November 4, 2024 • 30 mins
Ever wondered how behavioral science can change lives? Join us as we sit down with the insightful Kendall Ryndak Samuel, a dedicated behavior analyst who transitioned from an aspiring school counselor to a pioneer in the field of behavioral science. Kendall shares her captivating journey, fueled by a high school psychology class that sparked a deep passion for operant and classical conditioning. Throughout our discussion, she reveals her inspiring work with children with autism and intellectual disabilities, and her ambitious dream to expand the application of behavior analysis.
Behavioral science can seem daunting, but Kendall and I tackle the challenge of making it accessible to everyone. We explore the necessity of translating complex concepts into everyday language, taking cues from popular books like James Clear's "Atomic Habits." Our conversation also unpacks how understanding fundamental behavioral principles can enhance emotional intelligence, emphasizing the power of clear, relatable communication. We uncover a gap in resources that simplify these concepts and discuss the importance of bridging that divide to share the benefits of behavioral science with a broader audience.
Check out her book Talk Behavior to Me: The Routledge Dictionary of the Top 150 Behavior Analytic Terms and Translations. This book teaches readers how to not only understand behavior analysis concepts and principles in layman's terms, but it helps translate the highly complex language behavior analysts use to be more palatable for non-behavior analytic audiences. Find Kendall on TikTok and Instagram @the.behavior.influencer. You can also contact her through email: thebehaviorinfluencer@gmail.com. Her book will be available on Amazon,
Pick up a copy of the #1 bestseller: Adaptive Intelligence: The Evolution of Emotional Intelligence Through the Proven Power of Behavior Science
The Behavioral Toolbox equips those charged with supporting behavior change in schools with practical applications of the science of human behavior for making a positive difference in the workplace. In this case, the classroom and school!
Be sure to subscribe to Dr. Paulie's Heart & Science YouTube channel for a variety of content related to behavior science and bringing out t
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:00):
Welcome to the Thoughts and Rants of a Behavior
Scientist show hosted by WallStreet Journal and USA Today
bestselling author, dr Pauly.
Okay, welcome back to theThoughts and Rants of a Behavior
Scientist podcast.
I'm your host, dr Pauly, and Iam here with behavior analyst
Kendall Rindick Samuel.
(00:21):
How are you doing, kendall?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Doing.
Great Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Oh, it's my pleasure.
You know Kendall's doing somecool stuff out there we're going
to talk about.
She's actually recently writtena book and I know it's going to
be out later this month.
Depending on when you hear thispodcast, it's September 30th,
right now, 2024.
But it's called Talk Behaviorto Me, the Routledge Dictionary
of the Top 150 Behavior AnalyticTerms and Translations and I
(00:49):
breezed it.
I'm like, oh, this seems prettycool, man.
I think probably if I waseither studying for my behavior
analytic test or afterwards Ineed to dig back in and find
some stuff out.
Or maybe if I was a consumerand I want to know some stuff,
it seems like it'd be a helpfulguide.
So I want to hear more about it.
Seems like it'd be a helpfulguide.
So I want to hear more aboutthat in a little bit.
But welcome to the show andtell us a little bit about your
(01:11):
background, how you got intobehavior analysis.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
For sure.
So I feel like I got into it,just like everybody else does.
We all fall into it.
In high school, I took apsychology class, and we got to
the part about operant andclassical conditioning and
dissecting all the differentoperants, and I remember the day
I told myself this is great,this is a thing I'm the best at.
(01:36):
There is no job for this,though.
This is like stuff that peopledo in a lab, and I don't think
anybody does this.
Well, fast forward to my junioryear of college.
I thought I was going to be aschool counselor, coach softball
in high school and kind ofleave it at that, and my
(01:58):
professor came to us and saidhey, we're starting a new
master's program.
It's in behavior analysis,analysis and it's all the stuff
that you learn about Pavlov andoperant and classical
conditioning, and my brain aboutexploded, because that was like
oh, there is something that Icould do with what I love in
psychology.
So I immediately changed mywhole journey of what I wanted
(02:25):
to do, went to the office thatday and said, all right, I'm
going to do this new master'sprogram, and I loved it.
I went into it, did really wellin school, and then I practiced
in autism and intellectualdisabilities for almost seven
years, and I loved all the kidsthat I worked with and the
(02:46):
families.
It was great.
I've always had this reallydeep passion, though, for trying
to see, like, where the fieldcan go and how to make it bigger
, so I've been applying it tosports for a really long time.
I have always just thought itwas a really cool science and I
(03:07):
want to get it in front of asmany people as possible.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
So it's the baddest MF in science in the world,
isn't it?
Speaker 1 (03:13):
It really is, oh my gosh, and it's like this
superpower when you, when you'reable to practice it, you're
like whoa, I know, I know how tohelp people learn and motivate
them to do things, things thatpeople like go to their grave
wishing they knew we were theexperts on how to do this and
(03:36):
it's-.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Pause on that for a second because when you were
speaking, it reminded me Iremember the first time that I
would, and same thing, I was ina psychology class and I really
liked the psychology.
It was super cool guy.
I even remember his name, drmusgrove.
Uh, many, many years ago in the90s, I remember they were going
through the different theoriesof learning right and, uh, you
know, and differentpsychological theories, and they
came across behavior analysis.
I remember like, well, thatsounds interesting, the
(03:59):
humanistic approach and this andthat and the other.
I'm like, and they got thebehavior analysis.
The way they framed it it waslike, well, you know,
essentially they framed it aslike carrots and whips, you know
, and it turned me right off toit, right, I'm like, well,
that's some bullshit.
You know the way they explainedit, because they just don't
understand it well enough and,like you said at the beginning,
(04:21):
like most of us, we stumble intoit.
Right, but that is because andI and I see that you are also,
by the way we share some commonvalues coaching and
dissemination, right.
Um, we've done a piss poor jobof disseminating the science,
meaning making it.
Yeah, terrible job, because ifpeople understood it, like you
just said, like when you werelike holy shit, there's a way.
(04:42):
To me, it's the science ofhelping you know, it's the
science of helping you know,it's a science of learning.
It's like we can help people tobetter help themselves and
others through the science ofbehavior, which is my mission in
life.
You know, I see a world that,you know, leverages behavior
analysis to do the world's abetter place because of behavior
analysis.
But not everybody feels thatway.
It's not their fault, right?
That is just an outcome, anoutcome of us, and I think one
(05:04):
of the things that has been.
This is just my personalopinion.
You might feel differently orothers, but I think that in our
desire to make our sciencerelevant in early years, there
were some mistakes made in termsof dissemination.
Now, who could?
2020 hindsight, you know, isthat when I say 2020?
Yeah, I forget how the sayinggoes, anyways, something like
(05:27):
that, right?
So when you start using wordslike manipulation and control,
that's the type of language youneed to use in the laboratory,
certainly, um, but when you saythere's not freedom of choice,
you know, uh, there's like youknow there's.
It is.
It turns people off.
You know, they think about thatand it's not that we understand
(05:49):
what that means behavioranalytically, but people like,
well, screw this man, I make myown decisions, you know, like I
I think for myself and and so Ithink we didn't do a great job.
First pairing people about theall great that should have been
like and check this out.
Did you know that, like becauseof your environment, your
history, like you start to seethings through this lens, you
(06:09):
know, and so your perspectiveand therefore your behavior end
up being shaped by this, andreally it's like it's the
environment that then, iscontrolling.
You know your behavior.
When we say control, it meanslike, remember, you're doing
things to get things from theenvironment and get away from so
they wouldn't know in the frameit back then, but I think we
were searching for and we shouldhave been legitimacy in the
science field of doing that.
It's just that we need Skinnerdidn't have people say, like us,
(06:31):
right, to help connect thattype of language and like what
I'm assuming is in your bookwith what people would realize
in the real world through goodstories et cetera.
What do you think about allthat?
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Oh, a hundred percent .
The other day I was preparingfor a supervision session with
one of my supervisees and I waslooking through like the goals
of behavior analysis and eventhe wording with that like
prediction control, all thesethings.
I was like prediction control,all these, all these things.
(07:10):
I was like, oh God, we, yes,like that that works in a lab,
that works, that language worksamongst behavior analysts.
Second, you use that withsomebody who doesn't practice
behavior analysis.
They're like okay, that soundskind of scary yeah, like peace
out.
I'm probably going to stay clearof you and that's that's how I
(07:32):
feel like it is and it has been.
When you kind of tell somebodyI'm a behavior analyst, either
they're intrigued and like tellme more, or they're like all
right, yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
I've worked with you before.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
So that comes from the language that we use.
So we need to just brand itdifferently of what we do and
see how that goes.
And although I haven't doneresearch on all the stuff that I
wrote about in my book, I havehad many, many positive
(08:09):
interactions with people usingthe language that's in my book
and other behavior professionals.
How to speak basically toanyone who is not in our field
about what we do to ultimatelyhelp the science grow, because
(08:31):
we've never had a resource likethat before.
Nothing has ever been developed.
You know, lindley a while agocame up with about 50 terms or
something like that that he hadtranslated a little bit in one
of his papers that he wrote andit's great, but like nothing
(08:54):
really came from that.
We've always described what wedo in more jargon and it's like
oh no.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Well, I mean, I think and we'll talk about your book
and it's important to talk aboutnow so the book does translate
right?
Yes, the book translates OK.
This is an important pointbecause you know Stephen Hayes
right from Contextual BehaviorScience, he advocated for these
what he calls mid-level terms,and I believe in this right.
We need to have terms that areaccessible to the general public
(09:24):
.
It's one of the issues withmentalism is that they use all
sorts of crazy terms and peoplelike what the hell does that
mean?
Nobody knows.
It's like hiding on these termsand that's why I love about
radical behaviorism that itbrings it down to parsimony,
right, we keep everythingparsimonious and I don't think,
in fact, I one of the issues Ihave would say, like relational
frame theory, which I know verylittle about, an act which I
love, a lot of the issues I havewould say, like relational
frame theory, which I know verylittle about, an act which I
(09:45):
love a lot of, the actprinciples, right, I don't love
the terms that are being used.
I don't like terms likepsychological flexibility.
I think it starts to confusethings.
I just need people to know thatthey need to initiate behavior,
even under, you know, aversivestimuli or something like that,
or conversion conditions,something that when they don't
feel good when they're speakingto colleagues, which I actually
(10:08):
don't like that language spokento me at all.
I just because I'm alwaysthinking about how it looks in
the real world.
So come back to the pointthough, because I can see that
your book could be very usefulin universities, and here's why
that we need.
We are so focused on gettingpeople to translate a situation
behavior analytically.
We need to teach them to tothem, to translate it to the
(10:34):
common person, so they should beable to take a scenario,
explain it, behavioranalytically, what's going on
and then take a behavioranalytic description of that
scenario and explain it inlayperson terms, right, and the
why.
So when you can do that now,you are in a position where we
can help people to reallyunderstand some things, and this
is really the key to in aposition where we can help
people to really understand somethings.
And this is really the key todisseminating, because when we
help people to behave wellenough and long enough using the
(10:56):
science, help them producevalued outcomes like I want more
of the science.
They don't need to understandthe technical jargon on it, they
just need to understand somebasic principles of behavior,
but our behavior analysts needto be able to translate both
ways.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yes, 100% but a behavior analyst need to be able
to translate both ways.
Yes, 100%.
And a perfect example of thatis James Clear, who is not a
behavior analyst, but he wrotethe book Atomic Habits and
people are obsessed with thatbook.
It is on Apple Books.
It's like a top five or top 10audio book.
(11:29):
It's one of the most downloadedbooks ever on Apple.
I'm sure it's like that on anyof the other book apps that are
out there and I see it.
It's at eye level at mostbookstores too, and even all my
friends and family.
Oh, this is great.
We should learn more about thisstuff.
That's what I do for a livingthat whole science you want to
(11:54):
hear something cool about that.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
I was just listening to, uh, my good friend david
roth and dr david palmer theywere unpacking.
So on the bf skinner foundationthey have, like right now, five
episodes out and they'reunpacking, uh, verbal behavior.
It's called dialogues on verbalbehavior.
It's a great story about howskinner came up with it and
helping people understand it.
So I anybody listen to thisreally should go listen to, give
, give a listen to that.
(12:17):
I'll.
I'll make sure I drop the linkin the show note.
But skinner does initiallydescribe atomic behaviors, right
, he brings the term atomic andhe uses a few times I'm like, oh
shit, this is pretty cool,right.
And he used it a few times andlike, oh shit, this is pretty
cool, right, and they unpackedthat a little bit.
So there's that connectionthere, right back to, you know,
the old, good old Skinner man.
(12:37):
Is that cool?
Speaker 1 (12:38):
I love it.
I didn't know that, but.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
I didn't know it either, until I heard him talk
about it.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Makes sense.
It's it's these little habitsthat build on each other, and
you can make one even bigger andchain all these things together
.
And again, james cleared issuch a good job at describing
all of this, and not once doeshe use a lot of the terms that
we typically use, and if he does, he describes what it is.
(13:04):
That's what we always have todo.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yeah, and I imagine those atomic behaviors, I mean
they would probably fall underwhat we would call pivotal
behaviors, behavioral cusp.
You know like these are soimportant.
I'm sure we could refine iteven more, if you know, if he
was a behavior analyst.
Just think of that, that littlebit of nuanced perspective.
You know, like I'm actuallywriting another book called
Behavioral Intelligence with mybuddy, adam Ventura soon to be
(13:29):
Dr Adam Ventura but it's takingthe concept of emotional
intelligence right and puttingit, filtering it through a
behavioral lens.
It's like and I love the idea ofemotional intelligence, I think
it's a beautiful idea but liketo really be emotionally
intelligent because it's aboutyou know, just, not just about
what you're thinking and doing,but how you engage with people.
Right, you need to understandwhy behavior occurs and why it
(13:49):
doesn't occur.
Right, you need to understandsome fundamental principles
about behavior.
That's the only way you couldreally achieve the highest level
of emotional intelligence.
Because if you're a leader andyou want people to do something,
you're being sensitive,empathetic with them.
You're understanding, you knowblah, blah, blah, but they're
still not performing.
You're getting frustrated andyou know you don't want to sit
there and try to.
Focusing on your emotions isn'tgoing to work.
(14:09):
You need to understand whythey're not doing it so you can
engage in the right behavior inthe right way.
You need to understand whythey're not behaving to some
sort of standard.
So, anyways, I didn't mean todivert on that, it just got me
to think about it.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
No, I loved it.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yeah, it's pretty cool, right?
Well, because again we'rethinking in the same language.
Taken these terms, I went downto it's like.
It's like this cool dictionarythat gives you the terms,
explains very simply what it is.
And then what I like most aboutit is that you've unpacked them
into examples where they cansee what it looks like in real
life, right?
So come back to like what wasthe, what was the purpose of it?
(14:43):
I think we probably kind ofpeople can you know it was
implicit in our discussions, butwhy?
Why did you do it?
What was the big problem thatyou're seeing out there?
Speaker 1 (14:55):
So the biggest issue was I again I saw a lot of there
were two.
So I saw a lot of resourcesthat were created that were
meant to simplify all of theinformation, like basic concepts
and principles of ABA forstudents, or even just to go
back and reference to later onthat we're taking all of our
(15:18):
concepts and principles andexplaining them in a very
confusing way with more jargon,and we were being given these in
school and I was like Iunderstand it, but most of the
people around me don't, like alot of the other students don't,
and I even had a hard time withwith some of these terms.
(15:38):
So I was like, okay, like thisneeds to be watered down even
more.
Um, for, like, especially firstyear students.
And then I saw an even biggerissue and it was like enraging
me when I was telling peoplewhat I was going to school for.
And then, when I became a BCBA,when I told people what I did,
they had no idea what I did andI realized some of the reason
(16:01):
was because we as BCBAs and allthe other behavior professionals
out there, we have a very hardtime describing to people what
it is that we do, even in likethe parent trainings and
meetings with colleagues, othertrainings we were doing.
I had a presentation that I didfor a doctor's office.
(16:22):
A guy who's been practicing forforever and has been referring
people to different ABA clinicsand stuff had like 0.5%
knowledge of what it was that wedid.
He thought we just gaveSkittles to people all the time
and I was like I know I know.
So we need to.
We got to.
(16:43):
We got to do something aboutthis because I see the way we
speak and it's not.
It's not good, it doesn't makesense to anybody else.
So somebody has to do somethingabout this and I ended up going
to ABAI back in 2021.
And I went to the last talk ofthe night, on Saturday night,
(17:05):
which was like one of the lastdays of all the CEUs that were
being offered, and I saw it wasabout dissemination and I was
like what?
This is what I like to do,because I'm a content creator on
TikTok and Instagram for ABA.
This could be good.
And I watched Dr KimberlyMarshall, who speaks out of, or
(17:26):
teaches out of, university ofOregon, and she said the same
thing.
She did research on languagethat we use in ABA with parents
and other stakeholders who arenot behavior analysts, and she
showed that it is better to usebasic language with them to help
(17:46):
them with, to increasetreatment, integrity and all
these different things.
So I walked out of there and Iwas like, oh my God, I need to
write a book about this, I needto make something to help people
, because there isn't anythingout there.
And that was it.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Man, my experience has been so similar to it.
I get down to wondering what isthe root cause, right?
What's the function?
Why are they speaking this way?
And there's a couple of reasonsI wonder.
I'd like to hear what youthought about it.
But one of the reasons, I think,people don't know it well
enough, right, I think if youknow it well enough, you can
speak it simply enough to otherpeople, right, to explain what
it looks like in real terms.
(18:24):
So I think that's a big issue,and I think that in our effort
to frame things through our lens, we start using that language
because of our discomfort withit.
Because when I say us, I'mtalking about people who don't
understand it well enough.
Well, that's a reinforcer, butyou don't have to use that word
to them.
They don't.
First of all, they don't knowthe difference between a
reinforcer and a reward, right,they don't.
They're saying I'm reinforcingand it's not working because
(18:50):
just don't think our highereducation is doing a good enough
job of helping us to generalizethis stuff.
I have a solution for that, bythe way.
I mean, one of the solutions isgoing to be part of what you
just did there, right?
So that's really good givingpeople, you know they would have
to choose, like, what's theright thing to say here, what
shouldn't you say?
You know, to discriminate thatstuff, I think you need
(19:11):
simulations, right.
So there's a way to make, likeanalog simulations, but you can
always use, like, uh,computerized uh, you know you
can do through simple asrs, butyou can use, uh, you know, fun
stuff like virtual reality orgamification or whatever, and
like, you know, what do you wantto say here?
You know, and they pick thejargon one like the parent just
walked out on, you know theydon't want any of your services,
uh, but so they can learnthrough natural consequences of
(19:33):
it.
And you can generalize theseconcepts across settings,
because that's the other thingis that people are only using it
with a learner.
I call it behavioral myopia,where we forget about using the
science outside of working withlearners, people with
disabilities, where the scienceis everywhere.
So they should be able tounderstand the concept of, you
know, behavior, of reinforcement, right, understand what the
(19:55):
procedure looks like, understandhow it generalizes to a
different setting.
What's it look like in business, in the home, in sports, right?
The things that we've done?
Right, because all theprinciples are the same.
It's why I love writing aboutit, man.
I can go back and just changethe nouns, everything is the
same.
You know it's great.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
It's the best is the same.
You know it's.
It's great, it's the best, Iagree, and that that was another
one of the motives behind thebook was because there were also
not that many resources that Iwas finding where people could
apply their knowledge to theseother subspecialties within the
science.
And even I I talked with BCBAsbefore where they were like no,
(20:32):
this is what we do.
We only work with individualswho have disabilities and autism
.
I'm like hold on, we can applythis to anybody.
People are already using this.
They just don't realize it.
They're using it in marketing,they're using it in just general
trainings, they're using it todecrease drive.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
They're talking about atomic habits.
They're talking about somedecrease.
You know they're talking aboutan atomic habits.
They're talking about some ofthe basic principles in
emotional intelligence, butthey're not again, because they
don't understand the nuance ofthe science.
You know they're missing.
There are gaps in here withthose things.
And so I think that, ratherthan turning our nose up to
those concepts, like I've donewith stuff like leadership, I'm
like, hey, it's great, a bunchof leadership theories out there
.
With stuff like leadership, I'mlike, hey, it's a great bunch
of leadership theories out there.
I have a book called PositionalAuthority and Leadership,
(21:13):
servant Leadership,transformational Leadership,
authentic Leadership, et cetera,et cetera.
I'm like these are all great, Ireally like those.
Let's put them on our behavioranalytics lens.
Let's look at what grounds them, because the science is the DNA
of these things, where there'sa different path to a these
obstacles very clearly, whenyou're able to assess, problem
(21:34):
solve, make decisions and takeactions that are effective
through this very practicalbehavior analytic lens.
And so, rather than again turnour nose up to these things, put
them under like grit growthmindset, you know, great, I love
this stuff.
I get what they mean.
What does that meanbehaviorally?
So we can be specific andprecise with how we approach
these things.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Totally, 100% agree yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
We are so similar.
So, in the perfect world right,where would be your greatest
hope for how this book is goingto impact the field and then
beyond?
Speaker 1 (22:22):
beyond.
So, more immediately, I wouldlike to see it being used in
school so any of the educationalinstitutions that have masters
of you know ABA programs,bachelor programs, certificate
programs to teach students howto first understand these
concepts in a more basic way andthen helping them be able to
translate the language fornon-behavior analytic audiences
(22:45):
when they do start working withthem.
And having it being used atfieldwork sites and having
fieldwork supervisors use it toteach their supervisees how to
then speak to stakeholders Lateron down the line.
I would like for this tomotivate people, because there
(23:06):
are so many different examplesin there from every subspecialty
that I could find in behavioranalysis on how to practice the
science.
I would like for this tomotivate BCBAs future BCBAs to
push out of our typical areas ofpractice and start to grow the
(23:27):
field, because we can do so muchgood.
We can help so many peopleexactly how we are.
We're doing wonderful work withall the clients that we have,
but there are so many morepeople that we can touch and
really work on their sociallysignificant behaviors as
(23:48):
individuals and groups and allthat.
So I truly hope that it helpsgrow the field and have it as
big and have a most positiveimpact as possible.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, I was thinking about where it would come in the
core sequence, right.
So I started to have some ideas.
I'm just free flowing with thisstuff and then I just thought,
you know, what would be ideal issomething like this that it
would like there would be.
It would have to be sequenced,right.
So what are the key things?
I, because I could see it beingvaluable to rbts, you know, I
mean so some simple things,because it helps them to learn
(24:21):
what these concepts are, notjust translating.
Oh, this makes sense, right, uh.
But then so it's kind of likepaired with maybe like I don't
know a task list or somethinglike that in terms of term, what
you learn, because I can alsosee there's going to be things
that are more sophisticated thatyou really wouldn't be learning
until you're up, like you know,later, maybe your graduate
level, and maybe there's somesort of assessment at the end of
everything where it says, okay,here's the scenarios, what are
(24:42):
you going to do with this stuff?
Right, so these are thesimulations where you know
they've got to actually practicewhat they learned to make sure
they can translate this stuffback and forth.
Uh, so I could see like greatvalue at all those different
levels.
Um, well, this seems like I'mexcited for this to come out for
the field.
Uh, I'm excited to see how ithas some sort of impact and, uh,
you know what?
What comes of it?
(25:04):
Um, because I think,fundamentally, you know, we need
, we need some of these morepractical things that just
translate this stuff to the realworld for people.
We have to understand it wellenough before we can help other
people well enough.
So it seems like this starts togive people, you know, just
gets their foot in the door withit.
I think, you know it opens thedoor for them to even think this
(25:26):
way, which I think is important.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Right, I agree, I agree.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
When is this coming out?
Speaker 1 (25:32):
October 22nd, so we got a few weeks.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
You know, and I think I'm, and that's okay, the
people can hear this on it.
I think what I'm going to do isI'm going to launch this, you
know, maybe the week before.
I think we had talked aboutthis a while back, yeah, or
maybe a few days before.
That would be cool If somebodywanted to get in touch with you.
First of all, I know you havelike your social media.
Maybe you have emails.
What's the best way for peopleto follow you on social media?
What's the best way if theyhave a question about of you, of
(25:58):
the book when that time comesout, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yeah, so I'm on TikTok and Instagram and I post
very regularly, so people canfind me at thebehaviorinfluencer
on both TikTok and Instagram,and then I'm super responsive on
my email.
My email isthebehaviorinfluencer at
gmailcom.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Cool, and you can send that to me in whatever bio
you want.
I'll make sure that I put it inthe show notes and description
so people can just go right downthere and link right to it.
So, man, it's been great tohave you on here.
Any last words for anybodythat's listening.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
No, I'm just so excited to see where the field
goes I mean, it's growing allthe time.
But I got to say the best pieceof advice I can give anybody if
we have behavior analysts,other behavior professionals
listening or just anybody who'sinterested in psychology if
you're trying to decide whatyou're trying to do in life or
(27:00):
you're trying to make a decisionon what next to do, just do
something you love, because I'venever been happier in my life
than writing this book and doingwhat I'm doing now, and I hope
everybody is able to feel thatin their life than writing this
book and doing what I'm doingnow, and I hope everybody is
able to feel that in their life.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I love that so much.
Kendall, I'm actually have acourse coming up I don't
remember what the name of it isthat Dr Nick Green and I are
doing.
It's about that how to findyour niche using behavior
analysis, and I believe you haveto find your values, find your
passion first and make it yourniche, and then there's can.
You can probably look back andfigure out how you got there.
That's for another conversation, but I so it's so rare to see
(27:37):
people in their why.
It sounds like you're in your,why, I'm in my, why All this
stuff I love doing, I lovetalking to you, I love writing
the books, I love training andthe coaching and all that stuff,
and because it's all in serviceof my mission of, you know,
helping people better helpthemselves and others through
the science of human behavior.
So it sounds like we're on asimilar mission here.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yep, I love it yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
All right, kendall Thanks.
Thanks for coming on, okay, itwas wonderful.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Thank you so much.
Welcome to the Thoughts and Rants of a Behavior
Scientist show hosted by WallStreet Journal and USA Today
bestselling author, dr Pauly.
Okay, welcome back to theThoughts and Rants of a Behavior
Scientist podcast.
I'm your host, dr Pauly, and Iam here with behavior analyst
Kendall Rindick Samuel.
(00:21):
How are you doing, kendall?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Doing.
Great Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Oh, it's my pleasure.
You know Kendall's doing somecool stuff out there we're going
to talk about.
She's actually recently writtena book and I know it's going to
be out later this month.
Depending on when you hear thispodcast, it's September 30th,
right now, 2024.
But it's called Talk Behaviorto Me, the Routledge Dictionary
of the Top 150 Behavior AnalyticTerms and Translations and I
(00:49):
breezed it.
I'm like, oh, this seems prettycool, man.
I think probably if I waseither studying for my behavior
analytic test or afterwards Ineed to dig back in and find
some stuff out.
Or maybe if I was a consumerand I want to know some stuff,
it seems like it'd be a helpfulguide.
So I want to hear more about it.
Seems like it'd be a helpfulguide.
So I want to hear more aboutthat in a little bit.
But welcome to the show andtell us a little bit about your
(01:11):
background, how you got intobehavior analysis.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
For sure.
So I feel like I got into it,just like everybody else does.
We all fall into it.
In high school, I took apsychology class, and we got to
the part about operant andclassical conditioning and
dissecting all the differentoperants, and I remember the day
I told myself this is great,this is a thing I'm the best at.
(01:36):
There is no job for this,though.
This is like stuff that peopledo in a lab, and I don't think
anybody does this.
Well, fast forward to my junioryear of college.
I thought I was going to be aschool counselor, coach softball
in high school and kind ofleave it at that, and my
(01:58):
professor came to us and saidhey, we're starting a new
master's program.
It's in behavior analysis,analysis and it's all the stuff
that you learn about Pavlov andoperant and classical
conditioning, and my brain aboutexploded, because that was like
oh, there is something that Icould do with what I love in
psychology.
So I immediately changed mywhole journey of what I wanted
(02:25):
to do, went to the office thatday and said, all right, I'm
going to do this new master'sprogram, and I loved it.
I went into it, did really wellin school, and then I practiced
in autism and intellectualdisabilities for almost seven
years, and I loved all the kidsthat I worked with and the
(02:46):
families.
It was great.
I've always had this reallydeep passion, though, for trying
to see, like, where the fieldcan go and how to make it bigger
, so I've been applying it tosports for a really long time.
I have always just thought itwas a really cool science and I
(03:07):
want to get it in front of asmany people as possible.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
So it's the baddest MF in science in the world,
isn't it?
Speaker 1 (03:13):
It really is, oh my gosh, and it's like this
superpower when you, when you'reable to practice it, you're
like whoa, I know, I know how tohelp people learn and motivate
them to do things, things thatpeople like go to their grave
wishing they knew we were theexperts on how to do this and
(03:36):
it's-.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Pause on that for a second because when you were
speaking, it reminded me Iremember the first time that I
would, and same thing, I was ina psychology class and I really
liked the psychology.
It was super cool guy.
I even remember his name, drmusgrove.
Uh, many, many years ago in the90s, I remember they were going
through the different theoriesof learning right and, uh, you
know, and differentpsychological theories, and they
came across behavior analysis.
I remember like, well, thatsounds interesting, the
(03:59):
humanistic approach and this andthat and the other.
I'm like, and they got thebehavior analysis.
The way they framed it it waslike, well, you know,
essentially they framed it aslike carrots and whips, you know
, and it turned me right off toit, right, I'm like, well,
that's some bullshit.
You know the way they explainedit, because they just don't
understand it well enough and,like you said at the beginning,
(04:21):
like most of us, we stumble intoit.
Right, but that is because andI and I see that you are also,
by the way we share some commonvalues coaching and
dissemination, right.
Um, we've done a piss poor jobof disseminating the science,
meaning making it.
Yeah, terrible job, because ifpeople understood it, like you
just said, like when you werelike holy shit, there's a way.
(04:42):
To me, it's the science ofhelping you know, it's the
science of helping you know,it's a science of learning.
It's like we can help people tobetter help themselves and
others through the science ofbehavior, which is my mission in
life.
You know, I see a world that,you know, leverages behavior
analysis to do the world's abetter place because of behavior
analysis.
But not everybody feels thatway.
It's not their fault, right?
That is just an outcome, anoutcome of us, and I think one
(05:04):
of the things that has been.
This is just my personalopinion.
You might feel differently orothers, but I think that in our
desire to make our sciencerelevant in early years, there
were some mistakes made in termsof dissemination.
Now, who could?
2020 hindsight, you know, isthat when I say 2020?
Yeah, I forget how the sayinggoes, anyways, something like
(05:27):
that, right?
So when you start using wordslike manipulation and control,
that's the type of language youneed to use in the laboratory,
certainly, um, but when you saythere's not freedom of choice,
you know, uh, there's like youknow there's.
It is.
It turns people off.
You know, they think about thatand it's not that we understand
(05:49):
what that means behavioranalytically, but people like,
well, screw this man, I make myown decisions, you know, like I
I think for myself and and so Ithink we didn't do a great job.
First pairing people about theall great that should have been
like and check this out.
Did you know that, like becauseof your environment, your
history, like you start to seethings through this lens, you
(06:09):
know, and so your perspectiveand therefore your behavior end
up being shaped by this, andreally it's like it's the
environment that then, iscontrolling.
You know your behavior.
When we say control, it meanslike, remember, you're doing
things to get things from theenvironment and get away from so
they wouldn't know in the frameit back then, but I think we
were searching for and we shouldhave been legitimacy in the
science field of doing that.
It's just that we need Skinnerdidn't have people say, like us,
(06:31):
right, to help connect thattype of language and like what
I'm assuming is in your bookwith what people would realize
in the real world through goodstories et cetera.
What do you think about allthat?
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Oh, a hundred percent .
The other day I was preparingfor a supervision session with
one of my supervisees and I waslooking through like the goals
of behavior analysis and eventhe wording with that like
prediction control, all thesethings.
I was like prediction control,all these, all these things.
(07:10):
I was like, oh God, we, yes,like that that works in a lab,
that works, that language worksamongst behavior analysts.
Second, you use that withsomebody who doesn't practice
behavior analysis.
They're like okay, that soundskind of scary yeah, like peace
out.
I'm probably going to stay clearof you and that's that's how I
(07:32):
feel like it is and it has been.
When you kind of tell somebodyI'm a behavior analyst, either
they're intrigued and like tellme more, or they're like all
right, yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
I've worked with you before.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
So that comes from the language that we use.
So we need to just brand itdifferently of what we do and
see how that goes.
And although I haven't doneresearch on all the stuff that I
wrote about in my book, I havehad many, many positive
(08:09):
interactions with people usingthe language that's in my book
and other behavior professionals.
How to speak basically toanyone who is not in our field
about what we do to ultimatelyhelp the science grow, because
(08:31):
we've never had a resource likethat before.
Nothing has ever been developed.
You know, lindley a while agocame up with about 50 terms or
something like that that he hadtranslated a little bit in one
of his papers that he wrote andit's great, but like nothing
(08:54):
really came from that.
We've always described what wedo in more jargon and it's like
oh no.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Well, I mean, I think and we'll talk about your book
and it's important to talk aboutnow so the book does translate
right?
Yes, the book translates OK.
This is an important pointbecause you know Stephen Hayes
right from Contextual BehaviorScience, he advocated for these
what he calls mid-level terms,and I believe in this right.
We need to have terms that areaccessible to the general public
(09:24):
.
It's one of the issues withmentalism is that they use all
sorts of crazy terms and peoplelike what the hell does that
mean?
Nobody knows.
It's like hiding on these termsand that's why I love about
radical behaviorism that itbrings it down to parsimony,
right, we keep everythingparsimonious and I don't think,
in fact, I one of the issues Ihave would say, like relational
frame theory, which I know verylittle about, an act which I
love, a lot of the issues I havewould say, like relational
frame theory, which I know verylittle about, an act which I
(09:45):
love a lot of, the actprinciples, right, I don't love
the terms that are being used.
I don't like terms likepsychological flexibility.
I think it starts to confusethings.
I just need people to know thatthey need to initiate behavior,
even under, you know, aversivestimuli or something like that,
or conversion conditions,something that when they don't
feel good when they're speakingto colleagues, which I actually
(10:08):
don't like that language spokento me at all.
I just because I'm alwaysthinking about how it looks in
the real world.
So come back to the pointthough, because I can see that
your book could be very usefulin universities, and here's why
that we need.
We are so focused on gettingpeople to translate a situation
behavior analytically.
We need to teach them to tothem, to translate it to the
(10:34):
common person, so they should beable to take a scenario,
explain it, behavioranalytically, what's going on
and then take a behavioranalytic description of that
scenario and explain it inlayperson terms, right, and the
why.
So when you can do that now,you are in a position where we
can help people to reallyunderstand some things, and this
is really the key to in aposition where we can help
people to really understand somethings.
And this is really the key todisseminating, because when we
help people to behave wellenough and long enough using the
(10:56):
science, help them producevalued outcomes like I want more
of the science.
They don't need to understandthe technical jargon on it, they
just need to understand somebasic principles of behavior,
but our behavior analysts needto be able to translate both
ways.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yes, 100% but a behavior analyst need to be able
to translate both ways.
Yes, 100%.
And a perfect example of thatis James Clear, who is not a
behavior analyst, but he wrotethe book Atomic Habits and
people are obsessed with thatbook.
It is on Apple Books.
It's like a top five or top 10audio book.
(11:29):
It's one of the most downloadedbooks ever on Apple.
I'm sure it's like that on anyof the other book apps that are
out there and I see it.
It's at eye level at mostbookstores too, and even all my
friends and family.
Oh, this is great.
We should learn more about thisstuff.
That's what I do for a livingthat whole science you want to
(11:54):
hear something cool about that.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
I was just listening to, uh, my good friend david
roth and dr david palmer theywere unpacking.
So on the bf skinner foundationthey have, like right now, five
episodes out and they'reunpacking, uh, verbal behavior.
It's called dialogues on verbalbehavior.
It's a great story about howskinner came up with it and
helping people understand it.
So I anybody listen to thisreally should go listen to, give
, give a listen to that.
(12:17):
I'll.
I'll make sure I drop the linkin the show note.
But skinner does initiallydescribe atomic behaviors, right
, he brings the term atomic andhe uses a few times I'm like, oh
shit, this is pretty cool,right.
And he used it a few times andlike, oh shit, this is pretty
cool, right, and they unpackedthat a little bit.
So there's that connectionthere, right back to, you know,
the old, good old Skinner man.
(12:37):
Is that cool?
Speaker 1 (12:38):
I love it.
I didn't know that, but.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
I didn't know it either, until I heard him talk
about it.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Makes sense.
It's it's these little habitsthat build on each other, and
you can make one even bigger andchain all these things together
.
And again, james cleared issuch a good job at describing
all of this, and not once doeshe use a lot of the terms that
we typically use, and if he does, he describes what it is.
(13:04):
That's what we always have todo.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yeah, and I imagine those atomic behaviors, I mean
they would probably fall underwhat we would call pivotal
behaviors, behavioral cusp.
You know like these are soimportant.
I'm sure we could refine iteven more, if you know, if he
was a behavior analyst.
Just think of that, that littlebit of nuanced perspective.
You know, like I'm actuallywriting another book called
Behavioral Intelligence with mybuddy, adam Ventura soon to be
(13:29):
Dr Adam Ventura but it's takingthe concept of emotional
intelligence right and puttingit, filtering it through a
behavioral lens.
It's like and I love the idea ofemotional intelligence, I think
it's a beautiful idea but liketo really be emotionally
intelligent because it's aboutyou know, just, not just about
what you're thinking and doing,but how you engage with people.
Right, you need to understandwhy behavior occurs and why it
(13:49):
doesn't occur.
Right, you need to understandsome fundamental principles
about behavior.
That's the only way you couldreally achieve the highest level
of emotional intelligence.
Because if you're a leader andyou want people to do something,
you're being sensitive,empathetic with them.
You're understanding, you knowblah, blah, blah, but they're
still not performing.
You're getting frustrated andyou know you don't want to sit
there and try to.
Focusing on your emotions isn'tgoing to work.
(14:09):
You need to understand whythey're not doing it so you can
engage in the right behavior inthe right way.
You need to understand whythey're not behaving to some
sort of standard.
So, anyways, I didn't mean todivert on that, it just got me
to think about it.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
No, I loved it.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yeah, it's pretty cool, right?
Well, because again we'rethinking in the same language.
Taken these terms, I went downto it's like.
It's like this cool dictionarythat gives you the terms,
explains very simply what it is.
And then what I like most aboutit is that you've unpacked them
into examples where they cansee what it looks like in real
life, right?
So come back to like what wasthe, what was the purpose of it?
(14:43):
I think we probably kind ofpeople can you know it was
implicit in our discussions, butwhy?
Why did you do it?
What was the big problem thatyou're seeing out there?
Speaker 1 (14:55):
So the biggest issue was I again I saw a lot of there
were two.
So I saw a lot of resourcesthat were created that were
meant to simplify all of theinformation, like basic concepts
and principles of ABA forstudents, or even just to go
back and reference to later onthat we're taking all of our
(15:18):
concepts and principles andexplaining them in a very
confusing way with more jargon,and we were being given these in
school and I was like Iunderstand it, but most of the
people around me don't, like alot of the other students don't,
and I even had a hard time withwith some of these terms.
(15:38):
So I was like, okay, like thisneeds to be watered down even
more.
Um, for, like, especially firstyear students.
And then I saw an even biggerissue and it was like enraging
me when I was telling peoplewhat I was going to school for.
And then, when I became a BCBA,when I told people what I did,
they had no idea what I did andI realized some of the reason
(16:01):
was because we as BCBAs and allthe other behavior professionals
out there, we have a very hardtime describing to people what
it is that we do, even in likethe parent trainings and
meetings with colleagues, othertrainings we were doing.
I had a presentation that I didfor a doctor's office.
(16:22):
A guy who's been practicing forforever and has been referring
people to different ABA clinicsand stuff had like 0.5%
knowledge of what it was that wedid.
He thought we just gaveSkittles to people all the time
and I was like I know I know.
So we need to.
We got to.
(16:43):
We got to do something aboutthis because I see the way we
speak and it's not.
It's not good, it doesn't makesense to anybody else.
So somebody has to do somethingabout this and I ended up going
to ABAI back in 2021.
And I went to the last talk ofthe night, on Saturday night,
(17:05):
which was like one of the lastdays of all the CEUs that were
being offered, and I saw it wasabout dissemination and I was
like what?
This is what I like to do,because I'm a content creator on
TikTok and Instagram for ABA.
This could be good.
And I watched Dr KimberlyMarshall, who speaks out of, or
(17:26):
teaches out of, university ofOregon, and she said the same
thing.
She did research on languagethat we use in ABA with parents
and other stakeholders who arenot behavior analysts, and she
showed that it is better to usebasic language with them to help
(17:46):
them with, to increasetreatment, integrity and all
these different things.
So I walked out of there and Iwas like, oh my God, I need to
write a book about this, I needto make something to help people
, because there isn't anythingout there.
And that was it.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Man, my experience has been so similar to it.
I get down to wondering what isthe root cause, right?
What's the function?
Why are they speaking this way?
And there's a couple of reasonsI wonder.
I'd like to hear what youthought about it.
But one of the reasons, I think,people don't know it well
enough, right, I think if youknow it well enough, you can
speak it simply enough to otherpeople, right, to explain what
it looks like in real terms.
(18:24):
So I think that's a big issue,and I think that in our effort
to frame things through our lens, we start using that language
because of our discomfort withit.
Because when I say us, I'mtalking about people who don't
understand it well enough.
Well, that's a reinforcer, butyou don't have to use that word
to them.
They don't.
First of all, they don't knowthe difference between a
reinforcer and a reward, right,they don't.
They're saying I'm reinforcingand it's not working because
(18:50):
just don't think our highereducation is doing a good enough
job of helping us to generalizethis stuff.
I have a solution for that, bythe way.
I mean, one of the solutions isgoing to be part of what you
just did there, right?
So that's really good givingpeople, you know they would have
to choose, like, what's theright thing to say here, what
shouldn't you say?
You know, to discriminate thatstuff, I think you need
(19:11):
simulations, right.
So there's a way to make, likeanalog simulations, but you can
always use, like, uh,computerized uh, you know you
can do through simple asrs, butyou can use, uh, you know, fun
stuff like virtual reality orgamification or whatever, and
like, you know, what do you wantto say here?
You know, and they pick thejargon one like the parent just
walked out on, you know theydon't want any of your services,
uh, but so they can learnthrough natural consequences of
(19:33):
it.
And you can generalize theseconcepts across settings,
because that's the other thingis that people are only using it
with a learner.
I call it behavioral myopia,where we forget about using the
science outside of working withlearners, people with
disabilities, where the scienceis everywhere.
So they should be able tounderstand the concept of, you
know, behavior, of reinforcement, right, understand what the
(19:55):
procedure looks like, understandhow it generalizes to a
different setting.
What's it look like in business, in the home, in sports, right?
The things that we've done?
Right, because all theprinciples are the same.
It's why I love writing aboutit, man.
I can go back and just changethe nouns, everything is the
same.
You know it's great.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
It's the best is the same.
You know it's.
It's great, it's the best, Iagree, and that that was another
one of the motives behind thebook was because there were also
not that many resources that Iwas finding where people could
apply their knowledge to theseother subspecialties within the
science.
And even I I talked with BCBAsbefore where they were like no,
(20:32):
this is what we do.
We only work with individualswho have disabilities and autism
.
I'm like hold on, we can applythis to anybody.
People are already using this.
They just don't realize it.
They're using it in marketing,they're using it in just general
trainings, they're using it todecrease drive.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
They're talking about atomic habits.
They're talking about somedecrease.
You know they're talking aboutan atomic habits.
They're talking about some ofthe basic principles in
emotional intelligence, butthey're not again, because they
don't understand the nuance ofthe science.
You know they're missing.
There are gaps in here withthose things.
And so I think that, ratherthan turning our nose up to
those concepts, like I've donewith stuff like leadership, I'm
like, hey, it's great, a bunchof leadership theories out there
.
With stuff like leadership, I'mlike, hey, it's a great bunch
of leadership theories out there.
I have a book called PositionalAuthority and Leadership,
(21:13):
servant Leadership,transformational Leadership,
authentic Leadership, et cetera,et cetera.
I'm like these are all great, Ireally like those.
Let's put them on our behavioranalytics lens.
Let's look at what grounds them, because the science is the DNA
of these things, where there'sa different path to a these
obstacles very clearly, whenyou're able to assess, problem
(21:34):
solve, make decisions and takeactions that are effective
through this very practicalbehavior analytic lens.
And so, rather than again turnour nose up to these things, put
them under like grit growthmindset, you know, great, I love
this stuff.
I get what they mean.
What does that meanbehaviorally?
So we can be specific andprecise with how we approach
these things.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Totally, 100% agree yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
We are so similar.
So, in the perfect world right,where would be your greatest
hope for how this book is goingto impact the field and then
beyond?
Speaker 1 (22:22):
beyond.
So, more immediately, I wouldlike to see it being used in
school so any of the educationalinstitutions that have masters
of you know ABA programs,bachelor programs, certificate
programs to teach students howto first understand these
concepts in a more basic way andthen helping them be able to
translate the language fornon-behavior analytic audiences
(22:45):
when they do start working withthem.
And having it being used atfieldwork sites and having
fieldwork supervisors use it toteach their supervisees how to
then speak to stakeholders Lateron down the line.
I would like for this tomotivate people, because there
(23:06):
are so many different examplesin there from every subspecialty
that I could find in behavioranalysis on how to practice the
science.
I would like for this tomotivate BCBAs future BCBAs to
push out of our typical areas ofpractice and start to grow the
(23:27):
field, because we can do so muchgood.
We can help so many peopleexactly how we are.
We're doing wonderful work withall the clients that we have,
but there are so many morepeople that we can touch and
really work on their sociallysignificant behaviors as
(23:48):
individuals and groups and allthat.
So I truly hope that it helpsgrow the field and have it as
big and have a most positiveimpact as possible.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, I was thinking about where it would come in the
core sequence, right.
So I started to have some ideas.
I'm just free flowing with thisstuff and then I just thought,
you know, what would be ideal issomething like this that it
would like there would be.
It would have to be sequenced,right.
So what are the key things?
I, because I could see it beingvaluable to rbts, you know, I
mean so some simple things,because it helps them to learn
(24:21):
what these concepts are, notjust translating.
Oh, this makes sense, right, uh.
But then so it's kind of likepaired with maybe like I don't
know a task list or somethinglike that in terms of term, what
you learn, because I can alsosee there's going to be things
that are more sophisticated thatyou really wouldn't be learning
until you're up, like you know,later, maybe your graduate
level, and maybe there's somesort of assessment at the end of
everything where it says, okay,here's the scenarios, what are
(24:42):
you going to do with this stuff?
Right, so these are thesimulations where you know
they've got to actually practicewhat they learned to make sure
they can translate this stuffback and forth.
Uh, so I could see like greatvalue at all those different
levels.
Um, well, this seems like I'mexcited for this to come out for
the field.
Uh, I'm excited to see how ithas some sort of impact and, uh,
you know what?
What comes of it?
(25:04):
Um, because I think,fundamentally, you know, we need
, we need some of these morepractical things that just
translate this stuff to the realworld for people.
We have to understand it wellenough before we can help other
people well enough.
So it seems like this starts togive people, you know, just
gets their foot in the door withit.
I think, you know it opens thedoor for them to even think this
(25:26):
way, which I think is important.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Right, I agree, I agree.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
When is this coming out?
Speaker 1 (25:32):
October 22nd, so we got a few weeks.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
You know, and I think I'm, and that's okay, the
people can hear this on it.
I think what I'm going to do isI'm going to launch this, you
know, maybe the week before.
I think we had talked aboutthis a while back, yeah, or
maybe a few days before.
That would be cool If somebodywanted to get in touch with you.
First of all, I know you havelike your social media.
Maybe you have emails.
What's the best way for peopleto follow you on social media?
What's the best way if theyhave a question about of you, of
(25:58):
the book when that time comesout, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yeah, so I'm on TikTok and Instagram and I post
very regularly, so people canfind me at thebehaviorinfluencer
on both TikTok and Instagram,and then I'm super responsive on
my email.
My email isthebehaviorinfluencer at
gmailcom.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Cool, and you can send that to me in whatever bio
you want.
I'll make sure that I put it inthe show notes and description
so people can just go right downthere and link right to it.
So, man, it's been great tohave you on here.
Any last words for anybodythat's listening.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
No, I'm just so excited to see where the field
goes I mean, it's growing allthe time.
But I got to say the best pieceof advice I can give anybody if
we have behavior analysts,other behavior professionals
listening or just anybody who'sinterested in psychology if
you're trying to decide whatyou're trying to do in life or
(27:00):
you're trying to make a decisionon what next to do, just do
something you love, because I'venever been happier in my life
than writing this book and doingwhat I'm doing now, and I hope
everybody is able to feel thatin their life than writing this
book and doing what I'm doingnow, and I hope everybody is
able to feel that in their life.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I love that so much.
Kendall, I'm actually have acourse coming up I don't
remember what the name of it isthat Dr Nick Green and I are
doing.
It's about that how to findyour niche using behavior
analysis, and I believe you haveto find your values, find your
passion first and make it yourniche, and then there's can.
You can probably look back andfigure out how you got there.
That's for another conversation, but I so it's so rare to see
(27:37):
people in their why.
It sounds like you're in your,why, I'm in my, why All this
stuff I love doing, I lovetalking to you, I love writing
the books, I love training andthe coaching and all that stuff,
and because it's all in serviceof my mission of, you know,
helping people better helpthemselves and others through
the science of human behavior.
So it sounds like we're on asimilar mission here.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yep, I love it yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
All right, kendall Thanks.
Thanks for coming on, okay, itwas wonderful.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Thank you so much.
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