November 23, 2023 • 51 mins
On this episode of The Hearth, Deborah Lindsay joins us to decode the often misunderstood roles within a business operation. As an experienced fractional COO, she dissects the unique differences between fractional COOs, interim executives, consultants, and advisors, shedding light on how each contributes significantly to a company's growth and efficiency. Additionally, she unfolds the indispensable role of a fractional COO, especially in small to mid-sized companies embarking on a journey of growth and expansion.
Deborah's passion for sustainability is not just a personal preference; it's an integral part of her professional life. Her quest to make a positive impact led her to acquire an MBA focusing on supporting startups striving to resolve climate change, economic inequity, and social injustice. Listen to her compelling narrative on why smaller businesses, with their inherent nimbleness and the ability to establish core values early on, can significantly impact these pressing global issues.
In the final part of our conversation, Deborah shares riveting insights into creating a sustainable business, warning about the pitfalls of greenwashing, and emphasizing clear, realistic sustainability goals. Her hands-on experience in startups and active participation in the Green Business Network makes her an invaluable guide for businesses looking to embed sustainability as a core value.
Links mentioned:
B Corporation
Contact Deborah here.
If something you heard today brought a smile to your face or a spark to your heart, and you’d like to connect with me, here are a few ways you can do that.
One is my newsletter, it’s where I put most of my time and energy when I’m not working with clients or on this podcast. Sorry social media! It’s a mix of real life stories, tips and tricks and of course updates on what’s happening with the podcast. Whenever something is going on with me or in my business, it always comes out there first.
Another resource that I have for you is my Guide to Doing Work Differently. The guide takes you through four inquiries into how you can build a more sustainable and equitable work environment for yourself and your team. It's a great place to start.
Last, if you’ve got a burning question, a comment, or a situation you’d like my eyes on, you can email me at candice@fortressandflourish.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
The hearth is for you if you're a business leader
with a team.
Here we have conversationsabout how to keep growing.
When you feel you've reachedyour capacity, when what you're
doing is working but you'restarting to see the cracks, when
there's a gap between whereyou're at now and where you want
(00:26):
to be, here we find ways totransition through the struggle
of survival toward creating athriving business that supports
you and your team as wholehumans.
Your host is me, candaceElliott.
I'm a business strategist andmentor who specializes in
(00:49):
working with business owners whoare going through periods of
growth.
Especially when you're addingmore people to your team, the
practices and systems thatworked when your team was
smaller just don't seem to fitanymore, and when you're caught
in stress and reaction, it'stough to reimagine the way that
(01:14):
you created your world of work,both your own personal one and
the one that you created forothers.
I help people align theirvalues and business practices to
build practical, sustainable,thriving work ecosystems and no,
(01:35):
this isn't just some workutopia talk.
To do this, I bring forward mydecade-long professional
background in human resourcesand organizational development,
working with growing businessesacross many sectors, and my
decades-long search for meaningand wholeness, which includes
(01:59):
researching the history of workand how it came to be what it is
today, practicing atrauma-informed approach to
business and integrating work,life and spirituality into a
meaningful whole.
Let's take this journeytogether.
(02:25):
Welcome, brave souls, welcomeback to the hearth.
Today I'm bringing you aconversation that I had with a
colleague named Deborah Lindsay.
Deborah Lindsay is a fractionalCOO, so Chief Operating Officer
, so kind of how I do fractionalhuman resources work.
(02:49):
She does fractional operationswork and she has a lot of
experience, especially in thetech space, which is really
exciting to talk about and learnabout, and so we had a
conversation just aboutoperations and what all that is,
what it's kind of like to be afractional consultant and what
(03:14):
all that entails, and I'mexcited to bring this to you.
I am so excited to be welcomingDeborah Lindsay to the show
today.
Thank you, deborah, so much forbeing here.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Thank you, candice, it's amazing to be here.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I'm really excited for our conversation, so I'm
just going to dive right in andask you.
So there are a lot of reallyunsustainable business practices
and systems out there.
What are some of the things aCEO or an executive director
might be experiencing that wouldindicate that they need a Chief
(03:56):
Operating Officer?
Speaker 2 (03:59):
It's such a great question and I'm thankful that
you've brought it up.
There are several reasons thata company and it could be a
founder.
It doesn't need to be a CEO.
I mean, a founder is often theCEO, but it doesn't need to be.
It could be an executivedirector.
It could be a small businessowner that they might need to
bring on a fractional COO or aCOO.
(04:25):
I do want to mention what afractional is.
Can we stop and I come back toyour question and just answer
what a fractional is, because Ithink that some folks may not
have heard that term and it is apart-time or full-time, but on
contract basis COO or ChiefOperations Officer for hire, and
(04:51):
this can be different than, orit is different than, an interim
COO or an interim anything.
I mean fractional's now arereally common.
Most people have heard of themfor a CFO or a Chief Financial
Officer, but it can be a CMO,marketing Officer, cro as
(05:13):
yourself you are a little bit ofa fractional yourself, candace
and they're typically, as I said, hired part-time by smaller,
mid-sized companies that are notreally ready to bring on
someone full-time to providethis leadership.
And the key is is that they'rehands-on with the company and
(05:33):
they're there to help grow orbecome more efficient, and we'll
talk about that in a minute.
An interim, on the other hand,is a temporary executive who's
brought on to provide leadershipduring a transition period.
This could be a company'srestructuring or a COO has left
(05:55):
and they're in the middle of asearch for a new one, and they
definitely have a specifictimeframe and their idea is that
they're really there just tostabilize the organization and
ensure a smooth transition whilethey're doing this executive
search.
But consultants are brought inand they're there to provide
(06:17):
specific strategic guidance andexpertise on a project or an
area of a company's operations,and they typically work on a
project-by-project basis and maynot have a long-term
relationship with the company.
And then an advisor is there toguide and provide mentorship to
(06:38):
the executive team.
They are not there on theday-to-day operations, but
they're there to provide thathigh-level guidance so that a
company can achieve its goals orlong-term goals.
So I hope that's clear.
I know that sometimes theysound very, very similar, but
(07:00):
fractionals just keep in mindthat they're being hired as that
role, but they're just reallynot there full-time or hired
specifically.
They still are a contractor ina way, but they're a little bit
different.
It's a fine line.
I hope I haven't confused theaudience more than me.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yeah, no, I appreciate those distinctions
between.
So interim, I think, is oftenreally full-time and they're
doing the job for just a shortamount of time.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Right, they're not planning on keeping that person.
I mean that person could begetting hired, but they're there
while there's a transition timehappening.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah, and then in the fractional chief operating
officer position, you're doingthe work of a chief operating
officer, but with a company thatis smaller, that doesn't have
the need for a full-time personin that role yet, and so it
could become that eventually.
But in the beginning it soundslike you know, like there are
(08:04):
more, at least in my experience.
There are these more kind ofstrategic, like high-level
problem-solving, systems-relatedissues that people are trying
to figure out and they needsomeone to be a thought partner
to help with that.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Totally yes, yeah, and and I'll go into the reasons
that they.
You know when is a good time tobring them on, but what you hit
on the head is that it'sgenerally small companies that
are not quite ready to have themean.
Frankly, c O O's are expensive.
It's hard to bring one on whenyou're in the early stages or
(08:42):
you just don't have thatfinancial capacity to bring them
on full time.
And yet you still need somebodywho has experience, executive
experience, and can provide youwith that that management, so
that you can become the companythat you want to become.
So that's what a fractional isall about.
(09:05):
So let's go to like all thereasons why a company might
bring on a fractional C O O andyou you hit it on the head when
your company is experiencinggrowth or expansion.
So there's a business growthmoment happening and they want
to bring somebody on to helpmanage all of the operations
(09:26):
effectively.
So you know business growthnumber one.
Reason number two is oftenoperational complexity.
So you know there's so muchthat's complex in a company and
there's only so much that theexisting team might be able to
do, especially if they'reOpening up new departments or
(09:50):
creating new teams or having newlocations or something, and
they need somebody who can comein and really oversee all that
development from an operationalperspective.
That's a good time and you knowthat could be what you're, you
know, akin to business growth.
But sometimes those areseparate and I, you know, pull
(10:14):
them out like that, there couldbe like a strategic focus.
Maybe the founder of the CEO isspending too much time Day to
day on operational tasks andfinding it difficult to focus on
what they need to focus on,which is strategic initiatives
and visioning and long termplanning, those things, you know
(10:35):
, that's what the CEO issupposed to be focusing on in
their job, and so it's time tobring an operations support
person, generally a CEO, to helpthem when they get to that
place.
And then the another reason isexperience gap.
It could be that the CEO orsomebody you know, the
(11:00):
leadership team that it's, asit's set up, just doesn't have
the skills that they need in Idon't know supply chain
management or logistics or youknow process optimization.
It could be that they, they,the team is just lacking that
experience and they need tobring somebody to that place and
(11:22):
they bring him in as a CEO.
And then there's two more timesthat I've seen it.
There's probably more timesthan what I've.
You know what I'm mentioning toyou as well, but decision making
burden.
So when there's so muchdecision, there's so much
complexity that's going on in acompany and they're not making
(11:45):
the decisions that they need tomake because the team is
overwhelmed, they could bring ina fractional CEO at that point
to sort of help lighten thatdecision making burden.
It's not quite as common thatI've seen that piece
specifically.
It's generally you know all ofthese things as well as that,
but you know that's just anexample.
(12:06):
And then sometimes it's theboard.
You know the board is like orthe investors are telling the
company listen, you need tobring in another layer of
leadership to make sure that thebusiness is being managed well
and from an operationsstandpoint.
So those are the you know kindof the most common reasons why
(12:30):
you would bring on a CEO and afractional CEO.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
So there are so many threads that you just brought up
through that and I think one ofthe things that kind of unites
at all is this idea ofoperations right, and so I'm
curious with it, becauseoperations is, it can be like an
octopus, but what are theproblems that you find yourself
(12:56):
solving commonly in the world ofoperations, like what are the
things that come up the most foryou?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
It's a really good question.
So there is a great book out.
It's called how to be a chiefoperations officer.
It's written by a woman namedJennifer Geary and she
identifies 16 disciplines that aC O O has to have.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
So many.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I know, and I actually add another one in
there.
I read it and I was like wait,she doesn't have customer
success but it, you know, and Idon't know why, I'm sure it was
not an oversight because she'sreally super smart, but it's
finance and legal and H Rcompliance and risk management,
and you know, anyway, the listgoes on.
(13:45):
So the I think that C O O'stend to have a broad knowledge.
They're like, see, they're likeH R professionals, generalists,
right, you need to haveInformation about all of those
things to be able to get you tothe next step.
You know you can't sort ofblank out when it becomes.
(14:07):
You know that topic.
You have to have at least aworking knowledge in these
things and I would say that myspecialty it lies in
sustainability, in H R, infinance even though I'm not a C
F O but I can dance myselfaround of you know financials
(14:28):
really well, risk compliantprocess development, and those
are the things I actually reallylike to do investor management,
board management.
I wouldn't be brought on to acompany that was really large.
That's not been my wheelhouse.
So I generally work with techstartups, non profits and small
(14:52):
businesses, because that's whereI spent my career.
I mean I started my career, youknow, several years ago and in
large, putting on large scalemusical events.
Now, I wasn't a C-O-O at thatpoint, but I was definitely in
operations and so I put on largescale musical events.
(15:15):
And then I went intoco-founding a digital media
company with my partner at thetime and I had a lot of
different experiences there andthen went into tech recently
more recently in the last 10years in operations or HR and in
sustainability as well, and sothose are kind of where I'm most
(15:38):
comfortable.
That's why I stick with those.
I think I have a lot of valueand I've added a value in those
spots.
And then I've added the missiondriven piece because of my
background in sustainabilitySuper important to me.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
I have a similar background.
In starting more on theoperations side, I ran a summer
camp and then was brought on asthe HR manager for a restaurant
group but ultimately ended upoverseeing operations for the
whole thing with the owners, andthere's just so much crossover
(16:17):
between operations and reallyevery single function of the
organization and then yeah.
So thanks for sharing a littlebit about how you got to where
you are today, because it takesa while, I think, to get the
skill set in all these differentareas and to see how they
overlap with one another.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yeah, yeah, and exactly, you don't necessarily
realize that you're inoperations until years later and
you're like, oh my gosh, I'vebeen doing that my whole life,
you know.
So, yeah, and it does takesomebody who can be a
multitasker and who can reallythink deeply about different
processes.
And I enjoy, really enjoy,actually going through process
(17:01):
optimization when I did and Ilearned how to do that when I
was putting on large scalemusical events, because it's
very much the same when you'rethinking, say, about a
customer's success journey andyou're going like, where's the
first touch that a customer haswith the company and what's the
last touch?
It's exactly the same thing,even if it's virtual to when is
(17:23):
a customer entering, going to anevent and they're gonna hear
about it, they're going to signup, they're going to go to the
registration and they're gonnaenter the building and then
they're gonna go to all thethings and then they're gonna
have lunch and then they'regonna leave and they're gonna
have a packet.
It's the same.
(17:43):
If you are building a processwithin a SaaS platform, like a
startup that I was withStylehound, we were doing
exactly the same thing.
How is the customer firsthearing about us?
What is the first experiencewith the app.
Where are they getting theirquality and assurance when
they're using the app?
Cause it was a little bit of aSaaS and pass platform and you
(18:11):
have to draw it out.
You do the whole thing and thentheir last touch is here, and
here's all the points.
They're gonna be talking tosomebody and here's all the
points that something could gowrong, and here's all the points
where we need to make sure thatsomething's being confirmed,
that it's good and it's right,and how long is it taking from
this point to that point?
And what's the letter thatwe're writing to the person when
(18:31):
they receive their thing?
Anyway, that's all operationsand I love it.
I actually really love it.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
So you brought up a little bit just a little bit ago
about working with missiondriven businesses and I'm
wondering what is unique aboutgiving operational support that
supports a business's purposeand values, versus maybe
(19:04):
operational support that'stotally profit focused.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I've always, always been somebody who was really
thinking about the planet andnature.
When I was a little kid I grewup in Canada I had a lot of time
and nature, unfocused time.
So you learn when you haveunfocused time and nature, you
(19:29):
learn to be curious about it.
And that's one of the thingsthat they've determined is
important in being a steward forthe planet is having curiosity
about it.
And so when I was growing upand becoming a person in the
world and people will tell youthat I was that person that was
(19:51):
like we've got to save the treeover here and we've got to save
the whale over there and we'vegot to like.
I always had some petition thatI was trying to get people to
sign and some passion project.
That's just been who I am.
And when I went to undergrad, Iactually took a long time to
(20:13):
finish my bachelor's because Ihad children in between and I
went to a program and I gotundergrad in culture, ecology
and sustainable communities andI really was a community
developer or community organizer, like Obama.
I was happy to say we sharedthat background and I left there
(20:39):
.
I started in nonprofit.
It's still going co-founded.
It was called SustainableMonterey County.
Now it's called Communities forSustainable Monterey County.
That was my brainchild, alongwith my co-founder, and I just
wanted to save everything.
I wanted to make sure thatpeople had the capacity to
(21:01):
optimize their actions.
So Sustainable Monterey Countyis built on this idea that
people, when they join together,when they join forces together,
they're stronger when theirvoices are heard as a collective
than individually.
So it's really set up as a wayto elevate citizens' voices at
(21:23):
the local election and a localpolitics level.
So, rather than like fivepeople showing up to say let's
do a plastic bag ban, you can goto the hub, the organization
itself, sustainable MontereyCounty, and have 50 people show
(21:44):
up to a city council meeting andhave action taken.
And it's very effective.
It's working really well.
The organization is close tobeing 20 years old, so that's
great that it's still going.
But I realized through a seriesof other things that I did that
(22:08):
for me.
I wanted to get into thecorporate space because I think
that that's where so much ishappening that can be managed
from the get-go or at thehighest levels within a company,
and I said, okay, I'm gonnamove out of being a community
(22:30):
organizer and I'm gonna go backand get my MBA and become like a
corporate person and be able towork with companies to make a
change.
But when I was in grad school,I realized that as we were
getting coached during classwhere do you wanna be, what
(22:54):
companies do you wanna work with?
And I would be sitting thereand I'd be thinking I don't
think the companies that I wannawork with exist yet.
I think that the companies are,they're gonna be launching as I
get out of grad school, thatthere's people who are creating
solutions for today, for abetter world tomorrow, and I use
(23:16):
that.
That was the tagline of myradio show when I had a radio
show, but I still say it becauseit applies.
There are companies that areworking on things right now that
are problems right now that wedon't even know about yet, and
it's those companies that Iwanna work with.
I was never able to say I wannago work for a Patagonia or I
(23:36):
wanna go work for some company,walmart or someplace and I say
Walmart even though I don't.
There's some issues with thecompany, but they actually have
a really strong sustainabilityprogram that just does target
and there's a lot of bigcompanies that do, but I knew
that I wasn't gonna be in thebig company arena.
That just wasn't where I wasgonna be, that it was gonna be a
(23:58):
startup, that it was gonna bethat initial idea that somebody
was having I know what.
And I'll give you an example.
Because there's a guy that Iknow right now who's developing
a product to help save or makequeen bees in the hive safer.
And I'm like, oh my God, thatguy, that guy right there, he's
got a brilliant idea.
He probably doesn't know how toget his company launched.
(24:21):
I wanna help that guy.
Now, on the practical level, heprobably can't afford me.
So it does need to be a companythat's a little bit more
developed than that.
But I'm just giving an examplethat I am driven to find
companies that are solving theseissues of climate change and
(24:43):
economic inequity and socialinequity and dealing with
political unrest and all that,because it's like in my DNA,
like it just is in my body.
I have no other choice.
I have to do this, so that'swhy I work with them.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, I think just going because I have done a lot
of work in local government andI see this intersection between
working on these issues.
Working on these issues at thelocal government level Like
you're talking about showing upat a city council meeting with
50 people on a particular issuewhen there's gonna be a vote,
right, which is so important tohave people tell their stories
(25:27):
and then also, on the other side, to be in that for-profit
sector, or even nonprofit sectoralso, where there is such a a
possibility to affect changewithin the scope of what will
happen with that business.
That's why I love working withsmaller businesses too.
(25:48):
It's because I feel like whenyou come in on that ground level
, you have the ability ofestablishing and naming values
early on and building systemsaround those values so that you
create, when the company isbigger, something that already
is functioning in that way.
So instead of having to do ahuge course correct, slowing the
(26:10):
ship way down and turning, it'sa lot more agile when it's
smaller.
It's interesting to work inthat space.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Right.
I mean in startups who have togo and find investor support.
They want to align, they wanttheir investors to align with
their mission.
They want to have a board thatdoes.
They want to build in theirinitiatives with the board and
codify them in the meeting notesso that in the future those
(26:37):
things aren't going to get lost,that the impulses of the
founder to do right and to dogood and to build a product that
really is going to solve thingswhen push comes to shove it's
not going to get put asidebecause it wasn't built into the
infrastructure of the company.
So it is important to get thereright in the beginning, all the
(26:58):
way around.
And plus, you want to make surethat your board is diverse from
the get-go, because you wantthe diversity of thought and you
want to make sure that yoursystems that you're setting up
in HR are inclusive and fair andpeople are going to get paid
properly, I mean.
And so the COO is the one who'sholding the line for all of
(27:19):
that?
I mean it is important for theCEO, of course, to have that
inclination as well, but I thinkit's the COO who is the one
who's making sure that that workis done, because the CEO should
be focused outward, and I meanthere's a lot of ways that the
CEO and the CEO can worktogether, but often it's the CEO
(27:42):
is outward facing strategyinvestors out there.
Coo is inward facing, dealingwith what's going on in the
company.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
So what are some of the ways that you incorporate
sustainability into your work asa COO with a company?
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yeah, I mean there's a lot of amazing resources out
there.
There's companies like B CorpLab it's a B Corp certification.
I mean they're amazing, it'sone of the best resources.
I don't know why I can't thinkof 100% their name right now,
but it's one of the bestresources for businesses,
(28:22):
businesses of all sizes.
A small business often can'tafford to necessarily go that
route because it can be kind ofexpensive to get that
certification.
But they have so many resourcesthat you can just be like okay,
I'm going to kind of followthis guideline and maybe I won't
become certified, but at leastI will be building the company
(28:44):
right from the get-go.
And then the other thing isthat, gosh, we have so many like
the Green Business Network.
I mean it's a really goodsystem and you can work with
local people and, depending onwhat kind of company you've got
I mean you can have a restaurantor a laundromat or a mechanics
company, and I have greened abookstore, a radio station, a
(29:11):
tech startup, a school sothere's a lot of ways that you
can bring in tools.
You don't have to invent ityourself, my gosh.
You could probably even go tochat GPT and just say I want to
green my business.
What are some of the things Icould do?
And it's going to give you agreat list, and then it's just a
matter of finding the people inthe company who are going to be
(29:32):
the champions of that andmaking sure that there's some
metrics in place so that you cantrack how well you're doing.
You want to be able to say thisis where we're starting and
this is where we're going to goto.
You know, like developing anobjective and a key result of
(29:53):
like we want to be here and howare we going to know that we've
succeeded?
And so that then you cancommunicate that out and you
want to tell people of thesuccesses that you've had.
So those are some of the waysthat I do it.
I do find that because startupsare just trying to keep their
(30:14):
head above water, it's oftenvery hard to stay focused on how
the priority of beingsustainable, but as long as
you're making like littleconsistent drips at it while
you're going, then you know it'sgoing to be easier down the
line.
(30:35):
Again, when I was with CellHound, one of the products the
service that was a platform aswell was that we were helping
people reduce or keep items outof landfills, clothing items and
household items out of thelandfill by helping them create
(30:55):
a listing for eBay, particularlyto help them sell their item
and make more money.
And you know you're going.
Well, how do you measuresomething like that?
How are you going to say youknow, we've had this big impact?
And it's very difficult becauseyou don't know in the end
whether or not that personactually did sell that thing or
(31:18):
what actually did happen to thething, that you were helping
them.
But we came up with some, likeyou know, pretty reasonable
metrics to say that you know wewere helping to divert this
thing and you know, if a pair ofpants, on average, where it
weighs three to pounds, then wecould say, all right, well, on
(31:42):
average, the clothes that we'rekeeping out of or that we're
supporting to keep out of thelandfill is X and you know.
So it's just.
It's how do you frame it?
How do you make sure thatyou're not greenwashing
something, because you don'twant to be making a claim that
you can't support?
(32:02):
That's terrible, and yet youalso don't want to not
communicate that you're doingsomething.
Like there's people who are,there's companies that are doing
really well and being green andthey don't even talk about it
because they don't want to, Idon't know, have their product,
appear to be too complex fortheir audience?
(32:24):
I mean, you know, like I've beento lectures where they've
talked about, well, how are wegoing to talk about
sustainability or being green oreco or regenerative, or, you
know, how are we going to bringthis up?
And they're like we're just notgoing to bring it up, we're
just going to do our thing,we're not going to talk about it
, because if we do, our clientsare going to think that our
(32:47):
product's more expensive or thatwe are, you know, somehow
changing the values that theyhave long held as important.
You know, whatever those are,but you know being able to say
like, here's what we're doing,it's legitimate, and this is how
I can back it up.
Make sure that you talk toexperts and say is this
(33:10):
reasonable?
So that you can get metricsaround what you're doing.
And so those are the ways.
I know I just kind of went allover the place, but that's some
ways that I help bring insustainability into a company.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah, the restaurant group that I worked for had
sustainability as a value, andmy company also does.
The way that it worked kind ofoperationally was it was a lens
through which we looked at allof our decisions.
So, if we were sourcing food,we were sourcing from local
(33:46):
farmers.
If we were sourcing paperproducts, we were trying to find
recycled products, if it waspossible to do that, and
non-plastic products and we werepurchasing them from a local
vendor, from Coast Paper.
And then also, because it was avalue that we talked about, it
(34:09):
would come up in conversations,especially with our staff, where
if things were not being donesustainably, it would come up
and then we would be able toaddress it.
And so it's interesting to seehow naming something like
sustainability as a value of theorganization guides decision
(34:31):
making and then also, if youhave open communication with
your team, they can help you tokind of refine and revise and
come to better systems over time.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Totally so.
Our teams actually will reallyappreciate if a company is going
green or has that value.
They're finding that retentionis much higher, as you would
know, for companies that havethat as a value, it's imperative
it is.
There is some discussion in thescience world that maybe we
(35:09):
have clipped off the upper partof our temperature increase.
They're thinking that maybewe're not going to hit 5% or 5
degrees of increase intemperature because of efforts
that have been done already,which is amazing.
(35:33):
It's not anything to reallywrite home about, but it is
something to at leastacknowledge that we're able to
make change and that we're ableto make an impact.
And so if anybody says, well,whatever I do, it doesn't really
matter, it's just a big messand I can't do anything, it's
(35:53):
like, no, we've actually alreadydone a thing.
We've actually already beenable to maybe keep this from
being the worst scenario on thewhole scale of scenarios.
Maybe we've been able to creepthat down to like, okay, it's
really really, really bad.
There's maybe four reallysrather than five reallys, and so
(36:19):
that's important, and I thinkthat every single person, in
every single way, that they canneed to take action.
And so this is just how I do it.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
I think, in thinking about climate change.
A couple of weeks ago, for somereason, I was looking at sea
level rise at 2,100 and what'sgoing to be left of our town and
these different scenarios, andit was right before I went to
bed and that was not like Ididn't sleep at all that night
(36:54):
and it can feel hopeless, butrecognizing that work has been
done, there's some achievementthat's going in the right
direction and that also we eachneed to do what we can toward
that end of sustainability.
And also, if we're in theposition of running an
(37:16):
organization, of havingconnections within our local
government or state government,nationally, internationally,
with large corporations, then itis, I feel, a responsibility to
work on sustainability in thosearenas, because that's really
where the systems have beencreated that have made the
(37:42):
issues that we're dealing withtoday.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Totally, and the business world is actually on
board with this.
It's funny.
There's a term that's beingused right now and to me it's
like how do you say climatechange without saying climate
change and what you say is VUCA?
I don't know whether you'veever heard of this term, but
VUCA V-U-C-A is a term that'sbeing used in business now and
(38:08):
it stands for volatility,uncertainty, complexity and
ambiguity, and I think thatevery business needs to and
every person needs to understandthat the concept of VUCA
because it is really forcingcompanies and people to think
about how can you be agile?
(38:30):
And there's not a business thatis not thinking about VUCA
right now.
They need to.
Companies need to be quick toadapt, they need to changing
circumstances and they need tobe able to pivot strategies and
seize opportunities based onwhat may arise.
That has a focus on flexibilityand speed and resilience.
(38:52):
They need to be very innovative.
To thrive in a VUCA world,Collaboration, like we've been
talking about, is really neededand working together with other
stakeholders right, Becausebusinesses can leverage their
collective strengths andresources, Because businesses
(39:12):
that help build resiliency andadaptability together are
actually going to do better inthis whole thing.
Community and inclusion is hugeand essential in a thriving
VUCA world, because howdifferent people think about
things and their background andtheir perspectives, that's
what's going to fosterinnovation and better understand
(39:34):
the needs of customers and justthe community as a whole.
And so when we think about howare we going to embrace the
uncertainty of climate changeand be adaptable and definitely
if we want to achieve long-termsuccess then we have to start
understanding that nothing isgoing to be back to where it was
(39:57):
.
We are already experiencingclimate change.
I mean, just look at New Yorklast week.
Those are climate change issues.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Just throwing in here at the time of recording this
last week, new York was coveredin smoke.
We're recording in June, sothis June of 2023.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yep, and I mean worst atmosphere in New York ever, I
think, and recorded knowledge,and so you know like it's
opportunities are there righthere.
I am on the cusp of anopportunity as a fractional
who's focused on mission-drivenbusinesses Bam, opportunity
(40:43):
right there.
And anybody who's not thinkingabout these issues, then they're
going to be, I think, left inthe dust.
So you know that's kind of howwe're going to operate with all
of things that are going onclimate change-wise.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Yeah, I mean I was going to ask you about financial
instability, but I think FUKAjust kind of covers all of it,
because financial instability isa part of that and it's
reminding me of, like, thebeginning of COVID, and we just
all were thrown into this wildtime and nobody knew what was
going to happen or what therules were.
And I feel like theorganizations that I worked with
(41:22):
that navigated well were onesthat they made short-term plans,
they dealt with what washappening at the moment, left
kind of the future flexible,tried to have lots of different
options of different ways to go,and really tried to care for
(41:49):
themselves and their teams in away, so that they were helping
to manage the stress that wasgoing on, because these intense
moments will just keep happening, right, and so we got to.
If we're all going to keepgoing, we've got to find a way
to get through them together.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah, you've hit it on the head.
So, in terms of like, what acompany can do if they're like
struggling financially, I meanthere's always the clear like
got to cut back on your expensesand try to make more money,
(42:32):
like those are the classic like,what do you do?
It's the same as if you'retrying to diet you got to
exercise more, eat less,whatever.
But the point is is that thereare so many different challenges
that are going to be coming ourway, and so financial stability
(42:55):
is going to be predicated onhave you got a good store of
supplies in your business?
I mean, I think that thephilosophy of having no supplies
in your stock and just sort ofmeeting need, as it happens,
(43:18):
that whole philosophy that mostcompanies have been operating
under, I think that that's goingto go away.
You need to be able to keepsupplies on hand.
Of course, that depends on yourfinancial abilities, because it
locks up cash when you're there.
So it's just going to be liketactics like that that are going
(43:41):
to help during differentfinancial times, and we can go
into that further.
People can reach out to me ifthey want to talk about that
more Depending on their ownneeds.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
And getting rid of buildings that you're not using
any longer, consolidatingoperations.
It just depends on what you'redoing, what you're trying to
achieve.
It's hard to give an overall.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Yeah, it kind of depends on what's going on and
what the industry is.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
But Reassessing your supply chains, making different
relationships with people, and,of course, that all has to do
with sustainability too.
Sometimes people equate goingsustainable is more expensive
and it's often the other wayaround.
Because you learn how tomaximize your ROI, you just like
(44:38):
you're off to.
You just want to make sure thatsupply chains are shorter, that
you're making the directconnections, that anywhere that
there's a lag, you're takingthat out.
Maybe things might cost alittle bit more upfront, but
over the long term they're goingto pay out.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
So yeah, and it can be like you have a lane that
you're in and you shrink it sothat you're in a smaller part of
the lane, or it could be thatyou decide to pivot and go down
another road because of thedifferent situations that are
going on.
So that's why working withDeborah is great, if something
(45:19):
like that's going on.
So what's going on for you andyour business right now?
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Well, I mean, like I said, I've been in the business
for a long time, but I haven'thad my own business for a long
time.
This is a new.
Becoming a fractional andputting my little sign on my
door is pretty new and so, yeah,going.
So I'm learning a lot aboutmarketing and learning a lot
(45:46):
about sales Operations.
People are not always the bestsalespeople.
I think I've come to know thatbecause they we're like to be
like telling everybody what todo and like okay, that's, take
that line out, because we know,you know we take that line out,
it's like.
(46:06):
But we tend to be sort of Well,we're not tend to be.
We are kind of like what'severybody up to?
What are we all doing, versusjust a single Like I'm in a
sales process with you and we'refiguring it out, and that kind
of thing.
So I'm just upskilling myself.
(46:29):
I've been learning a lot aboutAI and how to use that within a
company, listening to how peopleand I belong to a lot of
different global operationsnetworks and so attending quite
a few lectures on how ouroperations, people using AI, how
(46:49):
trying to learn it.
How am I doing it?
I've written a book with a chatGPT 14 chapter book with chat,
gpt and illustrations yeah, inan afternoon on sustainability.
It's never gonna be publishedbut it's just my own fun, like
how am I, what am I doing withthis, what is it capable of?
(47:09):
And so, yeah, so there's a lotof learning.
I actually also do executivementoring and so, working with
people and even small companieswho can't bring me on full time
but they wanna have somebody intheir back pocket, they can hire
(47:30):
me for a short series of timesthat I'll just come in and sort
of drop in and say, well, youknow, you could do this and you
could do that and you could dothis, or actually like serious
career mentoring and, believe itor not, I actually also marry
people, so I'm an efficient andI help people through that and
(47:50):
not through women, and sosummertime is a big moment for
weddings and yeah, so I'm a busyperson and it's fun that's one
way.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
What's the best way for people to get into contact
with you?
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Well, it's always best to go to my website, which
is demralindsycom, and you candownload, actually, a booklet on
the five operational tips forsaving you money.
It's in there and we bring uplike how do you do a process map
and other ways to save money,but there's also in there a link
(48:28):
to booking a 15 minute callwith me, a chit chat with me,
and so I think that that's kindof the best way to reach out to
me, and LinkedIn, of course, isalways a really good way.
I love connecting with peopleon LinkedIn.
So, if you are listening tothis, just go and find me.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Yeah, we'll add all of those links in the notes and
thank you so much for joining metoday, Deborah.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
Oh, Candice, it's been amazing.
Thank you so much for having me, and I hope that people who are
out there really understandthat I don't want people to be
afraid of climate change andsort of all the uncertainty, the
VUCA world we were talkingabout.
I think that when we'reknowledgeable and when we're
working together, we canactually solve a lot of these
things.
So just, it's okay, I didn't.
(49:17):
I realized that sometimes thatcan get kind of heavy and I just
want people to feel likethere's stuff to do.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
There's stuff to do, there's still hope.
Yes, thank you.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Hit subscribe to know when the next episodes come out
.
And, if you're feeling generous, please leave a review.
Reviews help other like-mindedfolks find their way to this
resource.
If something you heard todaybrought a smile to your face or
a spark to your heart and you'dlike to connect with me, there
(49:53):
are a few ways to do that.
One is my newsletter, where Iput most of my time and energy
when I'm not working withclients or with my family or
working on this podcast Sorry,social media.
The newsletter is a mix of reallife stories, tips and tricks
(50:14):
and, of course, updates onwhat's happening with the
podcast.
Whenever something's going onwith me or in my business, it
always comes out there first.
Another resource that I have foryou is my guide to doing work
differently.
This guide takes you throughfour inquiries into how you can
(50:35):
build a more sustainable andequitable work environment for
yourself and your team.
It's a great place if you'relooking for somewhere to get
started.
Last, if you've got a burningquestion, a comment or a
situation you'd like my eyes on,you can email me.
All those links are in the shownotes.
(50:56):
Take care, brave soul.
Catch you next time.
The hearth is for you if you're a business leader
with a team.
Here we have conversationsabout how to keep growing.
When you feel you've reachedyour capacity, when what you're
doing is working but you'restarting to see the cracks, when
there's a gap between whereyou're at now and where you want
(00:26):
to be, here we find ways totransition through the struggle
of survival toward creating athriving business that supports
you and your team as wholehumans.
Your host is me, candaceElliott.
I'm a business strategist andmentor who specializes in
(00:49):
working with business owners whoare going through periods of
growth.
Especially when you're addingmore people to your team, the
practices and systems thatworked when your team was
smaller just don't seem to fitanymore, and when you're caught
in stress and reaction, it'stough to reimagine the way that
(01:14):
you created your world of work,both your own personal one and
the one that you created forothers.
I help people align theirvalues and business practices to
build practical, sustainable,thriving work ecosystems and no,
(01:35):
this isn't just some workutopia talk.
To do this, I bring forward mydecade-long professional
background in human resourcesand organizational development,
working with growing businessesacross many sectors, and my
decades-long search for meaningand wholeness, which includes
(01:59):
researching the history of workand how it came to be what it is
today, practicing atrauma-informed approach to
business and integrating work,life and spirituality into a
meaningful whole.
Let's take this journeytogether.
(02:25):
Welcome, brave souls, welcomeback to the hearth.
Today I'm bringing you aconversation that I had with a
colleague named Deborah Lindsay.
Deborah Lindsay is a fractionalCOO, so Chief Operating Officer
, so kind of how I do fractionalhuman resources work.
(02:49):
She does fractional operationswork and she has a lot of
experience, especially in thetech space, which is really
exciting to talk about and learnabout, and so we had a
conversation just aboutoperations and what all that is,
what it's kind of like to be afractional consultant and what
(03:14):
all that entails, and I'mexcited to bring this to you.
I am so excited to be welcomingDeborah Lindsay to the show
today.
Thank you, deborah, so much forbeing here.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Thank you, candice, it's amazing to be here.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I'm really excited for our conversation, so I'm
just going to dive right in andask you.
So there are a lot of reallyunsustainable business practices
and systems out there.
What are some of the things aCEO or an executive director
might be experiencing that wouldindicate that they need a Chief
(03:56):
Operating Officer?
Speaker 2 (03:59):
It's such a great question and I'm thankful that
you've brought it up.
There are several reasons thata company and it could be a
founder.
It doesn't need to be a CEO.
I mean, a founder is often theCEO, but it doesn't need to be.
It could be an executivedirector.
It could be a small businessowner that they might need to
bring on a fractional COO or aCOO.
(04:25):
I do want to mention what afractional is.
Can we stop and I come back toyour question and just answer
what a fractional is, because Ithink that some folks may not
have heard that term and it is apart-time or full-time, but on
contract basis COO or ChiefOperations Officer for hire, and
(04:51):
this can be different than, orit is different than, an interim
COO or an interim anything.
I mean fractional's now arereally common.
Most people have heard of themfor a CFO or a Chief Financial
Officer, but it can be a CMO,marketing Officer, cro as
(05:13):
yourself you are a little bit ofa fractional yourself, candace
and they're typically, as I said, hired part-time by smaller,
mid-sized companies that are notreally ready to bring on
someone full-time to providethis leadership.
And the key is is that they'rehands-on with the company and
(05:33):
they're there to help grow orbecome more efficient, and we'll
talk about that in a minute.
An interim, on the other hand,is a temporary executive who's
brought on to provide leadershipduring a transition period.
This could be a company'srestructuring or a COO has left
(05:55):
and they're in the middle of asearch for a new one, and they
definitely have a specifictimeframe and their idea is that
they're really there just tostabilize the organization and
ensure a smooth transition whilethey're doing this executive
search.
But consultants are brought inand they're there to provide
(06:17):
specific strategic guidance andexpertise on a project or an
area of a company's operations,and they typically work on a
project-by-project basis and maynot have a long-term
relationship with the company.
And then an advisor is there toguide and provide mentorship to
(06:38):
the executive team.
They are not there on theday-to-day operations, but
they're there to provide thathigh-level guidance so that a
company can achieve its goals orlong-term goals.
So I hope that's clear.
I know that sometimes theysound very, very similar, but
(07:00):
fractionals just keep in mindthat they're being hired as that
role, but they're just reallynot there full-time or hired
specifically.
They still are a contractor ina way, but they're a little bit
different.
It's a fine line.
I hope I haven't confused theaudience more than me.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yeah, no, I appreciate those distinctions
between.
So interim, I think, is oftenreally full-time and they're
doing the job for just a shortamount of time.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Right, they're not planning on keeping that person.
I mean that person could begetting hired, but they're there
while there's a transition timehappening.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah, and then in the fractional chief operating
officer position, you're doingthe work of a chief operating
officer, but with a company thatis smaller, that doesn't have
the need for a full-time personin that role yet, and so it
could become that eventually.
But in the beginning it soundslike you know, like there are
(08:04):
more, at least in my experience.
There are these more kind ofstrategic, like high-level
problem-solving, systems-relatedissues that people are trying
to figure out and they needsomeone to be a thought partner
to help with that.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Totally yes, yeah, and and I'll go into the reasons
that they.
You know when is a good time tobring them on, but what you hit
on the head is that it'sgenerally small companies that
are not quite ready to have themean.
Frankly, c O O's are expensive.
It's hard to bring one on whenyou're in the early stages or
(08:42):
you just don't have thatfinancial capacity to bring them
on full time.
And yet you still need somebodywho has experience, executive
experience, and can provide youwith that that management, so
that you can become the companythat you want to become.
So that's what a fractional isall about.
(09:05):
So let's go to like all thereasons why a company might
bring on a fractional C O O andyou you hit it on the head when
your company is experiencinggrowth or expansion.
So there's a business growthmoment happening and they want
to bring somebody on to helpmanage all of the operations
(09:26):
effectively.
So you know business growthnumber one.
Reason number two is oftenoperational complexity.
So you know there's so muchthat's complex in a company and
there's only so much that theexisting team might be able to
do, especially if they'reOpening up new departments or
(09:50):
creating new teams or having newlocations or something, and
they need somebody who can comein and really oversee all that
development from an operationalperspective.
That's a good time and you knowthat could be what you're, you
know, akin to business growth.
But sometimes those areseparate and I, you know, pull
(10:14):
them out like that, there couldbe like a strategic focus.
Maybe the founder of the CEO isspending too much time Day to
day on operational tasks andfinding it difficult to focus on
what they need to focus on,which is strategic initiatives
and visioning and long termplanning, those things, you know
(10:35):
, that's what the CEO issupposed to be focusing on in
their job, and so it's time tobring an operations support
person, generally a CEO, to helpthem when they get to that
place.
And then the another reason isexperience gap.
It could be that the CEO orsomebody you know, the
(11:00):
leadership team that it's, asit's set up, just doesn't have
the skills that they need in Idon't know supply chain
management or logistics or youknow process optimization.
It could be that they, they,the team is just lacking that
experience and they need tobring somebody to that place and
(11:22):
they bring him in as a CEO.
And then there's two more timesthat I've seen it.
There's probably more timesthan what I've.
You know what I'm mentioning toyou as well, but decision making
burden.
So when there's so muchdecision, there's so much
complexity that's going on in acompany and they're not making
(11:45):
the decisions that they need tomake because the team is
overwhelmed, they could bring ina fractional CEO at that point
to sort of help lighten thatdecision making burden.
It's not quite as common thatI've seen that piece
specifically.
It's generally you know all ofthese things as well as that,
but you know that's just anexample.
(12:06):
And then sometimes it's theboard.
You know the board is like orthe investors are telling the
company listen, you need tobring in another layer of
leadership to make sure that thebusiness is being managed well
and from an operationsstandpoint.
So those are the you know kindof the most common reasons why
(12:30):
you would bring on a CEO and afractional CEO.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
So there are so many threads that you just brought up
through that and I think one ofthe things that kind of unites
at all is this idea ofoperations right, and so I'm
curious with it, becauseoperations is, it can be like an
octopus, but what are theproblems that you find yourself
(12:56):
solving commonly in the world ofoperations, like what are the
things that come up the most foryou?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
It's a really good question.
So there is a great book out.
It's called how to be a chiefoperations officer.
It's written by a woman namedJennifer Geary and she
identifies 16 disciplines that aC O O has to have.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
So many.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I know, and I actually add another one in
there.
I read it and I was like wait,she doesn't have customer
success but it, you know, and Idon't know why, I'm sure it was
not an oversight because she'sreally super smart, but it's
finance and legal and H Rcompliance and risk management,
and you know, anyway, the listgoes on.
(13:45):
So the I think that C O O'stend to have a broad knowledge.
They're like, see, they're likeH R professionals, generalists,
right, you need to haveInformation about all of those
things to be able to get you tothe next step.
You know you can't sort ofblank out when it becomes.
(14:07):
You know that topic.
You have to have at least aworking knowledge in these
things and I would say that myspecialty it lies in
sustainability, in H R, infinance even though I'm not a C
F O but I can dance myselfaround of you know financials
(14:28):
really well, risk compliantprocess development, and those
are the things I actually reallylike to do investor management,
board management.
I wouldn't be brought on to acompany that was really large.
That's not been my wheelhouse.
So I generally work with techstartups, non profits and small
(14:52):
businesses, because that's whereI spent my career.
I mean I started my career, youknow, several years ago and in
large, putting on large scalemusical events.
Now, I wasn't a C-O-O at thatpoint, but I was definitely in
operations and so I put on largescale musical events.
(15:15):
And then I went intoco-founding a digital media
company with my partner at thetime and I had a lot of
different experiences there andthen went into tech recently
more recently in the last 10years in operations or HR and in
sustainability as well, and sothose are kind of where I'm most
(15:38):
comfortable.
That's why I stick with those.
I think I have a lot of valueand I've added a value in those
spots.
And then I've added the missiondriven piece because of my
background in sustainabilitySuper important to me.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
I have a similar background.
In starting more on theoperations side, I ran a summer
camp and then was brought on asthe HR manager for a restaurant
group but ultimately ended upoverseeing operations for the
whole thing with the owners, andthere's just so much crossover
(16:17):
between operations and reallyevery single function of the
organization and then yeah.
So thanks for sharing a littlebit about how you got to where
you are today, because it takesa while, I think, to get the
skill set in all these differentareas and to see how they
overlap with one another.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yeah, yeah, and exactly, you don't necessarily
realize that you're inoperations until years later and
you're like, oh my gosh, I'vebeen doing that my whole life,
you know.
So, yeah, and it does takesomebody who can be a
multitasker and who can reallythink deeply about different
processes.
And I enjoy, really enjoy,actually going through process
(17:01):
optimization when I did and Ilearned how to do that when I
was putting on large scalemusical events, because it's
very much the same when you'rethinking, say, about a
customer's success journey andyou're going like, where's the
first touch that a customer haswith the company and what's the
last touch?
It's exactly the same thing,even if it's virtual to when is
(17:23):
a customer entering, going to anevent and they're gonna hear
about it, they're going to signup, they're going to go to the
registration and they're gonnaenter the building and then
they're gonna go to all thethings and then they're gonna
have lunch and then they'regonna leave and they're gonna
have a packet.
It's the same.
(17:43):
If you are building a processwithin a SaaS platform, like a
startup that I was withStylehound, we were doing
exactly the same thing.
How is the customer firsthearing about us?
What is the first experiencewith the app.
Where are they getting theirquality and assurance when
they're using the app?
Cause it was a little bit of aSaaS and pass platform and you
(18:11):
have to draw it out.
You do the whole thing and thentheir last touch is here, and
here's all the points.
They're gonna be talking tosomebody and here's all the
points that something could gowrong, and here's all the points
where we need to make sure thatsomething's being confirmed,
that it's good and it's right,and how long is it taking from
this point to that point?
And what's the letter thatwe're writing to the person when
(18:31):
they receive their thing?
Anyway, that's all operationsand I love it.
I actually really love it.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
So you brought up a little bit just a little bit ago
about working with missiondriven businesses and I'm
wondering what is unique aboutgiving operational support that
supports a business's purposeand values, versus maybe
(19:04):
operational support that'stotally profit focused.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I've always, always been somebody who was really
thinking about the planet andnature.
When I was a little kid I grewup in Canada I had a lot of time
and nature, unfocused time.
So you learn when you haveunfocused time and nature, you
(19:29):
learn to be curious about it.
And that's one of the thingsthat they've determined is
important in being a steward forthe planet is having curiosity
about it.
And so when I was growing upand becoming a person in the
world and people will tell youthat I was that person that was
(19:51):
like we've got to save the treeover here and we've got to save
the whale over there and we'vegot to like.
I always had some petition thatI was trying to get people to
sign and some passion project.
That's just been who I am.
And when I went to undergrad, Iactually took a long time to
(20:13):
finish my bachelor's because Ihad children in between and I
went to a program and I gotundergrad in culture, ecology
and sustainable communities andI really was a community
developer or community organizer, like Obama.
I was happy to say we sharedthat background and I left there
(20:39):
.
I started in nonprofit.
It's still going co-founded.
It was called SustainableMonterey County.
Now it's called Communities forSustainable Monterey County.
That was my brainchild, alongwith my co-founder, and I just
wanted to save everything.
I wanted to make sure thatpeople had the capacity to
(21:01):
optimize their actions.
So Sustainable Monterey Countyis built on this idea that
people, when they join together,when they join forces together,
they're stronger when theirvoices are heard as a collective
than individually.
So it's really set up as a wayto elevate citizens' voices at
(21:23):
the local election and a localpolitics level.
So, rather than like fivepeople showing up to say let's
do a plastic bag ban, you can goto the hub, the organization
itself, sustainable MontereyCounty, and have 50 people show
(21:44):
up to a city council meeting andhave action taken.
And it's very effective.
It's working really well.
The organization is close tobeing 20 years old, so that's
great that it's still going.
But I realized through a seriesof other things that I did that
(22:08):
for me.
I wanted to get into thecorporate space because I think
that that's where so much ishappening that can be managed
from the get-go or at thehighest levels within a company,
and I said, okay, I'm gonnamove out of being a community
(22:30):
organizer and I'm gonna go backand get my MBA and become like a
corporate person and be able towork with companies to make a
change.
But when I was in grad school,I realized that as we were
getting coached during classwhere do you wanna be, what
(22:54):
companies do you wanna work with?
And I would be sitting thereand I'd be thinking I don't
think the companies that I wannawork with exist yet.
I think that the companies are,they're gonna be launching as I
get out of grad school, thatthere's people who are creating
solutions for today, for abetter world tomorrow, and I use
(23:16):
that.
That was the tagline of myradio show when I had a radio
show, but I still say it becauseit applies.
There are companies that areworking on things right now that
are problems right now that wedon't even know about yet, and
it's those companies that Iwanna work with.
I was never able to say I wannago work for a Patagonia or I
(23:36):
wanna go work for some company,walmart or someplace and I say
Walmart even though I don't.
There's some issues with thecompany, but they actually have
a really strong sustainabilityprogram that just does target
and there's a lot of bigcompanies that do, but I knew
that I wasn't gonna be in thebig company arena.
That just wasn't where I wasgonna be, that it was gonna be a
(23:58):
startup, that it was gonna bethat initial idea that somebody
was having I know what.
And I'll give you an example.
Because there's a guy that Iknow right now who's developing
a product to help save or makequeen bees in the hive safer.
And I'm like, oh my God, thatguy, that guy right there, he's
got a brilliant idea.
He probably doesn't know how toget his company launched.
(24:21):
I wanna help that guy.
Now, on the practical level, heprobably can't afford me.
So it does need to be a companythat's a little bit more
developed than that.
But I'm just giving an examplethat I am driven to find
companies that are solving theseissues of climate change and
(24:43):
economic inequity and socialinequity and dealing with
political unrest and all that,because it's like in my DNA,
like it just is in my body.
I have no other choice.
I have to do this, so that'swhy I work with them.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, I think just going because I have done a lot
of work in local government andI see this intersection between
working on these issues.
Working on these issues at thelocal government level Like
you're talking about showing upat a city council meeting with
50 people on a particular issuewhen there's gonna be a vote,
right, which is so important tohave people tell their stories
(25:27):
and then also, on the other side, to be in that for-profit
sector, or even nonprofit sectoralso, where there is such a a
possibility to affect changewithin the scope of what will
happen with that business.
That's why I love working withsmaller businesses too.
(25:48):
It's because I feel like whenyou come in on that ground level
, you have the ability ofestablishing and naming values
early on and building systemsaround those values so that you
create, when the company isbigger, something that already
is functioning in that way.
So instead of having to do ahuge course correct, slowing the
(26:10):
ship way down and turning, it'sa lot more agile when it's
smaller.
It's interesting to work inthat space.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Right.
I mean in startups who have togo and find investor support.
They want to align, they wanttheir investors to align with
their mission.
They want to have a board thatdoes.
They want to build in theirinitiatives with the board and
codify them in the meeting notesso that in the future those
(26:37):
things aren't going to get lost,that the impulses of the
founder to do right and to dogood and to build a product that
really is going to solve thingswhen push comes to shove it's
not going to get put asidebecause it wasn't built into the
infrastructure of the company.
So it is important to get thereright in the beginning, all the
(26:58):
way around.
And plus, you want to make surethat your board is diverse from
the get-go, because you wantthe diversity of thought and you
want to make sure that yoursystems that you're setting up
in HR are inclusive and fair andpeople are going to get paid
properly, I mean.
And so the COO is the one who'sholding the line for all of
(27:19):
that?
I mean it is important for theCEO, of course, to have that
inclination as well, but I thinkit's the COO who is the one
who's making sure that that workis done, because the CEO should
be focused outward, and I meanthere's a lot of ways that the
CEO and the CEO can worktogether, but often it's the CEO
(27:42):
is outward facing strategyinvestors out there.
Coo is inward facing, dealingwith what's going on in the
company.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
So what are some of the ways that you incorporate
sustainability into your work asa COO with a company?
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yeah, I mean there's a lot of amazing resources out
there.
There's companies like B CorpLab it's a B Corp certification.
I mean they're amazing, it'sone of the best resources.
I don't know why I can't thinkof 100% their name right now,
but it's one of the bestresources for businesses,
(28:22):
businesses of all sizes.
A small business often can'tafford to necessarily go that
route because it can be kind ofexpensive to get that
certification.
But they have so many resourcesthat you can just be like okay,
I'm going to kind of followthis guideline and maybe I won't
become certified, but at leastI will be building the company
(28:44):
right from the get-go.
And then the other thing isthat, gosh, we have so many like
the Green Business Network.
I mean it's a really goodsystem and you can work with
local people and, depending onwhat kind of company you've got
I mean you can have a restaurantor a laundromat or a mechanics
company, and I have greened abookstore, a radio station, a
(29:11):
tech startup, a school sothere's a lot of ways that you
can bring in tools.
You don't have to invent ityourself, my gosh.
You could probably even go tochat GPT and just say I want to
green my business.
What are some of the things Icould do?
And it's going to give you agreat list, and then it's just a
matter of finding the people inthe company who are going to be
(29:32):
the champions of that andmaking sure that there's some
metrics in place so that you cantrack how well you're doing.
You want to be able to say thisis where we're starting and
this is where we're going to goto.
You know, like developing anobjective and a key result of
(29:53):
like we want to be here and howare we going to know that we've
succeeded?
And so that then you cancommunicate that out and you
want to tell people of thesuccesses that you've had.
So those are some of the waysthat I do it.
I do find that because startupsare just trying to keep their
(30:14):
head above water, it's oftenvery hard to stay focused on how
the priority of beingsustainable, but as long as
you're making like littleconsistent drips at it while
you're going, then you know it'sgoing to be easier down the
line.
(30:35):
Again, when I was with CellHound, one of the products the
service that was a platform aswell was that we were helping
people reduce or keep items outof landfills, clothing items and
household items out of thelandfill by helping them create
(30:55):
a listing for eBay, particularlyto help them sell their item
and make more money.
And you know you're going.
Well, how do you measuresomething like that?
How are you going to say youknow, we've had this big impact?
And it's very difficult becauseyou don't know in the end
whether or not that personactually did sell that thing or
(31:18):
what actually did happen to thething, that you were helping
them.
But we came up with some, likeyou know, pretty reasonable
metrics to say that you know wewere helping to divert this
thing and you know, if a pair ofpants, on average, where it
weighs three to pounds, then wecould say, all right, well, on
(31:42):
average, the clothes that we'rekeeping out of or that we're
supporting to keep out of thelandfill is X and you know.
So it's just.
It's how do you frame it?
How do you make sure thatyou're not greenwashing
something, because you don'twant to be making a claim that
you can't support?
(32:02):
That's terrible, and yet youalso don't want to not
communicate that you're doingsomething.
Like there's people who are,there's companies that are doing
really well and being green andthey don't even talk about it
because they don't want to, Idon't know, have their product,
appear to be too complex fortheir audience?
(32:24):
I mean, you know, like I've beento lectures where they've
talked about, well, how are wegoing to talk about
sustainability or being green oreco or regenerative, or, you
know, how are we going to bringthis up?
And they're like we're just notgoing to bring it up, we're
just going to do our thing,we're not going to talk about it
, because if we do, our clientsare going to think that our
(32:47):
product's more expensive or thatwe are, you know, somehow
changing the values that theyhave long held as important.
You know, whatever those are,but you know being able to say
like, here's what we're doing,it's legitimate, and this is how
I can back it up.
Make sure that you talk toexperts and say is this
(33:10):
reasonable?
So that you can get metricsaround what you're doing.
And so those are the ways.
I know I just kind of went allover the place, but that's some
ways that I help bring insustainability into a company.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah, the restaurant group that I worked for had
sustainability as a value, andmy company also does.
The way that it worked kind ofoperationally was it was a lens
through which we looked at allof our decisions.
So, if we were sourcing food,we were sourcing from local
(33:46):
farmers.
If we were sourcing paperproducts, we were trying to find
recycled products, if it waspossible to do that, and
non-plastic products and we werepurchasing them from a local
vendor, from Coast Paper.
And then also, because it was avalue that we talked about, it
(34:09):
would come up in conversations,especially with our staff, where
if things were not being donesustainably, it would come up
and then we would be able toaddress it.
And so it's interesting to seehow naming something like
sustainability as a value of theorganization guides decision
(34:31):
making and then also, if youhave open communication with
your team, they can help you tokind of refine and revise and
come to better systems over time.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Totally so.
Our teams actually will reallyappreciate if a company is going
green or has that value.
They're finding that retentionis much higher, as you would
know, for companies that havethat as a value, it's imperative
it is.
There is some discussion in thescience world that maybe we
(35:09):
have clipped off the upper partof our temperature increase.
They're thinking that maybewe're not going to hit 5% or 5
degrees of increase intemperature because of efforts
that have been done already,which is amazing.
(35:33):
It's not anything to reallywrite home about, but it is
something to at leastacknowledge that we're able to
make change and that we're ableto make an impact.
And so if anybody says, well,whatever I do, it doesn't really
matter, it's just a big messand I can't do anything, it's
(35:53):
like, no, we've actually alreadydone a thing.
We've actually already beenable to maybe keep this from
being the worst scenario on thewhole scale of scenarios.
Maybe we've been able to creepthat down to like, okay, it's
really really, really bad.
There's maybe four reallysrather than five reallys, and so
(36:19):
that's important, and I thinkthat every single person, in
every single way, that they canneed to take action.
And so this is just how I do it.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
I think, in thinking about climate change.
A couple of weeks ago, for somereason, I was looking at sea
level rise at 2,100 and what'sgoing to be left of our town and
these different scenarios, andit was right before I went to
bed and that was not like Ididn't sleep at all that night
(36:54):
and it can feel hopeless, butrecognizing that work has been
done, there's some achievementthat's going in the right
direction and that also we eachneed to do what we can toward
that end of sustainability.
And also, if we're in theposition of running an
(37:16):
organization, of havingconnections within our local
government or state government,nationally, internationally,
with large corporations, then itis, I feel, a responsibility to
work on sustainability in thosearenas, because that's really
where the systems have beencreated that have made the
(37:42):
issues that we're dealing withtoday.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Totally, and the business world is actually on
board with this.
It's funny.
There's a term that's beingused right now and to me it's
like how do you say climatechange without saying climate
change and what you say is VUCA?
I don't know whether you'veever heard of this term, but
VUCA V-U-C-A is a term that'sbeing used in business now and
(38:08):
it stands for volatility,uncertainty, complexity and
ambiguity, and I think thatevery business needs to and
every person needs to understandthat the concept of VUCA
because it is really forcingcompanies and people to think
about how can you be agile?
(38:30):
And there's not a business thatis not thinking about VUCA
right now.
They need to.
Companies need to be quick toadapt, they need to changing
circumstances and they need tobe able to pivot strategies and
seize opportunities based onwhat may arise.
That has a focus on flexibilityand speed and resilience.
(38:52):
They need to be very innovative.
To thrive in a VUCA world,Collaboration, like we've been
talking about, is really neededand working together with other
stakeholders right, Becausebusinesses can leverage their
collective strengths andresources, Because businesses
(39:12):
that help build resiliency andadaptability together are
actually going to do better inthis whole thing.
Community and inclusion is hugeand essential in a thriving
VUCA world, because howdifferent people think about
things and their background andtheir perspectives, that's
what's going to fosterinnovation and better understand
(39:34):
the needs of customers and justthe community as a whole.
And so when we think about howare we going to embrace the
uncertainty of climate changeand be adaptable and definitely
if we want to achieve long-termsuccess then we have to start
understanding that nothing isgoing to be back to where it was
(39:57):
.
We are already experiencingclimate change.
I mean, just look at New Yorklast week.
Those are climate change issues.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Just throwing in here at the time of recording this
last week, new York was coveredin smoke.
We're recording in June, sothis June of 2023.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yep, and I mean worst atmosphere in New York ever, I
think, and recorded knowledge,and so you know like it's
opportunities are there righthere.
I am on the cusp of anopportunity as a fractional
who's focused on mission-drivenbusinesses Bam, opportunity
(40:43):
right there.
And anybody who's not thinkingabout these issues, then they're
going to be, I think, left inthe dust.
So you know that's kind of howwe're going to operate with all
of things that are going onclimate change-wise.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Yeah, I mean I was going to ask you about financial
instability, but I think FUKAjust kind of covers all of it,
because financial instability isa part of that and it's
reminding me of, like, thebeginning of COVID, and we just
all were thrown into this wildtime and nobody knew what was
going to happen or what therules were.
And I feel like theorganizations that I worked with
(41:22):
that navigated well were onesthat they made short-term plans,
they dealt with what washappening at the moment, left
kind of the future flexible,tried to have lots of different
options of different ways to go,and really tried to care for
(41:49):
themselves and their teams in away, so that they were helping
to manage the stress that wasgoing on, because these intense
moments will just keep happening, right, and so we got to.
If we're all going to keepgoing, we've got to find a way
to get through them together.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah, you've hit it on the head.
So, in terms of like, what acompany can do if they're like
struggling financially, I meanthere's always the clear like
got to cut back on your expensesand try to make more money,
(42:32):
like those are the classic like,what do you do?
It's the same as if you'retrying to diet you got to
exercise more, eat less,whatever.
But the point is is that thereare so many different challenges
that are going to be coming ourway, and so financial stability
(42:55):
is going to be predicated onhave you got a good store of
supplies in your business?
I mean, I think that thephilosophy of having no supplies
in your stock and just sort ofmeeting need, as it happens,
(43:18):
that whole philosophy that mostcompanies have been operating
under, I think that that's goingto go away.
You need to be able to keepsupplies on hand.
Of course, that depends on yourfinancial abilities, because it
locks up cash when you're there.
So it's just going to be liketactics like that that are going
(43:41):
to help during differentfinancial times, and we can go
into that further.
People can reach out to me ifthey want to talk about that
more Depending on their ownneeds.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
And getting rid of buildings that you're not using
any longer, consolidatingoperations.
It just depends on what you'redoing, what you're trying to
achieve.
It's hard to give an overall.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Yeah, it kind of depends on what's going on and
what the industry is.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
But Reassessing your supply chains, making different
relationships with people, and,of course, that all has to do
with sustainability too.
Sometimes people equate goingsustainable is more expensive
and it's often the other wayaround.
Because you learn how tomaximize your ROI, you just like
(44:38):
you're off to.
You just want to make sure thatsupply chains are shorter, that
you're making the directconnections, that anywhere that
there's a lag, you're takingthat out.
Maybe things might cost alittle bit more upfront, but
over the long term they're goingto pay out.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
So yeah, and it can be like you have a lane that
you're in and you shrink it sothat you're in a smaller part of
the lane, or it could be thatyou decide to pivot and go down
another road because of thedifferent situations that are
going on.
So that's why working withDeborah is great, if something
(45:19):
like that's going on.
So what's going on for you andyour business right now?
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Well, I mean, like I said, I've been in the business
for a long time, but I haven'thad my own business for a long
time.
This is a new.
Becoming a fractional andputting my little sign on my
door is pretty new and so, yeah,going.
So I'm learning a lot aboutmarketing and learning a lot
(45:46):
about sales Operations.
People are not always the bestsalespeople.
I think I've come to know thatbecause they we're like to be
like telling everybody what todo and like okay, that's, take
that line out, because we know,you know we take that line out,
it's like.
(46:06):
But we tend to be sort of Well,we're not tend to be.
We are kind of like what'severybody up to?
What are we all doing, versusjust a single Like I'm in a
sales process with you and we'refiguring it out, and that kind
of thing.
So I'm just upskilling myself.
(46:29):
I've been learning a lot aboutAI and how to use that within a
company, listening to how peopleand I belong to a lot of
different global operationsnetworks and so attending quite
a few lectures on how ouroperations, people using AI, how
(46:49):
trying to learn it.
How am I doing it?
I've written a book with a chatGPT 14 chapter book with chat,
gpt and illustrations yeah, inan afternoon on sustainability.
It's never gonna be publishedbut it's just my own fun, like
how am I, what am I doing withthis, what is it capable of?
(47:09):
And so, yeah, so there's a lotof learning.
I actually also do executivementoring and so, working with
people and even small companieswho can't bring me on full time
but they wanna have somebody intheir back pocket, they can hire
(47:30):
me for a short series of timesthat I'll just come in and sort
of drop in and say, well, youknow, you could do this and you
could do that and you could dothis, or actually like serious
career mentoring and, believe itor not, I actually also marry
people, so I'm an efficient andI help people through that and
(47:50):
not through women, and sosummertime is a big moment for
weddings and yeah, so I'm a busyperson and it's fun that's one
way.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
What's the best way for people to get into contact
with you?
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Well, it's always best to go to my website, which
is demralindsycom, and you candownload, actually, a booklet on
the five operational tips forsaving you money.
It's in there and we bring uplike how do you do a process map
and other ways to save money,but there's also in there a link
(48:28):
to booking a 15 minute callwith me, a chit chat with me,
and so I think that that's kindof the best way to reach out to
me, and LinkedIn, of course, isalways a really good way.
I love connecting with peopleon LinkedIn.
So, if you are listening tothis, just go and find me.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Yeah, we'll add all of those links in the notes and
thank you so much for joining metoday, Deborah.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
Oh, Candice, it's been amazing.
Thank you so much for having me, and I hope that people who are
out there really understandthat I don't want people to be
afraid of climate change andsort of all the uncertainty, the
VUCA world we were talkingabout.
I think that when we'reknowledgeable and when we're
working together, we canactually solve a lot of these
things.
So just, it's okay, I didn't.
(49:17):
I realized that sometimes thatcan get kind of heavy and I just
want people to feel likethere's stuff to do.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
There's stuff to do, there's still hope.
Yes, thank you.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Hit subscribe to know when the next episodes come out
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And, if you're feeling generous, please leave a review.
Reviews help other like-mindedfolks find their way to this
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If something you heard todaybrought a smile to your face or
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(49:53):
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One is my newsletter, where Iput most of my time and energy
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(50:14):
and, of course, updates onwhat's happening with the
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Whenever something's going onwith me or in my business, it
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Another resource that I have foryou is my guide to doing work
differently.
This guide takes you throughfour inquiries into how you can
(50:35):
build a more sustainable andequitable work environment for
yourself and your team.
It's a great place if you'relooking for somewhere to get
started.
Last, if you've got a burningquestion, a comment or a
situation you'd like my eyes on,you can email me.
All those links are in the shownotes.
(50:56):
Take care, brave soul.
Catch you next time.
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