May 9, 2025 • 50 mins
In this compelling episode, Dr. Paulie and co-host AJ Rinaldi engage with Kyle McDowell, a former Fortune 10 executive turned leadership coach and bestselling author of Begin With WE. Kyle shares his journey from leading tens of thousands in corporate America to pioneering a leadership philosophy centered on collective empowerment.
They delve into the pitfalls of "me-oriented" leadership and explore Kyle's "10 WEs" framework—principles designed to dismantle dysfunction and foster a culture of excellence. Through candid discussions, Kyle emphasizes the importance of authenticity, accountability, and leading by example to inspire teams and drive meaningful change.
Whether you're navigating the complexities of organizational leadership or seeking to cultivate a more inclusive and effective team environment, this episode offers actionable insights grounded in real-world experience.
🔑 Key Takeaways:
- Transitioning from individualistic to collective leadership mindsets
- Implementing the "10 WEs" to build cohesive and high-performing teams
- Embracing vulnerability and authenticity as leadership strengths
- Strategies for transforming toxic work cultures into thriving communities
For more on Kyle's leadership philosophy and resources, visit kylemcdowellinc.com.
Pick up a copy of the #1 bestseller: Adaptive Intelligence: The Evolution of Emotional Intelligence Through the Proven Power of Behavior Science
The Behavioral Toolbox equips those charged with supporting behavior change in schools with practical applications of the science of human behavior for making a positive difference in the workplace. In this case, the classroom and school!
Be sure to subscribe to Dr. Paulie's Heart & Science YouTube channel for a variety of content related to behavior science and bringing out the best in yourself and others.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Heart and Science of Leadership, where
evidence meets empathy.
Co-hosted by Dr Paul Gavone, aWall Street Journal and USA
Today bestselling author, and AJRinaldi, a John Maxwell Team
certified leadership coach, thispodcast blends the human side
of leadership withevidence-based practices,
demonstrating that leadershipisn't about title or intent.
(00:24):
It's about impact.
And now here are your hosts,pauly and AJ.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
All right, welcome back to the Heart and Science of
Leadership podcast.
I'm your host, dr Pauly, andI'm here with AJ.
How you doing, brother?
Yeah, how are you Pauly?
Oh, I'm good man, I'm good,okay.
Well, so, per our last podcast,I talked about changing the
format to see what it's going tobe like to interview some very,
very successful leaders outhere.
And we actually have a verysuccessful leader today, and
(00:54):
that is Kyle McDowell.
And Kyle is a former corporateleader, former Fortune 10
executive, very cool man,keynote speaker, media
personality and USA Todaybestselling author of the book
Begin With the we.
So, kyle, I want to welcome youto our podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Hey man Paul, it's great to be here, good to spend
some time with both you and AJ.
I'm really grateful for theopportunity.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Yeah, thanks, man, and congratulations on getting
your book to be so successful.
I checked it out on Amazon, man.
It's still doing very well.
You've had it out for a fewyears, so that's pretty cool,
man.
I love seeing people out therespreading the good word on good
leadership Because, as we allknow, good leadership can make a
huge difference and badleadership man can put people in
the dirt.
I've seen it do a lot of badthings to people, but I don't
(01:39):
think it's bad people.
It's often bad behavior, right,well said bad people.
It's often bad behavior, right,well said.
Yeah, Thanks, man.
So, um, so, kyle, I'd like toyou know, we, we spoke a little
bit off, uh, you know off, uh,this recording here to talk
about what you want to focus onand I, it seems like we we share
some very common thoughts, andthat is, uh, we believe that
(01:59):
leadership should really revolvearound principles, right, um,
but before we get into that,before we get into that, what it
should do, tell me some of thestruggles that you see out there
with leadership, right, and whywe need to really focus on
principles more.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Yeah Well, so just for some context for your
audience, I spent nearly 30years in corporate America and
it's like so many essentially, Iwould guess, most of your
audience, if not all.
I started from really reallyhumble beginnings in a tiny
cubicle for a regional bank herein Florida and kind of worked
my way up the corporate ladder,ultimately to leading tens of
thousands of employees my lasttwo roles I had about 30,000
(02:35):
employees and I will tell you,the first 20 years of that
journey were wildly differentthan the last 10.
I managed to deliver reallygood results, if not great
results, throughout the bulk ofmy career, but the first 20
years left me with more apathythan anything else.
And then I realized at I hadthis epiphany moment that I
(02:56):
refer to as now, which kind ofcompelled me to write the book
and set out on this journey thatI'm on now, which is to rid the
corporate world of its toxicways and shitty leaders, because
I was that guy for the first 20years, so I can relate to why
so many of us find ourselves inthat trap where we end up
behaving in ways that weessentially loathed prior to
(03:18):
being in this new position ofauthority or becoming a boss air
quotes.
So for me, the biggesttransition in this epiphany was
grounded in these 10 principlesthat I have.
I didn't create them, Idiscovered them.
They were already out there.
I just happened to put them ina little package.
10 sentences each begin withthe word we.
I'm not super creative, so wehave the 10 we's and these
(03:41):
principles are essentially acultural currency that allows
every single member of the team,from the newest intern to the
most senior C-level fella or galin the organization.
It gives them the same ability,empowerment, the right to bring
their best selves to work everysingle day.
We're not trying to sound likethe smartest people in the world
(04:01):
.
We're not trying to have themost stark shirt and shiny shoes
.
We want to make a difference.
And the only way to make adifference, at least in a team
environment, in my mind, is toalign around principles and hold
yourselves accountable, eachother accountable, not just top
down.
We all have to be in the sameposition to hold each other
accountable, challenge eachother, pick each other up when
it doesn't go well, and that'swhat these principles aim to do.
(04:22):
Is they create kind of aguardrail or a fence, if you
will, that kind of modulates howwe behave.
But I've found mostorganizations do a great job
teaching people how to do theirjob like the X's and O's, the
SOPs, the procedures but veryfew really, really spend a lot
of effort, time and money on howwe behave inside of the team,
not just get our work done.
I think it's equally important.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Oh well, it's the most important thing.
I'm a behavior scientist, soit's all about behavior.
All results require behaviorand there's different ways to
get behavior going.
A couple of things that yousaid, and I'm going to AJ.
Let me get this first questionout, man, because I'm going to
bounce it back to you.
Next man, just the title we Ilove that, right, right, because
we got to make it about us.
Uh, I love this quote byrichard branson, and that is it
(05:06):
says clients do not come first,employees come first.
If you take care of youremployees, they will take care
of your clients.
I don't, I don't understandthat.
It's the simplest premise, butit is so true.
But I find that to your point.
I've seen so much bad leadershipout there, not bad people.
I call ask clownery.
By the way, in my book it'sactually it's an acronym for
(05:29):
something.
Yeah, my book was originallygoing to be called shitty
leadership, but I called itpositional authority, ain't
leadership.
Anyways, I see a lot of toxicityout there, bad behavior and
people engage in this behaviorbecause they produce results.
They think it's working forthem, and it is, if you're just
measuring it on results.
But as we all know here,there's better ways to get much
better results right when we canincrease morale, increase
(05:50):
performance, increase retention,decrease medical issues.
Just live ethically right andI'm sure you're going to talk
about that with the weed.
But can you talk a little bitabout what does it mean to be
toxic?
What do these environments looklike?
Because I want to see thejuxtaposition between.
Maybe some people can relate towhat they're feeling in their
own organization, because somepeople might think like am I
(06:12):
crazy?
Is it supposed to be this way?
I used to think that and I'mlike no, this is not the way
shit should be.
So what do those environmentslook like?
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Well, it doesn't have to be.
I couldn't agree more.
But the way out of that kind ofshitty environment that so many
of us have found ourselves inat least at one point in our
career, it starts with a choice.
We've got to make a choice tolead differently, to participate
in a team environmentdifferently, because this whole
command and control style theone that I embraced for 20 years
it doesn't work any longer, atleast over a sustained period of
(06:42):
time.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
And what's that look like though?
The command and control.
That's what I want to hear.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah.
So I'll cop out and give a moreacademic definition, which I'm
sure you would appreciate, butthen also I think we can align
on maybe more practical terms.
So Glassdoor and MIT partneredto form this thing called the
Culture 500.
And their goal was to uncover,using 30 million profiles from
Glassdoor, they wanted touncover why it is that employee,
(07:08):
why do folks leave their role,why do they quit their company
by the way, as you know, theyrarely quit a company, usually
quit your boss.
And they came up, they landed onthree or four characteristics
that are the main drivers forturnover.
The number one is toxic culture, and toxic culture is so kind
of like hard to define for some.
(07:30):
So they go a layer deeper andI'll probably get the three or
four wrong, but just know thatat a high level it's
unmanageable workload, unfairexpectations, unclear
communication.
And the last one is lack ofmanager support.
Those four items, and when youput them on paper which I've
done because I'm that nerd whenyou put them on paper, there's
an obvious theme among thosefour items it's leadership, it's
(07:52):
people.
And they go on and they useactually this one's from Gallup.
They say why my company cares alot about my overall wellbeing
and the numbers go up and downand they're probably at
historical lows at this point,which I think is such a cop-out.
I've never met a person namedcompany.
I've never met anybody namedleadership or management, to
(08:12):
your point, the intro that yougave man.
It's like these are all people,not necessarily even bad people
, but they're part of the cyclewhich I know I was, and I'm sure
many in your audience, maybeyou guys as well part of the
cycle.
Well, where I want to getpromoted, I want to do more, I
want to make more, I want to getthese fancy titles, so I start
to emulate the shitty behaviorthat I really don't care for,
(08:33):
but I recognize when I emulateit I have a better chance of
being asked to do more, becausethe people making those
decisions to put me in theposition to take on more get a
fancier title, more comp.
Those decision makers are theones whose behavior I dislike,
but I know to endear myself tothem.
I should probably behavesimilarly.
And so this cycle creates andit's over and over again until
(08:54):
someone stands up and saysenough, we don't have to have
the Sunday scaries to the pointwhere we got to take medication.
We don't need to.
We should not hate our jobs.
Now, guys, I'm not naive.
People aren't going to springout of bed every single day and
run to work.
It's called work, it's notcalled vacation.
I get that, but I do believeit's an obligation of those in
any type of position ofleadership has nothing to do
with title, by the way.
(09:14):
We endeavor and push each otherto create that environment
where we all come to the sameconclusion that, well, if we're
going to be here 100,000 hoursof our life, we better make the
most of it, and that involvesbeing more human than robotic,
which is what so manyorganizations encourage us to do
is become something other thanourselves.
It's a real shame, well.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
Cal, you made a really critical point there.
When you talk about theorganization, like there's
humans behind the organization,sometimes we just throw those
blanket statements out Well,like the organization decided,
or we're going in this direction, and it's never the bricks and
mortar right.
It always comes down to humanbeings.
So, out of those 10 we's thatyou've kind of crafted, have you
(09:58):
found that organizationsstruggle with one in particular
more than the other?
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Yeah, and I'm going to play back what you said,
because even inherently in whatyou said I think is kind of a
rub.
It's like you said, whatorganizations have a hard time?
No organization has ever had ahard time with any of my
principles.
The leaders inside of thoseorganizations are the ones that
might kind of push back, andthere is one, it's number eight.
(10:23):
We number eights, we challengeeach other and it was the
toughest for me to grasp soreally quickly background.
So I established theseprinciples the night before I
was going to meet with the top40 or 50 leaders inside of a new
organization that I had kind ofinherited.
I joined this company 60, 90days ago.
It's about 14,000 employees, $7billion program for the federal
(10:44):
government and that was mychance to get in front of this
group of leaders for the firsttime the night before.
It was a real gut check momentfor me.
It's like I made a personalcommitment that I was no longer
going to leave with that commandand control style.
I needed to find a way toresonate differently other than
my business card.
So the night before I was in myhotel room and I started.
I knew I needed to put someslides together, because I was
on stage the next morning andthese principles started to come
(11:07):
to me.
And they came to me after Iasked myself two questions what
are the experiences that you'vereally really taken away?
Value?
And you felt as if you werevalued.
You felt like you were acontributing member to this team
.
Pause, and then the other anglewas okay, let's think about
those scenarios that left youfeeling the exact opposite less
than whole, a cog in a machine,not actually valued for the work
that you do.
(11:27):
You don't feel like you'recontributing something bigger
than yourself.
And from that I ended up withthese 10 sentences and the one
that is by far the toughest forfolks to grasp in.
Well, not grasp but actuallylive every single day, including
me.
I struggled with it.
I still do.
From time to time we challengeeach other because historically,
as you guys know, thechallenges almost always come
(11:48):
from on high and they flow inone direction only If we're
lucky we might be able tochallenge occasionally up this
direction, but we're going totread lightly because we know of
the retribution that could comeRarely.
Is there encouragement of peerschallenging peers?
If we're going to be a greatteam, we need to hold each other
accountable.
It's just that simple.
We can't have one persondragging behind and expect one
(12:10):
person the boss to be the one tosay hey, man, you're not
pulling your own weight.
So we challenge each other isincredibly important, but it's
chaos without we number nine,which is we embrace challenge.
Can't have one without theother.
So those two in combination, tome, have been the most pivotal
and the most profound in termsof transformation, not only in
myself, but with those I workwith as well.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
But with so much content out there now and so
much dialogue about us needingto have that vertical feedback,
feedback needs to be freeflowing.
Why do you think it is thatleaders continue to struggle,
either being proactive andseeking that feedback from the
people below them in the orgchart, or just developing that
trust from the people below themin the org chart, or just
developing that trust from thepeople in their inner circle to
(12:52):
be able to hear thatconstructive feedback.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
It's a great question and, my man, I think you really
highlight what is the Achillesheel to bosses becoming great
leaders, and that's ego.
It's ego.
It was for me and I see it inthose that I keep a small.
I keep five or six executivesthat I do individual one-on-one
coaching with and without outingany one of them, is obvious to
(13:15):
me.
The ego manifests itself in away that is a threat to my
authority.
I have to have all the answersbecause I make more than you and
I'm put in this position ofauthority.
It's expected that I knoweverything, but not really.
No one expects perfection outof their boss.
They expect fairness, theyexpect authenticity, they expect
(13:35):
us being relatable.
So when the lack of ego resultsin the exact opposite of those
things, my voice must be theloudest.
I must have the right answers,because I said so is almost
always the fallback in case Iget challenged.
But I tell you, man, and it wasthe most, it was a really
transitional moment for me whenI realized and this was getting
(13:57):
20 years into my career I didn'thave to be the smartest guy in
the room, I didn't have to haveall the answers, I didn't need
to be right, I needed us to findright.
I didn't need to be right, weneeded to do right.
So, if, if, especially in thosethat have not been in their
career for a long period of time, because they feel as if, when
they get promoted or hired intothis position of authority,
there's these, there are theseexpectations that you know
(14:18):
everything.
You just can't say I don't know.
But but when we realize thevalue that comes and the
relatability that comes when wetell our teams man, I just don't
know, what do you think?
I'd love your insight on this.
You've been here longer than Ihave.
You must have more informationor intel than I have.
I'd love to hear that.
And then being candid and openand transparent about that
(14:39):
feedback.
So if you say something, AJ, Isay hey, AJ, man, what do you
think about scenario X?
And you give me a solution andin the back of my mind I know is
harebrained, let's just usethat example.
I have a choice at that point.
I could either shut you downand say no, that's not, we're
moving on, or I can say you know, let's think more about that,
and once we have a little moredialogue, I say you know what?
(15:00):
That's probably not the routewe're going to take, and here's
the most important part of myanswer.
But here's why.
Here's why Because everyonegets quiet and refuses to raise
their hand after you've raisedit two, three, four times and
it's not acknowledged.
So once we lose the ego and areopen to other people's point of
view, their perspectives, theirpushback, their challenges, I
think results are unlocked somuch more easily.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah, it just seems so simple.
But of course I've also been onthe other side.
We've all engaged in Ask Clownor we've all done things because
again, it produces results forus and if you get dumped into
that culture you're like this isthe way things.
I personally never cared abouthierarchy and moving up man, I
always thought people up therewere Ask Clowns to begin with.
I never really liked, I justthink I had just a bunch of bad
(15:53):
leaders.
Man, I'm like I don't want tobe like these people, but I
realized that after unpackingstandards for creating
leadership courses andcertification, I'm like they're
missing the fundamentals ofleadership.
And from my perspective as abehavior scientist, I'm like the
DNA of leadership is thescience of human behavior
principles and we always talkabout all behavior occurs
because of reinforcement, right.
All results require behavior.
How do you get behaviorreinforcement?
But one of the things that youjust mentioned about getting
reinforcement is establishingyourself as a positive
reinforcement forcers, givingthem voice and choice, and that
(16:16):
is huge right.
And so I believe that peoplewant to feel valued and they
want to produce valued outcomesand that starts with finding out
what they value, because theyeverybody needs to understand
what's in it for them at the end.
You know they're in there forthe organization.
I know Simon Sinek says make itabout the why, right, and this
is why you know I think we'regoing to, because I really want
(16:38):
to hear about what your 10 we'sare here.
That's going to be exciting,but we have to.
We have to engage ourstakeholders and even if it's a
school, even the cafeteriaworker and the maintenance
person is adding, contributingsome value to that school.
That's helping that school movetowards a vision and mission
and produce some sort of goalsand they need to recognize that
their behavior, however menialother people might see it, is
(16:59):
contributing to that and theyneed to recognize that they are
valued and how they are lendingto them.
They're pouring into the bucketand I find that bad leadership
know bad leadership, right,people with position of
authority don't do that and theydon't do things like you just
mentioned by providing the why.
It's the simplest thing Ifyou've got to say no to
something, give voice and choiceand say and here's why it shows
respect to get, treats themwith dignity, and it's just
(17:20):
missing a lot.
Man, I don't think our highered courses are doing very good
job of training our leaders.
It's like you know they'redumping them in theory, but it's
like me giving my fighterstheory and dumping them in the
cage or the ring, expecting thatthey're going to perform.
That's not the way shit works,man.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Yeah, that's a great metaphor.
I'd love to run something byyou because you're much more
decorated from an academicperspective than I which doesn't
mean shit, by the way, but goahead.
I've seen lots of respect.
Yeah, same I.
I actually agree with that.
But you are obviously learnedon this topic.
Uh, or these topics I creatednot created, but in my mind it's
(17:57):
as simple as abc, and I'venever actually said this to an
academic like you and I'mcurious, your reaction, your
unfiltered reaction.
It's abc.
Every single human on theplanet, with some exception,
very few, some exception.
We want to add value.
A, we want to be valued.
So the things that wecontribute we want to be valued
and recognized for.
And I think ultimately and it'sthe hardest part, especially in
(18:19):
kind of like back office orless client-facing roles is they
want to connect the value thatthey've contributed to those
that ultimately benefit from it.
To me, it's that simple.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I'd love your reaction to that man.
Yeah, I, you know it's all kindof going to come back to what
people's positive reinforcersare right and values are kind of
like.
It's like a preferenceassessment, assessment like
what's important to you, youknow it's important to.
People want to be seen to yourpoint.
Absolutely.
They want to be seen.
Right, your point, absolutelythey want to be seen.
They want to feel valued.
I think part of feeling valueis them seeing that they're
(18:52):
adding value, but ultimatelythey want to produce again
valued outcomes.
I think, wherever you go, youwant to do that.
I don't think anybody goes to ajob and says I want to suck,
you know what I mean.
And nobody goes in there andsays I want to be treated like I
suck.
And I think the people in theseleadership positions that are
just driving folks to getresults, I think there's a
(19:12):
handful of narcissists out there.
I do believe that there are thenarcissists.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
Only a handful.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah, borderlines.
Well, the higher they get upman, the more they seem to weed
them out right, because they'reproducing those outcomes,
unfortunately, and I blame thoseabove right We'll talk about
this in a little bit because wegot to have some sort of metrics
, what we call social validity.
It's not just about the way weget results, but it's how we get
results, how people are feelingabout that, because those are
(19:37):
leading and lagging indicatorsthat, let us know, are people
are still going to be aroundnext year or the year after, and
it's also if they're notfeeling good about their
leadership and their support.
I don't think we should bebeating leaders up with that.
I think they need coaching.
They need somebody like Kyle orAJ to come in there to support
them with being better leaders,because people tend to be poor
observers of the behavior andthis is leaders as well Poor
(19:58):
observers of the impact of theirbehavior on the environment.
That includes the people in theenvironment Poor observers of
the impact of the environment ontheir behavior.
And so people need awareness,and without some sort of metric,
because in the end, it's notabout intent, it's about impact,
which is our tagline for theshow.
You got to be able to measureyour impact.
And so folks that are above youknow, let's say it's the board
(20:19):
right, and they're just lookingat results like you're fucking
crushing it.
I don't man, I just dropped a Fon here.
Aj, you know, that might justbe part of our thing.
I'll have to put the X rate, xon this one, or R, yeah, but at
what?
There you go.
But what?
At what?
At what cost is that happening?
Right, and so if all you careabout is producing profit,
that's okay.
I'm not going to judge youRight, but you will get more
profit if you take care of yourpeople.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Over a longer period of time too Right man.
It's not sustainable.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
That's right Over long periods when you talk about
those ABCs, so many of thosethings.
They involve exceptional softskills, they involve emotional
intelligence.
They require things that arenot necessarily technical skill
or that you can't pick up from acollege or university all the
(21:05):
time.
So we typically award andreward and promote people with
those technical skills withoutgiving a lot of focus on those
soft skills and thoseexceptional people-connecting
qualities that the ABCs that youjust mentioned really require,
don't you think?
Speaker 3 (21:25):
I couldn't agree more .
The challenge for?
Well, let me I'll give a reallybrief story.
So before I left corporate toto write the book, um, I worked
for a fortune uh at the time Ithink they were probably fortune
five pharmaceutical company.
I had uh, it was a massive teamat $2 billion budget and, guys,
I was cranking a lot.
This was the old me, admittedly.
(21:45):
I was cranking along, feelinglike I was making a difference,
doing big things inside thisorganization.
But I needed it to be validatedBecause you guys know, as you
climb in an organization, yourjokes get funnier.
People will tell you what theythink you want to hear instead
of the thing you need to heargave a little survey to my
directs.
(22:07):
I might've even gone a layerdeeper, but I'm pretty sure it
was just my directs and theresults were not good.
They weren't.
It was a smack in the face Ihad.
Again back to choices, I hadthis choice to be like well, you
know, yeah, yeah, I could, Icould have brushed it aside.
But I actually called the grouptogether and I said I got some
work to do.
Guys, clearly, by your it wasall anonymous, but I can.
(22:27):
You can kind of tell who'ssaying what, depending on how
big the audience or there's listof respondents is.
But I was like guys, I got somework to do and I just owned it.
And I don't know if I ever gotthere with that team, candidly,
cause I would do a follow-upsurveys.
I ended up leaving thatorganization just over a year
into it.
But if you don't ask, youreally will know.
And then you think you knowbecause you might ask people
(22:48):
that are going to tell you whatthey think you want to hear.
What do?
Speaker 4 (22:51):
you guys think.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
How do you quantify it?
What would you recommend?
Good, AJ.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
Well, I think even a very powerful lesson for our
listeners, even in that briefstory you just told, is you'll
never get to that connectingpiece if you don't show that
vulnerability.
Even you go in and say, heyguys, I got some work to do,
like I think that is so hugebecause people seldom feel
(23:18):
connected with people that theydon't see themselves in and who
you know who, as a leader, hasnot made a mistake or has failed
.
You know what I mean.
So that's part of it.
But the first part was actuallyseeking the feedback, like
actually doing someintrospection and some
self-reflection and saying wheream I not getting this right?
Where am I not getting thisright?
(23:39):
And if it takes you sending outa 360 degree, you know feedback,
or survey, or going to yourinner circle and say, you know,
tell me something I don't wantto hear today, I think that is
the first step to growth as aleader, because there is no
perfect leader.
The only one we had, itcrucified him.
So I mean I feel like you doingthat work as a leader and
(24:00):
looking in the mirror before youlook out the window.
That's the first step to me.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
What do you think, dude, it sounds AJ.
So much to unpack there.
It was a brilliant 30 secondsthere.
Self-reflection,self-reflection is huge.
I call it the mirror of truth.
If you can't stare into themirror of truth, which can be a
human?
If again, if you got someonetell you like it is, or it's
(24:26):
just finding the time, itdoesn't have to be every day.
Ideally it is to just sit insilence, sit in quiet.
Was I the person that my motherwould be proud of yesterday?
For me it's every morning.
I go over the things that I didyesterday, that I make good
good on my commitments.
Did I behave in a way that, ifit were broadcast all over the
company newsletter, the internetor even more broadly, would I
(24:46):
be embarrassed or would I beproud?
And that never happens withoutself-reflection.
I just think I didn't want togo too much further, man,
without commenting on your takethere, because I just think it's
brilliant.
And then you said something elsethat I just could not be more
adamant about, and that'srelatability.
If I don't relate to you, Idon't trust you.
It's just that simple.
(25:08):
It's my favorite example and,by the way, I say trust is
always found in relatabilityplus authenticity.
So when my team knows that I'mfamiliar with what it's like to
have an ailing parent or I'vebeen through financial struggles
.
If I can relate to you on anynumber of human levels, we are
much closer to you trusting me.
Now, if it's authentic on top ofthat and you know, man, oh AJ,
(25:29):
your child's sick, you're goingto be a little bit late today.
No sweat, man, I get it.
Been there, you see, thatrelatability and I'm authentic
in just saying you know, I couldjust say, well, get here by
nine.
We could bark an order back atyou.
I could say I get it.
And then, when you get there,hey, how's the kid, how's
everything going?
It's all good, everything good.
Anything else we can, can we doanything for you?
Can we do anything for him orher?
That relatability andauthenticity is the only way to,
(25:53):
in my mind, to secure trust.
Really well said.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
And I don't trust you is the prequel to I fear you.
And going back to thatself-reflection, going back to
that self-reflection for any ofour listeners plan it, schedule
it, put it on your outlook, putit on your calendar, make time
to do that self-reflection andthat deep thought.
And I want to let Paulie jumpin on that too.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah, I agree a hundred percent.
Man Kyle, what separates youclearly is that your values
drove you to ask.
You cared about the way peoplefelt, about things that are
going on, and that's a difficultthing for people who haven't
had that value.
There's a lot of people thatare just driven by the corporate
world, about money and aboutstatus right, and that's very
(26:36):
difficult.
But you cared enough to say andhad the courage to reach out to
people and ask them how do youfeel?
And you got the feedback in histhumb.
Um, and I I find that level ofcourage is, uh, is wanting out
there.
I think that the those kind ofsocial validity metrics need to
be baked into the organization.
I think we need to be gettingso it's a feedback loop from
(26:58):
people, right, we need to bechecking in with our
stakeholders regularly.
I know you're going to get intoprinciples, right, if we're
saying we want to be principalleaders, right, we need to have
a measure for that, to feel howpeople feel you know about us
and the way we're in ourbusiness.
But here's the caveat with thatis that if you give feedback
(27:19):
directly back to the leader,nobody believes it's anonymous,
right, so it's a catch-22.
I think that that data shouldgo.
Let's say, you know, you are mydirect, you know supervisor
Kyle and AJ is above you.
Right, what I report out shouldgo to AJ as your coach, what I
(27:39):
report out should go to AJ asyour coach, and AJ should take a
look at that data and measureyour own performance against
itself to say like, hey, here's,remember, this is just.
This kind of data is biased,though we all have to recognize
that.
Right, it's just a piece of thepuzzle, right, but here's some
relative strengths according tothe people around you.
Here's some areas let's focuson.
Remember, it's just, it couldbe bias, blah, blah, blah, but
(28:02):
let's, you know, because westart to promote some sort of
self-awareness.
I think over time, we start toget some trends and patterns of
it.
It really allows people toself-reflect more on their
behavior because they're gettingsome sort of feedback on what's
going on.
But I do think that they got totake great care to make it so
it's not just a check the boxLike, oh, we check in with our
people.
The other thing is we can'thave things at the end of the
year.
The end of the year surveys area fucking autopsy.
(28:23):
What are you?
going to do with that data.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Yeah, what's so special about a year?
By the way, I'm with you.
I couldn't agree more, couldn'tagree more.
I don't know, man, I don't know.
I think it's a check the boxman.
Hey, fellas, but we probablywould be doing a disservice if
we didn't get all the surveys inthe world.
All the self-reflection, allthose things are great.
If you don't relay theinformation that was captured,
(28:46):
you're worse off than if younever did the survey.
Absolutely Right.
Right, guys, there was aanother org that I was with, the
same org.
Actually, I'll be honest that Ijoined this company.
I had 40 locations.
I would fly around the country,meet with leaders and frontline
folks all around the country,and I had to focus.
It's not gonna shock you guys,it could shock others.
(29:08):
I'm in this focus group ofprobably 20, 25 people and I'm
brand new to this pharmaceuticalcompany.
I said, well, do you guys have amechanism that allows you to
give unfiltered feedback?
Right, because again to yourpoint around anonymity, and
someone says, yeah, yeah, we gotthe suggestion box.
I was like, oh, this is oldschool, but okay, it's better
(29:31):
than nothing.
It's better than nothing.
Let me feel this out.
Long story short, many peoplein this focus group were well
aware that even dropped offletters you know it's because it
was handwritten into thissuggestion box met with the
leaders after that focus groupand I said hey, man, great, you
guys have some kind of medium, amechanism in place.
None of them were aware of thesuggestion box.
They didn't know it was there.
So we got.
I said let's go, let's go,let's walk over there right now.
(29:52):
We had to get maintenance orfacilities to come unlock this
box.
Dude, there were dust filled,dust covered pieces of paper
inside this, inside this littlebox.
What a shame, what a shame.
You took the time to write allthis shit out and nobody even
read it.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Nobody's going to fill it out anymore after that.
That's right.
You have to act on the feedbackand even if you can't act on it
, at least you can give them thewhy.
You know, hey, here's why andthank goodness you heard from
that, because that stuff willhave a ripple effect across the
whole organization If peopledon't understand, like you know,
why is Kyle doing this, or whyis AJ or why is Pauly doing this
kind of stuff.
You know, I hear you guys,here's why.
(30:29):
Like, oh, we didn't know.
Thanks so much for giving usfeedback, you know.
So let's.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
The funny thing about real quick, pauly, the funny
thing about that is thefollowers.
They're watching that processplay out and can you imagine the
feeling of hopelessness thatthey felt that anything would
ever change, you know, withinthat organization or within that
department?
Because as leaders sometimes weforget the followers are always
(30:55):
watching.
They're always watching andthey're seeing that practice go
on day by day by day watching.
And they're seeing thatpractice go on day by day by day
and, like you said, paulie, Imean they just stopped filling
out the you know the survey card, even giving the feedback,
knowing nothing's going to getdone about it.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
I'm going to have to do a video on that.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Sorry, you know that optimism is reignited.
Right, they leave, they gosomewhere else no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I think we've had a lot of good conversation here,
but let's hear what you have tosay about that.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
I'd love to Thank you for the opportunity, but I need
to give one caveat and then aska favor.
The caveat is as I run throughthese and I say this on stage as
well it's like I can almosthear you guys saying well, no
shit, kyle.
Of course, because it is verysimple.
These principles are incrediblysimple, but simple is not easy.
It's not.
We all know how to lose weight.
(32:11):
We got to burn more caloriesthan we take in.
It's hard to do, though.
We know the recipe for so manythings in our lives, but we just
never take up that opportunitybecause it's hard.
It's difficult, and I tellpeople if you want to adopt the
10 wheeze and you want to leadin a different way, your job
gets harder.
It does for a period of time,and then the question is well,
how long?
My answer is I don't know,because I don't know your
(32:31):
commitment.
I don't know the toxicity orthe level of toxicity, if at all
, inside the environment.
Favor, and this is somethingthat's the most beautiful
unintended byproduct of the workI do now.
I never anticipated this.
As I walk through these, Iwould ask people to kind of take
their work hat off for a momentand think how and if these
principles might play a role inyour personal life as well.
(32:53):
They've changed who I am as ahuman, not as just some
corporate nerd.
They've changed how I interactwith my loved ones, my friends
and family, my wife and so on.
So with that in mind, I'm goingto fly through these.
The first and the mostfundamental of them all is we.
Number one it's we do the rightthing Always.
I never leave out that one word.
Second sentence Always theright thing can be a slippery
(33:15):
slope, we can argue and wrestleover what the right thing is,
but we will never enter ascenario, we will never enter a
scenario with anything otherthan we will do the right thing.
It may cost us more, may takelonger, but if I'm committed to
doing the right thing as aleader or a teammate, the number
one way to demonstrate mycommitment is number two we lead
(33:36):
by example.
The question is should I orshould I not lead by example?
You already are To your point amoment ago, aj.
They're watching.
The three of us are leading byexample right now and in a
corporate environment, you'realways being watched.
So lead by example.
Well, if I want to demonstratemy commitment to leading by
example.
That gets me to we number three.
We say what we're going to doand then we do it Pretty simple,
(33:58):
right, there's an understanding, almost a given, and we're
going to make good on ourcommitments to those that we
serve externally.
But when I have a fancy titleand I commit to something for a
member of my team, I don't getback to them.
What retribution or payback oroutcome is I don't have to.
So when we say we're going todo something especially for one
another and Paul, you saidsomething at the beginning that
I just love I don't give a shitabout the client experience at
(34:21):
first.
I care about how we treat eachother behind the scenes.
If we're high-functioningbehind the scenes, they'll feel
that, those we serve externallythey'll feel it.
If we're dysfunctional behindthe scenes, likewise, we'll
ultimately be exposed there aswell.
So we've got to make good onour commitments.
That's we number three.
Well, if I was walking through,I handled this process, I
(34:51):
processed this widget earliertoday and, man, if we can just
eliminate this step or insertthis step maybe it's technology,
whatever it is we will takejust identifying the opportunity
to be better is taking action.
It's not a license to go be acowboy in somebody else's domain
.
It's recognizing there's anopportunity for us to be better
and it's your obligation to callit out.
As we've already illuminated,no one is going to do that
(35:12):
without the following couple ofweeks.
We number five we own ourmistakes.
We're not judged by ourmistakes, I think, as humans.
I think it's a little less soinside the workplace, which is
unfortunate.
That's what I'm trying to getpeople back to is we don't judge
people by their mistakes.
We judge them by how well andhow quickly they remedy the
mistake if it happens.
Again, those two things.
So when we have thisenvironment where people are
(35:33):
focused on owning their mistakes, raising their hands say I blew
it without fear of retribution,we have to remember and live.
Weed.
Number six we pick each otherup Regardless.
If you're struggling at work,you're struggling at home.
Whatever the scenario is, andwe don't need to know all the
details.
We're not going to pry intopeople's personal lives but if
your results have always beenhere and all of a sudden they're
down here, you don't start thatconversation by saying what the
hell's up with your results.
(35:54):
You say, hey, man, everythinggoing all right.
I noticed that, I noticed, youknow, notice, you're not quite
performing at where you havehistorically and I just want to
make sure you're okay.
The second component of that oneis, I think, equally as
important.
We've got to lift people up tonew heights.
So it's not enough to picksomeone up when they're
struggling.
When someone is trying to takeon more, do more.
Maybe they want your job, maybethey want to leave your team
because there's an opportunitysomewhere else.
It's our obligation as humansto help them on that next step.
(36:17):
How many times have you guys?
I know I used to be in thesituation a member of the team
would come to me and say hey,man, I found this great role If
I was fortunate enough for themto share before it was too late.
I want to help them land thatnext job.
If I have nothing for them, Iwant them.
They need to know I care aboutthem and their growth, not what
they can do for me and for ourteam.
So we got to.
We must pick each other up aswe go seven to 10, it gets a
(36:39):
little more difficult for someto live.
We number seven is we measureourselves by outcomes, not
activity.
And the corporate world, Ithink, regardless of size, is so
obsessed and in love andinfatuated with meetings.
We have a meeting to talk abouta meeting and then we'll have
another meeting to talk aboutthat meeting and if there's any
scope creep, you guys know whatwe're going to do right, we'll
(37:00):
schedule another meeting.
We end up being so in love withbusyness that we lose sight of
the things that we're actuallyhere to do and that's deliver
outcomes.
Same with our same inside theteam.
It's like hey, aj, we've got astaff meeting next week.
Could you bring the uh, youbring the quarter four number, a
quarter one numbers, cause Iwant to discuss blah, blah, blah
.
Whatever you show up to the nextmeeting, you're like hey, aj,
(37:21):
where's that report?
You said oh well, I emailedJohn in finance, I'm still
waiting on that.
Not acceptable.
You walked away with the to-dofrom the last conversation To
show up again.
You have made a commitment andnot have it.
You have not delivered on thatoutcome.
That's not who we are.
If I can't trust you on my teamwhen we're aligned on the same
objectives, how can I trust youto do the most simple and
(37:41):
fundamental of things for us toachieve excellence?
So we've got to focus onoutcomes.
I say it this way, if you lookat your calendar and you see a
packed calendar, your doubletriple book, you have maybe 13,
14 meetings a day.
It's like look at thosemeetings and then juxtapose that
with your annual review process.
If you're lucky enough to havemore than one, that's great, but
connect those.
(38:02):
If you can't draw a straightline from those meetings, that
activity, to the outcomes forwhich you've been assigned, why
are you doing it?
It should be scrutinized.
We number eight we talked aboutwe challenge each other.
I think it's the most importantof them all.
It really unlocks growth anddevelopment among individuals,
but also team performance Lostwithout.
(38:22):
We number nine we touched onthat already.
It's we embrace challenge.
And then the last one is, Ithink, the icing on the cake,
and I was intentional not tohave it earlier in the list
because I think it's a recipefor disaster.
We number 10 is we obsess overdetails?
In so many environments, somany industries, the difference
between good and great, greatand excellent, excellent and
world-class is the details.
Are we obsessed enough to put aproduct or a service in front
(38:42):
of our client that we know wehave taken great care to develop
?
We've looked at it from allangles.
We're not perfect.
We're not striving forperfection, we're striving for
excellence, and that willseparate us from those who are
down the street trying to stealour consumer's dollar.
We must obsess over the details.
The details are not trivial.
The details are what make usgreat.
It will make us excellent.
So I just I wanted to thank youfor the opportunity to share
(39:05):
those.
The favor that I asked, I think,is important because if we find
ourselves, if we hold ourselvesaccountable to principles
inside and outside of theworkplace, we have this
authentic existence.
People know who we are, how theycan count, how and if they can
count on and why it is that wedo what we do.
More than a paycheck, more thanchecking boxes, it's about
(39:26):
having an impact on those youlead, those that you don't lead,
the person that you walk acrossthe hall with or walk towards
someone when you just say goodmorning versus keeping your head
buried down on your phone.
That's leading by example.
So, anyway, those are the 10wheeze and those 10 principles
came to me at probably midnight,1 am in Lawrence, kansas
transformed an organization ofmassive size, not just the
(39:48):
results, man.
We got to watch peopletransform from bosses to real
leaders, and I'll end thislittle monologue with this,
first 20 years of my career leftme with maybe two, three, maybe
a handful of confidants that Istill have regular contact with
the last 10 years, afterdiscovering these principles,
evangelizing them, writing thebook, I have kept in touch with
(40:09):
probably two dozen of formercolleagues.
To this day I have former directreports from two companies ago
that I still have scheduledone-on-ones with on a monthly or
bi-monthly basis.
Why?
Because they know I care aboutthem.
Should I stop caring because Idon't work there any longer?
That's not authentic.
So anyway, introducing thoseprinciples changed my
(40:33):
professional existence but also,I think, has made me a more
reliable friend, husband andpartner on business stuff.
So that's where I would end it.
Speaker 4 (40:39):
And good stuff.
So much to unpack there.
I'm going to make one commentand ask you to follow up on it,
because so much of what you saidreally just breeds a good
culture and I know a lot of yourwork is on establishing a
culture of excellence.
Peter Drucker said you know,culture eats.
Strategy for breakfast and thatsort of thing.
Two of your principles we takeaction.
(41:01):
I would just say I feel like weshould take action consistently,
but just because in myexperience and even doing some
consulting, I've seen a lot ofgood things get started, I've
seen a lot of initiatives, I'veseen a lot of good systems be
installed, but unless you'refollowing up on it every day,
(41:23):
you're maniacally focused on it,obsessed with it it typically
falls by the wayside and itdoesn't create just like the
suggestion box, right, it wasn'tfollowed through on.
Somebody didn't see that thingall the way through to the end
and follow it long enough, whereit created a positive culture.
(41:46):
So so that that was one of them, and the other one was to
another role, another position,another organization.
I just feel like that's lackinga lot in so many organizations
businesses and leadership models, and I don't know, I can't
quite put my finger on it.
Businesses and leadershipmodels, and I don't know, I
can't quite put my finger on it.
I don't know if it's, at worstit's insecurity and at best it's
(42:06):
a feeling of scarcity, of notwanting to lose the talent, not
wanting to develop the talenttoo much, not wanting that
person to outshine someone else,or something like that, so I
was just curious of yourthoughts on that.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
Um.
So I'll go um in reverse order,so starting with where you,
where you ended.
Um, it is ego.
I mean, that's what we touchedon earlier.
It's um, so many, many yearsago this is before I kind of had
this epiphany I had a fellow onmy team come to me and say Kyle
, I am this close to a roleoutside the company.
It's a title that I know he waskind of like my right hand guy.
(42:43):
Company.
It's a title that I know he waskind of like my right-hand guy.
It's a title that we don't haveand it's kind of an elevated
title versus what I have today.
And I know you can't match thiscomp.
So it's a good chance I'm goingto get this.
I've gone through this wholeinterview process.
I've got one final interview aweek from Monday and, to his
surprise, my reaction wasfantastic John, Good for you,
let me see your resume.
I was like what he said yeah,let me see your resume, let's do
(43:05):
a mock interview.
Who's the person you'respeaking with?
A week from Monday.
So I went on LinkedIn, foundthis guy and I played the role
we role played.
John was so ready for thisinterview, man, I was certain I
was leaving him or he wasleaving me and a week from
Monday comes and goes.
Tuesday morning I said, hey,dude, how'd it go?
Just waiting for the worstbecause he was a stud Still is
(43:29):
he didn't get the job.
We worked together for 14 moreyears at three different
companies Because you think hewas less loyal, you think he
trusted me less because I wantedto help him get.
Now, sometimes I'll have him.
So I say this a lot If you wantto leave this organization, I
will help you.
I Now sometimes I'll have them.
So I say this a lot like if youwant to leave this organization
, I will help you, I willabsolutely help you.
Some people read that into Iwant you to leave Because, again
(43:51):
, they're not going to tell youwhat they think you really want
to hear.
They're going to tell you what,so that I think they think I am
gently pushing them out and youhave to prove that and you have
to earn that equity with themover and over again.
So I love that story becauseit's 14.
Well, now it's 20 plus yearslater and we're still.
We're still in tight contactbecause I earned his respect, I
(44:12):
earned his trust and vice versa.
So I think that is that.
That.
That, I think, addresses your,your, your second question, the
take action part, your first.
The first part of your question, I think, is I'll I'll toss
back to a comment I made earlierit's harder.
It's harder.
It requires more work to be, tobe, an effective, impactful
leader, one that demonstratescare every single day, lives
(44:33):
these principles not every day,but every interaction.
It's harder, it takes more workbecause you start to prioritize
those around you over your ownobjectives, over your own kind
of personal growth and accolades, which, in a really ironic kind
of perverse twist that I neverunderstood until the last decade
or so, was when I put aside myown inclinations to ascend
inside of an organization andput all the energy into others.
(44:55):
It happens.
It happens anyway, because ifyou're leading a team with great
results, no one's going to say,hmm, who on that team can I
promote to replace Kyle or eventake them higher than Kyle?
It doesn't happen.
If you're a strong leader on ahigh-performing team, you will
be recognized and it doesn'tmatter who actually delivered
those results In most circles.
(45:15):
I'm not naive.
There are some weirdenvironments where people will
poach and kind of hopscotch theleader, but I think it's so rare
nowadays, especially nowadays.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
So, uh, man, I I first of all, I'd love the
simplicity of it.
I believe you know I forgetwhat the quote is, man, but if
you can't explain it simply, youdon't understand it well enough
.
And, um, I think everything yousaid really aligns with with my
personal values.
And, uh, I could certainly puta behavior analytic lens on and
be like that's all right, that'sreally good stuff.
I do want to end with this.
(45:47):
That is, everything you talkedabout is behavior.
The measure of a leader can befound in the behavior of the
followers, not in the results,because, as we all agreed on
earlier that there's lots ofdifferent ways to get results,
and you laid out beautifully abunch of really important
behaviors that are there, right,and I believe that if you value
something, you measure it, andtoo often we are not measuring
(46:09):
this stuff.
We're not checking the CR howmany people are doing the right
thing, you know?
Or even in some sort of socialvalidity survey, the climate
survey.
Do we believe that we do theright thing all the time?
Right, you said all the time isa good way.
Do we do it most of the time,you know?
Are we leading by example, youknow, or do we do it most of the
time?
Are we leading by example?
How often are we taking actionsbased on goals, et cetera, et
cetera.
So I believe that we have totake a look at if we're in a
(46:34):
leadership position and we havefolks below us that we're
supporting on the org chart.
We have to take a look at thebehavior of those folks.
That is the real measure of us,and if they're not performing,
they're not doing the rightthing no-transcript.
Speaker 3 (47:35):
The moon that was like the bar, and nearly three
years into it it has eclipsedthat by 50-fold, almost
Literally.
We're about 40,000 copies soldat this point and those
interactions that come fromreaders or people that might
follow on social media, theymake me better, which hopefully
in turn I can repay that favor.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (47:56):
Right on, man.
We've got to check back in withyou next year, man, and see how
things are going.
It was a great conversation,man.
Thanks for coming on, KyleMcDowell.
Welcome to the Heart and Science of Leadership, where
evidence meets empathy.
Co-hosted by Dr Paul Gavone, aWall Street Journal and USA
Today bestselling author, and AJRinaldi, a John Maxwell Team
certified leadership coach, thispodcast blends the human side
of leadership withevidence-based practices,
demonstrating that leadershipisn't about title or intent.
(00:24):
It's about impact.
And now here are your hosts,pauly and AJ.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
All right, welcome back to the Heart and Science of
Leadership podcast.
I'm your host, dr Pauly, andI'm here with AJ.
How you doing, brother?
Yeah, how are you Pauly?
Oh, I'm good man, I'm good,okay.
Well, so, per our last podcast,I talked about changing the
format to see what it's going tobe like to interview some very,
very successful leaders outhere.
And we actually have a verysuccessful leader today, and
(00:54):
that is Kyle McDowell.
And Kyle is a former corporateleader, former Fortune 10
executive, very cool man,keynote speaker, media
personality and USA Todaybestselling author of the book
Begin With the we.
So, kyle, I want to welcome youto our podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Hey man Paul, it's great to be here, good to spend
some time with both you and AJ.
I'm really grateful for theopportunity.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Yeah, thanks, man, and congratulations on getting
your book to be so successful.
I checked it out on Amazon, man.
It's still doing very well.
You've had it out for a fewyears, so that's pretty cool,
man.
I love seeing people out therespreading the good word on good
leadership Because, as we allknow, good leadership can make a
huge difference and badleadership man can put people in
the dirt.
I've seen it do a lot of badthings to people, but I don't
(01:39):
think it's bad people.
It's often bad behavior, right,well said bad people.
It's often bad behavior, right,well said.
Yeah, Thanks, man.
So, um, so, kyle, I'd like toyou know, we, we spoke a little
bit off, uh, you know off, uh,this recording here to talk
about what you want to focus onand I, it seems like we we share
some very common thoughts, andthat is, uh, we believe that
(01:59):
leadership should really revolvearound principles, right, um,
but before we get into that,before we get into that, what it
should do, tell me some of thestruggles that you see out there
with leadership, right, and whywe need to really focus on
principles more.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Yeah Well, so just for some context for your
audience, I spent nearly 30years in corporate America and
it's like so many essentially, Iwould guess, most of your
audience, if not all.
I started from really reallyhumble beginnings in a tiny
cubicle for a regional bank herein Florida and kind of worked
my way up the corporate ladder,ultimately to leading tens of
thousands of employees my lasttwo roles I had about 30,000
(02:35):
employees and I will tell you,the first 20 years of that
journey were wildly differentthan the last 10.
I managed to deliver reallygood results, if not great
results, throughout the bulk ofmy career, but the first 20
years left me with more apathythan anything else.
And then I realized at I hadthis epiphany moment that I
(02:56):
refer to as now, which kind ofcompelled me to write the book
and set out on this journey thatI'm on now, which is to rid the
corporate world of its toxicways and shitty leaders, because
I was that guy for the first 20years, so I can relate to why
so many of us find ourselves inthat trap where we end up
behaving in ways that weessentially loathed prior to
(03:18):
being in this new position ofauthority or becoming a boss air
quotes.
So for me, the biggesttransition in this epiphany was
grounded in these 10 principlesthat I have.
I didn't create them, Idiscovered them.
They were already out there.
I just happened to put them ina little package.
10 sentences each begin withthe word we.
I'm not super creative, so wehave the 10 we's and these
(03:41):
principles are essentially acultural currency that allows
every single member of the team,from the newest intern to the
most senior C-level fella or galin the organization.
It gives them the same ability,empowerment, the right to bring
their best selves to work everysingle day.
We're not trying to sound likethe smartest people in the world
(04:01):
.
We're not trying to have themost stark shirt and shiny shoes
.
We want to make a difference.
And the only way to make adifference, at least in a team
environment, in my mind, is toalign around principles and hold
yourselves accountable, eachother accountable, not just top
down.
We all have to be in the sameposition to hold each other
accountable, challenge eachother, pick each other up when
it doesn't go well, and that'swhat these principles aim to do.
(04:22):
Is they create kind of aguardrail or a fence, if you
will, that kind of modulates howwe behave.
But I've found mostorganizations do a great job
teaching people how to do theirjob like the X's and O's, the
SOPs, the procedures but veryfew really, really spend a lot
of effort, time and money on howwe behave inside of the team,
not just get our work done.
I think it's equally important.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Oh well, it's the most important thing.
I'm a behavior scientist, soit's all about behavior.
All results require behaviorand there's different ways to
get behavior going.
A couple of things that yousaid, and I'm going to AJ.
Let me get this first questionout, man, because I'm going to
bounce it back to you.
Next man, just the title we Ilove that, right, right, because
we got to make it about us.
Uh, I love this quote byrichard branson, and that is it
(05:06):
says clients do not come first,employees come first.
If you take care of youremployees, they will take care
of your clients.
I don't, I don't understandthat.
It's the simplest premise, butit is so true.
But I find that to your point.
I've seen so much bad leadershipout there, not bad people.
I call ask clownery.
By the way, in my book it'sactually it's an acronym for
(05:29):
something.
Yeah, my book was originallygoing to be called shitty
leadership, but I called itpositional authority, ain't
leadership.
Anyways, I see a lot of toxicityout there, bad behavior and
people engage in this behaviorbecause they produce results.
They think it's working forthem, and it is, if you're just
measuring it on results.
But as we all know here,there's better ways to get much
better results right when we canincrease morale, increase
(05:50):
performance, increase retention,decrease medical issues.
Just live ethically right andI'm sure you're going to talk
about that with the weed.
But can you talk a little bitabout what does it mean to be
toxic?
What do these environments looklike?
Because I want to see thejuxtaposition between.
Maybe some people can relate towhat they're feeling in their
own organization, because somepeople might think like am I
(06:12):
crazy?
Is it supposed to be this way?
I used to think that and I'mlike no, this is not the way
shit should be.
So what do those environmentslook like?
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Well, it doesn't have to be.
I couldn't agree more.
But the way out of that kind ofshitty environment that so many
of us have found ourselves inat least at one point in our
career, it starts with a choice.
We've got to make a choice tolead differently, to participate
in a team environmentdifferently, because this whole
command and control style theone that I embraced for 20 years
it doesn't work any longer, atleast over a sustained period of
(06:42):
time.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
And what's that look like though?
The command and control.
That's what I want to hear.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah.
So I'll cop out and give a moreacademic definition, which I'm
sure you would appreciate, butthen also I think we can align
on maybe more practical terms.
So Glassdoor and MIT partneredto form this thing called the
Culture 500.
And their goal was to uncover,using 30 million profiles from
Glassdoor, they wanted touncover why it is that employee,
(07:08):
why do folks leave their role,why do they quit their company
by the way, as you know, theyrarely quit a company, usually
quit your boss.
And they came up, they landed onthree or four characteristics
that are the main drivers forturnover.
The number one is toxic culture, and toxic culture is so kind
of like hard to define for some.
(07:30):
So they go a layer deeper andI'll probably get the three or
four wrong, but just know thatat a high level it's
unmanageable workload, unfairexpectations, unclear
communication.
And the last one is lack ofmanager support.
Those four items, and when youput them on paper which I've
done because I'm that nerd whenyou put them on paper, there's
an obvious theme among thosefour items it's leadership, it's
(07:52):
people.
And they go on and they useactually this one's from Gallup.
They say why my company cares alot about my overall wellbeing
and the numbers go up and downand they're probably at
historical lows at this point,which I think is such a cop-out.
I've never met a person namedcompany.
I've never met anybody namedleadership or management, to
(08:12):
your point, the intro that yougave man.
It's like these are all people,not necessarily even bad people
, but they're part of the cyclewhich I know I was, and I'm sure
many in your audience, maybeyou guys as well part of the
cycle.
Well, where I want to getpromoted, I want to do more, I
want to make more, I want to getthese fancy titles, so I start
to emulate the shitty behaviorthat I really don't care for,
(08:33):
but I recognize when I emulateit I have a better chance of
being asked to do more, becausethe people making those
decisions to put me in theposition to take on more get a
fancier title, more comp.
Those decision makers are theones whose behavior I dislike,
but I know to endear myself tothem.
I should probably behavesimilarly.
And so this cycle creates andit's over and over again until
(08:54):
someone stands up and saysenough, we don't have to have
the Sunday scaries to the pointwhere we got to take medication.
We don't need to.
We should not hate our jobs.
Now, guys, I'm not naive.
People aren't going to springout of bed every single day and
run to work.
It's called work, it's notcalled vacation.
I get that, but I do believeit's an obligation of those in
any type of position ofleadership has nothing to do
with title, by the way.
(09:14):
We endeavor and push each otherto create that environment
where we all come to the sameconclusion that, well, if we're
going to be here 100,000 hoursof our life, we better make the
most of it, and that involvesbeing more human than robotic,
which is what so manyorganizations encourage us to do
is become something other thanourselves.
It's a real shame, well.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
Cal, you made a really critical point there.
When you talk about theorganization, like there's
humans behind the organization,sometimes we just throw those
blanket statements out Well,like the organization decided,
or we're going in this direction, and it's never the bricks and
mortar right.
It always comes down to humanbeings.
So, out of those 10 we's thatyou've kind of crafted, have you
(09:58):
found that organizationsstruggle with one in particular
more than the other?
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Yeah, and I'm going to play back what you said,
because even inherently in whatyou said I think is kind of a
rub.
It's like you said, whatorganizations have a hard time?
No organization has ever had ahard time with any of my
principles.
The leaders inside of thoseorganizations are the ones that
might kind of push back, andthere is one, it's number eight.
(10:23):
We number eights, we challengeeach other and it was the
toughest for me to grasp soreally quickly background.
So I established theseprinciples the night before I
was going to meet with the top40 or 50 leaders inside of a new
organization that I had kind ofinherited.
I joined this company 60, 90days ago.
It's about 14,000 employees, $7billion program for the federal
(10:44):
government and that was mychance to get in front of this
group of leaders for the firsttime the night before.
It was a real gut check momentfor me.
It's like I made a personalcommitment that I was no longer
going to leave with that commandand control style.
I needed to find a way toresonate differently other than
my business card.
So the night before I was in myhotel room and I started.
I knew I needed to put someslides together, because I was
on stage the next morning andthese principles started to come
(11:07):
to me.
And they came to me after Iasked myself two questions what
are the experiences that you'vereally really taken away?
Value?
And you felt as if you werevalued.
You felt like you were acontributing member to this team
.
Pause, and then the other anglewas okay, let's think about
those scenarios that left youfeeling the exact opposite less
than whole, a cog in a machine,not actually valued for the work
that you do.
(11:27):
You don't feel like you'recontributing something bigger
than yourself.
And from that I ended up withthese 10 sentences and the one
that is by far the toughest forfolks to grasp in.
Well, not grasp but actuallylive every single day, including
me.
I struggled with it.
I still do.
From time to time we challengeeach other because historically,
as you guys know, thechallenges almost always come
(11:48):
from on high and they flow inone direction only If we're
lucky we might be able tochallenge occasionally up this
direction, but we're going totread lightly because we know of
the retribution that could comeRarely.
Is there encouragement of peerschallenging peers?
If we're going to be a greatteam, we need to hold each other
accountable.
It's just that simple.
We can't have one persondragging behind and expect one
(12:10):
person the boss to be the one tosay hey, man, you're not
pulling your own weight.
So we challenge each other isincredibly important, but it's
chaos without we number nine,which is we embrace challenge.
Can't have one without theother.
So those two in combination, tome, have been the most pivotal
and the most profound in termsof transformation, not only in
myself, but with those I workwith as well.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
But with so much content out there now and so
much dialogue about us needingto have that vertical feedback,
feedback needs to be freeflowing.
Why do you think it is thatleaders continue to struggle,
either being proactive andseeking that feedback from the
people below them in the orgchart, or just developing that
trust from the people below themin the org chart, or just
developing that trust from thepeople in their inner circle to
(12:52):
be able to hear thatconstructive feedback.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
It's a great question and, my man, I think you really
highlight what is the Achillesheel to bosses becoming great
leaders, and that's ego.
It's ego.
It was for me and I see it inthose that I keep a small.
I keep five or six executivesthat I do individual one-on-one
coaching with and without outingany one of them, is obvious to
(13:15):
me.
The ego manifests itself in away that is a threat to my
authority.
I have to have all the answersbecause I make more than you and
I'm put in this position ofauthority.
It's expected that I knoweverything, but not really.
No one expects perfection outof their boss.
They expect fairness, theyexpect authenticity, they expect
(13:35):
us being relatable.
So when the lack of ego resultsin the exact opposite of those
things, my voice must be theloudest.
I must have the right answers,because I said so is almost
always the fallback in case Iget challenged.
But I tell you, man, and it wasthe most, it was a really
transitional moment for me whenI realized and this was getting
(13:57):
20 years into my career I didn'thave to be the smartest guy in
the room, I didn't have to haveall the answers, I didn't need
to be right, I needed us to findright.
I didn't need to be right, weneeded to do right.
So, if, if, especially in thosethat have not been in their
career for a long period of time, because they feel as if, when
they get promoted or hired intothis position of authority,
there's these, there are theseexpectations that you know
(14:18):
everything.
You just can't say I don't know.
But but when we realize thevalue that comes and the
relatability that comes when wetell our teams man, I just don't
know, what do you think?
I'd love your insight on this.
You've been here longer than Ihave.
You must have more informationor intel than I have.
I'd love to hear that.
And then being candid and openand transparent about that
(14:39):
feedback.
So if you say something, AJ, Isay hey, AJ, man, what do you
think about scenario X?
And you give me a solution andin the back of my mind I know is
harebrained, let's just usethat example.
I have a choice at that point.
I could either shut you downand say no, that's not, we're
moving on, or I can say you know, let's think more about that,
and once we have a little moredialogue, I say you know what?
(15:00):
That's probably not the routewe're going to take, and here's
the most important part of myanswer.
But here's why.
Here's why Because everyonegets quiet and refuses to raise
their hand after you've raisedit two, three, four times and
it's not acknowledged.
So once we lose the ego and areopen to other people's point of
view, their perspectives, theirpushback, their challenges, I
think results are unlocked somuch more easily.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah, it just seems so simple.
But of course I've also been onthe other side.
We've all engaged in Ask Clownor we've all done things because
again, it produces results forus and if you get dumped into
that culture you're like this isthe way things.
I personally never cared abouthierarchy and moving up man, I
always thought people up therewere Ask Clowns to begin with.
I never really liked, I justthink I had just a bunch of bad
(15:53):
leaders.
Man, I'm like I don't want tobe like these people, but I
realized that after unpackingstandards for creating
leadership courses andcertification, I'm like they're
missing the fundamentals ofleadership.
And from my perspective as abehavior scientist, I'm like the
DNA of leadership is thescience of human behavior
principles and we always talkabout all behavior occurs
because of reinforcement, right.
All results require behavior.
How do you get behaviorreinforcement?
But one of the things that youjust mentioned about getting
reinforcement is establishingyourself as a positive
reinforcement forcers, givingthem voice and choice, and that
(16:16):
is huge right.
And so I believe that peoplewant to feel valued and they
want to produce valued outcomesand that starts with finding out
what they value, because theyeverybody needs to understand
what's in it for them at the end.
You know they're in there forthe organization.
I know Simon Sinek says make itabout the why, right, and this
is why you know I think we'regoing to, because I really want
(16:38):
to hear about what your 10 we'sare here.
That's going to be exciting,but we have to.
We have to engage ourstakeholders and even if it's a
school, even the cafeteriaworker and the maintenance
person is adding, contributingsome value to that school.
That's helping that school movetowards a vision and mission
and produce some sort of goalsand they need to recognize that
their behavior, however menialother people might see it, is
(16:59):
contributing to that and theyneed to recognize that they are
valued and how they are lendingto them.
They're pouring into the bucketand I find that bad leadership
know bad leadership, right,people with position of
authority don't do that and theydon't do things like you just
mentioned by providing the why.
It's the simplest thing Ifyou've got to say no to
something, give voice and choiceand say and here's why it shows
respect to get, treats themwith dignity, and it's just
(17:20):
missing a lot.
Man, I don't think our highered courses are doing very good
job of training our leaders.
It's like you know they'redumping them in theory, but it's
like me giving my fighterstheory and dumping them in the
cage or the ring, expecting thatthey're going to perform.
That's not the way shit works,man.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Yeah, that's a great metaphor.
I'd love to run something byyou because you're much more
decorated from an academicperspective than I which doesn't
mean shit, by the way, but goahead.
I've seen lots of respect.
Yeah, same I.
I actually agree with that.
But you are obviously learnedon this topic.
Uh, or these topics I creatednot created, but in my mind it's
(17:57):
as simple as abc, and I'venever actually said this to an
academic like you and I'mcurious, your reaction, your
unfiltered reaction.
It's abc.
Every single human on theplanet, with some exception,
very few, some exception.
We want to add value.
A, we want to be valued.
So the things that wecontribute we want to be valued
and recognized for.
And I think ultimately and it'sthe hardest part, especially in
(18:19):
kind of like back office orless client-facing roles is they
want to connect the value thatthey've contributed to those
that ultimately benefit from it.
To me, it's that simple.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I'd love your reaction to that man.
Yeah, I, you know it's all kindof going to come back to what
people's positive reinforcersare right and values are kind of
like.
It's like a preferenceassessment, assessment like
what's important to you, youknow it's important to.
People want to be seen to yourpoint.
Absolutely.
They want to be seen.
Right, your point, absolutelythey want to be seen.
They want to feel valued.
I think part of feeling valueis them seeing that they're
(18:52):
adding value, but ultimatelythey want to produce again
valued outcomes.
I think, wherever you go, youwant to do that.
I don't think anybody goes to ajob and says I want to suck,
you know what I mean.
And nobody goes in there andsays I want to be treated like I
suck.
And I think the people in theseleadership positions that are
just driving folks to getresults, I think there's a
(19:12):
handful of narcissists out there.
I do believe that there are thenarcissists.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
Only a handful.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah, borderlines.
Well, the higher they get upman, the more they seem to weed
them out right, because they'reproducing those outcomes,
unfortunately, and I blame thoseabove right We'll talk about
this in a little bit because wegot to have some sort of metrics
, what we call social validity.
It's not just about the way weget results, but it's how we get
results, how people are feelingabout that, because those are
(19:37):
leading and lagging indicatorsthat, let us know, are people
are still going to be aroundnext year or the year after, and
it's also if they're notfeeling good about their
leadership and their support.
I don't think we should bebeating leaders up with that.
I think they need coaching.
They need somebody like Kyle orAJ to come in there to support
them with being better leaders,because people tend to be poor
observers of the behavior andthis is leaders as well Poor
(19:58):
observers of the impact of theirbehavior on the environment.
That includes the people in theenvironment Poor observers of
the impact of the environment ontheir behavior.
And so people need awareness,and without some sort of metric,
because in the end, it's notabout intent, it's about impact,
which is our tagline for theshow.
You got to be able to measureyour impact.
And so folks that are above youknow, let's say it's the board
(20:19):
right, and they're just lookingat results like you're fucking
crushing it.
I don't man, I just dropped a Fon here.
Aj, you know, that might justbe part of our thing.
I'll have to put the X rate, xon this one, or R, yeah, but at
what?
There you go.
But what?
At what?
At what cost is that happening?
Right, and so if all you careabout is producing profit,
that's okay.
I'm not going to judge youRight, but you will get more
profit if you take care of yourpeople.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Over a longer period of time too Right man.
It's not sustainable.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
That's right Over long periods when you talk about
those ABCs, so many of thosethings.
They involve exceptional softskills, they involve emotional
intelligence.
They require things that arenot necessarily technical skill
or that you can't pick up from acollege or university all the
(21:05):
time.
So we typically award andreward and promote people with
those technical skills withoutgiving a lot of focus on those
soft skills and thoseexceptional people-connecting
qualities that the ABCs that youjust mentioned really require,
don't you think?
Speaker 3 (21:25):
I couldn't agree more .
The challenge for?
Well, let me I'll give a reallybrief story.
So before I left corporate toto write the book, um, I worked
for a fortune uh at the time Ithink they were probably fortune
five pharmaceutical company.
I had uh, it was a massive teamat $2 billion budget and, guys,
I was cranking a lot.
This was the old me, admittedly.
(21:45):
I was cranking along, feelinglike I was making a difference,
doing big things inside thisorganization.
But I needed it to be validatedBecause you guys know, as you
climb in an organization, yourjokes get funnier.
People will tell you what theythink you want to hear instead
of the thing you need to heargave a little survey to my
directs.
(22:07):
I might've even gone a layerdeeper, but I'm pretty sure it
was just my directs and theresults were not good.
They weren't.
It was a smack in the face Ihad.
Again back to choices, I hadthis choice to be like well, you
know, yeah, yeah, I could, Icould have brushed it aside.
But I actually called the grouptogether and I said I got some
work to do.
Guys, clearly, by your it wasall anonymous, but I can.
(22:27):
You can kind of tell who'ssaying what, depending on how
big the audience or there's listof respondents is.
But I was like guys, I got somework to do and I just owned it.
And I don't know if I ever gotthere with that team, candidly,
cause I would do a follow-upsurveys.
I ended up leaving thatorganization just over a year
into it.
But if you don't ask, youreally will know.
And then you think you knowbecause you might ask people
(22:48):
that are going to tell you whatthey think you want to hear.
What do?
Speaker 4 (22:51):
you guys think.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
How do you quantify it?
What would you recommend?
Good, AJ.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
Well, I think even a very powerful lesson for our
listeners, even in that briefstory you just told, is you'll
never get to that connectingpiece if you don't show that
vulnerability.
Even you go in and say, heyguys, I got some work to do,
like I think that is so hugebecause people seldom feel
(23:18):
connected with people that theydon't see themselves in and who
you know who, as a leader, hasnot made a mistake or has failed
.
You know what I mean.
So that's part of it.
But the first part was actuallyseeking the feedback, like
actually doing someintrospection and some
self-reflection and saying wheream I not getting this right?
Where am I not getting thisright?
(23:39):
And if it takes you sending outa 360 degree, you know feedback,
or survey, or going to yourinner circle and say, you know,
tell me something I don't wantto hear today, I think that is
the first step to growth as aleader, because there is no
perfect leader.
The only one we had, itcrucified him.
So I mean I feel like you doingthat work as a leader and
(24:00):
looking in the mirror before youlook out the window.
That's the first step to me.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
What do you think, dude, it sounds AJ.
So much to unpack there.
It was a brilliant 30 secondsthere.
Self-reflection,self-reflection is huge.
I call it the mirror of truth.
If you can't stare into themirror of truth, which can be a
human?
If again, if you got someonetell you like it is, or it's
(24:26):
just finding the time, itdoesn't have to be every day.
Ideally it is to just sit insilence, sit in quiet.
Was I the person that my motherwould be proud of yesterday?
For me it's every morning.
I go over the things that I didyesterday, that I make good
good on my commitments.
Did I behave in a way that, ifit were broadcast all over the
company newsletter, the internetor even more broadly, would I
(24:46):
be embarrassed or would I beproud?
And that never happens withoutself-reflection.
I just think I didn't want togo too much further, man,
without commenting on your takethere, because I just think it's
brilliant.
And then you said something elsethat I just could not be more
adamant about, and that'srelatability.
If I don't relate to you, Idon't trust you.
It's just that simple.
(25:08):
It's my favorite example and,by the way, I say trust is
always found in relatabilityplus authenticity.
So when my team knows that I'mfamiliar with what it's like to
have an ailing parent or I'vebeen through financial struggles
.
If I can relate to you on anynumber of human levels, we are
much closer to you trusting me.
Now, if it's authentic on top ofthat and you know, man, oh AJ,
(25:29):
your child's sick, you're goingto be a little bit late today.
No sweat, man, I get it.
Been there, you see, thatrelatability and I'm authentic
in just saying you know, I couldjust say, well, get here by
nine.
We could bark an order back atyou.
I could say I get it.
And then, when you get there,hey, how's the kid, how's
everything going?
It's all good, everything good.
Anything else we can, can we doanything for you?
Can we do anything for him orher?
That relatability andauthenticity is the only way to,
(25:53):
in my mind, to secure trust.
Really well said.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
And I don't trust you is the prequel to I fear you.
And going back to thatself-reflection, going back to
that self-reflection for any ofour listeners plan it, schedule
it, put it on your outlook, putit on your calendar, make time
to do that self-reflection andthat deep thought.
And I want to let Paulie jumpin on that too.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah, I agree a hundred percent.
Man Kyle, what separates youclearly is that your values
drove you to ask.
You cared about the way peoplefelt, about things that are
going on, and that's a difficultthing for people who haven't
had that value.
There's a lot of people thatare just driven by the corporate
world, about money and aboutstatus right, and that's very
(26:36):
difficult.
But you cared enough to say andhad the courage to reach out to
people and ask them how do youfeel?
And you got the feedback in histhumb.
Um, and I I find that level ofcourage is, uh, is wanting out
there.
I think that the those kind ofsocial validity metrics need to
be baked into the organization.
I think we need to be gettingso it's a feedback loop from
(26:58):
people, right, we need to bechecking in with our
stakeholders regularly.
I know you're going to get intoprinciples, right, if we're
saying we want to be principalleaders, right, we need to have
a measure for that, to feel howpeople feel you know about us
and the way we're in ourbusiness.
But here's the caveat with thatis that if you give feedback
(27:19):
directly back to the leader,nobody believes it's anonymous,
right, so it's a catch-22.
I think that that data shouldgo.
Let's say, you know, you are mydirect, you know supervisor
Kyle and AJ is above you.
Right, what I report out shouldgo to AJ as your coach, what I
(27:39):
report out should go to AJ asyour coach, and AJ should take a
look at that data and measureyour own performance against
itself to say like, hey, here's,remember, this is just.
This kind of data is biased,though we all have to recognize
that.
Right, it's just a piece of thepuzzle, right, but here's some
relative strengths according tothe people around you.
Here's some areas let's focuson.
Remember, it's just, it couldbe bias, blah, blah, blah, but
(28:02):
let's, you know, because westart to promote some sort of
self-awareness.
I think over time, we start toget some trends and patterns of
it.
It really allows people toself-reflect more on their
behavior because they're gettingsome sort of feedback on what's
going on.
But I do think that they got totake great care to make it so
it's not just a check the boxLike, oh, we check in with our
people.
The other thing is we can'thave things at the end of the
year.
The end of the year surveys area fucking autopsy.
(28:23):
What are you?
going to do with that data.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Yeah, what's so special about a year?
By the way, I'm with you.
I couldn't agree more, couldn'tagree more.
I don't know, man, I don't know.
I think it's a check the boxman.
Hey, fellas, but we probablywould be doing a disservice if
we didn't get all the surveys inthe world.
All the self-reflection, allthose things are great.
If you don't relay theinformation that was captured,
(28:46):
you're worse off than if younever did the survey.
Absolutely Right.
Right, guys, there was aanother org that I was with, the
same org.
Actually, I'll be honest that Ijoined this company.
I had 40 locations.
I would fly around the country,meet with leaders and frontline
folks all around the country,and I had to focus.
It's not gonna shock you guys,it could shock others.
(29:08):
I'm in this focus group ofprobably 20, 25 people and I'm
brand new to this pharmaceuticalcompany.
I said, well, do you guys have amechanism that allows you to
give unfiltered feedback?
Right, because again to yourpoint around anonymity, and
someone says, yeah, yeah, we gotthe suggestion box.
I was like, oh, this is oldschool, but okay, it's better
(29:31):
than nothing.
It's better than nothing.
Let me feel this out.
Long story short, many peoplein this focus group were well
aware that even dropped offletters you know it's because it
was handwritten into thissuggestion box met with the
leaders after that focus groupand I said hey, man, great, you
guys have some kind of medium, amechanism in place.
None of them were aware of thesuggestion box.
They didn't know it was there.
So we got.
I said let's go, let's go,let's walk over there right now.
(29:52):
We had to get maintenance orfacilities to come unlock this
box.
Dude, there were dust filled,dust covered pieces of paper
inside this, inside this littlebox.
What a shame, what a shame.
You took the time to write allthis shit out and nobody even
read it.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Nobody's going to fill it out anymore after that.
That's right.
You have to act on the feedbackand even if you can't act on it
, at least you can give them thewhy.
You know, hey, here's why andthank goodness you heard from
that, because that stuff willhave a ripple effect across the
whole organization If peopledon't understand, like you know,
why is Kyle doing this, or whyis AJ or why is Pauly doing this
kind of stuff.
You know, I hear you guys,here's why.
(30:29):
Like, oh, we didn't know.
Thanks so much for giving usfeedback, you know.
So let's.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
The funny thing about real quick, pauly, the funny
thing about that is thefollowers.
They're watching that processplay out and can you imagine the
feeling of hopelessness thatthey felt that anything would
ever change, you know, withinthat organization or within that
department?
Because as leaders sometimes weforget the followers are always
(30:55):
watching.
They're always watching andthey're seeing that practice go
on day by day by day watching.
And they're seeing thatpractice go on day by day by day
and, like you said, paulie, Imean they just stopped filling
out the you know the survey card, even giving the feedback,
knowing nothing's going to getdone about it.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
I'm going to have to do a video on that.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Sorry, you know that optimism is reignited.
Right, they leave, they gosomewhere else no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I think we've had a lot of good conversation here,
but let's hear what you have tosay about that.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
I'd love to Thank you for the opportunity, but I need
to give one caveat and then aska favor.
The caveat is as I run throughthese and I say this on stage as
well it's like I can almosthear you guys saying well, no
shit, kyle.
Of course, because it is verysimple.
These principles are incrediblysimple, but simple is not easy.
It's not.
We all know how to lose weight.
(32:11):
We got to burn more caloriesthan we take in.
It's hard to do, though.
We know the recipe for so manythings in our lives, but we just
never take up that opportunitybecause it's hard.
It's difficult, and I tellpeople if you want to adopt the
10 wheeze and you want to leadin a different way, your job
gets harder.
It does for a period of time,and then the question is well,
how long?
My answer is I don't know,because I don't know your
(32:31):
commitment.
I don't know the toxicity orthe level of toxicity, if at all
, inside the environment.
Favor, and this is somethingthat's the most beautiful
unintended byproduct of the workI do now.
I never anticipated this.
As I walk through these, Iwould ask people to kind of take
their work hat off for a momentand think how and if these
principles might play a role inyour personal life as well.
(32:53):
They've changed who I am as ahuman, not as just some
corporate nerd.
They've changed how I interactwith my loved ones, my friends
and family, my wife and so on.
So with that in mind, I'm goingto fly through these.
The first and the mostfundamental of them all is we.
Number one it's we do the rightthing Always.
I never leave out that one word.
Second sentence Always theright thing can be a slippery
(33:15):
slope, we can argue and wrestleover what the right thing is,
but we will never enter ascenario, we will never enter a
scenario with anything otherthan we will do the right thing.
It may cost us more, may takelonger, but if I'm committed to
doing the right thing as aleader or a teammate, the number
one way to demonstrate mycommitment is number two we lead
(33:36):
by example.
The question is should I orshould I not lead by example?
You already are To your point amoment ago, aj.
They're watching.
The three of us are leading byexample right now and in a
corporate environment, you'realways being watched.
So lead by example.
Well, if I want to demonstratemy commitment to leading by
example.
That gets me to we number three.
We say what we're going to doand then we do it Pretty simple,
(33:58):
right, there's an understanding, almost a given, and we're
going to make good on ourcommitments to those that we
serve externally.
But when I have a fancy titleand I commit to something for a
member of my team, I don't getback to them.
What retribution or payback oroutcome is I don't have to.
So when we say we're going todo something especially for one
another and Paul, you saidsomething at the beginning that
I just love I don't give a shitabout the client experience at
(34:21):
first.
I care about how we treat eachother behind the scenes.
If we're high-functioningbehind the scenes, they'll feel
that, those we serve externallythey'll feel it.
If we're dysfunctional behindthe scenes, likewise, we'll
ultimately be exposed there aswell.
So we've got to make good onour commitments.
That's we number three.
Well, if I was walking through,I handled this process, I
(34:51):
processed this widget earliertoday and, man, if we can just
eliminate this step or insertthis step maybe it's technology,
whatever it is we will takejust identifying the opportunity
to be better is taking action.
It's not a license to go be acowboy in somebody else's domain
.
It's recognizing there's anopportunity for us to be better
and it's your obligation to callit out.
As we've already illuminated,no one is going to do that
(35:12):
without the following couple ofweeks.
We number five we own ourmistakes.
We're not judged by ourmistakes, I think, as humans.
I think it's a little less soinside the workplace, which is
unfortunate.
That's what I'm trying to getpeople back to is we don't judge
people by their mistakes.
We judge them by how well andhow quickly they remedy the
mistake if it happens.
Again, those two things.
So when we have thisenvironment where people are
(35:33):
focused on owning their mistakes, raising their hands say I blew
it without fear of retribution,we have to remember and live.
Weed.
Number six we pick each otherup Regardless.
If you're struggling at work,you're struggling at home.
Whatever the scenario is, andwe don't need to know all the
details.
We're not going to pry intopeople's personal lives but if
your results have always beenhere and all of a sudden they're
down here, you don't start thatconversation by saying what the
hell's up with your results.
(35:54):
You say, hey, man, everythinggoing all right.
I noticed that, I noticed, youknow, notice, you're not quite
performing at where you havehistorically and I just want to
make sure you're okay.
The second component of that oneis, I think, equally as
important.
We've got to lift people up tonew heights.
So it's not enough to picksomeone up when they're
struggling.
When someone is trying to takeon more, do more.
Maybe they want your job, maybethey want to leave your team
because there's an opportunitysomewhere else.
It's our obligation as humansto help them on that next step.
(36:17):
How many times have you guys?
I know I used to be in thesituation a member of the team
would come to me and say hey,man, I found this great role If
I was fortunate enough for themto share before it was too late.
I want to help them land thatnext job.
If I have nothing for them, Iwant them.
They need to know I care aboutthem and their growth, not what
they can do for me and for ourteam.
So we got to.
We must pick each other up aswe go seven to 10, it gets a
(36:39):
little more difficult for someto live.
We number seven is we measureourselves by outcomes, not
activity.
And the corporate world, Ithink, regardless of size, is so
obsessed and in love andinfatuated with meetings.
We have a meeting to talk abouta meeting and then we'll have
another meeting to talk aboutthat meeting and if there's any
scope creep, you guys know whatwe're going to do right, we'll
(37:00):
schedule another meeting.
We end up being so in love withbusyness that we lose sight of
the things that we're actuallyhere to do and that's deliver
outcomes.
Same with our same inside theteam.
It's like hey, aj, we've got astaff meeting next week.
Could you bring the uh, youbring the quarter four number, a
quarter one numbers, cause Iwant to discuss blah, blah, blah
.
Whatever you show up to the nextmeeting, you're like hey, aj,
(37:21):
where's that report?
You said oh well, I emailedJohn in finance, I'm still
waiting on that.
Not acceptable.
You walked away with the to-dofrom the last conversation To
show up again.
You have made a commitment andnot have it.
You have not delivered on thatoutcome.
That's not who we are.
If I can't trust you on my teamwhen we're aligned on the same
objectives, how can I trust youto do the most simple and
(37:41):
fundamental of things for us toachieve excellence?
So we've got to focus onoutcomes.
I say it this way, if you lookat your calendar and you see a
packed calendar, your doubletriple book, you have maybe 13,
14 meetings a day.
It's like look at thosemeetings and then juxtapose that
with your annual review process.
If you're lucky enough to havemore than one, that's great, but
connect those.
(38:02):
If you can't draw a straightline from those meetings, that
activity, to the outcomes forwhich you've been assigned, why
are you doing it?
It should be scrutinized.
We number eight we talked aboutwe challenge each other.
I think it's the most importantof them all.
It really unlocks growth anddevelopment among individuals,
but also team performance Lostwithout.
(38:22):
We number nine we touched onthat already.
It's we embrace challenge.
And then the last one is, Ithink, the icing on the cake,
and I was intentional not tohave it earlier in the list
because I think it's a recipefor disaster.
We number 10 is we obsess overdetails?
In so many environments, somany industries, the difference
between good and great, greatand excellent, excellent and
world-class is the details.
Are we obsessed enough to put aproduct or a service in front
(38:42):
of our client that we know wehave taken great care to develop
?
We've looked at it from allangles.
We're not perfect.
We're not striving forperfection, we're striving for
excellence, and that willseparate us from those who are
down the street trying to stealour consumer's dollar.
We must obsess over the details.
The details are not trivial.
The details are what make usgreat.
It will make us excellent.
So I just I wanted to thank youfor the opportunity to share
(39:05):
those.
The favor that I asked, I think,is important because if we find
ourselves, if we hold ourselvesaccountable to principles
inside and outside of theworkplace, we have this
authentic existence.
People know who we are, how theycan count, how and if they can
count on and why it is that wedo what we do.
More than a paycheck, more thanchecking boxes, it's about
(39:26):
having an impact on those youlead, those that you don't lead,
the person that you walk acrossthe hall with or walk towards
someone when you just say goodmorning versus keeping your head
buried down on your phone.
That's leading by example.
So, anyway, those are the 10wheeze and those 10 principles
came to me at probably midnight,1 am in Lawrence, kansas
transformed an organization ofmassive size, not just the
(39:48):
results, man.
We got to watch peopletransform from bosses to real
leaders, and I'll end thislittle monologue with this,
first 20 years of my career leftme with maybe two, three, maybe
a handful of confidants that Istill have regular contact with
the last 10 years, afterdiscovering these principles,
evangelizing them, writing thebook, I have kept in touch with
(40:09):
probably two dozen of formercolleagues.
To this day I have former directreports from two companies ago
that I still have scheduledone-on-ones with on a monthly or
bi-monthly basis.
Why?
Because they know I care aboutthem.
Should I stop caring because Idon't work there any longer?
That's not authentic.
So anyway, introducing thoseprinciples changed my
(40:33):
professional existence but also,I think, has made me a more
reliable friend, husband andpartner on business stuff.
So that's where I would end it.
Speaker 4 (40:39):
And good stuff.
So much to unpack there.
I'm going to make one commentand ask you to follow up on it,
because so much of what you saidreally just breeds a good
culture and I know a lot of yourwork is on establishing a
culture of excellence.
Peter Drucker said you know,culture eats.
Strategy for breakfast and thatsort of thing.
Two of your principles we takeaction.
(41:01):
I would just say I feel like weshould take action consistently,
but just because in myexperience and even doing some
consulting, I've seen a lot ofgood things get started, I've
seen a lot of initiatives, I'veseen a lot of good systems be
installed, but unless you'refollowing up on it every day,
(41:23):
you're maniacally focused on it,obsessed with it it typically
falls by the wayside and itdoesn't create just like the
suggestion box, right, it wasn'tfollowed through on.
Somebody didn't see that thingall the way through to the end
and follow it long enough, whereit created a positive culture.
(41:46):
So so that that was one of them, and the other one was to
another role, another position,another organization.
I just feel like that's lackinga lot in so many organizations
businesses and leadership models, and I don't know, I can't
quite put my finger on it.
Businesses and leadershipmodels, and I don't know, I
can't quite put my finger on it.
I don't know if it's, at worstit's insecurity and at best it's
(42:06):
a feeling of scarcity, of notwanting to lose the talent, not
wanting to develop the talenttoo much, not wanting that
person to outshine someone else,or something like that, so I
was just curious of yourthoughts on that.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
Um.
So I'll go um in reverse order,so starting with where you,
where you ended.
Um, it is ego.
I mean, that's what we touchedon earlier.
It's um, so many, many yearsago this is before I kind of had
this epiphany I had a fellow onmy team come to me and say Kyle
, I am this close to a roleoutside the company.
It's a title that I know he waskind of like my right hand guy.
(42:43):
Company.
It's a title that I know he waskind of like my right-hand guy.
It's a title that we don't haveand it's kind of an elevated
title versus what I have today.
And I know you can't match thiscomp.
So it's a good chance I'm goingto get this.
I've gone through this wholeinterview process.
I've got one final interview aweek from Monday and, to his
surprise, my reaction wasfantastic John, Good for you,
let me see your resume.
I was like what he said yeah,let me see your resume, let's do
(43:05):
a mock interview.
Who's the person you'respeaking with?
A week from Monday.
So I went on LinkedIn, foundthis guy and I played the role
we role played.
John was so ready for thisinterview, man, I was certain I
was leaving him or he wasleaving me and a week from
Monday comes and goes.
Tuesday morning I said, hey,dude, how'd it go?
Just waiting for the worstbecause he was a stud Still is
(43:29):
he didn't get the job.
We worked together for 14 moreyears at three different
companies Because you think hewas less loyal, you think he
trusted me less because I wantedto help him get.
Now, sometimes I'll have him.
So I say this a lot If you wantto leave this organization, I
will help you.
I Now sometimes I'll have them.
So I say this a lot like if youwant to leave this organization
, I will help you, I willabsolutely help you.
Some people read that into Iwant you to leave Because, again
(43:51):
, they're not going to tell youwhat they think you really want
to hear.
They're going to tell you what,so that I think they think I am
gently pushing them out and youhave to prove that and you have
to earn that equity with themover and over again.
So I love that story becauseit's 14.
Well, now it's 20 plus yearslater and we're still.
We're still in tight contactbecause I earned his respect, I
(44:12):
earned his trust and vice versa.
So I think that is that.
That.
That, I think, addresses your,your, your second question, the
take action part, your first.
The first part of your question, I think, is I'll I'll toss
back to a comment I made earlierit's harder.
It's harder.
It requires more work to be, tobe, an effective, impactful
leader, one that demonstratescare every single day, lives
(44:33):
these principles not every day,but every interaction.
It's harder, it takes more workbecause you start to prioritize
those around you over your ownobjectives, over your own kind
of personal growth and accolades, which, in a really ironic kind
of perverse twist that I neverunderstood until the last decade
or so, was when I put aside myown inclinations to ascend
inside of an organization andput all the energy into others.
(44:55):
It happens.
It happens anyway, because ifyou're leading a team with great
results, no one's going to say,hmm, who on that team can I
promote to replace Kyle or eventake them higher than Kyle?
It doesn't happen.
If you're a strong leader on ahigh-performing team, you will
be recognized and it doesn'tmatter who actually delivered
those results In most circles.
(45:15):
I'm not naive.
There are some weirdenvironments where people will
poach and kind of hopscotch theleader, but I think it's so rare
nowadays, especially nowadays.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
So, uh, man, I I first of all, I'd love the
simplicity of it.
I believe you know I forgetwhat the quote is, man, but if
you can't explain it simply, youdon't understand it well enough
.
And, um, I think everything yousaid really aligns with with my
personal values.
And, uh, I could certainly puta behavior analytic lens on and
be like that's all right, that'sreally good stuff.
I do want to end with this.
(45:47):
That is, everything you talkedabout is behavior.
The measure of a leader can befound in the behavior of the
followers, not in the results,because, as we all agreed on
earlier that there's lots ofdifferent ways to get results,
and you laid out beautifully abunch of really important
behaviors that are there, right,and I believe that if you value
something, you measure it, andtoo often we are not measuring
(46:09):
this stuff.
We're not checking the CR howmany people are doing the right
thing, you know?
Or even in some sort of socialvalidity survey, the climate
survey.
Do we believe that we do theright thing all the time?
Right, you said all the time isa good way.
Do we do it most of the time,you know?
Are we leading by example, youknow, or do we do it most of the
time?
Are we leading by example?
How often are we taking actionsbased on goals, et cetera, et
cetera.
So I believe that we have totake a look at if we're in a
(46:34):
leadership position and we havefolks below us that we're
supporting on the org chart.
We have to take a look at thebehavior of those folks.
That is the real measure of us,and if they're not performing,
they're not doing the rightthing no-transcript.
Speaker 3 (47:35):
The moon that was like the bar, and nearly three
years into it it has eclipsedthat by 50-fold, almost
Literally.
We're about 40,000 copies soldat this point and those
interactions that come fromreaders or people that might
follow on social media, theymake me better, which hopefully
in turn I can repay that favor.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (47:56):
Right on, man.
We've got to check back in withyou next year, man, and see how
things are going.
It was a great conversation,man.
Thanks for coming on, KyleMcDowell.
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