Episode 30- Unlocking the Mind: Exploring the Potential of Psychedelics and Mental Health

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, and we're back with another episode of the
podcast.
In this Kirs, and I talk aboutpsychedelics, the benefits.
We'll go into some studies Andeven we go into the set and
setting and you know, if you areinterested in trying out the
psychedelic experience foryourself, so sit back and enjoy

(00:23):
the show.
Be the machine Out, good dogsor assholes, man, all right.

(00:45):
All right, we're live.
We're going to go live now.
We're good.
Fuck you Ready.
Okay, we're live with anotherfucking episode, number two baby
Awesome podcast.
So anything cool happen overthe last few weeks.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Since the last time we uh, that one took concert.
That's about it.
Would you go see?
bad omens was the headliner.
It was fucking awesome MetalDude they were.
They were badass, that's metal.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
Fuck yeah, like we were talking about this before
we started recording.
My last concert was dying fetus.
White chapel, revocation umspite, which is like this gnarly
intense hardcore band like justIn your face.
Violent Like the dude was allabout uh Mosh and being violent

(01:36):
in the mosh pit, like it was anintense.
So Fallujah played, but like wewere talking about the whole
drive home, i was like Icouldn't hear shit.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
Oh my God, your fucking death was was awful.
They had this shit turn up loud, this, this show.
I see my first wall of death.
I tell you that, yeah, i'venever seen one before.
I've seen circle.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
Where did you go?

Speaker 2 (01:58):
I went to Memphis man , okay, memphis, yeah, it was a,
it was mingle wood hall, dude.
They fucking small venue likeall standing like nice And, dude
, they opened up that fuckingwall of death right beside me.
It was insane, dude, did youget involved?
I had Amber with me.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
I didn't want to lose her So I got to observe I don't
blame you Letting it take partin it.
Here's the thing about I lovemetal But I just and Mosh is
cool and everything.
But then there was a time whereMoshing was just literally kind
of like head banging, kind ofmaybe shoving.
Where now, i don't know, it'sweird, everyone's like kicking
and punching and like they takecause that was the thing they

(02:33):
did in like hardcore shows, likethey were always spin, kicking
and like but people would giveyou room for that.
Where now it's like you go tometal shows and it's just people
I don't know man, they justthey like want to kick and punch
and do all this other crazystuff.
And I mean, i guess some peopleare into that.
But if you want to do that,it's like go do martial arts or

(02:54):
something.

Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, if you actually want to throw down, why?

Speaker 1 (02:57):
not go to fucking jiu-jitsu man.
You're like or something likethat, Like I don't really
understand, But I don't know.
I guess it's the way it is now.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
It's mostly shoving, to be fair.
I mean, I think I think Amberactually got kicked at one point
.
Oh, I couldn't find the fuckingguy who did it.
I actually didn't know what helooked like.
Everything was happening sofast, So this.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
I probably would have been in my early twenties and
one of my this was a metal showI went to.
So there was a place in Detroitcalled Harpo's Right And I
don't know if it's open now, butso they would have a lot of the
hardcore fucking metal showswould go to Harpo's, and the
first time I went there I wasdating this chick, and so it was

(03:38):
me, my younger brother and her.
We saw like devil driver inflames, dude, fuck Yeah, man,
yeah.
And this is back like whendevil driver was just kind of
coming onto the scene becausethey used to be cold chamber,
does, does, for I think his nameis anyway.
So we go there and having agood time.
I don't know where this guycomes totally out of his mind

(03:59):
and he starts like choking thischick I was dating, and so we
get into a fight and I'm like,but dude, like fish, hook my
eyes, so like I ended up havinghis thumb in my eye and we're
tussling in the out of nowhere.
This bouncer came and fuckingbeat this guy's ass and just
dragged him off because, likeyou know, i wasn't, obviously
wasn't starting it, and it justturned into absolute fucking

(04:21):
chaos.
And then, once I was all brokeup, we went back to enjoying the
show.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
Went to fuck.
He just started choking yourgirlfriend like right off the
bat.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, well, you know, some people, when, like,
they're under the influence of adrug, they just have that stare
, that, that blank stare.
Yeah, that's what he had.
And I was like, oh, this guy'slike fucked up, fucked up Yeah.
This guy doesn't know what'sgoing on, and so I think he just
reached for whatever was closeto him and fucking.
Yeah, i mean, if it happenednow, i probably would have just

(04:50):
like hip tossed him or something, send his ass to arm bar and
snap his arm.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yeah, bounce his head off the floor like a basketball
.

Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah, but you know fucking jujitsu.
So okay, so last week we talkedabout dreams, but as we were
talking about dreams,psychedelics kept getting
brought up.
Because dreams and I thinkdreams and psychedelics are like
a perfect companion, becausewhen you're under a psychedelic

(05:20):
experience, it's like you arehaving that waking dream
experience.
And for those who've never hadit, and you know, it's an
incredibly hard thing todescribe when you go into a
psychedelic journey, because andthat's the same way it is with
dreams I had someone reach out,which which is you know, we read

(05:40):
that that, that that dreams andpsychedelics, they go so well
together And a lot of peoplewant to know about psychedelics.
We were taught So before westarted recording.
We were talking about the map,the messenger, right For
psychedelics, and why, i think,for for so many years people

(06:02):
have been kind of turned off?
because for so longpsychedelics have always been
associated with like the fuckinghippies hippie.
Yeah, absolutely Like the hippiecommunity, and you know they've
kind of dominated it because,you know, in the sixties, that
is that's the culture thatembraced psychedelics And they
just started calling themhippies.
So I think, unfortunately, youknow, a lot of people got this

(06:27):
negative connotation of whatpsychedelics are aren't just
based on.
You know, these people who werelike, yeah, man, just work,
just vibing, and like, when theywould describe the experience
they would just use these veryesoteric terms and just shit,
like yeah, and like it's alwayssounded very woo and just like,

(06:47):
you know, crazy man, yeah, Andlike it's easy to dismiss that.
But I think what we're seeingnow is we're seeing messengers
who are not hippies.
Do you know what Michael Pollanis?
I don't.
So Michael Pollan is, i guesshe would be considered a
journalist, but he's usually.
He's written a lot of books.
He's a mainstream guy.

(07:07):
He's been on a lot ofmainstream talk shows, very kind
of square looking, and I wantto say he wrote books about like
food, right Food and travelingand food and stuff like that,
and so this probably was likesix or seven years ago.
He, he dived into the world ofpsychedelics And he, i would say

(07:27):
like he's been one of.
He's been one of the few peoplewho has successfully connected
the world of psychedelics withthe mainstream, and I think
that's what needs to happen.
So when people like me you knowI'm a combat vet, definitely
not a hippie, i'm well spoken, ido my research.
So when people like us talkabout psychedelics, i think

(07:50):
people listen more becausethey're like Oh, this, they're
explaining it in terms that Ithat makes sense, like there's
science behind what they'resaying too, and they're like
backing up what they're saying.
And I think I think that we'rethat's the change we're seeing.
I mean, i think I think youngergenerations also like are you

(08:11):
considered Gen Z or millennial?
What do you consider 98?

Speaker 2 (08:14):
I don't even fucking know what class I fall in man.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
I think you'd be a Gen Z year.
Don't call me that, sorry man,it's not an insult.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
It's not an insult.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
Look, it's just.
It's just like that's how wechop each other up into like
social groups.
It's like you're a boomer, ican't talk to you And it's like,
okay, boomer, okay, boomer, Ithink I'm a millennial.
Technically I'm like I'm like onthe cusp Cause I was born in
eight, i was born in December of81.
And I guess it depends on whoyou ask, who's a fucking

(08:45):
millennial?
So I think I'm a millennial,but anyway, i think it starts
with the Gen X and and forward,where our generations don't
really see the problem withpsychedelics, like you know, i
think, for all of our faults asgenerations as others will point
out like I think we tend to bea little more up of minded,

(09:07):
right, and I think we're livingat a time now, with technology,
this like fucking, just absolutedeluge of information that
we're bombarded with every dayhas caused people to become
really depressed because now,like, we compare ourselves with
these people online who livethese very textbook, fucking

(09:30):
awesome lives They look great,you know like they're, which is
mostly bullshit, but it's hardto know what's real and not.
So I think we're seeing a lotmore people feeling isolated and
depressed And I mean, let's behonest, man, pharmaceuticals are
not work, they're not effect.
I mean they might be effectivefor some people, but, like who

(09:52):
wants to have to take a drugtheir entire life?
I don't think people want tohave to take something their
whole fucking life And I thinkthat's kind of like this turning
point for psychedelics, like.
So I think it's really awesometime to be alive right now
because of psychedelics andbecause it's entering like the
mainstream discussion.

(10:12):
I want to say right now whatOregon and Colorado are two
states that have and we'lldouble check this, but I believe
they've decriminalized it alltogether, because I know, in my
at least in Colorado, they'redoing a ton of research with
MDMA, psilocybin, on combat vetsAnd it's just an overwhelming

(10:37):
majority of combat vets have hadvery positive experiences.
So what they'll do is they'lltake what's called resistant or
I was sort of looking for likeresistant to like traditional
forms of therapy which Iprobably would have been
considered.
So those are always the idealcandidates for this kind of

(10:57):
psychedelic treatment and almostevery fucking time you get
these very positive results withpsychedelics.
So I want to start.
I got we got a couple of thingshere I'm going to start reading
from.
So this excerpt I'm going toread comes from the psychedelic
experience, a manual that waswritten by Timothy Leary, ralph

(11:19):
Menser and Richard Alpert.
So here's I asked you earlierif you knew Timothy Leary was
and you didn't know.
So Timothy Leary was apsychologist out of Harvard
Actually, all these guys workedout of Harvard And Richard
Alpert would eventually becomeRam Dass And Ram Dass was a guru

(11:43):
, right.
So he had these crazypsychedelic experiences And he,
he got what he needed from himand he never touched
psychedelics again because hethen learned how to get into
that transcendental statethrough meditation.
He got into like Buddhism,hinduism, stuff like that,
timothy Leary.
He became sort of like Hmm,what's the word?

(12:09):
he started out with really goodintentions and he became this
very public figure ofpsychedelics And but the problem
was is he went way overboardwith it and he kind of became a
character caricature of himself.
So he became really easy todismiss, like oh, this guy's
just gone fucking crazy.
So that kind of hurtpsychedelics, right.

(12:31):
And so anyway, i want to readan excerpt from the opening
chapter because I kind of wantto talk about the psychedelic
experience, like what to expect,and then we can kind of go into
some of the actual science orwhat, yeah, yeah, the science,

(12:52):
like we've got some studies herewe were talking about before
the beginning that will kind ofgo over, just to just to let all
of you know that like thisisn't just bullshit, it's not
stuff we're pulling out of ourass.
This is stuff that's beingseriously studied by serious
institutions, by seriousscientists and researchers.
So okay, here we go.

(13:13):
A psychedelic experience is ajourney to new realms of
consciousness.
The scope and content of theexperience is limitless, but its
characteristic features are thetranscendence of verbal
concepts, of space, timedimensions, and of the ego or
identity.
Such experiences of enlargedconsciousness can occur in a

(13:35):
variety of ways Sensorydeprivation, yoga exercises,
discipline, meditation,religious or aesthetic ecstasy,
or spontaneously.
Most recently, they have becomeavailable to anyone through the
ingestion of psychedelic drugssuch as LSD, psilocybin,
mescaline, dmt.
Of course, the drug does notproduce the transcendent

(13:57):
experience.
It merely acts as a chemicalkey.
It opens the mind, freeze thenervous system of its ordinary
patterns and structures.
The nature of the experiencedepends almost entirely on set
and setting.
So set and setting right.
We were talking about thatbefore.

(14:18):
Now, what's interesting in thereis everything that he writes
about.
Let me go back and open it back.
Up is yes, so when you're inthat psychedelic state, right,
you like.
Your brain is no longerconfined to it's normal patterns

(14:44):
.
So, like when we're conscious,when we're not under the
influence of psychedelics, ouramygdala is making sure that we
are experiencing reality in away that doesn't make us go
crazy, or else we'd be gettingall this input right.
That'd be like Oh my God, ican't figure out any of the
stuff And that kind of likepsychedelics seem to open up

(15:04):
that pathway And you know,because they stayed in there,
there's other ways to achievethat kind of like Ultra
perception.
Yeah, ultra perception, expandedconsciousness, you know you can
, you can meditate, but then,like, you can get direct access
through psychedelics, right, Andlike, suddenly you're having

(15:25):
the same mystic experience as ayogi who's trained for fucking
their whole life to meditatethemselves into that state.
And so you know, you're withlike psychedelics.
You're right there, man, like30 minutes in you are, you are
into that experience.
It's funny because so I didn'treally thought about

(15:46):
psychedelics most of my life.
So what really like tripped offmy whole like path into wanting
to know more about psychedelics.
So, like, i got out of theMarine Corps at the end of 2013,
right, so my self, max wife, we, we get to Missouri, find a

(16:09):
place, we move and get settledin.
Well, she was, you know, she'sa hippie And she wanted to tie
into her frickin hippie peopleand whatever.
And so I was like, okay, youknow.
I was like, yeah, i fine, youknow, but you know, i understand
, i'm like, barely, you're outof the Marine Corps And we get
invited to go to this musicfestival, bird bird fest in

(16:30):
Arkansas.
It's in Ozark, in the OzarkNational Forest, at a place
called the bird bird AdventureCenter.
Yeah, yeah, well.
So I was like, okay, let's,let's do that, let's go.
So I didn't know to expect.
You know, i get there andthere's like fucking thousands
of people at the show And it's acamp, so we're going to be

(16:54):
camping there for the night andI'm like I'm still very marine,
like I'm fucking hostile, likeI'm not hostile, but I'm tense.
I'm surrounded by all thesepeople.
I don't know Like I wasliterally in a combat zone just
not less than two years beforeAnd I'm kind of thinking there's

(17:14):
gonna be fights.
You know, like I have all theseweird things going through my
head.
So, as the day progresses intothe evening, this fucking guy
comes around and he's sellingmushrooms.
So we're like, all right, man,let's fucking get mushrooms.
And I didn't think about it, soI ate mine, and I was like All
right, whatever.

(17:34):
So, as, as, as it's, the timeis progressing I think it was
about 30 minutes in like I feelit hit me And when mushrooms
first hit you, if, like, you'renot used to it, so like it'll
have some weird physical effects, like your neck will tighten up
and like you kind of like likeyour jaw kind of tightens up a
little bit, and so this ishappening, but I'm trying to

(17:56):
play it off.
I'm like cool, cool, don'tfreak out like because?
so in the initial stages of apsychedelic experience, there's
turbulence And it's it's whenthey initially hit right.
They shut everything down inyour brain.
That's where most people freakout, right?

Speaker 2 (18:16):
That's where we talked about last year.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
So people tend to freak out because it's in that
first 30 to 40 minutes where allof a sudden they're just
getting all this sensory inputAnd you, i guess you feel like
you're dying.
I don't know why, but it'salmost universally felt like I'm
dying, like, oh my God, i'mdying.
You're not, obviously, but youkind of have to just work

(18:41):
through that and once you workthrough that turbulence, you
just you blast off into thisreally, really cool space.
And so I got through that Andjust as I passed that everyone
decided because we were like agroup of friends Everyone
decided that it was time to goup and watch, watch the music,
because you know that a bunch ofbands are playing, and I

(19:04):
remember this like prettydistinctly.
So we start walking up thispath and it's this really wide
dirt road path going up to thestage.
And we're walking up this pathand there's like there's like
hundreds of people And you knowthese guys and girls are waving
like banners and colorful lights.

(19:24):
And I remember like myperception of all was just very
slow, like it was like this slowwave of motion, and I just
remember thinking how beautifulit was and how amazing it was.
It's like I could almost seethe energy of everyone there.
And the crazy thing was is againremember, like I'm like just

(19:46):
out of the Marine Corps, i'mstill in this very kind of like
hostile mindset and people werejust coming up to me and hugging
me And I never once feltthreatened.
And I was.
I was having a really good time.
Like this crust had busted.
That I didn't even reallyunderstand was there because I'd

(20:08):
been a rehab 30 day intenseinpatient rehab, counseling, cpt
, you know, cognitive processingtherapy, like all this shit
I've gone through.
And in that moment I justremember thinking, holy shit, i
found it like what is this?
And it was.

(20:29):
It was psilocybin, mushrooms,man, it was psychedelics And as
that night continued, it waslike it was one of the most
profound experiences because itstarted this journey into
wanting to understand more aboutwhat I just went through.
I'm like, i'm like, how, how,how can I have one dose of a

(20:52):
mushroom like this and have thisincredibly positive outcome
that started me on my pathway towriting, going back to school,
going like being morecompassionate?
So this is, this is fucked upright.
So before this, i was one ofthose guys like I would do
fucked up shit driving on theroad like they're like dead

(21:14):
animals and I wouldintentionally just run them over
again to fuck with my ex like,and it was fucking awful right,
it's terrible.
I know I got a minute though,like because and I was kind of
detached from that compassionThat one fucking experience,
dude, it changed all of thatlike, not even a little like a

(21:39):
complete 180, to where you justyou suddenly see life as
something that is very likesacred, because you know, when
you're in the military,especially like a combat arms,
especially in the Marine Corps,infantry, they do what they can
to train that out of you like,and then you go to combat and
you're like these people are notpeople, these aren't humans,

(22:02):
these are fucking things thatI'm killing because they want to
kill me.
And so it's like it's, it's not, that's not easy to shed off,
that's not an easy.
That's why so many guys get outof the Marine, the military,
and ultimately commit suicidebecause, like, you're still
wrestling with them, thatmentality, but then you're

(22:22):
suddenly you're surrounded bycivilians who have no concept of
what violence is, let alonecombat, and so you feel very
isolated And after thisexperience I just I knew, i knew
I'd found that thing, and itwas suicide of mushrooms, man.

(22:43):
So I began this journey oftrying to find out, like, why it
worked, why, you know, whyaren't, why isn't this being
more widespread?
we used, like what the fuck'sgoing on in our society, that
there's, there's a natural thatyou can get almost anywhere in

(23:06):
nature I can have, and it canleave like such profound effects
, you know, and, and so, yeah,it started me on this whole
pathway into psychedelics.
And then I had subsequentexperiences, and each experience
and it was like you learnsomething new about you,
something else You can dive intolike your past, and you don't

(23:30):
really have any feeling about it.
Right, it's, it's reallyinteresting.
So You know, like I said, istarted doing some, some more
research on it, and so weactually have a couple of
studies here.
Maybe you should bring these upright now, sure man, just to
dive into it.
Actually, before we dive intothe studies, let me see here,

(23:55):
maybe we should Kind of stayalong with the experience,
because now you're a nurse, ohyeah, right, so I mean, at any
point along in your, yourstudies and journeys, like, do
they even ever touch on anythinglike this?

Speaker 2 (24:16):
Oh yeah, it's a schedule one narcotic, that's it
.
That's, that's it.
No, dude.
I mean they talked about,obviously, alternative medicines
were brought up And a lot oftimes it was just the basics of
like, ok, if they want to takethis herb, then it's going to
interact with this, like it wasbasically just medication.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
So it was like mechanistic in nature, like the
mechanics of it, st John's Awardinteracts with this medicine.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
You know, don't make them, don't let them take that
together.
Like it was pretty simple, andI'm going to go ahead and get
this out of the way.
Since I am considered alicensed nurse, i'm going to say
I don't condone the use of, youknow, narcotics, you know, but
let's, let's fucking talk aboutit anyway.
Yeah, let's fucking go.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Well, and it's funny because I think it's more and
more, medical professionals arelearning, you know, because
there's a lot, there's a lot ofthings like doctors don't learn,
and there's a lot of thingsnurses just don't learn.
And I mean it's unfortunate AndI get it, because there's just
so much, there's so much to know, but it's a shame that

(25:18):
psychedelics aren't taken moreserious like that.
I think it is now like you have.
You have organizations likeMAPS, the multi, multi
disciplinary association ofpsychedelic studies I think
that's what it stands for.
But like they're anorganization full of scientists
and researchers and you know,and they've been fighting this

(25:39):
fight for a good long time.
But MAPS kind of worries mebecause like I feel like they're
trying to they're trying tolike what sort of look for?
they're trying topharmaceuticalize psychedelics,
like you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
Like they're not going to let you have it unless
they can make money off of it.

Speaker 1 (25:56):
Man Right, That's kind of the right, like they're
trying to isolate the componentsand make something, and it's
like, why don't like?
that's the thing always cracksme up about.
That is like you don't need toisolate anything.
Like you need to eat thefucking mushroom, you got to
have everything that's in it,because that's you know.
Everything in that workstogether, you know.

(26:18):
But so that's too bad that theydon't talk about it.
But I guess I understand why.
Because it's just, even thoughthere's an ungodly amount, of
research.

Speaker 2 (26:29):
Well, do you ever think farmers may be afraid of
it because it is effective?

Speaker 1 (26:33):
Yes, I mean yes, because here's the thing.
So most antidepressants are.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
SSRIs Right Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors
Yes.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
But they sometimes take weeks to take effect.
Oh yeah, yet with one high doseof psilocybin, you it's
immediate.
It's immediate and noticeable.
And so the question is, why,like why, do pharmaceuticals
take so long to take effect?
It's probably because they'renot hitting the spots they're

(27:04):
supposed to be hitting, wherepsilocybin is, and in almost all
psychedelic LSD, psilocybin,mdma I don't know if it's a, i
guess it's an.
I don't know if it's in ahallucinogen, though, but you
know ecstasy Not, but it does.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
You know they are using it in research with
positive effects, especiallywith, like, combat vets, and I'm
not going to actuallyunderstand a whole lot about it,
but I know like obviously, theconcept of half lives and like
how medication gets integratedinto your system Like some drugs
do take a longer time to reachthat chemical balance that they
are hoping to get.
So that's probably the maincause.

(27:42):
Now am I saying they're alleffective?
No, i see countless people onantidepressants who are fucking
depressed.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
And sometimes it makes it worse.

Speaker 2 (27:50):
It does have that possible side effect.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yes, which is crazy because and then you look at
psilocybin and classicpsychedelics which have an
instantaneous effect on ourbrain, you know, and it's like
literally creating these newneural pathways And that you
know where.
Sometimes, you know, with thesepharmaceutical drugs they take

(28:16):
a I don't know a bit longer Andsometimes they don't produce the
results you want And there havebeen cases where people get on
antidepressants and then theycommit suicide.
Like it's crazy, like where,with psychedelics, almost every
time someone has a very intensepsychedelic experience.
They it's almost universal.

(28:39):
Like they see life in adifferent way, they appreciate
their life in a different way,they appreciate people in a
different way, like it's likethis holistic thing that you
experience with psychedelics.
Now here's a little.
I got some little handy dandystuff here.
So everything that I read orreference, i'm going to make

(29:01):
sure to put a link in the showdescription, so anybody who
wants to do their own researchon this, they will have access
to everything.
We've talked about The studiesif you want to look over the
studies or anything like that.
So this comes from a volunweterand cometer And they wrote that

(29:24):
in.
Well, it'll be in the shownotes, but this is what they
said about psychedelic research.
By 1965, there were more than1000 published clinical studies
that reported promisingtherapeutic effects in over
40,000 subjects.
Lsd, psilocybin and,sporadically, ketamine have been

(29:45):
reported to have therapeuticeffects on patients with anxiety
and obsessive compulsivedisorders, depression, sexual
dysfunction and alcoholaddiction And to relieve pain
and anxiety in patients withterminal cancer.
That's fucking insane.
So by 1965, they had alreadyhad like over 1000 studies that

(30:06):
said, hey, this is safe andeffective for people to use And
this is really good.
But what do they do, theyfucking?
they put it as a schedule one.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
But wait, matt, for those who don't know what's the
risk of addiction.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
Very little.
It's like it's very little.
Actually there's no cases ofanyone being addicted to
psychedelics.
It's too intense, like here'sthe thing You go through a
psychedelic experience You'remost people don't want to have
that again.
You know, even if it's a goodtrip, it's very taxing on the

(30:41):
brain, man.
It's like it's such an intenseexperience.
Now I will say this I don't wantto be, i don't want to be
completely biased.
So I learned this when I washanging out with this hippie
crowd.
Right, there are people that doabuse it and they use it
completely wrong.
Like I was around people thatare doing like 20 hits of acid
at one time And it's like JesusChrist, right, it's like why,

(31:04):
why the fuck are you doing that?
Like it never made sense to me,but I realized these people
were just, they weren't usingpsychedelics for, like, the
reasons I would use them, youknow, because when I have my own
little psychedelic experience,i like I make a whole day of it,
all right.
So there's a really interestingbook.

(31:26):
It's called The PsychedelicExplorers Guide, written by Dr
James Fadiman, and basicallyit's a book for people who want
to kind of have a betterunderstanding of the experience
of tripping, and it's also agood book for people to read who
want to be like responsibleguides.

(31:46):
Because remember last last showI told you like it if you do
psychedelics with like people,you have to be around people you
truly trust.
You can't be around people thatwill fuck with you because
it'll ruin the experience Andthat's why you're set in.
Setting are so important Andthat's what this book talks
about So like.
So I'm referencing ThePsychedelic Explorers Guide

(32:10):
right now.
So, set the set is thepreparation for your session,
right Like.
So you decide okay, i'm goingto have, i'm going to have this
psychedelic experience.
So like, a day beforehand youprep, like you kind of get into
the mind space.
And then here this is what hesays ideally on the first day,

(32:32):
stay quiet and unhurried,reserve time for self reflection
, spending a portion of thepreparation day in nature if you
can be outside.
Set aside the second day allday for the session.
So like, say, you're going totrip on a Saturday, okay, now,
maybe on that Friday.
You just kind of detachyourself from everything, you
think about it, you centeryourself, get into a good
headspace, and that's kind ofwhat he's saying.
I get, everyone is not going todo that And that's fine.

(32:54):
So, like say, it's the same day, you do the same thing, maybe
just on a Saturday.
You're like, okay, i gotnothing going on, i'm going to
have this experience.
So I'm going to spend the firsthalf of the day, i'm going to
hang out, i'm just going to, I'mgoing to no electronics, none
of that.
Don't do anything that's goingto rattle your mind up or

(33:14):
influence you.
Watch the news, dude.
Don't watch this Fucking.
Don't go on social media.
Like, don't do any of that shit.
Like, i think it helps to seethe psychedelic experience as
something spiritual, which isweird for me Because I'm not a
spiritual person.
But when it comes topsychedelics, it is a spiritual

(33:34):
experience.
It's as close to, i think,anybody will ever have to, a
spiritual experience.
So, like a Christian, if theyhave a psychedelic experience,
they're going to probably seeJesus, they're probably going to
feel closer to their, to thatyou know.
Or for a Muslim does it?
or you know a Jewish person,and I think that's a good thing.

(33:56):
I think that's the thing withpsychedelics.
We're talking about people whoare always like I'm afraid to
lose control And it's like well,but what are you really
controlling right now?
I think you know, pop cultureand media has really painted
psychedelics in this reallyweird light because of fucking
you know the way that people are, you know they're not going to

(34:18):
be able to see the light.
It's really paintedpsychedelics in this really
weird light because of fuckinghippies.
Because there's this likepeople think that you take
psychedelics, you're going to gocrazy, which is bullshit.
There's and we'll get intothose studies that discuss that,
why it is bullshit.
But I think a lot of people seeor hear second hand or third

(34:42):
hand accounts of people'spsychedelic experiences And
they're like, oh, i don't wantto do that.
I don't want to lose control.
Like that's the num I promiseyou.
You ask a person why they'venever tried it And that's almost
the same response you'll getfrom every fucking person.
I don't want to lose control.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
But it's like They don't go home and drink a whole
fucking dirty pack and beblackout.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
Yeah, and they're pissing in their pants or doing
something, something crazy, andit's like you've lost dude,
you've lost control.
Or you smoke cigarettes or youdrink and coffee, and it's like
you know you drink too muchcoffee.
You're going to be fuckingjittery And like, well, you've
lost control, right Shakingwhile I beat my wife, absolutely
.

Speaker 2 (35:19):
Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 (35:20):
Yeah.
So it's like it's funny, likethe reasonings wipe people like
they don't want to lose controlAnd it's like, okay, question
one, what do you think you'recontrolling?
The second question is islosing control a bad thing?

Speaker 2 (35:35):
I think control is a perception in the beginning.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yes, I mean so 100% agree with it because, yeah,
it's like when people say theywant, they're afraid to lose
control.
It's like, well, i mean likethat, i want to ask them, but I
don't want to, i don't want tobe that guy, because I kind of
get what they're saying Right.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
They're just saying they're scared, like, and that's
okay because Are they afraid ofwhat they'll say or what
they'll do once they're in thatstate?
That's a good question.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
I mean, i think I think a lot of people think
they're going to go crazy.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
Because I feel like your, your lumping psychedelics
together, but I feel like, basedon what I've heard about
mushrooms, what I've heard aboutothers, I think you'd be a lot
more at risk with stuff likeacid or Well maybe.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
But see, when I say classic psychedelic I'm, i'm
mescaline.
Lsd, psilocybin because LSD andpsilocybin it's the same
pathways, the chemicals aredifferent but like it's the same
pathway, lsd, yes, is probablygoing to be way more intense.
I've never done LSD Like I'vemicrodosed it and Yeah, So I get

(36:45):
to elaborate on that at all.
Yeah, so, like this was yearsago I was living at the old
other house that I was cutting.
So I'd gotten a tab of LSD andI was just like, okay, i'm going
to microdose this, i'm going to.
You know, i got a littleblotter, little square piece of
paper and they just drip and onthere.
So I cut it into pieces and this, it was like a fall day,

(37:05):
beautiful.
And I'm like, okay, i'm goingto, i'm going to, i cut it up.
I'm like I'm going to put this.
So I put on my tongue and justlet it.
I just said I forgot about it,swallowed it, whatever.
So I go outside, get myheadphones on, like I started
cutting my, you know, i startcutting firewood.
I get like 45 minutes into itand I fucking stop what I'm
doing Cause I've suddenly kindof feel weird and I put my

(37:30):
chainsaw down and I look up atthe sky and I'm like dude, i'm
like the sky is so fucking blue,like it's so colorful, i'm like
what the fuck is going on?
And then it hit me.
I was like, i'm like I did morethan a microdose.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
So you took LSD in, your first thought was like
yelling, pick up this fuckingchainsaw, Like that was your
well it was like I'll do themicrodose.

Speaker 1 (37:53):
I didn't really think anything was going to happen.
You know, i'm like, cause I hadexperienced with, i had
experienced or experimented with, microdosing mushrooms, so I'd
get those little, those doublezero vegetarian capsules, crush
up some mushrooms and pack themin there.
So it was roughly 500milligrams of psilocybin in a
capsule.
I'd pop one and I didn't feelshit.

(38:15):
So I'm like I'm thinking that'sthe same thing that's going to
happen with this little, thisteeny little, fucking tiny
little tab of acid that I cut upand it must have been a part of
it where a whole lot of the LSDhit Cause.
For the next two hours I justlaid on my grass, stared up at
the sky with my at the time Ihad this Anatolian shepherd,

(38:36):
heathen, and he was just layingthere right with me And I was
like I was looking up the cloudsand I'm like the clouds are
fractals, they're fractalpatterns, they just keep going
And I'm like your dog's talking,like yes yes, they are son.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
Well, it was a really cool experience, yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
But.
But so I can't say I've reallyhad a full on LSD experience but
I'm like I do from from whenI've heard it's a lot more
intense.
Like you get more with LSD.
I guess, from what I've beentold, you get more of the, the
visual right Where someone'slike I'm a, i'm a demon, and
like you see him as a demon,like where mushrooms it's not, i

(39:13):
think it's.
I guess it'd be more of a bodyhigh, um, you know, with, with
the psilocybin you're, it'sgoing to fuck with your, your
perception.
Like when I'm, when I'mtripping, like everything that's
going to be, everything kind oflooks wavy.
It looks wavy, like things arebreathing.
Yes, yeah, it looks like thingsare breathing and wavy and uh,

(39:34):
and I've seen like fingerprintpatterns.
At one point in one of my tripsI was a hawk flying over, like
all these traumas in my past,and it was like in that trip I
was so high above it.
Like in my head I'm thinking,why does this bother me?
Right, and that's the key,because when you come out of

(39:55):
these trips like that stays with, that doesn't go away, like
it's.
I guess when you're you're,you're in that psychedelic state
, you're, your conscious mindand your subconscious mind are
like acting together Andsuddenly you're aware of your

(40:15):
subconscious and it's aware ofyou and everything's aware of
everything.
So there's no barrier, like allon the reality, like it's all
open and you see it all and youfeel it all and you experience
it all.
And when you come out of ityou're like dude, what just
happened?
Like, but it stays with you,right?
You know, like after my initialintense experiences even let me

(40:39):
see, even eight years laterthere's that that experience was
so profound, like much of thathas stuck with me, especially
with like compassion and youknow, like being open and stuff
like that, like I never wouldhave been that way without
psychedelics.
So they just need to fuckinglegalize it All, right, i mean,

(41:05):
let's just be honest.
More on the story, yeah, okay,so that's so.
The set is like kind ofpreparing yourself for that
experience.
What do you want?

Speaker 2 (41:16):
to talk about I know you've mentioned this quite a
bit The other people you'rearound.
do you want to go into thatbefore we do the study?
Well, that's going to be thesetting.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
Okay, absolutely.
So here we go.
So, before you trip like, thisis something else he talks about
as part of your set, and again,this comes from the psychedelic
explorers guide.
He says discussing the range ofpossible experiences in advance
and able the session itself togo more smoothly.

(41:43):
So if you're somebody who'sinterested in doing psychedelics
, it's important to then kind ofunderstand what you might get
yourself into, because I thinkthat's a lot of times that will
trip people up is they've nevertried it And they have no sort
of like, no basis on what likethey're about to get into.
But it's funny because if theyhad, if they had a little

(42:05):
inkling of what, it probablyhelped ease some of that anxiety
that people get when it hits.
So it continues whether you'rea novice or an experienced
voyager, internal experiencesthat may be entirely novel for
you may occur.
So cascading geometric formsand colors, which usually so
that's, you'll see that shitlike, especially with, like

(42:30):
psilocybin and LSD.
Alteration of felt time, whichis for sure, because I like to,
i'm a night tripper, i love thenight, like the night is mine,
like I don't like tripping inthe daytime.
You guys go outside at night,yeah, oh, absolutely, especially
if it's a full moon.
I'll just sit out there thewhole time and just, i'll

(42:51):
probably look like a crazy psychward patient because I'm just
like this is beautiful, i'mcrying and shit, but well,
anyways, like, hours will go byand I'll just sit out there.
And I'll just sit out there andhours will go by and I'll know
I'd like it'll feel like minutes.
You know, i'll start say, like,i take my dose at eight o'clock
, it'll be three in the morningand I'm like, what, like, what,

(43:14):
like, wow, it's already three,like, and then I get two hours
of sleep and I feel amazing thenext day I wake up.
So there's this sort ofalteration of time, finding
yourself in a different reality,as if you'd lived or are living
in another time or place.
I've never had anything likethat.
I imagine, though, you probablycould with like like really

(43:39):
high doses or what.
Well, i've done nine gramsThat's my highest and but I
never felt like I was in someother time or place.
You know what?
I should take that back becauseI was a hawk.
So, yeah, i will.
Yeah, you're in differentrealities, like absolutely, so
I'll just walk all that back.
I mean, in one of my intensetrips I was a hawk flying over

(44:00):
my fucking shit and just flyingover it like like it was nothing
, and also having that internaldialogue of like why did this
stuff bother me before You know?
and it was like the same time Ihad a trip when I realized I
needed to start writing.
Like, even though I had dabbledwith writing throughout my life

(44:23):
, i never once like took itserious, just like whatever dude
, people are just telling me youshould write.
So then I have this crazypsychedelic experience and it
just hit me like a fucking brickwall of I need to start writing
.
And I never stopped And I justso I can't tell you why, but

(44:45):
like it's just one of thosethings that psychedelics will do
, just, it'll get, it'll altereverything about how you think,
about your reality and all thatgood stuff.
So, yeah, you could findyourself in a different reality,
or if you've lived in anothertime and place, that could
happen, being in a differentbody of either sex.
I've never had that, but Iimagined, like with the DMT or

(45:12):
something or like LSD, likethat'd be a very very tense.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
You're telling me if I took one of those drugs I
could potentially look down andsee that I had tits.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
You're telling me that?
No, i don't think so, i'mfucking this shit's terrible.
Damn, i turned into a woman.
Fuck Damn.
Becoming an animal, plant ormicroorganism becoming animal.
There you go, there you go.
That was a hawk, and I've heardother people have that kind of

(45:41):
experience, where it wasn't ahawk but they were like an
animal or something, which Ithink that's really interesting,
i just.
I think that shows ourconnection with nature.
You know, take away, take awayour modern society And we are
the same right, like we've.
I mean, we're softer now butlike, essentially, we still have

(46:01):
our caveman brains and we'restill very like and it turned
the water and electricity offinto happens, Right Yeah.
Yeah, we love a lot of killing,a lot of bashing of skulls and
but, but.
But there will be.
It'll even out at some pointlike the chaos won't sue.
But then it's like a tsunamiright, that wave comes in,
fucking chaos, chaos, chaos.

(46:23):
And then it recedes back andthen everything slowly rebuilds.
Experience your own birth.
That's something else that youpossibly the fuck.
Yeah, i've heard of peoplehaving that, but it seems like
you'd have to have like a realhigh nose of LSD or DMT or
something Cause again.
I've had nine grams ofmushrooms.
That's my highest dose Andthat's a pretty fucking high

(46:44):
dose, and I never it was reallyintense.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
There's almost two intense, but I never like so
it's like one of the highestdoses you've ever heard of.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
I think Paul Stamets.
Paul Stamets is a a mycologistand he's a big proponent of of
psychedelics.
He's got a really gooddocumentary called Fantastic
Fungi on Netflix Really reallygood.
Michael Pollins on it.
I want to say he did like 12 orfit Maybe he did like 12 or 15
or 20 something.
They did a super high dose.
Yeah, he said he ended up in atree and what?

(47:19):
Yeah, yeah, he said he had asuper intense experience.
So I would imagine Jesus.
Yeah, okay, let me see here.
Now I want to get onto thesetting.
Okay, let me, let me go overhere.
I'm on the Kindle.
I fucking hate the Kindle.
I hate it, dude.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
Fuck you Amazon.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
Fuck you, amazon.
So let's go to setting here,because setting is what you
mentioned earlier about havingthe right people.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
I know you've you've hard done that quite a bit.

Speaker 1 (47:50):
So I was like I don't want you pass that up You know,
okay Again.
So this is for people who areinterested in psychedelics.
Maybe you want to have thatexperience and you don't know
who to talk to, right?
So we just went over set right.
Sets like your mindset goinginto the trip, right?
Let's summarize that So set.
So set and setting areincredibly important for the

(48:11):
So the set will be yourintentions going to the
experience, understanding whatyou might experience and things
like that.
The setting is your physicalenvironment.
So a median environment.
Let me see here.
All that is necessary for asafe journey with infinite

(48:33):
possibilities is an uncluttered,comfortable room with a couch
or bed on which the Voyager canrest.
A comfortable chair for theguide If you have a guide with
you, which isn't a bad idea, butagain, that guide has to be
someone who understands what thepsychedelic.
It can't just be like your broAnd then he starts tripping, he

(48:53):
starts fucking with you, likethat's not it, like that ain't
it, that's a no go.
So a chair for your guide andeasy access to a bathroom, which
I guess, depending on thepsychedelic, i've never had,
like, any issues with that.

Speaker 2 (49:08):
It never mess with you like, like your movement or
anything.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
No, no, no, having a variety of soft pills and
blankets on hand is usually agood idea, and that's true
because some people get reallycold.
It's weird Like you're, because, again you gotta remember, your
body is also physicallyreacting Right To like with
mushrooms, like you will have.
A lot of times when I'm under apsilocybin experience I get

(49:35):
weird like nasal stuff goinglike.
I always feel like I have to go, like like that, you know, yeah
, so it goes away.
It's like it's draining.
Yeah, it feels like it'sdraining.
Okay, it's not, but it feelslike it.
But it you just that'ssomething you have to kind of
like deal with, you know, andit's minimal, it's not not that
bad.

(49:56):
So, because some people can getcold, right.
So blankets and having, look,the key is being comfortable,
right, you want to.
You just want to be in acomfortable environment.
And again, you know, a lot ofpeople take psychedelics at
concerts and that's cool.
I had a great time.
I had a great time with myfirst experience at a concert,

(50:16):
but again, it's, it's aboutbeing around the right people,
the right environment.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
See, you know, take that.
you were at a hippie concertwith very chill music.
Now picture you did that, butyou were seeing dying fetus and
white chapel People are fuckingpunching each other.
I don't know if I'd like yeah,they would probably ruin it.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
They would probably ruin it.
What would that have done foryou?
anything, i don't know.
I don't.
That's a good question, becausewhen you are deep in the throes
of a psychedelic experience,you're very easily influenced
manipulated, i guess, but you'revery easily influenced.
That's why, when people aretripping and someone's like, oh

(50:58):
my God, you're fucking youturning into a bug, like they
believe it.
It dude, you believe it, it'sfucking.
That's just because, like again, your brain's defense
mechanisms are all shut down, soit's like you don't have any
defense against that.
So you're freaking out Andthat's a bad person to be around
.
It just so happened to be.

(51:20):
I was with good people that youhelp, really helped the
experience along, and theneveryone else was tripping.
So it was like everyone wasjust kind of like love and yay,
this is really cool.
And I don't know, at a metalshow, yeah, i don't think that's
not the vibe in.
I don't think it's not for me,as I fucking love metal.
It's my life but, I don't forfor the psychedelic experience.

(51:43):
It's too sacred to be in achaotic environment, like for me
.
Anyway, some people might likeit.
That's totally cool.
If that's a journey you can getinto, that's okay.
So the room should also havesome kind of music system.
So I think this is reallyimportant.
Music during your trip isreally important.

(52:05):
I like he talks about havingmusic with no lyrics, but I
guess it depends on my mood.
I like a mix.
I typically will not listen tometal Like what I've driven man,
i like listening to moreinstrumental.
There was an album I listenedto a lot and it was like it was

(52:29):
a lot of Native American typemusic flute, wind type stuff,
just very calming chance stufflike that was like soothing And
when you really like, sometimesthat music can take you on a
journey itself, because I don'tknow about you.
But like when I listen to musicjust not tripping or anything,

(52:50):
i close my eyes and like I cango on a journey listening to the
song.
Sometimes, yeah, and withpsychedelics it's like that
times a million, like you're init, like oh, i'm flying through
space right now, like whoa dude,like this is super fucking cool
man.

Speaker 2 (53:05):
You don't do any rock at all.
It's rare I imagine somethingtrippy like I think of like
maybe Intune by Deftone.
Do you heard that song?
No, oh, it's a good song, man.
It's got a really like almostspacey kind of like sound That
might work Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
That might work.
There was a band I really likedlistening to when I tripped.
There was a band calledMoonspell and they're a goth
metal band And it was this albumcalled Extinction.
It came out in 2016.
It's just such a good album Andthat's one I can listen to when
I'm tripping, because it'sMoonspell does a really good job

(53:44):
.
Like it's not that, it's notdeath metal.
There's, you know, like it'slush, it's got like that lush
sound.
It's.
There's clean, a lot of cleanvocals, but it's like that.
You ever listen to typonegative?
I've heard of them, i've neverlistened to them.
Damn, it's kind of that vibe.
Yeah, you know that, that, thatdeep voice that Peter Steele

(54:07):
had.
So that's one I can listen to,but no, it's it's usually like
instrumental war, like the NewAge Scandinavian music, drums
and stuff like that.
Let's see, it's better if theroom can be insulated from
outside sites and sounds,including people's voices, pets

(54:27):
and phones.
Your goal is to create andmaintain a simple environment
that supports inner quiet.
When in doubt, make the spaceeven simpler.
So, it says.
Most experienced guides preferto begin the session indoors
with music, so that thevoyager's mind is the primary
source for what unfolds.
So they talk about a guide inhere And like I think if it's

(54:57):
your first time having apsychedelic experience, i think
it's it's worth trying to findlike a guide or someone who's
done it before who understandswhat you're about to go through.
Yeah, i didn't have.
Well, i guess technically I did.
You know, i had everyone thatwas with me So like if anything
started happening I could talkto them And but I did like I

(55:19):
just kind of went with it, youknow, and it was totally cool,
like no problems.

Speaker 2 (55:23):
From the sounds of it you kind of valued the solitude
of it at this point, i meanwell, not that.

Speaker 1 (55:29):
so in that first experience at the concert I I I
guess I realized I could havethat experience and be cool,
right.
But yeah, after that, all thesubsequent experiences after
were like by myself, because Ijust I think I get more out of

(55:50):
it when I'm alone.
I get, and I do exactly what hesays in this book.
I get like an area setup,comfortable area, i make sure
I've got the music, i got like aplaylist ready to go,
headphones, i got like somewater ready.
So this is funny because sopart of my whole set and setting

(56:11):
and this kind of contradicts alot of things.
But one of the things I reallylike to do is like I'll eat,
i'll eat the mushrooms And thenI'll put on.
there's two movies that Ialways like to start watching
and they make no sense, okay.
one is Mad Max Fury Road, okay,and the other is Apocalypse Now
the Redux.

(56:31):
Why, i don't know, becausethey're so Apocalypse Now.
Have you seen it?

Speaker 2 (56:38):
No for France.
It's iconic and I haven't seenit.
Oh my God.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
So in the beginning, right As the movie opens up,
there's like this helicopter,rotor blade sound.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
Oh, and the book.
What song is playing?
I've heard of the scene doors.
This is the end.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
You get the Yeah, yes , so, and Martin Sheen is in a
hotel room and he's basicallytalking about, like how he feels
.
like he says a line in thatwhen he's back home he feels
like he's always in the jungle,but then when he's in the jungle

(57:14):
he wants to be back home.
So he's like and I rememberfirst hearing that in
Psychedelics, it hit me so hardI'm like he just explained the
fucking experience of being acombat vet.
It's so like contradictory,right.
You're like man, i want to behome, but then you're home and
you're like I wish I was back inAfghanistan.

(57:36):
Then you're in Afghanistan andyou're like I want to be back
home.
And it's like you're caught inbetween these worlds.
So I started watchingApocalypse Now and my trip would
hit me and I was just so drawninto like the experience of what
Martin Sheen was going through,because Francis Ford Coppola
did a.
Really I thought.

(57:56):
I think that movie encapsulatesthe absurdity of how America
fights its wars to a T, likenobody knows what's going on.
We lose shit all the time,we're very disorganized And
we're fighting these wars thatwe don't even have to win And

(58:18):
that's why we're fucking them up.
We're always fucking them up.
So that's why I like that movie, because it's got that profound
message.
But I never finish it becauseusually I'll go about an hour in
and I'm just It hits me.
And then Mad Max.
I think I like that because thecolors are so vivid and it's
such a visceral fucking movie Iwill usually turn it off.

(58:42):
You've seen Mad Max for yourroad, right?
Oh my god, bro, what is wrong?

Speaker 2 (58:48):
with you Every time you mention shit.
I never see it, I fucking knewit I literally love movies too.
Every time I bring it up, ihaven't seen it, but both of
these are like action movies,violence, yeah.
So isn't that kind ofcounterintuitive to the whole
message?
Yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
But that's what's crazy about it, because you
would think that that would havesome kind of influence on me to
go off and have some fucked uptrip.
It's actually the opposite AndI can't explain why.
I'll be honest, i've neverreally dived into the why of it.
But I mean, you make a goodpoint And I know it's

(59:26):
contradictory, but I also knowthat it gets me into this
headspace where so in Mad Maxnot to totally ruin it but
there's a scene in there wherethey're driving through the
desert and it's just fuckingsandstorm kicks up and it's just
engulfs everybody.

(59:47):
And then I'll usually turn itoff after that because it's such
an epic scene.
And then I have a greatexperience.
I get my music on and I'm like,okay, i got what I needed out of
the beginning.
So usually I get about an hourinto each movie and I'm like cut
it off, never watched theending, not when I'm tripping.
No, i don't watch the wholething, because usually by that

(01:00:08):
point I'm like I'm tripping, i'mlike whoa man, like I'm really
into it.
I turn it off, i give my musicon and I just go on this
beautiful journey just of selfdiscovery and all this other
stuff.
So that's your setting.
You got to be in a comfortableenvironment.
You got to be with really goodpeople.
If you're going to do it withpeople, they've got to be on the

(01:00:30):
same fucking page.
man, like I can't emphasizethat enough, i cannot emphasize
how important it is to not bearound assholes when you're
tripping, because they will ruinit.
They will fucking ruin yourexperience.
They can bring you back tosobriety And like that's not a
fun experience when you'reexpecting to have like a great

(01:00:52):
time And then all of a suddenyou got this friend fucking with
you.
We have people we've talked tohave had that happen.
I'm a devil.
And next thing you're like, ohmy God, this person, it can
escalate like that.
And so you got to have peoplewho understand that it's going
to be really challenging andthat you might in the beginning

(01:01:13):
you might kind of freak out alittle bit.
But again, that freak outperiod is very, it's very quick
And I'd say the majority, i'dsay like 99% of the people who
end up having challenging tripsthey let that first 30 minutes
like dictate the rest of it.
Yes, yeah, they have, becausethat goes away.

(01:01:36):
Because, like, if I couldexplain that first 30 minutes
it's like turbulence, right.
So you eat it.
Time goes by and it hits youhard.
You're like, oh, you feel thatturbulence.
You're like, oh, my perception,what the fuck?
my reality's changing, like thewalls are melting, like my

(01:01:57):
reality is wavy, like what'sgoing on.
But then, as long as you cansay to yourself, i'm going to be
fine, that's it.
It's like that's all you need.
And if you have someone withyou who just will look a big hey
, you're going to be okay,that's all you need to hear.
Like it's that fucking simple.
And I think a lot of people,they think they're being cool

(01:02:20):
and they think they're beingfunny And like I'm just fucking
with you, man, and it's like nodude, like that's it.
It can really ruin it, and thenthat person will never want to
have that experience again.
And so they're missing out onthe benefit of having a
psychedelic experience, which iswhy I like to do them by myself
, because there is no outerinfluence, there's nothing.

(01:02:43):
So, like, whatever trip I haveis entirely dependent on what's
going on with me in my mind.
Like you know, if my settingisn't is right and I got the
right music and stuff like that,it'll be a good journey.
Okay, so we've kind of goneover some of the experience

(01:03:07):
stuff And I want to.
We were talking about thisbefore we started the podcast,
so there's a pair of studiesthat I like to talk to people
about that really highlights thepower of psilocybin
specifically psilocybin, butpsychedelics.

(01:03:27):
So back in 2016, there were apair of studies out of New York
University that basicallystudied what psilocybin would do
for, like terminally or cancerpatients, right So like, and
they have pretty seriousdiagnoses.

(01:03:48):
So I'm going to read part ofthe abstract.
For which study is this one?
Let me double check here.
Okay, roland Griffiths, andhe's a big name in psychedelics.
This was published in theJournal of Psychopharmacology in
2016.
So let's go.

(01:04:09):
Okay, so abstract.
Cancer patients often developchronic, clinically significant
symptoms of depression andanxiety.
Previous studies suggest thepsilocybin may decrease
depression and anxiety in cancerpatients.
The effects of psilocybin werestudied in 51 cancer patients
with life threatening diagnosesand symptoms of depression and
or anxiety.
So okay.

(01:04:29):
So this study was a randomizeddouble blind crossover trial
that investigated the effects of, so one group would get a
placebo, like dose of admin B.
So this one is the psilocybin.
Okay, so this and we'll go tothat other study.
But in this study, the controlgroup was a very so basically

(01:04:54):
they got a micro dose ofpsilocybin, okay, and then the
other, the other group got ahigh dose of psilocybin and
counterbalance sequence.
So basically what that means isgroup A would get the placebo
right, group B gets the fulldose And then, at week five,
group A would then get the highdose and group B would get the

(01:05:17):
low dose, so they would crossover.
You know that.
So about this is for everyonelistening Okay, so what did all?
what does all this mean?
right?
So let's go down a little more.
Read some more of this, more ofthe study, okay, okay,

(01:05:38):
participant staff and communityobservers rated.
So what they did is they hadclinicians, so they they use
clinical guidelines as well as,like people in their lives to to
, you know, establish like, wow,this person's really improved.
So they did that as well.
High dose psilocybin producedlarge decreases in clinician and

(01:06:00):
self rated measures ofdepressed mood and anxiety,
along with increases in qualityof life, life meaning and
optimism, and decreases in deathanxiety.
At six month follow up, thesechanges were sustained, with
about 80% of participantscontinuing to show clinically

(01:06:21):
significant decreases anddepressed mood and anxiety.
Participants attributedimprovements and attitudes about
life, self, mood relationshipsand spirituality to the high
dose experience, with 80 over80% endorsing moderately or
greater increased wellbeing lifesatisfaction community observer

(01:06:42):
ratings showed correspondingchanges.
Mystical type psilocybinexperience.
On session day meditated theeffect of psilocybin dose on
therapeutic outcomes.
That's fucking crazy.
Yeah, that's big, that's okay.
So you're a nurse?
Yes, i mean, is there a drugthat has had this kind of

(01:07:07):
obvious?

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):
I mean like effect right off the bat?
No do.
My first thought process islike we are literally giving
people who are into life care.
We are giving them morphine,diluted fentanyl, like we are
giving them the hardest fuckingshit there is out there.
And we're at this point we'reaccepting, like chemo is not
going to kick it Right, like sowe're trying to make them

(01:07:28):
comfortable, we're trying toimprove their quality of life.
So why the fuck would you nottry whatever might work?

Speaker 1 (01:07:35):
Okay, so the last podcast, i brought up my grandpa
when he broke his hip, yeah,and he was depressed and he was
put on medication which did nothelp It kind of made him more
depressed.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
Well, you talked about I'm going to bring this up
because I forgot to mention thefirst episode you mentioned how
there was like a dualitybetween, like, you were at that
time experimenting withpsilocybin and you were noticing
an improvement in your mentalhealth.
His was deteriorating on onwith his.
You know antidepressants.
But one thing I forgot to saywas dude, you weren't in a

(01:08:13):
fucking nursing home.
Fair enough, i do that as a.
It's not a hot place to be, youknow, for the most people at
least.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
You know like yeah but, but I think psilocybin
would have still been better.

Speaker 2 (01:08:26):
Absolutely.
Why not try it Like?
I mean right, right.

Speaker 1 (01:08:30):
Exactly So.
That's, that's Dr RowlandGriffith's study And that's
really significant Like when welook at our society and we look
at people suffering with, withdepression, and it seems like
and I don't know if, like,social media and media and news
cycle distorts this, but it justit seems like there's an

(01:08:53):
ungodly amount of people rightnow who are just not doing very
good, you know, struggling withmental health, struggling with
anxiety.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
Really heard about it during the fucking lockdown.
man, Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:09:06):
And so, like you, look at this study and we're
going to go over the other one,and these are people who are
fucking dying And if theysuddenly have this profound
experience and it completelyalters how they feel about death
and their quality of life, like, imagine what that would do to

(01:09:29):
just someone dealing with kindof like generalized depression.
They're not dying, but they'rejust depressed, like.
So, combat vets right, combatveterans, i think, is the other
reason why psychedelics arebeing accepted by more
mainstream audiences now.
And politicians I mean thepoliticians are just going to
use it.
They don't give a fuck, they'rejust going to use it because

(01:09:51):
it'll help them.
But you know, combat veteranshave been that other trial group
that have shown crazyimprovements in depression and
mood And like I, that's why Ilike I share my experience
openly, because there's a lot ofcombat vets out there who, who,

(01:10:11):
like they, they get caught inthat cycle.
You know they're onantidepressants, they're not
working, they don't really knowwhat to do, sitting at home
contemplating Yeah, yeah, andlike when they hear other combat
vets talk about things likepsilocybin and what it's done

(01:10:33):
for them.
I think that you know it startsa conversation and it starts
that individual down a pathwaylike, okay, well, let me look
into this.
Like, if I'm struggling rightnow and the shit I'm taking
right now is not helping, itmight be making it worse.
Like, let me look into this,because I was, i was taking
tracidone, dude, to sleep Or forthis.

(01:10:54):
Well, yeah, so they had, theyhad prescribed it for sleep, but
it's an anti psychotic.
It's fucking strong It is, andI hated taking it, dude.
I fucking hated taking it.
I felt detached.

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
Really, yes, how many milligrams are you getting?
a 90?
You remember 150?
Holy fucking shit.
That's like the highest dose of.
I've seen one of the personwith the high dose.
That's oh, that's standard 150milligram.
Most combat vets that like myyeah, i see like 25 and 50, 100,
750, 150 is like the highestI've seen.

Speaker 1 (01:11:28):
That's crazy man We got bottles of it, but I have
never used, holy shit.
So the lowest I've beenprescribed is 100, but then
they're like, cut the other onein half so you can take 150.
150 was like the minimum dosethey would give us, see.
so this is.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
I'm glad you're here, because like I wouldn't have
known that that was like mostdoses I see are significant,
like quite a bit lower than thatfor at least my population of
people I take care of.

Speaker 1 (01:11:53):
Yeah, man, and I fucking hated taking it because
I felt like it was altering mybrain in like a negative way.
It was making me feel moredetached, it was making me feel
more dull If that makes senselike it felt like I was being
plastic wrapped.
You know what I mean.
Like suddenly I see everything,like I know it's there, but I'm

(01:12:17):
not like experiencing it, i'mnot feeling it?

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
Are you talking about like around the clock or just
like, maybe, the eight to 10hours?
No, no, most of the time.

Speaker 1 (01:12:25):
Most of the time.
You know, even though I took itat, you know, i'd take it at
night I mean it's still in mysystem because I got to take it
every night.
Yeah, so it's always in mysystem.
So once I did this, i mean Iweaned myself off of it and then
I told my psych at the VA I'mlike I'm not taking this.
I'm done Like I'm not takingthis.
And they were actually reallycool about it.
You know, i'm like, look, dude,and I was open and honest about

(01:12:47):
my psychedelic experiences withthe VA.
So what the fucking doctor saidman, nothing.
They were surprisingly like Idon't want to say supportive,
but they weren't unsupportive.
And this is why And this isthey told me this.
They're like you know, thereason why we're not going to do
anything is because everythingelse in your life is good, your

(01:13:08):
finances are good, you're not,you're not getting in trouble
with the law or anything likethat.
So they're like if it's helping, then we'll support that.
Like, because everything you'rein school, you're doing this,
you're doing that.
So it was like I was showingthem that I'm like Hey, look,
i'm doing this mushroom thingand like shit's really going
good for me.
I'm not taking this medicine.

(01:13:28):
So they're actually pretty coolwith it, which so we're going
to eventually have them on here.
But I had a counselor who wasvery supportive of it my VA
counselor.
He's retired now He's retiredAnd but he he's a big
psychedelic supporter proponentand he's actually over in
Fayetteville, Arkansas, and he'sgetting involved with their

(01:13:53):
setting up psychedelic proprograms over there and at the
college and he's going to beinvolved in that.
Wow, yeah, so we'll have him on.
I already talked to him aboutcoming out of the podcast So
he'd be.
He'd be a really great sourceof information on psychedelics,
like way I can imagine waydeeper than I can go, and plus
he's got the clinical experienceand just like.

(01:14:13):
But yeah, he's a very bigsupporter of psychedelics And it
was really cool to have someoneto talk to about it.
Like you know, had maybe a moreclinical approach.
I mean, he's a deadhead, he's atotal deadhead, which probably
helped, but he was, he was thebest, he was the best mental
health practitioner I'd ever hadAnd he didn't even serve the
military.

(01:14:34):
You know, usually it's kind ofweird like talking to a guy.
Yeah, you know, because when Iwent to rehab there was only one
other, there was only two ofthe people that worked there
that ever served in the military, so everyone else was civilians
And like one of them that mycounselor, she kind of like

(01:14:57):
pissed me off one time.
So we're talking about, youknow, being in combat And a lot
of these civilian mental healthpractitioners have it in their
head that, like everyone shitsand pisses themselves in combat.
So I'm not kidding, like it's,it's weird.
And I was telling her I'm likethat that stuff didn't happen,

(01:15:17):
like I never no one like pissedtheir pants And she was like.
She was like didn't believe me.

Speaker 2 (01:15:24):
I was like okay, pissy pants.

Speaker 1 (01:15:26):
Yeah, it fucking pissed me off.
I'm like bitch, first of all youhave no idea Like no, no, no,
like pissing their pants, dude,like I don't know who does that,
you know?
do you know who LieutenantColonel Grossman is?
He wrote on killing, a bookcalled on killing.
No, it's an interesting bookAnd it's basically on the

(01:15:50):
psychology of combat killing,people taking lives, and there's
a section in there that hetalks about where, like, people
are like evacuating their bowelsAnd I mean that's a thing, but
I never saw it.
None of us ever dealt with it.
Like in my worst firefights Iwasn't like shitting myself or
like peeing in my pants LikeI've only heard of this like on

(01:16:11):
death, like obviously like helet it go.

Speaker 2 (01:16:13):
But no, i never heard of like just well, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:16:15):
so me and Cooper always joke about it, Like you
know, before we start rollingand jujitsu, like everyone, runs
the piss.
Yeah, Yeah, that's what'shappening.
Your body, your mind.
I never go to piss, dude.

Speaker 2 (01:16:26):
Well, you're not hydrated I just I just pissed my
pants over rolling dude.
Oh god, hell.
Yeah, i mean, is that what thatwas?
It's not the mask that smell,It's me, bro.
I knew it.

Speaker 1 (01:16:38):
I just knew it Fuck.
So yeah, man, it's like yourbrain and body are preparing
itself for for by the flightdude.
Yeah, yeah, so like, but but itnever happened in combat.

Speaker 2 (01:16:51):
So like that, i don't , that's just a weird aside, you
know, strangely enough, like so, whenever you get into
situations, you do release thatchemical that everybody calls it
adrenaline, but it's not it's.
You know what's the actualchemical call.
I can't even think right now.
You're the nurse, dude, fuckyou.
I can't think right now.
All right, but listen, that'sdisappointing It totally like
you have.

(01:17:11):
Your body has two differentstates, you know, like the rest
and digest and it's got thefucking like booking mode, like
my getting crushed by a car.
I got to lift it Right And thatlike pretty much like all your
digestive stuff, like stops,including your bladder and
everything The next sense.

Speaker 1 (01:17:24):
So like, yeah, it has to do with like your, your body
, like it's going to differentplaces now.

Speaker 2 (01:17:29):
Your body is like literally prioritizing like what
needs, like I don't like likesuck that turtle head back in,
dude.

Speaker 1 (01:17:33):
Like yeah, we got shit to do, all right, like
you're gonna have to, like thatmakes sense, relax, you know
because that's what I felt likein like being combat, like
There's two things, like I'lltell you, this is getting way
off psychedelics, but like thething with combat is When you're
in that moment.
There's two things I rememberthinking about One.
I remember being appreciativethat I was in good shape because

(01:17:56):
breathing plays a very, verybig part.
Fucking shooting accurately,yes, yes, like so, when I was in
that super hyper arous state Iwas.
It was almost like a jiu-jitsu,where Here you're breathing,
you're trying to breathe slowly,trying to control that
breathing, because when you'renot, you start panicking.
It's the same, it's the sameconcept.

(01:18:18):
And then When you're in afirefight, you get that fucking
tunnel vision.
Man, and you have to be awareof that, because if you get
sucked into that tunnel visiontoo much, you're suddenly
missing other pieces of thebattle space.
So it's like you kind of it'sit's hard To not get into that
tunnel vision because it's justnaturally that's what we do, but

(01:18:38):
you have to just be aware of itand the kind of you get super
down on, like your off-dict, ifuck it like literally, like I'm
looking at that wall and I'mnot seeing anything.
Like literally like myperipherals to shut down, yes,
damn, yeah, like completely shutdown.
But but those are the twothings I always remembered, like
breathing and Like visualawareness, where the two things

(01:19:01):
I always had to keep in mind andI'd say, even more than the
visual thing, that the Breathingwas the most important It's
like getting into a goodbreathing pattern when you're
running 50 miles.

Speaker 2 (01:19:11):
No, jesus dude you know what I used to run?
I used to run, i mean, likefive kids.
It's fucking nothing comparedto.
I fucking hate running.

Speaker 1 (01:19:17):
Don't talk to me.

Speaker 2 (01:19:20):
You're right.
You like you start off fucking,huffing and puffing.
You're gonna be dead beforeit's over, yeah All right.

Speaker 1 (01:19:25):
So that was.
That was the, the study fromRoland Griffiths.
Now, this was an accompanyingstudy that was going on at the
same time and is not in any wayrelated To the study we just
talked about.
So this guy's name is StevenRoss, anthony bosses and a few
other.
So this study is the rapid andsustained symptom reduction

(01:19:46):
following psilocybin treatmentfor Anxiety and depression in
patients with life that incancer.
This is a separate study, mindyou.
Let's again, this is a separatestudy.
This is not the same one.
I just read.
That's important, so let's gocheck this abstract out.
Background clinicallysignificant anxiety and
depression are common inpatients with cancer And are

(01:20:08):
associated with poor psychiatricand medical outcomes.
Historical and recent researchsuggests a role for psilocybin
to treat cancer related anxietyand depression.
Again, it's a double-blindplacebo controlled crossover
trial, and this one had 29patients with cancer related
anxiety and depression, and Sothese ones were randomly

(01:20:30):
assigned and received treatmentwith a single dose of psilocybin
or Niacin.
Niacin was the control right,both in conjunction with
psychotherapy.
Let's see results prior to thecrossover psilocybin okay, so
when they say for everyonelistening, when they say prior

(01:20:51):
the crossover, like in theprevious study, the way this
study worked is that group Areceives the hydro psilocybin
right off the bat, group Breceives the niacin Right and
then after seven weeks Theycross over.
So now that group A will havethe niacin and group B will then

(01:21:14):
receive the Hydro psilocybin,okay, so prior to the crossover,
psilocybin produced immediate,substantial and sustained
improvements and An anxiety anddepression and led to decreases
in cancer related demoralization, hopelessness, improved
spiritual well-being andincreased quality of life.

(01:21:38):
At the six and a half monthfollow-up, psilocybin was
associated with enduring okay,here's that word and Angiolidic
angiolidic, yeah, okay.
And any depressant effects.
And in parentheses, it saysapproximately 60 to 80 percent
of participants continued withclinically significant

(01:22:01):
reductions in depression oranxiety, sustained benefits and
existential distress and qualityof life, as well as improved
attitude towards death.
So both of these studies showThat psilocybin administered to
fucking people who are likepractically they know they're

(01:22:23):
dying, yeah, improved theirquality of life, improved their
fucking up.
Both studies this study says 60to 80 percent.
The other study was like over80 percent.
That's fucking huge.
That's almost every and thepeople.
It's probably 80 percentbecause some of these people
unfortunately passed away Duringthe before the study concluded,

(01:22:44):
before the study concluded.
So Well, i guess what we cantake away from These studies is
that, psychedelics, i need tostop probably being dismissed.
I Mean there's an ungodly amountof scientific research at this
point.
I mean, if in 1965 there wasthousands of studies, i mean at

(01:23:06):
this point there's got to betripled at least year or more.
Yeah, especially right now,because this is the weird thing
that's happening.
I Guess I kind of get why theyhave to do it, you know, but a
lot of these researchers andscientists, they're they're
they're Doing the same studiesthat have already been done in
the 60s and 70s, right, sothey're just they're treading

(01:23:28):
ground That's already beenwalked on.
And I get why a lot of them hasstated because it's just, they
kind of have to to, even though,like, the methods haven't
really changed and thetechnology used to measure any
of this stuff It's not like it'sfucking groundbreaking, it's
pretty basic tech.
And I guess the reason whythey're regurgitating and read,

(01:23:51):
you know, re going over the samestudies is just so, people, you
know we're so, we're so tiedinto science, down research and
everything science-based.
And so there I get, they'regetting all their ducks in a row
like it's bulletproof and Youknow they're probably thick.
Look, this is the one thingthat I'm worried about with

(01:24:13):
psychedelics and it's it's we'reseeing it with weed is the
commercialization of it.
I so I kind of want to, uh,there's a caveat to all this
psychedelic talk And I, you know, i think a lot of people that
push psychedelics don't always,um, talk about it.
But you know, psychedelics isnot for everybody.

(01:24:34):
You know, you said, like, as anurse, you're not condoning it,
and me, as someone who's used it, like there are absolutely
people out there who have nobusiness doing psychedelics
typically, like in these studies, um, people who are allowed to
participate in the studies A lotof times, individuals that have

(01:24:54):
like a strong history ofintense mental illness,
schizophrenia, bipolar, likereally, really chemical amounts,
heavy, heavy stuff, um, shouldstay away from psychedelics.
They're probably the ones whoshouldn't.
And and whenever someone hearssomebody having a break from
reality with psychedelics, thatindividual probably was

(01:25:18):
susceptible to that Right, andthat's a.
That's a very small percentageof like very, very it's.
So, actually, you know what?
Um, i read that part to you.
Let's go back to this part withthe study that um, let's see if
I can find it About the factthat over, okay, um, here we go.
Safety and adverse events.

(01:25:39):
So this is then that secondstudy.
There were no serious adverseevents with medical uh or
psychiatric um with thepsilocybin in the trial that
were attributed to psilocybinsince the early 90s, all right.
Since the early 1990s,according to the study,

(01:25:59):
approximately 2000,.
Approximately 2000 doses ofpsilocybin, ranging from low to
high, have been safelyadministered to humans in the U?
S and Europe and carefullycontrolled scientific settings,
with no reports of any medicalor psychiatric serious adverse
events, including no reportedcases of prolonged psychosis or

(01:26:25):
HPPD.
I don't know that.
Do you know HPPD?
I actually don't.

Speaker 2 (01:26:30):
Yeah, that's never heard of HPPD.
Okay, maybe someone out therewill tell us.

Speaker 1 (01:26:36):
So, uh, and this finding is consistent with uh,
let's see use population, a oneto four data um base.
Uh found no association betweenlifetime use of any of the of
sight.
So there's no addiction, right,yeah?
So that's what this is saying.
A lot of people there's thatgoing back to you know people

(01:27:00):
are like I don't want to losecontrol.
Or you know, you see, uh, mediapresenting people that are on
psychedelics and they fuckinghave mental breakdowns and all
this other shit.
And with these clinicians aresaying is that that's bullshit.
Though out of 2000, 2000 doseshigh, some of these incredibly
high, not one time was anyadverse effect reported.

(01:27:23):
That's fucking huge.
Say that about an SSRI, anantidepressant.
I bet you can't.
I bet you there's plenty ofside effects that people try
sick like or any sort ofantidepressant.
Yeah, yeah, there's always thatrisk And what they're saying is
like no man, we have not seenthat, and like that's huge, but
that's big And that's.
This is in a very heavily peerreviewed journal.

(01:27:45):
That's, that's saying that.
So I don't know.
I mean I'm glad to see.
It seems like now like thenarrative's changing.
You see more people openlytalking about psychedelics,
right, and you have states thatare kind of rolling back.
You know the legality of it.
I mean if, if, if they'restarting up research in Arkansas

(01:28:05):
and psychedelics like you knowthat shit's changing And I bet
you it's going to be likecannabis, weed, whatever you
want to call it, that it'll bethis domino effect.
But going back to kind of likebeing afraid of what like with
psychedelics, it's going to becommercialized, right, and and
even though it hasn't happenedwith weed yet, they're going to

(01:28:27):
try to figure out a way.
I think, especially withpsychedelics, because it's way
more potent than just smoking ajoint, like eating three and a
half grams of mushrooms is notthe same experience as like
smoking a joint.
Even if you eat.
Well, when you eat weed it's,it's considered a hallucinogen.

(01:28:47):
We'd consider it a hallucinogenbecause when you consume it,
your liver processes it and youget this different, almost semi
And actually I got a real funnystory about that.
I was living on the road, right, so this would have been 2021.
I was.
Where was I?
So I was.

(01:29:08):
I spent the summer down in theKofa National Wildlife Refuge.
It was down just north of Yuma,arizona.
I spent the winter there.
So I'm going to leave and I getinto Nevada No, i'm sorry, i I
I go up to a place called, ithink, bullhead City, arizona,
which is right on the ColoradoRiver and right across from that

(01:29:30):
is Laughlin, nevada.
So I camp at this littlecampsite on the Arizona side.
Wake up, you know, do my thing,cross the border in a Nevada
and there's a dispensary rightthere.
I go in and I'm like get acouple of pre-rolls And I'm like
what do you have for edibles?
And the lady I don't even knowwhy I just I was like fuck it,

(01:29:50):
let me just impulse, yeah.
And she's like, well, we don't.
But she's like we have thesedrinks, they're called Mai Tai
shots.
And I'm like all right, give metwo of those, and each one's a
hundred milligrams.
So I walk out of the dispensary, literally drink the whole one,
like drink it.
Just drink it Cause I'm okay,cause here's the thing I had.
I had eaten some edibles, likeyears prior, and had no effect,

(01:30:15):
Like it didn't affect me.
So I'm like I'm thinking likethe same shit.
Drink the whole thing.
Get in my RV.
I'm like cool, driving, driving.
I get onto the Joshua TreeNational Highway right, which is
like that iconic highway.
It's super fucking flat.
You can see, you can.

(01:30:35):
It's it's, it's crazy how it'sgoing to go.
It's it's, it's, it's crazy howflat it is.
It's almost disorienting.
So I'm on this highway and justdrive.
There's no track, there's noone around.
I'm doing like 50.
There's no traffic.
I don't have to worry aboutshit, bro.
And it starts like like I startfeeling it.
I'm like, okay, so get off thehighway, stop at a gas station,

(01:30:59):
get some sandwiches.
And I'm talking to this ladyand I'm like, oh man, i'm
feeling it, i know.
I go into my RV and dude it,fuck my heart, it hits me my
heart starts racing, like I havethis anxiety attack, yeah.
But then I realized somethinglike oh, like it's.
Oh, my God, it's, it's, it'sthe drink, it's.
I feel like I'm tripping rightnow.
I feel like I'm about to entera psychedelic experience.

(01:31:21):
It's that same feeling I had,like when the mushrooms kick in
and the.
but the minute I realized thatdude I was, it was beautiful.
I get back on the road.
I'm doing I'm not driving likecrazy.
I know it's like terrible to methat I'm doing that, but I did.
I don't give a fuck, i'm a safedriver.
Anyway.
I'm in an RV.
I'm doing like 50 miles an hour.

(01:31:42):
I'm going slow And I rememberdriving in the highway I come
across, i come up to this likeclimb up a bit, crest this hill,
and there are these crazy powerplants in California that are
like there are these towers, sothere's a big mirror on it And
it's.
It's like it's like redirectingthe sunlight onto these panels.

(01:32:04):
It's like a, it's like steamand shit.
And I remember coming up overthe hill and I see him.
I'm like, i felt like I wasdriving in a mortar, you know,
like the tower dude.
It was like the coolestexperience.
But yeah, so when you consume ahigh enough amount of like weed
, you'll have a psychedelicexperience.
It'll feel like it.
I still think mushrooms aremore intense, but yeah, that's

(01:32:28):
just a little fun little storystory, but I was like just names
driving his RV just trippingmajor ball sack I felt like I
was in fear and loathing in LasVegas.
Have you probably never seenthat either?
Go ahead and ask me Have youseen it?
No, all right, that's threefucking movies that you've got
to watch.
Fear and loathing is So.

(01:32:49):
It's Johnny Depp is in it, andbasically it's about Hunter S
Thompson.
I don't know if you know HunterS Thompson was a journalist
wrote for Rolling Stones, verylike super controversial.
So Johnny Depp was a huge fan ofHunter S Thompson So he played
him in fear and loathing.
And it's it's about when hewent out to Vegas to report on

(01:33:13):
this race in the desert.
It was some kind of I forgetthe race it was, but like the
whole movie is just about hisdrug experiences, him and what
the fuck, the guy's name thatwas in it And he's the adult
Toro, okay Places attorney andlike they're just dropping acid,
doing mescaline mushrooms, justlike bonkers.

(01:33:37):
But yeah, so you can, man, yougot to watch.
Those are three movies.
I think you really, you reallygot to watch.

Speaker 2 (01:33:43):
I've had my own apocalypse now for a while Like
I want to watch that.
I've been waiting for the righttime, dude, it's so good.

Speaker 1 (01:33:48):
Yeah, so good You got to get the Redux.
It's like So apocalypse now isalready a real long movie.
The Redux is like Adds out likeanother hour, so the movies are
three hours long, but it addsreally critical part Like It

(01:34:08):
shows.
So the theatrical release cutout a big chunk of the movie
where he's going down the riverand they come across the French
because people forget the French, you know, had the heavy
involvement in Vietnam And wekind of like took over their
shit show in like 64, 65, likeFrance was getting their ass
kicked in Vietnam before we were.

(01:34:29):
So there's a lot of French thatwere there living, i tell me
that the French surrendered.

Speaker 2 (01:34:37):
I don't know what they did but I get what you're
insinuating.

Speaker 1 (01:34:39):
I get what you're insinuating.
You know.
What's ironic is that there wasa time where France had the
most powerful army in thefucking world.
It's crazy.
And they just Germany, just putan end to that.
They're like fuck, you rollthrough and just destroy them.
And then France was never thesame.
I trained at the French for anLegion and they're badass.
But here's the thing about theFrench for an Legion Most of

(01:35:00):
them are French, most of themare French, like so, in Djibouti
, africa, djibouti, we left,yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:35:10):
You got the train at the Legion and most of them were
from.

Speaker 1 (01:35:13):
I mean, i mean, i mean, i mean, i mean, i mean, i
mean, i mean, I mean, i mean, imean they were from South
America, brazilian, a lot ofBrazilians, Wow, yes, lots of
Brazilians.
And there was a guy from Norwaywhich was awesome because he
was a metalhead.
Of course he's from fuckingNorway, so I got to chow this
dude about black metal and deathmetal And it was cool because

(01:35:35):
he totally got it.
But so the French for an Legionis super legit because they're
you know, they're mostly notFrench.
I guess He's in your forces man.
And then the guy that was likeI guess he was a sergeant, he
was Irish, straight.
I like had the accent, likesuper cool, like he's a.
He's how I expected someonefrom Ireland to be just funny

(01:35:58):
but like kind of brash, you know, and just didn't give a fuck.
Yeah man, but he was such a coolguy, really cool guy.
Ok, so Yeah, psychedelics, ithink, um, let me, there's a.
There was something in thepsychedelic experience I did
want to read again before as westart whining this talk on

(01:36:21):
psychedelics down.
So Let me see here Where is itat Just talked about it, but on
your reading glasses, old man.
I know, dude.
Ok, so here we go.
In August 2004, the Englishnewspaper The Mail on Sunday
reported that geneticist FrancisCrick was taking low doses of

(01:36:43):
LSD when he uncovered the doublehelix from the DNA molecule in
1953.
This bit of information, whichcricks strenuously suppressed
during his life but eventuallyadmitted to, is only one of many
examples of a secret technostichistory linking psychedelic use
with recent advances in humanknowledge.

(01:37:04):
See, a lot of people don'tunderstand that a lot of
scientists will use psychedelics.
You know when, when TimothyLeary, and when they were
ramping up their research,scientists were coming to them
because they would be stuck withproblems And they would go
through an LSD trip And afterthat trip they would suddenly

(01:37:29):
have the answer to their problem.
And that's what I don't think alot of people understand.
You know, carl Sagan wasphysicist.
Yes, i know Pale blue dotcontact.
He was a.
He was a big proponent of weed.
He said it helped him think,helped him go into deeper levels
of consciousness.
So I think And I kind of blamethe scientific community for

(01:37:53):
that, for being so kind of quietabout it because if people
understood that some verysignificant scientific advances
came about because of apsychedelic experience like,
that's huge, you know like why.
So why is this shuttered away,man?
Why are people so fuckingashamed?

Speaker 2 (01:38:13):
to talk about it, Ironic.
they didn't want to be lookeddown upon, but their very
admittance could make it lesslooked down upon.

Speaker 1 (01:38:18):
Yeah, exactly It gets rid of that stigma.
But you know, i think we're ina better spot now as a society.
I think we understand thatpsychedelics aren't as
ridiculous like weed, like thegovernment trying to.
You know, reefer madness, Right, i mean, come on, bro, they're
smoking weed in a robin banksand shit like acting complete
bonkers, which was the mostinaccurate depiction of anyone

(01:38:41):
smoking weed.
I mean, that's just so nuts.
So so there's this history ofpsychedelic usage and scientific
advancement that I think a lotof people aren't aware of.
So I wanted to get that outthere.
And then let's see again.
This is from the psychedelicexperience.
For the first time since the60s, the government and the

(01:39:02):
academy are permittingscientific research into
psychedelic.
Because you asked how you knowhow, all of a sudden, these
places are getting able to study, because it is a schedule one
right, The government, theacademy?

Speaker 2 (01:39:13):
what about MK ultra?

Speaker 1 (01:39:15):
Oh, they could do it, bro We couldn't or what, but
that was before it was madeillegal.
Oh, all those studies place inlike the 50s and 60s.
Really OK, interesting, charlesManson.

Speaker 2 (01:39:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:39:25):
MK ultra.

Speaker 2 (01:39:27):
No way.
Yeah, ted Kaczynski too.
Yes, you know, bob, are you abomber?

Speaker 1 (01:39:31):
Yes, so he's got Yeah it's fucking brilliant And
there's a whole rabble a wholeweek to go down with Charles
Manson, yeah, and MK ultra andthe fact that when he got
arrested he always got peoplewould come in and be like he's
no, he needs to go.
The local law enforcement neverunderstood it.
It was like federal peoplecoming in being like no, you

(01:39:52):
need to let him go.
Yeah, there's a lot of fuck.
Yeah, dude, our government'snefarious bro, like our
government is nefarious, it'snot just our government, dude.
Well, no, but I mean we don'thave to deal with any other
government Like I recently readan article about what was in
Japan and their experiments ontheir people.

Speaker 2 (01:40:12):
I can remember what it was called dude during World
War Two Yeah, they were awful.

Speaker 1 (01:40:17):
Yeah, they're.
people forget how fuckingbrutal Japan was.

Speaker 2 (01:40:21):
That should have been a crime until like 80s.

Speaker 1 (01:40:23):
Dude, they were, they fucking Chinese, like Japan was
terrible.

Speaker 2 (01:40:27):
What was that fucking place called Help me out?
man, There was like that at B.
They had this big camp or thisfacility they take people to.

Speaker 1 (01:40:32):
I don't know the name of the place, but I I know what
you're talking about.
I know they did.
They did like Nazi typeexperiments on people.
Yeah, japan was like I don'tpeople like oh my God, we nuked
them.
It's like they were doing somepretty fucked up shit.

Speaker 2 (01:40:47):
They're already pretty fucked.
Like they were not, they wereliterally planning on dropping.
What is it?

Speaker 1 (01:40:52):
Some I think was ridden rats or insects in
California They had the play byplay right.
Something they were going toliterally fuck us up Because
because they were experimentingwith those kinds of diseases,
that, yeah, we're just all inthe shit And like, yeah, japan
wasn't innocent in anything.
Man like not innocent at all.
So yeah, so let me see whatelse.

(01:41:15):
So you got maps.
He talks about maps.
Ok.
So he even talks about whilescientific study of psychedelics
picks up.
Now, just so we're clear, thisis the full.
This is an introduction to thepsychedelic experience book,
because this book was written,god, this book was written in
the 60s And so the introductionis what I'm reading off of 64 is

(01:41:38):
when this was originallypublished and the introduction
is from 2007.
So it's more modern And he eventalks about how there's a
there's also an increasingopenness towards the legally
sanctioned use of natural andtheogens or, in parentheses, god
, releasing chemicals andestablished religious ritual.

(01:41:59):
That's why.
So in the US you have theNative American Church.
Have you heard of them?
They're like so it was startedby quantum Parker, who was a
Comanche, and They used Payote,yeah, to allow their ceremony.
So Quantum Parker fought thegovernment and won because he

(01:42:19):
said, look, this is a part ofour religious Ceremony and so
anybody affiliated with theNative American Church has a
right to use entheogens, youknow plant medicines to.
So whenever you hear people inthe US using like Iowa Oscar,
they're probably affiliated withlike a, a Native American, like
the Native American.
it's a very generic term Andyou know like I get the problem

(01:42:42):
with the term Native American.
It's just so generic, butthat's what it's called, you
know.
So, yeah, man, i think I thinkthe times are changing with
psychedelics.
I think more people are awareof it, more people are wanting
to know About psychedelics andthat's why I like talking about
it.
You know I especially talkingabout it because I've got a lot

(01:43:04):
of Well experience with it, butalso like the background, being
a combat vet and kind of the wayit's positively affected you.
I would share that with other.
Yes, absolutely, and I thinkthe more You know people like us
talk about it, i think the morewilling You know people are who

(01:43:24):
have been maybe kind of closedminded to it Or are then going
to be more willing to be like,ok, well, maybe I should look
into this.
If this guy is talking about itand he's not a hippie, he's
presenting some pretty validscientific research that shows
the effectiveness of, you know,even though those studies were
done on cancer patients, it'slike, if it works for them, it's

(01:43:46):
going to obviously work.

Speaker 2 (01:43:49):
Well they're.
They have literally theprobably The highest form of
depression.
You know what I'm saying.
Like they are 100%, completelyaware that they are going to die
.
Like they have.
So the anxiety with that Theone started to interrupt.

Speaker 1 (01:44:03):
But the one thing I didn't in both of these studies,
everyone that had thissignificant experience compared
it to the birth of their firstchild, to weddings.
That's how significant thatpsychedelic experience was was
that they put it up onimportance with the birth of

(01:44:25):
their children, with theirwedding.
Like that's not a small thing,that is a fucking significant
experience.
That's why, when I had myexperience, when I had that
initial experience at Bird Fest,like if I were to take profound
experiences of my life, likecombat and other things,

(01:44:46):
psychedelics would be rightthere at the top, like that
experience, that one experience,open the doorway to everything
else.
Like if I, if I wouldn't havehad that experience, like I
wouldn't have started writing, iprobably wouldn't have went
back to school.
I would have kind of been, iwould have been stuck in this
little shell.
You know that I don't eventhink I realized I had Like I

(01:45:08):
figured I was in a good spot Andthen I had psychedelics.
I was like whoa, i've got a lotof work I got to work on And it
just breaks down that barrier,i think.
I think Joe Rogan talks aboutthis a lot and it's joking, but
I think it's a good thing Hesays that politicians, before
they like get into office theyshould be, they should have to
have a psychedelic experience.

(01:45:29):
I mean, think about it.
Anyone who has that, that, thatintense, positive psychedelic
experience almost every timeTheir sense of compassion
increases.
And I don't know if anyoneknows directly why that happens.
For me personally, all I can sayis that when you're in the
throat of a psychedelicexperience, you literally feel

(01:45:50):
like you're connected toeverything.
You don't place anything aboveyourself or below.
You're just like I'm just apart of it And you don't even
care what it is.
You're just like you feel yourenergy.
You feel everyone else's energy, even when I'm by myself.
It's like I can feel this.
I feel like and see, this isgetting a little woo, but it's

(01:46:11):
like you feel the ground'senergy.
You feel like the sun's shiningEnergy, feel like the star,
like you just feel it.
You feel like you're connected,you, it's like you can see the
fibers that are, like connectedto us.
You know what I mean.
And and that gets a little woo,but like that's proceeds to say

(01:46:32):
he's not a hippie.

Speaker 2 (01:46:34):
We got a fucking hippie.

Speaker 1 (01:46:36):
I mean, i guess in a way I'm like I kind of am some
aspects, you know, like I could,but I don't go all in, i'm not,
you know no, i'm just a fuckingshit.
Yeah, i'm not listening to fishor grateful debt or anything.
I'm like a metal head hippie.
maybe You know Cooper's brothersaid that to me.
He's like I think was.
I was wearing my tie.

(01:46:57):
I creed teen shirt Like this isyour body.
And then Seth was like he's likeI swear, every time you come
here you look more like like a,like a marine hippie, like I
guess I'll take that as acompliment, i guess, um, so,
yeah, man, psychedelics.
I want to sort of wrap this upbefore I go to you with any

(01:47:18):
questions or anything.
Um, this is with a quote.
This is Roland Griffiths gave areally, really good Ted talk
And if any of you want to uhhear his Ted talk, just go on,
go on YouTube, search for RolandGriffiths Ted talk on
psychedelics.
It's really good.
It's only like 15 minutes buthe actually talks about the
study that he took, uh, the thisum study with these cancer

(01:47:40):
patients.
But, um, i want to sort of wrapthis up with what he says in um
, that Ted talk And this is whathe said.
I quote excitingly, explorationof the psilocybin occasion.
The mystical experience seems toprovide a model system for
rigorous and perspectiveinvestigation of these awakening

(01:48:03):
experiences.
Further research will surelyreveal the underlying biological
mechanisms of action, willlikely result in an array of
therapeutic applications And,more importantly, because such
experiences are foundationallyrelated to our moral and our

(01:48:23):
ethical understandings, furtherresearch may ultimately prove to
be crucial to the very survivalof our species.
Damn, that's intense.
It's intense, yeah, and I agreewith him.
And it goes back to politicianshaving to have a psychedelic
experience.
You know, um, it's so tied in,it is so tied in norm, morals

(01:48:45):
and our compassion.
We, you know, we always talkabout being compassionate but
it's really lip service.
And after you have that crazypsychedelic experience, i feel
like you really understand, you,what compassion is Like.
You know, it's just, it's, it's, it's an experience I think a
lot of people should have.
If you're hesitant about tryingpsychedelics, hopefully this

(01:49:07):
kind of shed some light on, uh,you know maybe what to expect,
um, how to, how to get yourenvironment right before you
start, because I don't think alot of people think about that.
Yeah Right, they're like, oh,i'm just going to fucking hang
on my buddies and we're going tojust do, we're going to eat a
bunch of mushrooms, and that'snot always the best thing to do.
No, sometimes, you know, thebest thing for you to do is find

(01:49:29):
someone you trust, tell themyour intentions, you know, have
them, be your guide and look, oh, this is the one thing I I I
didn't um get into too much, but, like a good guide is going to
interact with you as little aspossible.
Right Cause a guide, uh they.
You want to make sure, like agood guy, does not?

(01:49:50):
you don't want them to steeryou in a direction you're not
naturally taking yourself, sothe guide is really only there
to make sure there's you don'tfucking freak out.
It sounds like well yeah, tomake to to make sure you don't
freak out, but then they're notthere to tell you what you
should think or how you shouldlike.
they're just there, and havingthat presence sometimes is all

(01:50:10):
you need.
Just knowing there's someoneelse with you will help, like
I'm okay, I'm good, they'reright there, they're going to
keep me safe and and all that.
So that's on guide.
So if you're, you're on thefence about psychedelics,
hopefully we cleared some ofthat up.
Um, there's a ton of scientificliterature and research on the
safety of psychedelics.

(01:50:32):
So if that's one of yourhangups, um, you're afraid
you're going to have a psychoticbreak.
is that one study statedthere's over the 2000 doses?
not once have they were hadanybody have a, a, a
schizophrenic break or anythinglike that that you hear in these
fucking pop culture, ridiculousmedia, um, sensationalism, um.

(01:50:53):
so if you're on the fence, youknow, dive in and do some
research.
Uh, what I'm going to do is I'mgoing to include all the links
um to the studies, um to thebooks that uh my reference.
So anyone who's interested indiving deeper um into the world
of psychedelics you can go aheadand read some of the research
yourself.
Maybe you know.

(01:51:13):
just just so you can get um abetter understanding of what
it's all about.
Um, yeah, man, do you got any?
uh, anything else you want to?

Speaker 2 (01:51:25):
I want to put this out there because I know there's
going to be people listening.
You know whose professions youknow might not necessarily allow
this kind of thing And uh, iunderstand that myself, you know
, and uh, you have to respectthat.
Sure, if it's your job, that'sgot to be your priority.
Yes, but uh, if I were to justabstractly say that mushrooms
typically on this day and yoursystem for 24 hours, you know

(01:51:47):
that might be some informationthat might get utilized, but
it's, you know, throw that outthere for for those who would
consider it.

Speaker 1 (01:51:55):
Well, it takes a specific kind of panel to even
find and even air.

Speaker 2 (01:51:59):
Aereo-polical testing is is pretty, pretty intense.
It's like 90 days for most,most stuff, so, but those are
extremely expensive to uhemployers.

Speaker 1 (01:52:08):
Well you, heard it, you heard it, heard it from the
nurse.
I'm not condoning anything.

Speaker 2 (01:52:11):
He's not condoning anything, you know.
I'm just telling you how longit may may not stay in there.

Speaker 1 (01:52:15):
He's just giving out factual information, so I'm here
for him.
That's what he's here for.

Speaker 2 (01:52:21):
Anything else?
No, man, i think we're good togo Cool.

Speaker 1 (01:52:25):
Well, uh, I think this wraps up this episode of
the podcast And I think, uh, I'mnot sure what we're going to
talk about next time.
There there's a couple ofthings brewing.
So I, uh I posted a reels um, Ithink it was last week that got
I don't kind of like riled somefeathers and do I talk to you

(01:52:45):
about it?
Like the suffering and silenceversus like carrying your
burdens and people.
I don't think like the termsuffer in silence, Yeah, Uh, but
then it got, he started thiswhole other chain of thought of
you see, on social media there'sa lot of people, There's almost
this cult like following in,like you know, seek discomfort

(01:53:06):
and do this, you know, andthat's going to like and I think
people confuse the messaging,Like I did a nice bath for three
minutes, So suddenly you'regoing to be resilient in life
And it's like it's not the waythat works, man, You know.
So that might be something wehave to dive into.
Okay, Sure, You know.
So, um, all right, Hey, checkout Norse fitness for all your
workout shit, your supplements.
You want some cool stuff Thatabandoned modern culture.

(01:53:29):
Lots of people have been reallydigging on that.
The band, pretty fucking sweetman, Yeah, The shirt, the flag.
Yeah, Use code either machineto save some money Um.

Speaker 2 (01:53:37):
so when this podcast is available, you can find it on
Spotify iTunes, google Play,fucking, just a web.

Speaker 1 (01:53:45):
Yeah, yeah Yeah, pod bean, pod chaser, like literally
wherever you can fight podcasts, you're going to be able to
find this podcast.
I think all of us are going tobe able to find it.
We're going to be able to findthis podcast.
I thank all of you, we thankall of you for, for, yes, for
listening, for downloading.
Please, uh, tell, tell yourfriends, tell the family.

(01:54:05):
If you enjoy this podcast,share it so we can, we can keep
a, so we can keep making themand sharing them and coming up
with cool stuff to talk about.
And I think it's only going toget better from here.
Yeah, um, i think in the comingweeks we're going to have a, a
proper studio.
That room's going to have likea no shit setup to, where I

(01:54:26):
think we'll start introducingsome video.
What do you think?

Speaker 2 (01:54:29):
That sounds fucking cool, man.
Yeah, dude, cause we're goingto have some cool background
imagery.
I mean, who doesn't want to seethis sexy microphone man?
I know man.

Speaker 1 (01:54:35):
I don't know.
Thanks bro, i appreciate that.
Thanks, you know, it's why youhad to bastard over here.
Hey look, first of all, i'm asilver fox, so let's get that
fucking straight.
All right, i'm a silver fox.

Speaker 2 (01:54:48):
Silver fox baby.
Yeah, So it's called.

Speaker 1 (01:54:51):
All right, until next time, take care of yourselves.
Good, good, good couple weeks.
Yeah, if you have questions onpsychedelics, please feel free
to reach out.
My DMs are open.
If you have any questions orconcerns or any kind of input on
the podcast, reach out.
And uh, yeah, until next time.
Until next time, guys, Untilnext time.

(01:55:11):
Until next time.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 30- Unlocking the Mind: Exploring the Potential of Psychedelics and Mental Health