August 12, 2024 • 35 mins
Episode 331: When you run a heavy-duty parts and service business you are often faced with decisions where you have to weigh two competing things and make tough decisions. The trucking industry faces this on a national level. With so many new environmental regulations coming in, can the heavy-duty industry really come up with new technologies and products that are good for the economy AND the environment?
The refrigerant industry is facing this right now. Our featured guest, Adam Kimmel from Orbia, demonstrates the innovation required to find solutions that meet competing needs. He also discusses how their refrigerant brand Koura is meeting the environmental benchmarks without compromising performance.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jamie Irvine (00:00):
You're listening to the Heavy-Duty Parts Report.
I'm your host, jamie Irvin, andthis is the place where we have
conversations that empowerheavy-duty people.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Heavy-Duty Parts Report.
I'm your host, jamie Irvin.
In this episode, we're going totalk about how, when you run a
heavy-duty parts and or servicebusiness, you're often faced
(00:23):
with tough decisions where youhave different competing things
that you have to try to sortthrough, and we're going to talk
about how many of our clientsrun into that and how they deal
with it.
We're also going to talk abouthow the trucking industry as a
whole continues to face thesekinds of situations where you
have competing things withdifferent needs going head to
(00:45):
head.
So, for example, when we lookat environmental regulations
against the needs of both theeconomy and the financial needs
of the trucking company,sometimes those things are at
odds.
So how do you deal with that?
Our interview talksspecifically about what's
happening in the refrigerantside of the business and we're
going to look at theirinnovations and how they're
(01:07):
handling those two competingneeds.
We're going to round out ourconversation with another
edition of that's Not Heavy Duty, where we're going to talk
about a trucking company thatreally failed to balance these
needs, made the wrong choice andnow it is causing a lot of
problems.
So let's get started.
So the question about theenvironment or the economy makes
(01:28):
me think about how many timesin business we are faced with
different choices that have tobe made, tough choices that have
to be made, and we have tobalance out two very, very
different, competing things thatare really at odds with one
another, and somehow you have tofind a balance point where you
make the right decision but youstill get the result that you're
(01:51):
looking for.
Now, when you look at your heavyduty business and many of the
clients we have, when we talk tothem, they're often dealing
with competing things Like, forexample, do we invest now or do
we downsize?
They might be looking at do wedo traditional marketing or
digital marketing.
They might be looking atwhether they sell only to B2B or
(02:13):
if they also include anotherchannel where they sell directly
to the consumer in a B2Cfashion.
Again, these things kind ofcompete with one another for
resources, time, energy and theyproduce different results and
sometimes you can do a bit ofboth.
Sometimes you have to make ahard decision and say, no, we're
going to prioritize one overthe other.
(02:33):
When we're consulting with ourclients, we work through a
step-by-step evaluation to helppeople come to the right choice.
So let's break down those threeoptions Invest or downsize.
We've experienced a freightrecession in the trucking
industry and a lot of ourclients are down on part sales.
(02:54):
They're down on service becausethe fleets are down.
So at that point, when you seedeclining revenue, increasing
costs, you reach an inflectionpoint.
Do we double down and invest inour current strategy and keep
going, or do we decide to makesome significant changes and
maybe even downsize ouroperation?
(03:15):
You can't usually do both.
Usually this is a one or theother and you have to pick.
Now you might be able to findways to do a small amount of
downsizing to conserve cash,while preserving the majority of
your cash to continue to investin the strategy.
But again you're going to haveto prioritize one decision or
(03:35):
the other.
The traditional and digitalmarketing scenario is one we run
into a lot.
People often have this viewthat this is a zero-sum game.
Either we stick with ourtraditional marketing methods
trade shows, print materials,things of that nature or we
abandon all of that and gostraight into a digital-only
marketing strategy.
The reality is, in thissituation you can definitely do
(03:59):
both, but you have to look atwhat gives you the best return
on investment, because sometimesa 50 50 split means you don't
have enough resources to doeither option well, and so
sometimes a 70 30 or an 80 20split is the right way to go.
The other thing about thisparticular situation is
sometimes you have to do a bitof a sliding scale where today
(04:21):
we're only going to put maybe10% of our marketing budget
towards digital, but next yearit's going to be 20.
The year after that it'll be 30, and we're going to try to grow
the marketing budget as a whole.
So there's different approachesthat need to be taken.
And finally, with that lastexample, b2b or B2C.
This is a very difficultdecision for a lot of
manufacturers to make.
(04:41):
If their distributors anddealerships are not giving them
enough revenue, the temptationis to switch to a B2C model, but
there is so many issues withthat and it is almost impossible
to navigate channel conflictsuccessfully without losing some
customers.
Sometimes you can also spend alot of money chasing end users
(05:03):
and they don't buy from youeither.
So sometimes we're looking atthe wrong thing.
Maybe it's not an issue of thechannel.
It's an issue of product marketfit, and so this is where
having a real strategic mindsetis so important.
At the Heavy Duty ConsultingCorporation, we help our clients
through these kinds ofdecisions all the time.
We use a very logic-based,methodical approach to help
(05:26):
people and we give them aperspective, because you know,
when you're in your businessyou're so close to it.
That old expression of notbeing able to see the forest for
the trees kind of applies, andfor us we are able to bring a
more dispassionate view.
We are one step removed and wecan look at things from a wider
angle and give you perspective.
So if you'd like to meet withour experts to talk about this,
(05:49):
you can head over toheavydutypartsreportcom.
In the top menu there's aconsulting button.
Press that button, it'll takeyou right through to our
consulting website and you canbook an appointment with us.
Now, the trucking industry as awhole faces these kinds of
decisions all the time.
One such scenario where thisdecision really comes to the
forefront is when you are tryingto balance the environmental
(06:13):
versus the economic needs ofboth the society at large and
the economy at large, and alsothe individual needs of specific
trucking companies.
After the break, we're going tohave an interview where we're
going to discuss this in moredetail, and our featured guest
in this episode is a greatexample of how, if you take an
(06:33):
innovative approach, you cansometimes solve these problems
and bring something to themarket that really satisfies
both ends of the spectrum Inthis case, environmental and
economics.
So stay tuned, we're going tohave a quick break and when we
get back we'll share thatinterview with you.
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We're back from the break.
Okay, it's time for ourfeatured guest interview.
(08:20):
I'd like you to listen in as Italk to Orbia about their
refrigerants.
We're going to talk in thisinterview all about the changing
regulations, the impact on theenvironment that some of the
products that were used in thepast had, the way things are
going in the trucking industryand where we're headed in the
near future, and how thisinnovative company has brought
forth solutions that really helpempower the trucking industry
(08:45):
to achieve the environmentalbenchmark set by the regulations
but, at the same time, maintainan economy of scale or the
economics to support theirbusiness.
My guest today is Adam Kimmel.
He is the Senior Manager ofBusiness Development at Orbia
Now.
Adam is an R&D and businessdevelopment leader with over 20
years of experience in processdesign, product marketing,
(09:09):
research and new productdevelopment in chemical and
mechanical engineering.
He leverages his experience towork with customers to implement
the best thermal managementsolution for their applications.
Now do you see why I wanted tohave him on the show.
Adam, welcome to the Heavy-DutyParts Report.
So glad to have you here.
Adam Kimmel (09:28):
Jamie, pleasure to be here.
Thanks so much for having me on.
Jamie Irvine (09:30):
So let's talk a little bit about Orbia and what
it really does for its customers.
So just tell me a little bitabout Orbia.
Adam Kimmel (09:40):
Sure, I guess.
Simply, orbia is seeking toadvance life around the world.
I mean, I think that's a noblegoal that many companies have,
and they do that through a lotof different ways.
I mean, they viewsustainability as central to
everything we do.
No innovation is worthwhile ifit harms the environment, if you
(10:05):
leave the earth in a worse spotthan you found it for the
pursuit of solving some nearerterm problem.
That doesn't align with who wewant to be.
So we look at it as how can weleverage sustainability not as a
hurdle to clear but as a weaponin the arsenal to help the
world and leave the earth in abetter spot.
So that's our holistic missionand Cora is our refrigerants
(10:28):
brand.
We have a floor and energymaterials division that we call
externally Cora, and so throughthe refrigerant end of things,
that's where I come in.
Jamie Irvine (10:37):
Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
So let's talk about thecustomers that you serve in the
trucking industry More so.
So I'd like to know, like, whoare they and what is the
situation they find themselvesin oftentimes when you, when you
end up coming and talking tothem yeah.
Adam Kimmel (10:53):
So for the majority of my career, certainly there's
been one product.
It's been 134a.
So it's easy.
It's uh, how many trucks do youhave?
What's the charge size?
You know kind of how much canwe put you down for?
It was a transaction.
Now there's environmentalregulations that are driving no
pun intended a lot of differentkinds of decisions, so it's a
(11:16):
matter of all right.
Well, you can't just use 134Abecause there isn't going to be
enough.
So, as a matter of fact, inJanuary there was a phase down
step where 30% of this carbondioxide equivalent was stepped
down, as they call it.
So there's less carbon dioxideequivalent available, and what
that means is refrigerants like134A that have a higher global
(11:38):
warming potential, which is kindof a measure at how much heat
it can absorb.
There's a limit to how much ofthat GWP you can consume, so
there's a need all of a suddenfor low GWP refrigerants that
are going to be more compliantwith these regulations.
The problem heavy duty sees isbecause it's been so long.
They're looking for answers andhelp here.
(11:58):
I mean, this is a real problem.
It's a problem worth solving,for sure, but a lot of folks
aren't sure where to turn.
What are the existing andavailable solutions and you know
how do I learn about anynuances to the system that it's
going to take to implement them?
Jamie Irvine (12:13):
Yeah, and I think what a lot of people are
concerned with is that, while weare trying to grapple with the
impact we're having on our ownenvironment, at the same time we
don't want to destroy oureconomy, which, can be argued,
has a negative impact on ourenvironment as well, because the
poorer people are, the morethat often they turn to carbon
(12:37):
producing things that are goingto just make the problem worse.
So, from a trucking perspective, you're looking at it and
you're saying, okay, there's allthese changes happening related
to policies and certainmandates, and now, all of a
sudden, I have to change mystandard operating procedures
with maintenance on my trucks,and so what is the potential
(12:58):
economic impact that these kindsof heavy-duty trucking fleets
face as they try to navigatethis transition?
Adam Kimmel (13:05):
Well, the cost is always going to be a constraint.
It's going to be a new product.
The supply chain isn't alwaysgoing to be mature, so that's a
Well, it may be, but that's aconcern and a risk, I would say.
So a lot of times folks canfeel like, well, we're being
sort of forced into a positionto make us pay more, without
really any ability to refutethat.
(13:27):
So I think some of the optionsbecome well, what if we
fundamentally re-looked at whatis the kind of material
available?
Is one single molecule going tobe enough, or is there some
combination or some other way ofapproaching this that will
allow us to mitigate somesocioeconomic pain while solving
(13:49):
the problem?
Can we have our cake and eat ittoo?
And so I think changing the waypeople look and think about
thermal management solutions andrefrigerants in general is
really an important piece, andeducation is the best way to do
that.
We've got to understand whatare the levers, what are the
constraints, and if one materialcan't do everything anymore,
(14:09):
how can we combine theseexisting materials in a way that
can deliver all the benefits weneed?
Jamie Irvine (14:14):
Let's go deep on this.
I really want to hear moreabout the new options.
Don't hold back.
We got smart people listeningto the show.
We really want to gain a deeperlevel of understanding of
what's going on in thermalmanagement, and we want you to
tell us.
So feel free to go as deep asyou want.
Adam Kimmel (14:34):
Open the fire hose.
Is that what I, what I'mhearing?
Jamie Irvine (14:37):
yeah, let's find out what this is all about yeah.
Adam Kimmel (14:40):
So at cora what we've, uh, concluded is that one
material in fact can't doeverything anymore.
We see blends as the enabler ofthis iron triangle good, fast
and cheap.
Everybody you know when I wasan early engineer I would get
the older folks would come byand go well, you can have two
and not three, and then you knowfor the next hour they'd walk
(15:01):
me through the scenarios of eachof those two.
But with blends you can kind ofsay all right, well, we can
design whatever performance weneed to hit to make sure that
it's parity, but ideally better.
So for electrification you candesign something that's higher
efficiency, which helps withvehicle range, which is one of
the critical performancecriteria For fuel economy.
(15:23):
It also is impactful as far asthe cost position.
What if we constructed groupsof these materials, of
commercially available buildingblock refrigerants that are used
in other industries?
So a supply chain all of asudden is protected.
So from a fast standpoint,these are already a mature
(15:43):
supply chain that we're puttingtogether, blending and then
using in a new application.
So it's kind of a commercial,off-the-shelf product used in a
customized way.
You're getting the benefit ofscale, economy and customization
together and the biggestbenefit then is the cost
position potentially, becausethen you can use this commercial
off-the-shelf approach todesign blends that are more
(16:06):
cost-effective.
So you can decrease your costposition tens of percent or more
potentially and have a higherperforming, easy-to-access
solution.
So there are two primary blendsthat we use to do this.
The first is 456A, so the wayto think about it is it's a
three component blend and thethree components are 1234ZEE,
(16:29):
134a and R32.
So the primary building blockcomponent is ZE, but it's 50% or
45% 134A.
So it's sort of like we'vegiven the industry the ability
to wave a magic wand and halfthe amount of global warming
impact with the same kg ofrefrigerant used, same
(16:52):
performance.
The cost is a question becauseof the evolving everything, but
it's intended to be on the sameorder from a cost perspective.
So you're getting the benefitof a lower GWP and sacrificing
very little else.
So that's been one that we'veseen, especially in heavy duty.
A ton of interest, and what Iwant to make sure people know
(17:13):
about is they get constrained.
One of the problems with highglobal warming materials is that
these phase downs include allsegments.
So the residential HVAC segmentconsumes most of these with
410A.
So all of a sudden the 410Ademand is eating into quota that
won't be available necessarilyfor mobile segments.
So even if mobile doeseverything right, they still may
(17:35):
not have access to as much ofthe quota as they want.
So that's another nuance herethat's important to know.
So we want to give people theability to pull a lever, get the
same cooling and the same kgsof refrigerant used with a lower
environmental impact.
The newest one is reallyexciting.
We launched both of thesereally last last fall, but 444A
(17:56):
is a similar blend to 4568.
So 444A is a ZE-based blendthat has 152A and R32.
So they're similar.
There's just 134A in 456 and152A in 444.
But this is a directreplacement for 1234YF and so,
(18:17):
in addition to the cost benefitthat we are anticipating due to
the building block materials,the performance is significantly
higher.
One of the biggest drawbacksthat I've heard people that have
used YF use is oh, there's a 5%to 10% performance degradation
(18:56):
in some conditions, and so Iwould get this.
I want my 10% back kind ofcomment.
And so I would get this.
I want my 10% back kind, whichis huge again for electric
vehicles and fuel economy.
You're getting a performancebenefit at a potentially lower
cost position and it's a drop-into YF systems, so it uses the
same compressor, the same heatexchangers, the oils, all of the
(19:18):
system architecture can berepurposed.
Jamie Irvine (19:20):
So you're getting all the benefit with very, very
little of the risk refrigerantperformed over time, as engines
aged, as vehicles were inservice for, let's say, upwards
(19:47):
of 10 or even 15 years.
How do we know that thereformulation that you guys have
done and have brought to marketis going to, let's say,
maintain the same kind ofperformance and not have any
adverse effects when we pushthese vehicles out 7, 8, 9, 10
years?
Adam Kimmel (20:01):
Well, like any new product, there's a robust
validation NPD process that wego through.
So, from a compatibilityperspective, from a fleet
testing perspective, there'saccelerated testing that you can
do to simulate end-of-life orintermediate to end-of-life
conditions.
We partner with our OEMcustomer partners to do this
kind of testing and theythemselves have an even more
(20:23):
robust I would say Well, they'reboth very robust, put it that
way but MPD process to wherethey put it through the paces of
their specific application.
So we're handing it to themwith fully validated
compatibility and some of thepreliminary fleet testing
results to give them confidencethat the option is worth their
time to test.
And then they put it throughthe paces as an independent
(20:46):
third party.
So we don't have to go trust us.
We've done the testinginternally at our lab.
It's here's our OEM partnerthat everyone would feel good
and trust and make the resultsavailable.
And then we can standardizethis at SAE and other groups to
say, well, here are some of theconstraints.
And okay, if it's a mild,flammable A2L, here's some of
the considerations to maintainIf there's a blend.
(21:07):
Now you know, here are some ofthe things to consider and
there'll be standards there tohelp frame that, to make sure
that you know the guidance isthere for those using it sure
that the guidance is there forthose using it.
Jamie Irvine (21:21):
If I'm going to go with 456 or 444, can I just
deplete my R134A supply and flipa switch and then, when that is
depleted, I can switch over?
I'm not going to have anycompatibility issues.
I can just keep running myfleet the way I've been running
it.
Adam Kimmel (21:33):
Yeah, I mean, that's the way they're designed.
I think it's important to keepseparate that.
There's sort of a 134Aarchitecture and a 1234YF
architecture.
So if you cross those two,that's where you'd need to do
some system modifications,potentially because of the A2L
flammability.
But if you're putting 456 intoa 134A system, it's basically
(21:53):
half 134A and it's designed tobe a direct replacement.
So best practice is to fullyevacuate and then recharge.
But that's it.
That's it.
Yeah, yeah, and same story for444A and 1234YF.
It's possible to mix them andthere's actually an R number
that was defined to do that, 488, which is a mixture of 444A
(22:14):
components and 1234YF.
But again, best practice is toget that YF out of there and
then recharge.
But the compatibility and allof the performance elements is a
direct replacement.
Jamie Irvine (22:27):
So if you're selling to the fleets and you're
talking them through, they haveto plan for that complete
evacuation.
But they could plan that arounda typical maintenance event
where they're not incurring anyadditional downtime.
It's just part of themaintenance plan for that
vehicle and allows them toswitch over.
I guess all they'd have to keeptrack of is then which units
(22:48):
they've done, which units stillneed to be done.
Once they're all done, theydon't have to worry about it
anymore.
They just keep buying the 456.
And if they were in an R134Aarchitecture, away they go.
Adam Kimmel (22:59):
Yeah, and I think some of the things that to make
sure to keep that straight wouldbe a label on the where the
refrigerant is on the vehicle,and then also, like we recommend
having a dedicated servicemachine for that.
So take a YF machine dedicatedto 444A and then you know, that
way you wouldn't be mixing, soyou'd know what you had, I guess
.
Jamie Irvine (23:18):
Or in our, in the case of our 134, it would be the
456.
Adam Kimmel (23:22):
Exactly yeah.
Have a dedicated machine, andwe're also working with some
external partners for theservice machines and the
refrigerant identification tomake sure that we're able to
detect in case we'd need to.
So that work is ongoing, butit's something that we're not
(23:43):
doing in a vacuum.
We're partnering with theentire HVAC industry to make
sure that the architecture isthere and the service equipment
is in place so that thesedisruptive and transformative
solutions can be used andimplemented in a seamless way.
Robert Leonard.
Jamie Irvine (23:50):
So give us an example of one of your fleet
customers and maybe you'reselling this through
distribution, but eventually itgot to the fleet level and they
had success with this.
Talk me through one of thoseexamples.
Adam Kimmel (24:03):
Sure, so they're relatively new products, so
there's not a ton of data.
But what we have gotten backwe've done two things.
We've upscaled a few employeecars so there's 36, I think,
employee vehicles that we've put456A in and got some
qualitative feedback and we'vesaid be objective, really give
us the honest feedback so we canshare it out.
(24:24):
And what the feedback seemed toindicate was that, by and large
, it performed exactly asexpected.
A few had said it performedeven better, which I think for a
service, if it performed thesame, that would clearly meet
expectations and if it were amore favorable cost in the case
of a YF based replacement, thatwould be even better.
The response was as we wouldhave hoped and expected from the
(24:48):
internal customers.
We also have about 20 or moreexternal customers that have
been purchasing 456.
I believe they're in Italy.
Again, limited feedback, butsome of what we have heard is
that they're excited about theopportunity because it can
mitigate some of the illegaltrade and things going on.
I mean this constraint forcesdesperation.
(25:09):
If you can't get therefrigerant and you're too hot,
what are you going to do?
And so, in absence of options,it increases the risk profile of
something illegal.
So they're excited to have alever to pull as far as a half
you know, half the GWP or loweropportunity and I'm very
confident that the performancefeedback will be similar to what
(25:29):
our employees found is that itperforms at, or better than,
what we'd expect.
Jamie Irvine (25:33):
Yeah, and these constraints that are being
applied here in North America.
I think we're very earlytalking about this here on the
Heavy-Duty Parts Report, but Ithink this episode is going to
age very well.
I think it's going to becomemore important for people to
listen to this episode as timegoes on, as we get closer and
closer to the date set for theserefrigerant constraints and as
(25:54):
those phase downs continue tohappen.
So if you want people to justremember one thing from today's
conversation, what's that onething?
Adam Kimmel (26:02):
I'll give you one thing, with several avenues so I
can make it longer, but it'sthat there are options.
Now you don't have to feel likeyou're being shoved into a
condition where you have nooption other than a high-cost,
limited available solution thatis driven by some government
(26:23):
partnership with the privatesector.
That's not at all what this is.
It's an incentive and a mandateto change behaviors to reduce
global warming potential.
It's the result of us learning,and we learned about ozone
depleting potential.
We got rid of chlorine inrefrigerants.
Sure enough, the ozone repaireditself.
Now the same thing's happening.
(26:44):
I mean, combustion is kickingcarbon into the atmosphere.
Refrigerant leakage is anotherbig component of that.
We need to get HFCs out of theatmosphere.
We need to make these moleculesmore available for hydroxyl
attack in the atmosphere so thatthey break apart in days, not
years, and these blends areoffering really good
(27:06):
opportunities to do that.
But it is possible to haveoptions without skyrocketing the
cost and having them be directreplacement.
So it's easy to implement.
It won't take time, maybe.
The last caveat I'll put is the30% phase down happened in
January of this year.
The next phase down will be in2029.
So from a validation standpoint, the window is open if there is
(27:29):
a need to validate technology,system architecture or anything
else to make sure that you're inplace for that next phase down,
because another 30% on top ofthe 40% already is significant
and that 29 phase down reallyfeels like the level that you're
going to need to change beforethat happens.
Jamie Irvine (27:46):
Agreed, and, as you said, maybe there's a way to
have our cake and eat it too.
And if we could just figure outhow to have cake and not have
the calories, then we'd reallybe winning.
Well, yeah, I think if youdon't have the right refrigerant
, you could sweat the caloriesoff maybe.
Adam Kimmel (28:01):
I'm not sure, but that's what we want.
I mean, options are good forthe consumer and a challenge is
we as manufacturers.
It's just a good thing foreverybody and I think options
are the right way to go, sowe're excited to bring these to
market.
I mean, we know that there'squestions.
One of the questions that weoften get is well, the blends
have glide.
They're a zeotropic blend.
(28:22):
How do we know what thecomposition is?
The composition is all over theplace.
What we've seen is, even insome of our employee cars, if
there's a leak situation, thecomposition still stays within
spec, even with leaks up to 25%or up to 30%.
So I'll say can't guaranteethat for sure, but the idea that
(28:43):
any leak is going to wildlyimpact the composition.
We just haven't observed thatin practice, and so, yeah, more
testing is certainly going to bedone there.
But I wouldn't let the factthat there is glide in these
blends scare anybody away fromusing them.
I mean, they are as good asthey seem, they're performing
well, they're stable, they'reavailable and they're exciting.
Jamie Irvine (29:01):
You've been listening to the Heavy-Duty
Parts Report.
I'm your host, Jamie Irvin, andwe've been speaking with Adam
Kimmel, Senior Manager ofBusiness Development at Orbia.
If you would like to learn moreabout Cora, go to coraglobalcom
.
That's the brand that Orbia hasfor these products.
Adam, thank you so much forbeing on the Heavy-Duty Parts
Report.
Really glad to talk to youtoday.
Adam Kimmel (29:22):
Thanks so much, Jamie.
Pleasure Anytime.
Jamie Irvine (29:24):
Well, I hope you enjoyed our interview with Orbia
, learning about how they arebalancing the needs between the
environmental side of theequation and the economic side
of the equation.
If you're interested inlearning more, make sure you go
to our show notes and click thelinks to get access to all of
the resources that they haveavailable.
It's time for our final segmentof this episode, that's Not
(29:47):
Heavy Duty.
In this edition of that's NotHeavy Duty, I wanted to talk
about a fleet, a specific fleet,that was faced with a decision
of what they were going toprioritize the environment or
the economics of their business.
And in this particular example,they didn't do what's heavy
duty.
They did the wrong thing, theymade the wrong choice.
(30:08):
So let me review it with you.
First of all, it comes from myold stomping grounds, the
Vancouver area of BritishColumbia in Western Canada, and
according to a Vancouver Sunarticle, there is a rural valley
outside of Mission that hasbecome a dump site for excavated
soil and construction waste,with the owners of 14 properties
(30:31):
issuing stop work orders overthe past year for illegally
accepting fill.
Now, in one case, the owner ofa trucking company purchased a
blueberry field and then starteddumping hundreds of loads of
material containing rebar,concrete and plastic on that
land.
In June and again in August,british Columbia's Agricultural
(30:54):
Land Commission issued a stopwork order on the property
against the owner of StrandTrucking.
This is an Abbasford-basedtrucking outfit, and this was
done after an inspector observedtheir trucks dumping at this
site illegally.
Now, in the months since then,neighbors say the activity
hasn't really stopped.
I quote Robert Spiller where hesays they've destroyed the land
(31:17):
.
Robert Spiller, who lives inthe Hatsik Valley for 35 years,
says you can't do anything aboutit and his last name is not a
pun, it being Spiller.
The BC law in that area forbidsthe dumping of construction
material on land reserved forfarming unless approved by the
(31:37):
Land Commission, and the reasonis is that this rocky,
low-quality dirt that'sexcavated from construction
sites across the region is notgood for the environmental
health of the soil on thisfarming land, and so that's why,
by law, it needs to be taken toan authorized facility for
disposing of this.
(31:58):
Now obviously this truckingcompany is trying to save those
disposal fees by just dumping iton this land, and that's
illegal.
So since February of last year,the Land Commission has issued
stop work orders for 13additional properties on or near
Stave Lake Road, noting thatSRAM Trucking has been
(32:19):
associated with the depositingof fill on other properties in
the vicinity withoutauthorization.
So this is a real classicsituation where an individual or
a group of people associatedwith this trucking company were
faced with environmentalregulations and what they chose
to do was to try to skirt thoseand to do the wrong thing really
(32:40):
, at the end of the day.
So sure they might've made somemoney doing this, maybe a lot
of money but at the expense ofthe ecological and environmental
integrity of that farmland.
So this is reallycounterproductive to, in my
opinion, the heavy-dutyperspective.
If you're going to be aheavy-duty person, you're going
(33:02):
to make these tough choices, butyou're not going to completely
sacrifice one thing for theother, any more than we would
completely submit tounreasonable environmental
regulations that are imposedupon us by, maybe, a government
that has a real ideological bend.
Instead, we would go to ourrepresentatives, we would
(33:24):
express our concerns, we wouldjoin the Trucking Association
and lobby to have those lawschanged.
We don't just take unreasonableenvironmental regulations, but
we also wouldn't sacrifice theactual environment just to make
a buck, a quick buck, and so Ithink this is really important.
This whole episode has beenabout balancing these competing
(33:46):
needs of businesses in heavyduty.
I think if we're going to be aheavy duty person, we're going
to have respect for the land,we're going to have respect for
the land, we're going to haverespect for our environment.
We're also going to putourselves in a position where we
can compete and we can makemoney as well, and it's really
really tough to balance theneeds of all of these things.
So I hope that gives you someinsight.
(34:08):
I hope that gives you somethings to think about.
Really appreciate you listeningto this episode.
I just want to remind you thatin a couple of weeks, brake
Safety Week does begin.
If you haven't already, go backand listen to episode 325.
Links are in the show noteswhere you can review my
interview with a brake supplierwhere we talked about what you
(34:30):
need to know about Brake SafetyWeek.
As always, I want to encourageyou to go to
heavydutypartsreportcom and hitthat follow button.
Sign up to our weekly email soyou never miss out on our
content.
If you'd like to listen to thepodcast on a podcast player of
your choice, you can send us atext message by going to the
show notes and clicking the link, you can hit the follow button
for free and if it gives you theoption, give us a five-star
(34:52):
rating and review.
And finally, if you likewatching the video version, make
sure you pound that subscribebutton on youtube and hit the
bell notification so you nevermiss out.
Thank you once again forsupporting all that we do at
heavy duty parts report and, asalways, I want to encourage you
to be heavy duty.
You're listening to the Heavy-Duty Parts Report.
I'm your host, jamie Irvin, andthis is the place where we have
conversations that empowerheavy-duty people.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Heavy-Duty Parts Report.
I'm your host, jamie Irvin.
In this episode, we're going totalk about how, when you run a
heavy-duty parts and or servicebusiness, you're often faced
(00:23):
with tough decisions where youhave different competing things
that you have to try to sortthrough, and we're going to talk
about how many of our clientsrun into that and how they deal
with it.
We're also going to talk abouthow the trucking industry as a
whole continues to face thesekinds of situations where you
have competing things withdifferent needs going head to
(00:45):
head.
So, for example, when we lookat environmental regulations
against the needs of both theeconomy and the financial needs
of the trucking company,sometimes those things are at
odds.
So how do you deal with that?
Our interview talksspecifically about what's
happening in the refrigerantside of the business and we're
going to look at theirinnovations and how they're
(01:07):
handling those two competingneeds.
We're going to round out ourconversation with another
edition of that's Not Heavy Duty, where we're going to talk
about a trucking company thatreally failed to balance these
needs, made the wrong choice andnow it is causing a lot of
problems.
So let's get started.
So the question about theenvironment or the economy makes
(01:28):
me think about how many timesin business we are faced with
different choices that have tobe made, tough choices that have
to be made, and we have tobalance out two very, very
different, competing things thatare really at odds with one
another, and somehow you have tofind a balance point where you
make the right decision but youstill get the result that you're
(01:51):
looking for.
Now, when you look at your heavyduty business and many of the
clients we have, when we talk tothem, they're often dealing
with competing things Like, forexample, do we invest now or do
we downsize?
They might be looking at do wedo traditional marketing or
digital marketing.
They might be looking atwhether they sell only to B2B or
(02:13):
if they also include anotherchannel where they sell directly
to the consumer in a B2Cfashion.
Again, these things kind ofcompete with one another for
resources, time, energy and theyproduce different results and
sometimes you can do a bit ofboth.
Sometimes you have to make ahard decision and say, no, we're
going to prioritize one overthe other.
(02:33):
When we're consulting with ourclients, we work through a
step-by-step evaluation to helppeople come to the right choice.
So let's break down those threeoptions Invest or downsize.
We've experienced a freightrecession in the trucking
industry and a lot of ourclients are down on part sales.
(02:54):
They're down on service becausethe fleets are down.
So at that point, when you seedeclining revenue, increasing
costs, you reach an inflectionpoint.
Do we double down and invest inour current strategy and keep
going, or do we decide to makesome significant changes and
maybe even downsize ouroperation?
(03:15):
You can't usually do both.
Usually this is a one or theother and you have to pick.
Now you might be able to findways to do a small amount of
downsizing to conserve cash,while preserving the majority of
your cash to continue to investin the strategy.
But again you're going to haveto prioritize one decision or
(03:35):
the other.
The traditional and digitalmarketing scenario is one we run
into a lot.
People often have this viewthat this is a zero-sum game.
Either we stick with ourtraditional marketing methods
trade shows, print materials,things of that nature or we
abandon all of that and gostraight into a digital-only
marketing strategy.
The reality is, in thissituation you can definitely do
(03:59):
both, but you have to look atwhat gives you the best return
on investment, because sometimesa 50 50 split means you don't
have enough resources to doeither option well, and so
sometimes a 70 30 or an 80 20split is the right way to go.
The other thing about thisparticular situation is
sometimes you have to do a bitof a sliding scale where today
(04:21):
we're only going to put maybe10% of our marketing budget
towards digital, but next yearit's going to be 20.
The year after that it'll be 30, and we're going to try to grow
the marketing budget as a whole.
So there's different approachesthat need to be taken.
And finally, with that lastexample, b2b or B2C.
This is a very difficultdecision for a lot of
manufacturers to make.
(04:41):
If their distributors anddealerships are not giving them
enough revenue, the temptationis to switch to a B2C model, but
there is so many issues withthat and it is almost impossible
to navigate channel conflictsuccessfully without losing some
customers.
Sometimes you can also spend alot of money chasing end users
(05:03):
and they don't buy from youeither.
So sometimes we're looking atthe wrong thing.
Maybe it's not an issue of thechannel.
It's an issue of product marketfit, and so this is where
having a real strategic mindsetis so important.
At the Heavy Duty ConsultingCorporation, we help our clients
through these kinds ofdecisions all the time.
We use a very logic-based,methodical approach to help
(05:26):
people and we give them aperspective, because you know,
when you're in your businessyou're so close to it.
That old expression of notbeing able to see the forest for
the trees kind of applies, andfor us we are able to bring a
more dispassionate view.
We are one step removed and wecan look at things from a wider
angle and give you perspective.
So if you'd like to meet withour experts to talk about this,
(05:49):
you can head over toheavydutypartsreportcom.
In the top menu there's aconsulting button.
Press that button, it'll takeyou right through to our
consulting website and you canbook an appointment with us.
Now, the trucking industry as awhole faces these kinds of
decisions all the time.
One such scenario where thisdecision really comes to the
forefront is when you are tryingto balance the environmental
(06:13):
versus the economic needs ofboth the society at large and
the economy at large, and alsothe individual needs of specific
trucking companies.
After the break, we're going tohave an interview where we're
going to discuss this in moredetail, and our featured guest
in this episode is a greatexample of how, if you take an
(06:33):
innovative approach, you cansometimes solve these problems
and bring something to themarket that really satisfies
both ends of the spectrum Inthis case, environmental and
economics.
So stay tuned, we're going tohave a quick break and when we
get back we'll share thatinterview with you.
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We're back from the break.
Okay, it's time for ourfeatured guest interview.
(08:20):
I'd like you to listen in as Italk to Orbia about their
refrigerants.
We're going to talk in thisinterview all about the changing
regulations, the impact on theenvironment that some of the
products that were used in thepast had, the way things are
going in the trucking industryand where we're headed in the
near future, and how thisinnovative company has brought
forth solutions that really helpempower the trucking industry
(08:45):
to achieve the environmentalbenchmark set by the regulations
but, at the same time, maintainan economy of scale or the
economics to support theirbusiness.
My guest today is Adam Kimmel.
He is the Senior Manager ofBusiness Development at Orbia
Now.
Adam is an R&D and businessdevelopment leader with over 20
years of experience in processdesign, product marketing,
(09:09):
research and new productdevelopment in chemical and
mechanical engineering.
He leverages his experience towork with customers to implement
the best thermal managementsolution for their applications.
Now do you see why I wanted tohave him on the show.
Adam, welcome to the Heavy-DutyParts Report.
So glad to have you here.
Adam Kimmel (09:28):
Jamie, pleasure to be here.
Thanks so much for having me on.
Jamie Irvine (09:30):
So let's talk a little bit about Orbia and what
it really does for its customers.
So just tell me a little bitabout Orbia.
Adam Kimmel (09:40):
Sure, I guess.
Simply, orbia is seeking toadvance life around the world.
I mean, I think that's a noblegoal that many companies have,
and they do that through a lotof different ways.
I mean, they viewsustainability as central to
everything we do.
No innovation is worthwhile ifit harms the environment, if you
(10:05):
leave the earth in a worse spotthan you found it for the
pursuit of solving some nearerterm problem.
That doesn't align with who wewant to be.
So we look at it as how can weleverage sustainability not as a
hurdle to clear but as a weaponin the arsenal to help the
world and leave the earth in abetter spot.
So that's our holistic missionand Cora is our refrigerants
(10:28):
brand.
We have a floor and energymaterials division that we call
externally Cora, and so throughthe refrigerant end of things,
that's where I come in.
Jamie Irvine (10:37):
Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
So let's talk about thecustomers that you serve in the
trucking industry More so.
So I'd like to know, like, whoare they and what is the
situation they find themselvesin oftentimes when you, when you
end up coming and talking tothem yeah.
Adam Kimmel (10:53):
So for the majority of my career, certainly there's
been one product.
It's been 134a.
So it's easy.
It's uh, how many trucks do youhave?
What's the charge size?
You know kind of how much canwe put you down for?
It was a transaction.
Now there's environmentalregulations that are driving no
pun intended a lot of differentkinds of decisions, so it's a
(11:16):
matter of all right.
Well, you can't just use 134Abecause there isn't going to be
enough.
So, as a matter of fact, inJanuary there was a phase down
step where 30% of this carbondioxide equivalent was stepped
down, as they call it.
So there's less carbon dioxideequivalent available, and what
that means is refrigerants like134A that have a higher global
(11:38):
warming potential, which is kindof a measure at how much heat
it can absorb.
There's a limit to how much ofthat GWP you can consume, so
there's a need all of a suddenfor low GWP refrigerants that
are going to be more compliantwith these regulations.
The problem heavy duty sees isbecause it's been so long.
They're looking for answers andhelp here.
(11:58):
I mean, this is a real problem.
It's a problem worth solving,for sure, but a lot of folks
aren't sure where to turn.
What are the existing andavailable solutions and you know
how do I learn about anynuances to the system that it's
going to take to implement them?
Jamie Irvine (12:13):
Yeah, and I think what a lot of people are
concerned with is that, while weare trying to grapple with the
impact we're having on our ownenvironment, at the same time we
don't want to destroy oureconomy, which, can be argued,
has a negative impact on ourenvironment as well, because the
poorer people are, the morethat often they turn to carbon
(12:37):
producing things that are goingto just make the problem worse.
So, from a trucking perspective, you're looking at it and
you're saying, okay, there's allthese changes happening related
to policies and certainmandates, and now, all of a
sudden, I have to change mystandard operating procedures
with maintenance on my trucks,and so what is the potential
(12:58):
economic impact that these kindsof heavy-duty trucking fleets
face as they try to navigatethis transition?
Adam Kimmel (13:05):
Well, the cost is always going to be a constraint.
It's going to be a new product.
The supply chain isn't alwaysgoing to be mature, so that's a
Well, it may be, but that's aconcern and a risk, I would say.
So a lot of times folks canfeel like, well, we're being
sort of forced into a positionto make us pay more, without
really any ability to refutethat.
(13:27):
So I think some of the optionsbecome well, what if we
fundamentally re-looked at whatis the kind of material
available?
Is one single molecule going tobe enough, or is there some
combination or some other way ofapproaching this that will
allow us to mitigate somesocioeconomic pain while solving
(13:49):
the problem?
Can we have our cake and eat ittoo?
And so I think changing the waypeople look and think about
thermal management solutions andrefrigerants in general is
really an important piece, andeducation is the best way to do
that.
We've got to understand whatare the levers, what are the
constraints, and if one materialcan't do everything anymore,
(14:09):
how can we combine theseexisting materials in a way that
can deliver all the benefits weneed?
Jamie Irvine (14:14):
Let's go deep on this.
I really want to hear moreabout the new options.
Don't hold back.
We got smart people listeningto the show.
We really want to gain a deeperlevel of understanding of
what's going on in thermalmanagement, and we want you to
tell us.
So feel free to go as deep asyou want.
Adam Kimmel (14:34):
Open the fire hose.
Is that what I, what I'mhearing?
Jamie Irvine (14:37):
yeah, let's find out what this is all about yeah.
Adam Kimmel (14:40):
So at cora what we've, uh, concluded is that one
material in fact can't doeverything anymore.
We see blends as the enabler ofthis iron triangle good, fast
and cheap.
Everybody you know when I wasan early engineer I would get
the older folks would come byand go well, you can have two
and not three, and then you knowfor the next hour they'd walk
(15:01):
me through the scenarios of eachof those two.
But with blends you can kind ofsay all right, well, we can
design whatever performance weneed to hit to make sure that
it's parity, but ideally better.
So for electrification you candesign something that's higher
efficiency, which helps withvehicle range, which is one of
the critical performancecriteria For fuel economy.
(15:23):
It also is impactful as far asthe cost position.
What if we constructed groupsof these materials, of
commercially available buildingblock refrigerants that are used
in other industries?
So a supply chain all of asudden is protected.
So from a fast standpoint,these are already a mature
(15:43):
supply chain that we're puttingtogether, blending and then
using in a new application.
So it's kind of a commercial,off-the-shelf product used in a
customized way.
You're getting the benefit ofscale, economy and customization
together and the biggestbenefit then is the cost
position potentially, becausethen you can use this commercial
off-the-shelf approach todesign blends that are more
(16:06):
cost-effective.
So you can decrease your costposition tens of percent or more
potentially and have a higherperforming, easy-to-access
solution.
So there are two primary blendsthat we use to do this.
The first is 456A, so the wayto think about it is it's a
three component blend and thethree components are 1234ZEE,
(16:29):
134a and R32.
So the primary building blockcomponent is ZE, but it's 50% or
45% 134A.
So it's sort of like we'vegiven the industry the ability
to wave a magic wand and halfthe amount of global warming
impact with the same kg ofrefrigerant used, same
(16:52):
performance.
The cost is a question becauseof the evolving everything, but
it's intended to be on the sameorder from a cost perspective.
So you're getting the benefitof a lower GWP and sacrificing
very little else.
So that's been one that we'veseen, especially in heavy duty.
A ton of interest, and what Iwant to make sure people know
(17:13):
about is they get constrained.
One of the problems with highglobal warming materials is that
these phase downs include allsegments.
So the residential HVAC segmentconsumes most of these with
410A.
So all of a sudden the 410Ademand is eating into quota that
won't be available necessarilyfor mobile segments.
So even if mobile doeseverything right, they still may
(17:35):
not have access to as much ofthe quota as they want.
So that's another nuance herethat's important to know.
So we want to give people theability to pull a lever, get the
same cooling and the same kgsof refrigerant used with a lower
environmental impact.
The newest one is reallyexciting.
We launched both of thesereally last last fall, but 444A
(17:56):
is a similar blend to 4568.
So 444A is a ZE-based blendthat has 152A and R32.
So they're similar.
There's just 134A in 456 and152A in 444.
But this is a directreplacement for 1234YF and so,
(18:17):
in addition to the cost benefitthat we are anticipating due to
the building block materials,the performance is significantly
higher.
One of the biggest drawbacksthat I've heard people that have
used YF use is oh, there's a 5%to 10% performance degradation
(18:56):
in some conditions, and so Iwould get this.
I want my 10% back kind ofcomment.
And so I would get this.
I want my 10% back kind, whichis huge again for electric
vehicles and fuel economy.
You're getting a performancebenefit at a potentially lower
cost position and it's a drop-into YF systems, so it uses the
same compressor, the same heatexchangers, the oils, all of the
(19:18):
system architecture can berepurposed.
Jamie Irvine (19:20):
So you're getting all the benefit with very, very
little of the risk refrigerantperformed over time, as engines
aged, as vehicles were inservice for, let's say, upwards
(19:47):
of 10 or even 15 years.
How do we know that thereformulation that you guys have
done and have brought to marketis going to, let's say,
maintain the same kind ofperformance and not have any
adverse effects when we pushthese vehicles out 7, 8, 9, 10
years?
Adam Kimmel (20:01):
Well, like any new product, there's a robust
validation NPD process that wego through.
So, from a compatibilityperspective, from a fleet
testing perspective, there'saccelerated testing that you can
do to simulate end-of-life orintermediate to end-of-life
conditions.
We partner with our OEMcustomer partners to do this
kind of testing and theythemselves have an even more
(20:23):
robust I would say Well, they'reboth very robust, put it that
way but MPD process to wherethey put it through the paces of
their specific application.
So we're handing it to themwith fully validated
compatibility and some of thepreliminary fleet testing
results to give them confidencethat the option is worth their
time to test.
And then they put it throughthe paces as an independent
(20:46):
third party.
So we don't have to go trust us.
We've done the testinginternally at our lab.
It's here's our OEM partnerthat everyone would feel good
and trust and make the resultsavailable.
And then we can standardizethis at SAE and other groups to
say, well, here are some of theconstraints.
And okay, if it's a mild,flammable A2L, here's some of
the considerations to maintainIf there's a blend.
(21:07):
Now you know, here are some ofthe things to consider and
there'll be standards there tohelp frame that, to make sure
that you know the guidance isthere for those using it sure
that the guidance is there forthose using it.
Jamie Irvine (21:21):
If I'm going to go with 456 or 444, can I just
deplete my R134A supply and flipa switch and then, when that is
depleted, I can switch over?
I'm not going to have anycompatibility issues.
I can just keep running myfleet the way I've been running
it.
Adam Kimmel (21:33):
Yeah, I mean, that's the way they're designed.
I think it's important to keepseparate that.
There's sort of a 134Aarchitecture and a 1234YF
architecture.
So if you cross those two,that's where you'd need to do
some system modifications,potentially because of the A2L
flammability.
But if you're putting 456 intoa 134A system, it's basically
(21:53):
half 134A and it's designed tobe a direct replacement.
So best practice is to fullyevacuate and then recharge.
But that's it.
That's it.
Yeah, yeah, and same story for444A and 1234YF.
It's possible to mix them andthere's actually an R number
that was defined to do that, 488, which is a mixture of 444A
(22:14):
components and 1234YF.
But again, best practice is toget that YF out of there and
then recharge.
But the compatibility and allof the performance elements is a
direct replacement.
Jamie Irvine (22:27):
So if you're selling to the fleets and you're
talking them through, they haveto plan for that complete
evacuation.
But they could plan that arounda typical maintenance event
where they're not incurring anyadditional downtime.
It's just part of themaintenance plan for that
vehicle and allows them toswitch over.
I guess all they'd have to keeptrack of is then which units
(22:48):
they've done, which units stillneed to be done.
Once they're all done, theydon't have to worry about it
anymore.
They just keep buying the 456.
And if they were in an R134Aarchitecture, away they go.
Adam Kimmel (22:59):
Yeah, and I think some of the things that to make
sure to keep that straight wouldbe a label on the where the
refrigerant is on the vehicle,and then also, like we recommend
having a dedicated servicemachine for that.
So take a YF machine dedicatedto 444A and then you know, that
way you wouldn't be mixing, soyou'd know what you had, I guess
.
Jamie Irvine (23:18):
Or in our, in the case of our 134, it would be the
456.
Adam Kimmel (23:22):
Exactly yeah.
Have a dedicated machine, andwe're also working with some
external partners for theservice machines and the
refrigerant identification tomake sure that we're able to
detect in case we'd need to.
So that work is ongoing, butit's something that we're not
(23:43):
doing in a vacuum.
We're partnering with theentire HVAC industry to make
sure that the architecture isthere and the service equipment
is in place so that thesedisruptive and transformative
solutions can be used andimplemented in a seamless way.
Robert Leonard.
Jamie Irvine (23:50):
So give us an example of one of your fleet
customers and maybe you'reselling this through
distribution, but eventually itgot to the fleet level and they
had success with this.
Talk me through one of thoseexamples.
Adam Kimmel (24:03):
Sure, so they're relatively new products, so
there's not a ton of data.
But what we have gotten backwe've done two things.
We've upscaled a few employeecars so there's 36, I think,
employee vehicles that we've put456A in and got some
qualitative feedback and we'vesaid be objective, really give
us the honest feedback so we canshare it out.
(24:24):
And what the feedback seemed toindicate was that, by and large
, it performed exactly asexpected.
A few had said it performedeven better, which I think for a
service, if it performed thesame, that would clearly meet
expectations and if it were amore favorable cost in the case
of a YF based replacement, thatwould be even better.
The response was as we wouldhave hoped and expected from the
(24:48):
internal customers.
We also have about 20 or moreexternal customers that have
been purchasing 456.
I believe they're in Italy.
Again, limited feedback, butsome of what we have heard is
that they're excited about theopportunity because it can
mitigate some of the illegaltrade and things going on.
I mean this constraint forcesdesperation.
(25:09):
If you can't get therefrigerant and you're too hot,
what are you going to do?
And so, in absence of options,it increases the risk profile of
something illegal.
So they're excited to have alever to pull as far as a half
you know, half the GWP or loweropportunity and I'm very
confident that the performancefeedback will be similar to what
(25:29):
our employees found is that itperforms at, or better than,
what we'd expect.
Jamie Irvine (25:33):
Yeah, and these constraints that are being
applied here in North America.
I think we're very earlytalking about this here on the
Heavy-Duty Parts Report, but Ithink this episode is going to
age very well.
I think it's going to becomemore important for people to
listen to this episode as timegoes on, as we get closer and
closer to the date set for theserefrigerant constraints and as
(25:54):
those phase downs continue tohappen.
So if you want people to justremember one thing from today's
conversation, what's that onething?
Adam Kimmel (26:02):
I'll give you one thing, with several avenues so I
can make it longer, but it'sthat there are options.
Now you don't have to feel likeyou're being shoved into a
condition where you have nooption other than a high-cost,
limited available solution thatis driven by some government
(26:23):
partnership with the privatesector.
That's not at all what this is.
It's an incentive and a mandateto change behaviors to reduce
global warming potential.
It's the result of us learning,and we learned about ozone
depleting potential.
We got rid of chlorine inrefrigerants.
Sure enough, the ozone repaireditself.
Now the same thing's happening.
(26:44):
I mean, combustion is kickingcarbon into the atmosphere.
Refrigerant leakage is anotherbig component of that.
We need to get HFCs out of theatmosphere.
We need to make these moleculesmore available for hydroxyl
attack in the atmosphere so thatthey break apart in days, not
years, and these blends areoffering really good
(27:06):
opportunities to do that.
But it is possible to haveoptions without skyrocketing the
cost and having them be directreplacement.
So it's easy to implement.
It won't take time, maybe.
The last caveat I'll put is the30% phase down happened in
January of this year.
The next phase down will be in2029.
So from a validation standpoint, the window is open if there is
(27:29):
a need to validate technology,system architecture or anything
else to make sure that you're inplace for that next phase down,
because another 30% on top ofthe 40% already is significant
and that 29 phase down reallyfeels like the level that you're
going to need to change beforethat happens.
Jamie Irvine (27:46):
Agreed, and, as you said, maybe there's a way to
have our cake and eat it too.
And if we could just figure outhow to have cake and not have
the calories, then we'd reallybe winning.
Well, yeah, I think if youdon't have the right refrigerant
, you could sweat the caloriesoff maybe.
Adam Kimmel (28:01):
I'm not sure, but that's what we want.
I mean, options are good forthe consumer and a challenge is
we as manufacturers.
It's just a good thing foreverybody and I think options
are the right way to go, sowe're excited to bring these to
market.
I mean, we know that there'squestions.
One of the questions that weoften get is well, the blends
have glide.
They're a zeotropic blend.
(28:22):
How do we know what thecomposition is?
The composition is all over theplace.
What we've seen is, even insome of our employee cars, if
there's a leak situation, thecomposition still stays within
spec, even with leaks up to 25%or up to 30%.
So I'll say can't guaranteethat for sure, but the idea that
(28:43):
any leak is going to wildlyimpact the composition.
We just haven't observed thatin practice, and so, yeah, more
testing is certainly going to bedone there.
But I wouldn't let the factthat there is glide in these
blends scare anybody away fromusing them.
I mean, they are as good asthey seem, they're performing
well, they're stable, they'reavailable and they're exciting.
Jamie Irvine (29:01):
You've been listening to the Heavy-Duty
Parts Report.
I'm your host, Jamie Irvin, andwe've been speaking with Adam
Kimmel, Senior Manager ofBusiness Development at Orbia.
If you would like to learn moreabout Cora, go to coraglobalcom
.
That's the brand that Orbia hasfor these products.
Adam, thank you so much forbeing on the Heavy-Duty Parts
Report.
Really glad to talk to youtoday.
Adam Kimmel (29:22):
Thanks so much, Jamie.
Pleasure Anytime.
Jamie Irvine (29:24):
Well, I hope you enjoyed our interview with Orbia
, learning about how they arebalancing the needs between the
environmental side of theequation and the economic side
of the equation.
If you're interested inlearning more, make sure you go
to our show notes and click thelinks to get access to all of
the resources that they haveavailable.
It's time for our final segmentof this episode, that's Not
(29:47):
Heavy Duty.
In this edition of that's NotHeavy Duty, I wanted to talk
about a fleet, a specific fleet,that was faced with a decision
of what they were going toprioritize the environment or
the economics of their business.
And in this particular example,they didn't do what's heavy
duty.
They did the wrong thing, theymade the wrong choice.
(30:08):
So let me review it with you.
First of all, it comes from myold stomping grounds, the
Vancouver area of BritishColumbia in Western Canada, and
according to a Vancouver Sunarticle, there is a rural valley
outside of Mission that hasbecome a dump site for excavated
soil and construction waste,with the owners of 14 properties
(30:31):
issuing stop work orders overthe past year for illegally
accepting fill.
Now, in one case, the owner ofa trucking company purchased a
blueberry field and then starteddumping hundreds of loads of
material containing rebar,concrete and plastic on that
land.
In June and again in August,british Columbia's Agricultural
(30:54):
Land Commission issued a stopwork order on the property
against the owner of StrandTrucking.
This is an Abbasford-basedtrucking outfit, and this was
done after an inspector observedtheir trucks dumping at this
site illegally.
Now, in the months since then,neighbors say the activity
hasn't really stopped.
I quote Robert Spiller where hesays they've destroyed the land
(31:17):
.
Robert Spiller, who lives inthe Hatsik Valley for 35 years,
says you can't do anything aboutit and his last name is not a
pun, it being Spiller.
The BC law in that area forbidsthe dumping of construction
material on land reserved forfarming unless approved by the
(31:37):
Land Commission, and the reasonis is that this rocky,
low-quality dirt that'sexcavated from construction
sites across the region is notgood for the environmental
health of the soil on thisfarming land, and so that's why,
by law, it needs to be taken toan authorized facility for
disposing of this.
(31:58):
Now obviously this truckingcompany is trying to save those
disposal fees by just dumping iton this land, and that's
illegal.
So since February of last year,the Land Commission has issued
stop work orders for 13additional properties on or near
Stave Lake Road, noting thatSRAM Trucking has been
(32:19):
associated with the depositingof fill on other properties in
the vicinity withoutauthorization.
So this is a real classicsituation where an individual or
a group of people associatedwith this trucking company were
faced with environmentalregulations and what they chose
to do was to try to skirt thoseand to do the wrong thing really
(32:40):
, at the end of the day.
So sure they might've made somemoney doing this, maybe a lot
of money but at the expense ofthe ecological and environmental
integrity of that farmland.
So this is reallycounterproductive to, in my
opinion, the heavy-dutyperspective.
If you're going to be aheavy-duty person, you're going
(33:02):
to make these tough choices, butyou're not going to completely
sacrifice one thing for theother, any more than we would
completely submit tounreasonable environmental
regulations that are imposedupon us by, maybe, a government
that has a real ideological bend.
Instead, we would go to ourrepresentatives, we would
(33:24):
express our concerns, we wouldjoin the Trucking Association
and lobby to have those lawschanged.
We don't just take unreasonableenvironmental regulations, but
we also wouldn't sacrifice theactual environment just to make
a buck, a quick buck, and so Ithink this is really important.
This whole episode has beenabout balancing these competing
(33:46):
needs of businesses in heavyduty.
I think if we're going to be aheavy duty person, we're going
to have respect for the land,we're going to have respect for
the land, we're going to haverespect for our environment.
We're also going to putourselves in a position where we
can compete and we can makemoney as well, and it's really
really tough to balance theneeds of all of these things.
So I hope that gives you someinsight.
(34:08):
I hope that gives you somethings to think about.
Really appreciate you listeningto this episode.
I just want to remind you thatin a couple of weeks, brake
Safety Week does begin.
If you haven't already, go backand listen to episode 325.
Links are in the show noteswhere you can review my
interview with a brake supplierwhere we talked about what you
(34:30):
need to know about Brake SafetyWeek.
As always, I want to encourageyou to go to
heavydutypartsreportcom and hitthat follow button.
Sign up to our weekly email soyou never miss out on our
content.
If you'd like to listen to thepodcast on a podcast player of
your choice, you can send us atext message by going to the
show notes and clicking the link, you can hit the follow button
for free and if it gives you theoption, give us a five-star
(34:52):
rating and review.
And finally, if you likewatching the video version, make
sure you pound that subscribebutton on youtube and hit the
bell notification so you nevermiss out.
Thank you once again forsupporting all that we do at
heavy duty parts report and, asalways, I want to encourage you
to be heavy duty.
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