
What do you?
You know, if you could, basedon your experience, what you've
seen like, why would a BCBA dothat to the RBT?
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Honestly, I think that it could be just even grad
school courses not being focusedon supervision, just even grad
school courses not being focusedon supervision.
One thing I did love about FITis that you know they put a very
heavy emphasis on supervisionand what you're going to need to
do for your RBTs and how you'regoing to need to support them.
I think that gave me a bigfoundation for how I was
(10:22):
conducting my own RBT trainings.
As an RBT, I was alreadylooking at everything from a
behavior analyst lens, like Iwas already acting as if I were
a BCBA, and that's somethingthat when I was trained by other
people when I was at differentcompanies, I wasn't getting that
.
They were just kind of goingthrough the motions and it was
(10:45):
just, you know, the job didn'tseem to be very reinforcing for
them.
So it's just to me it's BCBAsnot having you know.
And again, I've met some amazingBCBAs.
You know, most recently, allthe BCBAs that I've dealt with
have been absolutely phenomenal.
But in general, I think when Iwould train someone new and I
(11:08):
actually would ask them like youknow, how has your experience
been before coming here?
And they would tell me allthese horror stories and you
know, I barely made mysupervision last month and my
BCBA doesn't respond to myemails or just different things.
That showed that they were justkind of left on their own and I
was finding that I wasreviewing like a lot of basic
(11:33):
principles that you need to comein here.
Yes, you have your credential,but I'm still going to say, you
know, I'm going to reteach itanyways, just to make sure that
you know it.
And it was surprising how manywere like wow, you know, I never
knew that.
Or oh, wait a minute, what isstimulus control?
It's just like little thingslike that.
(11:53):
That was just like, wow, wheredid you come from, you know?
So I think you know the BCBAsout there, some BCBAs out there
just don't have a very strong, Idon't know how to put it.
The skill of being able tosupervise is something that is
(12:14):
not, you know, maybe it was notemphasized in their training.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
I would listen there's there's zero doubt about
that?
I don't.
This is my personal belief.
I'm sure there's some, you knowcons to what I'm saying, but I
see nothing but pros.
I think we should.
I think we should, I thinkeverybody should be trained in
organizational behaviormanagement.
And the reason why is becausewhen you start trying to get
results through the behavior ofothers, you are doing OBM and
(12:40):
that's everything, unless you'reworking one-on-one with a
learner.
But even then, even then,you're probably going to need
let's say, you're in somebody'shome, you're probably going to
need the parent to do somethingmore or less or differently to
help support the generalizationof the behaviors.
So that is like where you shiftto the OBM hat on.
Supervision falls under OBM,it's a performance management
approach, and so I really thinkthat everybody should have this,
(13:04):
and it sounds like you got somegood stuff in terms of I like
that.
You got to put on like yourBCBA hat to think about how
would you manage an RBT, andthat should absolutely be
happening.
I think that all this stuffshould be happening through
simulations and all coursework,and I think that you know FIT
does, you know certainly hassome great instructors there.
I went to school.
(13:25):
There as well, I know some ofthe folks are great people, but
I think in general, alluniversities need to embed some
robust simulations into theirprogramming so when behavior
analysts come out they're readyto perform.
And in my world, in the fightworld, in that part of my life,
our simulations are sparring andyou cannot expect somebody to
(13:49):
hit mitts or hit a bag and thenfight in the real fight.
You need to have simulationsand this is where you can learn
safely and we can do simulationsor analog simulations, but I
mean right now, withgamification or virtual reality,
I mean you could literally bewalking into a classroom and
doing stuff you know.
Gamification or virtual reality, I mean you could literally be
walking to a classroom and doingstuff you know.
But at a minimum we can do somelike performance-based
scenarios where you experiencesome of the consequences, like a
(14:12):
choose your journey thing, youknow and get the feedback and
why.
So you can learn that.
Hey, well, man, I screwed thatup, the parent fired me, you
know, or whatever you know.
There's so many different thingsthat we can do, but our, our
folks are not coming into thefield at any level prepared to
meet the demands, and it's notthat they're not learning on the
field, they're not learningthrough supervision if they've
got a super good supervisor,like you, but that's rare
(14:34):
because most people are notbeing trained well enough to do
it.
So now we kind of are peopleare learning through trial and
error, like I did and I bet youdid in many cases.
So many people I know and Ithink about if, man, if I had
better skill, knowledge andskills because I'd gone through
simulations and I was, you know,understood so many other facets
of what it looks like in thereal world I'd learn how to
(14:56):
consult better I could have madesuch a bigger difference.
And, more important than that,maybe I did some things that
hurt people.
I don't want to hurt people,you know, but I and I was doing
it out of desiring to make apositive impact.
But you know, coming back toyour point, we just have to do a
better job preparing our peoplefor the real world.
So, in including training oursupervisors better so they can,
(15:18):
you know people can have folkslike your supervisor was, you
know, otherwise it's.
We have droves of people notperforming well and they're
leaving.
It's hurting the, it's hurtingour learners and our client base
and hurting the field, so youknow um yeah and you know that,
um, rbt turnover is just oh, therate is just out.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
It's just unbelievable.
You know, like, uh, like arevolving door of rTs and you
know I boil that down toinsufficient training and
insufficient support.
When you can do your job reallywell, when you can walk in
there confident that you'regoing to be helping this learner
(15:58):
, that you're going to be doingeverything right, you're getting
all sorts of you know positivereinforcement from your managers
, your supervisors.
You know that reinforcementfrom your managers and your
supervisors, you know that isreinforcing.
You want to come back and youwant to keep doing that.
But when you're struggling,because you're struggling with
even basic principles, or youknow you weren't taught with
behavioral skills training,where you're actually being
(16:20):
going through that process ofmaking sure that you're fluent
in what you're doing, you getburned out.
That's where the burnout comesfrom, you know.
And then in turn the clientsuffers.
The client's not getting, youknow, quality care that they
require with turnover rates.
(16:41):
You know now the BCBAs have tostart from scratch with a whole
new RBT coming in and they haveto do the process all over and
over and it's just it's kind ofa mess.
You know it's exhausting.
So I'm also sorry for the BCBAs, who really are trying, you
know, they really are trying tosupport their staff but for one
reason or another, that turnoverrate makes them, you know, have
(17:05):
to start over and that burnsthem out as well, you know.
So it's a it's an overallproblem for everyone.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah, I, you know, and, and there just so many.
There are a number of peoplelike CEOs that are, you know,
there there are some that Iwould just say stay away from
those organizations, you know.
But there are some that arelike, really want to make it a
positive difference, but theyjust don't know better.
My colleague Anika and I areworking with somebody one of our
(17:34):
colleagues and friends andclient, christina Morales, who's
local to our area, has, uh, man, she has just embedded so many
organizational behaviormanagement principles into her,
um, uh, into her company, likebuilding them on values from the
ground up and, in her case,like she just she wanted to be
(17:55):
better.
She didn't know how to bebetter and she needed a little
bit of coaching to support herand she took the ball and run
with it.
Right now, she's done someamazing things there, but the
point being that our, our, wehave to practice what we preach
in our field, and that is, wehave to continue to use the
principles of behavior, evenwith our employees when we're in
(18:15):
our leadership position ormanagement position or
supervision or any of thesepositions, and we forget about
it, and I think this is due toour coursework I'm not saying
all coursework, but I think alot of coursework, and I think
this is due to our coursework.
I'm not saying all coursework,but I think a lot of coursework,
because it's so focused at themolecular level, it's so focused
on working with you know people, persons with disabilities that
people forget about using thescience everywhere.
Like to me, you should nevertake your lens off If you're
(18:39):
trying to figure out how tounderstand the world around you.
You know and why people aredoing what they're doing and be
the best for them, and you know,help them.
If that's what your value is,then why would you ever take the
lens off?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Exactly, yeah, and it's kind of, like I mentioned,
like positive reinforcement forRBTs.
One thing that I used to do atone of the companies I worked
with worked at was I would leavelittle sticky notes, you know,
on different RBTs, you knowbinders or their lockers or
something, and it was just somewords of affirmation, it was
(19:15):
just something that you know,like, hey, I know this is hard,
but I know that no one can do itLike you can do it, you know,
and it was not, um, I wasn'ttrying to be like patronizing, I
was being very sincere.
You know, this is one of thethings that we need to do with
our co workers in general is.
You know?
I remember one time I was in aninterview and they asked me,
(19:40):
like, how do you feel aboutworking with others?
And I said, well, how do youfeel about working with others?
And I said, well, we aretrained to build rapport with
our clients.
Right, because the better ourrapport and I don't even like
the word rapport, it's likebuilding connections.
We want to build theseconnections with our clients.
We need to do the same with ourcoworkers.
(20:01):
You know, like, overall, we allneed to be on the same team.
You know, like that wholecliche teamwork, team effort and
all that, but that's the onlyway it's going to work.
So I treated people in a waythat I wanted to make these
connections.
At one of the places I workedfor I had the nickname of mom.
(20:24):
I would hear someone say hey,mom, I need this, or I need help
with this, or I don't get this,and it's just.
I think it's just kind of likemy nurturing nature.
Yeah, so you know, but I thinkoftentimes some corporations
treat RBTs or BTs if they don'thave that credential as numbers.
(20:47):
We need this number to fillthis slot, to fill this time
block, to get this billable hourhere, that we forget that we
have human beings in front of us.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Well, even if they cared about the bottom line,
I've come across my.
I've had enough experienceswith narcissistic leadership,
many years of consulting andworking and stuff.
And even if even if you loveattention, that's what you want
to be as a CEO, or you want tomake money, that's your bottom
line you got to take care ofyour employees, no matter what.
(21:19):
You know what I mean.
If you take care of theiremployees, they're going to take
care of you.
I don't know what could beclearer to me.
I mean, every time youremployee leaves, it costs money.
It's costing, you know, 20% oftheir salary, you know.
So what is that?
What do RVTs make these days?
I don't know, you know, butthat's $5,000, $6,000, $7,000,
$8,000.
It's costing every time theyturn over and it's bankrupting
the organizational memory.
(21:40):
And certainly if you want toprovide good support to the
learners, the clients, that'shurting, so it's going to hurt
the bottom line.
So if you really want toproduce some robust business
results, take care of yourpeople.
Build your system on goodorganizational behavior
management principles, whichmeans you need to know what
people's reinforcers are andyou've got to make sure you're
(22:06):
getting value-added behavior intouch with positive
reinforcement.
Your whole system should bedesigned on values from the
ground up.
It should be deliberatelydesigned to deliver positive
reinforcement for value-addedbehavior period.
All the principles are the same.
We just chain performancetogether to produce some sort of
end result in theseorganizations.
But they just don't see it.
They see the quick fix, not thequick win.
They see I want to make thequick buck, I want to make the
(22:26):
quick buck, I want to do this,you know.
And now like shit rollsdownhill, you know.
So they're putting pressure onthe director, the director's
putting pressure on the BCBA.
The BCBA has gotten out toomany clients and everybody's
trying to bill and there's likeman, it's just like we just have
to be better.
We just have to be better.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Absolutely, and you know, speaking of reinforcement
with rbt's like, by the way,like the the rate for an rbt
I've seen anywhere from 13 to 27an hour has been, which I can.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
I don't understand this because I know some very
legit people, right, I know,like, and it's to me, I've gone
to seeing these organizationswhere, uh, I like they're giving
the, they're giving the RBTsthe most they can get, right,
and I said, you know what, juststick with it, because if they
leave because the grass isgreener, there's no way it's
greener over there becausethere's something going on there
.
I'm not going to say it's fraud.
(23:17):
I'm not not going to say it'sfraud.
Something is being sacrificedto give that differential.
You know what I thatdifferential?
You know I mean like and so, ofcourse, if you're an rbt, like,
why you're not going to want tomake 15, 17, 20 bucks an hour.
We can go down the street, make27 an hour, but it at what is
the cost of that?
Where is that money coming from?
Speaker 2 (23:37):
I don't understand it that's what I don't understand
either.
And, um, you know, I kind of Iwas thinking about this.
Um, you know, last organizationthat I left I was trying to
find, like, how does thisproblem get solved?
Because one of the issues I wasseeing was RBTs coming in and
they were just venting like I'mnot going to make rent, I'm not
(23:59):
going to be able to pay my rent,and it was just like
heartbreaking because you know,you have those client
cancellations.
When you have the clientcancellations that RBT doesn't
have the work, they don't getpaid, they're just sitting at
home just like wondering, likedo I go work at the grocery
store for two dollars more andnot have to deal with this?
(24:21):
At least it's like a consistentfull time job.
So that's where I'm actuallystuck, polly, like how do we
solve this problem?
Like I, you know, whenever Ihave any kind of feedback about
something that I see that is notright or it's, you know, could
be better, before I approach youwith that feedback, I'm going
(24:42):
to have a whole list ofsolutions.
You know, I came to traininglike I had PowerPoints with
citations.
It almost looked like a gradschool homework assignment, you
know, because I wanted to showyou know why this is going to
work, why doing it different isgoing to be beneficial to
(25:02):
everyone, and just giving thatrationale and giving that
solution.
So I'm very solution based whenit comes to things.
This in particular, I was stuck.
I'm like how does this getfixed?
You know, do you talk toparents about attendance, Do you
?
You know, I just I don't know,and that's something that, like,
I'm actively going to work onfinding out like what would be a
(25:26):
rational solution to thisproblem.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
I think there are contingencies that can be put in
place.
I just don't remember what theywere because I was a COO at a
company and we had some of thoseissues.
But, like you know, there'slike performance-based pay,
right.
So you know, of course you havea minimum amount of hours that
they need to serve to make theirsalary, you know.
And then you know you have somebonuses for making you know X
(25:52):
amount of hours.
But you also have contingenciesfor the parents that way too,
where they can save money forshowing up you know X amount of
times, or whatever.
You know.
So we got to.
You know, figure out whatpeople's reinforcers are.
And there was.
So you gotta, we gotta.
You know, figure out whatpeople's reinforcers are.
And there's also things likehey, if you're not going to be
able to make it this much, thenwe're going.
There's somebody else that'swaiting in line.
You know, we want to be able tomake sure that we have to stay
(26:12):
solvent.
We want to make sure that weare able to treat the consumers.
So you know, like, if you, ifyou know you either still have
to pay, or you know there's a,there's a minimum amount of pay
for not coming you, you knowthat's all agreed up up front
and like listen, if you'reproviding good service, they're
not going to want to miss forthe most part you know what I
mean Especially if they're goingto lose their spot or something
along those lines.
So I don't know.
(26:33):
It's been a while since I'vebeen in that part of it, but I
think there are definitelythings that that can occur up
front with these contingencies.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Yeah, yeah, that that , yeah, yeah that.
Um, when you have parents,though, like don't that, don't
pay out of pocket, I think, um,you know, insurance covers
everything, then that becomes uh, you know, they're not really
getting hit in the pockets, foryou know, he said, you're still
gonna have to pay even if youdon't show up.
Um, so that's something thatyou know.
I don't know how they're notgonna want to lose their.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Yeah, I'm for those.
Maybe it's like they don't wantto lose their place.
You know not going to want tolose their.
Yeah, I'm thinking for those.
Maybe it's like they don't wantto lose their place.
You know they don't want to losethe support, you know, and we
explain like, yeah, you know,it's kind of like an agreement
up front, like we have employeesand we have to stay solvent,
you know.
So there's always going to besomething.
But I think if we can solve,like you know, 80% of those
problems that are just going tobe like and I guess we stick to
(27:24):
the policy.
But I mean, it is a big issue.
I think some companies havedone better with it than others.
I would love to get somebody inthere and talk about the good
program that they've had Again.
It's been so long since I'vethought about that kind of stuff
so I don't want to do billingand everything.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah and no go ahead.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
So do you think so, with those RBTs that are unable
to make the bills?
So, because we were coming backto the $13 versus $27 an hour,
I think, man, I think all RBTsshould be making $27 an hour.
I think it would be wonderfulto pay their.
It's a challenging job.
They are on the front line andtaking these beatings, some
figuratively and literallysometimes, which is, people have
(28:04):
no idea how challenging it canbe with some of these learners,
especially if they have physicalaggression or self-injurious
behavior.
It's very challenging for them.
So I mean, if they're notmaking the money, they're not
getting the hours, they're likescrew this, I'm going to leave
and I'm going to go to, like yousaid, I'm going to go to the
grocery store, I'm going to geta different job somewhere else,
(28:27):
where becoming an Rbt should bea path to becoming a bcba.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
you know we should be trying to lift them up and grow
them within the company, don'tyou think?
Yeah, I agree.
And um, I often ask that like,uh, when I would train an rbt
and ask like, hey, you knowwhat's, what's your end goal
here?
Are you gonna go into being abcba, especially the ones that
have been doing it for likethree, four years?
You, you know, kind of like meand the response I usually got
(28:52):
was like I don't think I couldhandle.
You know BCBA.
And I explained to them well,you know, actually being a BCBA
is probably easier than being anRVT, because someone else is
going to be doing that directcare and you can provide that
support to them.
And it almost seems like itturns them away from the field.
And I've seen people who finishgrad school for ABA and then
(29:14):
suddenly decide they want to gointo a completely different
field, like finance or something.
And this is not related to ABA,because it just left such a
sour taste in their mouth fromthe experience and it's just I
don't know.
I think it really starts withyou know one thing that my
(29:35):
mentor used to do all the timeshe would always check on me,
but she wasn't checking in on melike are you doing your work,
okay, are you understanding this?
She would check on me, like areyou doing your work, okay, are
you understanding this?
She would check on me, like howare you doing stuff?
How are you doing?
You know, I don't want you toburn out.
(29:56):
I'm here if you want to talkabout something unrelated to
work.
Like you know, like she wasalways willing to provide that
support.
That was, you know, just, you'remore than an RBT implementing
these interventions that I wrote, you know.
So to me that was veryimportant and made me want to
(30:17):
learn more from her.
And I said to myself you know,when I hire RBT's, if I get to
that point, I'm going to makesure that I do the same thing.
You know, like remind them thatthis is very difficult work, uh
, but you're a very valuablepart of this work.
Like without you as an RBT,like this can't be done.
(30:39):
You know there are BCBAs whojust go and do direct therapy
and that's it.
But if you're going to beworking for another company,
you're going to have RBTs.
And so I learned through myjourney as an RBT and as a
training manager and, just youknow, a student analyst, what to
do and what not to do, butdefinitely one of the things to
(31:03):
do is to support these RBTs, youknow, even at an emotional
level, because it's a veryemotionally taxing job.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Well, I mean, first of all, your learning curve is
like steep, you know, given howlong you've been in the field,
you certainly have, you know,learned and done an awful lot in
such a short amount of time,but it's a testament to your
values.
My guess is, you know, whateverfield you went into, you would
do something similar, because itseems like you really care
(31:33):
about people, and I respect that.
I mean the fact that that BCBAcame to you and I, you know,
shout out to her.
Was that the one from thebeginning that you mentioned?
That was mentioned.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, chris, my man.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Yeah, beginning that you mentioned, that was yeah,
yeah, yeah, chris, my yeah,chris.
Uh, helping you to feel safeand saying how are you doing?
I love that.
Like, why don't we?
It should happen so much more?
Uh, you know, in in checking in, um, one of the big things that
I talk about and we talk aboutin our trainings, uh, in my
books, is reciprocal feedback.
Um, you know, we give feedbackto help people to grow, but we
(32:07):
also have to look at theirperformance as feedback for us,
right?
So if they're not performing tosome standard, what do I need
to do more, less or differently?
Right?
If that's the person I'msupporting, but also checking in
with them and getting feedback,how am I doing for you, you
know?
is there something I can do?
How can I be better for you?
And I think if people humbledthemselves like that and used
that and just checked in withpeople, I mean, look at what it
(32:28):
did for you.
It made you feel safe I knowit's like psychological safety.
It made you trust them.
It made you feel like you knowyou probably could speak to her
and let her know what you'restruggling with.
If she helped you a little bit,you know she gave you some
information that was importantto you, that made your job
easier, that helped you toproduce some sort of valued
outcomes.
Man, that's positivereinforcement.
She's pairing herself as apositive reinforcer.
That's the kind of thing weneed, because it's building your
(32:49):
skills, it's building yourretention, you know.
It's creating more knowledgeand skills in you.
So you can help, you know,probably help her, help the RBTs
and et cetera, et cetera.
I mean it just has a largeripple effect and I think it's a
beautiful thing, large rippleeffect, and I think it's a
beautiful thing.
I would like to know whatschool she came from and how.
How did she get to be that way?
Or is it just that we just havesome people that have such
(33:10):
strong values that they figureit out.
What do you?
What do you think it was?
Speaker 2 (33:14):
You know that's actually a good question.
I don't remember.
I know she has a background incounseling, so there you go.
There you go Right.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
There you go.
Well, I think that we do in our.
I did a podcast earlier withPat Freiman and we were talking
about this and I think and thisis just my perspective, but I
think for a long time as a field, because what he was saying was
that, of all fields, everybodyelse, all the other fields
(33:46):
engineering, all differentsciences, astrophysics you know
they speak to the public in away that makes it easier for
them to understand, but I feellike we have not focused on that
, not for a long time.
I think, probably maybe overthe last decade.
We're starting to see a shiftfinally, and for a long time we
didn't decade there's we'restarting to see a shift finally,
(34:06):
and it for a long time wedidn't.
But I wonder if we didn't do itpurposely, because we were
trying to keep our like showthat we're a legitimate field,
so we need to speak sciencey, sowe seem like real scientists,
something like that.
I don't know.
I wrote about this a while back.
I'll drop the article and um alink to the article.
I think I shared it with youyou did share with me.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
With me, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yeah, and I think that I just often wonder about
that because I feel we should beso much better in that area,
but I think it needs to beprogrammed into our coursework,
because it's like we'reseparating the humanism from the
science and I think that thatwe've been searching for a heart
(34:46):
, but I think we've had theheart.
Like the Tin man, the Wizard ofOz, we've had the heart the
whole time.
It's the science.
What could be morecompassionate than effectively
applying the science to helppeople, to help themselves and
help others?
I mean, honestly, gosh, whatcould be better than that?
Because it's as efficient andeffective as we could be if we
use science.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah, and I think in our training, like it's drilled
into our heads that we have tobe very objective.
You know, observable behaviorand along the lines it just
becomes so technical and it just, you know, some of the mock
exams I was looking at and it'slike this is kind of how we were
(35:28):
wired to have all thistechnical language and then it
becomes very hard to kind ofseparate that.
You know, people have a problemlike even communicating with
stakeholders and like hey, don'tuse negative reinforcement,
positive reinforcement, mandingtechnique, don't use those words
.
You know, like trying to teachRBTs, don't do that, because
(35:51):
even RBTs have that problem.
You know, speaking in thistechnical jargon.
So it definitely is a problem.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
It absolutely is.
I think that part of coursework.
I think we should be able totake an event right, just an
average event that's describedin average words, and I think we
should be able to explain itbehavior analytically and then
explain it to lay person rightwhat it means behaviorally.
So you should be able to takethat and explain it in both ways
.
And I think that I don't thinka lot of people can do that.
(36:17):
I think that they might be, youknow, like.
I think they have to be able totake these concepts and speak
two languages with them, one tothe scientist and one to the
non-scientist.
And I think it's reallyimportant and mostly we have to
build that non-scientistlanguage because we have to
communicate with our consumers,we have to disseminate the
science more and help people tounderstand.
(36:39):
But sometimes I wonder is itthat we don't understand it well
enough and that's why we're notdoing it, especially with some
of the things I see out thereand people, even in our own
field, hating on the science.
Like, how could you hate on thescience?
It's just a science.
There's nothing wrong with thescience.
People have misapplied it, nodoubt about it.
Let's get to the root cause ofthat, but like don't hate the
science right, I agree it is.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
I want to go back for a second to what you mentioned
about feedback from like rbts.
I do remember one thing thatwas mentioned from several
people that I had trained uh,how was this?
You know, I would ask, how wasthe support where you came from?
And they would mention, likehow some bcbas would have, like,
(37:23):
uh, social validity surveys andthey would do these check-ins
and have them fill them out andthey would be honest in them.
Like you know, I feel like Icould meet, I could use more
training on this BIP.
I feel like I need support withthis, and they would be giving
that information and the BCBAswould do absolutely nothing with
(37:44):
it.
Like it was just kind of likefor show you know, so that was
one thing.
Is it was just kind of like forshow you know, so that was one
thing.
Is you know, as BCBAs, when I'mfinally passing the exam and
take this exam as a BCBA?
Like that's one thing.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Like making sure that we are following through when
we get this feedback, that's asystems error because that data
so there should be, that RBTdata should be reporting out to
BCBA.
To their coach I'm saying thisis what I need and the BCBA
(38:22):
should be reporting out thatI've responded to my RBTs and
that data should be reported outright and there should be a
match.
Rbts said I need help.
Bcba say they're giving helpright, but when there's no
contingency in place there,right, that's not part of the
scorecard, it's not somethingthat's looked at Again.
People are going to eithertheir values are going to drive
them and if their values aren'tstrong enough, it's going to be.
(38:44):
You know how can I do?
Just enough to get by?
You know and get paid.
You know, and then there's amix in there because you know
when things get too difficult,you know you're going to get
escape motivated behavior.
So.
But I think with a good systemit keeps behavior and
performance in a very clean andefficient line and that kind of
(39:05):
stuff should not be happening,right, because it can be just a
show.
And then you know we havecompanies marketing it.
Well, we check in with ourpeople, you know all the time.
Okay, what are you doing withthat data?
You know what does that mean.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Right, and you had mentioned in one of our previous
conversations, like how youknow, we talked about behavior
chains, and then we have these,the RBT, and then it goes to the
BCBA and then the clinicaldirector and then to, you know,
the CEO or whatever.
Like can you?
Can you explain that again?
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Oh you, oh sure, yeah .
So with any organization, youwant to start with the result,
right, the end in mind.
So let's say, retention is anissue, okay.
And then you want to improvethat retention.
So we'll say, well, what needsto happen?
Well, you've already keyed inon a couple of those things,
like well, rbts would probablystay if they knew better.
Right, if they knew better,they would do better.
So we want RBTs to be followingthe plan effectively, following
(39:56):
the plan, doing these things sothey can promote socially valid
outcomes.
We can help the learner learn,right, because that feels good.
Rbts want to feel that they'redoing something.
They want to feel they want tosee that they're making a change
with the learners.
That feels really good for them, right.
And of course, they're gettingpaid, et cetera, right.
(40:17):
So there's the differentreinforcers.
Now, if we want the RBTs to beable to do that, well, what's
the BCBA need to doed in theplan?
Training is about the skillacquisition.
Coaching is about thegeneralization of those learned
skills into the nationalenvironment.
Okay, they're wonderful.
So if we want that to happen uh, you know, and we, of course we
(40:38):
want the bcba to be checking inwith rbt and using their
performance as a measure of them, feedback for them.
What do they need to do more orless so differently if we want
that to happen?
Well, what do we need thedirector to do?
Well, we need the director tobe coaching the BCBAs.
We need the BCBAs to bereporting out what kind of
support they've given the RBTs,and they need to be looking at
the RBT data.
And they need to be reinforcingthe BCBAs for doing it right,
(41:01):
and et cetera.
So there's got to be metricsfor that and we got to chain
that all the way to top the.
What does the CEO need to do?
Well, the CEO needs to makesure that all these principles
are grounded in the values.
They need to be sharing datawith everybody.
They need to be giving feedbackacross the organization.
They got to be looking at theaggregate data at the executive
level, but that data needs to bebroken down to each level, so
(41:22):
each person has a piece of thepie to look at.
Right, because that databecomes feedback for them how
well are my RPTs performing?
Right For the director, howwell are my BCBAs performing?
Or the supervisor?
Whoever it is right and up thechain.
So everybody has this positiveaccountability Each person
should be.
Each person has a result thatthey're trying to produce.
(41:43):
Are they producing that result?
And if they're not producingthat result, why?
And if a lot of people are notproducing the result, then you
really have a systems issue.
But even if only one person'snot resulting, producing that
result, we, it's not a we can'tblame.
Blaming gets us absolutelynowhere.
It does the opposite, makesthings worse.
(42:03):
We have to keep on a behavioranalytic lens and we have to do
some sort of performancediagnostics.
You know, is it can't do ordon't do, you know, if they
can't do, we got to give themthe skills and it's not we don't
have to.
We keep it simple.
Can you tell me what you'resupposed to do?
Can you show me what you'resupposed to do?
Can you do it quickly?
Boom, that's a wrap, you know?
Um, if it's a, if it's a, don'tdo.
(42:26):
And, I think, got some otherfactors.
And this is where, whereas, ifwe are in a position of managing
somebody else's performance,and from whatever level, we have
to reflect in the mirror, right, or how often are we observing?
Are we giving feedback?
What kind of feedback are wegiving right?
Are we correcting more thanwe're reinforcing?
Are we helping people see theyou know the outcome of their
behaviors.
Do they value those outcomes?
(42:46):
If they don't value those andwe say, well, you know, they
just don't value it.
Well, I believe good leadership, or good leading, actually is
an MO.
Right, they create value forthings.
(43:15):
No-transcript all three thingsat once.
Right, they can barely remembertwo.
Usually I focus on just onething.
Right, just throw the jab, justturn the knuckle over.
Turn the knuckle over right,and then we do the pivot, the
back foot.
But anyways, the point beingthat at each level we have to
figure out, you know, ifsomebody's not performing to a
(43:36):
standard which we need to know,what that standard is.
Right, coming back to yourpoint at the beginning, we don't
even know how competent peopleare and we need to use their own
performance as their ownbaseline and build from there.
But we don't have any of thatdata because too often we're not
using the principles ofbehavior within the organization
.
I'm not going to, I can't, Idon't want to overgeneralize
that, because I know there areplaces like Christina's place
(43:57):
that are doing a piece of thepuzzle behavior analysis in Vero
, or Liquid Park near my areashe's super and there's other
organizations out there that aredoing the right thing, but I
would love to go around.
Wouldn't it be cool to goaround and just find these
organizations and shine a?
Speaker 2 (44:16):
light on them and do videos on them and write
articles on them or whatever.
Wouldn't that be cool?
That would be amazing.
And the first time youexplained all this to me, like I
completely understood, and Ijust I, I think I just want
everyone else to hear it becauseit's just, it seems so simple.
You know, like it's a lot ofresponse effort, but it's
definitely what should behappening in all these
organizations and really it'sjust like we said at the
(44:39):
beginning, I don't know why, youknow, everyone is not taking on
OBM principles and, you know,just implementing these within
their own companies and it'sjust it just kind of mind
blowing, Like we should knowbetter.
You know this is.
We have the solution at hand,it's just a matter of
implementing it.
We do.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
I again I'm going to come back to, and I think it's
the same thing we agree on.
I think that I mean, I didn'teven know what organizational
behavior management was when.
I came out, I knew that I hadsaid to somebody that was
working at a school that wasstruggling, and I said you know
there was school-wide positivebehavior support.
Have you ever heard of that?
Yeah, I have.
So I said to a colleague like Ikind of think we need positive
(45:22):
behavior supports for the adultsbecause you know, if we're
going to bring out the best inthe students, we have to bring
out the best in adults.
And I don't see any of theadults doing the things that
they were trained in inrelationship to this.
And they said there issomething like that.
It's called organizationalbehavior management.
That's why they, when theyhanded me the book by opera
daniels called bring out thebest in people, which changed my
life, and it's not thatanything that was profound in it
(45:42):
.
I mean, thank god aubrey wrotethis stuff, but what he did was
state the obvious.
It's the same principles thatwe all know.
Right, that's why this is.
But this whole behavior myopia.
We forget about using theprinciples when we're working
with other adults.
For some odd reason we justwant to play people man and cuss
at them or cuss in our head orcall them lazy or do all this
stuff.
And I've done it, believe me.
(46:02):
I still have to check myselfagainst it, you know, because
it's we all have our own historybut know we do have the tools
to be better.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Absolutely.
It's just a matter of using it.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
So, um, all right, so we've got about 10 minutes or
so ish left.
Um, I'm wondering in a, in a,in a perfect world, right, let's
say that Christina had uh, uh,uh, uh, let me see, hold on,
lord have mercy.
I just said the wrong name.
I wasn't talking aboutChristina Morales.
(46:37):
I'm sorry about that.
I screw up names all the time.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
My middle name is Christine.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Oh, okay, Well that can work right, all right.
Well, christina Morales, youknow I love you, girl.
You're on my mind.
When I was thinking about thatstuff, we were just talking
about Stephanie, right?
So, stephanie, I know whatChristina would say if she could
wave a magic wand.
But, stephanie, if Stephaniecould wave a magic wand, based
on what's your knowledge andagain, I recognize that you are
relatively new to the field, but, like man, you've making leaps
(47:05):
and bounds.
You know, especially I knowsome of the stuff from when we
spoke offline but what are justlike three things that you wish
you could change right now justto make it better for RBTs let's
say it was your organizationwhen they come in.
Here's what you're definitelygoing to do.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
Oh yeah, definitely some hardcore training,
regardless of how long you'vebeen in the field, whether you
just got your RBT or you had itfor five, six years, um, coming
in like I feel all RBT should betreated as if they know nothing
and it's you know.
That's.
One thing that I would alwayssay is like I am not trying to
(47:41):
insult your intelligence, you'reprobably going to hear me
retraining you on things thatyou're going to look at me funny
Cause it's very basic stuff.
Um, and when I'm guessing, whenyou're retraining them, it's
that you're going to look at mefunny because it's very basic
stuff.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
And I'm guessing, when you're retraining them,
it's also you're assessing theircompetency, because you don't
want to do overkill withsomething, but you give them
training.
Okay, you got that Cool, let'smove on to the next.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
Yeah.
So then, just making sure thatthey have that solid training,
definitely incorporating BSD inthat, making sure that they're
comfortable and they're fluentin their skills.
So number one is just thatsolid training.
Number two is remembering thatthey are human beings.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
You know you have.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
You have to give them that emotional support.
I know we have ethics rulesthat we can't, like you have
these dual relationships.
I'm not taking.
I'm not saying like take themout to dinner and just give them
that support.
We recognize precursorbehaviors in our learners, right
when we know that a certainbehavior is coming and we're
looking for that and we want tostop it before it gets to that,
(48:45):
you know, to the behavior wedon't want to see.
Same applies to our RBTs.
You can see some precursorbehaviors when they're
struggling when they're gettingready to leave when they're
getting ready to all the samestuff.
Yeah.
So it's like catch thoseprecursors before your RBT burns
(49:07):
out.
And third is just that ongoingsupervision, you know, making
sure that you are checking infrequently.
You are, you know, reteachingskills and it's just an ever go,
it's, it's an ongoing process.
It should just keep happening.
It's not something that, oh,she's really great.
I know you do this.
(49:28):
Well, I'll see you in two weeksor I'll see you in three weeks,
especially those who are, youknow, doing those in home
sessions where DCBAs are notusually present.
So to me I mean those threethings.
And you know, for biggerorganizations, having someone
dedicated to you know trainingconsistently, constantly, like
(49:53):
that, should be the only jobthey have.
You know, nothing else but thetraining.
And you know, I think with thatin place, things could start to
change.
You know, of course it's notgoing to make the company
perfect.
There's always going to be amillion and one different
problems.
But pertaining to RBTs, I thinkthat you know that's kind of my
(50:14):
goal down the line.
This is how I'm going to treatit.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Yeah, good, I love that.
And I think it's better toreplace the word training with
professional development,because in professional
development, we could saytraining and coaching.
Training is about skillacquisition, coaching is about
supporting the generalization ofthose learned skills in the
natural environment.
Right, we switch frominstructing people what they
need to do to asking them whatare they doing and what impact
they're having.
Essentially, you know.
(50:38):
But to your point, yeah, we needto have somebody that's
dedicated to professionaldevelopment, making sure that
these folks can do well, and Ithink we need to check in on
them regularly.
To your point and respond to it, there should be like on Fiverr
I don't know if I'm saying itright Fiverr, fiverr, do you
know the contracting thing?
I have some of my editing workdone from there.
(50:59):
Anyways, I'll leave feedbackfor somebody, but then I get a
private email from them sayinglike, hey, this is just between
us.
How do you think that went withthat contractor?
I just think, man, we need todo more checks and balances
within organizations, but weshould never, ever, ever, ever
use that data to punish peopleever.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Or people find a baseline right.
But I think it just createspositive accountability.
We should use it as much aspossible to positively reinforce
right.
So if we're shaping more well,we set we set sub goals and
accomplishments.
Then that data can be used toshow people like you're moving
in the right direction.
Look, you're doing this.
Your behavior is getting betterin this area.
Check out the results you'reproducing, you know.
I think in the end people wantto.
They want to know that they'vedone a good job.
(51:44):
At the end of the day, you knowa lot don't, because they're
not even sure what results theyshould be producing.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Yeah, every time I've seen any like punishing
contingencies put in place tocorrect behavior with RBT, it
backfires, it absolutelybackfires, and it places the
blame on the RBT where you knowthat's not where the that's not
where you should be looking.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
You know like Look in the mirror, the PDC, that's
what they need to look.
The performance diagnosticchecklist very simple.
Start there before you startgiving them any corrective
feedback.
Have you, have you created anenvironment where they could be
successful?
If you've done all that stuffokay and you've provided
reasonable support and you knowwe could define what that means,
then I think, okay, let's havea chat, then it's time for, like
(52:28):
a tough talk, because thatneeds to happen sometimes.
But let's not do that until wehave that kind of environment.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Absolutely, and also making sure, like reinforcers
are actually reinforcing.
You know, like a $5 Starbucksgift card is not necessarily
going to be reinforcing tosomeone.
I think what I've found to bemost reinforcing to to RBTs is
just that positive feedback,that genuine you are doing a
(52:55):
great job and that's not to say,like, you know, you can't tell
them they're not doing somethingcorrectly.
You know, when they're notdoing something correctly,
approach it like, hey, this iswhat we're going to do different
.
This is, you know, butreinforcers, you know, those
little gift cards or it's just,it just does not work.
Speaker 1 (53:14):
Now, if you're relying on that kind of stuff,
that's like any schools thatI've gone into and they have a
token economy, right, and I lookin the hallways they're yelling
at kids, they're giving tokens.
I'm like, you know, let's try afriggin.
Here's an intervention, let'scall it, just be fucking nice,
use my language, right, but canwe just start by like smiling at
the kids and doing that stuff,the tokens, all the gifts, that
should be just like, hey, thisis literally a token of my
(53:37):
appreciation.
You deserve much more than this.
But I think that when peoplefeel valued in an organization,
right, if you have that kind ofculture, people come for the
money but they stay for theculture.
I mean, that's literally theone of the discussions that,
speaking of christina, uh, thatwe had with her, with her
organization, um, that and thatis true.
But I've actually seen peopleleave and come back, you know,
(54:01):
because you know you kind ofwant to get that 20 an hour
thing.
Then you're like wait a secondyou know I don't want to be
miserable, and am I doing thingsthat are?
And I'm not saying thosecompanies are doing something
unethical.
I'm not saying they're not.
I don't want to be miserable,and am I doing things that are?
And I'm not saying thosecompanies are doing something
unethical.
I'm not saying they're not.
I don't know.
I just don't understand howit's happening.
But anyways, I think you knowpeople want to feel valued.
They want to feel like they'redoing a good job.
At the end, you know mostpeople aren't leaving for the
(54:21):
money that we leaving because ofbad leadership, whatever role
that's at.
I think you know bad systems,bad leadership it could be good
people I'm not saying they'renot good people but there's a
system there that's not justhelping people, you know, be as
successful as they can be andget in touch with their
reinforcers.
End of story.
Speaker 2 (54:38):
Absolutely, and that's the key right there
feeling valued.
You know, I've seen RBTs comingto me and telling me like, if
you need help with training, ifyou need help with this, I would
love to do that and, oh my gosh, I jumped on that so fast.
Speaker 1 (54:54):
Well, that's a measure of your leadership,
though.
When people come to you and askyou want to volunteer, that's
want to do behavior right, asopposed to have to do behavior
when you hear people saying,well, I don't want to do that,
it's not my job.
That's really great stuff.
That's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (55:07):
That was like my reinforcer, you know, like
seeing people coming in andcreating a team where they would
you know these are thedesignated people.
Hey, if anyone else wants to dothis, let me know.
And I would have people comingin and saying, hey, I want to be
a part of this, I want to be apart of this training.
So you had, like, lead trainers, you know that were helping me
(55:29):
out, and it was just like itjust makes everything easier,
not just for me but for them.
The new RBT is coming in andfor the learners and everything.
So, yeah, feeling valued and,you know, playing up on people's
strengths, recognize thosestrengths.
You do really good when you'resitting down and doing DTT with
your learner.
Hey, do you mind if I bringthis person to watch you for 30
(55:52):
minutes?
Speaker 1 (55:52):
Huge huge reinforcer.
Or even saying like I noticedthat kid's behaving so well.
What did you do?
That's great.
Speaker 2 (55:59):
Absolutely so.
It was just a lot ofreinforcing those good behaviors
from the RBTs and that was goodenough to keep them going.
Didn't need a you know fivedollar gift card.
They didn't need this.
It was just feeling valued fortheir that's at the core of it.
Speaker 1 (56:16):
Man, if you live, if you live down here, I would so
try to plug you into christina'sorganization.
You'd be a perfect fit theresounds awesome yeah yeah, it
sounds like a match made inheaven.
Well, listen, we're up at theend of this hour here, steph,
and it's been a fun chat.
I appreciate you coming on tochat with me, and when are you
sitting for your certification,by the way?
Speaker 2 (56:39):
Very soon.
Speaker 1 (56:40):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (56:41):
You know, I put in my application.
I actually prolonged putting inmy application for way too long
.
I had a lot of things going onand finally I was like, okay,
let me just put in thisapplication.
I was just talking to a friendof mine who just did the same
thing.
We've been sitting on it for solong, so I'm really just
waiting on the board right nowto get back.
Speaker 1 (57:01):
All right.
Well, you're lucky At leastwhen you take the test now.
You don't have to wait for likethree months yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:05):
Oh man oh yeah, it was.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
I think when I did it it might have been six months,
I don't remember it was a while.
But I remember also being atthe local, the state conference
down here, faba, and you knowsome people running up and down
the hallway.
They pass, and then you'd seesomebody over the corner like
crying you know it's sad, nomatter what you know.
It's just repetition.
Some people say they're notgood test takers.
I'm like no, that's not it.
You're not a good test prepperbecause if you prep well enough
(57:30):
and you do like small chunks,over time distributed we talked
about this a little bit yeah,you'll do fine, and if you don't
do fine just means you justneed to keep doing.
Speaker 2 (57:38):
That's all just repetition there you go and, um,
you know, thank you for givingme the platform, because this is
, this is really a passionatesubject for me, you know,
passionate, a passionate topic.
And it'll be interesting, onceI'm I'm a credentialed BCBA, to
come back and see like is myperspective different, you know,
(57:58):
like once I have thatcredential and I'm actually, you
know, Don't lose thisperspective.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
I don't think it's going to be different.
Speaker 2 (58:04):
I hope not.
Speaker 1 (58:06):
Everything you're saying is right on.
It's not.
You know, certainly, if youbecome a CEO, there are a lot of
other things that you have tothink about, but your
perspective is still right onspot.
You know, I mean, that's righton point.
So all right.
Well, when you do get yourbehavior analyst, certification,
make sure you give me a shout.
You know, and you know,eventually, when you own your
own company, we'll get you backon here, maybe before that, when
(58:29):
you're in your supervisor role,and we'll see how it evolves
from you, how you're respectable.
We'll pull out this podcast andyou can compare notes.
How about that?
Speaker 2 (58:37):
That sounds perfect, thank you.
Speaker 1 (58:39):
If somebody wanted to reach out to you?
What's the best ways?
Your email, or do you just wantthem to contact you on LinkedIn
?
I can drop this in the shownotes.
Speaker 2 (58:48):
LinkedIn and probably Instagram are probably my two
main ones right now.
Speaker 1 (58:53):
Okay, I'll link those both to the show notes.
So well, it's been a pleasureand I look forward to chatting
with you more.
Speaker 2 (59:01):
Sounds good, paulie.
Thank you, bye-bye.
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