April 15, 2024 • 54 mins
In this episode, mortal and TAM highlight 3 personal, vulnerable articles and finding or expressing the writer's truth in the midst of illusions and smoke screens.
We start with an article by Matthew Maniaci about "opinions" on human rights. Followed by Amelie D. Phoenix's piece about the realization and escape from an abusive partner. We round out the episode with a very personal piece by Annie Trevaskis about her son and his struggles to ask for help.
As you might be familiar with, plenty of deep talk and tangents, as only TAM and mort can do. :D
For more about writing with vulnerability, visit themonsteralley.com. You can find all these writers (and us) on Medium.com!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, I'm Tam.
(00:01):
And I'm Eternally Mortal.
And this is the Hidden Egg Podcast where we talk about vulnerability.
And stuff.
And things.
And things, exactly.
Welcome back to the Hidden Egg Podcast, episode four of season four, where we go over medium
articles and talk about the vulnerability within and the vulnerability within ourselves
(00:24):
as we read them.
Did that sum it up pretty well?
Yeah, that sounded really professional.
I really liked that.
Good job.
Heck yeah.
I've been like neck deep in corporate for weeks now.
I also-
Driving me mad.
Before we get too far in, I want to apologize for the fact that my throat has been real
rough the past few days.
(00:46):
So I might not talk as much and I might be clearing my throat a lot more.
It's a thing.
It's a process.
Yeah.
And I'm going to try and take a little bit more-
Or think it.
I'm going to try and take a little bit more of the lead on the conversations today, but
I'm probably going to get lost and meander.
And hopefully you can bop me if I go a little too-
(01:09):
Yeah, so you are able to see my screen too, right?
I am, yeah.
In the live thing.
Okay.
So you'll know what the article is, but you have your own articles too.
I do have the articles up as well.
I have yours in kind of a little bitty screen so that I can still see the audience, but
(01:29):
I see what's up and so I can look at the articles when I know what's up there.
Gotcha.
Okay.
Well, the first one, if you don't mind us moving forward.
Yeah.
I'll go ahead and bring it up when you're ready.
The first article we were going to just quickly give a little shout out for was written by
our very own Sturge currently in our chat called Why I Abstained from the Internet on
(01:55):
April 1st this year, a subtext I am not a huge fan of practical jokes these days so
I might've been trying to protect myself.
By the Sturge on Medium.
Yeah.
Yeah, I really liked your April Fool story in my mouth.
Apparently it doesn't work.
Do not take that out of context.
Oh, they will, but that's okay.
(02:17):
Yeah, I really liked how vulnerable it was and we definitely agree with your consensus
here.
April Fool's isn't all that funny.
There's enough misinformation.
We don't need a holiday with it.
Also pranks are like really shitty.
There's certain things that I'm okay with, but it's only when both people are, or all
(02:38):
people I should say, are consenting and in on it and people don't like those quote unquote
pranks sometimes because they feel staged.
Have you heard of those positive pranks?
There's a guy that does catcalling, but it's like an affirmational catcalling.
So like-
I think I've seen some shorts on that.
He'll watch some women go by and he'll have like this megaphone and be like, I bet you
(02:59):
do your taxes on time.
Or stuff that's just basic compliments that-
Aren't about the regular catcalling shit like boobs and butts.
I like pranks like that, but anything like most people, their idea of pranks are stupid.
Yeah.
And I'm not a fan, but I am a fan of Sturge's article here because it was very, very vulnerable
(03:25):
and personal.
It went through how Sturge interacted with pranks earlier in his life and the turnaround
that he went through and it was just, it was touching.
And so many moments.
You just see Ben's comments.
How dare you assume I pay my taxes on time.
(03:49):
Yeah.
There was a specific moment in the article that really hit me like, wow, I really feel
that that's the thing that I wrote.
You highlighted it.
Well, was it?
Because I don't see anything that I highlighted on this one.
You told me you were highlighting it when you were reading it.
Sometimes that might've been a different, we just looked at five articles.
(04:10):
Like it's possible.
There's one of the other ones too.
But yeah, it was really good.
I don't want to read the whole thing.
Go check it out.
Sturge wrote an amazing article about April Fool's Day and pranks in general.
Okay.
And then the other shout out article is by Lynn, L-I-N, who was published in the Thought
Thinkers, which Ben is the, Ben Ulanci is the, I think the owner.
(04:34):
Aren't you the owner of it?
I'm pretty sure.
But it's called, What If We're Not Really Alive?
Yeah, Ben is.
Okay.
And subtitle, An Innocent Game of Call of Duty Turned Into a Full Blown Existential
Crisis.
Yeah.
We liked this one, but it doesn't really fit the vulnerability vibe as much.
(04:55):
But it was still a really good done, well done article.
It was, and it was a very vulnerable moment for the author.
Absolutely.
I just totally experienced that sort of thing and like Tam and I have like at length four
years discussed like our treatment of video game characters and how it matters.
So many hours of conversation.
(05:17):
Right.
Absolutely.
And so yeah, it was, that's, I mean, it's hard to really like pick out individual bits
because like this just flows from one thing into a next, into what you would imagine an
existential crisis is, you know, like going through like beating on the building blocks
(05:39):
of what makes a sentient reality.
You know, I was actually really surprised that this one didn't get more attention.
Cause I mean, it's only got 301 claps and two replies or whatever.
And one of them's me.
(06:00):
So yeah, it was, it was really well done.
I strongly recommend anyone listening to go read it.
I'll put it in the, the places where I put things, put the links.
Do that.
That's the thing you should totally do.
But it was a really good article.
I enjoyed reading it.
It was my first introduction to Lynn's work.
(06:20):
So it was nice.
Yeah.
And then onto the first article that we will actually be talking about in depth.
And that one's yes.
Matthew Maniachi.
Yeah.
Matthew Maniachi wrote basic human rights are not an opinion.
I can and will end relationships over bigotry.
(06:43):
And talk, just talking about the article to start out with, like there's so many things
in here that very much the title does expressly state what you're going to be getting with
this article.
There's so many things in here that I wish I had the cojones to say out loud to people
because I do get very fired up about many forms of bigotry and the inherent like need
(07:11):
to follow in the footsteps of bigotry like infuriates me.
And Maniachi put so much work into like really drawing out exactly what it is that was irritating
about that and how it is like wrong and silly to just other people and make them make them
(07:31):
lesser than you in your mind.
Like there's it was it was pretty awesome as an article.
I really like it.
As I read it like I've reached both times because I read it twice.
Both times when I read it, I kept thinking to myself like I really just want to read
this out loud on the podcast.
I mean, we're like the whole thing.
(07:52):
Yeah, the whole thing.
Because like just saying the words, like they all have so much power.
He's got so much so many good points and the emotion behind every single word is like yes,
yes, yes, yes, through the whole thing.
And I wanted to put I know it kind of was a little awkward about this, Tam, when you
(08:15):
and I were talking about it.
But I want to I want to do mention that like we we actually like interacted with Matthew
Maniachi in the past in IRL.
I haven't spoken and revealed myself yet to to him through medium to let him know that
(08:35):
I'm me and from this past or anything.
I feel a little awkward about it, but it was a random find to find out that someone that
we knew from back in the day was writing on medium as well.
And Matthew Maniachi has written an article a day for a very long time, I think.
I don't know if he writes every single day.
I don't I don't think he actually keeps up that that hardcore with it.
(08:58):
But some days, you know, he's been he's been writing for years, apparently.
Yeah, I just thought that was really cool.
But yeah, I mean, do you want me to get more in depth into some of the bits of this article?
Because it was pretty.
Yeah, I mean, I was going to say, like, one of the things I liked most about this article
(09:22):
was the idea that like people will have this this argument about what was it?
Is it that he said that they'll argue that it's not tolerant and that that, you know,
that it's their opinion?
And he's like, no, this isn't an opinion.
Liking pineapple on pizza is an opinion.
(09:43):
However, when you've decided that somebody doesn't deserve to live, that's not an opinion.
That's a moral that's a moral stance.
Yeah, absolutely.
And he calls so many things out specifically.
He calls out, you know, treating women as lesser than men.
He calls out the bigotry of racism, the sexism, gender isms, you know, like.
(10:11):
He even goes into immigration.
Yeah, absolutely.
And how people call immigrants illegals as if a person could be exempt from basic human
rights just because they're quote unquote illegal.
Right.
But you know, nobody talks about how if you go, you know, sixty five in a 50 zone, you're
(10:33):
technically illegal, too.
Do you no longer deserve human rights?
Sure.
Absolutely.
Food for thought.
There was something I was going to say, but you kind of jogged it out of my brain.
That's OK.
Yeah.
But yeah, no one deserves human rights.
(10:57):
Well, at least it's at least you're consistent, you know, at that point, it's not a moral
stance against certain people.
It's just a moral stance against everybody.
Right.
Well, until we get, you know, different aliens and stuff like that.
And then it's a specific group of people again.
You know, human rights.
You don't know.
(11:18):
He could decide that nobody does like even not even the aliens deserve human rights.
They are exclusionary.
They don't.
Nobody deserves them.
I think it's really interesting that like I think we've I think as a society, we've
pretty much decided on what it means.
Basic human rights, you know, like we're basically saying that every human deserves the rights
(11:38):
to what they need to survive.
Right.
Food, shelter, clothing or whatever.
Is clothing necessary anymore?
Yes, but it's deeper than that.
Human rights are also about like like respect and dignity.
Well, when when you're like having a war, there are certain methods of torture that
(11:59):
when they come out, like we all as a group kind of decide, you know what, that's inhumane.
And yeah, you shouldn't do that even even in wars.
Does it stop people?
I don't know.
No.
Shelter for profit.
Yeah, you're right.
(12:20):
Surge Americans do still think that shelter for profit is a business model, which is sad.
I don't we have so much space over here.
Like I don't understand why people get upset about tiny homes for poor homeless people.
Do you hear about that?
There's I don't remember where it was at, but there's some neighborhood of tiny homes,
(12:45):
you know, like they're the size of a freaking truck at best.
I want one.
And there's like this charity that they build the tiny homes and then they go around and
they get homeless people.
And it's like a whole community and the homeless people, they come in and they get support.
There's a counselor, a social worker that comes to the neighborhood to help them get
(13:07):
themselves acclimated to a community experience.
They help them figure out where they would want to work.
They get them into a job.
Hopefully a lot of them actually move out and become members of society again.
And it has become this whole like rehabilitation place for homeless people.
(13:29):
Good.
Something that we very badly needed.
I mean, if you want to talk about people that were dehumanized for a long time, it was definitely
homeless people.
And yet most places are spending millions, if not billions of dollars on architecture
to keep homeless people from sleeping there.
(13:50):
Right.
It's such bullshit.
And like that was part of the fact, the part of this article that I was really like resonating
with is that Maniachi made a very clear delineation between, you know, liberal and conservative,
like liberals care for the well-being of all peoples, regardless of anything.
And conservatives seem to want to be able to say we as conservative people are better
(14:16):
than other people.
Like I've talked to layman conservatives just out in the wild, just people that are, you
know, casual vote Trump voters.
Vote Trumpers?
What the fuck?
Anyway, they do Trump.
I know, right.
And they just genuinely think that there's just going to always be groups of people that
(14:38):
are worse than them.
And they include me as part of them in those conversations, which honestly I'm not super
okay with, but I don't know how to.
I don't know that we've, I know that you've brought that up before and we've talked about
this before, but this time you saying it, something clicked in my brain and it really
sounds to me a lot like my experiences growing up in an abusive household where like, cause
(15:03):
you know, you know how I have difficulties with comparisons and with somebody needing
to be at fault and blame.
All of those things have this sort of hierarchy feel to it where somebody is on top and somebody
is on bottom.
And I don't mean that in the dirty way, but I feel like that is a product of an abusive
(15:27):
environment.
And if you have this idea that somebody has to be on top and somebody has to be on bottom,
that two people can't be equal, then it's a really big indicator that you may be in
or have been in a highly abusive environment.
Right.
Yeah, absolutely.
(15:47):
And it's so very common around first world experience because I don't have any other
experience in that.
But like all the people that I know were just like super into competition in a certain way
and a lot of it, when I got to know those people and understand their motivations for
what they decided to do was because they wanted to feel better than other people.
(16:10):
And that was when I started throwing video games.
I stopped really trying to beat people as a child in video games.
I stopped trying to do the game the best that I could and instead tried to make it to where
the other person didn't realize that I let them win or didn't realize that I wasn't
trying very hard.
Some of them could have just beat me always.
I'm not trying to say I'm like God at video games, though, you know, anyway, I wouldn't
(16:34):
recommend anybody actually doing that for other people because it's been really damaging
for you.
However, I will say that your ability to do that, to just be basically just be the bottom
every time to be the one low man on the totem pole in every argument, in every circumstance,
(16:56):
that was what I seemed to need in order to see the disparity.
I didn't realize that it was abuse until you were so consistently anti argument, like you
didn't want you never you never fought to be the one on top.
(17:17):
And that was something that was really new to me.
I never experienced that before.
I know Sturge laughing too.
I'm the perpetual bottom.
How can I not laugh anyway?
So I don't know.
I'm sure there's a healthy way of doing it.
So I don't want people to go out there and just think that they just need to be railroaded.
(17:39):
And that's what fixes all the abusers, because I don't think that that's a good idea either.
But I do think there's some element of no longer like participating, just don't participate
in this whole better or worse thing.
And when they say, well, I deserve this, you say, yes, you do deserve this.
(18:00):
You don't have to fight them about it.
It's the only time that you have to really insert anything is when they say, well, those
people don't deserve, but yes, they do.
They deserve this.
Well, but I deserve.
Yes, you do.
Like, I don't know.
It's a possible direction that could be taken.
Yeah, definitely.
(18:21):
I wanted to say, I'm kind of going a little bit backwards, but I'm coming around to agreeing
with what you just said.
That like my experience growing up was what led me to the decision, more or less, to let
that happen.
Like middle school, more or less, the traumatic parts of middle school to where I really felt
(18:43):
like I was the most alone that I've ever felt and hated really pushed me to the point where
I was like, this is what it seems like needs to happen to be able to just be ourselves.
If someone feels like they've already won, then they just are who they are.
(19:09):
And that leads to some people towards abuse because once they feel like they've won, they
might try and just, you know, like play with the power that they have over you.
And I've certainly experienced that.
But it was just so much nicer to be able to find out who people are, what they're into,
what their passions are.
(19:30):
Can I ask you a tangential question?
Sure.
So you have put yourself aside for probably hundreds of people in favor of letting them
be right, letting them talk about themselves, etc.
I know that you and I have talked about this in private how few people actually come back
(19:52):
around to do that in exchange with you or even think about you as your own separate
person.
I don't expect you to do what they're doing and fight to be heard instead of actually
trying to listen to you.
So my question is, what would you say the ratio is like out of every hundred people
(20:14):
that you bend over backwards to let them win and let them talk about whatever they want
to talk about?
How many of those people would you expect to at some point, maybe not even every time,
but at some point ask about you unprompted?
Two or three?
(20:39):
If I could look at the last hundred people that I've been like that at work with, you
know, because especially at work because it's already a stressful situation and people are
already just stressed.
I just let people win a lot there and there's a few people at work that will take that moment
(20:59):
after they feel after the conversation's ended and look at me and be like, huh, how are you
doing?
You know, with not the how's it going, but the really paying attention to something that's
a part of me, something that I'm into.
Like I almost named people, what an ass.
There's a person that I've like gushed once or twice about how much I like Rocket League
(21:24):
and you know, a couple months later they asked me if there's anything up with that.
I'm like, aw, damn, that's so cute.
You remembered.
Oh, we've lost Ben, but maybe he'll come back.
So and like one of the dudes that's kind of antagonistic to me in a certain regard, but
(21:49):
he thinks it's friendly, does pick up on things on aspects of who I am and ask me questions
about stuff.
In fact, from his perspective, he tries to help me and have a more healthy perspective.
I don't agree with him, but I appreciate the intent.
(22:09):
And that that two to three people in every hundred, do you think that that is like, do
you think that the possibility of that increases with how often you're around them or is it
just that's just the percentage?
It's definitely time with them.
(22:31):
Like if you were to be able to have a counter that only counted up when I'm hanging out
with them, the higher that count went, the more likely they would feel like they'd been
able to say everything that they wanted to say and be interested in what it is that I
might be into.
But there is a little bit of a variable in that, you know, if I don't see them for a
couple of weeks and a whole bunch of shit happens to them and those in that couple of
(22:54):
weeks, then unlikely.
Like I don't mean this negatively because I love you dearly, but it took a long time
in a certain regard for you.
Oh yeah.
But at the same time, it took years.
You're one of the only ones that has been able to, you're the only one that's been
able to get as deep with paying attention to who I am and how I think and what I care
(23:18):
about as no one has gotten nearly as deep as you.
There's other people that are still making the attempt currently and it delights me that
that's happening and I appreciate that greatly.
But I'm so guarded, it's so difficult to penetrate that outer skin to even find something to
be interested in.
(23:39):
Like it's just, I'm so good at being able to promote whatever it is that you're into
or passionate about that it takes a lot of effort to think, to ask.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Yeah.
The ratio that I had from like the first few years of our relationship, the ratio was bad.
(23:59):
It was like for every conversation, for every, maybe it was like for every hundred conversations
we had, there was one where I was actually asking about you.
All those other 99, I was just very self-focused.
Yeah real quick, because we're a little off topic.
(24:21):
I do want to say that like, you know, after an enormous amount of trauma, I think that
it takes a lot of time to be able to heal enough to be able to look outside again.
You know, if you get super duper sick and have to have like, you know, an appendix removed
or something even worse than that, it's going to be a long time before you're able to just
get up and walk around again.
(24:41):
Well, you know what I mean?
We did meander away from the point, but it does actually kind of segue into the next
article if you wanted to move on to that.
That's true.
That's true.
Go check out Matthew Maniachi's article.
All right, moving on.
We're going to talk now about, yeah, I see the screen.
The straw that broke the narcissist trauma bond.
Hi, Ethan.
(25:04):
Okay.
Hi, Ethan.
Okay.
But yeah, The Day I Knew I Was Gaslighting Myself was the subtitle there by Amelie or
Amelie D. Phoenix.
It reminds me of Monkey D. Luffy, but that's anime, sorry.
I've never heard of that anyway.
(25:25):
Yeah, so this was a story about the narcissist in her life.
And you know, my stance on narcissists and abusers is a little unpopular.
And I don't need to convince her to give him any chances whatsoever.
(25:51):
I want to put that out there.
But the segue is that no matter how narcissistic a person is, there is always the possibility
that they are just really traumatized and need to get help to work through that trauma.
(26:11):
And then they can be real people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's no average person, it is never their responsibility to make that happen for their
abuser or narcissist.
That is not at all what I'm saying.
I'm just putting it out there that the guy that she talks about in here, while admittedly
(26:36):
it reveals that he was probably pretty shitty to her.
It's possible if he went independently to go get some help, he could eventually fix
himself, basically.
Right.
I don't believe that there's anybody that's outside the realm of rehabilitation and change.
(26:58):
You'd be surprised.
People who have been abused tend to, well, you know, I used to talk about my abuser as
like, no, he was irredeemable.
There was no point.
Yep.
And for a time, I think most people who have been victims of abuse kind of almost need
(27:19):
that because they need to separate themselves from any sort of blame or responsibility for
that person because that person tends to have in their abuse attached responsibility of
their problems to the victim and what they've done.
So you have to pendulum a little bit to get away.
(27:41):
Also Ben's back, just so you know.
Welcome back, Ben.
So yeah, to talk a little bit more about the article, or am I cutting you off in the middle
of the thought?
Yeah, I want to talk more about the article.
So yeah, Amelie Phoenix's article was like a very specific story in an event that happened,
(28:05):
you know, like that showed her exactly what it was that she was dealing with.
And it is incredibly well written and very evocative.
You can just feel every moment of it, to be honest.
And it does definitely call out.
I guess we can reference who this person is to her, right?
(28:25):
That's okay.
I think so.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's her husband, probably ex-husband.
I have no idea how long ago this article was, but clearly a relationship that was ending
and a catastrophe, like massive catastrophe happened.
And this person, this husband was not capable in that moment of extending himself.
(28:51):
He wasn't even there.
Right.
That's kind of the thing.
You couldn't seem to connect with any part of it in a reasonable way.
Right.
And I remember reading it and like, you know, Tam, I think you, I talked to you about this
privately that I kind of like had a moment of relating to the feeling of being unable
(29:16):
to help someone you care about in a catastrophe, just being too overwhelmed for that sort of
thing.
But I don't know that I really need to apply that to this particular person because it
sounds like, based on what we've gotten from this one article, that like the reason why
they were unwilling to help out in that moment, that he was unwilling to help out in that
(29:38):
moment is because he was still butthurt about something really silly.
Well, I think that they had separated and he wasn't around or whatever.
But the thing is, the thing about abuse is that it looks so similar to things that aren't
abuse.
Yeah.
Like true abuse.
Well, I don't want to say true abuse because overt abuse is abuse, too.
(30:01):
But there's so many more covert abuses that are just as damaging.
And you don't notice them.
But she points out in her story, like, there's a difference.
Well, she doesn't point it out, I guess.
But there's a difference between being overwhelmed and then saying, if you need anything, let
me know.
(30:23):
And forgetting to ask about your children.
Yes, that is a very good point.
You know, anytime that you because we raised a child together, anytime that you were overwhelmed
and you were in that that like, just let me know if I need to help out with anything.
You tended to ask how they were doing or did they need any help specifically?
(30:46):
You would also sometimes ask me, like, do I need to talk to them specifically because
you're too overwhelmed?
Right.
So yeah, that when you're a parent, if you're a narcissist, it's pretty clear that you're
a narcissist because you're not like as a parent, you have to set some of your needs
(31:07):
aside to at least know what your child's needs are and determine if you can take care of
your needs or if their needs come first.
Right.
And that's really the key and that's really the litmus test, I'll say, of whether or
not this person has the ability to change because like that close of a bond of a real
(31:30):
bond there is potential because this is your child.
Like, can you come out of yourself enough to realize that you can potentially sacrifice
your time to make other people happy?
I don't want to say that that's the litmus test of whether they can change, but it is
definitely an indicator that if he were to start asking about his children, that would
(31:53):
be a flag that he has changed.
Yeah, that's better.
That's a better way of saying it.
I'm saying everything awkwardly today.
It's so funny.
It's okay.
I had a feeling that was what you meant, but it's not what you said.
So I had to clarify.
It's words.
You're a little low physically.
I'm a little low mentally, so, you know, by our powers combined, we'll somehow get there.
(32:16):
We're a whole person.
We are Voltron.
What?
Not Semetic, Semantic.
No, it's Semantic.
I know.
It's just I had that same moment.
It had, I'm pretty sure, the desired effect.
Sorry for people listening, Sturge just said mortals anti-semantic, but in text.
(32:45):
And so at first glance, it looks like anti-Semitic, which was the intended effect to shock us.
Anyway, I do want to come back to the article again because I was going to say that, like,
one of the things that I really enjoyed about this article is that she walks you through
(33:07):
that day, that memory, without bringing the trauma.
Like, I'm not going to say that it doesn't evoke potential for drama.
There probably should be a trigger warning or whatever, but it doesn't go into the really
(33:28):
traumatic stuff.
She's not like reliving a day when he beat her or like a day when they had a knockdown
argument about something and she was crying for hours or anything.
None of that.
It's just the moment of realization that like, oh, I need to leave.
(33:49):
This isn't working.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That moment of realization is exactly what I was going to talk about too.
You're absolutely right, like walking us through it to that moment is powerful.
That's what you said.
Isn't that what you said?
I don't know.
That's what I meant if it wasn't what I said.
Okay, perfect.
I love it when we're on the same page.
(34:12):
It's so amazing.
Just that being able to record a moment when you've spent years saying all of the stuff
that has happened to me is fine.
I know that deep down this is a good person that's trying their best and so I will just
continue to give.
But I can't take it anymore.
I will just continue to give and I will just continue to give and then that change moment
(34:36):
where you're like, you know what?
I think I've given enough.
Yeah.
I think it's time for me to just be without that and that's an amazing moment.
I'm so happy that this person was able to record that.
I selfishly want to, if she ever comes and listens to the podcast, I would love to hear
her.
I would love to have this writer for Abuse Road.
(34:58):
If anybody, anybody listening at all is wondering what kind of stories do we want on Abuse Road?
I love her story.
She's not saying that he can't change.
So like, I know that there might be a little bone to pick there because I do tend to say
like, don't target abusers as if they're, you know, they're just the way they are.
(35:23):
But the point here is that like she changed.
It doesn't like, he wasn't important to the story, if that makes sense.
Right.
He was present and you knew what sort of husband he was from her perspective through reading
it.
But it didn't unnecessarily flame him.
The article didn't like, it wasn't a hate piece or a vent piece or an anger piece.
(35:48):
Exactly.
Well, at least not directed at someone, you know, it was more directed at her realization
that that was amazing.
Right.
And like there, there may be the potential for her to be thinking that he's never going
to change.
And that could be correct, but like it's never actually stated in there.
So there's always the possibility that someone could come across this, read it and be like,
(36:11):
that's exactly what I'm going through and know that the narcissist in their life may
change and that's okay, but that's not their responsibility.
They don't have to be chained to that.
They don't have to have that hope.
Right.
Because sometimes hope is destructive.
I totally get that.
(36:33):
Right.
Yep.
Exactly.
Shall we move on to our final thing?
Sturge said something.
I don't know what he said, damn it, you two, Tam, about, but apparently you did something.
I don't know.
That's okay.
You do things all the time.
Usually they're good.
Oh, I'm being anti-semantic.
So maybe, maybe we can ask about this.
(36:57):
What do you mean by anti-semantic?
Maybe I'm not fully getting it or you can tell us, you can tell us later after the podcast
if you want to do that either way.
I'm interested though.
Yeah.
Okay.
Got it.
All right.
So the last one, this is our hopeful story and hear me out.
(37:17):
Okay.
So this story, I don't want to give away the answer, like the ending, but I don't.
If we're having this as our hopeful story, we're going to have to be a little, a little
spoiler about it to be honest, but, um, not completely, you know what I mean?
(37:41):
So this story by, this is the story I didn't want to share subtitle.
I'm told these are the stories we should be writing.
What's up?
Sterge says, I feel like you two are going against this writer's wishes.
Do you mean, uh, Ann Travaskis?
Cause that might be, I mean, we might, because technically she didn't put anything in the
(38:03):
title.
Oh, because the title says, this is the story I didn't want to share and we are sharing
it.
I get it.
But you don't think this author is going to hate us, right?
Cause if this author is going to hate us, I will stop immediately.
I mean, if she didn't want to share it, then maybe she shouldn't have shared it enough
to get 8.5 K collapse and 166 responses.
You know, this was a pretty, yeah, it was boosted.
(38:25):
She shared the shit out of it.
Okay.
Yeah, absolutely.
Serg did a really good job.
That's all that happened here.
Serg's comment did was, was fantastic at throwing me off.
No, no, no.
Go away Epic.
No, go away Epic.
Oh, good.
Okay.
So I have to start again.
I have to start again.
This is the story I didn't want to share.
I'm told these are the stories we should be writing by Annie Travaskis.
(38:48):
Apologies if I mispronounced.
And this was Annie.
I said Ann.
I feel so bad.
That's okay.
This is such, such just like a vulnerable and open piece to how a person truly feels.
Like it was, I don't know, it was, it really like was very, very clear to me how this person
(39:09):
felt and I thought it was delightful because like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of
God, I'm trying, I'm being too vague.
You have any thoughts?
I think we're just going to have to say it.
There's so few people that listen to our podcast right now.
I just, I don't think we need to dwell on the details.
I want people to go read this because it's amazing.
(39:31):
Annie Travaskis is a phenomenal author on, on medium.
Um, but I think we're just going to have to explain that like, this is a story about one
of her children had to go into rehab.
Right.
Yes.
That is basically the, the, the essence of the story.
(39:53):
Um, but it tells us so much more than just that.
Like she reveals herself as a mother.
Do you know what I mean?
She really like gets into what it feels like to be the mother of someone that is struggling
with alcoholism and goes into who this person is that is her child, which I think that there's
(40:15):
a lot of parents out there even that can't tell me who their children are.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
I, I, I know a lot of those.
Right.
Exactly.
And so like, you know, I, I feel the bond that comes through this article, just listening
to it.
And, um, you know, there's a lot of tragedy that's wrapped up in this.
(40:40):
This is a person that's dealing with alcoholism and the things that alcoholism can do to you.
It's a person that believed that they were a functioning alcoholic, uh, which is a term
I've heard a million times and I've heard people say it and continue to function to
this day.
And I've heard people that say it and then stop functioning.
However, however, cause you're really going hard into the tragedy of it.
(41:04):
Sorry.
The, the reason why this is a positive article for me is because, well, for two things, the,
the biggest one is that there was, there was a very strong message of hope at the end where
like he reached out to her and said, I need help.
And that's huge.
(41:25):
That's beautiful.
So, so beautiful and huge.
And I find that to be extraordinarily positive.
That is, that's what you need to hear before they go through the rehab and actually make
it, you know?
And then the other thing, which was less obvious, but, um, there was a point where she said
(41:46):
something about that.
She was, she felt ashamed of her ability to help pay for this expensive rehab for her,
for her child to go through.
Right.
And she, she even said specific, uh, explicitly how much it's going to cost her to send him
to the rehab that she thinks will be the best fit for him, the best beneficial benefit for
(42:07):
him.
And then she references how much, you know, like that could feed, how many families I
could feed or whatever.
And I just, I wanted to say that like, I find, I totally understand first and foremost where
that shame comes from.
Like I don't know where it comes from necessarily, but I understand it.
I've been there.
But, but on the other hand, I am so happy that she was able to, the fact that, that
(42:30):
what I, what I could do with that money is inconsequential.
When I look at her in her position, she had that money and I am very happy for her to
be able to do that for her child.
Yeah.
And that's, that's what makes it the second positive thing, which like I said, it's not
(42:53):
quite as obvious as the first one, but.
No, and I fully agree because I mean, like, you know, me for a long time and if I get
something, I feel bad about it because what if other, what if I got it because other people
didn't get it?
Right.
What if I get people reading my articles, but that means that other people don't get
(43:15):
the reads that would have been that I did get, like I stole reads, I stole luck and
stuff like that, like, I understand.
Oh my God, you put it that way every time I go on a medium, I'm like, I can only read
so many people.
I wonder how many people I don't even get to read because I didn't have the time or
they didn't show up in the algorithm at the exact moment that I logged on.
(43:37):
It's all random.
Right.
And I mean, money in a certain regard now is just kind of this like made up thing to
a certain extent, you know?
So like, there's no, there's no fairness.
There's a bunch of people that will shout about how things are not fair.
Right?
Yeah.
I don't like the idea of things being deserved and undeserved.
(43:58):
Right.
Things just happen or they don't happen.
We don't have to have any sort of idea of it being deserved or fair because life isn't
fair.
Right.
Exactly.
And so when someone has the ability to help someone and then they choose to help that
person, that's always beautiful every time.
(44:21):
I don't care about where else the resources could have gone that could help that could
have helped out.
I understand it and I get it.
And there's so many people that are struggling financially right now that if they heard my
words, they'd be like, I would be able to help my kids with way more that they're going
through than just this one thing that for that rehab.
(44:41):
And it's like, I get how you feel and your feeling is a testament of your love for your
kids.
That's amazing.
That's awesome.
That's as beautiful.
See I look at it slightly.
Maybe it's not different, but it feels slightly differently where I look at her and I'm like,
okay, you're right.
I am envious of you because you obviously have more money than we do, but you are not
(45:03):
a billionaire.
You don't have billions of dollars just sitting around doing nothing for anyone.
You had money that maybe it was sitting around doing nothing for a little while, but it wasn't
billions of dollars and then you needed it.
I think that that puts us on the same level playing field.
It's just you're a little bit, you know, on the upper part of the ramp.
(45:29):
The people that I don't agree with that they're the ones that have hoarded wealth that have
millions or billions of dollars they're doing absolutely nothing with.
And then they basically tell poor people that it's their fault that they can't do what they
need to do in life.
If there was a billionaire out there that like genuinely looked like they were happy
(45:55):
to give their money, let me see how if I can say this correctly.
This person that paid for her son's rehab was like felt so much about it.
It mattered so much to her that she was doing it.
And I've never seen a billionaire give anything and feel that same amount.
(46:17):
Do you know what I mean?
It always looks like a plastic smile posted on something for fucking, you know, a photo
op.
Well, because I believe that that kind of rich status, that's a sickness.
They are mentally ill.
They can't feel that for other people.
That part of them not being able to feel that for other people is why they're hoarding
(46:39):
the wealth because they don't have the relationships that would fill the void.
And so they just fill it with money.
Yeah, absolutely.
If I had the opportunity to say something to the author of this article, I would definitely
say that I hope that she doesn't feel that shame for too long.
(47:01):
That I don't think that that I'd hope that she feels proud of her ability to be there
for her son.
I know.
I know that there's comments.
I might I might get there.
I don't know.
We'll see.
We'll see.
I just I just can't I can't say.
(47:24):
I just ride my perception as it bucks along this interesting life just like everyone else.
Did you notice Sturges earlier comment?
Mortal would literally get all the reads he doesn't deserve.
I'm just ignoring it sort of.
Yeah.
(47:44):
And also mortal you deserve reads and write more.
Come on.
Yeah, I know.
I've had a couple of ideas for articles, but I've been so busy I haven't even written
down those ideas and most of them disappeared by now.
On a on a tangential note to that, you may want to consider checking out the koala quill
that Philip is working with.
(48:06):
I found very, very interesting and helpful.
I wrote a little fiction story, but like I didn't finish it thinking about just posting
it anyway.
It works out like it's pretty good.
It's not the same as it used to be, but it still does really well at giving you a structure
for a story to just kind of jog the creative juices.
(48:31):
Just to play with thoughts and words within a structure.
Yeah, I would probably thrive with that if I can find time to dedicate to it.
But I also, you know, do waste time here and there.
That's true.
I just think you might have a little bit of time coming up since your job switch is currently
in the process.
(48:52):
So like maybe in a week or two, you might have a minute to do something you want to
do.
Well, I want to do.
Historically now for the last few years, I've taken the week of my birth off.
And so I will not be doing that this year because my new job starts, you know, around
my birthday.
So I'm going to have to wait like a month to take off a week for my birth.
(49:12):
But I do still plan to take a week off for my birth at some point.
So that will definitely give me more time to do stuff.
And maybe I'll write some stuff in that time.
We'll see.
We'll see.
Yes, that was my birth anniversary is coming up soon.
That was all of the stories that we had.
(49:35):
They were really good stories.
I did really enjoy this week's stories, but I think I've enjoyed all the week's stories
so far.
I've been trying to be more selective about what I read, what I pick out as, you know,
acceptable stories.
I don't I feel a little bit bad about it because on one hand, like Ben was talking about earlier
(49:57):
today in the writing group where it feels a little like, I don't know, you just feel
bad kind of condemning people who aren't stronger writers.
But at the same time, I want the people that I'm helping to shine, I want them to be shining.
Yeah, absolutely.
(50:18):
So yeah, that goes right into what we were talking about, about, you know, life not being
fair, right?
It's like things happen and they happen to benefit some people.
And instead of saying they don't happen to benefit others.
And if we instead of saying how terrible that all these people didn't get that benefit,
(50:42):
why can't we celebrate the person that did get that benefit?
Yes, I understand when favoritism comes into play, that's shitty and billionaires suck
ass.
I agree with both of those things.
So it's not a hundred perfect statement.
But you know, when when I got boosted, even though I was, was I boosted?
Did I actually get boosted?
I can't remember anymore.
(51:02):
Yeah.
So when I got boosted on that article, I was.
Did you get boosted?
Maybe I didn't get boosted.
I don't know.
I don't remember you getting boosted.
You would have gotten an email that said you were boosted.
I definitely didn't get boosted, but I got traction on something.
I don't know.
Maybe I'm making shit up anyway.
I what I meant was that I felt like I got like traffic on something from somewhere and
(51:29):
it didn't matter that like, no, I think I'm just thinking about Sturge pushing me to write
and then I wrote.
That's all I'm really thinking about.
And I appreciated Sturge for that little push.
It was nice, but that doesn't actually apply to what we're talking about.
I'm losing the thread.
I think we need to.
I think that's a thing we're getting close to maybe the end of the episode, aren't we?
(51:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've already switched over to the monster alley screen.
So oh, is that supposed to be like an indicator that maybe we're about ready for the wrap
up?
It's, you know, it's an indicator.
It doesn't have to mean anything necessarily.
I didn't mean to say that you like were taking too long or anything.
Right on.
(52:14):
I hear you Sturge.
I appreciate that.
But it's not necessary.
I don't know.
I don't know that I would.
I appreciate it.
I appreciate it a lot.
Well thanks.
Taminites and mortal heads and hidden egg goers and listeners.
I was going to call everybody egg heads.
Why does everybody feel like they're called an egghead?
(52:37):
Yeah we're thinking about calling listeners egg heads.
Yeah.
Because it's good to have a nickname for your for your fans, your listeners, whatever.
Right.
Eternal bottom.
Well, I don't know that everybody would want to be eternally bottom.
Wow.
(52:58):
That's hilarious.
Okay.
So egg man's.
Yeah.
Oh is that who that is?
I'm like how is that relevant Ben?
That's Dr. Robotnik but later changed to Eggman or Dr. Eggman and later Sonics.
But I will know him as Robotnik for my whole life.
Anyway egg heads.
(53:18):
We're going to call you that until someone tells us to stop.
Or comes up with something better.
Right.
Thank you for coming along on this trip.
I hope you've enjoyed listening to us talk about these.
Go check out those articles.
Go check out themonsteralley.com.
I'm eternally mortal and I hope you find smiles this day.
(53:39):
And I am the accidental monster.
You can find us both on medium.com.
You can also like mortal said you could go to themonsteralley.com.
It's T H E M O N S T E R A L E E.
I'm sorry.
A L L E Y.
Dot com.
I don't know why I wanted to put two E's in it but whatever.
(53:59):
It happens.
And follow yourself always.
Hi, I'm Tam.
(00:01):
And I'm Eternally Mortal.
And this is the Hidden Egg Podcast where we talk about vulnerability.
And stuff.
And things.
And things, exactly.
Welcome back to the Hidden Egg Podcast, episode four of season four, where we go over medium
articles and talk about the vulnerability within and the vulnerability within ourselves
(00:24):
as we read them.
Did that sum it up pretty well?
Yeah, that sounded really professional.
I really liked that.
Good job.
Heck yeah.
I've been like neck deep in corporate for weeks now.
I also-
Driving me mad.
Before we get too far in, I want to apologize for the fact that my throat has been real
rough the past few days.
(00:46):
So I might not talk as much and I might be clearing my throat a lot more.
It's a thing.
It's a process.
Yeah.
And I'm going to try and take a little bit more-
Or think it.
I'm going to try and take a little bit more of the lead on the conversations today, but
I'm probably going to get lost and meander.
And hopefully you can bop me if I go a little too-
(01:09):
Yeah, so you are able to see my screen too, right?
I am, yeah.
In the live thing.
Okay.
So you'll know what the article is, but you have your own articles too.
I do have the articles up as well.
I have yours in kind of a little bitty screen so that I can still see the audience, but
(01:29):
I see what's up and so I can look at the articles when I know what's up there.
Gotcha.
Okay.
Well, the first one, if you don't mind us moving forward.
Yeah.
I'll go ahead and bring it up when you're ready.
The first article we were going to just quickly give a little shout out for was written by
our very own Sturge currently in our chat called Why I Abstained from the Internet on
(01:55):
April 1st this year, a subtext I am not a huge fan of practical jokes these days so
I might've been trying to protect myself.
By the Sturge on Medium.
Yeah.
Yeah, I really liked your April Fool story in my mouth.
Apparently it doesn't work.
Do not take that out of context.
Oh, they will, but that's okay.
(02:17):
Yeah, I really liked how vulnerable it was and we definitely agree with your consensus
here.
April Fool's isn't all that funny.
There's enough misinformation.
We don't need a holiday with it.
Also pranks are like really shitty.
There's certain things that I'm okay with, but it's only when both people are, or all
(02:38):
people I should say, are consenting and in on it and people don't like those quote unquote
pranks sometimes because they feel staged.
Have you heard of those positive pranks?
There's a guy that does catcalling, but it's like an affirmational catcalling.
So like-
I think I've seen some shorts on that.
He'll watch some women go by and he'll have like this megaphone and be like, I bet you
(02:59):
do your taxes on time.
Or stuff that's just basic compliments that-
Aren't about the regular catcalling shit like boobs and butts.
I like pranks like that, but anything like most people, their idea of pranks are stupid.
Yeah.
And I'm not a fan, but I am a fan of Sturge's article here because it was very, very vulnerable
(03:25):
and personal.
It went through how Sturge interacted with pranks earlier in his life and the turnaround
that he went through and it was just, it was touching.
And so many moments.
You just see Ben's comments.
How dare you assume I pay my taxes on time.
(03:49):
Yeah.
There was a specific moment in the article that really hit me like, wow, I really feel
that that's the thing that I wrote.
You highlighted it.
Well, was it?
Because I don't see anything that I highlighted on this one.
You told me you were highlighting it when you were reading it.
Sometimes that might've been a different, we just looked at five articles.
(04:10):
Like it's possible.
There's one of the other ones too.
But yeah, it was really good.
I don't want to read the whole thing.
Go check it out.
Sturge wrote an amazing article about April Fool's Day and pranks in general.
Okay.
And then the other shout out article is by Lynn, L-I-N, who was published in the Thought
Thinkers, which Ben is the, Ben Ulanci is the, I think the owner.
(04:34):
Aren't you the owner of it?
I'm pretty sure.
But it's called, What If We're Not Really Alive?
Yeah, Ben is.
Okay.
And subtitle, An Innocent Game of Call of Duty Turned Into a Full Blown Existential
Crisis.
Yeah.
We liked this one, but it doesn't really fit the vulnerability vibe as much.
(04:55):
But it was still a really good done, well done article.
It was, and it was a very vulnerable moment for the author.
Absolutely.
I just totally experienced that sort of thing and like Tam and I have like at length four
years discussed like our treatment of video game characters and how it matters.
So many hours of conversation.
(05:17):
Right.
Absolutely.
And so yeah, it was, that's, I mean, it's hard to really like pick out individual bits
because like this just flows from one thing into a next, into what you would imagine an
existential crisis is, you know, like going through like beating on the building blocks
(05:39):
of what makes a sentient reality.
You know, I was actually really surprised that this one didn't get more attention.
Cause I mean, it's only got 301 claps and two replies or whatever.
And one of them's me.
(06:00):
So yeah, it was, it was really well done.
I strongly recommend anyone listening to go read it.
I'll put it in the, the places where I put things, put the links.
Do that.
That's the thing you should totally do.
But it was a really good article.
I enjoyed reading it.
It was my first introduction to Lynn's work.
(06:20):
So it was nice.
Yeah.
And then onto the first article that we will actually be talking about in depth.
And that one's yes.
Matthew Maniachi.
Yeah.
Matthew Maniachi wrote basic human rights are not an opinion.
I can and will end relationships over bigotry.
(06:43):
And talk, just talking about the article to start out with, like there's so many things
in here that very much the title does expressly state what you're going to be getting with
this article.
There's so many things in here that I wish I had the cojones to say out loud to people
because I do get very fired up about many forms of bigotry and the inherent like need
(07:11):
to follow in the footsteps of bigotry like infuriates me.
And Maniachi put so much work into like really drawing out exactly what it is that was irritating
about that and how it is like wrong and silly to just other people and make them make them
(07:31):
lesser than you in your mind.
Like there's it was it was pretty awesome as an article.
I really like it.
As I read it like I've reached both times because I read it twice.
Both times when I read it, I kept thinking to myself like I really just want to read
this out loud on the podcast.
I mean, we're like the whole thing.
(07:52):
Yeah, the whole thing.
Because like just saying the words, like they all have so much power.
He's got so much so many good points and the emotion behind every single word is like yes,
yes, yes, yes, through the whole thing.
And I wanted to put I know it kind of was a little awkward about this, Tam, when you
(08:15):
and I were talking about it.
But I want to I want to do mention that like we we actually like interacted with Matthew
Maniachi in the past in IRL.
I haven't spoken and revealed myself yet to to him through medium to let him know that
(08:35):
I'm me and from this past or anything.
I feel a little awkward about it, but it was a random find to find out that someone that
we knew from back in the day was writing on medium as well.
And Matthew Maniachi has written an article a day for a very long time, I think.
I don't know if he writes every single day.
I don't I don't think he actually keeps up that that hardcore with it.
(08:58):
But some days, you know, he's been he's been writing for years, apparently.
Yeah, I just thought that was really cool.
But yeah, I mean, do you want me to get more in depth into some of the bits of this article?
Because it was pretty.
Yeah, I mean, I was going to say, like, one of the things I liked most about this article
(09:22):
was the idea that like people will have this this argument about what was it?
Is it that he said that they'll argue that it's not tolerant and that that, you know,
that it's their opinion?
And he's like, no, this isn't an opinion.
Liking pineapple on pizza is an opinion.
(09:43):
However, when you've decided that somebody doesn't deserve to live, that's not an opinion.
That's a moral that's a moral stance.
Yeah, absolutely.
And he calls so many things out specifically.
He calls out, you know, treating women as lesser than men.
He calls out the bigotry of racism, the sexism, gender isms, you know, like.
(10:11):
He even goes into immigration.
Yeah, absolutely.
And how people call immigrants illegals as if a person could be exempt from basic human
rights just because they're quote unquote illegal.
Right.
But you know, nobody talks about how if you go, you know, sixty five in a 50 zone, you're
(10:33):
technically illegal, too.
Do you no longer deserve human rights?
Sure.
Absolutely.
Food for thought.
There was something I was going to say, but you kind of jogged it out of my brain.
That's OK.
Yeah.
But yeah, no one deserves human rights.
(10:57):
Well, at least it's at least you're consistent, you know, at that point, it's not a moral
stance against certain people.
It's just a moral stance against everybody.
Right.
Well, until we get, you know, different aliens and stuff like that.
And then it's a specific group of people again.
You know, human rights.
You don't know.
(11:18):
He could decide that nobody does like even not even the aliens deserve human rights.
They are exclusionary.
They don't.
Nobody deserves them.
I think it's really interesting that like I think we've I think as a society, we've
pretty much decided on what it means.
Basic human rights, you know, like we're basically saying that every human deserves the rights
(11:38):
to what they need to survive.
Right.
Food, shelter, clothing or whatever.
Is clothing necessary anymore?
Yes, but it's deeper than that.
Human rights are also about like like respect and dignity.
Well, when when you're like having a war, there are certain methods of torture that
(11:59):
when they come out, like we all as a group kind of decide, you know what, that's inhumane.
And yeah, you shouldn't do that even even in wars.
Does it stop people?
I don't know.
No.
Shelter for profit.
Yeah, you're right.
(12:20):
Surge Americans do still think that shelter for profit is a business model, which is sad.
I don't we have so much space over here.
Like I don't understand why people get upset about tiny homes for poor homeless people.
Do you hear about that?
There's I don't remember where it was at, but there's some neighborhood of tiny homes,
(12:45):
you know, like they're the size of a freaking truck at best.
I want one.
And there's like this charity that they build the tiny homes and then they go around and
they get homeless people.
And it's like a whole community and the homeless people, they come in and they get support.
There's a counselor, a social worker that comes to the neighborhood to help them get
(13:07):
themselves acclimated to a community experience.
They help them figure out where they would want to work.
They get them into a job.
Hopefully a lot of them actually move out and become members of society again.
And it has become this whole like rehabilitation place for homeless people.
(13:29):
Good.
Something that we very badly needed.
I mean, if you want to talk about people that were dehumanized for a long time, it was definitely
homeless people.
And yet most places are spending millions, if not billions of dollars on architecture
to keep homeless people from sleeping there.
(13:50):
Right.
It's such bullshit.
And like that was part of the fact, the part of this article that I was really like resonating
with is that Maniachi made a very clear delineation between, you know, liberal and conservative,
like liberals care for the well-being of all peoples, regardless of anything.
And conservatives seem to want to be able to say we as conservative people are better
(14:16):
than other people.
Like I've talked to layman conservatives just out in the wild, just people that are, you
know, casual vote Trump voters.
Vote Trumpers?
What the fuck?
Anyway, they do Trump.
I know, right.
And they just genuinely think that there's just going to always be groups of people that
(14:38):
are worse than them.
And they include me as part of them in those conversations, which honestly I'm not super
okay with, but I don't know how to.
I don't know that we've, I know that you've brought that up before and we've talked about
this before, but this time you saying it, something clicked in my brain and it really
sounds to me a lot like my experiences growing up in an abusive household where like, cause
(15:03):
you know, you know how I have difficulties with comparisons and with somebody needing
to be at fault and blame.
All of those things have this sort of hierarchy feel to it where somebody is on top and somebody
is on bottom.
And I don't mean that in the dirty way, but I feel like that is a product of an abusive
(15:27):
environment.
And if you have this idea that somebody has to be on top and somebody has to be on bottom,
that two people can't be equal, then it's a really big indicator that you may be in
or have been in a highly abusive environment.
Right.
Yeah, absolutely.
(15:47):
And it's so very common around first world experience because I don't have any other
experience in that.
But like all the people that I know were just like super into competition in a certain way
and a lot of it, when I got to know those people and understand their motivations for
what they decided to do was because they wanted to feel better than other people.
(16:10):
And that was when I started throwing video games.
I stopped really trying to beat people as a child in video games.
I stopped trying to do the game the best that I could and instead tried to make it to where
the other person didn't realize that I let them win or didn't realize that I wasn't
trying very hard.
Some of them could have just beat me always.
I'm not trying to say I'm like God at video games, though, you know, anyway, I wouldn't
(16:34):
recommend anybody actually doing that for other people because it's been really damaging
for you.
However, I will say that your ability to do that, to just be basically just be the bottom
every time to be the one low man on the totem pole in every argument, in every circumstance,
(16:56):
that was what I seemed to need in order to see the disparity.
I didn't realize that it was abuse until you were so consistently anti argument, like you
didn't want you never you never fought to be the one on top.
(17:17):
And that was something that was really new to me.
I never experienced that before.
I know Sturge laughing too.
I'm the perpetual bottom.
How can I not laugh anyway?
So I don't know.
I'm sure there's a healthy way of doing it.
So I don't want people to go out there and just think that they just need to be railroaded.
(17:39):
And that's what fixes all the abusers, because I don't think that that's a good idea either.
But I do think there's some element of no longer like participating, just don't participate
in this whole better or worse thing.
And when they say, well, I deserve this, you say, yes, you do deserve this.
(18:00):
You don't have to fight them about it.
It's the only time that you have to really insert anything is when they say, well, those
people don't deserve, but yes, they do.
They deserve this.
Well, but I deserve.
Yes, you do.
Like, I don't know.
It's a possible direction that could be taken.
Yeah, definitely.
(18:21):
I wanted to say, I'm kind of going a little bit backwards, but I'm coming around to agreeing
with what you just said.
That like my experience growing up was what led me to the decision, more or less, to let
that happen.
Like middle school, more or less, the traumatic parts of middle school to where I really felt
(18:43):
like I was the most alone that I've ever felt and hated really pushed me to the point where
I was like, this is what it seems like needs to happen to be able to just be ourselves.
If someone feels like they've already won, then they just are who they are.
(19:09):
And that leads to some people towards abuse because once they feel like they've won, they
might try and just, you know, like play with the power that they have over you.
And I've certainly experienced that.
But it was just so much nicer to be able to find out who people are, what they're into,
what their passions are.
(19:30):
Can I ask you a tangential question?
Sure.
So you have put yourself aside for probably hundreds of people in favor of letting them
be right, letting them talk about themselves, etc.
I know that you and I have talked about this in private how few people actually come back
(19:52):
around to do that in exchange with you or even think about you as your own separate
person.
I don't expect you to do what they're doing and fight to be heard instead of actually
trying to listen to you.
So my question is, what would you say the ratio is like out of every hundred people
(20:14):
that you bend over backwards to let them win and let them talk about whatever they want
to talk about?
How many of those people would you expect to at some point, maybe not even every time,
but at some point ask about you unprompted?
Two or three?
(20:39):
If I could look at the last hundred people that I've been like that at work with, you
know, because especially at work because it's already a stressful situation and people are
already just stressed.
I just let people win a lot there and there's a few people at work that will take that moment
(20:59):
after they feel after the conversation's ended and look at me and be like, huh, how are you
doing?
You know, with not the how's it going, but the really paying attention to something that's
a part of me, something that I'm into.
Like I almost named people, what an ass.
There's a person that I've like gushed once or twice about how much I like Rocket League
(21:24):
and you know, a couple months later they asked me if there's anything up with that.
I'm like, aw, damn, that's so cute.
You remembered.
Oh, we've lost Ben, but maybe he'll come back.
So and like one of the dudes that's kind of antagonistic to me in a certain regard, but
(21:49):
he thinks it's friendly, does pick up on things on aspects of who I am and ask me questions
about stuff.
In fact, from his perspective, he tries to help me and have a more healthy perspective.
I don't agree with him, but I appreciate the intent.
(22:09):
And that that two to three people in every hundred, do you think that that is like, do
you think that the possibility of that increases with how often you're around them or is it
just that's just the percentage?
It's definitely time with them.
(22:31):
Like if you were to be able to have a counter that only counted up when I'm hanging out
with them, the higher that count went, the more likely they would feel like they'd been
able to say everything that they wanted to say and be interested in what it is that I
might be into.
But there is a little bit of a variable in that, you know, if I don't see them for a
couple of weeks and a whole bunch of shit happens to them and those in that couple of
(22:54):
weeks, then unlikely.
Like I don't mean this negatively because I love you dearly, but it took a long time
in a certain regard for you.
Oh yeah.
But at the same time, it took years.
You're one of the only ones that has been able to, you're the only one that's been
able to get as deep with paying attention to who I am and how I think and what I care
(23:18):
about as no one has gotten nearly as deep as you.
There's other people that are still making the attempt currently and it delights me that
that's happening and I appreciate that greatly.
But I'm so guarded, it's so difficult to penetrate that outer skin to even find something to
be interested in.
(23:39):
Like it's just, I'm so good at being able to promote whatever it is that you're into
or passionate about that it takes a lot of effort to think, to ask.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Yeah.
The ratio that I had from like the first few years of our relationship, the ratio was bad.
(23:59):
It was like for every conversation, for every, maybe it was like for every hundred conversations
we had, there was one where I was actually asking about you.
All those other 99, I was just very self-focused.
Yeah real quick, because we're a little off topic.
(24:21):
I do want to say that like, you know, after an enormous amount of trauma, I think that
it takes a lot of time to be able to heal enough to be able to look outside again.
You know, if you get super duper sick and have to have like, you know, an appendix removed
or something even worse than that, it's going to be a long time before you're able to just
get up and walk around again.
(24:41):
Well, you know what I mean?
We did meander away from the point, but it does actually kind of segue into the next
article if you wanted to move on to that.
That's true.
That's true.
Go check out Matthew Maniachi's article.
All right, moving on.
We're going to talk now about, yeah, I see the screen.
The straw that broke the narcissist trauma bond.
Hi, Ethan.
(25:04):
Okay.
Hi, Ethan.
Okay.
But yeah, The Day I Knew I Was Gaslighting Myself was the subtitle there by Amelie or
Amelie D. Phoenix.
It reminds me of Monkey D. Luffy, but that's anime, sorry.
I've never heard of that anyway.
(25:25):
Yeah, so this was a story about the narcissist in her life.
And you know, my stance on narcissists and abusers is a little unpopular.
And I don't need to convince her to give him any chances whatsoever.
(25:51):
I want to put that out there.
But the segue is that no matter how narcissistic a person is, there is always the possibility
that they are just really traumatized and need to get help to work through that trauma.
(26:11):
And then they can be real people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's no average person, it is never their responsibility to make that happen for their
abuser or narcissist.
That is not at all what I'm saying.
I'm just putting it out there that the guy that she talks about in here, while admittedly
(26:36):
it reveals that he was probably pretty shitty to her.
It's possible if he went independently to go get some help, he could eventually fix
himself, basically.
Right.
I don't believe that there's anybody that's outside the realm of rehabilitation and change.
(26:58):
You'd be surprised.
People who have been abused tend to, well, you know, I used to talk about my abuser as
like, no, he was irredeemable.
There was no point.
Yep.
And for a time, I think most people who have been victims of abuse kind of almost need
(27:19):
that because they need to separate themselves from any sort of blame or responsibility for
that person because that person tends to have in their abuse attached responsibility of
their problems to the victim and what they've done.
So you have to pendulum a little bit to get away.
(27:41):
Also Ben's back, just so you know.
Welcome back, Ben.
So yeah, to talk a little bit more about the article, or am I cutting you off in the middle
of the thought?
Yeah, I want to talk more about the article.
So yeah, Amelie Phoenix's article was like a very specific story in an event that happened,
(28:05):
you know, like that showed her exactly what it was that she was dealing with.
And it is incredibly well written and very evocative.
You can just feel every moment of it, to be honest.
And it does definitely call out.
I guess we can reference who this person is to her, right?
(28:25):
That's okay.
I think so.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's her husband, probably ex-husband.
I have no idea how long ago this article was, but clearly a relationship that was ending
and a catastrophe, like massive catastrophe happened.
And this person, this husband was not capable in that moment of extending himself.
(28:51):
He wasn't even there.
Right.
That's kind of the thing.
You couldn't seem to connect with any part of it in a reasonable way.
Right.
And I remember reading it and like, you know, Tam, I think you, I talked to you about this
privately that I kind of like had a moment of relating to the feeling of being unable
(29:16):
to help someone you care about in a catastrophe, just being too overwhelmed for that sort of
thing.
But I don't know that I really need to apply that to this particular person because it
sounds like, based on what we've gotten from this one article, that like the reason why
they were unwilling to help out in that moment, that he was unwilling to help out in that
(29:38):
moment is because he was still butthurt about something really silly.
Well, I think that they had separated and he wasn't around or whatever.
But the thing is, the thing about abuse is that it looks so similar to things that aren't
abuse.
Yeah.
Like true abuse.
Well, I don't want to say true abuse because overt abuse is abuse, too.
(30:01):
But there's so many more covert abuses that are just as damaging.
And you don't notice them.
But she points out in her story, like, there's a difference.
Well, she doesn't point it out, I guess.
But there's a difference between being overwhelmed and then saying, if you need anything, let
me know.
(30:23):
And forgetting to ask about your children.
Yes, that is a very good point.
You know, anytime that you because we raised a child together, anytime that you were overwhelmed
and you were in that that like, just let me know if I need to help out with anything.
You tended to ask how they were doing or did they need any help specifically?
(30:46):
You would also sometimes ask me, like, do I need to talk to them specifically because
you're too overwhelmed?
Right.
So yeah, that when you're a parent, if you're a narcissist, it's pretty clear that you're
a narcissist because you're not like as a parent, you have to set some of your needs
(31:07):
aside to at least know what your child's needs are and determine if you can take care of
your needs or if their needs come first.
Right.
And that's really the key and that's really the litmus test, I'll say, of whether or
not this person has the ability to change because like that close of a bond of a real
(31:30):
bond there is potential because this is your child.
Like, can you come out of yourself enough to realize that you can potentially sacrifice
your time to make other people happy?
I don't want to say that that's the litmus test of whether they can change, but it is
definitely an indicator that if he were to start asking about his children, that would
(31:53):
be a flag that he has changed.
Yeah, that's better.
That's a better way of saying it.
I'm saying everything awkwardly today.
It's so funny.
It's okay.
I had a feeling that was what you meant, but it's not what you said.
So I had to clarify.
It's words.
You're a little low physically.
I'm a little low mentally, so, you know, by our powers combined, we'll somehow get there.
(32:16):
We're a whole person.
We are Voltron.
What?
Not Semetic, Semantic.
No, it's Semantic.
I know.
It's just I had that same moment.
It had, I'm pretty sure, the desired effect.
Sorry for people listening, Sturge just said mortals anti-semantic, but in text.
(32:45):
And so at first glance, it looks like anti-Semitic, which was the intended effect to shock us.
Anyway, I do want to come back to the article again because I was going to say that, like,
one of the things that I really enjoyed about this article is that she walks you through
(33:07):
that day, that memory, without bringing the trauma.
Like, I'm not going to say that it doesn't evoke potential for drama.
There probably should be a trigger warning or whatever, but it doesn't go into the really
(33:28):
traumatic stuff.
She's not like reliving a day when he beat her or like a day when they had a knockdown
argument about something and she was crying for hours or anything.
None of that.
It's just the moment of realization that like, oh, I need to leave.
(33:49):
This isn't working.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That moment of realization is exactly what I was going to talk about too.
You're absolutely right, like walking us through it to that moment is powerful.
That's what you said.
Isn't that what you said?
I don't know.
That's what I meant if it wasn't what I said.
Okay, perfect.
I love it when we're on the same page.
(34:12):
It's so amazing.
Just that being able to record a moment when you've spent years saying all of the stuff
that has happened to me is fine.
I know that deep down this is a good person that's trying their best and so I will just
continue to give.
But I can't take it anymore.
I will just continue to give and I will just continue to give and then that change moment
(34:36):
where you're like, you know what?
I think I've given enough.
Yeah.
I think it's time for me to just be without that and that's an amazing moment.
I'm so happy that this person was able to record that.
I selfishly want to, if she ever comes and listens to the podcast, I would love to hear
her.
I would love to have this writer for Abuse Road.
(34:58):
If anybody, anybody listening at all is wondering what kind of stories do we want on Abuse Road?
I love her story.
She's not saying that he can't change.
So like, I know that there might be a little bone to pick there because I do tend to say
like, don't target abusers as if they're, you know, they're just the way they are.
(35:23):
But the point here is that like she changed.
It doesn't like, he wasn't important to the story, if that makes sense.
Right.
He was present and you knew what sort of husband he was from her perspective through reading
it.
But it didn't unnecessarily flame him.
The article didn't like, it wasn't a hate piece or a vent piece or an anger piece.
(35:48):
Exactly.
Well, at least not directed at someone, you know, it was more directed at her realization
that that was amazing.
Right.
And like there, there may be the potential for her to be thinking that he's never going
to change.
And that could be correct, but like it's never actually stated in there.
So there's always the possibility that someone could come across this, read it and be like,
(36:11):
that's exactly what I'm going through and know that the narcissist in their life may
change and that's okay, but that's not their responsibility.
They don't have to be chained to that.
They don't have to have that hope.
Right.
Because sometimes hope is destructive.
I totally get that.
(36:33):
Right.
Yep.
Exactly.
Shall we move on to our final thing?
Sturge said something.
I don't know what he said, damn it, you two, Tam, about, but apparently you did something.
I don't know.
That's okay.
You do things all the time.
Usually they're good.
Oh, I'm being anti-semantic.
So maybe, maybe we can ask about this.
(36:57):
What do you mean by anti-semantic?
Maybe I'm not fully getting it or you can tell us, you can tell us later after the podcast
if you want to do that either way.
I'm interested though.
Yeah.
Okay.
Got it.
All right.
So the last one, this is our hopeful story and hear me out.
(37:17):
Okay.
So this story, I don't want to give away the answer, like the ending, but I don't.
If we're having this as our hopeful story, we're going to have to be a little, a little
spoiler about it to be honest, but, um, not completely, you know what I mean?
(37:41):
So this story by, this is the story I didn't want to share subtitle.
I'm told these are the stories we should be writing.
What's up?
Sterge says, I feel like you two are going against this writer's wishes.
Do you mean, uh, Ann Travaskis?
Cause that might be, I mean, we might, because technically she didn't put anything in the
(38:03):
title.
Oh, because the title says, this is the story I didn't want to share and we are sharing
it.
I get it.
But you don't think this author is going to hate us, right?
Cause if this author is going to hate us, I will stop immediately.
I mean, if she didn't want to share it, then maybe she shouldn't have shared it enough
to get 8.5 K collapse and 166 responses.
You know, this was a pretty, yeah, it was boosted.
(38:25):
She shared the shit out of it.
Okay.
Yeah, absolutely.
Serg did a really good job.
That's all that happened here.
Serg's comment did was, was fantastic at throwing me off.
No, no, no.
Go away Epic.
No, go away Epic.
Oh, good.
Okay.
So I have to start again.
I have to start again.
This is the story I didn't want to share.
I'm told these are the stories we should be writing by Annie Travaskis.
(38:48):
Apologies if I mispronounced.
And this was Annie.
I said Ann.
I feel so bad.
That's okay.
This is such, such just like a vulnerable and open piece to how a person truly feels.
Like it was, I don't know, it was, it really like was very, very clear to me how this person
(39:09):
felt and I thought it was delightful because like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of
God, I'm trying, I'm being too vague.
You have any thoughts?
I think we're just going to have to say it.
There's so few people that listen to our podcast right now.
I just, I don't think we need to dwell on the details.
I want people to go read this because it's amazing.
(39:31):
Annie Travaskis is a phenomenal author on, on medium.
Um, but I think we're just going to have to explain that like, this is a story about one
of her children had to go into rehab.
Right.
Yes.
That is basically the, the, the essence of the story.
(39:53):
Um, but it tells us so much more than just that.
Like she reveals herself as a mother.
Do you know what I mean?
She really like gets into what it feels like to be the mother of someone that is struggling
with alcoholism and goes into who this person is that is her child, which I think that there's
(40:15):
a lot of parents out there even that can't tell me who their children are.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
I, I, I know a lot of those.
Right.
Exactly.
And so like, you know, I, I feel the bond that comes through this article, just listening
to it.
And, um, you know, there's a lot of tragedy that's wrapped up in this.
(40:40):
This is a person that's dealing with alcoholism and the things that alcoholism can do to you.
It's a person that believed that they were a functioning alcoholic, uh, which is a term
I've heard a million times and I've heard people say it and continue to function to
this day.
And I've heard people that say it and then stop functioning.
However, however, cause you're really going hard into the tragedy of it.
(41:04):
Sorry.
The, the reason why this is a positive article for me is because, well, for two things, the,
the biggest one is that there was, there was a very strong message of hope at the end where
like he reached out to her and said, I need help.
And that's huge.
(41:25):
That's beautiful.
So, so beautiful and huge.
And I find that to be extraordinarily positive.
That is, that's what you need to hear before they go through the rehab and actually make
it, you know?
And then the other thing, which was less obvious, but, um, there was a point where she said
(41:46):
something about that.
She was, she felt ashamed of her ability to help pay for this expensive rehab for her,
for her child to go through.
Right.
And she, she even said specific, uh, explicitly how much it's going to cost her to send him
to the rehab that she thinks will be the best fit for him, the best beneficial benefit for
(42:07):
him.
And then she references how much, you know, like that could feed, how many families I
could feed or whatever.
And I just, I wanted to say that like, I find, I totally understand first and foremost where
that shame comes from.
Like I don't know where it comes from necessarily, but I understand it.
I've been there.
But, but on the other hand, I am so happy that she was able to, the fact that, that
(42:30):
what I, what I could do with that money is inconsequential.
When I look at her in her position, she had that money and I am very happy for her to
be able to do that for her child.
Yeah.
And that's, that's what makes it the second positive thing, which like I said, it's not
(42:53):
quite as obvious as the first one, but.
No, and I fully agree because I mean, like, you know, me for a long time and if I get
something, I feel bad about it because what if other, what if I got it because other people
didn't get it?
Right.
What if I get people reading my articles, but that means that other people don't get
(43:15):
the reads that would have been that I did get, like I stole reads, I stole luck and
stuff like that, like, I understand.
Oh my God, you put it that way every time I go on a medium, I'm like, I can only read
so many people.
I wonder how many people I don't even get to read because I didn't have the time or
they didn't show up in the algorithm at the exact moment that I logged on.
(43:37):
It's all random.
Right.
And I mean, money in a certain regard now is just kind of this like made up thing to
a certain extent, you know?
So like, there's no, there's no fairness.
There's a bunch of people that will shout about how things are not fair.
Right?
Yeah.
I don't like the idea of things being deserved and undeserved.
(43:58):
Right.
Things just happen or they don't happen.
We don't have to have any sort of idea of it being deserved or fair because life isn't
fair.
Right.
Exactly.
And so when someone has the ability to help someone and then they choose to help that
person, that's always beautiful every time.
(44:21):
I don't care about where else the resources could have gone that could help that could
have helped out.
I understand it and I get it.
And there's so many people that are struggling financially right now that if they heard my
words, they'd be like, I would be able to help my kids with way more that they're going
through than just this one thing that for that rehab.
(44:41):
And it's like, I get how you feel and your feeling is a testament of your love for your
kids.
That's amazing.
That's awesome.
That's as beautiful.
See I look at it slightly.
Maybe it's not different, but it feels slightly differently where I look at her and I'm like,
okay, you're right.
I am envious of you because you obviously have more money than we do, but you are not
(45:03):
a billionaire.
You don't have billions of dollars just sitting around doing nothing for anyone.
You had money that maybe it was sitting around doing nothing for a little while, but it wasn't
billions of dollars and then you needed it.
I think that that puts us on the same level playing field.
It's just you're a little bit, you know, on the upper part of the ramp.
(45:29):
The people that I don't agree with that they're the ones that have hoarded wealth that have
millions or billions of dollars they're doing absolutely nothing with.
And then they basically tell poor people that it's their fault that they can't do what they
need to do in life.
If there was a billionaire out there that like genuinely looked like they were happy
(45:55):
to give their money, let me see how if I can say this correctly.
This person that paid for her son's rehab was like felt so much about it.
It mattered so much to her that she was doing it.
And I've never seen a billionaire give anything and feel that same amount.
(46:17):
Do you know what I mean?
It always looks like a plastic smile posted on something for fucking, you know, a photo
op.
Well, because I believe that that kind of rich status, that's a sickness.
They are mentally ill.
They can't feel that for other people.
That part of them not being able to feel that for other people is why they're hoarding
(46:39):
the wealth because they don't have the relationships that would fill the void.
And so they just fill it with money.
Yeah, absolutely.
If I had the opportunity to say something to the author of this article, I would definitely
say that I hope that she doesn't feel that shame for too long.
(47:01):
That I don't think that that I'd hope that she feels proud of her ability to be there
for her son.
I know.
I know that there's comments.
I might I might get there.
I don't know.
We'll see.
We'll see.
I just I just can't I can't say.
(47:24):
I just ride my perception as it bucks along this interesting life just like everyone else.
Did you notice Sturges earlier comment?
Mortal would literally get all the reads he doesn't deserve.
I'm just ignoring it sort of.
Yeah.
(47:44):
And also mortal you deserve reads and write more.
Come on.
Yeah, I know.
I've had a couple of ideas for articles, but I've been so busy I haven't even written
down those ideas and most of them disappeared by now.
On a on a tangential note to that, you may want to consider checking out the koala quill
that Philip is working with.
(48:06):
I found very, very interesting and helpful.
I wrote a little fiction story, but like I didn't finish it thinking about just posting
it anyway.
It works out like it's pretty good.
It's not the same as it used to be, but it still does really well at giving you a structure
for a story to just kind of jog the creative juices.
(48:31):
Just to play with thoughts and words within a structure.
Yeah, I would probably thrive with that if I can find time to dedicate to it.
But I also, you know, do waste time here and there.
That's true.
I just think you might have a little bit of time coming up since your job switch is currently
in the process.
(48:52):
So like maybe in a week or two, you might have a minute to do something you want to
do.
Well, I want to do.
Historically now for the last few years, I've taken the week of my birth off.
And so I will not be doing that this year because my new job starts, you know, around
my birthday.
So I'm going to have to wait like a month to take off a week for my birth.
(49:12):
But I do still plan to take a week off for my birth at some point.
So that will definitely give me more time to do stuff.
And maybe I'll write some stuff in that time.
We'll see.
We'll see.
Yes, that was my birth anniversary is coming up soon.
That was all of the stories that we had.
(49:35):
They were really good stories.
I did really enjoy this week's stories, but I think I've enjoyed all the week's stories
so far.
I've been trying to be more selective about what I read, what I pick out as, you know,
acceptable stories.
I don't I feel a little bit bad about it because on one hand, like Ben was talking about earlier
(49:57):
today in the writing group where it feels a little like, I don't know, you just feel
bad kind of condemning people who aren't stronger writers.
But at the same time, I want the people that I'm helping to shine, I want them to be shining.
Yeah, absolutely.
(50:18):
So yeah, that goes right into what we were talking about, about, you know, life not being
fair, right?
It's like things happen and they happen to benefit some people.
And instead of saying they don't happen to benefit others.
And if we instead of saying how terrible that all these people didn't get that benefit,
(50:42):
why can't we celebrate the person that did get that benefit?
Yes, I understand when favoritism comes into play, that's shitty and billionaires suck
ass.
I agree with both of those things.
So it's not a hundred perfect statement.
But you know, when when I got boosted, even though I was, was I boosted?
Did I actually get boosted?
I can't remember anymore.
(51:02):
Yeah.
So when I got boosted on that article, I was.
Did you get boosted?
Maybe I didn't get boosted.
I don't know.
I don't remember you getting boosted.
You would have gotten an email that said you were boosted.
I definitely didn't get boosted, but I got traction on something.
I don't know.
Maybe I'm making shit up anyway.
I what I meant was that I felt like I got like traffic on something from somewhere and
(51:29):
it didn't matter that like, no, I think I'm just thinking about Sturge pushing me to write
and then I wrote.
That's all I'm really thinking about.
And I appreciated Sturge for that little push.
It was nice, but that doesn't actually apply to what we're talking about.
I'm losing the thread.
I think we need to.
I think that's a thing we're getting close to maybe the end of the episode, aren't we?
(51:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've already switched over to the monster alley screen.
So oh, is that supposed to be like an indicator that maybe we're about ready for the wrap
up?
It's, you know, it's an indicator.
It doesn't have to mean anything necessarily.
I didn't mean to say that you like were taking too long or anything.
Right on.
(52:14):
I hear you Sturge.
I appreciate that.
But it's not necessary.
I don't know.
I don't know that I would.
I appreciate it.
I appreciate it a lot.
Well thanks.
Taminites and mortal heads and hidden egg goers and listeners.
I was going to call everybody egg heads.
Why does everybody feel like they're called an egghead?
(52:37):
Yeah we're thinking about calling listeners egg heads.
Yeah.
Because it's good to have a nickname for your for your fans, your listeners, whatever.
Right.
Eternal bottom.
Well, I don't know that everybody would want to be eternally bottom.
Wow.
(52:58):
That's hilarious.
Okay.
So egg man's.
Yeah.
Oh is that who that is?
I'm like how is that relevant Ben?
That's Dr. Robotnik but later changed to Eggman or Dr. Eggman and later Sonics.
But I will know him as Robotnik for my whole life.
Anyway egg heads.
(53:18):
We're going to call you that until someone tells us to stop.
Or comes up with something better.
Right.
Thank you for coming along on this trip.
I hope you've enjoyed listening to us talk about these.
Go check out those articles.
Go check out themonsteralley.com.
I'm eternally mortal and I hope you find smiles this day.
(53:39):
And I am the accidental monster.
You can find us both on medium.com.
You can also like mortal said you could go to themonsteralley.com.
It's T H E M O N S T E R A L E E.
I'm sorry.
A L L E Y.
Dot com.
I don't know why I wanted to put two E's in it but whatever.
(53:59):
It happens.
And follow yourself always.
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