The Art and Science of Navigating a Struggling Relationship: Insights from Relationship Expert Lee Wilson

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the thoughts and rants of a behavior
scientist show Hosted by WallStreet Journal in USA Today.
Best-selling author, dr Pauley.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome back to another no holds barred episode
of the thoughts and rants of abehavior scientist.
I look, in this episode I'm nottiptoeing through the tulips,
I'm diving headlong into themire and complexity of human
relationships.
Why, you ask?
Well, because understanding thewhy and how behind our love
lives and interpersonal dealingsisn't just a casual curiosity.

(00:34):
It's the linchpin of our socialexistence.
We're hardwired to connect, butthat doesn't mean we're
hardwired to do it.
Well, the irony right Today Ihave the fortune of chatting
with relationship coach LeeWilson.
I mean, this guy is a dynamo inthe relationship coaching space,
so much so that the New YorkTimes actually wrote an article

(00:56):
about him and his work.
Now, whether you are picking upthe pieces post break up or
navigating the labyrinth ofmodern love, or maybe you're
just curious to find out whatthe behavior science behind
relationships might look like atdifferent levels, he's got
advice worth its weight in gold.
Now, he's not a behavioranalyst, but I am, and as a
behavior analyst I'm not contentwith just taking things at face

(01:18):
value.
So in this episode I do my bestto dive into some of the basic
behavior analytic conceptsimplicit in his recommendations.
Now, when you marry practicaladvice to solid behavioral
principles.
What you get is a level,insight and actionable strategy
that's nothing short oftransformative when it comes to
relationships.
So get your note patterns readyand let's roll up those sleeves.

(01:39):
Shall we?
Today's discussion isn't just aconversation, it's a toolkit.
By the end, expect to have notjust a deeper understanding, but
also a concrete, actionablesteps to implement if you're
struggling in your relationship,because what's the point of
knowledge if not to catalyzepositive change.
So let's dive in.
All right, coach Lee Wilson,welcome to the thoughts and

(02:05):
rants of a behavior scientistpodcast man, I am really stoked
to have you on here, maybe moreexcited than anybody else I've
ever had on my podcast, and I'vehad a number of people on here.
Man, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
Well, thank you so much, Paul.
I'm really glad to be here.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah, man.
And so, just for the listeners,I want to explain how I came
across coach Lee.
A number of years ago I wasactually doing some research to
write a book on relationshipswith a colleague of mine and, um
, I had I decided to write itbecause I don't remember where
it was.
Lee, can I call you Lee?
Sure, that more okay?

(02:39):
Uh, just for short.
Um, I was looking at a videosomewhere and this, this a video
, one of your videos, popped upon relationships and I remember
looking at some of the commentsin there and I could feel Just
the people's pain In there.
So I'm like this is interestingand you have like I mean
millions of views and hundredsof thousands of comments and

(03:02):
like, wow, this is like reallyintriguing.
There is like there's a clearneed here.
There are people in pain outhere and so, so that began my
journey of kind of lookingFurther into relationships and
through, you know, as a behavioranalyst, through a behavior
analytic lens, and, um, I'dnever finished the book.
There were some things thathappened where I was writing it

(03:22):
at and, uh, it's kind of stillsitting in a in a word document
somewhere.
But but, as I started lookingat, I started looking at a
variety of different coaches outthere online and what I found
was I found some commonalities,but I also found some things
that I felt very uncomfortablewith, and so I kept coming back
to your stuff, which I felt verycomfortable with, and I and I

(03:43):
was like man, this From abehavior analytic point of view,
it just kind of makes sense.
So I'd see people that were likekind of callous in their
approach and I'm a compassionateperson and your stuff always
comes from a place of compassionfor for both parties and, um,
you know, in building oneself,I'd hear people say, well, you
just got to cut them off, or youknow if they, if they broke up
with somebody and like, justJust cold, there's one I don't

(04:06):
want to say who it is, but Iknow there's somebody out there
that's pretty, you know, like,hey, tough next, you know, and
like that's not really the waythings work in relationships.
So, um, just the way you wentabout it really resonated with
me and uh, so I'm just gratefulthat you, you, uh, you know you
were joining me and so, um, I'mjust kind of wondering, how did
you, how did you get intocoaching?

(04:27):
And you know, after you talkabout that?
What is?
What is your?
You know philosophy behind it.
Where'd you come up with that?

Speaker 1 (04:34):
So how I got into coaching.
I was hired out of college todo internet marketing for a
marriage enrichment organizationand basically this group uh,
couples who were going todivorce would go to a workshop
that they had um last ditcheffort, um trying to save the
marriage.
And so they had marriagecoaches.

(04:57):
They called them marriageconsultants and you know I was
just an internet marketing guybut I was supposed to learn the
material and I did.
I I had to because I wastraveling with the president and
he was doing, he was makingspeeches on marriage, the
military and different groups,church groups, and um, so one of
the marriage consultants aterrific guy, just uh, one of

(05:21):
the salt of the earth, kindestpeople I've ever met developed a
terminal illness and had toresign.
He only had like three monthsto live.
It was just catastrophic, isawful.
And um, they asked me, would Ifill in for a couple weeks?
Because I mean the material sowell, and they're like you can
basically just Quote third party.
You know so, and so says thisdoctor so and so says this,

(05:44):
because I was in my early 20sand who wants to listen to an
early 20 year old about, youknow, relationship advice?
And so a month passed andthey're like we're not there yet
, just, can you do it foranother month?
And I did and it was going well.
His, the people he had beentalking to, enjoyed talking with
me.
They seemed to get some thingsout of it.

(06:04):
I was not speaking under my ownauthority so I was, you know,
quoting all these phd's and theycame back to me and said would
you just like to getcredentialed?
Would you like to, uh, getcertificate, certifications and
different things for coaching?
They had one.
And then there was anothercompany that had one and, um,
they're like you'll learn moreover time, but if you'd like to

(06:26):
do this, we'd like to go aheadand have you start.
So I was early 20s and mostlyjust speaking under, you know,
third parties and saying so, andso says this, and, and that was
really when I started and I wasonly about 21 or so, and so
that group there's basicallybeen three, I guess you'd call

(06:47):
them splits off of that maingroup and I took the first split
and we moved to anotherlocation and the, the
organization Grew a lot and Iwas continuing to do coaching.
And then we split into thethird where a group you know, I
was really not involved in thatmuch of it.
But there was a split, you know, in the company and one group

(07:09):
wanted to go one way, one groupwanted to go the other way.
So I picked aside and, um, Ihad permission to start doing
some things on youtube aboutdating relationships not
marriage, but datingrelationships and the channel
Took off.
It was.
It was a blessing that it tookoff, but that Concerned some
people, you know, and theystarted seeing me maybe his

(07:30):
competition, and so, long storyshort, we parted ways and I went
out on my own about six orseven years ago.
So I started with a group whodid this professionally.
They were marriage andrelationship coaches and PhD

(07:50):
Driven.
There was a PhD who had foundedthe, the organization, and I
actually assisted with a lot ofhis research.
So that's, that's how I gotgoing with relationship coaching
.
From a professional standpoint,you could say that I learned a
lot as a teenager.
That was through a lot of pain,obviously, and I think that
helps me to relate to people isremembering what that felt like.

(08:12):
And so you asked about myphilosophy on coaching.
I I want to be as real as I can.
I don't want anybody to feellike I'm being too optimistic or
too pessimistic, and I want topresent information.
There's there's a lot ofresearch out there on
relationships and on how thehuman mind works in

(08:32):
relationships, and so I want toshare that.
But I also want to be as realand human as I can,
understanding that I'm dealingwith people who are in pain and,
you know, one of the thingsthat really, early on, I think,
set me apart from some of theother guys is I wanted to have a
conversation with one person.
I felt like a lot of the otherpeople were kind of doing

(08:53):
infomercials, almost likethey're talking to a big crowd
and they're trying to put somefake energy into it.
I really just wanted to try tohave a conversation with one
person because I felt like thatwould.
Only one person is on the otherside screen watching at a time
right.
There may be millions of them,but there's one in front of the
screen and so they're not in acrowd of people watching most of
the time.
So that's how I wanted toapproach it and to to share what

(09:15):
I had learned and and I'vegotten to observe a lot of
things Since I've been doingthis for as long as I have, and
fortunately, that's great torefer back to, simply because
nothing beats Observation.
You know, I've seen this a lot.
That at least tells ussomething, and I think that it's
one of the the solid, thepieces of solid ground that we

(09:36):
can stand on when you're tryingto help someone who's going
through such emotionaldifficulty and trauma as they
would if if someone that theyloved left them.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
It really is, man.
I mean, trauma is a really goodword for it.
I was just reading somethingother today that talked about
relationships and like they,they actually had some
biological measure that thatsuggested that when you go
through a breakup, it reallyimpacts your body and like it's
like it's tremendous, like itmight even been more than like
death.
It was crazy, man, like, uh,what people were experiencing,

(10:10):
and so, and I and it's funny,you say that that's what I felt
like when I, when I was watchingit, it felt like you were
talking to me, which is sointeresting, man, you know, I
mean, you really have a greatknack for this Just your
compassion comes through.
You can feel that you've,you've experienced, you know,
you've experienced your own painwith it, and I guess you have.
You must have so much data inyour, your head.

(10:31):
You know, through all theexperience that you have, how
many.
I mean you're reachingliterally millions of people, um
, how many people who have youdirectly coached over the years,
would you say if you wouldguesstimate?

Speaker 1 (10:44):
Well, you know, I Did the recent figure on that a few
months ago and I had a numberand I'm trying to remember that
number, um, but basically it wasinto the Into the thousands,
and if you'll, if you'll give mejust a second, I'll be able to
give you a more accurate number.
Um, I'm just kind of trying tojust do this in my head.

(11:06):
Uh, so it's, it's somewhere inthe neighborhood of Like between
eight and ten thousand is whatyou know, and I think that's
conservatively speaking, but Ican, I'm, I'm confident that
it's been that, that number atleast.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
That's, that's amazing man.
So you've seen in her and I'mguessing you've made you know
mistakes at the beginning.
You know, Um, along the way.
Maybe we can dig into that alittle bit.
You know some of the mostimportant things.
You learn because people Um,you know, I'm sure people it
doesn't matter, you know we'reall well intended, you know it's
about our impact.
But you are walking a tightropehere because you know it's very

(11:48):
hard to know.
There's so many variables thatcould have impacted a
relationship, so many things.
And I see that some of thecomments like well, this didn't
work for me and blah, blah, blah, but I see a lot of comments
where it did work.
And of course, as a behavioranalyst, I understand that.
You know there's people'shistory, is going to be involved
in it.
You have two people's historyand then there's their
interactions between one another, their behaviors, and you know.

(12:10):
So there's just all thosethings navigating and people
tend to be poor observers oftheir behavior, poor observers
of the impact of their behavioron the environment, which means
the people in the environment,poor observers of the impact of
that environment which would bethe person in the other person
relationship on, on theirbehavior.
And so you have these peoplethat you know they might have
done some things that warrantedA breakup.

(12:33):
You know, uh, somebody you'redeciding to move on, but it's
hard for people to To to knowthat about themselves, and I
imagine that do you.
Do you find that through yourQuestion-asking strategies that
you come across, that you'rethinking, you know, like If I
was on the other end there, Imight have dipped as well?
You know?

Speaker 1 (12:54):
I've been in both situations and it's very common
where I'll feel sorry for theperson in the situation.
I think, why do you want thisperson back?
But I'll also be in situationswhere I'm thinking I already
know probably what happened andhow it was mostly your fault,
you know, and that you have anabrasive personality or keep

(13:15):
interrupting me and you knowI'll think I wonder if you did
this in the relationship.
And so I've definitely been onboth sides of that and I try to
understand that.
People are perfect and a lot oftimes people get into habits,
especially behaviorally, wherethey're not even sure when they
started doing it.
They don't recognize that theydo it anymore.
It's become so natural and sucha true habit.

(13:37):
And so you know, I try my bestto just be empathetic and
sympathetic with everyone Ispeak to.
But sometimes and sometimes Ihave those difficult
conversations.
Every week I'm going to have afew where I tell someone we need
to talk about the way thatyou're acting in this
conversation, even because myguess is you're doing a lot of

(13:58):
these things in the relationship.
Or they tell me some ways thatthey responded to some things
and they act as though that's nobig deal and I'm like, let's
talk about that for a minute.
You know they have tounderstand what they did wrong,
so to speak, or at least whatthey did to push this person
away.
That was unattractive or justmade the other person feel like

(14:19):
they didn't want to be in therelationship with them, and so
it can be really difficult.
Sometimes I have to be reallydirect with people.
I've said to some people Idon't know why you keep booking
these calls because you don'tlisten to me.
You might as well just mail mea check every month and let's
not talk.
You know, sometimes I have tobe a little bit direct because I
feel like they're paying me forthat.
But that's what they expect.
And in some ways I see it as away that I can help people who

(14:42):
are younger than me, because Iwish I had had someone come from
20 years in the future and talkto me when I was in my 20s,
who's seen some things and canhelp me think through some
things and who's made a lot ofbonehead mistakes and can say
watch out.
So I get a lot of fulfillmentfrom it and I hope that people
see that, even though no one canpredict the outcomes of two

(15:06):
people interacting and decidingif they want to be together both
of them and how that can playout in the future.
No one can predict that 100% ofthe time.
Nothing in life you can predict100% of the time, except for
death and taxes.
And so I have to accept thatI'm going to be wrong sometimes,
or that it's just not the rightsituation for certain people,

(15:28):
and sometimes, if you're in aterrible relationship, there may
be nothing that can bring theother person back.
But I also want to give theperson the best chance at it so
that they feel like that theyhad that chance and they'll be
better off in the future.
I think if they feel that way,yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
As I listen to you, I think about a lot of mistakes
I've made in past relationshipsand I'm glad I made those
mistakes now because I'm happywhere I'm at and who I'm with
and that's great.
But I could definitely see that, oh, my gosh man.
Yeah, I engage in a whole bunchof these behaviors and I
appreciate the integrity withwhich you are approaching this,
because you could just be taxingpeople for money.
Having that tough talk isreally important for their own

(16:06):
growth and I imagine some peopleget upset about it and they
decide they don't want coach Leearound anymore.
But a person of integrity wouldbehave the way that you're
doing.
So one of the things that I seeyou kind of hang your hat on is
this no contact rule.
And so if somebody broke upwith you and how you should

(16:33):
approach it, a lot of peopleengage in behaviors that are
like they beg and they plead andall this kind of stuff.
That is, we've all done it atsome point or another and from a
behavior and point of view, itmakes sense to me.
We would call it has.
There might be a couple of waysto look at it, but I would call

(16:54):
it a motivating operation andthat is, it's going to have a
value and behavior alteringeffect and you talk about that,
that altering behavior, and sothe way you suggest is that it
increases attraction, so you can, can you talk about that
because you advocate for, butalso you know some people might

(17:15):
see it as manipulative, but I'veheard the way you speak about
it.
I don't feel it's that way.
I've heard other people say,and it did feel manipulative
with the way they suggest thesame approach.
But there's other things, notjust about the no contact.
So you want to unpack that forus a little bit.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
So the no contact rule is, in my opinion, the
mature response when you'rebroken up with, simply because
when most people are respondingto a breakup, they become very
emotional and childlike, and Idon't mean that insulting, but
when we feel that we're atsomeone else's mercy and
everything's falling apart, alot of times we revert to

(17:51):
childish behavior.
I mean it's a way to cope withit, it's a way to try to find
help.
It worked when we were littlekids.
You know we cried and mom ordad would, would fix everything,
and so we carry a lot of thatwith us, a lot of it we learn to
do otherwise would becomeadults.
But so the idea that no contactis manipulative.
Well, to me, becoming emotionaland begging and pleading and

(18:14):
not listening to the otherperson when they say I don't
want to talk, you know, I wantus to break up, this is how it
is when you refuse to listen tothem and you choose to force
yourself into their life andshow up on announced and call
and tell them, and so I thinkthat it is more so than simply
not interacting with this person.
And so there's really there'sthere's multiple prongs, there's

(18:38):
multiple facets of facets of nocontact, and one of the things
is that you stop the bleeding,you stop doing things that are
that are completely wrong,because you know one of the
things that you can't do is youcan't do anything.
And one of the things that I'mreally sure of is that when

(18:58):
someone thinks that they want tobreak up with you and you
respond emotionally, you respondwhere you're trying to force
them or control the situation.
It makes them veryuncomfortable with you, and
especially when we're talkingabout how a woman might feel
regarding a man, becauseobviously men are bigger and
stronger, more aggressive, andso when you have and I talked to

(19:20):
guys about this a lot I'll sayyou've probably grown up where
you've been told as a man, ifyou try hard enough and you work
hard enough, you'll get it, andif it doesn't happen, you've
got to push harder, you've gotto work hard, you've got to put
in more hours, you've got tobring on another consultant,
you've got to do whatever ittakes to get what you want, and
the answer is to do more.
And so I'll tell a lot of them.

(19:43):
Have you ever been in a momentwith her where she where, where
you thought about her beingafraid of you, and it's like
what are you talking about?
Like, well, when you havesomeone in front of you who is
seen as physically bigger,physically stronger, more
aggressive, and she's known thather entire life, and now this
guy is yelling or he's crying,you know, or he's some of the

(20:05):
guys, a lot of them they willdescribe kind of I don't want to
say grabbing in a violent way,but they put their arms kind of
under her shoulders, on her,onto her arms and they're
holding her, talking to her, andthe thing is they're so intense
in the situation becausethey're trying to make something
happen and they're distraughtand they're they're hanging on
by a thread and it's difficultand they're sometimes, you know,

(20:26):
shaking her a little bit,squeezing tight.
I'm like, do you see how thatcan make her want to get away
from you?
That can be scary.
I mean, you're thinking, isthis guy stable?
And do you know that the messyou're putting yourself in by
adding that to the breakup aswell?
Is it not just that she thinksshe wants to break up with you?
But now you're acting unstable,you're acting creepy, you're

(20:50):
scary, and a lot of guys do that.
They become so emotionalbecause they love her and they
can't stand the idea of losingher and because it hurts that
someone you think loves you allof a sudden walks away and guys
will try to do anything to fixit, and a lot of times they can
come across as intimidating,scary, and then they're in a big
mess.

(21:10):
And so when I, when I tellpeople to go into no contact,
first of all it's giving theperson what they're asking for,
which is difficult to do,difficult to do when you don't,
when you don't want that, andfor some reason camera just went
off.
There.

(21:32):
It is there, it is Zoom.
A lot of times men are notconsidering that and they're
just trying to save themselvesand save the situation.
There's desperation and traumaand they can come across bad,
and so can women.
Obviously, it can be veryintimidating and very unnerving

(21:53):
to have someone very emotionalin front of you who will not
stay away, and so that's kind ofthe first thing that you want
to prevent is you don't wantthem thinking that not only were
they right about the breakupbecause you're acting Unstable,
but now they're, they're scared,they're probably going to talk
to some people about it, andthen, when the people are,
people around them hear that anda lot of guys don't understand

(22:16):
this because in their mind, theyknow their intentions.
As we say, everything that aperson does is right in their
own eyes because they're insidetheir head thinking about it, so
they feel like their intentionsare pure.
And yet a lot of the friendsaround this girl, this woman,
are going to say, wow, he didthat.

(22:38):
He raised his voice, he grabbedyour arms.
I mean it's going to sound likeyou're the Hulk and that you're
dangerous and they're going toencourage her to stay away from
you.
So you're inviting a lot ofproblems.
And the other thing is simplythat when someone tells you they
don't want you in their life,that the idea that you could
give them more of that, more ofthe thing they're telling you

(22:58):
that they don't want, and thatthey would respond positively to
me, that's wishful thinking,that's an incorrect
understanding of human behavior,and no conduct is the opposite
of manipulation.
Because if the other personsays this is what I want and you
show them respect for that, Idon't understand where the

(23:19):
manipulation part is.
If anything, it's showing themthat you're a good listener,
that you can put what you wantaside because it does not match
what the other person wants, andthat's something I have to tell
people a lot is that what youthink is in there inside of them
, as far as the desire to bewith you is not there anymore,
and so it's almost as thoughyou're dealing with a different

(23:41):
person.
And that's one of the thingsthat's most frustrating is just
a few weeks ago this personwanted to be with you, maybe.
So in my opinion, no conduct isthe opposite of manipulation
and it's the mature response.
When someone says I don't wantyou in my life anymore, it's
basically saying if you don'twant me, I'm not going to force
my way in.
You know, a gentleman's notgoing to stay where he's not

(24:03):
wanted and he's not going topitch a fit and show anger
either, but it's just it'sdisappearing from this person's
life.
And sure, there is an elementthat says let's really see if
this is what you want.
And you know we do that in allkinds of aspects of life where
if we think the other person ismistreating us, maybe we try to

(24:24):
let them see that in some way byeither we stop talking to them
about a certain topic, we don'tspend as much time with them,
things like that when theymistreat us.
And if you want to consider abreakup, mistreatment, I think
there's a decent argument forthat.
It certainly feels that way,but basically you're just not
going to reward the person andwe talked about Well, I know in

(24:49):
some of the questions.
We're going to be talking aboutan extinction type of situation
and that deals with, you know,behavior of reward and then all
of a sudden, the reward stops,and I do have some things to say
about that, you know, regardingno contact.
But as far as it beingmanipulation, I've never.
I've never understood or agreedwith people who suggested that
it was because the opposite isthat you, you try to force what

(25:12):
you want and not what they want,and You're going to pester them
and annoy them and push themaway and tell them basically and
that this is another partthat's scary If you tell the
other person I know, this iswhat you want, it's not what I
want.
So therefore, I'm going to pushyou, I'm going to irritate you
because I'm not getting what Iwant and it that right there can

(25:34):
cause someone who's maybe Nottotally sure about the breakup,
because people are rarely 100%sure about anything.
But if they weren't 100% sureand now you were acting as
though what you want is the onlything that matters and what
they want is not important.
Some of this is going to belike a self-fulfilling prophecy,
where they're going to say Ithink I made the right decision

(25:55):
here because this guy's actingunstable, this woman's acting
unstable, and so trying to avoidthat, in my opinion, is is
Easily the best route to go.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, and I think that you know come putting back
on my behavior, analytic lens Toyour point.
Who, whoever's leaving yousomething, your value somehow
has gone down right.
Whatever you, no matter whatyou think you have lost, you had
no longer that level ofreinforcement that you were
before.
Now there's two things.

(26:26):
You're the reinforcement level,who go down, or the amount of
version in the relationshipmight go up, right, and so when
you get more aversiveness thanyou have reinforcement, you're
gonna get people who are goingto escape, and so there's.
So the example I guess of thatwould be like you have a couple
that they were doing lots ofthings together and they just

(26:46):
got bored with each other.
They stopped engaging in goingdate night or having fun
together.
It's not that anything badhappened, it's that the quality
of the relationship has suffered, so the value of the individual
has gone down and maybe theydecided they want to move on, or
something like that.
Or you have like the person whois just doing some things that
are not very nice.
You know they're notcommunicating well, they're
yelling, screaming, trying to betoo to controlling, and even if

(27:10):
they're a powerful reinforcer,that has become too much and
People are going to want toescape.
And so, as you're advocatingthere for this, for this, no
contact.
Well, what I love about it isthat you're not just saying go,
no contact.
You are getting people toengage in replacement behaviors,
and these replacement behaviorsare right.
This committed action Is thatyou want people to Work on

(27:32):
themselves.
Right, and that is giving themsomething to do.
Because I think to your point,you can't control other people.
We can't make people do things.
In fact, if you try to makepeople do things, I think you
can.
Comes back to your point.
You're trying to now coercethem in Coersion, especially
under these conditions.
You have no.
That's just going to lessenyour value if you're trying to

(27:53):
force yourself upon somebody.
And so you know, as you talkabout working on yourself, you
know what are some things thatyou want people to focus on.
We talk about this persondevelopment.
What are the ideas of this?

Speaker 1 (28:07):
Well, the idea is is that if we are motivated to do
something, want to do something,then we're going to work hard
to make it happen.
And the same is true withattraction.
I see attraction as motivation.
When you are very attracted tosomeone, you're more likely to
want to work on issues and stayin the relationship because
you're going to think well, Iwant to be with them.

(28:29):
So these issues are not pushingme away from them.
They're making me want to fixthe issue so that we get along
better and this is betterbetween us.
But over time, the negativeexperiences can cause emotional
attraction to fall and in time,you won't.
Oftentimes you'll evenphysically look at them
differently.
And so, basically, the idea isis that if, while you are in no

(28:55):
contact, if you are working onyourself for this person or for
a future partner, certainly itgives you some structure and it
allows you to be working onaddressing the problem itself,
even though the main problemscan be seen as this other person
who's gone and not coming backto you right now.

(29:15):
But it's going to help you feellike you're actually addressing
the issue that caused them toleave, and some of that might be
beyond a person's ability toreally Influence.
But if you feel like you'remaking some progress toward that
, first of all it's going tofeel good.
And you're going to feel likethat, if you do have that

(29:36):
opportunity with them, that youhave a good chance of them
seeing Changes, especially ifit's physical change or, a lot
of times, just the way that youpresent yourself.
Like I mentioned, people whointerrupt a lot or maybe they
talk over people and they theykind of browbeat people in
conversations, things like that.
When they realize that and theywork on that, that's another

(29:56):
thing that if this person everdoes say, well, let's have
coffee, you have this incredibleopportunity to to show them
that you've changed.
And A lot of times people willget to a point where maybe the
ex does not come back, but theyhave Done these things, they
feel better about themselves,they feel like that they are
more attractive now goingforward with potentially other

(30:18):
people, and so it can be awin-win.
But a lot of times people willget that opportunity and In, in
my opinion, no contact is also abit of a doorway for them to
accept change.
Because a lot of times If youview the person as selfish,
which, if you're in arelationship long enough, you're
going to see the other personBehave selfishly because we all

(30:42):
do it every now and then, atleast every now Then some people
do it all the time and theyexpect everything to be done
exactly as they want and thatthey're put on this pedestal.
So some people do it a lot.
But if you potentially view theperson this way, then your
expectation when they don't gettheir way is that here comes the
drama, here comes the fit, andwhen that doesn't happen, and

(31:04):
when you stay away from someone,it shows them emotional
strength.
And so a lot of times when Iput timelines on these things
and and these are generic,they're basic it's not like we
can count the days down and say,okay, my ex is now in this
stage, but it does make a lot ofsense as far as Looking at how

(31:25):
the other person is going torespond to your silence and what
they're going to think of it.
And a lot of times, what theysee is that the other person is
strong enough to stay away,which can prevent the other
person from feeling like, sinceI broke up with this person, I'm
so much more attractive andthey're so far beneath me.
But if you, if neither of you,appear to be pursuing the
relationship at the moment kindof puts you on equal footing,

(31:45):
and so you know we could.
We could say, well, that thatis manipulation or that's,
that's trickery or somethinglike that.
Well, I don't see it that way.
I See it as demonstrating,first of all, that you can do
something you don't want to do,because a lot of times people
are having a lot of troubleWanting to reach out to this
person and if they can show them, because the, if the other

(32:07):
person knows you love them, wantto be with them, and then
you're not fighting this, theonly thing they can think of is,
well, he's respecting my wishesor he's strong enough to move
on without me, and these thingsare positive.
But the idea that focusing onyourself and not just on your ex
, not just on the loss, can bereally powerful and the the.
To me, the best thing thatpeople can do is To interact

(32:31):
with their friends and theirfamily and really take it
seriously, because usually whenyou're going through this, it's
miserable and you're alone and Imean it's rough.
But if you get these peoplearound you who love you, first
of all, people who feel lovefrom others tend to be
emotionally more attractive, andthere's a lot.
I have a lot of ideas on whythat could be the case.

(32:51):
It just seems to be anobservation that when someone is
used to receiving love from alot of people, they tend to
interact well with others, thatto the point that they.
There's something about thatthat makes them more attractive,
and it also reminds you thatthere are people in your life
who are not just going to breakup with you.
They're not just going to leaveyour, your parents, hopefully

(33:13):
your brothers and sisters, closefriends.
You've known for years thatthey're not just going to say
you know, it's not you, it's me,let's just stop talking.
That's nice to know as well,because you tend to think that
this other person, that they'rethe only source of Affection or
love that you have in the world,and it's nice to know that
they're not.
And so these can, these thingscan be really beneficial to

(33:34):
someone in that situation, andespecially if the people know
what they're trying to do andcan encourage them to keep
staying away.
That's a great situation aswell.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Well, I imagine that part of this Builds resiliency
within people because they'rehaving to, you know, and it
makes them more flexible thatthey're going to have to as
they're committing to, you know,learning about themselves
because the relationship didn'twork out and Maybe they need to
do something more or less ordifferently, and maybe not.
I think it really is gonna haveto do with how much I like to

(34:04):
call a relationship bank, like,how much money did you put into
the relationship bank, right?
So how valued are you by theperson if they've put that money
in the bank and then, kind oflike, through a behavioral
economics point of view, it'slike the scarcity creates demand
, you know, so that you have thelimited resource in this case
is the attentions, the, thepresence of everything, and this

(34:25):
would actually, could you know,evoke some behaviors that are
aimed at securing it, getting itback again.
I imagine that can happen withit.
But, on the other hand, if youhaven't put that money in the
relationship bank, if youhaven't established yourself as
A person of value, then you know, I think when I look at some of
these Folks that are out there,or enough value, I see them

(34:47):
saying why haven't heard from?
I've heard back from them inthree months, six months, and
I'm like, well, you know theyeither Didn't put enough money
in that bank or Somebody foundsomething else that's even more
valuable to them in the moment.
Those are the things that arejust not controllable.
But in the meantime, if I'munderstanding you correctly,
you're still because you wereworking on yourself, you were

(35:08):
becoming more resilient and youknow you're becoming maybe a
better version of yourself forthe Next, next relationship.
Now I want to.
I know you I'd mentionedextinction before and some of my
notes to you and like that, Iwant to.
I want to reflect on that fromJust briefly.
And that is, you know we mightlook at it.

(35:31):
Extinction, by the way, is whenpeople don't have access to a
reinforcer right you?
Usually that's going to go theother way around.
When people like they, you knowthat the person who wants to
breakups like you know what I'mremoving all my Reinforcement
from you, my attention, and nowthe extinction burst is the
people, the person whining andcrying and blah, blah, blah.

(35:51):
And so we could look at thisalmost like as counter control,
meaning that you know what I'mgonna give you back.
You know, if you don't like mypresence, I'm going to give you
my absence and again you have tobe a person of value for that
to work.
And then perhaps you knowyou're putting the behavior of

(36:12):
You're getting gonna get anextinction burst from the person
who you left, like, oh man, I IMiss this person and I need to
reach out to them and they beginto do some things, more or less
.
They're different than they didbefore because they they don't
want to lose that individual.
I don't know if that's makingsense.
I kind of worked around that ina way, but you know, does that

(36:33):
align with what your approach is?
You see it as a form ofextinction.

Speaker 1 (36:37):
As I laid it out there and maybe I didn't do a
great job of laying it outthere- well, I Think that it
makes sense to put it in thatcategory, and I don't know that
it lines up perfectly, but Ithink that it definitely is in.
You're in the right mindset ifyou're thinking about it that
way, because the idea is, youknow, if, if a rat gets used to

(36:59):
pressing a button and getsappellate, then he's gonna do
that, and then, when it stops,he's gonna keep trying for a
little bit and then he's gonnastop, and so basically, it's
just that you, you, you respondto Rewards, so or you do things
because you expect the outcometo be beneficial, and if it
stops being that way, thenyou're not gonna do it anymore.
And where I think that appliesto breakups is a couple of

(37:21):
things.
So, first of all is that, likeyou said, we have to look at
value and reward and and allthat, and we don't want to teach
the other person that, goingforward, that they can use a
breakup to manipulate us.
And we talked aboutmanipulation and whether no
contact was.
Well, sometimes and I hear thisquite a bit a person will have

(37:41):
no intention of ending therelationship, but what they
think is going to happen is well, I'm gonna break up with this
other person and that'll teachthem a lesson.
And they'll come running backand begging and pleading and
I'll kind of get all this egostroke and they'll treat me
right and going forward, they'llhave learned their lesson and
they'll beg for me back and youknow it, to me that's a big game

(38:01):
and and you want to teach theperson first of all that they
can't do that to you.
So if they, if they break upwith you and you don't do
anything, you don't beg andchase and plead and you just
disappear, then at least theyknow going forward, that they
can't use a breakup tomanipulate you because you're
not going to do anything.
I mean you just stop, you takeyourself away when, when someone

(38:25):
breaks up with you, and sothere's that element to it that
you're teaching the other personthat that you know you're.
You're not going to reward themfor breaking up with you and
you also, as you said, you takeyourself out of it, meaning that
if you two had a goodrelationship and if your
attraction had not justplummeted too low.
But you know, sometimes issuescome up and feelings fade and

(38:50):
you know I certainly have a lotto say about that.
But if someone sees it asyou're still an attractive
person and we had a good thing,but it just faded out.
When you're taken out of thesituation, there can be sort of
a freshening, because if you'veever not seen someone in a while
a good friend or something likethat there's something
different.
When you see them, they alwayslook a little bit different.

(39:12):
You know, your hair looks alittle bit different.
There's just somethingdifferent about a person when
you haven't seen them in a whileand the whole concept can
create kind of a double take,emotionally speaking, where a
lot of times they don't expectyou to stay away, especially if
they started seeing themselvesas I can do better and I'm the

(39:32):
more attractive one here, thenit's a little bit
counterintuitive if you're theone who could stay away from
them and they're like why is henot chasing me, why is she not
chasing me?
And so there's a lot going onhere.
But you can if you are indeedthe reward, and a lot of times
people who break up with someonedon't realize how important
this other person's presence isin their life, and that's why

(39:54):
you get people who are confusedbecause they'll say she broke up
with me, he broke up with me,and they keep contacting me.
It's almost every day.
Well, that's because they wantedto break up, but they didn't
want to get rid of this person,which is kind of odd.
And you're wanting to try to usesome of that, because if you
two had a good thing and theyhave some good memories with you

(40:15):
, then you want to, basicallyyou want to hit on that natural
desire to go after somethingwe've lost.
And so if they do start lookingback and seeing that you were
good, in a relationship, there'sa lot of great things, we had a
lot of great trips, a lot ofgreat memories, and those are
being taken away because you'vedisappeared, it's calling their

(40:36):
bluff in a very mature way, inmy opinion, and it's also
valuing yourself and that youbelieve and that you're acting
this way that if you takeyourself out of the situation,
first of all that you will bealright.
Eventually You'll grieve,that's normal, but eventually
you'll be alright.
And it also shows them that youbelieve in yourself enough that

(40:58):
you don't have to beg and pleadand try to do all these things,
that you're enough as you areand that you believe that either
they'll see that or they won't,and that you'll be okay either
way.
And that's the message thatcomes across a lot of times and
that's a very attractive message.
That's really great for someonewho broke up with you to know,
because it can change how theythink about you, especially if

(41:19):
they thought you were lessattractive than them.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
I think I love that and, going back through a
behavioral lens of this state ofdeprivation, it's like if you
don't have water, if somebodysays you want a glass of water
and like I don't really want itright now, but if you're really
thirsty right, being away fromthat water, again it has this
value altering effect.
But if you don't, you know, ifyou like, I don't like, what are

(41:43):
I like I don't know.
There's some vegetable I don'tlike.
I can't think about it rightnow.
But if you don't like a certainvegetable and you remove that
from squash, there you go.
I don't like squash, good one,and you remove that from my
plate.
It already doesn't have valuefor me.
I'm not going to miss it.
So I think the secret we'retalking about what to do if
somebody breaks up with you andI know that you would have a lot

(42:05):
to say about this stuff.
I mean, you don't want it to goto this.
They're reaching out to youbecause it's already happened.
Right, in an ideal world andrelationship, all of this stuff
is being worked on ahead of timeand my guess is I'm certainly
don't have 8000 to 10,000 datapoints like you do.

(42:27):
But what happens in arelationship where people tend
to drift.
I know I think you call itlimerence, right, where it's the
beginning of and people reallyin love with each other, or put
love in quotes, because I don'tknow if that's what love is or
not, how much it.
Then it kind of shifts to apartnership.
I believe and those are just mywords for it, maybe you have

(42:48):
some different words but I feellike they'd stop investing.
Like when you're first in arelationship, people are going
way above and beyond to be withone another and they're just
doing all this stuff and thenthey stop engaging in those
behaviors and then their valuefor one another ends up drifting
and then their behavior driftsin other directions.
So I still want to come back tothe no contact, but I want to

(43:12):
insert this in here because Idon't want people to think this
is the place to go.
You don't want to go here,right?
This is going to be alast-ditch effort if somebody
dumped you.
But what are some key things tomake sure relationships stay
fresh?
What's been your experience?

Speaker 1 (43:27):
Well, that's a big, complex question and you touched
on limerence and that's part ofthe answer, because a lot of
times people will experiencelimerence at the beginning of a
new relationship and it's morethan just the fireworks of a new
relationship.
There's definitely somechemical connection to this,

(43:47):
where our bodies are producingthese things and they're
attached to a specific personand it's really.
It's a brilliant system,because why else would we want
to have a conversation with astranger and keep having these
conversations and go to dinnerwith this stranger and go on
planned trips or whatever?
When you're in the early stages, it's because of limerence.
Limerence is driving you tointimacy, which is where you

(44:09):
know the other person,emotionally, physically,
intellectually, inside and out,and so it's the fuel.
And the real question is can arelationship survive limerence
fading?
Because it will.
It's similar to I'm not goingto, you know, I think it's kind
of cheesy when people compare itto a drug addict, but there's
some similarities.

(44:29):
You definitely become somewhatdependent on the chemical and
the sensation, the feelings youget from that, and especially
when it's attached to anotherperson, it's euphoric, it
basically drives you to wherethat becomes the goal of your
life in many ways is to be inthe presence of this person, you
feel like you can breathe asigh of relief and it's an

(44:50):
incredible experience.
People will say things likeI've never felt this way before
and even if they've said thatbefore a lot of times, people
have said that before to someoneelse.
But the thing is they'retelling the truth, because
limerence with each person isvery different.
It's it's its own adventure.
Now the real issue becomes,since we know it's going to fade

(45:11):
.
You have to have things thattake the baton from limerence,
and ideally that would becompanionship and commitment and
a feeling of family, which Ihad a really interesting
conversation with somebody theother day because we were
talking about their situationand I said it doesn't sound like
this person thought of you asfamily and they had been

(45:32):
together for a long time 15years or so and this person
would keep leaving.
And you know, that's where, insome ways, I mean we can get
into the theories of it.
But the idea is that thisperson, especially if you marry
them, that they become yourfamily.
They're not just your boyfriendor girlfriend, they're not just

(45:52):
a dating partner, but when youmarry them, you make them part
of your family and obviously I'mnot talking incestually here,
but you know, there's there'selements to this person's a lot
like my sister.
They're also a lot like mymother.
You know they nurture me as mymother did, but we have this fun
and this, this flirtatious timetogether, a lot like my sister,
I mean.
It's it's.

(46:13):
It's a little odd when you getinto it, but you can relate to
the other person in that way andyou should have that feeling of
family, the companionship andthat commitment and the intimacy
.
And if those things don'tdevelop when limerence fades
away, then it's going to feellike the relationship is over
and people will say, well, itran its course, you know, or my

(46:33):
feelings just faded, my feelingschanged.
Usually what that means is islimerence went away and there
wasn't much left.
And so that's why that it'simportant during during a
limerence situation that you,you do try to enact some of
those other things.
And that's where things are notpleasant.
A lot of times people, whenthey're dealing with someone in

(46:54):
a relationship, they're inlimerence with this person,
though they will avoid any kindof negatives with that person
because the other feels so muchbetter and so you know, we won't
do paperwork together.
A lot of times, people, whenthey're still in limerence, they
don't have to deal with ascreaming child together or
stomach flu, all these negatives, and a lot of times they're

(47:14):
only seeing each other underperfect situations where we both
look our best, we both allcleaned up.
You know it's not the realworld and so a lot of times the
real world can, can, can do anumber on someone who is only
used to experiencing limerenceand so understanding that just
because that goes away does orat least fades some because and

(47:39):
ideally the relationship wouldstill have some of it there
would still be some of thatpassion, there would still be
some of the butterflies and justthat, that eros of being around
that person and using that word.
That's a Greek word and theGreeks had more than one word
for love, which is a lot betterlanguage system, because we will

(47:59):
talk about I love this car, youknow, I love that he did that,
and I love this person and Ilove this dog and I love this
copy, and we're using this word.
That's all encompassing.
It's supposed to be this hugeword and yet we use it for small
things.
But the Greeks didn't do that.
They had multiple words forlove and they had arrow switches

(48:24):
and erotic love and they hadfilet, which is a friendship
love.
That's where we getPhiladelphia, the city of
brotherly love.
Then we have a gape which isunconditional love, like a
husband and a wife or a man anda woman, and so if we tend to
think of it as love is complexand has multiple layers to it

(48:46):
and all of these have a placeand all are important, then it
can help us a lot of timesunderstand what's going on with
a relationship and it canprevent us from being addicted
to the newness that's designedto get us to the point where we
probably are with the partnerthat we're with now.
And so if we understand that,then I think that a lot of

(49:07):
people are going to have a muchbetter concept of how the
relationship is going to playout and that and what love is
and what love isn't.
Because if we make limerencelove, where that madly in love,
wanting to spend every second ofthe day together, just can't
keep our hands off the otherperson, want to basically tell

(49:29):
everybody I've never felt thisway before that will all fade
away, and when we can learn thatand accept that, we have a much
better chance of thisrelationship being long term,
because we'll learn that wedon't have to rely on just that,
that we have these other thingstoo, and the most important
being, commitment, is the mostversatile element to this is

(49:52):
that if you have commitment, ifthat's what is there after
limerence fades away and you'releft with commitment among other
things, but hopefully a lot ofcommitment, then that can get
you through as some of theseother things start to fade out a
little bit, but it also canhelp bring them back, because
relationships are in many waysthey're life and death over and

(50:15):
over, and that a lot of times weexperience negatives with the
other person, and it's arefreshing thing because we get
some things out, we discuss somethings, maybe we have a
disagreement or argument, butthen we make up and it can
actually be a really great wayto keep this thing moving
forward and for us to have ahistory with someone that says

(50:37):
we can overcome the negatives.
So I know I said a lot there,but I think I love it, man.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
I think this is a really.
I had never heard it spokenabout until I heard you in a
video about it, and I think fromthe behavior analytic point of
view, we could look at limerenceas like this kind of complex
change of covert and overtresponses.
We see emotions and thoughtsand feelings as just covert
responses or just behaviors thatyou can only observe, and it's

(51:07):
like you're in this heightenedstate where every interaction or
potential interaction becomeslike a you know with whoever you
know.
The object of your limerence isa powerfully reinforcing event
and the problem with that isthat it also can provide, like
this, intermittent reinforcementand when things are

(51:27):
intermittently reinforced itbecomes harder to put it on
extinction, like the behaviorwill stay for a long time, and I
think that makes it like adouble-edged sword.
And, by the way, if we talkabout limerent behaviors, we can
talk about like you knowchecking your phone all the time
or you know just drivingunheard of you know distances in
order to see somebody and youknow staying on the phone for

(51:51):
hours and hours and engaging inbehaviors with this person
instead of like your workbehaviors, like all sorts of
other things.
Right, and so it can be, youknow, maintained by both
positive reinforcement, and thatit feels good, but also that
feeling negative reinforcement,that it feels terrible.
It's almost like you get thesense of withdrawal, you know,
and you want to get it back, andso you reach out and you engage
in all these behaviors and Ithink it's a really powerful

(52:14):
point that you're making.
I like the analogy you made withpassing the baton and I think
that probably that would be asign of, maybe, emotional
maturity or like relationshipmaturity.
I'm not sure how to explainthat, but you know, where does
love start?
Right, where does the limerenceend in the love start.
And I think your point is likeyou have a partnership with

(52:35):
somebody and in my opinionthat's where the how we're going
to find the love really starts,because it's waking up every
day and you know you'resomebody's laying next to you
and that feeling, that wonderful, amazing feeling that you had
for some months, or maybe thefirst two years, begins to fade
off and you know they've gotmorning breath or whatever.
You know what I mean.
They're sick, they're not goingto work, you got to share bills

(52:57):
.
You know I personally want tosee how people behave, you know
when things go wrong.
But I think that, from my pointof view, what anchors people in
these situations are likeshared core values, right, and
if you don't have those sharedcore values, when things start
to get shaky, people are goingto drift because that limerence

(53:18):
and again I love the word andlove the concept of it is going
to wear off.
I'm sure it has some survival.
You know reason that we use itbecause you know we need to
survive, we need to have apartner.
So, you know, somehow itevolved, there's some
evolutionary quality here forthat.
But I think just people havingaware of what that is and
they're in the state of it andwhat's going to happen that is

(53:40):
not going to maintain, andpeople that I'm sure that you
work with a lot jump from.
You know, I think the analogyof addiction is probably just a
good one, man, because they wantto capture that feeling again
and again and again, at anyexpense and at the expense of
many relationships and manyheartbreaks.
I think.

Speaker 1 (54:00):
Yeah, it's very similar to addiction.
I think the word is overused inour world and that's why I tend
I try not to say it, but I havesaid it before and people
operate as though it is becausethey will give up careers,
they'll give up family, they'llwalk away from their children
and just kind of think, well,they'll figure it out.
You know, children areresilient, so I'll just walk

(54:22):
away and I'll go live this dreamlife because it's just so good
that it's going to basically beoverwhelming to everything else
that I have and that's justgoing to have to take a back
burner.
We can put people in functionalMRI machines and show them
pictures of human beings, justgo through them and when you get
to the limber and object, thereis a definite change and a

(54:45):
definite response in the waythat the brain works.
And it's pretty amazing.
Dr Helen Fisher and some otherswho have just been really
especially in our modern timesreally studying limberants, have
taught us a lot about that.
And you know, one of the thingsI do a workshop for marriages

(55:05):
and crisis, and the workshop iscalled Relationship Reignite and
the most difficult part of itand I've done this for a very
for a long time, because this iswhat that original organization
who works specifically withmarriages that was one of the
first things I learned was look,when this person's in
limberants, they are notrational, they're not reasonable
.
Everything is about thisexperience with this other

(55:28):
person and getting to it at allcosts, no matter who they had to
give up or walk away from orwhat they had to give up, and so
that's a really difficultsituation, but it also clarifies
it for a lot of people, andonce you get someone who's in
limberants to see it andsometimes I'm able to be really
direct with them and just it'sjust them and me, and I'll say

(55:51):
so.
You've never felt this waybefore.
Right, yeah, never felt thisway before.
This is just brand new.
This is nothing like it, andI'll say this is my person, or
this is fate, or this is mysoulmate.
I'll say so the person you'remarried to now did you ever tell
them you've never felt this waybefore.
No, no, never.
You never said to them maybesecond month, third month,

(56:14):
fourth month that you two aredating.
You never said I never feltthis way before.
And they'll start to get kindof quiet and they'll be thinking
and no, I don't know, I don'tthink so.
A Lot of times they willremember eventually saying that
or the other person has loveletters which have kind of
become extinct, I think, withwith our phones and texting and

(56:38):
all that.
But People still do write themsometimes, because there's
nothing quite as romantic asgetting a letter that someone's
written to you and it's gonna bea love letter another member
behavior.
Yeah, that's right.
Mm-hmm and if they keep thoseand Can look back on them.
Almost always the other personhas said the same thing to them.

(56:59):
They've said I never felt thisway before.
And they'll say you know, itfeels like there's a spiritual
element to it, and they justdescribe it in these beautiful
terms.
And so, because of the fact itfeels different with each person
and Because they have suchintimacy with the person they're
wanting to leave that there'snot that drive for discovery

(57:20):
anymore, it can feel like thisis a completely new experience.
But once, once you get someone,it's um, it can be disturbing to
realize I did say this to them,I did feel this way about this,
this person I'm trying to leavenow, and Then I can say
something to them like but butyou have children too with this

(57:43):
person, you know, and the newperson that you're in limerence
with you don't.
So You're not responsible forthese other life forms with this
new person, but you are withthis other person.
And I can also show them thatthis is a process and in many
ways it's predictable.
When someone is willing, whenthey're open to a relationship,

(58:03):
that they're in a greatsituation for it and and it's a
very normal and common thingbecause it does bring us to
intimacy with this other person.
It's part of the process, orelse what's the point of all the
effort?
I see people just that they,they spend a lot of money, they
put so much time into it, andpart of it, too, is that the the

(58:25):
the fact that it's on thinglass, it's on thin ice, it
feels like it could be takenfrom you at any moment.
That that really fuels it uptoo, because you, you, you
create this scarcity on thissituation that you could lose it
Any second and it makes thevalue just skyrocket as well.
And so we do these things toourselves.

(58:45):
But in a marriage situation,when you're, your partner, is In
limerence with someone else,that's when it's really
difficult and it takes a lot ofunderstanding.
It takes time, but sometimesyou can get through them.
And if they can just see thatthis is it's not really magic,
you know it's natural and thatyou can feel this with multiple

(59:08):
people this is not quotesomething you've never felt
before you have.
It's just you don't remember itbecause it's such an intense
thing and it fades away and Insome ways reprograms your memory
where you don't even rememberfeeling this with anybody,
because they all feel very.
Limberence feels different withdifferent people.
So when we're talking about abreakup, if there's another

(59:33):
person in the picture, thenthat's another reason you need
to go into no contact, becauseif you try to push and all that
You're gonna make yourself lookso much less and so much.
In many ways you're going toExpose your lack of value
because the other person is isgoing to think None of this is

(59:53):
impacting me.
There must be a big imbalancehere, because this person's
acting like I feel about thisother person, you know, and then
that's not what you want themto be thinking, but that
reinforces it even more to themis that there's an imbalance.
You're begging for me Begging,and you're so distraught, but
I'm okay with it right now, sothe relationship is not as

(01:00:14):
important to me.
But you know this other personthat I'm with now I'm feeling
some of that intensity for them,so it can actually push them
into the other person as well.
But it's challenging and limitsis really interesting that makes
a lot of sense.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
Behavior Lay now.
What do you say to people who?
I look at my own.
You know I can't put myself inother people's shoes.
I'm not gonna do the best I can, but I look at my own
relationships and I can thinkabout.
It'd be great to be anobjective observer of yourself.
You know it's very hard to beobjective.
So we have to take this with agrain of salt what I'm going to

(01:00:48):
say, because I don't know, but Ialways felt like I was the one
that was.
I'm a cancer and very sensitiveand empathetic and value
relationships much, and I don'tthink that's mystical at all.
I think when we're in yourutero, I mean, gravity impacts
our central nervous Developmentoccurs and it makes some things
more reinforcing and some thingsless.

(01:01:08):
So I don't know what's thereason for it.
I do think that's probably somescientific explanation behind
it, because I just see thesebehavioral patterns with people
that are born in the same monthand not all time, but I think it
could lend to some geneticpredisposition.
But I find myself doing thatand I feel like that I end up
Reducing my own value.
It's coming back to your pointthere by being the one that is

(01:01:30):
pushing things, saying let's dothis, let's do that, let's do
the other, and the thought thatcomes in my mind, what shows up
for me is that I'm then beingtaken for granted right, and
this is the my self pity talkthat I have or I've had, and you
know, it's that somethingyou've experienced.
I gotta think, with eight toten thousand people you have,
and I gotta think it's a commonthing that happens and I think

(01:01:52):
those relationships are probablyfar more sound, salvageable.
Then, if it took myself andthis would be a non example, but
I would never do this, but likeI was yelling and nasty and
doing all sorts of things thatwere just very abusive In nature
, I would think this type ofrelationship is more sound, able
, because if somebody reflectslike you know, hey, this, this

(01:02:13):
person was doing lots of thingsfor me, we had good times, you
know, but is that a common thingthat you've experienced through
couples?

Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
so is, is the question that the, the quality
of the relationship, issomething they can look back on
when it's there, the.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
I think that yeah, so yeah, let me get the question
out.
Make it better Is is it acommon phenomenon with one
person does Too much in therelationship, or these feels
like they're doing too much inrelationship, right that they're
the ones that that are drivingit and they end up losing value.
They end up reducing their ownvalue because of it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
Right, and that's a terrific question, Because to me
, this is you're talking aboutone of the things that's most
dangerous to a relationship, andI say this a lot worshiper
versus the worshipped, andBasically the idea is, is which
one are you?
It are you talking about twopeople who are in love with each

(01:03:11):
other and the compliments arejust coming from both sides and
the other person is just asinterested as you and they're.
They're making excuses to seeyou and they're willing to do
the effort and they seem likethat.
They are just super excited tobe with you, can't keep their
hands off of you or does it feelone-sided?
And the danger is that whenit's one-sided, if the two

(01:03:34):
people I mean there aresituations where it can work, if
two people are comfortable withthat and you know we're talking
about someone who can handlethat long term, which is a rare
bird it can work, but it's in avery, it's in a minority of
cases, a very minority of caseswhere that can work, because
what usually happens is itaffects both people negatively.

(01:03:55):
The person who is worshipped andPut on this pedestal and treat
it as though they are are moreattractive, more more desired
and more valuable in therelationship, they start to feel
that way and what happens is weall want to be with someone we
feel like is Valuable andattractive.
That's just human nature.
And they will begin to look atother people that they see is

(01:04:20):
more valuable because Clearlythis person there with is not as
valuable as them, and so theywant to find someone that maybe
they feel like they can dobetter because they are higher
value than this other person.
So it creates that imbalanceand then the other person who's
being treated as though they areless the worshiper it can also
cause them to eventually justsay I want more than this too.

(01:04:42):
And when they push a little bitfor it, the other person's like
well, we have these rules.
We've, we've done this for awhile.
Why do you want to change it?
And they tend to have a littlebit of Celebrity syndrome, which
is where the other person hasworshipped so long and just done
everything they wanted to doand treated them like they were
better.
And that's really difficult tojust give up because it feels

(01:05:04):
like sometimes even I've been inthe same Room, you know couple
counseling a not counseling, butcoaching a couple and just
talking with them about it, andthey will One of them I will
kind of figure out.
Oh so this is a really lopsidedsituation.
Lopsided relationship and when,when one person starts wanting

(01:05:26):
More from the other person.
So let's say, you know, I'm ina relationship and I'm the
worshiper, but I start realizingthat and saying, you know, I'd
like to be treated like I mattera lot and and like I'm the
apple of your eye and that youwould do anything for me.
I'd like to have some of that.
When the other, a lot of timesthey will pull back some because

(01:05:48):
they want it to be a littlemore balanced.
And so you have this otherperson who's then gonna say why
are you being mean to me all ofa sudden?
Because they get used to thespecial treatment and it's like,
well, why don't you do this forme?
And it's like, why would I dothat for you?
For you, I mean they they justbasically Get stamped into the
imbalance and used to it and itcan be really bad.

(01:06:10):
And that's why a lot of times, Iwill talk to people who are in
a breakup and we'll talk aboutthe relationship and I'll start
to realize you were into them alot more than they were into you
.
So sometimes people think thatthey had a great thing and it
really was just kind of okay,you know.
So we have that going on forsure.
But if you are, if you're animbalanced relationship, a lot

(01:06:34):
of times you're doomed in manyways, and that's why some people
will feel a little selfish, youknow, if I say no, no, you need
to make sure that this is morebalanced, and sometimes they'll
feel like you know that they'rebehaving selfishly a little bit,
but you want to try to keep itto where both people feel like
they're in an equal situation,not not where you have a
worshiper and a worshipped, youknow, or just a person and a God

(01:06:58):
or something, or a man and aprincess, or a woman and a king.
I mean, you wanted to feel likethat.
Both people are just as excitedand just as into the other
person, and so that's the goal.
Whether or not that could beachieved in every situation is
obviously the main question.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
But well, in a, in a nutshell, what would you say if
you could, if you were with twocouples right and you're like
you know what.
These are two people that aregreat and, by the way, anybody
listen to this, I'm, I'm in agreat relationship.
My wife is awesome.
Yeah, I'm not.
I'm not talking for anythingthat's immediate right now.
You know I'm looking back intopast relationships and also you
know when I've had people cometo me and ask me because I was a

(01:07:36):
therapist at at one time, soyou know.
So if you had two, two peopleright and you recognize that
there's this is in balance,sounds like you know what would
you say to each one of them?
I'm my guess to one of them yousay you know what.
You need to take them off thepedestal, and you know, and
probably some of the things thatwe talk about and here you know

(01:07:57):
, you know, make sure that youknow you're, you're prioritizing
your happiness and you know,maybe you're, you know, but Not
putting yourself on there allthe time for them.
You know, as you're doing thatand being a little mysterious
sometimes and you know what justmaking about you some more, but
we're not the other person.
What do you say to that personwho now is on the pedestal and

(01:08:19):
they have a really good personin relationship, you know, and
they're like, for just lack ofbetter term, they're taking them
for granted, right, because ofthis, and now they didn't mean
for that to happen.
The other person, right, thisis the impact of the other
person's behavior, so there'snot a judgment of them, but
sometimes, like, maybe it's likeyou know what, what am I?
You know I, this person'sawesome, you know I'm making, do

(01:08:41):
this.
I'm not reciprocating, you know, is that?
Do you ask people toself-reflect or like, how would
you approach that?

Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
Well, we go back to basic math a lot of times.
Because that's a lot of times,I'll say I'm curious how many
times have they complimented youtoday or this week?
And the person usually can sayprobably, and they'll say
something else.
I said well, how about fromyour side?
And so the first Stage, thefirst spot, is going to be where

(01:09:10):
we just taught basic math.
You see how this is out ofbalance, that they are being a
lot better to you than you areto them, and you know, one of
the things is that we tend to If, if we feel that, if we feel
that we are more into the otherperson than they are into us,
sometimes the response is to tryeven harder and Think that you

(01:09:32):
can win them over by doingfavors and things like that,
when over time, you actuallywill end up doing the opposite,
because they tend to expect itand you create.
You create such largeExpectations for yourself that
if you just go back a little bitmore toward normal, they get
upset at you.
It's like we had this agreement.
This is how it was supposed tobe, and so a lot of times, I'll

(01:09:54):
even find situations where youhave a couple and it's clearly a
very one-sided relationship andthis other person just serves
and serves and and they back offa little bit and the other
person gets upset and it's stillout of balance.
I mean, it's still that thatthis person's still getting so
much more of the words ofaffection, words, words of

(01:10:15):
endearment and physicalCompliments and things like that
, and they're getting serviceand nurturing and spoiling the
other person's buying while he'sgood and Even when they cut
back a little bit it's stillvery much imbalanced.
And yet this person's upsetbecause it they feel like the
other person to be mean to them,because they're used to such a
high level of pampering orwhatever you want to call it.

(01:10:36):
And those are difficult becauseyou can get either person
wanting out of it.
And just recently I had a clientwhere it may have been the best
apology letter that I've everseen and I'm not.
Those are very Situational.
Sometimes people think, well,I'm just gonna write this
amazing letter, spill my heartout in 12 pages front and back,

(01:10:58):
and that's a thing.
Sometimes people will writethings that long to give the
other person and they Think thisis gonna be a magic bullet.
But this person had written oneof these and it was one of the
most thorough apologies I'veever seen, where you could tell
this person was really lookinginward and they were looking

(01:11:19):
honestly, they weren't justjustifying their actions because
they did it and I thought itwas a beautiful apology letter
she had written to herex-boyfriend.
Then I read his responsebecause this person showed me
both and he was in thatsituation where he was the
worshiper and had been fine todo it, it seemed like.

(01:11:40):
And then Something just snappedbecause it got to when she was
telling me about it, how hewould just do whatever she would
ask, constantly complimentingher never got it back.
There was a lot of physicalsexual rejection on her side
because, you know, she does kindof start to feel like she's

(01:12:01):
better than him or something andshe describes her how she gets
really critical a lot of times.
That will also happen when youpamper another person, treat
them like they are better thanyou and you get into that
worshiper situation.
A lot of times they willactually become very critical
because they get used to thesereally great things from you and

(01:12:24):
so if you, if you stop doingthem a little bit, first of all
they get upset because that'swhat they're used to, but also
they feel like because there'sthat imbalance, that they have
the right to be critical becauseyou're less attractive, you're
not as important in thisrelationship, and though they
wouldn't think those words, it'skind of a feeling.

(01:12:44):
And so it can just create theseimbalances and cause a lot of
breakups.
And so there was one recentlywhere, like I was saying he just
had enough and and at thispoint she's like I see so
clearly and and in some waysit's his fault too because he
kept doing it, but I mean hejust has no interest and it's
it's difficult and I feel reallybadly for her because she

(01:13:06):
recognizes it.
But he, he basically is sayingI'm gonna go find somebody who
treats me like I matter just asmuch and who pampers me and
who's good To me and complimentsme and doesn't reject me and
treats me like I'm, that theyare just as excited I'm in the
relationship with them as I amexcited that they are with me.
And so it don't think that itonly goes one direction.

(01:13:29):
It definitely does not.
People who who seem mildmannered and happy to serve and
happy to be in the secondary,lesser position in the
relationship, a Lot of timeseither they snap and they say I
can't do this anymore, or theybecome somebody else and they
show a lot of resentment andthey start looking at the other

(01:13:50):
person With loathing eyes.
I mean it can.
It can be an incredible changebehavior.
So it's really important thatyou do your best and it feels
good to be the one in theposition of getting all the
things and getting worshiped andfeeling like You're the more
attractive one in the situation.
But if you really care about therelationship and if you
especially if you have a familywith them, you need to really

(01:14:11):
see the imbalance and work totry to balance things out.
Don't let them be the onegiving all the compliments.
You try to match them and youshould.
Nobody wants to be in arelationship where they feel
like they're, they're less thanthe other person we all want to
feel, wanted and desire topursue, and Some people believe
it or not have they don'tunderstand that right away.

(01:14:31):
It's almost like a confusingconcept and so you know that's.
Those are difficult situations,but a lot of people find
themselves in that situation.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):
Man, you just unpacked that so beautifully.
Man, you are really good atwhat you do and you know you
said math, I'm just gonna callit data.
I like it.
Like everything you talk aboutcan really be grounded into
Behavior analysis.
And I know one of the thingsthat you advocate for and I'm
gonna be I'm not gonna keep youon too much Longer brother will
begin to kind of curve this down, but I, you know you say that

(01:15:02):
and I agree with this that youknow communication is key and
you know you want to havewhether you've been broken up
with or in the relationshipitself, it's key.
Man, you want to have, you know,authentic dialogue with people,
because I think it, you know,builds intimacy and trust and,
you know, is like you gave anexample Did you ever tell your

(01:15:22):
girl that how you felt about it?
No, people fail to communicateand I think it's really
important to tell people howyou're feeling about things.
But it gets scary sometimes.
And where it gets scary, Ithink I was speaking to a good
friend of mine the other day andshe's been married for 30 years
and she talked about this topicof Renegotiating partnerships.

(01:15:46):
I'm like that's interesting.
I'd never heard that before.
I'd actually go Google it andlisten to a video that she put
out there and and I and my myguess, my thought, is that you
move from, you know, you movefrom limerence, right, and then
you go.
It's like a process and then,okay, you have a partnership and
if that partnership is groundedin good values, great, you're

(01:16:07):
gonna survive a long time, butvalue still shift over time.
Right, I think they're.
You know they're not like goals.
You achieve goals, values arepretty stagnant, but they do or
static.
They.
They do shift and as your valueshift, as you get older and you
go through different as sheexplained it seasons of your
life, you might need to get backand renegotiate your
relationship.
There's a number of things thatmight need to be renegotiated.

(01:16:30):
Is that a concept that you'veever come across or spoken about
or thought about?
What are your thoughts aboutthat?

Speaker 1 (01:16:36):
You know it's, it's definitely a thing, and I
remember hearing a lot moreabout it, probably somewhere
around 15 years ago.
I'm hearing about that, that,that concept, and I see it a lot
with when you're talking aboutmodern couples.
Couples, for example, becauseit's so vague in terms of quote,

(01:16:58):
what they're supposed to do,because it used to be well, you
date for a little bit and thenyou get married.
You know, that was kind of howthe world saw it, especially the
United States, and now Noteverybody thinks that way and
Sometimes people even see therelationship itself as if we're
not working toward that.

(01:17:19):
Then then we're just stagnant,like what's, what is this?
What's happening here?
Where's this going?
And so it can be.
It can be really difficult, butthe idea of just kind of
renegotiating it a lot of timescouples do that as they go along
, as as they begin to get intothe real life of the
relationship, because you learna lot about a person once

(01:17:41):
Lemurins is no longer theprimary fuel, because that's
when you get to see the realthem, because anybody In
limerence you can take someonewho's selfish and just a very
self-centered person, put themin limerence and they will
become a lot of times verygenerous, very kind, and they're
on their best behavior.
But when limerence starts tofade there, there's a natural

(01:18:04):
renegotiating of therelationship, because a lot of
times they can't keep it upanymore.
The person have you know, I'vegot to keep working.
We have to have the real worldhere too.
We can't always just be goingon vacations, we can't always
just be only having date nighttogether.
And so now here we are, we'rein, we're in relaxed clothes,

(01:18:24):
we're in shorts and t-shirts,we're sitting on the couch
watching TV together.
Maybe that scene is not asexciting as going out somewhere,
but the the, the focus changesa little bit and that we're.
We're in a life together, andinstead of it just being focused
on Experiences together, we'rehaving to live life and we're
having to have some experiencesthat are not as exciting.

(01:18:46):
And you tend to grow up a lotof times with this person,
whereas limerence is kind of thechildlike wonder of the
relationship.
But children have to becomeadults and so you get to
experience that with a person,and so the renegotiation a lot
of times happens Without talkingabout it, and sometimes that's
fine, but other times it's likewhat happened we used to do this

(01:19:07):
, used to take me out all thetime.
You know you used to buy meflowers and those things
obviously be great if that stillhappened.
I should still happen.
But we tend to Adjust andchange and it's great when you
can can do that together, one ofthe things that I a lot of
times.
People will say, what's thesecret to a great marriage?
And my answer a lot of times iswell, marry a great person.

(01:19:30):
That's step one.
Not everybody's done that, buta lot of people can also become
much better Individuals, andmarriage and just being in a
serious relationship withsomebody can make you a much
better person, the reason beingthat in Limberance it's easy.
It's easy to put the otherperson First, and I don't mean

(01:19:52):
that you put them as though theyare worth more than you, but
that they get consideration inyour decisions, that you don't
just make independent decisionslike yeah, I'm gonna move to
this new city like you are.
If you're in a relationshipwith somebody, then then you two
need to think like a couple andthink together and this person
needs to be considered and everydecision that you make.

(01:20:13):
That's part of maturity.
And it's easy to do.
In limberance it's simplebecause you have such fuel to do
it, but you learn a lot aboutthe person and they have to grow
up a lot.
When it's no longer theexciting thing To include the
other person, that now it's abit of a liability and that you
have to consider this otherperson's life and their feelings

(01:20:35):
and and all that in yourdecisions, and so that's another
element where the relationshipis Renegotiated.
It's growing, it's becomingmore complex, it's adapting
because you're you're definitelynot gonna be the same person
when you're 41 Then you werewhen you were 21.
You're gonna look at lifecompletely differently and two

(01:20:57):
people who can understand itabout each other and Grow with
that element.
And one of the the interestingthings is on a timeline of a
relationship.
A lot of times there's there'sother people born into this,
there's children, and so thequestion becomes can the
relationship survive that?
Because mama has a new baby,but also Because both of you are

(01:21:19):
going to have to center yourlives around these two people,
these two, two life forms thatneed protecting and teaching and
nourishing, and so your focuschanges from each other.
So can you survive that?
That's another Renegotiation ofa relationship that's not
really talked about.
A lot is what's gonna happenwhen we're focusing on this
person who needs constant careand we're not giving this to

(01:21:41):
each other, and so it mightsound like a cliche when people
say communication is soimportant.
It obviously is.
It's also important that youhave, that you are someone who
has empathy for the other personand that you see things that
happen as hopefully Temporaryand this is not gonna be

(01:22:01):
permanent.
We're going to get through thisand things are gonna happen.
So.
So the idea that negotiatingand relationships happens is
certainly a thing.
It's often not talked about andCouples often can survive it.
That's what the relationship isbuilt for.
When you factor in thatlimerence brings about intimacy
and commitment and companionshipand the feeling of family, I

(01:22:22):
mean you're basically buildingit to be able to survive these
things and Hopefully that's whathappens when it doesn't.
People find my videos a lot oftimes.
You know are they are.
They talk to people who've seenTwo or three breakups and think
that they kind of know whatthey're supposed to do, which I

(01:22:43):
don't suggest because especially, by the way, I had this
conversation with someone justrecently.
It was a guy who she broke upwith them and the way he
described it, I mean it waswhere he was not used to
Constantly saying that he lovedher.
He wasn't used to just asituation where he was checking

(01:23:06):
in with her during the day,texting and all that, and he was
.
He was kind of older to begetting into a new relationship
and he was making a lot ofchanges but it wasn't enough for
her and she just kind of hadenough where she felt like she
was introducing Everybody to himas her boyfriend and she was

(01:23:26):
really good about you know, goodmorning and how was your day
and all that.
He just wasn't, he wasn'tmaking the adjustments and it
was early on in the relationshipand she decided she wanted out
of that.
And he's trying to changethings now.
But that's a situation where shedid communicate, because he
told me, you know, she talkedabout these things and how
important they were and theother person didn't respond.

(01:23:49):
And just because the otherperson doesn't, it should not be
treated as a license to justleave the relationship.
But that's often what happens.
And so it would have beenhelpful if Not just that they
communicated about it, but thathe took action and he made
adjustments.
And so when you're dealing withtwo perfect, imperfect people,

(01:24:10):
yeah, you're going to run into alot, and so it takes people who
are just forgiving, who aregracious and who have that base
of commitment which means we'regoing to work through this.
This is a negative.
It doesn't mean that we we stop.
It means we Figure this outtogether and that that's the
priority is is Staying together,working through this, and so

(01:24:31):
when you have that, usually youhave a relationship that can
survive pretty much anything,and it's when you you don't have
that that you have arelationship with that, that you
have a relationship that couldbe Ended based on experiences we
have in life that we just don'tknow how to respond to yet and

(01:24:53):
we maybe respond poorly to.

Speaker 2 (01:24:55):
I mean this has been fascinating.
I mean it could sum it up in anutshell and if the reminds we
have, you know we have, we havegood core values together, we
have good communication and Ithink also we have good empathy,
like we need to be able to takethe perception of the other
person, which a lot of peoplefail to do.
They're only seeing thingsthrough their eyes and I think

(01:25:16):
that's where probably goodcommunication.
And then, of course, you needaction.
Right, it's not just about talk, it's about actually engaging
in the actions that are going tomove you guys.
If you value your partner, Thenit's going to move you towards
those values of having goodrelationship.
Coach Lee, I can't thank youenough, man.
This has just been my favoriteEpisode.
I can't wait to put this outthere.
Um, if people want to reach outfor your expertise, you know

(01:25:38):
what's the best way they canfind you.

Speaker 1 (01:25:41):
They can go to myxbackcoachcom.
So myxbackcoachcom, and onyoutube, if you just type in
coach lee, you'll see me, andthe channel there has got Close
to 300 videos now, I believe,but that's how they can find me
and you're on instagram as well,don't you have instagram?

(01:26:04):
I am on instagram at real coachlee and if you just type in
coach lee again, you should beable to find me there on
instagram and I'm on facebook aswell.
Same kind of thing if you typein coach lee and I also have a
support community at loveDynamicscom and people can start
a dialogue, you know, with meand some of the coaches of my
staff and some of the peoplethere who are going through the

(01:26:24):
same things that they are Well,coach you are.

Speaker 2 (01:26:28):
You are very generous with your time, you're very
generous with the, the sheeramount of content that you've
put out in the world that'shelping a lot of people are
struggling, and and.
Thanks again for coming on thepodcast with me.
I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:26:39):
Oh, I really enjoyed it.
Yeah, thank you for having me.

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