Season 3 Premiere: Oklahoma QB John Mateer

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The third season of the Heisman Trophy Podcast kicks off with a bonanza of an episode that features Oklahoma quarterback John Mateer, the new Sooner on the block. The junior transfer from Washington State is primed for a run at the Heisman following a breakout sophomore campaign in the Palouse. In this interview, he talks about his long journey from overlooked high school recruit to highly-coveted transfer star. We follow up with ACCDN analyst and former college quarterback Max Browne, who breaks down the strengths and weaknesses of Mateer's game. We close out with David Covucci, founder of FOIABall.com, a site that uses the Freedom of Information Act to bring transparency to college football, and Heisman Trustee Jim Corcoran.

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The Heisman Trophy Podcast streams every Wednesday during the college football season and is hosted produced, edited and engineered by Chris Huston. The pod is available on all streaming networks, including Spotify and Apple Music, and features video interviews and bonus content on YouTube and TikTok. We also have a reddit community.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_07 (00:00):
It's definitely surreal.
I mean, it's still pretty nutsto me.
When I run out there and think16 days against Illinois State,
I'll still be a little, notfreaked out, but I'll be a
little excited.
You know, it's a dream cometrue.
And this town makes it, youcan't really avoid it.
And you hear it all the time.
I mean, this is Oklahoma.

(00:20):
And I knew it growing up.
Oklahoma is the Mecca.
And And now I'm here, it'spretty crazy to me.
Welcome to the

SPEAKER_05 (00:30):
official Heisman Trophy podcast.

SPEAKER_02 (00:34):
Chuck Conrad with a kickoff.
Roy has a strong leg, end overend.
Sanders takes it one yard deepto the end zone.
Up the middle of five, 10, 15,20.

SPEAKER_05 (00:59):
Here's your host, Chris Houston.
Hello, everybody.
I'm back.
College football season kicksoff this week.
We are in week zero officially.
Thank you so much to all you outthere who subscribe and follow
the show.
Once again, it's been a crazyoffseason in college football,
but the Heisman is back to bringsome normalcy to the situation.

(01:20):
What's normal anymore?
Who's really to say?
We have Iowa State and KansasState in Dublin to kick off the
season.
And here on the Heisman Trophypodcast, we're kicking things
off with Oklahoma quarterbackJohn Mateer.
He merely had 44 touchdownscombined, rushing and passing
last year for Washington State,and now he is in Norman, and

(01:40):
hope is springing eternal onceagain.
for the Sooners.
Our partners ESPN recentlylisted the top 10 Heisman
candidates coming into theseason, and two of them are
starting out with the Heismanpodcast in the first two weeks.
You already know about Mateercoming up a little bit later,
but then next week we will haveJeremiah Smith, wide receiver
extraordinaire out of The OhioState University.

(02:03):
Also coming up on the show, ACCanalyst and former college
football quarterback Max Brownis going to break down
everything about John Mateer andlet us know what kind of player
he is.
And then after that, we willhave David Cavucci of
FOIAball.com.
That's FOIAball.com.
It's an ingenious new websitethat uses the Freedom of

(02:24):
Information Act to bringtransparency to college
football.
I like it.
And then we'll close the showwith one of our Heisman
trustees, Jim Corcoran, and he'sgoing to let us take a peek
inside the temple to find outwhat the Heisman is up to these
days.
But first, let's do a little bitof Heisman news.
Auburn University will honor CamNewton for the Tigers game

(02:46):
against Georgia on October 11thby retiring his number two
jersey.
In addition, Auburn willcelebrate the 40th anniversary
of Bo Jackson's 1985 HeismanTriumph.
Fittingly enough, that will takeplace at the Iron Bowl on
November 29th.
And congratulations to threeHeisman Trophy winners, Robert
Griffin III, Baylor, Mark Ingramof Alabama, and the

(03:07):
aforementioned Newton of Auburn.
All three were named theNational Football Foundation's
2026 ballot under considerationfor induction into the College
Football Hall of Fame.
Congrats, gents.
Good luck.
And also, the Heisman Trophywill be in Columbus, Ohio next
week.
You may have heard there's ahuge game happening between
Texas and Ohio State.
And because it's such a biggame, the statue is going to

(03:28):
take the trip.
Now, if you happen to be inColumbus on that Saturday,
there's a pretty decent chancethat you can get a picture with
the Heisman Trophy.
You might even see two-timeHeisman Trophy winner Archie
Griffin, who will be honored forthe 50th anniversary of his
second Heisman win.
Check back to this space nextweek.
I'll have more details then.

(03:49):
And before we get to our firstguest, I just want to tell a
little story.
It might sound familiar.
Imagine a player who goes tohigh school in Texas, has a
great career as a quarterback,shows a lot of promise, plays at
the highest levels of Texas highschool football.
But for some reason or another,he doesn't get scouted properly.
I mean, there's a lot of playersin Texas, so you can't always

(04:10):
find every one.
So with very little interestcoming from Power 5 conferences,
he takes the first offer he canget from Washington State.
He has a breakout season for theCougars, such a breakout, that
he's courted by all the collegefootball powers who overlooked
him earlier in his career.
He picks a traditional power toplay quarterback at, and he
leads them to a great season,and he becomes a Heisman

(04:31):
finalist.
Of course, I'm talking about CamWard, who made the trip from
Texas to Washington down toMiami on his way to becoming a
Heisman Trophy finalist lastyear.
And then he becomes the firstpick in the NFL draft.
But with the exception of thepart about the Heisman finalist
and the draft status, becauseit's too early to tell, so far
this story pretty much tracksbeat for beat with the story of

(04:53):
John Mateer.
We brought him on the show lastyear when he was with the
Cougars, and he was justbeginning to blossom as a
quarterback.
And we do take pride inidentifying talent as early as
possible on this show.
We talked to Cam Ward atWashington State just before he
broke out.
Now, humans are naturallypattern recognizers, but I
recognize a pattern here.
So expect good things in thefuture for young Mr.

(05:14):
Mateer, who, by the way, is nowa two-time guest on the Heisman
Trophy podcast.
Rare air indeed.
We talked to John last week ashis team was preparing for
Illinois State on August 30th.
And here's what he had to say.
John Mateer, quarterback,Oklahoma Sooners.
Welcome back to the HeismanTrophy podcast.

SPEAKER_07 (05:36):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_05 (05:39):
You made the move from the Palouse to the Plains.
How are you enjoying life inNorman, Oklahoma these days?

SPEAKER_07 (05:44):
It's been great.
I mean, the whole move was asmooth transition coming back
down to the south and sameoffensive coordinator and
quarterback coach and one of ourreceiver coaches.
It's been great.
It's really a family here andall these people brought me in
and embraced me.
It's been a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_05 (06:00):
I know it's camp time and things are crazy, but
in August, 2020, 25, what's thesingle biggest thing in your
mind when you wake up?

SPEAKER_07 (06:10):
Hmm.
I would say just me and myselfand competing every day.
I think it's important.
I'm in a new situation, but Idon't need to try to do
anything.
That's not me.
That's not me.
who I am, you know, and thepeople here have told me that
and really embraced me for who Iam.
And then competing, everythingis about competing and getting

(06:31):
to the highest level we can be.

SPEAKER_05 (06:32):
Yeah.
You were perhaps the mostprominent quarterback transfer
in all of college football thispast off season.
And now a lot of people aretouting you as Oklahoma's next
great quarterback.
Does that feel like a target onyour back or is it fuel in your
tank?

SPEAKER_07 (06:46):
Definitely not a target.
It's a huge opportunity.
I mean, I grew up watching allthe Awesome quarterbacks.
I went to this university, andit's an endless list of good
quarterbacks, and I'm justhonored to be in that position
and to try to do my best.

SPEAKER_05 (07:02):
You came on this show last October when you were
with Washington State, kind ofbefore you really started to
blow up nationally.
How has your game changed sincethen?
And I'm not talking your playingstyle necessarily, but the way
you think and the way youprepare.

SPEAKER_07 (07:13):
Yeah, I mean, the experience is– I mean, nothing
can replace it.
You need so much experience, and– Getting that and getting those
games in, even after our lasttalk, are huge.
And the game slows down for youand going through your
progressions and your instinctsand knowing protections and
getting your checkdowns.
I was playing some prettyreckless football there at the

(07:36):
beginning, and I was justthrowing my body into defenders.
And that's one way to play, butit's not the best for your
longevity.
So getting the checkdowns andtrusting my athletes around me.

SPEAKER_05 (07:47):
Is that something that Coach Arbuckle is talking
to you now about?
you know keeping preserving yourbody choosing your spots

SPEAKER_07 (07:55):
yeah no doubt i mean there's definitely still spots
you got to do it third downfourth down into the game i mean
you let it loose but um the teamneeds you you know and we got
really athletic guys that arebuilt to take those hits

SPEAKER_05 (08:08):
you were super productive last year as a first
year starter what's one lessonfrom last season that you took
that you'll never forget

SPEAKER_07 (08:13):
i struggled there um around the time we had the uh
our talk uh i was really worriedabout all the outside noise and
everything i was so younglooking back i feel like a whole
different person but i was soyoung you know i cared about
what everybody thought and nowgetting older it's not easy but
i i really learned that it'sreally it's the people closest

(08:35):
to you in your circle that'stheir opinion matters because
because you love them andbecause you built trust with
them but not everybody maneverybody's gonna have something
to say and but you trust thepeople you trust

SPEAKER_05 (08:46):
I'm sure it's never easy to transfer to a new
program.
Kind of walk me through theprocess you took to get to know
your teammates and the coachesduring the offseason.

SPEAKER_07 (08:55):
I mean, I got really lucky because it's the same
offensive coordinator.
Yeah.
So...
So being able to know theoffense but just learn the
relationships, just buildrelationships in the locker room
because I didn't have to sit ina meeting room and learn the
offense.
I could sit in the locker roomand learn the players, and
that's huge.
I mean, there's nothing toreplace that and just being

(09:17):
around the guys and learning theculture.

SPEAKER_05 (09:19):
Yeah.
In the classroom, you major inorganizational leadership.
It seems like a major perfectlysuited for the quarterback.
Has it helped make you a betterleader?

SPEAKER_07 (09:28):
Yeah, I just got introduced into that major
coming here.
It all got kind of messed up inthe portal and transferred to a
new school, which is how it is.
But yeah, I mean, it's prettyfitting.
We're pretty organized here, andI'm supposed to be a leader.
So yeah, I mean, you takeclasses about how to lead, and
yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (09:47):
Great timing.
Everyone talks about armstrength, your reads, the
footwork, but what's one part ofyour game that people are
overlooking?

SPEAKER_07 (09:56):
Those are some big ones.
But I'd say just the ability toprocess and to know what's going
on and what's going on up frontgets you into the smarter checks
and the easy checks.
I thought I was pretty good atit, but I'm even better at it
now.
Keeping the game simple.
You don't have to do anythingcrazy.
Just be efficient on all downs.

SPEAKER_05 (10:17):
Yeah.
Coach Arbuckle said that youhave to make this your team.
Is it yours yet?

SPEAKER_07 (10:22):
I'm not here to say it's my team, this and that.
I feel like there might be someego in that, but I think it's a
good team, and I think I havethe trust in my teammates to say
that they'll follow my lead.

SPEAKER_05 (10:38):
Looking at the OU receiving room, who's going to
be your Kyle Williams this year,do you think?

SPEAKER_07 (10:43):
Kyle is special.
and he's doing great things nowwith the Patriots.
There's a lot of guys.
I mean, you look across theboard, Giovanni, Cantis, Lewis,
Deon Berg.
You got Isaiah Satani.
You got so many guys, andthey're all battling with
different stuff, and they lovefootball.

(11:04):
So I don't know who it's goingto be, and it could be anybody
across the whole depth chart,and they've been working real
hard.

SPEAKER_05 (11:11):
You know, there was lots of talk about the
transition going over to playingin the SEC, and you guys have a
tremendous schedule coming up.
Playing against the OU defenseevery day in practice, has that
sort of allowed you to get ataste of that and level up your
game a bit?

SPEAKER_07 (11:26):
Yeah, I mean, this defense is real, and they're
going to throw everything atyou.
It's hard to scheme against.
I mean, the goal isn't to schemeagainst our defense.
You can't.
I don't know.
They just do so much stuff.
It's great.
And then the talent on that sideof the ball is going to prepare
me for what we're going against,and I appreciate them every day

(11:47):
because they bring it every day.

SPEAKER_05 (11:48):
Yeah.
You were in, I think, eighthgrade when Baker Mayfield won
his Heisman, and you were afreshman already starting at
high school at quarterback whenKyler Murray won his.
Both Texas– quarterbacks out ofhigh school, both guys who
transferred into OU, so you'rekind of in that same situation.
As a young quarterback in thosedays, did you look up to those
guys and really take note ofwhat they were doing?

SPEAKER_07 (12:10):
Yeah, no doubt.
I mean, both of them areincredible football players
still, and what they did in sucha close proximity to me, where I
was from, and doing it, I guesshow I'm doing it now, is
awesome.
I mean, the history here, youhear Baker's name every day
around this place, and what theydid for this program is awesome.

SPEAKER_05 (12:30):
You know, you weren't really touted much
coming out of high school, whichis pretty weird.
You know, you played at thehighest levels of Texas high
school, super productive.
And I read that you always kindof thought that you would
eventually, you know, the creamwould rise to the top.
You would eventually be in thissituation.
And now that you're in thissituation, quarterback at OU,
does it feel real?
Are you amazed that you'reactually in this situation that

(12:54):
you've been dreaming of andlooking forward to all these
years?

SPEAKER_07 (12:57):
Yeah, it's definitely surreal.
I mean, it's still pretty nutsto me.
When I run out there and I think16 days against Illinois State,
I'll still be a little, notfreaked out, but I'll be a
little excited.
It's a dream come true and superexcited for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_05 (13:14):
How much do you love college football?
Having this experience at atraditional power, are you
starting to feel that sensationof just the history and all the
things that make collegespecial?

SPEAKER_07 (13:25):
Yeah, I mean, this town makes it– you can't really
avoid it.
And you hear it all the time.
I mean, this is Oklahoma, and Iknew it growing up.
Oklahoma is the Mecca, and nowI'm here.
It's pretty crazy to me.
But, yeah, I mean, I know thehistory and the culture of what
this place is.

SPEAKER_05 (13:44):
If someone only watched one drive from you this
season, what do you want them tosee?

SPEAKER_07 (13:47):
Toughness, intelligence, and just–
quickness i'd say those are thebig big three things that'll
make make this team get it done

SPEAKER_05 (13:59):
when did you first hear your name in a heisman
conversation and what was yourgut reaction when you heard that

SPEAKER_07 (14:04):
i i saw it on instagram it was posted and i
was like whoa like this is nutskind of that was back when i
really cared about that you knowi still do it's a big thing but
that was the focus and it's notit's not the focus anymore i'll
be honest but It shouldn't be,but it's great.
I mean, this is the award.

SPEAKER_05 (14:23):
Yeah.
Well, luckily, you win a bunchof games, have a great year.
All that stuff kind of comesnaturally.
So I'm going to do a quickfive-question lightning round to
end the segment.
Name a teammate that you havegreat chemistry with right now.

SPEAKER_07 (14:37):
Giovanni Gibson.

SPEAKER_05 (14:38):
What's the favorite game you've ever played in?

SPEAKER_07 (14:40):
The Apple

SPEAKER_05 (14:40):
Cup.
That was a great game.
Toughest moment that you've hadto push through?
Losing to Boise.
What's one stadium that youdreamed of playing in?
Oklahoma.
All right.
Well, John Mateer, we reallyappreciate you coming on the
Heisman Trophy podcast.
We wish you the best of luckthis season.
You got Illinois State coming atthe end of the month, like you

(15:01):
mentioned.
And we wish you and your teamthe best of luck.
And maybe we'll see you down theroad.

SPEAKER_07 (15:05):
Yes, sir.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 (15:13):
Hope you enjoyed the interview.
Just a reminder that everySaturday makes legends, but
every December only one becomesimmortal.
So stay ahead of the story.
Subscribe now to the HeismanTrophy podcast because history
doesn't wait and neither shouldyou.

(15:35):
The Heisman is handed out everyDecember, but the history of the
trophy lives year round atHeisman.com.
Home to the most iconic trophyin sports, Heisman.com tells the
stories of all 88 of our winnersand features news, bios, and
statistics on all your favoriteHeisman heroes.
Heisman.com also highlights ourHeisman humanitarians, the many
charities supported by theHeisman Trust, and so much more.

(15:57):
Make Heisman.com your first stopfor all things Heisman.
Joining us now on the HeismanTrophy podcast is Max Brown,
formerly of USC and theUniversity of Pittsburgh.

(16:17):
Welcome, Max.

SPEAKER_08 (16:18):
What's up, Chris?
Thanks for having me

SPEAKER_05 (16:20):
on.
Yeah, we just talked to JohnMateer, and I thought it'd be
great to get a formerquarterback on the show to talk
about what's so special abouthis game.
So thanks for coming on.

SPEAKER_08 (16:31):
For sure.
Yeah, you want me to jump rightinto it?

SPEAKER_05 (16:35):
Yeah, I just say, you know, let's right off the
bat, from what you've seen,what's your overall assessment
of his game right now?

SPEAKER_08 (16:42):
Yeah, my first true time seeing him was the Apple
Cup of last year, his matchupversus Washington.
And, you know, from afar, I hadcalled and covered a bunch of
Washington State games during mytime with the Pac-12 networks.
And I didn't really know whothis guy was.
It was always like, you know,Cam Ward was, for obvious
reasons, he was the splashy guy.
And it was like, oh, man, theCougs are going to be in real

(17:03):
trouble with Cam Ward movingaway.
And then with every month in theoffseason, it was like, nah, I
think we're going to be finewith this Mateer guy.
And then when he turned on thatfilm, the matchup last year
versus Washington, which thatwas one of the more high-profile
matchups, given that, you know,Washington State's not in an
elite conference anymore.
But he is clearly the bestplayer on the field.
And I think what– What peoplemay underestimate about his

(17:25):
ability is you see the highlightreels with his legs, but I think
he can totally beat you in wingames from the pocket, which
that's obviously what you wantfrom a dual threat quarterback.
But there's a lot of collegequarterbacks that I think for
them to play at their highestlevel, their legs have to be a
critical factor in a game.
I don't think that's the casewith John Mateer.
I think John Mateer could runfor 10 yards in a game and still

(17:48):
play lights out because he hasthe ability to beat you from the
pocket.

UNKNOWN (17:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (17:52):
Yeah, totally.
He had a really nice run in thatgame where he showed a nice
cutback ability.
I think he might have had acouple big runs and a couple
just big-time throws.
How would you describe his styleof play compared to other
college quarterbacks that you'vecovered or played with?

SPEAKER_08 (18:08):
Yeah, it's funny.
The two guys that stick out are–I mean, these weren't guys that
I played with, but BakerMayfield, one, and Johnny
Manziel, another.
I think he is– faster than BakerMayfield and probably more along
in terms of like actual speedand elusiveness, more of the
Johnny Manziel side.
But he seems sturdy.

(18:30):
He seems like he could hang inthe pocket.
And that was a little bit ofBaker Mayfield's magic is, you
know, hanging in there, takingthe hits, being gritty and
sturdy in the pocket, whichisn't always the sexiest thing
to say, but I think that is, isa value.
And, Obviously, it's of notesaying Baker Mayfield to a guy
that's now also wearing theOklahoma jersey.

(18:51):
And I've seen a couple articlesof John being like, you know
what, I don't want any part ofthat.
But I do think there is overlapin some of that skill set.
And Baker was obviously verygood from the pocket.
If John could be even remotelyclose to that, I think Oklahoma
could have a really good year.

SPEAKER_05 (19:08):
Yeah, there was an element of the Sandlot football
a little bit to his game lastyear.
A lot of times you'd see him,he'll roll left and then instead
of setting his feet, he mightthrow it awkwardly.
What stands out about you, abouthis throwing mechanics, his
release, his footwork, hispocket movement, all that kind
of stuff?

SPEAKER_08 (19:27):
I view it as a positive.
Yeah, I don't view that as anegative.
To me, there's two separatethings.
There's the arm slot, and thenthere's the footwork, which I've
seen criticism on both sides.
I've seen the criticism that,hey, his footwork looks a little
sporadic and chaotic at times.
I was the guy that grew upwatching Peyton Manning, and his
feet was noteworthy for howchaotic and scrambly they were.

(19:51):
But I think that was more himjust staying active and whatnot,
and it wasn't necessarily apanic level there.
That's how I view Martyr'sfootwork.
The arm slots...
I view that as a positive justin today's game with, you know,
the RPO world run pass optionbeing so significant in college
football, the ability to throwout a different arm slots.
To me, that's a positive.

(20:13):
And I think at the end of theday, when he does have a clean
pocket and it's third and sixand he's dropping back, he can
totally throw the ball withstrong mechanics.
So the fact that he can do both,I view as a positive.

SPEAKER_05 (20:27):
Yeah, all that artistry aside, are there any
mechanical tweaks you thinkcould maybe help him improve his
accuracy a bit or maybe hisconsistency?

SPEAKER_08 (20:36):
I guess to me it's just that next-level notch
command of the passing gamebecause when your mechanics are
in sync with what your eyes areseeing down the field, that's
obviously the rhythm you want tobe in.
Where guys get in trouble, whereI think a John might get in
trouble as if hey, there'sindecision in what I'm seeing in
the pass concept down the field,especially as he's moving to the

(21:00):
SEC.
Does that then lead to badfootwork because his eyes aren't
where they need to be?
So to me, it's more of a, hey,make sure his brain and his eyes
are locked in, especially withobviously seeing much better
defenses, and then that'll leadto good mechanics and footwork.

SPEAKER_05 (21:16):
Looking at decision-making in field
division today, From what youcan tell looking at his tape,
how well does he processdefenses pre and post snap?

SPEAKER_08 (21:26):
I think it's strong.
I don't see a guy that isrelying every single time to see
a receiver open.
I mean, I go back to thatWashington game again that was
early on in last season.
There's a lot of throws in therewhere he's on the far right hash
throwing to the left sideline.
And the only way you're doingthat is if you're anticipating
the throw.
So I think that's a strong skillset of his.

(21:46):
I certainly wouldn't say that'sa weakness.
which sometimes that is, right?
If you're a dual threatquarterback, you have the luxury
of a lot of teams lining up inman against you, which then
makes the picture very cleanwhen you're reading defenses.
So you have the luxury of seeingguys open and seeing your
receivers get separation.
I don't think that's necessarilythe case for John.

(22:08):
For all these quarterbacks thatare Transfer guys or at new
schools, that's always thedecision or always the talking
point of, like, can they levelup their command across the
board with the offensive scheme?
In year two with Ben Arbuckle,I'd expect that to be the case,
but I certainly don't thinkthat's a weakness of Mateer's
game.

SPEAKER_05 (22:26):
Yeah, just kind of stepping aside and talking about
the transfer aspect reallyquick.
You were a transfer.
You went from USC to Pitt.
He's had to come in.
Obviously, I think you had tosit out a year, right, before?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 (22:38):
No, I graduated.
So I did the grad transfer rightin there.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (22:41):
Right.
So, you know, there's a processof coming to a new place and
getting to know people.
Is there like a tried and trueapproach to finding a way to
feel comfortable in a newsituation like that, especially
in this short period of time?
He's only had eight months sofar.
You had to go through it.
What was kind of the approachyou took?

(23:03):
And, you know, what is he goingthrough right now in that kind
of situation?

SPEAKER_08 (23:07):
My approach was, hey, every locker room speaks
hard work.
And what I mean by that is ifyou show up and take care of
your business, everyone's goingto respect that, whether you're
at a Division II school, whetheryou're at Pitt, whether you're
at USC, Washington State,wherever.
What I can't relate to for Johnis in my brain, I was going down
a notch from USC to Pitt, from aBlue Blood program to a program

(23:31):
that's still– expects to be inthe top 25 every year, but from
my vantage point, it wasn't thepressure and intensity of what
it was at USC.
Obviously, John going fromWashington State to Oklahoma for
a staff that's likely coachingfor their jobs this year, it's a
different level of expectations.
Then I also can't relate to thefact that he's coming with his

(23:51):
offensive coordinator, which isa huge factor in terms of not
having to learn a new offenseand all that.
For me, the hardest part oftransferring to Pitt was having
to learn another new offense asa older upperclassman, which at
that point you're hopeful, like,I'm past those days, right?
That's what my freshman andsophomore year were for.
That was not my case at Pitt,which I think will help John out

(24:12):
at Oklahoma.

SPEAKER_05 (24:13):
That's a really unique situation for him.
That's one of the reasons whyhim going over there is so
intriguing.
Going back to his physicaltalent, his arm talent, his ball
placement, how would you gradehis arm strength and his ability
to make throws at all thelevels?

SPEAKER_08 (24:27):
I'd say B+.
I mean, I don't turn on the filmand say, oh, wow, this is a guy
that can't make the throws.
But I also don't turn on thefilm and say, wow, this guy has
a rocket arm.
The line that I've been usingall offseason, though, is from a
film evaluation standpoint, JohnMateer's 2024 film was better
than Cam Ward's 2023 film.

(24:49):
Take that however you will,whether that means Cam was the
best quarterback ever.
in college football last year.
Like, that's doing somethingright.
Obviously, he was the number onepick in the draft.
I think Cam has maybe a littlebit more ceiling to tap into
than John does at current date,like in their respective
preseason college footballyears.
But, I mean, Mateer's film'slegit.

SPEAKER_05 (25:10):
Yeah.
You know, it's funny.
They say history repeats itselfor sometimes it rhymes.
And you look at Cam Wardstarting out where he did in
Texas and not being recruited,going to Washington State,
leveling up to Miami, first pickin the draft.
You got John Mateer, samesituation, going to Washington
State, leveling up to Oklahoma.

(25:33):
What do you see him as far aslike his ceiling?
Can he be someone who iseventually a high draft pick if
his production shows up thisyear in Oklahoma?

SPEAKER_08 (25:41):
In terms of ceiling, in terms of best-case scenario,
without a doubt.
I mean, if we're seeing it outof guys, I mean, I know Johnny
Manziel's career didn't workout, but he was a first-round
draft pick.
I mean, Baker's obviously had,after some twists and turns, a
successful career.
Like, best-case scenario,ceiling, I do think that John
has that capability.
He needs to take a big step toget there, don't get me wrong,

(26:02):
and obviously, you know, back upthe expectations and show that
his game can translate to ahigher level of college
football, but...
Ceiling, best case scenario,totally.
Even more so, that's easy tosay, but for example, Fernando
Mendoza is another top transferquarterback that went to
Indiana.

(26:23):
A lot of people have him as afirst-round guy.
I don't think his ceiling'sthere.
So that's not just the easyanswer.
Could he be an NFL guy?
For sure.
But first-round guy, I'm notthere with a guy like Fernando
Mendoza.
I'm not necessarily therewith...
I mean, some of the other...
Darian Mensah or guys like that.
Mateer, I think, and the reasonis, I think Mateer can win from

(26:46):
the pocket first and the legsare a supplemental bonus versus
my sense is the average collegefootball fan kind of feels like
Mateer was just running aroundup in Pullman and being a better
athlete than everyone.
I think there's a lot more tohis game than that.

SPEAKER_05 (27:02):
Yeah, it seems like it.
And one of the things I thinkthose critics don't really talk
about is, yeah, he was atWashington State and didn't
necessarily have the high-levelcompetition that he's going to
have.
On the other hand, he's gotpeople around him perhaps who
are maybe more talented, moredepth than he probably had at
Washington State, althoughWashington State had an
excellent receiving core.

SPEAKER_08 (27:22):
I agree with that.
I've been a big fan.
I called Jay Knott's first-evercollege football game, and that
guy is special.
And he was hurt last year, so Ithink– I mean, Oklahoma fans
know him.
I mean, as a top running backtransfer– But that dude is
special.
If they can keep him healthy andthat's a combo in the backfield,
that could be a huge value addto support John Mateer with a

(27:45):
run game there.

SPEAKER_05 (27:46):
What part of his game do you think is going to
translate best to making thismove?
He's going to have to adjustsome things for sure, but what's
going to just naturally be thereand really make the biggest
impact right away?

SPEAKER_08 (27:57):
I think the improvisation, those skills will
translate.
I mean, when things break downand he makes a defensive end
miss and there's a second playand he scrambles for a first
down or finds a receiver leakingout to the edge, that stuff
translates.
And I think if you're adefensive coordinator, you're
going to have to account for hislegs as part of your game plan.

(28:18):
That's going to translate.
To me...
Is he going to be able to switchdirections and run all over the
park and get hit a bunch in theSEC like maybe he did at
Washington State?
That probably has to get toneddown.
I'm intrigued to see how all thepraise that I've been giving him
from a pocket passingstandpoint.
I think a lot of it willtranslate, but that's also
another big question.

(28:39):
But the skills of him makingdefensive ends miss, getting to
that second play, I thinktranslates to the SEC.

SPEAKER_05 (28:46):
Well, Max Brown, one of the finest up-and-coming
analysts in the game.
We're going to bring you on byyour leave whenever we have a
quarterback on just to have youbreak him down.
Is that okay?

SPEAKER_08 (28:56):
That'd be a blast.
Looking forward.
I think it's an interesting yearwhere a lot of quarterback
battles, a lot of starters thatare brand new to their teams
that I feel confident inNovember we'll be talking about
guys that in the Heismanconversation that we're not
necessarily talking about rightnow.

SPEAKER_05 (29:11):
So where are some of the places that the people out
there can find you and read youand look at your stuff?

SPEAKER_08 (29:15):
Yeah, I've really leveled up the YouTube game this
past off season.
So they're just under Max Brown,posting videos every single
week.
Active on TikTok and Instagramas well, Max Brown.
And X as well, Max Brown 4.

SPEAKER_05 (29:28):
Everyone get out there and look at what Max has
to say.
Great stuff.
Very informative.
Well, thanks for coming on theshow and we'll see you down the
road.

SPEAKER_08 (29:34):
Thanks, Chris.

SPEAKER_05 (29:37):
Did you know that the Heisman Trophy Trust has
donated more than$20 million toa huge variety of charity-based
groups via its Heisman TrophyFund for Youth Development?
That's right.
The fund has helped countlesscharitable organizations that
uses sports to engageunderprivileged young people in
educational activities.
If you are part of anorganization or know of one that
would like to apply for funding,visit Heisman.com and click on

(29:58):
the charities link at the top ofthe site.

SPEAKER_01 (30:01):
Hey guys, this is Barry Sanders, the 1988 Heisman
Trophy winner, and you arelistening to the official
Heisman Trophy podcast.

SPEAKER_05 (30:22):
So we're all familiar with the massive
changes going on in collegefootball right now.
One of the interesting things tome is that the college football
media landscape has beenchanging at the same time.
And some of the larger entitiesthat used to cover the sport
don't really dedicate as muchresources as they used to to
hard reporting or the expertiseto investigate just isn't there
anymore.

(30:42):
That's why I was fascinated tolearn about a new website,
foiaball.com, that's F-O-I-Aball.com, which utilizes the
Freedom of Information Act toretrieve public records from
universities.
The creator of that site isDavid Cavucci, and he joins us
now.
David Cavucci of Foyaball,welcome to the show.

(31:02):
Hello, thank you for having me.
So FOIAball.beehive.com is a newwebsite out there.
Tell me, what sparked the ideato start FOIAball, and why apply
Freedom of Information Actrequests specifically there?
to college football?

SPEAKER_00 (31:20):
Well, this is something I've been noodling
over for years.
At my old job, I ran a publicrecords reporting internship
where I taught college studentshow to use FOIA.
And it was really a fascinating,interesting experience.
But I always thought I wouldlove to devote myself to this
full time.
I was running other reporters,covering other stuff.
And I could never focus on it.
I'd fire off a request here andthere.
But I always thought if I coulddo this full time, it'd be

(31:42):
something I'd really, really beinto.
I really love the concept ofFOIA.
It's a fantastic, fantastictransparency act.
Thank you.

(32:07):
myriad amount of information youcan pull from these schools.
And a lot of reporters do it.
You know, they'll pullcontracts, they'll pull some
expense reports, stuff likethat.
But there's really only in thisspace, one other site, Matt
Brown at Extra Points, shout outto him.
He runs a great sort of publicrecords reporting site as well,
that is focusing on this fulltime.

(32:28):
And, you know, every, there's200, plus Division I college
football teams.
You know, every one of them isgenerating hundreds of records a
day.
There's just so much informationout there, and it's all
available to grab.
And, you know, college footballhas its absurdities and
curiosities, and I just reallywanted to sort of shed a light
on that.

SPEAKER_05 (32:49):
It's a great time to be a private university, I
suppose, when David Cavucci andFoyaball are around, huh?

SPEAKER_00 (32:55):
Yeah, no, Notre Dame, Baylor, Duke, those are
some schools that have sort ofbeen frustrating me.
Obviously, you can't requestthem, but there are ways you can
backdoor it.
One of the interesting things Itaught a lot of my students is,
you know, you can request apublic department's
communications with a privateentity.
So you could go to, not to sortof tease things I'm doing, but

(33:15):
you could go to...
I am blanking on Waco, Texas andfour other police departments
communications with Baylor asopposed to going to Baylor and
finding it that way.
So there's always sorts ofinteresting ways around it and
ways you can manipulate it.
So it's a really fascinating,again, piece of legislation.
And I love it to death.

(33:35):
And I love college football.
So combining the two seem like ano brainer.

SPEAKER_05 (33:39):
Like you mentioned earlier, college football has
its quirks, hasn't always beenthe most transparent of sports.
It's kind of just a mishmash ofdifferent rules and traditions
and ways of doing things.
And I think that just nowthere's starting to be a sea
change in a lot of that.
How much transparency did youfeel existed before and what had

(34:03):
been missing specifically?

SPEAKER_00 (34:05):
There's definitely been good transparency, but
there's not been...
As much as I'd like to see,because the way college football
has developed, it's been amishmash of private and public
partnerships.
You have public schools, youhave private schools, you have
private entities like the NCAA,like the Big 12, like the SEC.
Those are all not subject to anysort of transparency rules.

(34:26):
So you're sort of layeringtransparency on top of privacy,
on top of transparency.
So, you know, there's been goodcoverage of it.
Some of the like budgetingstuff, obviously coaching
contracts, that stuff's beenexposed, you know, maybe like 10
years ago, there was a big pushto report on how much coaches
were making.
They were proving that they'rethe highest paid employees at

(34:47):
their states.
But like the governor of a statewho's the second highest
employee, they're also subjectto public disclosure laws.
So they're emails are foiable.
Their expenses are foiable.
Their calendars, I've been doingan interesting dive into the
calendars of coaches beforegames.
And so all that stuff isavailable for the taking.

(35:08):
I, myself, am not going to beable to get all of it.
There's plenty of space here,but I'm hoping to sort of help
kickstart a new sort oftransparency push in the sport.
You said the word foiable.
It's such an interesting verb.
I was wondering if that wasgoing to be a pun for the site,
but it's just not.
I guess

SPEAKER_05 (35:25):
it's not a verb, it's an adjective, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 (35:28):
Yeah, I think, yeah, it's an adjective.

SPEAKER_05 (35:31):
For those unfamiliar, what is the process
of filing and following up onFOIA requests with departments
and universities?

SPEAKER_00 (35:39):
So in a way, it's really simple and it's really
difficult.
These laws came about in the1960s when there was no
internet, and they were designedto allow citizens to know what
was going on in theirgovernment.
The idea was the US is ademocracy.
Its power is vested in thepeople.
They have a right to know whattheir officials are doing,
whether that's meetings they'rescheduling, contracts they're

(36:00):
offering to private entities.
So you could, in the 60s, walkup to an office and say, I would
like all your documents on this.
And the FOIA officer was sittingthere.
We'd go walk back into the file,sort through it, and pull them
out.
And so that was very easy.
And there's a lot of importantlack of regulations on who can
do it.
A lot of people miss interpretit as a tool for journalists and

(36:24):
journalists use it, but it'sdesigned for citizens.
You know, you can go to certainstates and you don't have to
provide ID.
You don't have to give a name.
You don't ever, for almost anystate, have to state why you're
doing this.
You know, you don't have to tellthe FOIA officer, I want to do a
story on, you know, this coachand how much he's blowing and,
you know, hotel room service.
You don't have to do that.
Schools are very understaffed intheir FOIA office.

(36:45):
So, you know, a school like, forexample, University of Oregon,
they have two full-time FOIAofficers.
Smaller schools have ofpart-time ones.
So they're getting on averagebetween 200 to 400 requests a
year.
And a lot of it's junk.
A lot of it's a bit kooky.
I've sent some kooky onesmyself.
I won't deny that.
But, you know, they're sort oftacit doing all that and they

(37:06):
have to go to wherever theythink the record is.
They have to go find it, youknow, to be successful.
You have to be really specific.
You kind of have to know whatmay be out there as opposed to
just saying, you can't say, giveme all of Kirby smarts emails.
You'd have to say, you know,give me his emails from this
date where he's talking aboutthis thing.
And that makes the process a loteasier and speed things up.
But, you know, just, Staying ontop of it is really important.

(37:29):
Learning the laws of the stateyou want to request it.
You know, each state isdifferent.
Each state has different rulesfor redaction, rules for
appealing, rules for how soonthey can apply.
So, you know, like collegefootball, it's a hodgepodge of a
bunch of different things.
But, you know, anyone can do it.
There's no sort of format youneed to send a request in.
You can just write to Virginiaand say, well, not Virginia

(37:50):
because you have to be aresident, but Maryland and say,
I want, you know, MichaelOxley's contract.
You don't need to say who youare.
are, why you want it.
I've already said that.
But you don't need to provideID.
You can just sort of demand it.
And it's a really, you know,amazing tool for people to use.
But it can be a process.
You know, I have had recordsthat have been outstanding for

(38:12):
years in my last job.
You know, I have records rightnow that haven't been responded
to in months.
So there are regulations thatrequire officers to respond in a
certain amount of time, butthey're certainly overworked.
And it's sort of a one in oneout kind of deal.
So you can be waiting a long,long time for a lot of records.

SPEAKER_05 (38:29):
We're talking to David Cabucci, a FOIA ball here
on the Heisman Trophy podcast.
Your site just launched andyou've got a few stories up
right now.
There's a couple of interestingones that really caught my eye.
In particular, do you have whatit takes to be a college
football mascot?
Tell me a little bit about whatyou found out about some of the
requirements that areimplemented by the universities

(38:51):
or by certain universities withtheir mascots.

SPEAKER_00 (38:55):
So that story actually stemmed from an
interesting discussion with somefans who were helping me
brainstorm ideas.
And we wanted to come up with,we wanted to do some for us
around regulations of liveanimals at games like Bevo, like
Ugga, but sort of similar towhat we've been talking about.
A lot of those animals are ownedby private farms.
So some of that stuff is, isrestricted, but I thought, you
know, there's gotta be all sortsof weird rules around mascots.

(39:17):
Like, you know, they've gottabe, I assume they're, they have
to sign NDAs.
I assume, you know, there'scertain, behaviors they can't
do.
And we did find that out.
One of the bulk of the piece wasthe Sparty Code of Conduct,
Michigan State's rules andregulations for Sparty.
It was a 34-page document.
It had an NDA that I wasastounded by how tight it was.

(39:39):
The thing would probably hold upin court if you revealed that
you were Sparty, but youcouldn't tell anyone except your
parents.
You had to go to absurd lengthsto deny it if you were ever
confronted.
They talked about how to takeevasive action to get into the
locker room and seem to change,how to respond if someone saw
you.
You know, they had all sorts offun little stipulations that

(40:01):
Sparty had to stand for theanthem, which obviously makes
sense.
But I thought that was a funthing to include.
They had a rule that, you know,Sparty could not moon the
University of Michigan crowd,which a lot of people rightfully
pointed out.
And I'd like to find out, too,that that rule had to come from
someone doing it and it havingto be added to the rulebook.
Excuse me.
I thought we were in collegehere.
What's going on?
Yeah.
And then the really fascinatingthing was that a lot of these

(40:22):
schools, we did records forWisconsin and Bucky Badger,
Shasta at Houston.
I have one coming up on theOregon duck that didn't make it
in time.
So there'll be some interestingOregon duck stuff in the future
for those who are excited aboutthat.
And Big Red, University ofWestern Kentucky, everyone's
favorite.
And in a lot of the guidelinesfor the people inside the

(40:43):
mascots, you know, they wererequired to wash their costumes
and the Story got posted toReddit and a lot of former
mascots chimed in that it wasjust a huge pain.
They were required to do this.
You know, you'd think obviouslya football team has a massive
laundry system, but these poorcollege students were, you know,
having to lug their head home,disinfect it, wash it, air dry
it, you know, all without theirroommates seeing.

(41:04):
So it's sort of a fun,difficult, well, maybe not fun,
but it's a difficult spot foryoung college kids to be put in.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (41:12):
Indeed.
Have you hit any roadblocks orseen any pushbacks from schools?
And if so, what's the mostsurprising resistance you've
had?

SPEAKER_00 (41:21):
I haven't seen any specific pushback.
The way it works is that in anideal world, the FOIA office of
a university is completelyremoved from any other part of
it.
The FOIA officer goes, yourequest something, they go and
search for it, they decidewhat's redacted, and then they
send you the files.
They're not supposed to becontacting the athletic
department to ask what theyhave.

(41:41):
They're not supposed to beallowing other people to enter
the process.
That doesn't necessarily happen.
I've seen through emails of themgoing to the athletic department
and, you know, the athleticdepartment says we don't have
that contract and they say theydon't have it.
And, you know, um, you're justsort of taking the word from
someone who isn't as bound, uh,by, uh, a particular set of
rules as a FOIA officer is.

(42:02):
So, you know, there's definitelysome difficulties in, in
ensuring the process is, um,Operating the way it's supposed
to.
And I should say almost everyschool has a fantastic floor
officer.
They're really great.
But in talking to them, youknow, some of them said, look,
our university president hassaid, you know, we want to be
open.
We'll give you this.
Others have said our universitypresident said, like, let them

(42:24):
sue us.
You know, the rule says theyhave to have it, but they have
to go to court to get it.
So we'll do a denial.
And, you know, it just reallydepends state by state.
I would say some of the I'drather talk about the schools
that have been great.
There's some schools that I wassurprised that were really good.
They expected to difficult with.
Like, LSU has a fantastic FOIAoffice, and I just assumed for
some reason that Louisiana wouldnot have a strong public records

(42:46):
law.
They do.
Michigan State's been amazing.
So, you know, if you're lookingto start out sending public
records reports, I don't wantyou to send them to the schools
I'm doing it to, but there'sbeen a lot.
And then, you know, there'scertain things where I've
already started some appeals.
You know, I'm doing a thinglooking at a lot of these
coaching endowments, theseendowed chairs where, you know,

(43:07):
it's the...
Peter Secchia, defensivecoordinator at Michigan State,
you know, the University ofIllinois denied me their records
for that.
So we filed an appeal with theirFOIA office in the state, you
know, the Attorney General'sFOIA office.
So they like refused to releasethe records on privacy grounds,
which is pretty funny becausethe person's name is on the, you

(43:27):
know, head coaching endowment.
But they said, you know, theyhad a right to this to not be
disclosed.
So that's been sort of, thereare some sort of, you know,
cough gas hurdles you have to gothrough.
But by and large, it's been,I've been really surprised how
smoothly it's gone.
These schools know what the lawis.
They know that they have toabide by it, and most of the
time they do.

SPEAKER_05 (43:49):
Well, that's great.
This new generation of sportsmedia, especially college
football media, I don't think iswell-versed in the investigative
arts like the previousgeneration, the group that I
came up with.
What do you hope collegefootball fans will gain from
FOIA ball?
Is it more about entertainment,accountability, or both?

SPEAKER_00 (44:06):
A little bit of both.
I mean, I might be closer toyour cohort than the younger
cohort, but, you know, the onething I think I really want to
impart is that journalism isfun.
You can have fun with it.
You can do fun things.
It's a very serious profession,but it's also, you should be
allowed to enjoy it.
You know, investigations don'thave to be this, you know,
in-depth, you know, 10,000 wordpiece that's, you know, exposing

(44:30):
the governor for, you know...
burying a body somewhere.
You can look into anything.
You can find out stuff aboutanything.
People are desperate and cravingfor information.
Not everything has to be thebiggest story in the world.
So I want to have fun.
I want to do some accountabilitystories.
We have a lot of those in theworks.
We have some really interestingthings.
Coming up, we're launching, Ishould say, on August 28th.

(44:51):
That's when the first newsletteris going to be.
So please sign up now.
Like I said, local policedepartments communicating with
college schools.
We have records of them givingbody cam footage of arrested
players to schools without sortof prompting, which is maybe not
illegal, but it shows sort ofthis very interesting back
channel.
We have some interestingdocuments about how the

(45:13):
Department of Homeland Securityis monitoring college football
games.
So there's definitely going tobe a lot of investigation stuff
that has a lot of teeth.
But the one thing I want to dois never stop having fun along
the way.
I love college football.
I think it's one of the most funsports.
I think it has the most absurdand weird quirks of any sport
out there.
And I want to embrace that.
Just because I'm reporting on aschool or saying this program is

(45:37):
doing this wrong or that wrong,it doesn't mean I don't like
them.
I like pretty much every school.
I think they all have theirentertaining bits.
So I'm a fan of it.
And as such, I want to just sortof showcase as much of it as I
can.
Some of it will be airing a bitof dirty stuff, but it's nothing
that they're not doing.
It's all in the public record.
So it all deserves to be outthere.

SPEAKER_05 (45:59):
So where do you see Foleyball in five years?
Is it going to be a nichewatchdog site, a mainstream
investigative hub, or somethingelse entirely?

SPEAKER_00 (46:07):
I have not thought about that yet because we've
just been focusing on launching.
I'd love for it to be...
Uh, everyone dreams to be ofbeing a little bigger, you know,
if this goes well, I'd love toexpand it to, to college
basketball, women's and men,both are really burgeoning, you
know, same with NIL.
Those are two untapped markets,uh, Olympic sports at public
universities.
Those have had lots of scandals,I'll just say.

(46:28):
Uh, and that is a area that isvery ripe for coverage.
So if I could bring on morepeople, expand to sort of a, a
hub for public records reportingon all types of college sports,
I would love that.
Um, but you know, if it justturns into a niche little site
that I get to, uh, you knowpublish my mini scoops on I'll
be very happy with that too all

SPEAKER_05 (46:46):
right so FOIAball.com David Cavucci
mastermind and investigatorextraordinaire bringing some
transparency to college footballalways needed and we appreciate
you coming on the show thank youthank you for having me Well, I
don't know about you guys, butI'm kind of curious to see some
of this new reporting fromDavid's site.

(47:07):
What's again, FOIA ball, stuffon the mascots.
That is some crazy stuff forsure.
One of my favorite parts of theseason is when I get to talk to
Heisman trustee Jim Corcoran.
There are, of course, 11trustees.
They serve pro bono.
They act as stewards of theHeisman brand.
And of course, they oversee theHeisman's charitable mission.

(47:29):
One of the things I think you'llhear when you listen to Jim talk
is you can hear the passion forcollege football, for the
Heisman, for the charitablemission that the Heisman has
taken on.
And if you love college footballand its history and its lore and
its pageantry, then I thinkyou'll appreciate what Jim has
to say.
All right, as we usually do atthe start of the season and, of
course, at the end of theseason, we are connecting now

(47:52):
with Heisman trustee JimCorcoran.
Jim, welcome back to the HeismanTrophy podcast.

SPEAKER_06 (47:58):
Chris, thanks for having me.
It's always good to touch baseat the beginning of every year,
see how things are going.

SPEAKER_05 (48:05):
Absolutely.
You know, last year, the Heismanceremony drew its best TV
audience since 2019 as TravisHunter and Ashton Denty battled
it out.
We certainly had a unique andmemorable winner with Hunter
being the first truly full-timetwo-way player to win the
Heisman since 1961, Ernie Davis.
This all happened despite the12-team playoff sucking up a lot

(48:28):
of the media coverage and theoxygen around that time of year.
What were your impressions ofthe 2024 edition of the Heisman
Trophy race?

SPEAKER_06 (48:36):
Um, I liked the way it was handled.
Uh, as you said, it was, I thinkthe most watched, uh, Heisman in
quite some time.
I think the candidates that camein are obviously you could see
they're all in the pros rightnow, uh, going through training
camp.
I think they were, uh, theyrecord, they, they showed their,
their show, their stripes, so tospeak by representing their

(49:00):
schools and, uh, who all hadgood years as we know.
Um, And I'll be curious to seehow the winner, Travis Hunter,
and the other contenders thatcame in that did not win.
I'd like to see how they'regoing to do this year.
The pros should be interesting.

SPEAKER_05 (49:18):
Yes, absolutely.
Of course, last year we also sawthe traditional Heisman Gala
change from a nighttime blacktie event to a Sunday brunch.
How did that go?
And do you envision doing thesame kind of thing this year?

SPEAKER_06 (49:30):
Good question.
Good point.
You know, so many years, 75 plusyears of having that dinner on
Sunday night or Monday night.
It was one.
We were wondering how traditionwas going to be affected.
And along came the collegefootball playoffs, NIL, a lot of

(49:53):
kids moving, going places.
So last year, as you mentioned,we decided to go with a brunch.
For those listeners out there,if they don't know, the Heisman
Trophy presentation is alwaysthe second Saturday of every
December.
And that's because it's theactual perfect time before

(50:14):
playoffs, uh, and championshipgames and things like that and
bowl games.
So, um, as that's been collegefootball, playoff system is, is
starting to get larger.
I don't know.
What is our number right now,Chris?
Are we

SPEAKER_05 (50:28):
at 12, 12 and they're talking about 16, of
course,

SPEAKER_06 (50:32):
12 going to 16.
And if they do go to 16, um, youknow, we're going to have to
play it by ear.
Uh, uh, It's possible that thatsecond Saturday, there could
possibly be some games.

SPEAKER_03 (50:47):
So

SPEAKER_06 (50:47):
you may have a contender that might not be able
to show up.
I think if you looked at lastyear, all four candidates that
came in, all of them had a bye.
and were playing two weeks afterthe announcement was made.
So it was okay.

(51:08):
But I think you're probablygoing to run into some issues
down the road where, you know,remember, you can go back to
some of the earlier HeismanTrophy winners that were either
serving the armed forces thatweren't able to get to New York,
that were on TV.
But that brunch turned out to bereally a great thing.

(51:32):
Lots of compliments from a lotof people who attend saying they
really liked being there onSunday in New York.
You know, the telecast isSaturday night.
It ends, you wake up and youhave to wait all day for the
dinner.
Now it's be there at 11 o'clock.
Let's have a nice brunch andpeople are on their way.

(51:52):
So that tradition will continueto change, Chris, as we move
forward and we learn more aboutWill it go from 12 to 16 to 24?
Where's the peak end?
And what's going to happen?
But good question.

SPEAKER_05 (52:13):
There's also been some discussion as far as trying
to perhaps start the season alittle bit earlier, maybe start
it where week zero is now, thatkind of thing, so that you can
go right into the playoffs.
So I imagine the Heisman's goingto keep a very close eye on that
kind of thing.

SPEAKER_06 (52:30):
Yeah, I mean, I mean, take it for example, we
open up with, you know, Texas,Ohio State.
I mean, what are we talkingabout?
They, they both, you know, Iknow Arch Manning hasn't been
behind center.
He's been waited patiently forhis opportunity.
I assume he's got to be acandidate contender, at least

(52:50):
the beginning of the season, butalso playing against Jeremiah
Smith for Ohio State.
He's going to wide receiver.
He's going to be a contender.
So So, you know, I think that'salways the case that I'm sure
coaches and players anduniversities and Whether it's

(53:11):
the Big Ten or SEC or ACC, youknow, they're always trying to
figure out, you know, how do weget more games in?
Can the kids play more games?
You know, it's hard, Chris, whenyou're playing at that level to
stay healthy, right?
If you're going to play 15games, it's almost like you're
playing an NFL season.
I mean, how many do they playright now?

SPEAKER_05 (53:30):
I mean, 16 games potentially.

SPEAKER_06 (53:33):
16 games.
That sounds like almost an NFLseason.
But it should be interesting.

SPEAKER_05 (53:41):
Yeah, one of the themes that I'm talking about
this season on the podcast is,you know, again, kind of what
I've talked a little bit aboutthe last couple years, which is
the tremendous changes happeningin college football, how they're
going, where the Heisman fitsin, how it can continue to fit
in in the future.
What are some of your bigpicture thoughts on the role of

(54:03):
the Heisman as an institutionand how it can be protected and,
you know, made stronger even?

SPEAKER_06 (54:08):
Well, you know, we're constantly, the 11
trustees, we are constantlyobviously monitoring the
intellectual property rights tothe Heisman.
We're protected there.
So, you know, going forward is,you know...
I don't think college, I'm notthe only one, but my opinion is
I don't think college footballfollowing is, is lowering.

(54:31):
It's only getting bigger andbigger.
So the trophy itself, I believewill continue to be, I think the
best award in sports, um, or atleast, or at least the most
notable of, of, of awards.
Um, but, um, We've got greatsponsors in Nissan and ESPN, and

(54:54):
they continue to do greatthings, and we continue to find
ways to give back to footballand give back to sports, because
for those people out therelistening, the Heisman Trophy
Trust, we are a nonprofit 501c3uh we give away millions of
dollars to charities for underuh underserved underprivileged

(55:20):
uh youth in our country andwe're going to continue to make
that statement and we'rereaching out it was primarily a
lot in the east coast now we'redown in texas we're in
california we're in atlanta uhwe're expanding our our horizon
as far as the reach and you knowdon't be surprised if at some

(55:40):
point international reach is outthere.
That would be...
It's being done by all sports,I'm sure.
You know what happens when a NFLfootball team goes over and
plays overseas, right?
They can't get enough tickets,Chris.

SPEAKER_05 (55:57):
They love it.
The Germans love football, as itturns out.

SPEAKER_06 (56:00):
Oh, my Lord.
The concept of that is prettygood.

SPEAKER_05 (56:05):
One little thing I wanted to ask you about, I think
we talked about it on a previousinterview, is the concept of the
Heisman voters, right?
I think there's been some chat.
of perhaps paring down orreviewing the group, maybe
trying to get a more like, youknow, maybe something leaner and

(56:26):
meaner.
I'm not sure.
Have you guys talked about that?
Really

SPEAKER_06 (56:30):
good question.
And I think that's people who'vebeen following the Heisman for
years like you have.
I think it's always good to makesure that the voters are
knowledgeable watch collegefootball really love that they

(56:53):
have the ability to make a votetowards the winner that's
something we look at all thetime and we're constantly
looking at should we be using872 sports writers or should
that be a smaller numberpersonally I think it's probably
a smaller number you know I'mnot talking about taking it from

(57:15):
800 down to 400, but making achange and making sure that
every individual is really whomakes a vote and has a vote is
watching and paying attentionbecause there's nothing better.
Take, for example, jump to, andI know you just saw it this last

(57:37):
weekend, MLB, Major LeagueBaseball, and they're Hall of
Fame inductees.
I mean, I believe, just likeDerek Jeter, I believe Ichiro
was in the Hall of Fame and oneof the voters didn't vote him
in.
So I don't know if that's atough crowd.

(57:57):
I would actually put that personon a conversation and say, what
were you possibly thinking?
So people do make mistakes.
I get it.
But, you know, when things are,It seems like that apparent.
Are they just doing it becausethey don't want to make a person

(58:18):
a first-time voter?
And so it kind of reverts backto these 872 voters that you're
talking about, the sportswriters, plus the former
winners.
They're making a vote that'schanging history.
And as long as they're taking itseriously, very meaningful, then
I'm good.

(58:38):
But for those who, you know,maybe there's a sports writer
out there that covers hockey andhe doesn't cover football.
He may be a good sports fan, butif he's not watching like you
and I, you know, it's easy tojust kind of pick the top five
guys at the big schools and say,these are our candidates.
But I think you got to payattention to some of the great

(59:00):
individual performances that arebeing made from other schools.

SPEAKER_05 (59:04):
Yeah.
Well, you know, and I know thatthere's a ton of money right now
in college football.
It's just getting bigger andbigger and bigger.
I've seen reports that someschools are considering allowing
advertisers to have space ontheir jerseys, uniforms,
helmets, all that kind of thing.
If that is the way that collegefootball goes, I was thinking

(59:26):
about this.
And for example, what if, coulda player buy a Heisman patch and
put it on their helmet uh andmaybe no money no

SPEAKER_06 (59:35):
they could you know the the actual heisman logo and
the marks can't be used unlesswe approve of them right so that
would never happen but you'reyou're what

SPEAKER_05 (59:46):
if they donate what if they donate a hundred
thousand to charity and returnto get the they get the the mark
on their on their shoulder pador on their helmet a sticker on
their helmet

SPEAKER_06 (59:56):
um you know i i That has been brought up to us.

(01:00:28):
They are.
They are.
The kid from Florida, the kidthat won the national

(01:00:48):
championship for the guard forFlorida, he left, didn't go to
St.
John's because Florida alumnioffered him money to go play in
Florida, and he won them anational championship.
So I think that your question isimportant because what you don't
want is you don't need money andfunds pushing who the winner of

(01:01:15):
the Heisman Trophy is.
I don't care about the otherawards.
I don't know what they'rethinking, but I'm thinking you
want the best player on thefield that has proven that he
is...
He is worthy of being called aHeisman Trophy winner.
I think that will happen, butlike you said, if you were an AD
or you were a coach or you werea president of a university and

(01:01:38):
you could continue to have awinning program and you were
putting money towards promotingplayers come here, you'll win
the Heisman Trophy.
I'm sure.
I mean, some of the big schoolshave won multiple Heisman
Trophies.
I'm

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:53):
sure when they recruit.
They did that before.
They did that before all thismoney came in.
There's always been campaigns.
Always

SPEAKER_06 (01:02:00):
campaigns.
That's what I meant.
Campaigns.

SPEAKER_05 (01:02:02):
And so I'm just curious, there is that balance
between, like you say, keepingthe integrity of the brand and
the integrity of the award, andthen also the charitable
mission.
So I was just curious if therewas a situation like that where,
man, man.
It's very limited, verytargeted, but it really helps
the charitable mission.

(01:02:23):
But how much of the brand do youlet that erode just slightly
versus bringing in more moneyfor the trust?
I'm always curious about howthat balances.

SPEAKER_06 (01:02:35):
Now, I mean, if there was something general that
maybe across all of collegefootball, there was some type of
Heisman patch that promoted thegame or did some things I don't
know that's probably aconversation for another time
that we need to have but I'mwith you the integrity of the

(01:02:57):
trophy I mean it always comesback these schools can promote
their kids all they want

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:03):
But

SPEAKER_06 (01:03:03):
when it comes down to it, you've got voters that
are paying attention and sayinghe's only run for 300 yards this
season.
How can you say he's anautomatic Heisman camp, right?
So there's always that.
But I think, once again, for me,the award has always been for
the season.
And you have great individualone-game performances where you

(01:03:29):
actually say when the game'sover, Oh, my gosh.
That guy's a Heisman candidate.
But if they don't do it again orif they don't keep up the
numbers, and it's unfortunatelysometimes those– is it wins that
make a Heisman Trophy winner thebetter guy?
Is it most interceptions?

(01:03:49):
Is it most touchdowns?
What is it that's– to me, it'sthe person who's most– most
important to their team andsomeone that make, you know,
who's our last, who's our lastHeisman trophy winner to play on
a losing team?

SPEAKER_05 (01:04:07):
Paul Horning.

SPEAKER_06 (01:04:07):
Paul Horning.
I knew you knew that answer.
Paul Horning.
And so, and curious, it wasNotre Dame football back then in
19.
56.
56.
Boy, you know it all.
56.
So it's, you know, so, but, Weknow that the academies in Notre

(01:04:28):
Dame football was pretty mucheverything back

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:30):
then.

SPEAKER_06 (01:04:32):
But I really believe that you're going to see more
and more opportunities of kidsfrom schools that haven't won a
trophy.
Isn't it great if you can get aHeisman Trophy winner?
Now, Travis was the second one,

SPEAKER_05 (01:04:47):
right?

SPEAKER_06 (01:04:48):
We had Rashad

SPEAKER_05 (01:04:51):
Salam.
30 years to the

SPEAKER_06 (01:04:53):
season, yeah.
God rest his soul.
What a great, great, great youngman he was.
But just to think took 30 yearsto have another winner come from
that school.
So, um, it's, it's interestingevery year and they're already
talking about it.
They've already got candidatesfor this year lined up who they

(01:05:13):
think is, uh, who's gonna be thefavorite, but sure.
Time will tell.
Don't you think Chris?

SPEAKER_05 (01:05:20):
Absolutely.
It usually does.
Jim, I want to thank you forcoming by on behalf of the
Heisman Trust, sharing yourthoughts and visions for the
Heisman going forward.
And of course, looking back onsome great stuff as well.
And yeah, we'll probably haveyou on as usual right at the end
of the season.

SPEAKER_06 (01:05:37):
Chris, you do a great job.
Keep up the good work.
I think there's a lot more forpeople to get their arms around
when it comes to the Heisman,the trophy, its mission and all
those things.
But it's Is there anythingbetter than when you hit August
and you know you got three weeksaway?
It goes from 95 to 75, and I'mwalking down the block, and Don,

(01:06:00):
the weightlifter across thestreet, yells over at me, can
you believe college football'sgetting ready to go?
Here we go.
Here we go again.
It should be an exciting year.
I'm curious.
Obviously, some big games rightout of the blocks that can
change things.
People's lives and team's lives.

(01:06:21):
So it should be great for allthe people listening out there.
Once again, this brunch is opento the public.
You can buy tickets.
You can come to the event.
And if you, I think you have theability, if you buy enough
tickets, to the event on Sunday,you can have the ability to
possibly go to the presentationon Saturday by buying a table or

(01:06:44):
two.
So I'm sure they'll reach out toyou.
But if there's anything you everneed, Chris, thank you for all
you do.

SPEAKER_05 (01:06:52):
Well, hey, you know what?
I'm here because of you guys.
And I love doing it and lovetalking about the Heisman and
talking about what makes it sospecial.

SPEAKER_06 (01:07:02):
Thanks very much, Chris.
Have a great, great, great year.
Thanks, Jim.
You got it.

SPEAKER_05 (01:07:10):
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the salt of the
earth right there.
Well, I hope you enjoyed thisshow.
This was a packed show.
I don't think we've ever donefour interviews before.

(01:07:43):
He is our featured guest, andthen the show after that, I will
have content from the big game,Texas at Ohio State, Archie
Griffin getting honored for his50th anniversary of his second
Heisman Trophy win in 1975, andmaybe a surprise or two along
the way.
Please, if you enjoyed the show,don't forget to like, subscribe,
review, give us all theaccolades you can, tell your

(01:08:06):
friends, tell your partners, leteverybody know that this is the
podcast with the insane guestlist.
Thank you for your attention tothis matter.

(01:08:38):
The Heisman Trophy podcaststreams every Wednesday during
the college football season andis hosted, produced, edited, and
engineered by Chris Houston.
The pod is available on allstreaming networks, including
Spotify and Apple Music, andfeatures video interviews and
bonus content on YouTube andTikTok.
We also have a Reddit community.
Special shout out to IsaacLowenkron, and big thanks to Rob

(01:08:58):
Whalen, Tim Henning, and theHeisman Trust for their support.
Reach out to us via email at podat heisman.com for feedback and
commentary.

UNKNOWN (01:09:08):
you