November 23, 2023 • 47 mins
What if the road to pay equity and fair compensation in the nonprofit sector could be navigated more smoothly? That's exactly what we're aiming to explore in this episode of The Hearth.
I'm joined by Susie Polnaszek, director of the Center for Nonprofit Excellence in Monterey County, to shine a light on the complexities of compensation and debunk the inherent assumptions in the nonprofit sector. Together, we trace the evolution of the sector and discuss the systemic inequities that can creep up.
We know nonprofits face a host of challenges, particularly regarding funding and volunteer retention. In our conversation, we take on these hurdles, dissecting how factors like funding restrictions, cost of living, and board decisions can leave a mark on compensation. Throw in a global pandemic, and the challenges only intensify - we discuss how COVID-19 has shifted volunteer priorities and what this could mean for nonprofits heavily reliant on their time and contributions.
As we navigate the pandemic and beyond, we're redefining what volunteer engagement means for success. We believe understanding volunteers' experiences and tapping into community resources are key to better engagement and management. We also recognize the fulfilling roles that volunteering plays in personal purpose and community building. Further, we dive into pay equity, sharing strategies to standardize pay and combat inequities.
Join me and Susie in our conversation, and we hope you enjoy.
If something you heard today brought a smile to your face or a spark to your heart, and you’d like to connect with me, here are a few ways you can do that.
One is my newsletter, it’s where I put most of my time and energy when I’m not working with clients or on this podcast. Sorry social media! It’s a mix of real life stories, tips and tricks and of course updates on what’s happening with the podcast. Whenever something is going on with me or in my business, it always comes out there first.
Another resource that I have for you is my Guide to Doing Work Differently. The guide takes you through four inquiries into how you can build a more sustainable and equitable work environment for yourself and your team. It's a great place to start.
Last, if you’ve got a burning question, a comment, or a situation you’d like my eyes on, you can email me at candice@fortressandflourish.com.
If you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe to know when the next episodes come out, and if you’re feeling generous, leave a review. Reviews help other like-minded folks find their way to this resource.
Learn more about Candice and her work here.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
The hearth is for you if you're a business leader
with a team.
Here we have conversationsabout how to keep growing.
When you feel you've reachedyour capacity, when what you're
doing is working but you'restarting to see the cracks, when
there's a gap between whereyou're at now and where you want
(00:26):
to be, here we find ways totransition through the struggle
of survival toward creating athriving business that supports
you and your team as wholehumans.
Your host is me, candiceElliott.
I'm a business strategist andmentor who specializes in
(00:49):
working with business owners whoare going through periods of
growth.
Especially when you're addingmore people to your team, the
practices and systems thatworked when your team was
smaller just don't seem to fitanymore, and when you're caught
in stress and reaction, it'stough to reimagine the way that
(01:14):
you created your world of work,both your own personal one and
the one that you created forothers.
I help people align theirvalues and business practices to
build practical, sustainable,thriving work ecosystems and no,
(01:35):
this isn't just some workutopia talk.
To do this, I bring forward mydecade-long professional
background in human resourcesand organizational development,
working with growing businessesacross many sectors, and my
decades-long search for meaningand wholeness, which includes
(01:59):
researching the history of workand how it came to be what it is
today, practicing atrauma-informed approach to
business and integrating work,life and spirituality into a
meaningful whole.
Let's take this journey together.
Welcome back to thehearth-brave souls.
(02:27):
I'm so happy that you're herejoining me today.
I'm sharing with you aconversation that I had with
Susie, who is the director ofthe Center for Nonprofit
Excellence in Monterey County atthe Monterey County Community
Foundation.
Susie and I have had theopportunity to work together on
(02:51):
a couple of workshops and thenthrough supporting a few
different nonprofits in theirhuman resources needs, and this
conversation that we had todayis really inquiring into what
success looks like in thenonprofit world and some of the
dynamics that we kind of have inthat space that maybe are more
(03:17):
challenging to work with.
So here is our conversation,susie.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
I've been really lookingforward to our conversation.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Thanks so much for this invitation.
I'm really looking forward toit too.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, you're welcome, so we'll just dive right in
here.
I'm wondering this is coming upa lot in a lot of different
nonprofits that I've beenworking with but the idea that
in the nonprofit world, peopleare supposed to be very giving
(03:57):
of their time andself-sacrificing and that they
shouldn't be paid as much asother work because they've
chosen to do this good thing,and I feel like there are a lot
of inequities that play intothis and I'm curious about your
(04:20):
thoughts on this issue.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah, there's a lot in there.
I thought one way to thinkabout this is to just really
recognize that as a sector,nonprofits are uniquely driven
by mission and benefit to thecommunity and our ability to tap
(04:43):
into that force, that force forgood, the level of commitment
and energy that groups can tapinto to accomplish things.
I mean it's unique and so Ithink it's worth just saying
that first off.
But I think when we take a lookat the values that guide our
(05:10):
work, it also I don't think wehave to choose between that and
valuing people and theirexpertise and their effort and
their work through compensation.
I don't think it's an either.
Or I do know that the historyof the sector is sort of we kind
(05:33):
of have evolved and we sort ofswing back and forth between
this charity model and thenmaybe on the other end of the
spectrum, more of informed bybusiness best practices or
learning from that sector, andso all along we've seen sort of
(05:55):
different takes on that.
But you're right, I think a lotof what the assumptions are
there do have to do with lots oftypes of inequity.
I think another piece too thatthat structural, is that in the
nonprofit sector there arefunding restrictions and
(06:18):
limitations on how funds areused.
That can put constraints, maybenot only at, like, a CEO level,
but for pay withinorganizations.
Sometimes it's tied up incontracts and how contracts are
structured and there's caps, ormaybe there's limitations by
funders, and so there's a lot ofthings that go into creating
(06:46):
these limitations.
And then I think we can't alsoignore the fact that our cost of
living, in our area too, is alimiting factor on being able to
engage a diverse talent andbeing able to have a sustainable
(07:08):
experience of work.
So there's just so manydynamics there.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
I've been working with a couple organizations who
receive a big influx of grantfunding, but it can only be used
for certain work and positions,and so then, how do you fairly
and equitably distribute thosefunds among the team that you
already have and then also bringin people to help support
(07:34):
bigger projects that happen, andI think, especially because the
cost of living here is so high,it's something that really
affects everybody across theboard.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yes, Well, and I think in, too, the nonprofit
board of directors, sort of theteam of folks that are helping
to govern the direction of theorganization and sustainability
growth.
They have a really importantrole here.
A role to play here, I think,in being aware of the different
(08:13):
dynamics that are at play in thelevels of compensation and pay
in their own organizations.
But also, I think they canreally do a lot to advocate for
fundraising, for building thatcapacity over time to be able to
(08:35):
do more in terms of fairlycompensating.
So here's another challenge.
Creating a diverse set ofperspectives on boards is really
important, because I think thathelps to drive to urgency and
action around issues like this,when people can bring those
important perspectives and say,hey, we're really going to
(08:58):
commit, we're going to raise thefunds needed to help us expand
our capacity to have more of aliving wage, if you will, or a
more equitable approach to ourpay.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, I'm so glad that you bring up the board of
directors because it's when youhave a more diverse group on the
board of directors I thinkthere can be really nuanced
conversations about what's goingon with pay, because you know
the budget comes around once ayear and you look at the budget
and you want to approve it as aboard, and sometimes it's just
(09:37):
rubber stamping and then othertimes it is really looking at
what the numbers are, not justis it a balanced budget, but how
is?
How are the funds beingdistributed and is that in
alignment with the values of theorganization and the mission?
And I find that sometimes theway that the pay works isn't
(09:57):
actually aligned with the values.
Like an organization who youknow hires a demographic, for
instance, that they aresupporting, like I don't know,
maybe it's veterans, or who youknow, a group like that but
doesn't pay a living wage to thepeople who work for them.
There's this disconnect thereand it almost is like the
(10:20):
problem is so big, like what dowe do about that?
So we just keep doing whatwe're doing?
Yeah, so it's definitely achallenging space, but the board
of directors is such awonderful resource that a
nonprofit has that is notnecessarily the same in a
for-profit company.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Well, I appreciate what you said about this problem
is so big and how do we takesteps?
And I've appreciated in yourwork you know I understand that
you work with groups to kind ofbreak things down into those
steps like what are one or twothings we could do to maybe it's
not something we can fix inthis budget cycle but you know
building a pathway and so Ithink that is oftentimes what
(11:06):
you know maybe can help give aboost is like working with
trusted partners who can kind ofhelp you think about this over
time and then bringing closeinto closer alignment and that
commitment I think is a bigfirst step.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Yeah, and a board can see strategically to that
five-year kind of mark, whereasyou know it can be more
difficult if you're in theday-to-day of everything to be
able to hold that long-term kindof vision.
So this is one of those kindsof unsustainable types of
(11:45):
practices that come up innonprofits and I'm wondering if
there are any other ones thatyou see commonly.
I get this one a lot becauseit's so related to HR and but
I'm wondering if there areothers that come up and what
people can do about those ones.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Well, you know, I had one thought about this, this
one and it isn't so much, maybe,a business practice, but a
dynamic and unique to nonprofitsand and it's something that's
coming up, I think, a lot forpeople as they recalibrate from
from the pandemic but is thereliance and resource of
(12:31):
volunteers within our sector.
And I was remembering there's ablog post by the California
Association of Nonprofits, calNonprofits, and they're always
really good at, you know, sortof putting things in a catchy
way.
But they said, you know,volunteers are like the bees in
(12:53):
the nonprofit sector, so likewhen you see this trouble with
honey bees is like a sign, youknow, of distress in the system.
And so I think it's not a newtrend that volunteer engagement
and retention is, you know,shifting, is changing it's, it's
it's a challenge for fornonprofits to sustain their
(13:19):
volunteer programs.
But I think, since the pandemic, what a lot of people have
shared with me is thatvolunteers are shifting their
priorities and they've donetheir own soul searching and you
know they may realize like nowis the time for me to do this
other big thing and or take,take this new direction, or take
(13:43):
a risk, go go pursue this otherinterest, and so it may be
taking them away from acommitment that they've had over
many years with an organizationand their work.
And so because nonprofits dodepend many of them depend on
the contributions of of the timeof volunteers for their program
success.
(14:04):
In many cases it does put astrain and I think I think what
also we're seeing is that, justin terms of the kinds of
volunteer opportunities peopleare looking for, they may not,
they may not be as comfortablesigning up for something long
term or even in person.
(14:25):
You know, I think people arelooking for more discrete
opportunities to give back oftheir time and and so it's an
opportunity maybe for nonprofitsto to flex a little bit with
what where the volunteerinterest is now, and I worked
with a group recently thatdepends very heavily on
(14:50):
volunteers for their work andthey instituted a process of a
feedback loop, which they'd hadsome feedback processes in place
before, but they reallyinvested time and listening to
their long-term volunteers toreally hear what their
experience was, and it was agreat learning because they were
(15:12):
able to see some pain pointsthat were coming up that they
really didn't have as muchawareness of before, and so
through this process they wereable to kind of like reduce some
of that friction for thevolunteer experience and I think
then just strengthenunderstanding, strengthen the
(15:36):
commitment of the volunteers.
So you know, taking the time forrebuilding I think is where a
lot of people are right now.
There's some great communityresources out there for
nonprofits.
I'm thinking of like theVolunteer Center in Santa Cruz
County and then in MontereyCounty we have community
builders for Monterey County andthere's sort of hubs, if you
(15:59):
will, for both people seekingopportunities to volunteer but
also for the nonprofits toengage and then also some help
managing those, those volunteers.
So I think it's maybe not anunstable business practice, but
it's something on the horizonthat I think a lot of folks are
(16:19):
grappling with right now.
And how do we get people tocome back to our work.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Yeah, it's making me think of this.
You know, epidemic of isolationand loneliness that's happening
and how being a volunteer in anonprofit organization helps you
to interact with your communityand build community and get to
know people.
When I first moved to SantaCruz I think it was 12 years ago
(16:48):
now I volunteered at the WalnutAvenue Women's Center, which
helps with domestic violence andall these different kinds of
issues, and just worked at thefront desk and met people that I
know to this day and it was areally wonderful way to spend,
you know, a couple of mornings aweek, getting to know the
community and being able to helpin a really practical way.
(17:09):
And it's, I think.
You know, sometimes when you'reyounger and you're thinking of
volunteer things, you'rethinking about your future
career or something like that.
But I think, as a young person,just spending time in any kind
of organization doing somethingthat you love is great, and then
(17:30):
you get to learn howorganizations work and how to
give back.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that.
First of all, that's a greatorganization and great story
that you shared, and somethingthat our sector can really help
people connect to is purpose,you know, and what that brings
to our experience in life issomething really powerful.
(17:59):
And I can very much relate towhat you said about isolation
and really kind of finding myway back to community, and so I
think you're right to mentionthat in the context of you know
how volunteers have shifted andfor different people.
(18:21):
You know some people probablywere like, as soon as they could
, they were like right back outthere and involved and, just,
you know, no time wasted.
But I think for others and Iinclude myself, it's process
getting comfortable, being justback and reconnected.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah, for me too, and I happen to have a baby in the
pandemic, so even more.
It just kind of removed me fromgroups that I was spending a
lot of time with right, as ithappened.
And then, yeah, it's just, it'sdifferent, but I so you bring
(19:00):
up purpose and I'm wondering howwe can redefine what it means
to be successful within thecontext of our nonprofit work
and what ideas you have aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Great question and, gosh, there's so many different
ways into that question.
I think, as I reflected aboutit, I was thinking in terms of
kind of like career success orpersonal success, and but I
think there's also ways to kindof take it as an organization.
(19:40):
Why, too?
But connecting back to thepandemic again, I think you know
it was such a great lesson inhow interconnected we are, just
by our very nature we're.
You know my wellbeing isconnected to others.
You know your wellbeing, and Ithink there's something in
(20:06):
having that understandingbrought to light so strongly is,
like you know, in some ways,like our success is also
interconnected to other success,and so that's the piece that I
think is standing out for me onthis.
And you know, I think it's beeneasy to overlook or maybe
(20:34):
there's so many ways that it'sinvisible how that
interconnection affects us.
And sometimes, you know, it'seasy to overlook, like how
different support systems ordifferent people have
contributed to our success andin other ways, systems have been
(20:56):
barriers to success that wehave maybe not always been as
consciously aware of.
And so I feel like now, in thisquestion about redefining it, I
think it's partly taking thetime to really acknowledge, like
, what are those invisiblesystems you know that maybe are
contributing to being able tomove ahead or maybe holding
(21:21):
folks back.
And I'm thinking too, justabout that interconnectedness,
like thinking about you know,our organization or community
foundation and we havescholarship funds and you know,
a lot of times thesescholarships will go to folks
who are first generation collegegoing students and you know, in
(21:44):
stories they share, you reallysee how interconnected the
success of this older sibling isto younger siblings,
educational goals and success,and even economically and moving
forward as a family.
(22:05):
And so I think, you know, justtaking stock of how we are, we
may hear these stories aboutlike well, I graduated this
degree and I was so successfuland I moved up because I did XYZ
thing in my career.
And I think we just have anopportunity to be more
(22:30):
intentional about seeing thosedifferent dynamics at play and
then also have an opportunity tosee like, hey, you know, as
leaders, a side of success or amarker of success might be like
how many other leaders did youhelp grow?
How did you help cultivateother success, you know, or the
(22:55):
success of your team or othertalent, things like that.
So that's kind of what comes tomind for me.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah, it really sounds like community building,
creating partnerships andsupporting the aspirations and
dreams of others, and being ableto find the resources to
distribute fairly, you know, topeople who need them.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I think, too, I was really influenced by this book.
It's called Equity how toDesign Organizations when
Everyone Thrives, and she writesabout.
The author writes about kind ofkey leadership practices for
this just generatingorganizations like this, and one
(23:43):
she calls systems site.
So it kind of gets at that ideaof like making systems more
visible and being able to talkabout them in your story of
success and including thingsthat you know hold you back or
that or that are inherently kindof like boosting boosting you
forward or giving you support.
(24:04):
So it's definitely somethingthat got me, got me thinking in
this direction.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah, because so many of our systems are invisible or
they're visible to a smallgroup but not really talked
about outside of that.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah, and I think, unless we start to see them or
talk about them, like it'sharder to dismantle them or, you
know, or strengthen othersystems that are working.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
What are some of the ways at the Center for Nonprofit
Excellence that you are lookinglike, that you guys are looking
at your systems?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah, well, I think you know this kind of relates
back to your other questionabout sustainable practices,
because I think a shift thatI've noticed, just as we're
coming back from the pandemic,is there was a time when we were
really kind of spreadingourselves in terms of the types
of programming we were offeringand, and with good intention.
(25:06):
You know, we had a lot ofmaterial we wanted to share and
people we were trying to reach.
But I think having theopportunity to pause and be a
little more intentional aboutthe impact that we're trying to
make and being able to I don'tknow, maybe just refine our
focus a little bit, has beenimportant, because I think it
(25:29):
does.
It does also get to this issueof sustainability and you know,
I think it's the practice of,like wanting to say yes to every
single opportunity and and alsoknowing that that can lead to
not just burnout, but it can.
It can just spread us reallythin and that there's also value
(25:49):
and we can get, we can gainenergy by by focusing on, you
know, one or two core things andand allowing those to grow and
evolve, and and then so I thinkI would say our practices are
are just trying to be veryintentional and mindful and and
(26:11):
do a lot of listening and createthose feedback loops, I guess
in our work, and it's also beena great opportunity to just
reconnect and create spaces forother nonprofits to connect with
one another.
You know we talked about theisolation and I think you know
(26:32):
nonprofits it's hard work andthere's a lot, there's a lot of
people are dealing with just inthe work itself.
And so our Center for nonprofits, excellence, you know we really
are trying to nurture thoseopportunities for folks to
connect with one another and,you know, just a place where
they can just be themselves,they can feel, thank you, yeah,
(26:59):
really a chance to, you know,maybe put aside the need to have
to have all the answers and bethe expert and be able to kind
of solve every problem thatcomes up, you know, as a leader
or whatever, but to kind of putthat on hold for a sec and for a
few hours with their peers andto kind of have a chance to
(27:23):
learn.
And it's okay that we were justlearning together, you know,
and supporting and sharing oneanother, so with one another.
That's just what we've beentrying to focus on, because we
realize, like for a lot of folksright now it's kind of.
It's sort of like the basicneeds, what they're asking for
(27:46):
and really wanting.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Yeah, it makes me think about when the pandemic
first happened.
Right, it was like triage forlike a year, trying to figure
out all the new things that werehappening, but I think that so
many of us did learn together.
There were so many things tolearn at the same time, and so
there are kind of these likesystems and people are
(28:10):
interested in learning together.
And I was so interested by theworkshop that you did on mental,
mental health and wellness andhave been going very deep down
that that research there's.
So there's so much out therethat there are studies that have
(28:33):
been done at the academic levelthat are related to you know
how like business structuresthat can be created that can
decrease people's stress andhave a positive effect on their
their well-being and theirfamily life.
And one of those studies wasdone with the gap, with all
these gap employees, and whatthey did was they just
(28:56):
standardized to their schedules.
So instead of having schedulesthat were changing every single
week and you could kind of becalled in at any time, they
started having regular schedulesand I think it was like a, you
know, at least a 48 hour windowof notice if you were going to
be called in to work and itincreased sales by like 5%.
(29:19):
And then they did you know,stress and different kinds of
tests and it helped people'sblood pressure to go down and
all of these really interestingbenefits.
And I think in shift workpeople don't really think about
what an impact a changingschedule has like, especially on
parents.
(29:40):
That's just one of them,there's so many.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Yeah, well, it kind of goes back to that, that piece
about interconnection, andwe're not, you know, our mind,
body, well-being it's.
We're not different, differentpieces, we're like we're whole,
you know.
And so having having a broader,more expansive understanding or
approach, even in the workplace, I think, has some real
(30:07):
implications on how we cansustain ourselves and our work.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
We were talking earlier about.
You know budgeting and financeand pay, but also, I think if
the leadership is so far removedfrom the people who are working
, it becomes easier to makedecisions where you don't really
understand the implications ofthem.
Like, we have all these workers, we need to have the store
(30:37):
filled, or you know, we needpeople to be working all these
different hours and so they justhave to be able to figure out
how to come in when we need themand to see the person as this
commodity basically.
But really, I think if you havemore of a connection between
people who are making thesekinds of decisions and then the
reality of what it is like tolive within those decisions,
(31:01):
that helps to create fairersystems.
Well said so, are there anykind of trends that you have
been seeing recently that wehaven't talked about that are
specifically related toleadership, development and
collaboration?
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Well, I think we did touch on it briefly, but really
just like this thirst forconnection with one another by
leaders, I think you know thatsense of maybe just isolation,
having folks that they can turnto to talk about the challenges
that they have or even justcelebrate with one another.
(31:43):
I think a trend might be that inthe past, you know, in the past
and I don't want to downplaythe importance of places where
you can learn importantmanagement practices and good,
solid information and input forhow we do our work well, but I
think in the past, trainingopportunities or leadership
(32:06):
development, there was anemphasis on on the content, on
the presentation of information,kind of downloading of
information, and I think wherewe see leadership development
really having more confidence incentering that interpersonal
experience, the network buildingand really creating I don't
(32:32):
want to use the word like safespaces, but really because
there's so many differentdynamics, you know, in any field
.
But in nonprofits there's likefunding, environment and
landscape and is therecompetition?
Is there, how do we positionourselves, you know, with
different organizations and solike trying to really nurture an
(32:52):
environment where people can bein relationship and build trust
and really have that as kind ofa starting point.
So I don't know if I hope it'snot a trend.
I have it as a development andhelping these be more effective
and stronger, but definitely Ithink just seeing more and more
(33:16):
acknowledgement of the value ofthat in developing leaders for
our communities.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
And helping too with the filtering of what actually
belongs in this organizationversus.
You know, maybe this project isamazing, but it actually
there's another organizationthat would fit better, and so
it's not like the work doesn'tget done, it's just spread out
across everybody's differentexpertise.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
And hard to have those relationships during COVID
.
You know, across organizationsand as you know very well, so
much churn and transition ofstaffing and positions and so
just really rebuilding a lot ofthat, and executive directors
too.
So many, yeah, yeah, so many.
(34:05):
So just an opportunity torebuild awareness of the great
work that's happening down thestreet or, you know, across the
way, for even for thosepotential partnerships or
opportunities to align.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Yeah, I've always noticed when I go to a
presentation, I alwaysappreciate if the presenter
gives some time for me to meetthe people around me, because
I'm not necessarily the personwho's going to go to a thing and
then really get into deepconversations, because I am kind
of introverted.
But if it's a part of the thingand it's like you know, get
(34:44):
into a group of three and sharewhat you do and kind of connect
with each other, yeah, it's justwonderful and I know that's
always a part of the workshopsthat you do.
There's some kind of breakoutsessions where we get to talk to
each other.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Yeah, we definitely aim to have that, have that
opportunity for folks.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Well, if folks are listening and they want to
connect with you or with theCenter for Nonprofit Excellence,
what is the best way for themto do that?
Speaker 2 (35:16):
A great way is to visit the Community Foundation
for Monterey County's websiteand that's at cfmcoorg forward
slash, cne.
That would be the best way, andwe do have our Leadership
Institute for 2024, will bedoing recruitment for
(35:37):
participants this fall, and Ialso have a book discussion
series coming up that I'll befacilitating on that equity book
that I mentioned and that'sopen to all nonprofits in our
community, and great way to justdig into that topic a little
further as well as get to meetsome of the peers Is there
(35:58):
anything that you wanted to talkabout that we didn't get the
chance to yet.
I was curious just to hear about.
You know a lot of the work Isee you doing around pay, equity
living wage, helpingorganizations make shifts.
Do you have any like advice forsomeone who's just kind of
(36:22):
starting to think about thatprocess?
We talked a little bit aboutboards and the role they play
but I don't know if do you haveany just words of wisdom for you
know, taking it from kind ofthese aspirations and then
helping folks get started.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah, I actually just helped someone with this, so
I'm like all about it.
So what we did?
All the information can seemkind of squirrely, especially if
you're dealing with grantfunding and allocating, and it
can get sort of like tied intothat whole process and sometimes
(37:05):
there's independent contractorsand employees and all these
different things.
So what we started by doing wasjust listing all the employees
names and their job titles.
And the job titles might beweird or not exactly what
they're supposed to be, but justyou want to start with what you
have.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Kind of an inventory of what's there.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Yeah, so their names, their job titles, if they're
paid hourly or salary, theamount that they're paid, and
then what kinds of benefitsthey're getting if there are
benefits in the organization.
And the first thing is to justtry to standardize across the
(37:50):
different categories ofemployees that you have.
So when I talk about categoriesof employees, one of the types
of categories is whether they'repaid hourly or paid salary, and
so it could be, for example,with benefits, that hourly
employees get certain kinds ofbenefits and salaried employees
(38:11):
get other kinds of benefits, andthat's a pretty pretty, a more
you know, simple kind ofstandardization to try to figure
out is just what are ourbenefits?
Who gets what, making it thesame for everybody.
Who makes these differentcategories?
(38:31):
And then when you're starting tolook at pay to see what kinds
of levels of responsibilitythere are in the organization so
there's probably an executivedirector or maybe it's an
operations director, there'sprobably some kind of
administrative staff, and thenthere's some kind of program
(38:53):
staff, and then withinadministrative and program staff
you might have some managersand then you might have some
other positions that we'll justcall frontline positions, and so
you can compare the pay of themanagers with each other and
you're looking for that pay tobe equitable, and when you're
(39:17):
trying to figure out what isequitable, you can use the fair
pay for Northern Californianonprofits as a great resource
for that.
We have talked about thatbefore.
I think most communityfoundations in California so do
have that.
So if you're somewhere else inthe state you should be able to
(39:40):
access it too, and there's adifferent one for Northern
California and SouthernCalifornia.
And then there's also, you know, because organizations have to
start publishing their pay rates.
In California now you can findpretty good information about
pay on Indeed or just differentwebsites.
(40:01):
I know a lot of nonprofitorganizations have some
crossover with city and countyjobs and staff, so you can
always look up those jobdescriptions.
They're always available andthe pay rates are always
available, and so you can startto see how the pay in your
organization is comparing withother similar kinds of
(40:23):
organizations.
And that's where you start tomake your plans for what you
want to do in the future.
And typically the first place westart is just with dealing with
any inequities that areunintentionally a part of the
system that currently exists.
So maybe there's a managerwho's paid way below all the
(40:46):
other managers and it's notbecause they don't have, you
know, the similar level of jobresponsibilities.
It's just they've been with theorganization for a long time
and never got a raise because ofthings that happens, you know,
or someone was hired in to a newposition this happens all the
(41:08):
time and you had to pay them acertain amount in order to be
able to hire them.
But that means that they're nowpaid above a whole bunch of
other people that work in theorganization.
So it's trying to create a planto bring everybody up to that
same amount and then creatingyour systems for ongoing like
(41:31):
looking at what's happening withpay and reviewing it and
creating the plan for next year.
So that can look like decidingon percentage merit increases or
cost of living adjustments thathappen annually.
You can tie performance reviewsto raises or you can have them
(41:54):
be completely separate and doperformance reviews at one time
of year and raises at anothertime of year.
You can come up with kind of aplan for bonuses or, if you have
cash influxes, what you'regoing to do with those.
And then another thing to thinkabout this is like there's more
(42:15):
in the later end of things,when there is financial
stability, is having differentsavings.
I call them savings buckets,but like if you want to be able
to provide paid parental leave,then deciding how much you want
to contribute to that and havingsome savings that's already
(42:35):
available for that use.
Or if you have a paid time offpolicy, having a savings bucket
so that if someone leaves andthey have a large balance, then
you're able to pay it out andit's not like a scramble to try
to find the funds for it.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Yeah, I love how, how practical and systematic that
is.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Yeah, I find it really helps to just get it out
where you can see it, instead ofand I use a spreadsheet and
keep it really simple like withjust the main pieces of
information in it.
So it's not because sometimes Ithink executive directors or
(43:20):
boards will try to look throughthis information, but it will
come out as more of like anarrative in a longer like word
document and it'll tell a storyabout how the decision was made
and it'll have all theinformation in it, or some of it
(43:40):
will be missing, and but if youjust look at it in that kind of
spreadsheet form, it's easierto see where the discrepancies
might be and to be able toaddress them.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
Thank you for all the support that you can bring for
people around that and ifanybody needs help with that,
I'm happy to help.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
The other part of it is that it's kind of like
activating for the nervoussystem to look at all the
numbers and the people andthere's like fairness is wrapped
up in it and that people canfeel judgment or stress or and
(44:24):
often the executive directorspay, as like in this list too
and so there's a part of it thatis also giving yourself time to
process, to look at it and thenmaybe take a little bit of time
away and then look at it againand to have a really clear
(44:45):
communication plan around anychanges that you're making.
Because if you just keeptalking to the staff every tiny
step of the way of yourdecision-making process, that
actually is more stressful forthem than if you work through
the issues first and then kindof present a plan and you can
(45:06):
ask for feedback on that plan Ifyou want to.
There's a good process that youwould want to have in place for
that, but I can see itsometimes gets really squirrely
and difficult for people if theydon't know what is going to
happen with their pay.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Yeah, so many different layers and levels to
that process change process.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
Yeah, thank you for the question and thank you so
much for joining me, it wasAnnice.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
it's been really fun, thank you.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
Hit subscribe to know when the next episodes come out
.
And, if you're feeling generous, please leave a review.
Reviews help other like-mindedfolks find their way to this
resource.
If something you heard todaybrought a smile to your face or
a spark to your heart and you'dlike to connect with me, there
(46:01):
are a few ways to do that.
One is my newsletter, where Iput most of my time and energy
when I'm not working withclients or with my family or
working on this podcast Sorry,social media.
The newsletter is a mix of reallife stories, tips and tricks
(46:22):
and, of course, updates onwhat's happening with the
podcast.
Whenever something's going onwith me or in my business, it
always comes out there first.
Another resource that I have foryou is my guide to doing work
differently.
This guide takes you throughfour inquiries into how you can
(46:43):
build a more sustainable andequitable work environment for
yourself and your team.
It's a great place if you'relooking for somewhere to get
started.
Last, if you've got a burningquestion, a comment or a
situation you'd like my eyes on,you can email me.
All those links are in the shownotes.
(47:04):
Take care, Brave Soul.
Catch you next time.
The hearth is for you if you're a business leader
with a team.
Here we have conversationsabout how to keep growing.
When you feel you've reachedyour capacity, when what you're
doing is working but you'restarting to see the cracks, when
there's a gap between whereyou're at now and where you want
(00:26):
to be, here we find ways totransition through the struggle
of survival toward creating athriving business that supports
you and your team as wholehumans.
Your host is me, candiceElliott.
I'm a business strategist andmentor who specializes in
(00:49):
working with business owners whoare going through periods of
growth.
Especially when you're addingmore people to your team, the
practices and systems thatworked when your team was
smaller just don't seem to fitanymore, and when you're caught
in stress and reaction, it'stough to reimagine the way that
(01:14):
you created your world of work,both your own personal one and
the one that you created forothers.
I help people align theirvalues and business practices to
build practical, sustainable,thriving work ecosystems and no,
(01:35):
this isn't just some workutopia talk.
To do this, I bring forward mydecade-long professional
background in human resourcesand organizational development,
working with growing businessesacross many sectors, and my
decades-long search for meaningand wholeness, which includes
(01:59):
researching the history of workand how it came to be what it is
today, practicing atrauma-informed approach to
business and integrating work,life and spirituality into a
meaningful whole.
Let's take this journey together.
Welcome back to thehearth-brave souls.
(02:27):
I'm so happy that you're herejoining me today.
I'm sharing with you aconversation that I had with
Susie, who is the director ofthe Center for Nonprofit
Excellence in Monterey County atthe Monterey County Community
Foundation.
Susie and I have had theopportunity to work together on
(02:51):
a couple of workshops and thenthrough supporting a few
different nonprofits in theirhuman resources needs, and this
conversation that we had todayis really inquiring into what
success looks like in thenonprofit world and some of the
dynamics that we kind of have inthat space that maybe are more
(03:17):
challenging to work with.
So here is our conversation,susie.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
I've been really lookingforward to our conversation.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Thanks so much for this invitation.
I'm really looking forward toit too.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, you're welcome, so we'll just dive right in
here.
I'm wondering this is coming upa lot in a lot of different
nonprofits that I've beenworking with but the idea that
in the nonprofit world, peopleare supposed to be very giving
(03:57):
of their time andself-sacrificing and that they
shouldn't be paid as much asother work because they've
chosen to do this good thing,and I feel like there are a lot
of inequities that play intothis and I'm curious about your
(04:20):
thoughts on this issue.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah, there's a lot in there.
I thought one way to thinkabout this is to just really
recognize that as a sector,nonprofits are uniquely driven
by mission and benefit to thecommunity and our ability to tap
(04:43):
into that force, that force forgood, the level of commitment
and energy that groups can tapinto to accomplish things.
I mean it's unique and so Ithink it's worth just saying
that first off.
But I think when we take a lookat the values that guide our
(05:10):
work, it also I don't think wehave to choose between that and
valuing people and theirexpertise and their effort and
their work through compensation.
I don't think it's an either.
Or I do know that the historyof the sector is sort of we kind
(05:33):
of have evolved and we sort ofswing back and forth between
this charity model and thenmaybe on the other end of the
spectrum, more of informed bybusiness best practices or
learning from that sector, andso all along we've seen sort of
(05:55):
different takes on that.
But you're right, I think a lotof what the assumptions are
there do have to do with lots oftypes of inequity.
I think another piece too thatthat structural, is that in the
nonprofit sector there arefunding restrictions and
(06:18):
limitations on how funds areused.
That can put constraints, maybenot only at, like, a CEO level,
but for pay withinorganizations.
Sometimes it's tied up incontracts and how contracts are
structured and there's caps, ormaybe there's limitations by
funders, and so there's a lot ofthings that go into creating
(06:46):
these limitations.
And then I think we can't alsoignore the fact that our cost of
living, in our area too, is alimiting factor on being able to
engage a diverse talent andbeing able to have a sustainable
(07:08):
experience of work.
So there's just so manydynamics there.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
I've been working with a couple organizations who
receive a big influx of grantfunding, but it can only be used
for certain work and positions,and so then, how do you fairly
and equitably distribute thosefunds among the team that you
already have and then also bringin people to help support
(07:34):
bigger projects that happen, andI think, especially because the
cost of living here is so high,it's something that really
affects everybody across theboard.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yes, Well, and I think in, too, the nonprofit
board of directors, sort of theteam of folks that are helping
to govern the direction of theorganization and sustainability
growth.
They have a really importantrole here.
A role to play here, I think,in being aware of the different
(08:13):
dynamics that are at play in thelevels of compensation and pay
in their own organizations.
But also, I think they canreally do a lot to advocate for
fundraising, for building thatcapacity over time to be able to
(08:35):
do more in terms of fairlycompensating.
So here's another challenge.
Creating a diverse set ofperspectives on boards is really
important, because I think thathelps to drive to urgency and
action around issues like this,when people can bring those
important perspectives and say,hey, we're really going to
(08:58):
commit, we're going to raise thefunds needed to help us expand
our capacity to have more of aliving wage, if you will, or a
more equitable approach to ourpay.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, I'm so glad that you bring up the board of
directors because it's when youhave a more diverse group on the
board of directors I thinkthere can be really nuanced
conversations about what's goingon with pay, because you know
the budget comes around once ayear and you look at the budget
and you want to approve it as aboard, and sometimes it's just
(09:37):
rubber stamping and then othertimes it is really looking at
what the numbers are, not justis it a balanced budget, but how
is?
How are the funds beingdistributed and is that in
alignment with the values of theorganization and the mission?
And I find that sometimes theway that the pay works isn't
(09:57):
actually aligned with the values.
Like an organization who youknow hires a demographic, for
instance, that they aresupporting, like I don't know,
maybe it's veterans, or who youknow, a group like that but
doesn't pay a living wage to thepeople who work for them.
There's this disconnect thereand it almost is like the
(10:20):
problem is so big, like what dowe do about that?
So we just keep doing whatwe're doing?
Yeah, so it's definitely achallenging space, but the board
of directors is such awonderful resource that a
nonprofit has that is notnecessarily the same in a
for-profit company.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Well, I appreciate what you said about this problem
is so big and how do we takesteps?
And I've appreciated in yourwork you know I understand that
you work with groups to kind ofbreak things down into those
steps like what are one or twothings we could do to maybe it's
not something we can fix inthis budget cycle but you know
building a pathway and so Ithink that is oftentimes what
(11:06):
you know maybe can help give aboost is like working with
trusted partners who can kind ofhelp you think about this over
time and then bringing closeinto closer alignment and that
commitment I think is a bigfirst step.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Yeah, and a board can see strategically to that
five-year kind of mark, whereasyou know it can be more
difficult if you're in theday-to-day of everything to be
able to hold that long-term kindof vision.
So this is one of those kindsof unsustainable types of
(11:45):
practices that come up innonprofits and I'm wondering if
there are any other ones thatyou see commonly.
I get this one a lot becauseit's so related to HR and but
I'm wondering if there areothers that come up and what
people can do about those ones.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Well, you know, I had one thought about this, this
one and it isn't so much, maybe,a business practice, but a
dynamic and unique to nonprofitsand and it's something that's
coming up, I think, a lot forpeople as they recalibrate from
from the pandemic but is thereliance and resource of
(12:31):
volunteers within our sector.
And I was remembering there's ablog post by the California
Association of Nonprofits, calNonprofits, and they're always
really good at, you know, sortof putting things in a catchy
way.
But they said, you know,volunteers are like the bees in
(12:53):
the nonprofit sector, so likewhen you see this trouble with
honey bees is like a sign, youknow, of distress in the system.
And so I think it's not a newtrend that volunteer engagement
and retention is, you know,shifting, is changing it's, it's
it's a challenge for fornonprofits to sustain their
(13:19):
volunteer programs.
But I think, since the pandemic, what a lot of people have
shared with me is thatvolunteers are shifting their
priorities and they've donetheir own soul searching and you
know they may realize like nowis the time for me to do this
other big thing and or take,take this new direction, or take
(13:43):
a risk, go go pursue this otherinterest, and so it may be
taking them away from acommitment that they've had over
many years with an organizationand their work.
And so because nonprofits dodepend many of them depend on
the contributions of of the timeof volunteers for their program
success.
(14:04):
In many cases it does put astrain and I think I think what
also we're seeing is that, justin terms of the kinds of
volunteer opportunities peopleare looking for, they may not,
they may not be as comfortablesigning up for something long
term or even in person.
(14:25):
You know, I think people arelooking for more discrete
opportunities to give back oftheir time and and so it's an
opportunity maybe for nonprofitsto to flex a little bit with
what where the volunteerinterest is now, and I worked
with a group recently thatdepends very heavily on
(14:50):
volunteers for their work andthey instituted a process of a
feedback loop, which they'd hadsome feedback processes in place
before, but they reallyinvested time and listening to
their long-term volunteers toreally hear what their
experience was, and it was agreat learning because they were
(15:12):
able to see some pain pointsthat were coming up that they
really didn't have as muchawareness of before, and so
through this process they wereable to kind of like reduce some
of that friction for thevolunteer experience and I think
then just strengthenunderstanding, strengthen the
(15:36):
commitment of the volunteers.
So you know, taking the time forrebuilding I think is where a
lot of people are right now.
There's some great communityresources out there for
nonprofits.
I'm thinking of like theVolunteer Center in Santa Cruz
County and then in MontereyCounty we have community
builders for Monterey County andthere's sort of hubs, if you
(15:59):
will, for both people seekingopportunities to volunteer but
also for the nonprofits toengage and then also some help
managing those, those volunteers.
So I think it's maybe not anunstable business practice, but
it's something on the horizonthat I think a lot of folks are
(16:19):
grappling with right now.
And how do we get people tocome back to our work.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Yeah, it's making me think of this.
You know, epidemic of isolationand loneliness that's happening
and how being a volunteer in anonprofit organization helps you
to interact with your communityand build community and get to
know people.
When I first moved to SantaCruz I think it was 12 years ago
(16:48):
now I volunteered at the WalnutAvenue Women's Center, which
helps with domestic violence andall these different kinds of
issues, and just worked at thefront desk and met people that I
know to this day and it was areally wonderful way to spend,
you know, a couple of mornings aweek, getting to know the
community and being able to helpin a really practical way.
(17:09):
And it's, I think.
You know, sometimes when you'reyounger and you're thinking of
volunteer things, you'rethinking about your future
career or something like that.
But I think, as a young person,just spending time in any kind
of organization doing somethingthat you love is great, and then
(17:30):
you get to learn howorganizations work and how to
give back.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that.
First of all, that's a greatorganization and great story
that you shared, and somethingthat our sector can really help
people connect to is purpose,you know, and what that brings
to our experience in life issomething really powerful.
(17:59):
And I can very much relate towhat you said about isolation
and really kind of finding myway back to community, and so I
think you're right to mentionthat in the context of you know
how volunteers have shifted andfor different people.
(18:21):
You know some people probablywere like, as soon as they could
, they were like right back outthere and involved and, just,
you know, no time wasted.
But I think for others and Iinclude myself, it's process
getting comfortable, being justback and reconnected.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah, for me too, and I happen to have a baby in the
pandemic, so even more.
It just kind of removed me fromgroups that I was spending a
lot of time with right, as ithappened.
And then, yeah, it's just, it'sdifferent, but I so you bring
(19:00):
up purpose and I'm wondering howwe can redefine what it means
to be successful within thecontext of our nonprofit work
and what ideas you have aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Great question and, gosh, there's so many different
ways into that question.
I think, as I reflected aboutit, I was thinking in terms of
kind of like career success orpersonal success, and but I
think there's also ways to kindof take it as an organization.
(19:40):
Why, too?
But connecting back to thepandemic again, I think you know
it was such a great lesson inhow interconnected we are, just
by our very nature we're.
You know my wellbeing isconnected to others.
You know your wellbeing, and Ithink there's something in
(20:06):
having that understandingbrought to light so strongly is,
like you know, in some ways,like our success is also
interconnected to other success,and so that's the piece that I
think is standing out for me onthis.
And you know, I think it's beeneasy to overlook or maybe
(20:34):
there's so many ways that it'sinvisible how that
interconnection affects us.
And sometimes, you know, it'seasy to overlook, like how
different support systems ordifferent people have
contributed to our success andin other ways, systems have been
(20:56):
barriers to success that wehave maybe not always been as
consciously aware of.
And so I feel like now, in thisquestion about redefining it, I
think it's partly taking thetime to really acknowledge, like
, what are those invisiblesystems you know that maybe are
contributing to being able tomove ahead or maybe holding
(21:21):
folks back.
And I'm thinking too, justabout that interconnectedness,
like thinking about you know,our organization or community
foundation and we havescholarship funds and you know,
a lot of times thesescholarships will go to folks
who are first generation collegegoing students and you know, in
(21:44):
stories they share, you reallysee how interconnected the
success of this older sibling isto younger siblings,
educational goals and success,and even economically and moving
forward as a family.
(22:05):
And so I think, you know, justtaking stock of how we are, we
may hear these stories aboutlike well, I graduated this
degree and I was so successfuland I moved up because I did XYZ
thing in my career.
And I think we just have anopportunity to be more
(22:30):
intentional about seeing thosedifferent dynamics at play and
then also have an opportunity tosee like, hey, you know, as
leaders, a side of success or amarker of success might be like
how many other leaders did youhelp grow?
How did you help cultivateother success, you know, or the
(22:55):
success of your team or othertalent, things like that.
So that's kind of what comes tomind for me.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah, it really sounds like community building,
creating partnerships andsupporting the aspirations and
dreams of others, and being ableto find the resources to
distribute fairly, you know, topeople who need them.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I think, too, I was really influenced by this book.
It's called Equity how toDesign Organizations when
Everyone Thrives, and she writesabout.
The author writes about kind ofkey leadership practices for
this just generatingorganizations like this, and one
(23:43):
she calls systems site.
So it kind of gets at that ideaof like making systems more
visible and being able to talkabout them in your story of
success and including thingsthat you know hold you back or
that or that are inherently kindof like boosting boosting you
forward or giving you support.
(24:04):
So it's definitely somethingthat got me, got me thinking in
this direction.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah, because so many of our systems are invisible or
they're visible to a smallgroup but not really talked
about outside of that.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah, and I think, unless we start to see them or
talk about them, like it'sharder to dismantle them or, you
know, or strengthen othersystems that are working.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
What are some of the ways at the Center for Nonprofit
Excellence that you are lookinglike, that you guys are looking
at your systems?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah, well, I think you know this kind of relates
back to your other questionabout sustainable practices,
because I think a shift thatI've noticed, just as we're
coming back from the pandemic,is there was a time when we were
really kind of spreadingourselves in terms of the types
of programming we were offeringand, and with good intention.
(25:06):
You know, we had a lot ofmaterial we wanted to share and
people we were trying to reach.
But I think having theopportunity to pause and be a
little more intentional aboutthe impact that we're trying to
make and being able to I don'tknow, maybe just refine our
focus a little bit, has beenimportant, because I think it
(25:29):
does.
It does also get to this issueof sustainability and you know,
I think it's the practice of,like wanting to say yes to every
single opportunity and and alsoknowing that that can lead to
not just burnout, but it can.
It can just spread us reallythin and that there's also value
(25:49):
and we can get, we can gainenergy by by focusing on, you
know, one or two core things andand allowing those to grow and
evolve, and and then so I thinkI would say our practices are
are just trying to be veryintentional and mindful and and
(26:11):
do a lot of listening and createthose feedback loops, I guess
in our work, and it's also beena great opportunity to just
reconnect and create spaces forother nonprofits to connect with
one another.
You know we talked about theisolation and I think you know
(26:32):
nonprofits it's hard work andthere's a lot, there's a lot of
people are dealing with just inthe work itself.
And so our Center for nonprofits, excellence, you know we really
are trying to nurture thoseopportunities for folks to
connect with one another and,you know, just a place where
they can just be themselves,they can feel, thank you, yeah,
(26:59):
really a chance to, you know,maybe put aside the need to have
to have all the answers and bethe expert and be able to kind
of solve every problem thatcomes up, you know, as a leader
or whatever, but to kind of putthat on hold for a sec and for a
few hours with their peers andto kind of have a chance to
(27:23):
learn.
And it's okay that we were justlearning together, you know,
and supporting and sharing oneanother, so with one another.
That's just what we've beentrying to focus on, because we
realize, like for a lot of folksright now it's kind of.
It's sort of like the basicneeds, what they're asking for
(27:46):
and really wanting.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Yeah, it makes me think about when the pandemic
first happened.
Right, it was like triage forlike a year, trying to figure
out all the new things that werehappening, but I think that so
many of us did learn together.
There were so many things tolearn at the same time, and so
there are kind of these likesystems and people are
(28:10):
interested in learning together.
And I was so interested by theworkshop that you did on mental,
mental health and wellness andhave been going very deep down
that that research there's.
So there's so much out therethat there are studies that have
(28:33):
been done at the academic levelthat are related to you know
how like business structuresthat can be created that can
decrease people's stress andhave a positive effect on their
their well-being and theirfamily life.
And one of those studies wasdone with the gap, with all
these gap employees, and whatthey did was they just
(28:56):
standardized to their schedules.
So instead of having schedulesthat were changing every single
week and you could kind of becalled in at any time, they
started having regular schedulesand I think it was like a, you
know, at least a 48 hour windowof notice if you were going to
be called in to work and itincreased sales by like 5%.
(29:19):
And then they did you know,stress and different kinds of
tests and it helped people'sblood pressure to go down and
all of these really interestingbenefits.
And I think in shift workpeople don't really think about
what an impact a changingschedule has like, especially on
parents.
(29:40):
That's just one of them,there's so many.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Yeah, well, it kind of goes back to that, that piece
about interconnection, andwe're not, you know, our mind,
body, well-being it's.
We're not different, differentpieces, we're like we're whole,
you know.
And so having having a broader,more expansive understanding or
approach, even in the workplace, I think, has some real
(30:07):
implications on how we cansustain ourselves and our work.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
We were talking earlier about.
You know budgeting and financeand pay, but also, I think if
the leadership is so far removedfrom the people who are working
, it becomes easier to makedecisions where you don't really
understand the implications ofthem.
Like, we have all these workers, we need to have the store
(30:37):
filled, or you know, we needpeople to be working all these
different hours and so they justhave to be able to figure out
how to come in when we need themand to see the person as this
commodity basically.
But really, I think if you havemore of a connection between
people who are making thesekinds of decisions and then the
reality of what it is like tolive within those decisions,
(31:01):
that helps to create fairersystems.
Well said so, are there anykind of trends that you have
been seeing recently that wehaven't talked about that are
specifically related toleadership, development and
collaboration?
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Well, I think we did touch on it briefly, but really
just like this thirst forconnection with one another by
leaders, I think you know thatsense of maybe just isolation,
having folks that they can turnto to talk about the challenges
that they have or even justcelebrate with one another.
(31:43):
I think a trend might be that inthe past, you know, in the past
and I don't want to downplaythe importance of places where
you can learn importantmanagement practices and good,
solid information and input forhow we do our work well, but I
think in the past, trainingopportunities or leadership
(32:06):
development, there was anemphasis on on the content, on
the presentation of information,kind of downloading of
information, and I think wherewe see leadership development
really having more confidence incentering that interpersonal
experience, the network buildingand really creating I don't
(32:32):
want to use the word like safespaces, but really because
there's so many differentdynamics, you know, in any field
.
But in nonprofits there's likefunding, environment and
landscape and is therecompetition?
Is there, how do we positionourselves, you know, with
different organizations and solike trying to really nurture an
(32:52):
environment where people can bein relationship and build trust
and really have that as kind ofa starting point.
So I don't know if I hope it'snot a trend.
I have it as a development andhelping these be more effective
and stronger, but definitely Ithink just seeing more and more
(33:16):
acknowledgement of the value ofthat in developing leaders for
our communities.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
And helping too with the filtering of what actually
belongs in this organizationversus.
You know, maybe this project isamazing, but it actually
there's another organizationthat would fit better, and so
it's not like the work doesn'tget done, it's just spread out
across everybody's differentexpertise.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
And hard to have those relationships during COVID
.
You know, across organizationsand as you know very well, so
much churn and transition ofstaffing and positions and so
just really rebuilding a lot ofthat, and executive directors
too.
So many, yeah, yeah, so many.
(34:05):
So just an opportunity torebuild awareness of the great
work that's happening down thestreet or, you know, across the
way, for even for thosepotential partnerships or
opportunities to align.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Yeah, I've always noticed when I go to a
presentation, I alwaysappreciate if the presenter
gives some time for me to meetthe people around me, because
I'm not necessarily the personwho's going to go to a thing and
then really get into deepconversations, because I am kind
of introverted.
But if it's a part of the thingand it's like you know, get
(34:44):
into a group of three and sharewhat you do and kind of connect
with each other, yeah, it's justwonderful and I know that's
always a part of the workshopsthat you do.
There's some kind of breakoutsessions where we get to talk to
each other.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Yeah, we definitely aim to have that, have that
opportunity for folks.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Well, if folks are listening and they want to
connect with you or with theCenter for Nonprofit Excellence,
what is the best way for themto do that?
Speaker 2 (35:16):
A great way is to visit the Community Foundation
for Monterey County's websiteand that's at cfmcoorg forward
slash, cne.
That would be the best way, andwe do have our Leadership
Institute for 2024, will bedoing recruitment for
(35:37):
participants this fall, and Ialso have a book discussion
series coming up that I'll befacilitating on that equity book
that I mentioned and that'sopen to all nonprofits in our
community, and great way to justdig into that topic a little
further as well as get to meetsome of the peers Is there
(35:58):
anything that you wanted to talkabout that we didn't get the
chance to yet.
I was curious just to hear about.
You know a lot of the work Isee you doing around pay, equity
living wage, helpingorganizations make shifts.
Do you have any like advice forsomeone who's just kind of
(36:22):
starting to think about thatprocess?
We talked a little bit aboutboards and the role they play
but I don't know if do you haveany just words of wisdom for you
know, taking it from kind ofthese aspirations and then
helping folks get started.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah, I actually just helped someone with this, so
I'm like all about it.
So what we did?
All the information can seemkind of squirrely, especially if
you're dealing with grantfunding and allocating, and it
can get sort of like tied intothat whole process and sometimes
(37:05):
there's independent contractorsand employees and all these
different things.
So what we started by doing wasjust listing all the employees
names and their job titles.
And the job titles might beweird or not exactly what
they're supposed to be, but justyou want to start with what you
have.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Kind of an inventory of what's there.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Yeah, so their names, their job titles, if they're
paid hourly or salary, theamount that they're paid, and
then what kinds of benefitsthey're getting if there are
benefits in the organization.
And the first thing is to justtry to standardize across the
(37:50):
different categories ofemployees that you have.
So when I talk about categoriesof employees, one of the types
of categories is whether they'repaid hourly or paid salary, and
so it could be, for example,with benefits, that hourly
employees get certain kinds ofbenefits and salaried employees
(38:11):
get other kinds of benefits, andthat's a pretty pretty, a more
you know, simple kind ofstandardization to try to figure
out is just what are ourbenefits?
Who gets what, making it thesame for everybody.
Who makes these differentcategories?
(38:31):
And then when you're starting tolook at pay to see what kinds
of levels of responsibilitythere are in the organization so
there's probably an executivedirector or maybe it's an
operations director, there'sprobably some kind of
administrative staff, and thenthere's some kind of program
(38:53):
staff, and then withinadministrative and program staff
you might have some managersand then you might have some
other positions that we'll justcall frontline positions, and so
you can compare the pay of themanagers with each other and
you're looking for that pay tobe equitable, and when you're
(39:17):
trying to figure out what isequitable, you can use the fair
pay for Northern Californianonprofits as a great resource
for that.
We have talked about thatbefore.
I think most communityfoundations in California so do
have that.
So if you're somewhere else inthe state you should be able to
(39:40):
access it too, and there's adifferent one for Northern
California and SouthernCalifornia.
And then there's also, you know, because organizations have to
start publishing their pay rates.
In California now you can findpretty good information about
pay on Indeed or just differentwebsites.
(40:01):
I know a lot of nonprofitorganizations have some
crossover with city and countyjobs and staff, so you can
always look up those jobdescriptions.
They're always available andthe pay rates are always
available, and so you can startto see how the pay in your
organization is comparing withother similar kinds of
(40:23):
organizations.
And that's where you start tomake your plans for what you
want to do in the future.
And typically the first place westart is just with dealing with
any inequities that areunintentionally a part of the
system that currently exists.
So maybe there's a managerwho's paid way below all the
(40:46):
other managers and it's notbecause they don't have, you
know, the similar level of jobresponsibilities.
It's just they've been with theorganization for a long time
and never got a raise because ofthings that happens, you know,
or someone was hired in to a newposition this happens all the
(41:08):
time and you had to pay them acertain amount in order to be
able to hire them.
But that means that they're nowpaid above a whole bunch of
other people that work in theorganization.
So it's trying to create a planto bring everybody up to that
same amount and then creatingyour systems for ongoing like
(41:31):
looking at what's happening withpay and reviewing it and
creating the plan for next year.
So that can look like decidingon percentage merit increases or
cost of living adjustments thathappen annually.
You can tie performance reviewsto raises or you can have them
(41:54):
be completely separate and doperformance reviews at one time
of year and raises at anothertime of year.
You can come up with kind of aplan for bonuses or, if you have
cash influxes, what you'regoing to do with those.
And then another thing to thinkabout this is like there's more
(42:15):
in the later end of things,when there is financial
stability, is having differentsavings.
I call them savings buckets,but like if you want to be able
to provide paid parental leave,then deciding how much you want
to contribute to that and havingsome savings that's already
(42:35):
available for that use.
Or if you have a paid time offpolicy, having a savings bucket
so that if someone leaves andthey have a large balance, then
you're able to pay it out andit's not like a scramble to try
to find the funds for it.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Yeah, I love how, how practical and systematic that
is.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Yeah, I find it really helps to just get it out
where you can see it, instead ofand I use a spreadsheet and
keep it really simple like withjust the main pieces of
information in it.
So it's not because sometimes Ithink executive directors or
(43:20):
boards will try to look throughthis information, but it will
come out as more of like anarrative in a longer like word
document and it'll tell a storyabout how the decision was made
and it'll have all theinformation in it, or some of it
(43:40):
will be missing, and but if youjust look at it in that kind of
spreadsheet form, it's easierto see where the discrepancies
might be and to be able toaddress them.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
Thank you for all the support that you can bring for
people around that and ifanybody needs help with that,
I'm happy to help.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
The other part of it is that it's kind of like
activating for the nervoussystem to look at all the
numbers and the people andthere's like fairness is wrapped
up in it and that people canfeel judgment or stress or and
(44:24):
often the executive directorspay, as like in this list too
and so there's a part of it thatis also giving yourself time to
process, to look at it and thenmaybe take a little bit of time
away and then look at it againand to have a really clear
(44:45):
communication plan around anychanges that you're making.
Because if you just keeptalking to the staff every tiny
step of the way of yourdecision-making process, that
actually is more stressful forthem than if you work through
the issues first and then kindof present a plan and you can
(45:06):
ask for feedback on that plan Ifyou want to.
There's a good process that youwould want to have in place for
that, but I can see itsometimes gets really squirrely
and difficult for people if theydon't know what is going to
happen with their pay.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Yeah, so many different layers and levels to
that process change process.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
Yeah, thank you for the question and thank you so
much for joining me, it wasAnnice.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
it's been really fun, thank you.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
Hit subscribe to know when the next episodes come out
.
And, if you're feeling generous, please leave a review.
Reviews help other like-mindedfolks find their way to this
resource.
If something you heard todaybrought a smile to your face or
a spark to your heart and you'dlike to connect with me, there
(46:01):
are a few ways to do that.
One is my newsletter, where Iput most of my time and energy
when I'm not working withclients or with my family or
working on this podcast Sorry,social media.
The newsletter is a mix of reallife stories, tips and tricks
(46:22):
and, of course, updates onwhat's happening with the
podcast.
Whenever something's going onwith me or in my business, it
always comes out there first.
Another resource that I have foryou is my guide to doing work
differently.
This guide takes you throughfour inquiries into how you can
(46:43):
build a more sustainable andequitable work environment for
yourself and your team.
It's a great place if you'relooking for somewhere to get
started.
Last, if you've got a burningquestion, a comment or a
situation you'd like my eyes on,you can email me.
All those links are in the shownotes.
(47:04):
Take care, Brave Soul.
Catch you next time.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.