How can behavior analysts build better relationships and avoid burning out? In this episode, Dr. Monica Gilbert and I dig into the game-changing power of Motivational Interviewing (MI) in behavior analysis. Monica’s journey—from working with people battling substance use to bringing MI into her ABA practice—shows just how powerful reflective listening and open-ended questions can be. Not only do they cut down on client dropouts, but they also help build genuine connections. We’ll share real-life stories and practical tips on using these tools to boost engagement and create real, lasting change—without the burnout.
We also dive deep into what makes MI tick and how it’s different from the usual solution-focused methods. One key takeaway? Getting parents and other stakeholders involved in problem-solving makes a world of difference when it comes to creating lasting, meaningful change. It’s not just about techniques; it’s about having patience, empathy, and adjusting our mindset when working with different people—whether it’s parents, teachers, or anyone else. We even tackle the ethical side of blending ABA with MI, focusing on aligning with clients’ goals and staying transparent. Trust me, this conversation is all about building stronger connections, staying true to your values, and avoiding the exhaustion that comes with the grind.
If you are interested in learning more about Motivational Interviewing, check out Motivational Interviewing: Getting Educator Buy-In. Anika Costa, Matt Cicoria, and I spent a year researching, designing, and producing this course to make it as engaging and meaningful as possible. If you want to begin your journey toward becoming fluent in MI techniques, enroll in our course today!
Pick up a copy of the #1 bestseller: Adaptive Intelligence: The Evolution of Emotional Intelligence Through the Proven Power of Behavior Science
The Behavioral Toolbox equips those charged with supporting behavior change in schools with practical applications of the science of human behavior for making a positive difference in the workplace. In this case, the classroom and school!
Be sure to subscribe to Dr. Paulie's Heart & Science YouTube channel for a variety of content related to behavior science and bringing out the best in yourself and others.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Thoughts and Rants of a Behavior
Scientist show hosted by WallStreet Journal and USA Today.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
best-selling author, Dr Pauly.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Okay, welcome back to Thoughts and Rants of a
Behavior Scientist podcast.
I'm your host, Dr Pauly, andI'm here with Dr Monica Gilbert.
How are you doing today, Monica?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I'm doing well.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (00:25):
I'm good, you know, just staying busy, just
constantly busy, it feels like,and it's good busy because I'm
living my values.
I love the work that I do.
I love disseminating thescience of human behavior to
help people, to help themselvesand others, as I know that you
do as well.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
You're living your best life.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I think so for the most part.
It's tiring.
I didn't realize living my bestlife would be so exhausting.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, same, here I get it.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Now, monica and I.
I've seen her in the behaviorworld for a long time and we ran
across each other at the latestABAI conference, got to meet
her, I got to meet her husband.
We had a brief chat and wethought you know what we should
do some sort of collaboration.
Monica has been.
(01:11):
You know, she owns her owncompany.
She's an adjunct professor.
She's done a bunch of stuff.
I'll make sure I link her bioin there.
But, like, from my perspective,she's the first person that I
saw bringing motivationalinterviewing to the world of
behavior analysis and I loved it.
Now, in my mental healthbackground I had been exposed to
it.
I always liked the concept ofit.
(01:36):
But then you know how it is inour field.
It's like well, it kind ofseemed mental, healthy, so to
speak, back then.
And then, as I researched alittle bit more, I'm like, oh,
this is like really good andsupported by good research.
So I don't know, maybe justtalk a little bit about how you
got into MI and then we can justkind of bounce back and forth
on what it is and how it'shelpful, because I know you have
a book on it.
I've got a course coming outthrough the Behavior Toolbox and
my colleagues.
So I'm excited about all thisstuff.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Well, first of all, thank you, polly, for allowing
me to be here in your podcastand speaking about something
that we can both nerd out about,because I didn't know you were
like so into motivationalinterviewing, which I always
love.
So the way that I came intothis field is because I was
completing my doctorate studiesand we had to do practicum, and
(02:20):
I started practicum with thesubstance use population right
Now they call it like substancemisuse, but this was a very
tough population to work withand my supervisors at that time
were very well versed inmotivational interviewing and
they basically taught meeverything I know.
And when I started seeing youknow the quote, unquote magic of
(02:41):
what it does and how much lessattrition there was with the
patients and just all of this, Isaid you know the quote,
unquote magic of what it doesand and how much less attrition
there was with the patients andand just all of this, I said you
know what?
Why don't we apply the samestrategies into our ABA field?
I owned my, my company, um,crystal Minds, when that started
and I was one of those likereally passionate BCBAs that had
to tell everyone about our,about our science and, you know,
(03:03):
try to convince them, but itwasn't working and I was like
what the heck is going on?
I'm, you know, showing them thegraphs, I'm showing them, you
know, the research and they'restill not buying in.
And then when I started, youknow, applying motivational
interviewing techniques, likereflective listening and
open-ended questions, and reallydeveloping this curiosity for
their challenges, when I wasworking with the um, I started
(03:26):
seeing a change.
I started seeing that I hadbuilt more rapport, that they
were, there was more of thatbuy-in and there was just a
better relationship and I wasn'tburning out and we're getting
as frustrated as I was.
So then I said you know what?
I cannot keep this to myself, Ihave to put it out there.
I started researching and therewasn't a lot, there was really
nothing on motivationalinterviewing.
(03:47):
The only thing I found was aresearch article by Straschel
and and Christopher I think itwas.
I'll I'll send it to you I'mnot sure if you've seen it um,
where they conceptualizemotivational interviewing
techniques into ABA, into, like,the language of ABA, which I
found fascinating and I was likeyou know what?
I'm going to do it.
So I started developingdifferent you know webinars.
(04:08):
I started, I wrote my book.
This was all during quarantine.
So, yeah, then I just, you know, just developed this passion
for motivational interviewing.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Well that it is exciting.
I will say that I think Ireally really kind of gravitated
towards it after I read a bookthat's not on motivation
interviewing Again, it was outthere in the world and I'm like
this is interesting, just thename of it's like, oh, because
we know we have a lot of peoplethat really don't want to change
(04:40):
, and even if it's in their bestinterest.
And I read a book called SpinSelling.
We talked about this, I think alittle bit offline, a while
back.
It was by Neil Rackham and whatthey did was they researched
over 35,000 sales calls to findout what the best approach to
selling is.
And we think, well, we're notselling things here, and I don't
(05:01):
like the term spin selling.
It sounds very manipulative,but we actually are.
With selling, you're trying toget behavior change.
In this case, you're trying toget people to put their hand in
their pocket and get out somemoney, and so we are trying to
get buy-in for change.
You know, even though it's tohelp people that better help
themselves.
But when you tell people allthe great things that they need
to do or suggest or push them inany way, people tend to be
(05:24):
resistant.
And so this question asking waslike really powerful, and
that's what SPIN is actually anacronym, and the best way I
could describe it is that's justfinding out what people's
reinforcers are, what's blockingtheir access to the reinforcers
, asking some other questionsthat uncover some you know
implications of you know notchanging, and then, essentially,
you know coming up with a plan.
(05:46):
You know what, if I were able toremove those obstacles to your
reinforcers, would you bewilling to change?
And so when I frame them likewait a second, this is like I
mean he doesn't say it that way,but I'm like this is like a
form of motivationalinterviewing.
So maybe you want to dive backinto it, because it was like
almost a short form of it and Ifound that motivational
interviewing has a lot of movingparts in it.
It's not, as I mean, it reallyrequires a lot of effort and
(06:11):
fluency to learn it, because,yeah, yeah, I mean because it's
so, but anyway, so let's juststart from the top there,
because we've talked about it,can you just explain to people
what exactly motivationalinterviewing is and then we'll
kind of, you know, break outsome of the benefits, some of
the key tools in it, and etcetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah, so motivational interviewing is not like
psychobabble.
It's not like, you know,psychoanalysis or anything like
that.
I know people in the behavioralworld that may not know about
motivational interviewing, maythink that it's just a
psychological technique, butit's really.
(06:50):
What you're doing is thatyou're having a conversation
with that other person aboutchange.
That's really what it is.
You're having a conversationabout change and then you're
using some of these skills inorder to evoke change from that
person.
So I think one of the challengesthat we face as a field is that
we've been so solution focused,which isn't a bad thing.
That's how we were.
(07:10):
You know that, that's how westarted in the field and that's
you know what we do.
So we're very solution focused.
But what happens when we areconstantly telling parents how
to do an intervention and whatthey should do is that first
they become prompt dependent onus and then it's harder to fade
out services.
Secondly, we're not reallyrespecting their knowledge
because they may have tools thatreally work out.
(07:32):
So it's more like problemsolving.
We want to teach them toproblem solve and come up with
these interventions and in themeantime we're kind of guiding
them.
But we're working with them, sowe're not doing parent training
or parent coaching on them.
We're doing it with them, ifthat makes sense.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Yeah, I mean it's, you know, for me it's been like
leadership 101, coaching, likeinvolve your stakeholders, right
, we talk about this with assentand consent and all sorts of
things.
Like, we got to create a wantfor people, like they, you know,
otherwise we're already behindthe eight ball.
That means we're alreadycoercing them, we're pushing
them.
You know we have to, we I meanthis is in my book position
(08:12):
authority talking about this isleading and this is, you know, a
has a value and behavioraltering effect, you know.
So this is an approach forhaving that effect and I know,
like, you know it, it it centersaround relationships and I know
there's certain rules with it,right, because, like, we all
tend to want to like push peoplein a certain direction.
So, you know, I know there'slike things about, like, you
(08:34):
know, don't try to right theship, so to speak.
I think they call it therighting reflex.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
You know, we want to make sure that we're being
empathetic and there's a wholebunch of different approach to
it that we're being empatheticand there's a whole bunch of
different approach to it.
But one of the things I foundfascinating about it and
behavior analysts should lovethis is that we are looking for
data and the data is like thischange talk yes.
This change talk is like,informs us that, oh you know,
like these-.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Working.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yeah, it's working and, like you know, we're maybe
ready to begin making some sortof plan at some point, because
they're demonstrating likethey're not ambivalent or
resistant I know they don't liketo use that term anymore
resistant but they might be opento some sort of change as
opposed to them saying, well, Ithink things are just fine with
this, or I don't think thisisn't going to work for me.
(09:21):
The issue is not mine, it'sother people, et cetera, et
cetera.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Right, yeah, exactly so it's.
It's very behavioral in thatsense, in that if you really
want to nerd out and take data,you can actually write down or
tally the frequency of counterchange talk or sustained talk
versus change talk, and what wewant to do is we want to put
more emphasis on that changetalk versus change talk.
(09:46):
And what we want to do is wewant to put more emphasis on
that change talk and there'slike different tools and
different things that you can doto try to evoke change talk.
So it is possible.
So, basically, you want theperson to engage in more of
these change talk statements andthat is more indicative of them
actually changing theirbehavior.
So let's do this, this quicklittle exercise, if it's okay
with you, let's do it.
(10:06):
So that everyone can kind of seethe you know the magic in some
way of using a simple technique.
So I'm going to ask you, pauly,to think about a behavior that
you want to change.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
You got it.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
There's so many.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Just pick one.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Yes, okay, yes, I've got one.
Okay, you got one.
Yes, okay, yes, I've got one.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Okay, you got one, all right, perfect.
So, in terms of how importantit is for you to change this
behavior right now, from one to10, 10 being mega important how
important is it for you to, well, first tell me what behavior do
you want to change?
Speaker 1 (10:46):
me what behavior do you want to change?
I want to.
I want to stop.
I want to stop helping peopleso much, right, and helping
people to better help themselves.
I'm really it's about promptdependency, right.
So to stop pushing my help onpeople like literally it's like
them, I right.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Okay, perfect.
Well, you're in the right place.
So you want to stop, you know,pushing your health towards
people.
So, in terms of importance, howimportant is it for you to stop
doing that right now, from zeroto 10?
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Oh, it's very important it's.
For me, it's a 10.
You know I just need to letstuff go.
You know what I mean.
And even if I think something'sbest, yeah, it's a priority in
my life.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Okay, and how ready are you to start doing that now?
Speaker 1 (11:25):
I'm ready to roll, I'm doing it, I'm working on it
now you know.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Okay.
So let's say, just so we canyou know, um, for purposes of
this practice, let's say thatyou mentioned a seven.
Something that I would ask youis so why did you say a seven
and not perhaps a three?
So why didn't you give it alower number than the number
that you're giving it?
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah, I guess it gets me to reflect on my own
behavior.
Why, in terms of like mewanting to do it, or my
readiness, or both.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
So in terms of your readiness.
So let's say you picked a seven.
Why would you pick a seven andnot like a lower number?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Oh, I've been thinking about it for a while,
you know, I've like recognizedhow it hampers me, how it, you
know I inadvertently hurt othersby, you know, by not you know,
engaging them more in their ownchange.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Right.
So right there, simple questionYou're able to come up with all
the reasons for that change,right?
A simple question, and youalready came up with all these
reasons for that change.
So that's what we want to see.
We want to see that and thenbuild momentum on that change
talk.
So these are all the reasonswhy you would want to change.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah, I know that they, they and they give you
like formats to look fordifferent I think they call it
darn cat Right, desire, ability,reason, need you know?
So there's some things that youlook for like that.
They just drop into thesedifferent categories.
But the bottom line is a datapoint to show that people are
maybe moving from beingambivalent, thinking like you
(12:53):
know, or saying words like I'mnot really ready for change or I
don't think it's necessary, I'mfine with the status quo, to
like, all right, the door isopen.
And when the door is open Iknow that you know, because part
of the what is essential to MIare these ORS techniques, right,
like you, just you know askingopen ended questions, affirming
(13:14):
which I would say it's like, hey, we really want to reinforce
that kind of change talk.
Yes, you know, keep it going inin the right direction.
Right, I mean, that's part oflike, we're kind of.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah.
So affirmations it's I like tocall it not just a cheerleader
effect, right?
So you're not just saying like,wow, good job, you're so good at
this, but it's really trying tofind these strengths that the
person has that will allow themto engage in whatever tasks
they're trying to engage in.
So when we're speaking about,for example, like parents, right
is trying to find thesestrengths.
So, for example, I had aconversation with a parent, like
(13:49):
a couple weeks ago, and it wasjust very difficult for them to
engage in this intervention thatI was asking them to engage in.
And I said can you think backat a certain time or a certain
point of your life where you hada similar challenge and you
were able to find techniquesyourself to kind of conquer it?
And then the parent told meyeah, I was able to do this and
I did that, and I'm like, okay,so that's great, right, that
(14:11):
tells me that you have thatcourage, that you have that
persistence.
So how can we use that tointervene effectively in your
son's behaviors?
So it's kind of like lookingfor those strengths, bringing it
out, offering it to them, andthen how can we use that to get
you to where you want to go?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, I mean again, I think it's an EO right,
creating a want for them to movein a direction.
I know that it also has likedifferent processes that are
within it, like engaging people.
Again, we should be, as abehavior analyst, working with
anybody.
We should be engaging ourstakeholders, we're engaging the
learner, we should be engagingthe parents, and then, you know,
(14:48):
after we have them engaged, weneed to, you know, pick a focus.
What are we going to work on?
I think this is, you know, allthis stuff is brought out
through these, you know,open-ended questions to find.
You know, it's like thisdiscovery.
And then, of course, you know,as you were mentioning, like
(15:09):
there's the evoking, uh, makingsure that, um, you know that
they want to change.
Right, they have to have thereasons to change, not us,
because it's still coming backto changing their behavior,
because if they want to producea different result, it requires
behavior change.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
And I think probably that that's the most difficult
part, I think, for us behavioranalysts to do to evoke that
from them to take a step backand instead of saying, hey,
don't provide attention to thisbehavior because this will
happen, instead of that we canask what do you think would
happen if you continue toprovide attention to this
behavior?
Right, that's a differentapproach.
(15:38):
Now we're having the parentsproblem solve themselves and
come up with those solutions.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, as opposed to saying, like man, if you keep
paying attention to it, you'regoing to get more of it and it's
going to make your life harder.
They've got to come up withthose solutions, Absolutely.
So it is a fine line and it,you know, because it's supposed
to be.
You know, no, we're supposed to, um, listen empathetically and
we have to again resist thaturge to tell them the right
(16:05):
thing to do, which is very, very, very challenging when you know
it's like it is the key to it.
The other thing is that whichcan make it a challenge.
This is where the challengewith this whole approach comes
into.
But it's just a challenge thatwe need to overcome and I think
it's a challenge that's set upbecause of our systems.
A lot of times there's abehavior challenge going on and
you know, like, let's say,schools, it's an easy one for
(16:27):
everybody to understand and youget sent into the classroom to
work with a teacher.
Um, they're there for a couplehours or day and they're like
they're required to make changequick.
I'm like this is not the way itworks, you know.
I mean, like you have to in um,in organizational management,
we look at relationships as anaccomplishment, right, it's a
data point to say like, hey, ifwe don't have a good
relationship, if people don'ttrust us, you know, if they
(16:48):
don't see how our help cansupport them for meeting their
needs and producing their valuedoutcomes, then you know again,
we're coercing people, which isexactly the opposite of what we
want to do.
Right, but this is a process andit can be do.
Right, but this is a processand it could be quick, right,
(17:09):
Depending on what the person'shistory is and what they think
of you, and et cetera, et cetera.
Or it could be lengthy, likegetting people to move.
What's been your experiencewith that in terms of how
quickly you've been able to dothings, or maybe some timelines
where it was challenging?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
but over time you made it.
So I think when I've beeninvited to speak in the
conferences, you know, I usuallyget that same question from the
audience, like, oh, this soundsgreat, we love it.
How long does it take, right.
And I'm like, how long does anextinction burst take?
Like who knows Right, like wedon't know.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Behavior change takes time.
In general, it takes time.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
And you know, what I find interesting is that when we
are teaching, when we'reworking one-on-one with our
kiddos right, and we areteaching them, for example,
verbal behavior, where we'retrying to accomplish getting
them to say something ball, forexample we don't rush that
process right.
We shape it, we reinforcesmaller steps, we're patient,
(18:02):
we're reduced.
But then when it, when we useit with adults, when we use it
with the teachers that we'reworking with, or when we use it
with our staff, or even with theparents doing parent coaching
session, we want it to be quick,we want the report to be like
quick and we want them to changereally quick.
But that's not the way that itworks.
It's a process and I think thatwe have to change our mindset,
just as you mentioned.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Well, that's huge.
I mean, this has been kind oflike the torch that I've held
for a long time throughorganizational paper management.
It's like we forget about thescience when we start working
with the adults.
And I know we're forgettingabout it because we blame, we
say they're not doing this orthey're lazy, et cetera, et
cetera.
We don't think about, you know,altering the environment, which
we are a very important part ofthat environment.
So I agree with that.
(18:43):
So much, man, we have to likethat.
You know that, first of all, ifwe're going to get any
sustainable change with ourlearners, almost always the
adults in the local environmentare going to have changed their
behavior period Right.
So in a sense they're learnersas well and we have to involve
them because it's like it's, youknow it's changing behavior, if
(19:04):
you know, unless you're thereworking constantly with a kid
and you can do it, so it justbecomes a habit.
That's very rare, you knowpeople are gonna have to do
engage in different behaviors inorder to maintain that behavior
.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Right and we don't change.
We don't change behaviors perse right.
What is it that we change?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
We change the environment Well, and we change
habits over time.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Exactly, and the parents are part of that
environment.
So that's really what we'redoing essentially, and then,
when we create these empatheticenvironments with parents,
they're more likely to buy in,they're more likely to trust.
And I think another thing thatcan also be a challenge, but
it's something that we have toovercome is that when we go into
a session with a parent, wecontinue to see our client as
(19:48):
the client and not the parent asa client.
We have to learn how to shiftour mindset, and when you are
having a conversation with aparent, the parent or the
teacher becomes your client.
Once you make that switch, itis way easier to apply all these
techniques.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
It is huge.
I mean, when they well, I thinkpart of it is that also the,
the organizational leaders needto recognize this and they need
to see that change talk as adata point.
They need to see therelationship as a data point.
I mean, how can we measure thatrelationship?
Well, maybe it's.
They asked us a question, theyreached out to us, you know.
(20:25):
Ask us when we're going to becoming, you know.
But you know again that changetalk becomes something to say.
You know what we are moving inthe right direction, because all
they're going to look at is thebottom line result.
And is that child?
You know, because, from anorganizational behavior
management perspective, learnerbehavior is a result, yeah, as a
result of, you know, other, theenvironment, the adults in that
(20:49):
environment, and changing theirbehavior.
So when we everybody's justlooking at that result and
they're like, well, you're notdoing your job, well, hold on,
there are a chain of things thatneed to occur before it can
happen.
We can probably produce ashort-term result, but it's
going to be using coercion right, forcing somebody to do
something, like suggesting itstrongly you need to do this and
(21:10):
now it doesn't maintain.
Yeah, it won't maintain.
Now, should we ever do that?
Yeah, I think that there aretimes where we just have to get
people do something, likethere's a crisis, there's
something going on that thelearner is going to be hurt,
right, and there's been a lot ofdebate about, like assent and
consent.
I think people are finallycoming back around and say,
listen, I think assent is great.
It aligns perfectly with myvalues in terms of involving our
(21:33):
stakeholders.
But there are times when youjust need people to do something
because it's dangerous for them.
Right, it can be harmful ifthey don't change, with the goal
being like, if you do use thatman, you better get them in
touch with some sort of positivereinforcement very quickly for
doing it, otherwise they're notgoing to want you around,
nothing's going to sustain, etcetera, et cetera.
You know.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Right and and I think it lies in the how um, so we
have to get it done, but how wedo it can really change
everything, right?
So it's again it comes out.
It has to do with the way thatwe communicate these things to
the parents.
It's not like we're never goingto communicate with them about
something that has to be done orsomething that we really think
(22:13):
that is urgent.
But again, it's in the howright.
And another question that Ioften get is well, what happens
if the parent just doesn't wantto, you know, to do the
intervention?
We've tried this.
We tried, you know, reflectivelistening.
We try summarizations, we triedall of these great techniques
and they still don't want to.
And I always tell them well, ifthey don't want to, then they
(22:35):
don't want to.
That, that's it.
End of end of story.
We don't have to do it.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yeah, I like to think , you know, I, I, I agree with
that.
But I like also like to saythat for these, I have these
four hats of leadership.
I'd mentioned leading I'veleading, training, coaching,
managing.
They all serve a differentfunction.
Right, it's really about thefour term contingency.
It means that we have to dosomething more or less
differently, because we alwaysthink through the three term but
we have to think about MOs andwhat do we need to do to create
(23:00):
a want for that parent?
Whatever we're doing right nowis not working.
Can it be done?
Yes, I mean, I'm certain thatit can.
There's research on how to doit.
So it's kind of like peoplesaying that, um, well, I'm
reinforcing them, but the butit's not working.
Well, it's, you know.
It means that you're just not areinforcer.
You know it can't not work ifit is.
And it means that if we are notengaging our stakeholders in
(23:25):
change, it means we need to dosomething more or lesser
differently, though ourapproaches, our behaviors are
not producing that desiredresults.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Right, right, and I think another thing that I also
like to speak about, like duringmy book and the trainings, is
on the trans-theoretical model.
So this is something that wasborrowed into motivational
interviewing because it worksreally well together.
But this talks about thedifferent phases of change.
So in the pre contemplation,for example, is where you're
like what you know, I reallydon't have a drinking problem or
(23:55):
problem at all or whatever itis.
Or my child has been, you know,I don't know like thrown out of
like seven schools, but he's aboy, he'll grow out of it, kind
of thing.
So that mentality is thepre-contemplation, like what
problem?
A parent or a person who is inthis phase of change?
You're not going to like startgiving them interventions
(24:15):
because they haven't evenacknowledged that there is a
problem.
So I think that looking at allthese phases of change
pre-contemplation, contemplation, preparation, you know, and the
rest of them is so important.
We have to identify where thisclient or this parent lies in
order to then come up withinterventions that will suit
their needs.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
For behavior analysts .
There's action and maintenanceright the last two parts of
those and it's very behavioranalytically oriented.
You know there's also researchcalled stages of concern that
align with this.
I use it with the educators alot and saying, like man, like
they're not, you want them tochange, produce this outcome
right now.
They don't care aboutinnovating learning for the
(24:56):
students right now if they'rebarely surviving and they can't
keep their head about.
So you got to start with whattheir reinforcers are and what
their values are.
I like to use the act matrix inin in collaboration with this.
I think it's such a great waybecause you can just use all the
principles of motivationalinterviewing and make it kind of
concrete and kind of startsorting stuff out, finding out
(25:17):
what's important to them andwhat's showing up for them and
when they engage in thisbehavior.
You know, does that align withtheir values?
What else is it?
It's like a perfect, likecompliment to motivational
interviewing, to, to to do it Um.
I mean, we, we actually use it,um, anika, and I use it when we
go out to train um with, youknow, school leaders.
We have massive amount ofschool leaders and people buy in
(25:38):
drastically when with thatvisual and, of course course,
using the principles of uh,motivation interviewing.
You can still do it with a group.
Uh, you know it becomes, youknow, hard to like really
measure, like everybody'sengaging in change talk, but you
know you're, you're doingactive student responding and
they're, you know they'retalking out, they're porting out
and you can begin to see theshift and, uh, you know how
(25:59):
they're approaching things.
So I think it's, I would loveto see some you know research on
it as a group.
Have you ever seen any researchlinked to like group MI?
Speaker 2 (26:08):
stuff.
I haven't no, not as a group, Ihaven't seen it.
That would be interesting.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Yeah, I think it'd be fun, but there are a lot of
things that the MI can beembedded into.
Do you find yourself using thisin your everyday life with your
own kids and your own family?
Because it's gotta be difficult, because there's all the
emotion caught up into it, youknow.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, so I would.
This is a disclaimer don't useit with your significant other,
okay, cause it will definitelybackfire.
I have a skid that I do with myhusband, but it's like a pseudo
skid.
Obviously, he's not as thatcompliant, but yeah, I mean, you
know, I don't think you shoulduse anything on your significant
other because it's always goingto backfire.
(26:52):
But with my kids, however, Ihave used more of the open ended
questions, right?
So, as a mom and as a behavioranalyst, you know, I mean, I
think that sometimes I'm very,like, solution focused.
So, let's say, my child tellsme, oh, someone was bullying me,
or this is going on, and Iquickly jump to it Well, this is
what you should do, and this isinstead of asking well, what do
(27:14):
you think would have beensomething that you could have
told this person when they toldyou that?
Right?
So here I'm allowing him toproblem solve.
I'm allowing him to problemsolve, I'm allowing him to come
up with his own solutions thatmay be better than the solutions
I'm going to give him, and he'smore likely to run with those
solutions because it's hissolutions.
So I have used some of thesetechniques with my kids, for
(27:37):
sure.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
It is so powerful.
I mean, in leadership, I have asaying that if they author it,
they'll own it right.
So you don't want to do thingsto people, you want to do things
with them and so they need tosee what's in it for them and
they need to have input to that.
I mean, it's so simple but it'sso powerful.
But I think the big challengefor people with this approach
(27:59):
again, you know, like wanting topush your own agenda, uh, you
know, being patient, um, I mean,we really need to be taking a
look at like their, theirfeedback, their responses, are
feedback for us.
It's data.
Everything they're doing isdata and we're should be
constantly adjusting ourapproach, like what you said
earlier, with the people saying,well, it's not working.
(28:21):
Well, that's data.
For you, what you're doing isnot working.
It means you need to dosomething more or less or
differently, and it means,typically, that they need to
circle back to the open-endedquestions they might've tried to
push too fast.
Right, with, you know, with theplanning phase.
Right, because we still need tomake sure that we are actually
evoking some sort of change.
(28:42):
And if we don't get, if wedon't evoke, you know, reasons
for change, then going into theplanning phase is not going to
be good, because it means thatthey are reinforcing them, right
.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, exactly, and you know, I think also like when
we work with parents in pushingthe agenda, because another
question that I've gotten alsois well, this sounds great, but
aren't we just manipulatingpeople to do what we want?
And I'm like, yeah, I mean, itsounds like it right.
I think in any science or inanything you do, you have that
(29:14):
thing where you can actuallycoerce someone.
But what prevents us from doingthat in ABA, for example, it's
our ethics.
So in motivational interviewingwe have something called the
spirit of motivationalinterviewing.
So our goals have to be alignedwith the parent's goals as well
, because if not, we're pushingour agenda.
We have to respect theirautonomy.
We have to also speak abouttheir challenges and speak about
(29:37):
their goals and try to alignwith them, so we're not just
doing what we think is important.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, I mean, it's supposed to be collaborative,
it's supposed to have the intentto empower people, right,
because we want autonomy.
So like, yeah, I don't.
I mean, and I think that youknow, I think that there's no
reason that it shouldn't betransparent, like, hey, here's
what I'm gonna do, I'm gonnafind out what's important to you
.
Some questions, so you know,because a lot of people don't
know their own values, right,they don't understand, maybe,
(30:03):
the ramifications or the rippleeffects of their behavior across
the people they love, acrosstheir own life.
So it's kind of like, I thinkit's kind of like making it
salient to them, it's likebringing all the stuff to the
surface so they essentially haveall the data to work with to
make a more of an informeddecision.
Is the way that I think aboutit, you know.
(30:24):
Otherwise, you know, I I thinkwe could say anything is
manipulative, and I don't thinkit's manipulative, you know,
especially if they understand,like, here's, what I'm going to
do is why I mean, you're drivingthe ship and I'm going to be
asking you questions that youknow that, that get you to think
about all these outcomes andstuff like that.
So we can, if you're notgetting changed with them again.
(30:49):
I think it means that we stillneed to do something more to us
or differently.
I want to say that we can, butthere are always going to be
people who have a long history.
They don't like the way that Ilook, you know.
They don't like my tone ofvoice or something like that.
Maybe they heard somethingabout me that they don't feel so
great, right?
So they're just resistant orthey work for another behavior
and it's got nothing to do withme.
So it's like we got to maybetap out and maybe have somebody
(31:11):
else step in.
But that's the same thing withany learners, Right?
We all have people like it'schallenging, right?
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Right, yeah, polly, I can tell you don't like to, you
know, to give up.
You're like, no, there's stillsomething we have to do.
And I like that Right, and I'malso like that.
I think it gets to a pointwhere we have to learn to tap
out.
We just have to learn, like youknow, there's that, that's it.
We've already exhaustedeverything because guess what?
The other families that we workwith need us and we're going to
(31:39):
burn out, and that's a realthing.
That's happening in our fields.
A lot of behavior analysts aregoing into gardening or like
random things because they'rejust so burnt out.
So there has to be a pointwhere we're just like okay, you
know, we respect that you're notready.
It's not that they don't wantto, it's that they're just not
ready right now.
So you can contact me when youare ready and I'll be here for
(32:00):
you.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Yeah, holler at me, dog.
I mean I just think that it's.
You know, I think if you'regetting I always, as a leader in
different organizations, right,I never wanted, I always wanted
to bring out the best in peopleand so, like I didn't want
somebody to quit or you know, Ididn't want, I wanted them to
feel good and help them produceresults.
(32:21):
But I recognize you can't geteverybody right, but I always
worry that people are going tofall back on that as an excuse,
right?
So I have it in my mind.
It's like the 80, 20 rule, likeI believe, like you're being
successful, you should begetting at least.
If you're getting 80% on thepeople on board and it's working
, then you're, you're doing theright thing, right.
If you're getting less thanthat, then you might need to
(32:44):
shape your stuff up.
If you're getting nine out of10, I just don't think we're
going to get 10 out of 10 people.
You know, just because, likeyou said, like there could be
different things going at a time, maybe later on, it could just
be a number of variables that wecan't control.
But I think you know, shoot forthat rule of thumb.
You know the 80-20 rule and youknow, I think you'll be okay.
Yeah, so where do you see MI inthe future in terms of, you
(33:07):
know, in our field, like, whatwould you like to see you know,
how would you like to see thefield embrace it?
What would make it better forthe field or you know, to really
disseminate this approach,because not many people are
aware of it and when they hearabout it it just makes sense to
them.
They're like oh, this makes alot of sense.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
So, you know, what's interesting is that I started
doing this, I started doing thecourses and obviously when we
see something new in our fields,we're like, oh, something
different than what we'velearned so far.
So of course we're attractiveto it.
And then a lot of people youknow have have taken my courses
and have, you know, read my bookand everything.
But I think that one of themost important things in
(33:49):
motivational interviewing ispracticing it Like it's not just
one training, it's not just onepodcast, like you really have.
It's um, it's sort of like away of life.
I know it sounds very dramatic,but it is the way that it is.
You have to be very consciousof, of how you're coming across
and when you are communicatingwith others.
So I would love to see itintegrated into university
(34:10):
programs in ABA.
I really think that it will dowonders to the graduate students
and just embedded in moreconferences and more people just
speaking about MI and andcommunicating more effectively.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
I agree, I mean, I mean, look, it's all part of
like finding out what people'sreinforcers are again finding
out what's blocking their accessto them, you know, letting them
see that stuff.
I mean I mean, look, it's allpart of like finding out what
people's reinforcers are againfinding out what's blocking
their access to them, you know,letting them see that stuff, I
think.
But it really does require, youknow, it requires a lot of
practice.
I mean just even the part with,like you know, you know,
resisting the urge to, like youknow, change and being
nonjudgmental with stuff orresisting the urge to change
(34:47):
them.
And it has all these, you knowthese, these principles that you
got to follow.
You know it's got the four, thefour processes.
You know the engaging and andand focusing and planning and or
the evoking and planning andstuff like that, and of course
there's the oars.
But then there's stuff that youjust brought up, like you know,
the changes, the stages ofchange.
You know there's a lot ofmoving parts that you have to be
aware of to become better at.
(35:09):
Now I know that you wrote abook on it that pairs behavior
analysis with MI, which I thinkthat was the first book to do
that.
Is that correct?
Am I correct in saying that?
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yes, I guess.
So If someone has data that iscontrary to that, let me know.
I mean, I don't want to be like, hey, I was the first one, but,
um, yes, and in writing thatbook, you know.
And again, when I started I'mvery like, straightforward, I'm
very like, you know, um, honestwith with these things.
When I started embeddingmotivational interviewing into
our fields, I was a littlescared because I know how our
(35:47):
field is Right and it's kind oflike we're bringing something
that's that's psychological innature, that well, how do you
objectively define it?
So I was a little scared.
I was like, oh my gosh, I'mgoing to put this out there.
They're going to say I'm a badbehavior analyst, but it was the
contrary, right.
And I think that in the book Ikind of explain or I
conceptualize some of thesemotivational interviewing terms
(36:10):
into ABA terminology, just sopeople can make that connection.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Yeah, just kind of like what I said finding out
what people's reinforcers are.
You know, absolutely.
I mean, you're gauging, andwhen you're asking those
questions, essentially it shouldbe, you know, mos.
You know we're creating a wantfor change, you know, and I want
you, you know, to do more ofthis and do less of that, but
based on what their reinforcersare, and that should be guiding
our questions to begin with.
Yeah, you know, I know that ourfield's been like that for a
(36:36):
while.
I've had that issue with youknow some things as well, but at
some point, like if it'sworking, it's working.
I mean, it's also coming downto your behavior, right?
So it's looking at our behaviorand looking at the result, and
if it's producing that result,all right, we can put a lens on
what we're doing.
You know, right.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
And, at the end of the day, I think that if you are
, like, truly a behavior analystand you see the world through
those behavior analysis like,you know that behavior analysis
like lens, you know that thingsare conceptualized in whatever
way people want to conceptualizethem, but at the end it's
behavior right.
Like, at the end we can defineit with with ABA terminology
(37:14):
because we really believe thatit's all based on these terms
right.
So I think it's just findinghow to do that, like even in my
psychology world, because, sinceI am a clinical psychologist
and I'm also BCBA, in mypsychology world, when I work
with with clients that have, youknow, depression, that have
different personality disorders,I use a lot of ABA techniques.
(37:35):
They're just called differently.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
I agree.
I mean, when we're doing thingslike helping people, like you
know, look at functionalrelationships of looking at
their own behavior and theimpact on the environment,
that's parts it's still clientcentered, youcentered.
We're still looking for abehavioral change because if we
still got to come up with a plan, if we're going to do it, we're
engaging in MOs.
I mean it's still ethical andrespectful treatment of people.
(37:59):
I think it aligns very wellwith what we have going on in
the field and even our thoughtsand our feelings.
We can treat those like they'recovert behaviors.
And so, you know, we're sayinglike, hey, make sure you're
resisting the urge to write thereflex.
Well, we can, you know, beobservers of that and we value
MI, we value that we want toengage people in their own
change.
Then we can become betterobservers of our behavior.
(38:20):
Hey, when I think and feel thisway, engage in this behavior,
that's when I try to.
You know, I try to make thechange, I try to force it and
realize that you know what thisis not okay.
You know this is misaligned, myvalues.
I need to engage in replacementbehavior that's going back to
listening empathetically, that'sasking open-ended questions,
that's helping them exploretheir own behaviors and, you
(38:40):
know, maybe making the linkbetween their behaviors and
their impact on the environment.
So I think it gets verybehavioral in nature.
If something's working, we canframe it behaviorally.
Just because it hasn't been,maybe done at different levels,
doesn't mean it can't be, and Ijust love this concept.
So what's coming up for you?
I know that you have CrystalMinds, right, so you're the
(39:02):
founder of Crystal Minds.
Yes, it's in Miami, and youguys, you have a clinic or are
you in home?
Is it both?
Speaker 2 (39:08):
So we do both.
We have a clinic, we have twoclinics, one in Broward, one in
Dade, and, and you know we'vehad it open for about 14 and a
half years already.
And congrats on that.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
That's a rarity to have a business that long.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
I remember you sent me that.
I was like wow, Okay, this, youknow this kind of reinforces my
efforts.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Yeah, that's a.
That's a very challenging thing, and do you do like any private
consulting?
You do any training?
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Yes, so I have courses, I have webinars that I
provide.
I'm also going to be a Faba.
I'm going to be speaking aboutmotivational interviewing in
Spanish, so that's somethingthat I've wanted to also do, I
think, for the Spanish speakers.
You know, we don't have a lotof, like you know, these
webinars and these interestingthings, so I definitely want to
do something more in Spanish and, yeah, that's basically what
(39:59):
I'm doing.
I also do coaching, so I doconsultation for private
practices.
So private practices that havea couple of behavior analysts
and they want to get some, youknow, consultation, some
trainings and things like that.
I also do that.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Oh, very cool, that's awesome.
So that'll be, and we'll makesure we drop your contact
information in the link.
So I'm excited about all thisstuff.
You know we have our coursecoming out.
I think it's, you know,developing coursework,
especially around something likethis.
We're developing coursework,especially around something like
this.
We're calling it a primer tomotivational interviewing.
I call it a primer because itcan just go so deep, but I feel
(40:33):
like it's.
You know.
We have a bunch of tools thatcome with it to help people,
like downloadables, you know,like task aids, essentially to
help.
I would just encourage everybody, like you know, don't wait for
the course.
Go out right now and take alook at some of Monica's stuff,
you know.
Pick up some of my books andwhen the course comes out, make
sure you take a look at that.
You have to build fluency.
This stuff requires repetition,but it is powerful.
(40:55):
For my own consulting business,using these approaches has just
opened up the world by askingquestions.
Even when we meet with ourclients or potential clients, it
is like by the time they'relike, yeah, let's go, we need to
make the change, because peoplejust don't know what they don't
know.
So it's a nice approach togetting them to reflect on.
You know the change that needsto happen.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Yeah, and I know that you're a boxer right, and I
believe that it was Mike Tysonthat said you know, everyone has
a plan until they get punchedin the face, right that's right.
And I think that you know a lotof the times we take these
webinars and then we go andwe're like, yes, we're going to
do it.
And then we are there with theparents and we're like, oh crap,
what do we say now?
(41:37):
What's the reflection?
And we don't know what's goingto happen.
Right, because everyone isdifferent.
That's why these ongoingconsultations, that's why these
ongoing coachings are soimportant, in order to build
that fluency, because you don'tknow what's going to happen on
the other side of that door onceyou meet that person.
And then you know it's soimportant to reflect back and
speak with someone that knowsabout motivational interviewing
(41:59):
that can coach you even furtherinto that.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Absolutely, man.
We got to build fluency withthis stuff and so, yeah, you're
right, don't give up on it justbecause you went dude.
It really takes.
It takes practice.
I'm sure you're still learning,you know, I know I'm definitely
still learning.
You know, creating these likekey habits, always reflecting on
what I'm doing.
And am I pushing people againresisting, I'm resisting my urge
(42:23):
to always help people, you know, creating an urge for them to
want to help themselves andreflect on the change that they
have to make.
So well, monica, it's been ablast having you on here.
I know that we will be seeingeach other at Faba, hopefully,
and I'm sure we'll talk, youknow, before that.
And you know, just, I know I'mgoing to drop your information
here, but, like, is there anemail?
(42:44):
Best approach to reach out toyou?
Just so you know, maybe somepeople don't want to have to go
check on the in the notes.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
Yeah, so I'm really active on social media so you
can look for the MI doctor ordoctor like DR Monica Gilbert
and you can contact me there andask me for you know, my website
or any other things that you,any questions you have or just
share any interests you have.
I always love connecting withother behavior analysts.
(43:10):
And and again, thank you, polly, for having me here.
Hopefully we can do somethingtogether in the future.
I'm really excited about that.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
So, yeah, All right, yeah, let us know.
If you guys want Monica and Ito work together on something,
let us know, man, we'll probablycrush it.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
We'll make it fun, We'll make it entertaining.
I think we we bring likedifferent perspectives.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
So yeah, definitely do that.
All right, cool, all right,monica, good to see you.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Thank you.
Welcome to the Thoughts and Rants of a Behavior
Scientist show hosted by WallStreet Journal and USA Today.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
best-selling author, Dr Pauly.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Okay, welcome back to Thoughts and Rants of a
Behavior Scientist podcast.
I'm your host, Dr Pauly, andI'm here with Dr Monica Gilbert.
How are you doing today, Monica?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I'm doing well.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (00:25):
I'm good, you know, just staying busy, just
constantly busy, it feels like,and it's good busy because I'm
living my values.
I love the work that I do.
I love disseminating thescience of human behavior to
help people, to help themselvesand others, as I know that you
do as well.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
You're living your best life.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I think so for the most part.
It's tiring.
I didn't realize living my bestlife would be so exhausting.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, same, here I get it.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Now, monica and I.
I've seen her in the behaviorworld for a long time and we ran
across each other at the latestABAI conference, got to meet
her, I got to meet her husband.
We had a brief chat and wethought you know what we should
do some sort of collaboration.
Monica has been.
(01:11):
You know, she owns her owncompany.
She's an adjunct professor.
She's done a bunch of stuff.
I'll make sure I link her bioin there.
But, like, from my perspective,she's the first person that I
saw bringing motivationalinterviewing to the world of
behavior analysis and I loved it.
Now, in my mental healthbackground I had been exposed to
it.
I always liked the concept ofit.
(01:36):
But then you know how it is inour field.
It's like well, it kind ofseemed mental, healthy, so to
speak, back then.
And then, as I researched alittle bit more, I'm like, oh,
this is like really good andsupported by good research.
So I don't know, maybe justtalk a little bit about how you
got into MI and then we can justkind of bounce back and forth
on what it is and how it'shelpful, because I know you have
a book on it.
I've got a course coming outthrough the Behavior Toolbox and
my colleagues.
So I'm excited about all thisstuff.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Well, first of all, thank you, polly, for allowing
me to be here in your podcastand speaking about something
that we can both nerd out about,because I didn't know you were
like so into motivationalinterviewing, which I always
love.
So the way that I came intothis field is because I was
completing my doctorate studiesand we had to do practicum, and
(02:20):
I started practicum with thesubstance use population right
Now they call it like substancemisuse, but this was a very
tough population to work withand my supervisors at that time
were very well versed inmotivational interviewing and
they basically taught meeverything I know.
And when I started seeing youknow the quote, unquote magic of
(02:41):
what it does and how much lessattrition there was with the
patients and just all of this, Isaid you know the quote,
unquote magic of what it doesand and how much less attrition
there was with the patients andand just all of this, I said you
know what?
Why don't we apply the samestrategies into our ABA field?
I owned my, my company, um,crystal Minds, when that started
and I was one of those likereally passionate BCBAs that had
to tell everyone about our,about our science and, you know,
(03:03):
try to convince them, but itwasn't working and I was like
what the heck is going on?
I'm, you know, showing them thegraphs, I'm showing them, you
know, the research and they'restill not buying in.
And then when I started, youknow, applying motivational
interviewing techniques, likereflective listening and
open-ended questions, and reallydeveloping this curiosity for
their challenges, when I wasworking with the um, I started
(03:26):
seeing a change.
I started seeing that I hadbuilt more rapport, that they
were, there was more of thatbuy-in and there was just a
better relationship and I wasn'tburning out and we're getting
as frustrated as I was.
So then I said you know what?
I cannot keep this to myself, Ihave to put it out there.
I started researching and therewasn't a lot, there was really
nothing on motivationalinterviewing.
(03:47):
The only thing I found was aresearch article by Straschel
and and Christopher I think itwas.
I'll I'll send it to you I'mnot sure if you've seen it um,
where they conceptualizemotivational interviewing
techniques into ABA, into, like,the language of ABA, which I
found fascinating and I was likeyou know what?
I'm going to do it.
So I started developingdifferent you know webinars.
(04:08):
I started, I wrote my book.
This was all during quarantine.
So, yeah, then I just, you know, just developed this passion
for motivational interviewing.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Well that it is exciting.
I will say that I think Ireally really kind of gravitated
towards it after I read a bookthat's not on motivation
interviewing Again, it was outthere in the world and I'm like
this is interesting, just thename of it's like, oh, because
we know we have a lot of peoplethat really don't want to change
(04:40):
, and even if it's in their bestinterest.
And I read a book called SpinSelling.
We talked about this, I think alittle bit offline, a while
back.
It was by Neil Rackham and whatthey did was they researched
over 35,000 sales calls to findout what the best approach to
selling is.
And we think, well, we're notselling things here, and I don't
(05:01):
like the term spin selling.
It sounds very manipulative,but we actually are.
With selling, you're trying toget behavior change.
In this case, you're trying toget people to put their hand in
their pocket and get out somemoney, and so we are trying to
get buy-in for change.
You know, even though it's tohelp people that better help
themselves.
But when you tell people allthe great things that they need
to do or suggest or push them inany way, people tend to be
(05:24):
resistant.
And so this question asking waslike really powerful, and
that's what SPIN is actually anacronym, and the best way I
could describe it is that's justfinding out what people's
reinforcers are, what's blockingtheir access to the reinforcers
, asking some other questionsthat uncover some you know
implications of you know notchanging, and then, essentially,
you know coming up with a plan.
(05:46):
You know what, if I were able toremove those obstacles to your
reinforcers, would you bewilling to change?
And so when I frame them likewait a second, this is like I
mean he doesn't say it that way,but I'm like this is like a
form of motivationalinterviewing.
So maybe you want to dive backinto it, because it was like
almost a short form of it and Ifound that motivational
interviewing has a lot of movingparts in it.
It's not, as I mean, it reallyrequires a lot of effort and
(06:11):
fluency to learn it, because,yeah, yeah, I mean because it's
so, but anyway, so let's juststart from the top there,
because we've talked about it,can you just explain to people
what exactly motivationalinterviewing is and then we'll
kind of, you know, break outsome of the benefits, some of
the key tools in it, and etcetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah, so motivational interviewing is not like
psychobabble.
It's not like, you know,psychoanalysis or anything like
that.
I know people in the behavioralworld that may not know about
motivational interviewing, maythink that it's just a
psychological technique, butit's really.
(06:50):
What you're doing is thatyou're having a conversation
with that other person aboutchange.
That's really what it is.
You're having a conversationabout change and then you're
using some of these skills inorder to evoke change from that
person.
So I think one of the challengesthat we face as a field is that
we've been so solution focused,which isn't a bad thing.
That's how we were.
(07:10):
You know that, that's how westarted in the field and that's
you know what we do.
So we're very solution focused.
But what happens when we areconstantly telling parents how
to do an intervention and whatthey should do is that first
they become prompt dependent onus and then it's harder to fade
out services.
Secondly, we're not reallyrespecting their knowledge
because they may have tools thatreally work out.
(07:32):
So it's more like problemsolving.
We want to teach them toproblem solve and come up with
these interventions and in themeantime we're kind of guiding
them.
But we're working with them, sowe're not doing parent training
or parent coaching on them.
We're doing it with them, ifthat makes sense.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Yeah, I mean it's, you know, for me it's been like
leadership 101, coaching, likeinvolve your stakeholders, right
, we talk about this with assentand consent and all sorts of
things.
Like, we got to create a wantfor people, like they, you know,
otherwise we're already behindthe eight ball.
That means we're alreadycoercing them, we're pushing
them.
You know we have to, we I meanthis is in my book position
(08:12):
authority talking about this isleading and this is, you know, a
has a value and behavioraltering effect, you know.
So this is an approach forhaving that effect and I know,
like, you know it, it it centersaround relationships and I know
there's certain rules with it,right, because, like, we all
tend to want to like push peoplein a certain direction.
So, you know, I know there'slike things about, like, you
(08:34):
know, don't try to right theship, so to speak.
I think they call it therighting reflex.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
You know, we want to make sure that we're being
empathetic and there's a wholebunch of different approach to
it that we're being empatheticand there's a whole bunch of
different approach to it.
But one of the things I foundfascinating about it and
behavior analysts should lovethis is that we are looking for
data and the data is like thischange talk yes.
This change talk is like,informs us that, oh you know,
like these-.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Working.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yeah, it's working and, like you know, we're maybe
ready to begin making some sortof plan at some point, because
they're demonstrating likethey're not ambivalent or
resistant I know they don't liketo use that term anymore
resistant but they might be opento some sort of change as
opposed to them saying, well, Ithink things are just fine with
this, or I don't think thisisn't going to work for me.
(09:21):
The issue is not mine, it'sother people, et cetera, et
cetera.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Right, yeah, exactly so it's.
It's very behavioral in thatsense, in that if you really
want to nerd out and take data,you can actually write down or
tally the frequency of counterchange talk or sustained talk
versus change talk, and what wewant to do is we want to put
more emphasis on that changetalk versus change talk.
(09:46):
And what we want to do is wewant to put more emphasis on
that change talk and there'slike different tools and
different things that you can doto try to evoke change talk.
So it is possible.
So, basically, you want theperson to engage in more of
these change talk statements andthat is more indicative of them
actually changing theirbehavior.
So let's do this, this quicklittle exercise, if it's okay
with you, let's do it.
(10:06):
So that everyone can kind of seethe you know the magic in some
way of using a simple technique.
So I'm going to ask you, pauly,to think about a behavior that
you want to change.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
You got it.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
There's so many.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Just pick one.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Yes, okay, yes, I've got one.
Okay, you got one.
Yes, okay, yes, I've got one.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Okay, you got one, all right, perfect.
So, in terms of how importantit is for you to change this
behavior right now, from one to10, 10 being mega important how
important is it for you to, well, first tell me what behavior do
you want to change?
Speaker 1 (10:46):
me what behavior do you want to change?
I want to.
I want to stop.
I want to stop helping peopleso much, right, and helping
people to better help themselves.
I'm really it's about promptdependency, right.
So to stop pushing my help onpeople like literally it's like
them, I right.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Okay, perfect.
Well, you're in the right place.
So you want to stop, you know,pushing your health towards
people.
So, in terms of importance, howimportant is it for you to stop
doing that right now, from zeroto 10?
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Oh, it's very important it's.
For me, it's a 10.
You know I just need to letstuff go.
You know what I mean.
And even if I think something'sbest, yeah, it's a priority in
my life.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Okay, and how ready are you to start doing that now?
Speaker 1 (11:25):
I'm ready to roll, I'm doing it, I'm working on it
now you know.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Okay.
So let's say, just so we canyou know, um, for purposes of
this practice, let's say thatyou mentioned a seven.
Something that I would ask youis so why did you say a seven
and not perhaps a three?
So why didn't you give it alower number than the number
that you're giving it?
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah, I guess it gets me to reflect on my own
behavior.
Why, in terms of like mewanting to do it, or my
readiness, or both.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
So in terms of your readiness.
So let's say you picked a seven.
Why would you pick a seven andnot like a lower number?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Oh, I've been thinking about it for a while,
you know, I've like recognizedhow it hampers me, how it, you
know I inadvertently hurt othersby, you know, by not you know,
engaging them more in their ownchange.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Right.
So right there, simple questionYou're able to come up with all
the reasons for that change,right?
A simple question, and youalready came up with all these
reasons for that change.
So that's what we want to see.
We want to see that and thenbuild momentum on that change
talk.
So these are all the reasonswhy you would want to change.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah, I know that they, they and they give you
like formats to look fordifferent I think they call it
darn cat Right, desire, ability,reason, need you know?
So there's some things that youlook for like that.
They just drop into thesedifferent categories.
But the bottom line is a datapoint to show that people are
maybe moving from beingambivalent, thinking like you
(12:53):
know, or saying words like I'mnot really ready for change or I
don't think it's necessary, I'mfine with the status quo, to
like, all right, the door isopen.
And when the door is open Iknow that you know, because part
of the what is essential to MIare these ORS techniques, right,
like you, just you know askingopen ended questions, affirming
(13:14):
which I would say it's like, hey, we really want to reinforce
that kind of change talk.
Yes, you know, keep it going inin the right direction.
Right, I mean, that's part oflike, we're kind of.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah.
So affirmations it's I like tocall it not just a cheerleader
effect, right?
So you're not just saying like,wow, good job, you're so good at
this, but it's really trying tofind these strengths that the
person has that will allow themto engage in whatever tasks
they're trying to engage in.
So when we're speaking about,for example, like parents, right
is trying to find thesestrengths.
So, for example, I had aconversation with a parent, like
(13:49):
a couple weeks ago, and it wasjust very difficult for them to
engage in this intervention thatI was asking them to engage in.
And I said can you think backat a certain time or a certain
point of your life where you hada similar challenge and you
were able to find techniquesyourself to kind of conquer it?
And then the parent told meyeah, I was able to do this and
I did that, and I'm like, okay,so that's great, right, that
(14:11):
tells me that you have thatcourage, that you have that
persistence.
So how can we use that tointervene effectively in your
son's behaviors?
So it's kind of like lookingfor those strengths, bringing it
out, offering it to them, andthen how can we use that to get
you to where you want to go?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, I mean again, I think it's an EO right,
creating a want for them to movein a direction.
I know that it also has likedifferent processes that are
within it, like engaging people.
Again, we should be, as abehavior analyst, working with
anybody.
We should be engaging ourstakeholders, we're engaging the
learner, we should be engagingthe parents, and then, you know,
(14:48):
after we have them engaged, weneed to, you know, pick a focus.
What are we going to work on?
I think this is, you know, allthis stuff is brought out
through these, you know,open-ended questions to find.
You know, it's like thisdiscovery.
And then, of course, you know,as you were mentioning, like
(15:09):
there's the evoking, uh, makingsure that, um, you know that
they want to change.
Right, they have to have thereasons to change, not us,
because it's still coming backto changing their behavior,
because if they want to producea different result, it requires
behavior change.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
And I think probably that that's the most difficult
part, I think, for us behavioranalysts to do to evoke that
from them to take a step backand instead of saying, hey,
don't provide attention to thisbehavior because this will
happen, instead of that we canask what do you think would
happen if you continue toprovide attention to this
behavior?
Right, that's a differentapproach.
(15:38):
Now we're having the parentsproblem solve themselves and
come up with those solutions.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, as opposed to saying, like man, if you keep
paying attention to it, you'regoing to get more of it and it's
going to make your life harder.
They've got to come up withthose solutions, Absolutely.
So it is a fine line and it,you know, because it's supposed
to be.
You know, no, we're supposed to, um, listen empathetically and
we have to again resist thaturge to tell them the right
(16:05):
thing to do, which is very, very, very challenging when you know
it's like it is the key to it.
The other thing is that whichcan make it a challenge.
This is where the challengewith this whole approach comes
into.
But it's just a challenge thatwe need to overcome and I think
it's a challenge that's set upbecause of our systems.
A lot of times there's abehavior challenge going on and
you know, like, let's say,schools, it's an easy one for
(16:27):
everybody to understand and youget sent into the classroom to
work with a teacher.
Um, they're there for a couplehours or day and they're like
they're required to make changequick.
I'm like this is not the way itworks, you know.
I mean, like you have to in um,in organizational management,
we look at relationships as anaccomplishment, right, it's a
data point to say like, hey, ifwe don't have a good
relationship, if people don'ttrust us, you know, if they
(16:48):
don't see how our help cansupport them for meeting their
needs and producing their valuedoutcomes, then you know again,
we're coercing people, which isexactly the opposite of what we
want to do.
Right, but this is a process andit can be do.
Right, but this is a processand it could be quick, right,
(17:09):
Depending on what the person'shistory is and what they think
of you, and et cetera, et cetera.
Or it could be lengthy, likegetting people to move.
What's been your experiencewith that in terms of how
quickly you've been able to dothings, or maybe some timelines
where it was challenging?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
but over time you made it.
So I think when I've beeninvited to speak in the
conferences, you know, I usuallyget that same question from the
audience, like, oh, this soundsgreat, we love it.
How long does it take, right.
And I'm like, how long does anextinction burst take?
Like who knows Right, like wedon't know.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Behavior change takes time.
In general, it takes time.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
And you know, what I find interesting is that when we
are teaching, when we'reworking one-on-one with our
kiddos right, and we areteaching them, for example,
verbal behavior, where we'retrying to accomplish getting
them to say something ball, forexample we don't rush that
process right.
We shape it, we reinforcesmaller steps, we're patient,
(18:02):
we're reduced.
But then when it, when we useit with adults, when we use it
with the teachers that we'reworking with, or when we use it
with our staff, or even with theparents doing parent coaching
session, we want it to be quick,we want the report to be like
quick and we want them to changereally quick.
But that's not the way that itworks.
It's a process and I think thatwe have to change our mindset,
just as you mentioned.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Well, that's huge.
I mean, this has been kind oflike the torch that I've held
for a long time throughorganizational paper management.
It's like we forget about thescience when we start working
with the adults.
And I know we're forgettingabout it because we blame, we
say they're not doing this orthey're lazy, et cetera, et
cetera.
We don't think about, you know,altering the environment, which
we are a very important part ofthat environment.
So I agree with that.
(18:43):
So much, man, we have to likethat.
You know that, first of all, ifwe're going to get any
sustainable change with ourlearners, almost always the
adults in the local environmentare going to have changed their
behavior period Right.
So in a sense they're learnersas well and we have to involve
them because it's like it's, youknow it's changing behavior, if
(19:04):
you know, unless you're thereworking constantly with a kid
and you can do it, so it justbecomes a habit.
That's very rare, you knowpeople are gonna have to do
engage in different behaviors inorder to maintain that behavior
.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Right and we don't change.
We don't change behaviors perse right.
What is it that we change?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
We change the environment Well, and we change
habits over time.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Exactly, and the parents are part of that
environment.
So that's really what we'redoing essentially, and then,
when we create these empatheticenvironments with parents,
they're more likely to buy in,they're more likely to trust.
And I think another thing thatcan also be a challenge, but
it's something that we have toovercome is that when we go into
a session with a parent, wecontinue to see our client as
(19:48):
the client and not the parent asa client.
We have to learn how to shiftour mindset, and when you are
having a conversation with aparent, the parent or the
teacher becomes your client.
Once you make that switch, itis way easier to apply all these
techniques.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
It is huge.
I mean, when they well, I thinkpart of it is that also the,
the organizational leaders needto recognize this and they need
to see that change talk as adata point.
They need to see therelationship as a data point.
I mean, how can we measure thatrelationship?
Well, maybe it's.
They asked us a question, theyreached out to us, you know.
(20:25):
Ask us when we're going to becoming, you know.
But you know again that changetalk becomes something to say.
You know what we are moving inthe right direction, because all
they're going to look at is thebottom line result.
And is that child?
You know, because, from anorganizational behavior
management perspective, learnerbehavior is a result, yeah, as a
result of, you know, other, theenvironment, the adults in that
(20:49):
environment, and changing theirbehavior.
So when we everybody's justlooking at that result and
they're like, well, you're notdoing your job, well, hold on,
there are a chain of things thatneed to occur before it can
happen.
We can probably produce ashort-term result, but it's
going to be using coercion right, forcing somebody to do
something, like suggesting itstrongly you need to do this and
(21:10):
now it doesn't maintain.
Yeah, it won't maintain.
Now, should we ever do that?
Yeah, I think that there aretimes where we just have to get
people do something, likethere's a crisis, there's
something going on that thelearner is going to be hurt,
right, and there's been a lot ofdebate about, like assent and
consent.
I think people are finallycoming back around and say,
listen, I think assent is great.
It aligns perfectly with myvalues in terms of involving our
(21:33):
stakeholders.
But there are times when youjust need people to do something
because it's dangerous for them.
Right, it can be harmful ifthey don't change, with the goal
being like, if you do use thatman, you better get them in
touch with some sort of positivereinforcement very quickly for
doing it, otherwise they're notgoing to want you around,
nothing's going to sustain, etcetera, et cetera.
You know.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Right and and I think it lies in the how um, so we
have to get it done, but how wedo it can really change
everything, right?
So it's again it comes out.
It has to do with the way thatwe communicate these things to
the parents.
It's not like we're never goingto communicate with them about
something that has to be done orsomething that we really think
(22:13):
that is urgent.
But again, it's in the howright.
And another question that Ioften get is well, what happens
if the parent just doesn't wantto, you know, to do the
intervention?
We've tried this.
We tried, you know, reflectivelistening.
We try summarizations, we triedall of these great techniques
and they still don't want to.
And I always tell them well, ifthey don't want to, then they
(22:35):
don't want to.
That, that's it.
End of end of story.
We don't have to do it.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yeah, I like to think , you know, I, I, I agree with
that.
But I like also like to saythat for these, I have these
four hats of leadership.
I'd mentioned leading I'veleading, training, coaching,
managing.
They all serve a differentfunction.
Right, it's really about thefour term contingency.
It means that we have to dosomething more or less
differently, because we alwaysthink through the three term but
we have to think about MOs andwhat do we need to do to create
(23:00):
a want for that parent?
Whatever we're doing right nowis not working.
Can it be done?
Yes, I mean, I'm certain thatit can.
There's research on how to doit.
So it's kind of like peoplesaying that, um, well, I'm
reinforcing them, but the butit's not working.
Well, it's, you know.
It means that you're just not areinforcer.
You know it can't not work ifit is.
And it means that if we are notengaging our stakeholders in
(23:25):
change, it means we need to dosomething more or lesser
differently, though ourapproaches, our behaviors are
not producing that desiredresults.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Right, right, and I think another thing that I also
like to speak about, like duringmy book and the trainings, is
on the trans-theoretical model.
So this is something that wasborrowed into motivational
interviewing because it worksreally well together.
But this talks about thedifferent phases of change.
So in the pre contemplation,for example, is where you're
like what you know, I reallydon't have a drinking problem or
(23:55):
problem at all or whatever itis.
Or my child has been, you know,I don't know like thrown out of
like seven schools, but he's aboy, he'll grow out of it, kind
of thing.
So that mentality is thepre-contemplation, like what
problem?
A parent or a person who is inthis phase of change?
You're not going to like startgiving them interventions
(24:15):
because they haven't evenacknowledged that there is a
problem.
So I think that looking at allthese phases of change
pre-contemplation, contemplation, preparation, you know, and the
rest of them is so important.
We have to identify where thisclient or this parent lies in
order to then come up withinterventions that will suit
their needs.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
For behavior analysts .
There's action and maintenanceright the last two parts of
those and it's very behavioranalytically oriented.
You know there's also researchcalled stages of concern that
align with this.
I use it with the educators alot and saying, like man, like
they're not, you want them tochange, produce this outcome
right now.
They don't care aboutinnovating learning for the
(24:56):
students right now if they'rebarely surviving and they can't
keep their head about.
So you got to start with whattheir reinforcers are and what
their values are.
I like to use the act matrix inin in collaboration with this.
I think it's such a great waybecause you can just use all the
principles of motivationalinterviewing and make it kind of
concrete and kind of startsorting stuff out, finding out
(25:17):
what's important to them andwhat's showing up for them and
when they engage in thisbehavior.
You know, does that align withtheir values?
What else is it?
It's like a perfect, likecompliment to motivational
interviewing, to, to to do it Um.
I mean, we, we actually use it,um, anika, and I use it when we
go out to train um with, youknow, school leaders.
We have massive amount ofschool leaders and people buy in
(25:38):
drastically when with thatvisual and, of course course,
using the principles of uh,motivation interviewing.
You can still do it with a group.
Uh, you know it becomes, youknow, hard to like really
measure, like everybody'sengaging in change talk, but you
know you're, you're doingactive student responding and
they're, you know they'retalking out, they're porting out
and you can begin to see theshift and, uh, you know how
(25:59):
they're approaching things.
So I think it's, I would loveto see some you know research on
it as a group.
Have you ever seen any researchlinked to like group MI?
Speaker 2 (26:08):
stuff.
I haven't no, not as a group, Ihaven't seen it.
That would be interesting.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Yeah, I think it'd be fun, but there are a lot of
things that the MI can beembedded into.
Do you find yourself using thisin your everyday life with your
own kids and your own family?
Because it's gotta be difficult, because there's all the
emotion caught up into it, youknow.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, so I would.
This is a disclaimer don't useit with your significant other,
okay, cause it will definitelybackfire.
I have a skid that I do with myhusband, but it's like a pseudo
skid.
Obviously, he's not as thatcompliant, but yeah, I mean, you
know, I don't think you shoulduse anything on your significant
other because it's always goingto backfire.
(26:52):
But with my kids, however, Ihave used more of the open ended
questions, right?
So, as a mom and as a behavioranalyst, you know, I mean, I
think that sometimes I'm very,like, solution focused.
So, let's say, my child tellsme, oh, someone was bullying me,
or this is going on, and Iquickly jump to it Well, this is
what you should do, and this isinstead of asking well, what do
(27:14):
you think would have beensomething that you could have
told this person when they toldyou that?
Right?
So here I'm allowing him toproblem solve.
I'm allowing him to problemsolve, I'm allowing him to come
up with his own solutions thatmay be better than the solutions
I'm going to give him, and he'smore likely to run with those
solutions because it's hissolutions.
So I have used some of thesetechniques with my kids, for
(27:37):
sure.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
It is so powerful.
I mean, in leadership, I have asaying that if they author it,
they'll own it right.
So you don't want to do thingsto people, you want to do things
with them and so they need tosee what's in it for them and
they need to have input to that.
I mean, it's so simple but it'sso powerful.
But I think the big challengefor people with this approach
(27:59):
again, you know, like wanting topush your own agenda, uh, you
know, being patient, um, I mean,we really need to be taking a
look at like their, theirfeedback, their responses, are
feedback for us.
It's data.
Everything they're doing isdata and we're should be
constantly adjusting ourapproach, like what you said
earlier, with the people saying,well, it's not working.
(28:21):
Well, that's data.
For you, what you're doing isnot working.
It means you need to dosomething more or less or
differently, and it means,typically, that they need to
circle back to the open-endedquestions they might've tried to
push too fast.
Right, with, you know, with theplanning phase.
Right, because we still need tomake sure that we are actually
evoking some sort of change.
(28:42):
And if we don't get, if wedon't evoke, you know, reasons
for change, then going into theplanning phase is not going to
be good, because it means thatthey are reinforcing them, right
.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, exactly, and you know, I think also like when
we work with parents in pushingthe agenda, because another
question that I've gotten alsois well, this sounds great, but
aren't we just manipulatingpeople to do what we want?
And I'm like, yeah, I mean, itsounds like it right.
I think in any science or inanything you do, you have that
(29:14):
thing where you can actuallycoerce someone.
But what prevents us from doingthat in ABA, for example, it's
our ethics.
So in motivational interviewingwe have something called the
spirit of motivationalinterviewing.
So our goals have to be alignedwith the parent's goals as well
, because if not, we're pushingour agenda.
We have to respect theirautonomy.
We have to also speak abouttheir challenges and speak about
(29:37):
their goals and try to alignwith them, so we're not just
doing what we think is important.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, I mean, it's supposed to be collaborative,
it's supposed to have the intentto empower people, right,
because we want autonomy.
So like, yeah, I don't.
I mean, and I think that youknow, I think that there's no
reason that it shouldn't betransparent, like, hey, here's
what I'm gonna do, I'm gonnafind out what's important to you
.
Some questions, so you know,because a lot of people don't
know their own values, right,they don't understand, maybe,
(30:03):
the ramifications or the rippleeffects of their behavior across
the people they love, acrosstheir own life.
So it's kind of like, I thinkit's kind of like making it
salient to them, it's likebringing all the stuff to the
surface so they essentially haveall the data to work with to
make a more of an informeddecision.
Is the way that I think aboutit, you know.
(30:24):
Otherwise, you know, I I thinkwe could say anything is
manipulative, and I don't thinkit's manipulative, you know,
especially if they understand,like, here's, what I'm going to
do is why I mean, you're drivingthe ship and I'm going to be
asking you questions that youknow that, that get you to think
about all these outcomes andstuff like that.
So we can, if you're notgetting changed with them again.
(30:49):
I think it means that we stillneed to do something more to us
or differently.
I want to say that we can, butthere are always going to be
people who have a long history.
They don't like the way that Ilook, you know.
They don't like my tone ofvoice or something like that.
Maybe they heard somethingabout me that they don't feel so
great, right?
So they're just resistant orthey work for another behavior
and it's got nothing to do withme.
So it's like we got to maybetap out and maybe have somebody
(31:11):
else step in.
But that's the same thing withany learners, Right?
We all have people like it'schallenging, right?
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Right, yeah, polly, I can tell you don't like to, you
know, to give up.
You're like, no, there's stillsomething we have to do.
And I like that Right, and I'malso like that.
I think it gets to a pointwhere we have to learn to tap
out.
We just have to learn, like youknow, there's that, that's it.
We've already exhaustedeverything because guess what?
The other families that we workwith need us and we're going to
(31:39):
burn out, and that's a realthing.
That's happening in our fields.
A lot of behavior analysts aregoing into gardening or like
random things because they'rejust so burnt out.
So there has to be a pointwhere we're just like okay, you
know, we respect that you're notready.
It's not that they don't wantto, it's that they're just not
ready right now.
So you can contact me when youare ready and I'll be here for
(32:00):
you.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Yeah, holler at me, dog.
I mean I just think that it's.
You know, I think if you'regetting I always, as a leader in
different organizations, right,I never wanted, I always wanted
to bring out the best in peopleand so, like I didn't want
somebody to quit or you know, Ididn't want, I wanted them to
feel good and help them produceresults.
(32:21):
But I recognize you can't geteverybody right, but I always
worry that people are going tofall back on that as an excuse,
right?
So I have it in my mind.
It's like the 80, 20 rule, likeI believe, like you're being
successful, you should begetting at least.
If you're getting 80% on thepeople on board and it's working
, then you're, you're doing theright thing, right.
If you're getting less thanthat, then you might need to
(32:44):
shape your stuff up.
If you're getting nine out of10, I just don't think we're
going to get 10 out of 10 people.
You know, just because, likeyou said, like there could be
different things going at a time, maybe later on, it could just
be a number of variables that wecan't control.
But I think you know, shoot forthat rule of thumb.
You know the 80-20 rule and youknow, I think you'll be okay.
Yeah, so where do you see MI inthe future in terms of, you
(33:07):
know, in our field, like, whatwould you like to see you know,
how would you like to see thefield embrace it?
What would make it better forthe field or you know, to really
disseminate this approach,because not many people are
aware of it and when they hearabout it it just makes sense to
them.
They're like oh, this makes alot of sense.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
So, you know, what's interesting is that I started
doing this, I started doing thecourses and obviously when we
see something new in our fields,we're like, oh, something
different than what we'velearned so far.
So of course we're attractiveto it.
And then a lot of people youknow have have taken my courses
and have, you know, read my bookand everything.
But I think that one of themost important things in
(33:49):
motivational interviewing ispracticing it Like it's not just
one training, it's not just onepodcast, like you really have.
It's um, it's sort of like away of life.
I know it sounds very dramatic,but it is the way that it is.
You have to be very consciousof, of how you're coming across
and when you are communicatingwith others.
So I would love to see itintegrated into university
(34:10):
programs in ABA.
I really think that it will dowonders to the graduate students
and just embedded in moreconferences and more people just
speaking about MI and andcommunicating more effectively.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
I agree, I mean, I mean, look, it's all part of
like finding out what people'sreinforcers are again finding
out what's blocking their accessto them, you know, letting them
see that stuff.
I mean I mean, look, it's allpart of like finding out what
people's reinforcers are againfinding out what's blocking
their access to them, you know,letting them see that stuff, I
think.
But it really does require, youknow, it requires a lot of
practice.
I mean just even the part with,like you know, you know,
resisting the urge to, like youknow, change and being
nonjudgmental with stuff orresisting the urge to change
(34:47):
them.
And it has all these, you knowthese, these principles that you
got to follow.
You know it's got the four, thefour processes.
You know the engaging and andand focusing and planning and or
the evoking and planning andstuff like that, and of course
there's the oars.
But then there's stuff that youjust brought up, like you know,
the changes, the stages ofchange.
You know there's a lot ofmoving parts that you have to be
aware of to become better at.
(35:09):
Now I know that you wrote abook on it that pairs behavior
analysis with MI, which I thinkthat was the first book to do
that.
Is that correct?
Am I correct in saying that?
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yes, I guess.
So If someone has data that iscontrary to that, let me know.
I mean, I don't want to be like, hey, I was the first one, but,
um, yes, and in writing thatbook, you know.
And again, when I started I'mvery like, straightforward, I'm
very like, you know, um, honestwith with these things.
When I started embeddingmotivational interviewing into
our fields, I was a littlescared because I know how our
(35:47):
field is Right and it's kind oflike we're bringing something
that's that's psychological innature, that well, how do you
objectively define it?
So I was a little scared.
I was like, oh my gosh, I'mgoing to put this out there.
They're going to say I'm a badbehavior analyst, but it was the
contrary, right.
And I think that in the book Ikind of explain or I
conceptualize some of thesemotivational interviewing terms
(36:10):
into ABA terminology, just sopeople can make that connection.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Yeah, just kind of like what I said finding out
what people's reinforcers are.
You know, absolutely.
I mean, you're gauging, andwhen you're asking those
questions, essentially it shouldbe, you know, mos.
You know we're creating a wantfor change, you know, and I want
you, you know, to do more ofthis and do less of that, but
based on what their reinforcersare, and that should be guiding
our questions to begin with.
Yeah, you know, I know that ourfield's been like that for a
(36:36):
while.
I've had that issue with youknow some things as well, but at
some point, like if it'sworking, it's working.
I mean, it's also coming downto your behavior, right?
So it's looking at our behaviorand looking at the result, and
if it's producing that result,all right, we can put a lens on
what we're doing.
You know, right.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
And, at the end of the day, I think that if you are
, like, truly a behavior analystand you see the world through
those behavior analysis like,you know that behavior analysis
like lens, you know that thingsare conceptualized in whatever
way people want to conceptualizethem, but at the end it's
behavior right.
Like, at the end we can defineit with with ABA terminology
(37:14):
because we really believe thatit's all based on these terms
right.
So I think it's just findinghow to do that, like even in my
psychology world, because, sinceI am a clinical psychologist
and I'm also BCBA, in mypsychology world, when I work
with with clients that have, youknow, depression, that have
different personality disorders,I use a lot of ABA techniques.
(37:35):
They're just called differently.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
I agree.
I mean, when we're doing thingslike helping people, like you
know, look at functionalrelationships of looking at
their own behavior and theimpact on the environment,
that's parts it's still clientcentered, youcentered.
We're still looking for abehavioral change because if we
still got to come up with a plan, if we're going to do it, we're
engaging in MOs.
I mean it's still ethical andrespectful treatment of people.
(37:59):
I think it aligns very wellwith what we have going on in
the field and even our thoughtsand our feelings.
We can treat those like they'recovert behaviors.
And so, you know, we're sayinglike, hey, make sure you're
resisting the urge to write thereflex.
Well, we can, you know, beobservers of that and we value
MI, we value that we want toengage people in their own
change.
Then we can become betterobservers of our behavior.
(38:20):
Hey, when I think and feel thisway, engage in this behavior,
that's when I try to.
You know, I try to make thechange, I try to force it and
realize that you know what thisis not okay.
You know this is misaligned, myvalues.
I need to engage in replacementbehavior that's going back to
listening empathetically, that'sasking open-ended questions,
that's helping them exploretheir own behaviors and, you
(38:40):
know, maybe making the linkbetween their behaviors and
their impact on the environment.
So I think it gets verybehavioral in nature.
If something's working, we canframe it behaviorally.
Just because it hasn't been,maybe done at different levels,
doesn't mean it can't be, and Ijust love this concept.
So what's coming up for you?
I know that you have CrystalMinds, right, so you're the
(39:02):
founder of Crystal Minds.
Yes, it's in Miami, and youguys, you have a clinic or are
you in home?
Is it both?
Speaker 2 (39:08):
So we do both.
We have a clinic, we have twoclinics, one in Broward, one in
Dade, and, and you know we'vehad it open for about 14 and a
half years already.
And congrats on that.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
That's a rarity to have a business that long.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
I remember you sent me that.
I was like wow, Okay, this, youknow this kind of reinforces my
efforts.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Yeah, that's a.
That's a very challenging thing, and do you do like any private
consulting?
You do any training?
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Yes, so I have courses, I have webinars that I
provide.
I'm also going to be a Faba.
I'm going to be speaking aboutmotivational interviewing in
Spanish, so that's somethingthat I've wanted to also do, I
think, for the Spanish speakers.
You know, we don't have a lotof, like you know, these
webinars and these interestingthings, so I definitely want to
do something more in Spanish and, yeah, that's basically what
(39:59):
I'm doing.
I also do coaching, so I doconsultation for private
practices.
So private practices that havea couple of behavior analysts
and they want to get some, youknow, consultation, some
trainings and things like that.
I also do that.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Oh, very cool, that's awesome.
So that'll be, and we'll makesure we drop your contact
information in the link.
So I'm excited about all thisstuff.
You know we have our coursecoming out.
I think it's, you know,developing coursework,
especially around something likethis.
We're developing coursework,especially around something like
this.
We're calling it a primer tomotivational interviewing.
I call it a primer because itcan just go so deep, but I feel
(40:33):
like it's.
You know.
We have a bunch of tools thatcome with it to help people,
like downloadables, you know,like task aids, essentially to
help.
I would just encourage everybody, like you know, don't wait for
the course.
Go out right now and take alook at some of Monica's stuff,
you know.
Pick up some of my books andwhen the course comes out, make
sure you take a look at that.
You have to build fluency.
This stuff requires repetition,but it is powerful.
(40:55):
For my own consulting business,using these approaches has just
opened up the world by askingquestions.
Even when we meet with ourclients or potential clients, it
is like by the time they'relike, yeah, let's go, we need to
make the change, because peoplejust don't know what they don't
know.
So it's a nice approach togetting them to reflect on.
You know the change that needsto happen.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Yeah, and I know that you're a boxer right, and I
believe that it was Mike Tysonthat said you know, everyone has
a plan until they get punchedin the face, right that's right.
And I think that you know a lotof the times we take these
webinars and then we go andwe're like, yes, we're going to
do it.
And then we are there with theparents and we're like, oh crap,
what do we say now?
(41:37):
What's the reflection?
And we don't know what's goingto happen.
Right, because everyone isdifferent.
That's why these ongoingconsultations, that's why these
ongoing coachings are soimportant, in order to build
that fluency, because you don'tknow what's going to happen on
the other side of that door onceyou meet that person.
And then you know it's soimportant to reflect back and
speak with someone that knowsabout motivational interviewing
(41:59):
that can coach you even furtherinto that.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Absolutely, man.
We got to build fluency withthis stuff and so, yeah, you're
right, don't give up on it justbecause you went dude.
It really takes.
It takes practice.
I'm sure you're still learning,you know, I know I'm definitely
still learning.
You know, creating these likekey habits, always reflecting on
what I'm doing.
And am I pushing people againresisting, I'm resisting my urge
(42:23):
to always help people, you know, creating an urge for them to
want to help themselves andreflect on the change that they
have to make.
So well, monica, it's been ablast having you on here.
I know that we will be seeingeach other at Faba, hopefully,
and I'm sure we'll talk, youknow, before that.
And you know, just, I know I'mgoing to drop your information
here, but, like, is there anemail?
(42:44):
Best approach to reach out toyou?
Just so you know, maybe somepeople don't want to have to go
check on the in the notes.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
Yeah, so I'm really active on social media so you
can look for the MI doctor ordoctor like DR Monica Gilbert
and you can contact me there andask me for you know, my website
or any other things that you,any questions you have or just
share any interests you have.
I always love connecting withother behavior analysts.
(43:10):
And and again, thank you, polly, for having me here.
Hopefully we can do somethingtogether in the future.
I'm really excited about that.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
So, yeah, All right, yeah, let us know.
If you guys want Monica and Ito work together on something,
let us know, man, we'll probablycrush it.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
We'll make it fun, We'll make it entertaining.
I think we we bring likedifferent perspectives.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
So yeah, definitely do that.
All right, cool, all right,monica, good to see you.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Thank you.
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