July 1, 2024 • 59 mins
For this episode, TAM and mort decided to explore a corner or two of the 'manosphere.' What started as a quest researching men's issues turned into a revelation that so much of what men are writing about has to do with the ideas of 'toxic masculinity' and how that affects men.
Our main attractions were:
- It’s Time to Stop Idolizing Extreme Men by Daniel Midson-Short
- Not All Masculinity is Toxic by Matthew Maniaci
- Can’t Make it as an Alpha Male? Here Are Some Options by Patrick Metzger
To watch the video version of this podcast, go to our Substack. For more about writing with vulnerability and information on articles discussed in the episodes, visit themonsteralley.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, I'm Tam.
(00:01):
And I'm Eternally Mortal.
And this is the Hidden Egg Podcast where we talk about vulnerability.
And stuff and things.
And articles on Medium.com.
And today we're doing season five, second episode, woo, super early.
Today's theme is going to be men's issues.
(00:23):
Yep, men's issues.
We did a women's issues not too long ago, and this is the month of Father's Day.
So let's talk about men.
You sound so thrilled about it.
It is a complex conversation for me because I have been friends with many groups of women
(00:48):
and a few groups of people from the LGBTQIA plus community.
And you know what the common situation that really troubles all of them?
Men.
Men.
Yeah.
Men.
And I have historically been considered a man.
And so like I've had some certain defensiveness and identity situations through this as well.
(01:14):
Just being a man and seeing what men are doing and being disappointed in men and seeing good
men that are miracles from my eyes and stuff like that.
And so it's a very nuanced place that I'm coming at it from.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But before we get into that, how about we do some shout outs?
Because we got a whole bunch of them.
(01:36):
Yeah, it is definitely the shout out time.
Where do you want to start with those shout outs?
So I was going to start with the one that you probably haven't read.
I don't know if you got a chance to read that one because I just found it today right before
we started recording.
It's the one by Ute Leppert called On a Whim.
It's a poem.
It's very short, but it was impactful.
(01:59):
And I don't want to get into it because it kind of spoils the thing.
But I mean, it's published in Catharsis Chronicles if that helps you like understand what the
poem's possible content is.
But I just really liked it.
It was it was nice.
Yeah.
Were you able to read it at all?
(02:20):
No, I did not.
I kind of forgot to read to even attempt to read it.
That's fair.
It was just published at the time of our recording.
It was just published like 13 hours ago.
So it's pretty new.
Go check it out.
Ute's had a lot of pieces that we've covered, so I'm sure it's delightful.
(02:41):
She's got some really good writing.
Yeah, she's super compassionate.
And this is another one that extends to people, her compassion with people, also with animals,
because there's always animals involved with her.
But the the compassion that she holds in her heart for like all living things is just amazing.
(03:04):
It's admirable.
I aspire to be more like Ute.
Not going to lie.
But anyway, moving on.
So we have two, they're technically going to be kind of lumped together here, but there
are definitely two different ones.
That's not.
I didn't mean to have that in there.
(03:26):
What's the one that I don't have?
Oh, I don't have Sturges.
I will send it to you.
Yeah, send me that one because that wasn't supposed to be a thing.
I haven't published that.
That's my my my letter.
So we did this letter to our crush in our writing group.
(03:48):
Yeah, as a part of our discord, we have a little writing group that we're doing.
And I two of our writing group members have published them and I wanted to kind of showcase
that.
I guess everybody that's watching the video gets a little bit of a reveal about what I'm
going to be publishing with mine.
(04:10):
But so we have Sturges, a letter to my ultimate crush, and then also Murphy's Law's letter
to my high school crush.
They are exactly what they sound like.
They are letters to their crush.
Yep.
Any kind of that was the thing that we did in the writing group.
(04:30):
And both as you as you saw from the little sneak peek that Tam accidentally did, Tans
is getting worked on.
And I kind of finished mine, although there could be some input that I changed some stuff
on.
But I haven't really decided to publish mine yet, though I am being told I should.
Yeah, I don't want to force you, but you should publish the things that you write.
(04:53):
It gives people the chance to get to know you.
But it was it was a good little fun exercise to to, you know, just to come up with something
to write to a person that we, you know, have those crush feelings on.
And we kind of all took it in.
I think we all four took it in different ways.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, Murphy made it into a poem.
(05:15):
Sturge actually, like, I don't know if it was.
Yeah, I guess it was an actual letter.
And his was to his ultimate crush, which is, you know, his partner.
And I took it in a different direction.
I think you and I took it in similar directions.
Well, yours was somebody from your past, right?
(05:38):
Excuse me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, that's true.
And you were you were talking to somebody that you.
Currently talk to.
I have crushes all the time.
And so I just sort of arbitrarily picked one of my current crushes and then decided to
write a letter to that person.
But I like name them and everything.
So I'm definitely going to change that part because I'm not putting names into a medium
(06:02):
article.
That's for sure.
Yeah, that's fair.
But yeah, we kind of all took a little bit of a different approach to it.
And I think it's an interesting little mix.
And it was a fun first exercise to do as a writing group.
Do you want to say anything with that writing group?
Oh, for anybody that wanted to be a part of the writing group, let me know on our Discord.
(06:27):
And we'll we'll get you in there.
It's by invite only.
So you can't just like show up in Discord and then be a part of the writing group right
now.
I'm still kind of building it.
But yeah, it's open for people that are interested in it.
And hit me up.
Yep, absolutely.
(06:47):
And check out Murphy's and Gerald's articles.
They're great.
So the last shout out actually kind of switches the tone to the men's issues again.
And this one, I really liked the article by Joe Gay.
Gay.
Yeah, could be gay.
Yeah.
Well, he said in in his bio or maybe it was the about that he used to go by Gway a lot
(07:13):
before he came out as being gay because I run non ironically for this episode.
He was not comfortable having his name make it sound like he was gay because, you know,
that's part of the male the male issues that we're going to be going over.
(07:35):
But his his article mistaken male musings on menopause, which I love the alliteration,
by the way.
I do too.
I absolutely adore it.
And I really I did kind of want this to be something that we've talked a little bit about,
but it didn't have the right feel for the main episode because it's tangentially men's
(07:57):
issues, but mostly women's.
But yeah, it's obviously talking about menopause.
And it's kind of and it is definitely kind of framed as what menopause is from a man's
perspective.
Yeah.
Or but it's a obviously a man that cares enough to ask because, you know, part of this whole
(08:17):
article is learning through the interactions with the women in his life what menopause
really means.
So yeah, and I got the like the basic feel that I got out of it was that we need to talk
about how it affects men.
And if we can talk about how it's affecting men, we can also tackle destigmatizing talking
(08:42):
about menopause in general because people just don't feel comfortable talking about
it.
And it does impact men.
So why don't we talk about it?
Yeah, absolutely.
And I like that perspective.
Yeah, I thought it was a good one, too.
So check it out from.
(09:03):
Yeah, Joe.
Joe Gay.
So I don't remember which one was supposed to be first.
The the.
Because I think that one leads into the other, you said.
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
I think I think that that's the best way to do it.
And so for me, I thought it was the it's time to stop idolizing extreme men was next.
(09:28):
OK.
I had forgotten where we put them, so I didn't have them in order.
So yeah, it was a little.
Yeah, we need to go further than that.
Yeah.
Do you want to?
Yeah, because I've since, you know, I kind of found this one.
It's called It's Time to Stop Idolizing Extreme Men.
It's by Daniel Midson Short.
(09:51):
And it's going to be like when I think of men's issues, this is the stuff that now is
what's in the forefront of my mind all the time.
The idolization of men that are performatively big and strong and tough and no one can tell
them what to do and they have all the money and the women and the power.
(10:12):
Those performative things are now corrupting an enormous amount of men.
Maybe I'm using too strong a word.
So you let me know.
Am I using too strong a word to your tan?
I don't know.
I don't think you are.
The sad thing is, I think it is an enormous amount of young men, usually young men.
I think corrupted is also the right word.
(10:32):
And some of them.
Some of them are being corrupted and they either go on to become what they think that
they can achieve as close to this idolized perspective as possible or they end up being
basically incels.
Right.
Exactly.
Because no one teaches them how to communicate with other people.
(10:55):
They just teach them how to be apples.
Because a lot of these big powerful men that aren't really real, all they show to the public
face is them not taking anyone's crap and standing up for themselves and not listening
to what other people have to say and not getting in trouble for breaking crimes and laws and
(11:19):
the rules of polite society.
And so they think that those are the things that lead you to success, to money, to women,
to power.
It's not.
No, no money.
They stole all those things before they got there.
Money is what leads you to be able to be an asshole without consequence.
And they give, they give this impression that being the asshole without consequence led
(11:42):
to the money, but that's not, it's, it's a reverse.
Exactly.
And technically it's not that they live without consequence.
It's just that in a lot of situations they can buy their way out of it.
Right.
And so we, long ago, especially in this country and probably around most of the world, we
decided that the word consequence could also mean a fine.
(12:05):
Yeah.
A little bit of money.
And the more money you have.
I just remember even Andrew Tate went to jail.
So, you know.
Yeah, he did.
But he's also gotten an enormous amount of money and he started Hustler You, which young
men paid $200, $2,000 a month for, for nothing, for little videos saying you can be powerful
(12:27):
if you do this or workout tips.
Like he stole a lot of money and he is a bit, ah, I'm grumbling about that.
Andrew Tate irritates me so much.
Yeah.
And it's, it's, it's a lot like the, uh, the health industry in general, the self-help
industry where they like just sell you a bunch of bullshit basically.
(12:52):
And they make a lot of money.
And so they're able to do all of this advertising and somehow manage to get the extreme people
on board.
And that makes it seem like if you're not on board, then you're the one with the problem.
And there's a whole bunch of young men that never really figured out how to interact with
(13:17):
people.
And the internet came about, you know, and became popular in the last couple of decades
or so.
And so they, they, they didn't interact much with people.
And so this information from these big powerful dudes seems totally plausible to them because
they just haven't had the experience of someone saying, Hey, could you talk to me nicer a
(13:41):
little bit?
Or could you take me into account more?
Or could we maybe share the conversation?
You know, like, I want to get back to the article.
Yeah.
So the article is actually like really old.
We don't usually talk about articles that are this old, but trying to find articles
(14:02):
about men was actually a lot more difficult than I expected.
Right.
We would have loved to have found some, you know, articles from people that were talking
about like, you know, the health issues that meant the heart conditions and stuff like
that, that men go through.
(14:22):
But it just seemed like everything we found was either one side or the other of toxic
masculinity question.
That might have been because of the searches that we did.
It may not be indicative of that not being something people are talking about.
It's hard to say.
We also were a little pressed for time.
It's true.
Yeah.
(14:42):
But again, I want to get back to this article itself.
Yeah, it's a little dated, but like it is, it is a pretty long and extensive look at
how these powerful men are trying to like tell men who and what to be and how we don't
need somebody to come in and tell young men who and what to be.
(15:02):
What we need is to stop idolizing these extreme men that are not realistic.
Andrew Tate's not going to be anybody's, you know, dad coach on the soccer team.
You're not going to find him trying to decide what loaf of bread he wants to buy in the
store.
That's not a real person.
(15:23):
Right.
And this article really shows that like, it's all a performance and it's all for the purposes
of making money.
And it's all for the, for some of them, it is a political thing to try and make it to
where men are the most powerful and dominant aspect of society again and forever again.
(15:47):
Right.
And people think that that's, I don't know, they put their, I want to say their best face
forward, but it's not, it's not their best face.
It's just this caricature of the alpha male that they've dreamed up.
And a lot of them do believe in it.
Like Andrew Tate totally believes in what he's saying, but he's not doing what he's
(16:10):
doing to help other people.
He's doing it because it makes him money and influence.
Yeah.
And it preys on the vulnerabilities of people who are already struggling and it teaches
them to do things that are going to cause them to struggle more.
Right.
And in an interview, you can totally see Andrew Tate being like, I do what I do to help young
(16:34):
men be more powerful and to get better on the work or workout and stuff like that.
But like, it's just a, it's just a performance.
He was once a kickboxer, now he's an actor.
That's it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I liked Daniel Midson short at the end kind of gives you a better idea of like what
(16:56):
you can actually do if you're, if you're in this position where you're idolizing these
people, he gives a suggestion of like, Hey, how about this instead?
Right.
I like that too.
A lot.
It kind of picks, like it kind of moves into the article that we have second.
I don't know if you wanted to move on to the second article or not, but yeah, we can move
(17:21):
on to the second article.
Absolutely.
And it does feed into there quite well.
But Daniel Midson shorts suggestion kind of, kind of blends into Matthew Maniachi's article
about not all masculinity is toxic, which was actually the very first article that I came
(17:42):
across.
I was like, this is going to be in the men's issues episode.
It has to be.
It's, it's, it was kind of, it's kind of the focal point.
Right.
Right.
And this also talks a lot about what I was talking about with toxic masculinity to begin
with, but Matthew Maniachi just has a really like relatable way of being able to, to put
(18:05):
this stuff down.
At least to me, I don't know if everybody gets that the way I do, but like it just,
it's the way I would say some of this stuff if I could find the right way to speak sometimes.
You know what I mean?
I feel like even he even seems relatable to me.
I mean, as a woman, I, the way he talks about the masculine experience, it, I identify with
(18:29):
what, with that being what I see on the outside.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I really liked that, that Matthew really went into trying to define what people mean
when they're saying toxic masculinity because, and he even says it in the article, there's
such a knee jerk response to hearing those two words together and just wanting to immediately
(18:52):
fight it.
Yeah.
And that's, that's something I wanted to talk about, but go ahead.
I'll wait until you're finished with your thought.
Just tried to actually put in a little bit of a, like a little bit of context about like
what it could mean and that it is a nuanced position and that not, there's not really
anybody out there that's actually saying every man is toxic or all masculinity is toxic.
(19:20):
And so, you know, any man responding to the two words with the fight, the fight response
is kind of damaging the cause.
Anyway, but yeah, that's basically what I was trying to say.
What were you, where were you going to go with it?
So, so there's that concept about, you know, men feeling the need to defend other men because
(19:42):
they, I don't know if it actually had a because part, but I wanted to offer my perspective
in there of I see myself doing this in situations where sometimes it's, it's, you know, oh,
when somebody's talking about how women do this thing and I identify with that being
(20:03):
similar to something that I have done and then I'll sometimes jump to their defense.
And I see that being a similarity where like, it's almost like they're not so much defending
that other person and what they did, but they're actually defending what the tiny overlap,
(20:26):
the similarities of things that those people themselves have done.
And they may not have gone as far as those other people, but like it's on a line that,
that you know, each individual man can, can sometimes see like, well, I went this far
(20:47):
and I get that going that far is technically bad, but also I see from my perspective because
I went this far, it can happen.
I could see that I could accidentally, you know, have gone a little further and maybe
that's what happened.
And so they, they kind of empathize with the mistake instead of being able to identify
(21:12):
that one, that was a mistake and to accept that they made a mistake that wasn't as bad
as that one, but they made a mistake and it's okay.
But like, you still have to admit that it was a mistake.
Right. And it's so important.
I think that's a part of the toxicity is not being able to admit mistakes.
Yeah. And understand that it's okay to make mistakes.
(21:36):
Right. Which obviously isn't just masculine, but it does seem to have a large prevalence
in this toxics, the toxic part of masculinity where we're like, the man is always right.
And even when it's wrong, I'm going to speak a little bit on that if that's okay.
(21:58):
Yeah. Yeah.
All I have is my own anecdotal experience.
Right. And the things that I've seen online from other people are people that talk to
me in life, but like the people that are very pro men, they still talk about how it is the
man's job to provide, to be the rock, to take care of others, to protect, to be the strength
(22:20):
to make the rules.
Well, I only brought up the ones I brought up because they avoid the things that are
too overpowering.
But I'm bringing all of those up to say that like that all alone kind of pushes this whole
idea that we as men, even though I don't super identify as a man, but men are not really
(22:41):
allowed to make mistakes.
Men are not allowed to fall short because we have quote unquote, so much riding on our
shoulders and they know, though they never talk about it, but I think an enormous amount
of men know that as soon as you doubt yourself, you lose all of your strength and power.
(23:03):
And so they've kind of been conditioned in a certain way to not be allowed to lose their
strength, lose their confidence or admit to mistakes.
And it is damaging everything because being able to admit to your mistakes makes everything
better.
It makes you feel better.
(23:24):
What's up?
I can't help but wonder if that perspective doesn't like it sounds like it literally comes
from patriarchy, where every man believes themselves to be the king of his own castle.
Right.
The burden of a leader is such that if you question yourself too heavily, then then the
(23:49):
people around you that you are somehow managing to keep in check by, you know, being the strong,
intimidating ruling force, they are going to notice that weakness and then take advantage
of you.
But that assumes that power has to be violent or aggressive.
(24:09):
That assumes that power is controlling others rather than guiding others or influencing others,
which is it sounds like the same thing, but it's a very different perspective.
Right.
Absolutely.
A very different perspective.
Because the only power that existed a thousand years ago was the power to make people fear
(24:31):
you.
Probably.
I mean, I'm generalizing.
There were kind people that helped.
Women have been doing, you know, have been influencing people through sex and their sexuality
and sexual impulses for thousands of years.
(24:54):
So I don't, obviously violence and intimidation were not the only powers.
They just were the only powers that men were allowed to really look into, I guess.
Yeah.
Uh huh.
It was totally normal in the 80s, as recently as the 80s, for two dudes to get into a fight
(25:18):
at the bar because one said something the other person didn't agree with.
And then one of them decided that since the disagreement happened, the only way to resolve
it was to show the other one that he was too powerful to disagree with.
And that's madness to me.
I mean, I still think that happens.
Probably.
(25:39):
But yeah, I mean, that's what they mean by when they talk about like knuckle knuckle
draggers.
Is that what they call them?
I think that might be, that might be a bad term.
I don't know.
I thought that that was like referencing the fact that some men are still kind of like
their mentality is stuck in the caveman mentality.
(26:01):
Yeah.
Where you're basically little better than an ape banging his chest, screaming at other
people and knocking them over the head.
I think there's apes that would be offended about anyway.
But yeah, absolutely.
Like there's still for some reason it's still even taught that like, you know, more physical
(26:24):
power means you get to make more decisions.
And I hate it.
I hate it so much.
Yeah.
I want to call out one line from Matthew Maniachi's article.
Do you mind if we do that?
No, go ahead.
Just as we all understand to some degree that hashtag not all men are creeps who assault
(26:47):
women, it's still true that enough men are creeps.
Yep.
I just had to call that out because, you know, there is a lot of people out there that are
like, not every man does that shit.
And it's like, like I started, I think it was, I think it was the episode I started
with saying that I've been in a bunch of groups of women that were friends of mine and also
(27:10):
LGBTQIA plus folks that were friends of mine.
And the underlying problem that a lot of them experienced all the time was men, you know?
Yeah.
And I've said, I've said that before, not in different words.
I've made the statement of, yeah, not all men, but enough men.
Right.
(27:30):
Enough that, that there, it's still a big problem.
And though it may not be enough for men to care, it is definitely enough for most, like
it's one of the issues that women don't really disagree with each other about.
Right.
Because it's too dangerous for women to disagree with each other about the solidarity.
(27:52):
I mean, there are outliers, obviously it's never a hundred percent of anything, but by
and above, this is one of those issues that if you ask a woman where they stand, it's
the bear in the woods, the man or a bear in the woods problem.
It is largely going to be, I would rather deal with the bear because the bear, I can
predict how I can get away from the bear, how I can avoid the bear.
(28:17):
Right.
But I can't predict how to avoid a man because if that man knows that I am on that island,
he will stop at nothing potentially to do whatever he wants.
Even if it's only one or two or 4% of the population of the men, of men that are the
types of men that are willing to like do anything to get a, to have power over a woman or an
(28:43):
LGBTQ folk person.
Like that's one out of 20, that's one out of 25 or one out of 50.
And how long do you think it takes people to meet 50 men?
Yeah, exactly.
There's a lot of them out there.
Right?
Exactly.
So, you know, if the statistics that come out that like one in two women have been sexually
(29:08):
assaulted by the age of what 16 or 18 or something like that.
I just made that one up.
I heard one in three.
They said one in six for a long time, but it's, it's switched about five years ago to
one in three, one in three women have been sexually assaulted.
Right.
It might be one in six that have been worked.
(29:29):
That might be what that statistic is now.
But the statistics change, you know, and I think that our, I think that our next generation
actually will be better at this and it'll start to go down over time.
But I think that, I think that a lot of the, I think that there's just a lot of bad information
that's being perpetuated intentionally over and over again.
And I feel bad.
(29:50):
I feel like I'm shitting on men during our men's issues.
Well this is, this is, that's the thing.
That's what the good men have to deal with.
The biggest issue that good men have are all of these men that give every man a bad name
because the good men know, yeah, it's not all men, but it's enough men.
(30:13):
And what am I like ghosts confided in me about this very issue.
He's like, what am I supposed to do if I fight against that?
Then I'm just going to sound like those men.
So I can't do that, but I can't do nothing because then I'm, you know, like, but that's
(30:34):
the only thing you can do.
So you just end up feeling very frustrated and powerless against this worldview.
And like the thing that he ends up having the biggest urge to do is to fight, like verbally
fight with other men in the hopes of changing their perspective.
(30:54):
Right.
Which I don't know if anybody out there has been trying to change anybody else's perspective,
but it's really freaking hard to change anyone's perspective.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
And so that's the best you got though.
That's what a lot of the, a lot of the good men that come out and write about this issue
and say, like, this is really happening.
(31:16):
We have a lot of men going down a really dark and lonely and angry road right now and people
leading them there on purpose, Pied Piper's playing those melodies in the name of money.
And so what, the only thing that we as good men can do is confront the people that are
being toxic.
And that only is us yelling at somebody or confronting someone verbally and trying to
(31:41):
change their minds.
And if we can't resort to violence for it because that's exactly what they're doing.
You know what I mean?
Well, let's be honest.
If we wanted to actually like fix this as a problem without having to fix it directly
as a problem, we could fix one issue that, that by and above would affect so many other
(32:01):
issues.
It's not even funny.
If we stopped worrying about money and found a way to just share everything, then leading
people down a path wouldn't be so important.
Interesting.
Because they wouldn't be able to do anything for money.
(32:23):
You're kind of rewriting the entire power structure that we have in our society.
But that's a huge issue that I'm not really sure has a solution.
Actually I came up with a solution.
I don't know that this will actually work.
It's just an idea I had.
Do you want to hear it?
Do you want to hear a silly idea I had?
Sure.
I came up with the idea that what we should be doing is we should be taking every single
(32:48):
adolescent that exists and shoving them all together on the same giant island away from
all other civilization with an enormous number of medical professionals, mental health professionals
and life coaches.
All of them very vetted to make sure that none of them are trying to take advantage.
(33:09):
And then we just kind of let everybody from the ages of 16 to 25 figure their shit out
with infinite amount of resources to help them out.
Why would they need an island for that?
Why do you need to isolate them away from other people for that?
Because that's the age period where they get a little weird with it and I don't want it
(33:32):
to hurt the kids and I don't want the old people to have to worry about it.
Okay, but couldn't we just and we're off on a tangent here, but couldn't we just increase
support for mental health services across the board for all ages and then like sort
of make a little bit of a mandatory health check in?
(33:56):
Wouldn't that have a similar impact over time?
Maybe I think it would have.
Start alienating an entire group and an entire generation of people.
I'm not an alienating an entire generation of people.
That's not what I'm doing at all.
I mean, you want to take the adolescents.
(34:16):
That's a generation.
Well, as soon as they get to be 25, they get to go back out into the real world and there
is preparation for months beforehand to help them reintegrate.
But wherever you start, that is going to be the start of a generation of people.
You understand that?
That's how generations work, right?
Time is fluid.
(34:37):
So, so you're, you're suggesting that we alienate an entire generation of people, fix them,
but the rest of the world is just screwed until they get out.
And then, and then what?
That 25, they somehow come back and fix everybody else.
I think giving mental health services for everybody and making mandatory mental health
(35:00):
checks being a thing.
Like I think that that goes a long way to, to that maybe making, you know, how you have
to get a pediatrician for a child.
Maybe there should be a mandatory mental health crew for children.
I understand what you're saying.
What you're saying is a great idea.
You've misrepresented what I was trying to say, but mine's a story idea that we can talk
(35:21):
about another time.
Hey, Sturgis here.
It's just for funsies.
Hey, Sturgis.
But that is, but there is a misrepresentation there, but you, what you're saying is correct
and we can move on.
Sorry about making the tangent happen.
No, that's all right.
It was a fun tangent.
And besides Sturgis here now.
Yeah.
Hello, Sturgis.
So at the end of the day, Matthew Maniachi talks about how masculinity could be like
(35:48):
in a very serious way and it sounds like a beautiful world from my perspective.
And I don't think it sounds like utopia.
I think it sounds very doable, very reasonable, still has plenty of room for, you know, things
to be imperfect without being catastrophic.
And then we have our last article who was, it was written by Patrick Metzger.
(36:15):
I hope I'm saying that right.
And it's called, can't make it as an alpha male.
Here are some options.
You know, in case, in case the reality of Matthew Maniachi's solution wasn't enough,
here are some that maybe are a bit more jovial.
(36:38):
This one was, this one was kind of a breath of fresh air.
Had some good, I mean, I'm going to call it out.
It had some good comedy to it, honestly.
But you've heard of alpha male, alpha male and sigma male and beta male, right?
Let's make some other ones for funsies because it'd be hilarious.
That's what this was and it was delightful.
(37:00):
Yeah.
What was the, what was the one that really got us?
It wasn't the Frodo, although the Frodo male was, was pretty funny too, which that's the
subtitle.
You can be a Frodo male.
I think it was the very last one.
But I think Burger King male might've been the one that we were really.
No, no, no.
What was the one above that?
The seagull.
(37:21):
The seagull, the seagull male.
I'm just like, he's just like pulling different animals out of, out of his butt, you know,
like you could just just be the snake male or be the, the sea slug male.
Right.
I mean, and I hope this isn't a call out because I think that this might've been what
happened and it was hilarious for me to envision it.
(37:44):
This dude was just sitting on his couch and he saw, you know, a magazine, two movies,
a bird outside and out the window, the Burger King down the street.
And I was like, those are my five male types.
Right.
And then just, and it just made shit up based on what those are.
And I thought it was hilarious.
I loved it.
(38:04):
It was fantastic.
After reading through, oh my God, after reading through the articles that were, that were
that we just could not justify mentioning to give them any sort of traction.
And that I felt a little bit bad that my read went to making them feel better about their
life choices.
(38:24):
This article was just, just chef's kiss.
So happy.
It was a good one.
I don't know that we have an enormous amount to really say about it.
Go check it out.
I don't want to ruin the surprise of it.
Yeah, I feel like we've already said more than we should have maybe about it, but like
(38:44):
go and read it.
It's got so many great, like it, there's some that sound like they're a little bit serious
and you're like, I don't know, but, but like you get, you get further down and you're like,
oh, this is just, those weren't serious.
That was supposed to be ridiculous.
Right.
And that goes to show how bad things are with this situation, that there are some things
(39:08):
that are meant to be ridiculous, but we at first were like, is, is he serious?
Is this right?
Because it could be because there are probably people out there that say that not ironically.
Yeah, there are, there are certainly people out there.
I mean, sigma male was a joke when it first came out, but then people started making a
(39:31):
real actual thing that they wanted to follow with it.
And then I think I've heard popularized Omicron male and I don't even know what that one is.
And it's like, what are we, what are we doing?
What are we doing guys?
Like just be a you male.
Who are you?
In a way, in a way it's heartening because you remember back in the nineties where there
(39:55):
were all these like different types of girls that you could be, you could be a Barbie girl
or you could be a lipstick lesbian girl.
You could be a Valley girl.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There were all these different girls and it was like this huge girl power movement that
like the world was open to you.
(40:16):
You could be a business woman.
You could like, and this is sort of the male pendulum of that.
Yeah.
I would love that if we could just like let guys just pretend to be their own action figure
of whatever they want to be, you know, you could go be the fire truck man and you can
(40:36):
go be the military man or whatever, you know, like, as long as not, as long as all those
men aren't toxic, preferably, preferably none of them.
Or like you could be a goth girl, right?
Whole identity based on a style.
Yeah.
So you know, I, in that respect, I don't mind there being options for men.
(41:03):
I just, I just mind that all of the options seem to follow a particular theme.
Right.
Exactly.
Goth girl, Sturgey.
Do we have the Sturge commenting?
Yeah.
Do you not see the comments?
No, my chat has three.
Yeah.
Goth girl Gerald is so much better.
I agree.
(41:26):
Goth girl Gerald.
Fantastic.
Oh, for some reason my chat wasn't advancing.
I didn't see Sturge say anything yet.
Oh, weird.
Yeah.
He's posted 11 different things.
I see that now.
Hound mail.
That's a good.
(41:47):
I'm the quarter pounder with cheese mail.
Yeah.
So not to, not to reveal everything that he puts in there.
Go read Patrick's article about having different options.
I think, I think maybe at some point somebody should write it not ironically, but until
then this is something that will be very funny.
(42:09):
And we all need a breath of fresh air sometimes.
You cannot just live in the issues of the world or the issues of your life.
You sometimes have to find smiles.
Yeah.
And it doesn't necessarily have to mean that, you know, that the struggle isn't worth talking
about.
We're not, we're not using this article to poo poo it away.
(42:30):
It's just sometimes you got to come up for some fresh air and, and focus on something
else for a little bit because oh my God, it's this, this episode was very overwhelming,
as overwhelming as the women's issue was or the, the grief episode was like this one was,
it just felt like, you know, that feeling of like a wave right above you, but like it's
(42:56):
a, it's a whole else like tsunami wave and it's just about to crash on top of you.
Like that's what this episode felt like.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was, it was a, it was a lot, I kind of had to go some internal places for this one,
but it's okay.
I'm, I'm actually, that's part of the reason why I like doing the podcast is that it does
(43:20):
help me rethink some things sometimes.
Yeah.
Be able to come up with new ways of thinking of things sometimes.
Getting vulnerable has that effect.
And when we talk, you and I, we do tend to get pretty vulnerable.
Yeah.
Yeah, we do.
So, yeah, check out the articles that we brought to you today.
(43:42):
Patrick Metzger's is hilarious.
Maniachis and Maniachis has hope to it.
Yeah.
I think Mids and Shorts article really targets a specific issue and still has a little bit
of hope.
It does have some hope to it.
So, so like, it's not, there's, there's light at the end of the tunnel.
I think it's just that we know that light, it's not ours to reach.
(44:08):
Yeah.
We don't get control over when we reach it.
It's, it's there for when we can figure out a way to make it, make that light more appealing
to the vulnerable young males of today so that maybe tomorrow we can all stand in the
(44:28):
light and be out of this fucking tunnel.
Wouldn't that be nice?
That would be nice.
Something to hope for.
And then maybe that one in three number might, might start to change in a good direction.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, Tam, what do you think?
(44:50):
Did we do an episode?
I think we did an episode.
I think this was an episode.
Yeah.
I think we did a pretty good episode.
I think so too, even though Sturge was only here for the end of it.
I want to thank Sturge for being a part of the live recording.
Absolutely.
Thank you, buddy, for showing up.
And you, dear listener, can be a part of the live action by joining our Discord through
(45:15):
the MonsterAlly.com, which also has links to our articles, Spotify and Substack.
I want to thank you all for hanging out and listening to us today.
I'm internally mortal and I hope you find smiles this day.
I'm the Accidental Monster and you can find us on Medium.com or through the MonsterAlly.com,
which is T-H-E-M-O-N-S-T-E-R-A-L-L-E-Y.com.
(45:39):
And remember to follow yourself always.
Boop.
Woot.
I have to pee really bad.
Do you mind?
Yeah, go run.
Okay.
I shall return.
Sturge never knows where he is.
Never.
Everything is the opposite of what you think it is, buddy.
I'm so sorry to hear that.
(46:00):
Except not everything.
Everything you think about Mike is true.
That's probably for sure.
Uh.
Uh.
Uh.
I was afraid we weren't going to get to see you, buddy.
It'd be the Monday and all.
Uh, you'd have to ask.
But I bet.
(46:20):
Sure.
Probably.
Have you seen the anime Fruit's Basket?
Because that's pretty kind of a loaded phrase there for me.
Fruit Basket.
But it's a really good anime.
Really enjoyed it a lot.
Both versions, actually.
I can't remember.
(46:41):
Did you ever watch anime?
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Kyo and Toru.
Eh, that's alright.
Not everything is for everyone.
I just started watching the original Dragon Ball recently.
(47:03):
Like the original Dragon Ball.
Uh.
I gotta get through it.
It's like a cultural touchstone so I can really understand our culture.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
And you know what I saw more of in the first three or four episodes than I ever expected
to see?
(47:24):
Kid Goku's genitals.
It is not something that I expected or wanted, but the original Dragon Ball is way racier
than I expected.
And just straight up showing off things that should not be shown.
Yeah.
I don't think you have a gift for that.
Please don't have a gift for that.
(47:45):
I'll have to delete it if you have a gift for that, honestly.
What did I miss?
Nothing.
Anime talk.
I clearly missed something.
I was talking about how I started watching Dragon Ball recently.
The original Dragon Ball anime.
And in the first two or three episodes you see Child Goku's genitals.
(48:05):
Huh.
I mean, sure, it's just like three lines, but still, they're just there.
On the camera.
Yeah, well.
It's more racier than I expected.
Anime in Japan doesn't have to censor children's parts.
(48:25):
Yeah.
The big problem that I have is that they showed that to us and he looks like he's five.
And okay, whatever.
Especially decades ago, if you were out at your aunt's pool party and one of the kids
ran around without their swimsuit on, it'd be like, ho ho ho, nobody look.
(48:46):
You know, whatever.
And then the kid, the next episode was like, I'm 14.
And I'm like, that's not cool.
You're not supposed to do that.
You remember Photon?
I do remember Photon.
Oh, I miss Photon.
It was such a great show, but it was also so bad with that.
Because that little boy was naked so much, but he loved his big sister a little too much
(49:10):
with her giant titties.
Yeah.
He was like literally in love with her.
That was pretty much the premise and driving force of the movie or show.
I can't remember which part.
I don't know.
Yeah.
I mean, it's fine to love boobs.
It's not about the fact that he loved the boobs.
(49:32):
He was in love with his sister and was upset that she married and moved away.
Hey, Tam, how did I do on the little scripty thing, by the way?
You did pretty good.
Because I barely found it in time.
Barely.
Yeah, I did notice that, but it's okay.
(49:56):
Do you have it written down?
Because I have it physically written down so that I can just look at the paper.
No, I had to find it in our conversation.
Yeah, I had a feeling that was what happened.
Do you want me to handwrite it for you so that you can sticky it somewhere?
I'm going to literally make a new sticky note on my computer and put it on there.
(50:25):
We're going to make the sticky note.
This is such great after party content.
I actually think we did such a great job with the episode itself.
The after party and the pre-show might not... I don't know.
They might be a little lacking.
Well, the pre-show actually, we went a little bit into the men's issue stuff during the
(50:50):
pre-show.
There's some good stuff there.
Joe Dirt, what a classic movie.
I keep burping because I'm so hungry.
Yeah.
I hate it.
Yeah, well, we got another 10 or so minutes of post-show after party before we have to
(51:12):
call and then you can go eat.
Yes.
Gerald, we figured we started earlier than you could show up for, so partially on us.
We got a lot going on.
We're trying to release this week's episode and also Tam has an enormous amount of stuff
(51:34):
that she has to do for the episode we just recorded immediately.
Tam's got a lot to do tonight and I'm packing for my trip.
I've decided I'm not going to try to start editing tonight, so that takes a little bit
off of my plate.
Oh, good.
I do try to keep into the habit of doing things for the podcast right after we do the podcast,
(51:57):
but it's just not going to happen today.
Kind of glad you're taking the time for yourself.
Also, I think Ghost just got home.
Oh, yeah?
I think so.
I can't look, but I can't see.
Yes.
There is a vehicle.
(52:18):
Yes, there is a vehicle.
Focus on your critical self-care.
I love Schitt's Creek.
That was such a great show.
I never saw it.
You should.
That was really good.
(52:40):
Mortal was able to see above the counter.
What?
I don't know.
That's what Sturge said.
I don't get it.
So I don't know if he's going to come in through the front door or the back door.
Yeah, I understand.
I did message him, but you know how it can go.
(53:02):
I still don't get it.
Gerald.
Because you were looking out the window.
Oh, no, I was leaning.
I am short, but I was leaning to a side in my chair and didn't want to knock over stuff
in my room.
But I am short.
I always love when people have short jokes and then they're trying to explain it without
(53:23):
saying that being short is the joke, but it just doesn't hit.
And so then you're short.
That's the joke.
You're short.
Yeah, that's a good one.
It's a lot easier for people that have the Napoleon complex, you know, because they're
all angry about it constantly.
Like me?
Like everything has to do with their height.
(53:44):
Yeah.
I used to hate the fact that I was short.
You had that and you know, your offspring has that a little bit.
I'm all right with it now.
I don't like having to stand on top of a chair to get to the time short.
I'm five foot three.
I'm not miniature.
No, I'm not as short as Ghost's mom.
She's like under five foot.
(54:06):
I feel like a freaking monster around them.
I'm like, I'm so fat and I'm tall.
I'm like nothing like what you should be attracted to because all the women in Ghost's family
are tiny.
That's not necessarily how that works every time.
But I'm regular woman people sized.
(54:27):
So but do you feel like you're towering over them and feel bad about that sort of thing?
Does it feel weird?
You know, I don't I don't so much feel like I'm towering over them because we don't really
stand next to each other very often.
But I I'm much larger, like in a weight sense.
So I feel fat around them.
I feel like I feel like Miss Piggy.
(54:50):
Oh, I don't think you're fat.
But I understand you do.
That's OK.
Yeah, I feel fat.
I just I was a little self conscious about being short in my youth because all my cousins
are well over six foot.
Oh, yeah, that's true.
Because I'm adopted.
(55:11):
So I was always very short compared to everybody in my family.
But like I kind of didn't care.
Like I just took the I took the joking, the point, picking fun at me and calling me stack
and shrimp and all that other stuff all the time.
Like it didn't matter after a certain point.
(55:32):
I got so desensitized to it, it just didn't matter.
And so like when people think thanks, Ronald McDonald, it could be that you just shoved
it aside to where you stopped feeling the pain.
Maybe but for whatever reason, it doesn't really affect me.
And so now when people are trying to make the joke that I'm short, I usually don't get
(55:52):
it because I it just doesn't hit with me right away.
That's not what I turn to as a thing.
Oh, because you're not afraid of people pointing it out because it's been pointed out so much.
You're just like, yeah, it's just a given.
I'm short.
It's fine.
Right.
You just start with that.
I'm short by being like, I think just barely on the low side of average for an adult male.
(56:15):
Yeah, I don't really I don't I don't know that you're really that short.
Like what are you five seven?
Yeah.
I mean, I know it's not six foot, but I've do you remember the friend I used to have?
(56:36):
Well, it's the it's the post show.
I'm just going to name his first name.
Yeah, Nathan.
Yeah.
He was the same height as me.
He was like five foot four.
He was short.
He was real short.
So apparently they have different ages for the average height.
(57:00):
And for the young man, 20 to 39, it's five foot nine inches.
Really?
For 40 to 59, it's still five foot nine inches, but it's like a quarter of a centimeter shorter.
And then for 60 years and older, it's five foot eight.
So a good two and a half centimeters shorter.
(57:21):
So interesting.
So once we get if I don't shrink, which I probably will, by the time I'm like 80, I'll
be the average height.
You got to take real good care of your spine.
I already have degenerative.
I know.
So like lose lose some weight.
(57:43):
Do do some spine exercises to try to preserve your spine and maybe you'll be, you know,
the average around the average height when we're old.
Maybe and I'm the tallest Asian that doesn't have any Asian blood.
(58:08):
That doesn't make sense.
Well, Mr. Said that was a tall Asian.
Hey, I'm average.
Is that Malcolm in the middle?
Yeah, I think so.
Or is that boy meets world?
Oh, that might be boy meets world.
Yeah, that's the one with Topanga.
(58:28):
I didn't watch either one of them, so they look identical to me.
I watched some boy meets world and I had a huge crush on Topanga.
And what years were those?
90s?
Yeah, I don't know what I was doing, why I didn't watch any of these shows.
(58:55):
Everybody else was watching them.
But whatever time slot they had, I was apparently watching something else.
Yeah, it was 93 to 2000.
So it would have been through like middle school and high school for you.
And I think you were a little focused on IRL world.
No, if it was the early part of high school, then I was probably watching cartoons.
Hi, I'm Tam.
(00:01):
And I'm Eternally Mortal.
And this is the Hidden Egg Podcast where we talk about vulnerability.
And stuff and things.
And articles on Medium.com.
And today we're doing season five, second episode, woo, super early.
Today's theme is going to be men's issues.
(00:23):
Yep, men's issues.
We did a women's issues not too long ago, and this is the month of Father's Day.
So let's talk about men.
You sound so thrilled about it.
It is a complex conversation for me because I have been friends with many groups of women
(00:48):
and a few groups of people from the LGBTQIA plus community.
And you know what the common situation that really troubles all of them?
Men.
Men.
Yeah.
Men.
And I have historically been considered a man.
And so like I've had some certain defensiveness and identity situations through this as well.
(01:14):
Just being a man and seeing what men are doing and being disappointed in men and seeing good
men that are miracles from my eyes and stuff like that.
And so it's a very nuanced place that I'm coming at it from.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But before we get into that, how about we do some shout outs?
Because we got a whole bunch of them.
(01:36):
Yeah, it is definitely the shout out time.
Where do you want to start with those shout outs?
So I was going to start with the one that you probably haven't read.
I don't know if you got a chance to read that one because I just found it today right before
we started recording.
It's the one by Ute Leppert called On a Whim.
It's a poem.
It's very short, but it was impactful.
(01:59):
And I don't want to get into it because it kind of spoils the thing.
But I mean, it's published in Catharsis Chronicles if that helps you like understand what the
poem's possible content is.
But I just really liked it.
It was it was nice.
Yeah.
Were you able to read it at all?
(02:20):
No, I did not.
I kind of forgot to read to even attempt to read it.
That's fair.
It was just published at the time of our recording.
It was just published like 13 hours ago.
So it's pretty new.
Go check it out.
Ute's had a lot of pieces that we've covered, so I'm sure it's delightful.
(02:41):
She's got some really good writing.
Yeah, she's super compassionate.
And this is another one that extends to people, her compassion with people, also with animals,
because there's always animals involved with her.
But the the compassion that she holds in her heart for like all living things is just amazing.
(03:04):
It's admirable.
I aspire to be more like Ute.
Not going to lie.
But anyway, moving on.
So we have two, they're technically going to be kind of lumped together here, but there
are definitely two different ones.
That's not.
I didn't mean to have that in there.
(03:26):
What's the one that I don't have?
Oh, I don't have Sturges.
I will send it to you.
Yeah, send me that one because that wasn't supposed to be a thing.
I haven't published that.
That's my my my letter.
So we did this letter to our crush in our writing group.
(03:48):
Yeah, as a part of our discord, we have a little writing group that we're doing.
And I two of our writing group members have published them and I wanted to kind of showcase
that.
I guess everybody that's watching the video gets a little bit of a reveal about what I'm
going to be publishing with mine.
(04:10):
But so we have Sturges, a letter to my ultimate crush, and then also Murphy's Law's letter
to my high school crush.
They are exactly what they sound like.
They are letters to their crush.
Yep.
Any kind of that was the thing that we did in the writing group.
(04:30):
And both as you as you saw from the little sneak peek that Tam accidentally did, Tans
is getting worked on.
And I kind of finished mine, although there could be some input that I changed some stuff
on.
But I haven't really decided to publish mine yet, though I am being told I should.
Yeah, I don't want to force you, but you should publish the things that you write.
(04:53):
It gives people the chance to get to know you.
But it was it was a good little fun exercise to to, you know, just to come up with something
to write to a person that we, you know, have those crush feelings on.
And we kind of all took it in.
I think we all four took it in different ways.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, Murphy made it into a poem.
(05:15):
Sturge actually, like, I don't know if it was.
Yeah, I guess it was an actual letter.
And his was to his ultimate crush, which is, you know, his partner.
And I took it in a different direction.
I think you and I took it in similar directions.
Well, yours was somebody from your past, right?
(05:38):
Excuse me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, that's true.
And you were you were talking to somebody that you.
Currently talk to.
I have crushes all the time.
And so I just sort of arbitrarily picked one of my current crushes and then decided to
write a letter to that person.
But I like name them and everything.
So I'm definitely going to change that part because I'm not putting names into a medium
(06:02):
article.
That's for sure.
Yeah, that's fair.
But yeah, we kind of all took a little bit of a different approach to it.
And I think it's an interesting little mix.
And it was a fun first exercise to do as a writing group.
Do you want to say anything with that writing group?
Oh, for anybody that wanted to be a part of the writing group, let me know on our Discord.
(06:27):
And we'll we'll get you in there.
It's by invite only.
So you can't just like show up in Discord and then be a part of the writing group right
now.
I'm still kind of building it.
But yeah, it's open for people that are interested in it.
And hit me up.
Yep, absolutely.
(06:47):
And check out Murphy's and Gerald's articles.
They're great.
So the last shout out actually kind of switches the tone to the men's issues again.
And this one, I really liked the article by Joe Gay.
Gay.
Yeah, could be gay.
Yeah.
Well, he said in in his bio or maybe it was the about that he used to go by Gway a lot
(07:13):
before he came out as being gay because I run non ironically for this episode.
He was not comfortable having his name make it sound like he was gay because, you know,
that's part of the male the male issues that we're going to be going over.
(07:35):
But his his article mistaken male musings on menopause, which I love the alliteration,
by the way.
I do too.
I absolutely adore it.
And I really I did kind of want this to be something that we've talked a little bit about,
but it didn't have the right feel for the main episode because it's tangentially men's
(07:57):
issues, but mostly women's.
But yeah, it's obviously talking about menopause.
And it's kind of and it is definitely kind of framed as what menopause is from a man's
perspective.
Yeah.
Or but it's a obviously a man that cares enough to ask because, you know, part of this whole
(08:17):
article is learning through the interactions with the women in his life what menopause
really means.
So yeah, and I got the like the basic feel that I got out of it was that we need to talk
about how it affects men.
And if we can talk about how it's affecting men, we can also tackle destigmatizing talking
(08:42):
about menopause in general because people just don't feel comfortable talking about
it.
And it does impact men.
So why don't we talk about it?
Yeah, absolutely.
And I like that perspective.
Yeah, I thought it was a good one, too.
So check it out from.
(09:03):
Yeah, Joe.
Joe Gay.
So I don't remember which one was supposed to be first.
The the.
Because I think that one leads into the other, you said.
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
I think I think that that's the best way to do it.
And so for me, I thought it was the it's time to stop idolizing extreme men was next.
(09:28):
OK.
I had forgotten where we put them, so I didn't have them in order.
So yeah, it was a little.
Yeah, we need to go further than that.
Yeah.
Do you want to?
Yeah, because I've since, you know, I kind of found this one.
It's called It's Time to Stop Idolizing Extreme Men.
It's by Daniel Midson Short.
(09:51):
And it's going to be like when I think of men's issues, this is the stuff that now is
what's in the forefront of my mind all the time.
The idolization of men that are performatively big and strong and tough and no one can tell
them what to do and they have all the money and the women and the power.
(10:12):
Those performative things are now corrupting an enormous amount of men.
Maybe I'm using too strong a word.
So you let me know.
Am I using too strong a word to your tan?
I don't know.
I don't think you are.
The sad thing is, I think it is an enormous amount of young men, usually young men.
I think corrupted is also the right word.
(10:32):
And some of them.
Some of them are being corrupted and they either go on to become what they think that
they can achieve as close to this idolized perspective as possible or they end up being
basically incels.
Right.
Exactly.
Because no one teaches them how to communicate with other people.
(10:55):
They just teach them how to be apples.
Because a lot of these big powerful men that aren't really real, all they show to the public
face is them not taking anyone's crap and standing up for themselves and not listening
to what other people have to say and not getting in trouble for breaking crimes and laws and
(11:19):
the rules of polite society.
And so they think that those are the things that lead you to success, to money, to women,
to power.
It's not.
No, no money.
They stole all those things before they got there.
Money is what leads you to be able to be an asshole without consequence.
And they give, they give this impression that being the asshole without consequence led
(11:42):
to the money, but that's not, it's, it's a reverse.
Exactly.
And technically it's not that they live without consequence.
It's just that in a lot of situations they can buy their way out of it.
Right.
And so we, long ago, especially in this country and probably around most of the world, we
decided that the word consequence could also mean a fine.
(12:05):
Yeah.
A little bit of money.
And the more money you have.
I just remember even Andrew Tate went to jail.
So, you know.
Yeah, he did.
But he's also gotten an enormous amount of money and he started Hustler You, which young
men paid $200, $2,000 a month for, for nothing, for little videos saying you can be powerful
(12:27):
if you do this or workout tips.
Like he stole a lot of money and he is a bit, ah, I'm grumbling about that.
Andrew Tate irritates me so much.
Yeah.
And it's, it's, it's a lot like the, uh, the health industry in general, the self-help
industry where they like just sell you a bunch of bullshit basically.
(12:52):
And they make a lot of money.
And so they're able to do all of this advertising and somehow manage to get the extreme people
on board.
And that makes it seem like if you're not on board, then you're the one with the problem.
And there's a whole bunch of young men that never really figured out how to interact with
(13:17):
people.
And the internet came about, you know, and became popular in the last couple of decades
or so.
And so they, they, they didn't interact much with people.
And so this information from these big powerful dudes seems totally plausible to them because
they just haven't had the experience of someone saying, Hey, could you talk to me nicer a
(13:41):
little bit?
Or could you take me into account more?
Or could we maybe share the conversation?
You know, like, I want to get back to the article.
Yeah.
So the article is actually like really old.
We don't usually talk about articles that are this old, but trying to find articles
(14:02):
about men was actually a lot more difficult than I expected.
Right.
We would have loved to have found some, you know, articles from people that were talking
about like, you know, the health issues that meant the heart conditions and stuff like
that, that men go through.
(14:22):
But it just seemed like everything we found was either one side or the other of toxic
masculinity question.
That might have been because of the searches that we did.
It may not be indicative of that not being something people are talking about.
It's hard to say.
We also were a little pressed for time.
It's true.
Yeah.
(14:42):
But again, I want to get back to this article itself.
Yeah, it's a little dated, but like it is, it is a pretty long and extensive look at
how these powerful men are trying to like tell men who and what to be and how we don't
need somebody to come in and tell young men who and what to be.
(15:02):
What we need is to stop idolizing these extreme men that are not realistic.
Andrew Tate's not going to be anybody's, you know, dad coach on the soccer team.
You're not going to find him trying to decide what loaf of bread he wants to buy in the
store.
That's not a real person.
(15:23):
Right.
And this article really shows that like, it's all a performance and it's all for the purposes
of making money.
And it's all for the, for some of them, it is a political thing to try and make it to
where men are the most powerful and dominant aspect of society again and forever again.
(15:47):
Right.
And people think that that's, I don't know, they put their, I want to say their best face
forward, but it's not, it's not their best face.
It's just this caricature of the alpha male that they've dreamed up.
And a lot of them do believe in it.
Like Andrew Tate totally believes in what he's saying, but he's not doing what he's
(16:10):
doing to help other people.
He's doing it because it makes him money and influence.
Yeah.
And it preys on the vulnerabilities of people who are already struggling and it teaches
them to do things that are going to cause them to struggle more.
Right.
And in an interview, you can totally see Andrew Tate being like, I do what I do to help young
(16:34):
men be more powerful and to get better on the work or workout and stuff like that.
But like, it's just a, it's just a performance.
He was once a kickboxer, now he's an actor.
That's it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I liked Daniel Midson short at the end kind of gives you a better idea of like what
(16:56):
you can actually do if you're, if you're in this position where you're idolizing these
people, he gives a suggestion of like, Hey, how about this instead?
Right.
I like that too.
A lot.
It kind of picks, like it kind of moves into the article that we have second.
I don't know if you wanted to move on to the second article or not, but yeah, we can move
(17:21):
on to the second article.
Absolutely.
And it does feed into there quite well.
But Daniel Midson shorts suggestion kind of, kind of blends into Matthew Maniachi's article
about not all masculinity is toxic, which was actually the very first article that I came
(17:42):
across.
I was like, this is going to be in the men's issues episode.
It has to be.
It's, it's, it was kind of, it's kind of the focal point.
Right.
Right.
And this also talks a lot about what I was talking about with toxic masculinity to begin
with, but Matthew Maniachi just has a really like relatable way of being able to, to put
(18:05):
this stuff down.
At least to me, I don't know if everybody gets that the way I do, but like it just,
it's the way I would say some of this stuff if I could find the right way to speak sometimes.
You know what I mean?
I feel like even he even seems relatable to me.
I mean, as a woman, I, the way he talks about the masculine experience, it, I identify with
(18:29):
what, with that being what I see on the outside.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I really liked that, that Matthew really went into trying to define what people mean
when they're saying toxic masculinity because, and he even says it in the article, there's
such a knee jerk response to hearing those two words together and just wanting to immediately
(18:52):
fight it.
Yeah.
And that's, that's something I wanted to talk about, but go ahead.
I'll wait until you're finished with your thought.
Just tried to actually put in a little bit of a, like a little bit of context about like
what it could mean and that it is a nuanced position and that not, there's not really
anybody out there that's actually saying every man is toxic or all masculinity is toxic.
(19:20):
And so, you know, any man responding to the two words with the fight, the fight response
is kind of damaging the cause.
Anyway, but yeah, that's basically what I was trying to say.
What were you, where were you going to go with it?
So, so there's that concept about, you know, men feeling the need to defend other men because
(19:42):
they, I don't know if it actually had a because part, but I wanted to offer my perspective
in there of I see myself doing this in situations where sometimes it's, it's, you know, oh,
when somebody's talking about how women do this thing and I identify with that being
(20:03):
similar to something that I have done and then I'll sometimes jump to their defense.
And I see that being a similarity where like, it's almost like they're not so much defending
that other person and what they did, but they're actually defending what the tiny overlap,
(20:26):
the similarities of things that those people themselves have done.
And they may not have gone as far as those other people, but like it's on a line that,
that you know, each individual man can, can sometimes see like, well, I went this far
(20:47):
and I get that going that far is technically bad, but also I see from my perspective because
I went this far, it can happen.
I could see that I could accidentally, you know, have gone a little further and maybe
that's what happened.
And so they, they kind of empathize with the mistake instead of being able to identify
(21:12):
that one, that was a mistake and to accept that they made a mistake that wasn't as bad
as that one, but they made a mistake and it's okay.
But like, you still have to admit that it was a mistake.
Right. And it's so important.
I think that's a part of the toxicity is not being able to admit mistakes.
Yeah. And understand that it's okay to make mistakes.
(21:36):
Right. Which obviously isn't just masculine, but it does seem to have a large prevalence
in this toxics, the toxic part of masculinity where we're like, the man is always right.
And even when it's wrong, I'm going to speak a little bit on that if that's okay.
(21:58):
Yeah. Yeah.
All I have is my own anecdotal experience.
Right. And the things that I've seen online from other people are people that talk to
me in life, but like the people that are very pro men, they still talk about how it is the
man's job to provide, to be the rock, to take care of others, to protect, to be the strength
(22:20):
to make the rules.
Well, I only brought up the ones I brought up because they avoid the things that are
too overpowering.
But I'm bringing all of those up to say that like that all alone kind of pushes this whole
idea that we as men, even though I don't super identify as a man, but men are not really
(22:41):
allowed to make mistakes.
Men are not allowed to fall short because we have quote unquote, so much riding on our
shoulders and they know, though they never talk about it, but I think an enormous amount
of men know that as soon as you doubt yourself, you lose all of your strength and power.
(23:03):
And so they've kind of been conditioned in a certain way to not be allowed to lose their
strength, lose their confidence or admit to mistakes.
And it is damaging everything because being able to admit to your mistakes makes everything
better.
It makes you feel better.
(23:24):
What's up?
I can't help but wonder if that perspective doesn't like it sounds like it literally comes
from patriarchy, where every man believes themselves to be the king of his own castle.
Right.
The burden of a leader is such that if you question yourself too heavily, then then the
(23:49):
people around you that you are somehow managing to keep in check by, you know, being the strong,
intimidating ruling force, they are going to notice that weakness and then take advantage
of you.
But that assumes that power has to be violent or aggressive.
(24:09):
That assumes that power is controlling others rather than guiding others or influencing others,
which is it sounds like the same thing, but it's a very different perspective.
Right.
Absolutely.
A very different perspective.
Because the only power that existed a thousand years ago was the power to make people fear
(24:31):
you.
Probably.
I mean, I'm generalizing.
There were kind people that helped.
Women have been doing, you know, have been influencing people through sex and their sexuality
and sexual impulses for thousands of years.
(24:54):
So I don't, obviously violence and intimidation were not the only powers.
They just were the only powers that men were allowed to really look into, I guess.
Yeah.
Uh huh.
It was totally normal in the 80s, as recently as the 80s, for two dudes to get into a fight
(25:18):
at the bar because one said something the other person didn't agree with.
And then one of them decided that since the disagreement happened, the only way to resolve
it was to show the other one that he was too powerful to disagree with.
And that's madness to me.
I mean, I still think that happens.
Probably.
(25:39):
But yeah, I mean, that's what they mean by when they talk about like knuckle knuckle
draggers.
Is that what they call them?
I think that might be, that might be a bad term.
I don't know.
I thought that that was like referencing the fact that some men are still kind of like
their mentality is stuck in the caveman mentality.
(26:01):
Yeah.
Where you're basically little better than an ape banging his chest, screaming at other
people and knocking them over the head.
I think there's apes that would be offended about anyway.
But yeah, absolutely.
Like there's still for some reason it's still even taught that like, you know, more physical
(26:24):
power means you get to make more decisions.
And I hate it.
I hate it so much.
Yeah.
I want to call out one line from Matthew Maniachi's article.
Do you mind if we do that?
No, go ahead.
Just as we all understand to some degree that hashtag not all men are creeps who assault
(26:47):
women, it's still true that enough men are creeps.
Yep.
I just had to call that out because, you know, there is a lot of people out there that are
like, not every man does that shit.
And it's like, like I started, I think it was, I think it was the episode I started
with saying that I've been in a bunch of groups of women that were friends of mine and also
(27:10):
LGBTQIA plus folks that were friends of mine.
And the underlying problem that a lot of them experienced all the time was men, you know?
Yeah.
And I've said, I've said that before, not in different words.
I've made the statement of, yeah, not all men, but enough men.
Right.
(27:30):
Enough that, that there, it's still a big problem.
And though it may not be enough for men to care, it is definitely enough for most, like
it's one of the issues that women don't really disagree with each other about.
Right.
Because it's too dangerous for women to disagree with each other about the solidarity.
(27:52):
I mean, there are outliers, obviously it's never a hundred percent of anything, but by
and above, this is one of those issues that if you ask a woman where they stand, it's
the bear in the woods, the man or a bear in the woods problem.
It is largely going to be, I would rather deal with the bear because the bear, I can
predict how I can get away from the bear, how I can avoid the bear.
(28:17):
Right.
But I can't predict how to avoid a man because if that man knows that I am on that island,
he will stop at nothing potentially to do whatever he wants.
Even if it's only one or two or 4% of the population of the men, of men that are the
types of men that are willing to like do anything to get a, to have power over a woman or an
(28:43):
LGBTQ folk person.
Like that's one out of 20, that's one out of 25 or one out of 50.
And how long do you think it takes people to meet 50 men?
Yeah, exactly.
There's a lot of them out there.
Right?
Exactly.
So, you know, if the statistics that come out that like one in two women have been sexually
(29:08):
assaulted by the age of what 16 or 18 or something like that.
I just made that one up.
I heard one in three.
They said one in six for a long time, but it's, it's switched about five years ago to
one in three, one in three women have been sexually assaulted.
Right.
It might be one in six that have been worked.
(29:29):
That might be what that statistic is now.
But the statistics change, you know, and I think that our, I think that our next generation
actually will be better at this and it'll start to go down over time.
But I think that, I think that a lot of the, I think that there's just a lot of bad information
that's being perpetuated intentionally over and over again.
And I feel bad.
(29:50):
I feel like I'm shitting on men during our men's issues.
Well this is, this is, that's the thing.
That's what the good men have to deal with.
The biggest issue that good men have are all of these men that give every man a bad name
because the good men know, yeah, it's not all men, but it's enough men.
(30:13):
And what am I like ghosts confided in me about this very issue.
He's like, what am I supposed to do if I fight against that?
Then I'm just going to sound like those men.
So I can't do that, but I can't do nothing because then I'm, you know, like, but that's
(30:34):
the only thing you can do.
So you just end up feeling very frustrated and powerless against this worldview.
And like the thing that he ends up having the biggest urge to do is to fight, like verbally
fight with other men in the hopes of changing their perspective.
(30:54):
Right.
Which I don't know if anybody out there has been trying to change anybody else's perspective,
but it's really freaking hard to change anyone's perspective.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
And so that's the best you got though.
That's what a lot of the, a lot of the good men that come out and write about this issue
and say, like, this is really happening.
(31:16):
We have a lot of men going down a really dark and lonely and angry road right now and people
leading them there on purpose, Pied Piper's playing those melodies in the name of money.
And so what, the only thing that we as good men can do is confront the people that are
being toxic.
And that only is us yelling at somebody or confronting someone verbally and trying to
(31:41):
change their minds.
And if we can't resort to violence for it because that's exactly what they're doing.
You know what I mean?
Well, let's be honest.
If we wanted to actually like fix this as a problem without having to fix it directly
as a problem, we could fix one issue that, that by and above would affect so many other
(32:01):
issues.
It's not even funny.
If we stopped worrying about money and found a way to just share everything, then leading
people down a path wouldn't be so important.
Interesting.
Because they wouldn't be able to do anything for money.
(32:23):
You're kind of rewriting the entire power structure that we have in our society.
But that's a huge issue that I'm not really sure has a solution.
Actually I came up with a solution.
I don't know that this will actually work.
It's just an idea I had.
Do you want to hear it?
Do you want to hear a silly idea I had?
Sure.
I came up with the idea that what we should be doing is we should be taking every single
(32:48):
adolescent that exists and shoving them all together on the same giant island away from
all other civilization with an enormous number of medical professionals, mental health professionals
and life coaches.
All of them very vetted to make sure that none of them are trying to take advantage.
(33:09):
And then we just kind of let everybody from the ages of 16 to 25 figure their shit out
with infinite amount of resources to help them out.
Why would they need an island for that?
Why do you need to isolate them away from other people for that?
Because that's the age period where they get a little weird with it and I don't want it
(33:32):
to hurt the kids and I don't want the old people to have to worry about it.
Okay, but couldn't we just and we're off on a tangent here, but couldn't we just increase
support for mental health services across the board for all ages and then like sort
of make a little bit of a mandatory health check in?
(33:56):
Wouldn't that have a similar impact over time?
Maybe I think it would have.
Start alienating an entire group and an entire generation of people.
I'm not an alienating an entire generation of people.
That's not what I'm doing at all.
I mean, you want to take the adolescents.
(34:16):
That's a generation.
Well, as soon as they get to be 25, they get to go back out into the real world and there
is preparation for months beforehand to help them reintegrate.
But wherever you start, that is going to be the start of a generation of people.
You understand that?
That's how generations work, right?
Time is fluid.
(34:37):
So, so you're, you're suggesting that we alienate an entire generation of people, fix them,
but the rest of the world is just screwed until they get out.
And then, and then what?
That 25, they somehow come back and fix everybody else.
I think giving mental health services for everybody and making mandatory mental health
(35:00):
checks being a thing.
Like I think that that goes a long way to, to that maybe making, you know, how you have
to get a pediatrician for a child.
Maybe there should be a mandatory mental health crew for children.
I understand what you're saying.
What you're saying is a great idea.
You've misrepresented what I was trying to say, but mine's a story idea that we can talk
(35:21):
about another time.
Hey, Sturgis here.
It's just for funsies.
Hey, Sturgis.
But that is, but there is a misrepresentation there, but you, what you're saying is correct
and we can move on.
Sorry about making the tangent happen.
No, that's all right.
It was a fun tangent.
And besides Sturgis here now.
Yeah.
Hello, Sturgis.
So at the end of the day, Matthew Maniachi talks about how masculinity could be like
(35:48):
in a very serious way and it sounds like a beautiful world from my perspective.
And I don't think it sounds like utopia.
I think it sounds very doable, very reasonable, still has plenty of room for, you know, things
to be imperfect without being catastrophic.
And then we have our last article who was, it was written by Patrick Metzger.
(36:15):
I hope I'm saying that right.
And it's called, can't make it as an alpha male.
Here are some options.
You know, in case, in case the reality of Matthew Maniachi's solution wasn't enough,
here are some that maybe are a bit more jovial.
(36:38):
This one was, this one was kind of a breath of fresh air.
Had some good, I mean, I'm going to call it out.
It had some good comedy to it, honestly.
But you've heard of alpha male, alpha male and sigma male and beta male, right?
Let's make some other ones for funsies because it'd be hilarious.
That's what this was and it was delightful.
(37:00):
Yeah.
What was the, what was the one that really got us?
It wasn't the Frodo, although the Frodo male was, was pretty funny too, which that's the
subtitle.
You can be a Frodo male.
I think it was the very last one.
But I think Burger King male might've been the one that we were really.
No, no, no.
What was the one above that?
The seagull.
(37:21):
The seagull, the seagull male.
I'm just like, he's just like pulling different animals out of, out of his butt, you know,
like you could just just be the snake male or be the, the sea slug male.
Right.
I mean, and I hope this isn't a call out because I think that this might've been what
happened and it was hilarious for me to envision it.
(37:44):
This dude was just sitting on his couch and he saw, you know, a magazine, two movies,
a bird outside and out the window, the Burger King down the street.
And I was like, those are my five male types.
Right.
And then just, and it just made shit up based on what those are.
And I thought it was hilarious.
I loved it.
(38:04):
It was fantastic.
After reading through, oh my God, after reading through the articles that were, that were
that we just could not justify mentioning to give them any sort of traction.
And that I felt a little bit bad that my read went to making them feel better about their
life choices.
(38:24):
This article was just, just chef's kiss.
So happy.
It was a good one.
I don't know that we have an enormous amount to really say about it.
Go check it out.
I don't want to ruin the surprise of it.
Yeah, I feel like we've already said more than we should have maybe about it, but like
(38:44):
go and read it.
It's got so many great, like it, there's some that sound like they're a little bit serious
and you're like, I don't know, but, but like you get, you get further down and you're like,
oh, this is just, those weren't serious.
That was supposed to be ridiculous.
Right.
And that goes to show how bad things are with this situation, that there are some things
(39:08):
that are meant to be ridiculous, but we at first were like, is, is he serious?
Is this right?
Because it could be because there are probably people out there that say that not ironically.
Yeah, there are, there are certainly people out there.
I mean, sigma male was a joke when it first came out, but then people started making a
(39:31):
real actual thing that they wanted to follow with it.
And then I think I've heard popularized Omicron male and I don't even know what that one is.
And it's like, what are we, what are we doing?
What are we doing guys?
Like just be a you male.
Who are you?
In a way, in a way it's heartening because you remember back in the nineties where there
(39:55):
were all these like different types of girls that you could be, you could be a Barbie girl
or you could be a lipstick lesbian girl.
You could be a Valley girl.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There were all these different girls and it was like this huge girl power movement that
like the world was open to you.
(40:16):
You could be a business woman.
You could like, and this is sort of the male pendulum of that.
Yeah.
I would love that if we could just like let guys just pretend to be their own action figure
of whatever they want to be, you know, you could go be the fire truck man and you can
(40:36):
go be the military man or whatever, you know, like, as long as not, as long as all those
men aren't toxic, preferably, preferably none of them.
Or like you could be a goth girl, right?
Whole identity based on a style.
Yeah.
So you know, I, in that respect, I don't mind there being options for men.
(41:03):
I just, I just mind that all of the options seem to follow a particular theme.
Right.
Exactly.
Goth girl, Sturgey.
Do we have the Sturge commenting?
Yeah.
Do you not see the comments?
No, my chat has three.
Yeah.
Goth girl Gerald is so much better.
I agree.
(41:26):
Goth girl Gerald.
Fantastic.
Oh, for some reason my chat wasn't advancing.
I didn't see Sturge say anything yet.
Oh, weird.
Yeah.
He's posted 11 different things.
I see that now.
Hound mail.
That's a good.
(41:47):
I'm the quarter pounder with cheese mail.
Yeah.
So not to, not to reveal everything that he puts in there.
Go read Patrick's article about having different options.
I think, I think maybe at some point somebody should write it not ironically, but until
then this is something that will be very funny.
(42:09):
And we all need a breath of fresh air sometimes.
You cannot just live in the issues of the world or the issues of your life.
You sometimes have to find smiles.
Yeah.
And it doesn't necessarily have to mean that, you know, that the struggle isn't worth talking
about.
We're not, we're not using this article to poo poo it away.
(42:30):
It's just sometimes you got to come up for some fresh air and, and focus on something
else for a little bit because oh my God, it's this, this episode was very overwhelming,
as overwhelming as the women's issue was or the, the grief episode was like this one was,
it just felt like, you know, that feeling of like a wave right above you, but like it's
(42:56):
a, it's a whole else like tsunami wave and it's just about to crash on top of you.
Like that's what this episode felt like.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was, it was a, it was a lot, I kind of had to go some internal places for this one,
but it's okay.
I'm, I'm actually, that's part of the reason why I like doing the podcast is that it does
(43:20):
help me rethink some things sometimes.
Yeah.
Be able to come up with new ways of thinking of things sometimes.
Getting vulnerable has that effect.
And when we talk, you and I, we do tend to get pretty vulnerable.
Yeah.
Yeah, we do.
So, yeah, check out the articles that we brought to you today.
(43:42):
Patrick Metzger's is hilarious.
Maniachis and Maniachis has hope to it.
Yeah.
I think Mids and Shorts article really targets a specific issue and still has a little bit
of hope.
It does have some hope to it.
So, so like, it's not, there's, there's light at the end of the tunnel.
I think it's just that we know that light, it's not ours to reach.
(44:08):
Yeah.
We don't get control over when we reach it.
It's, it's there for when we can figure out a way to make it, make that light more appealing
to the vulnerable young males of today so that maybe tomorrow we can all stand in the
(44:28):
light and be out of this fucking tunnel.
Wouldn't that be nice?
That would be nice.
Something to hope for.
And then maybe that one in three number might, might start to change in a good direction.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, Tam, what do you think?
(44:50):
Did we do an episode?
I think we did an episode.
I think this was an episode.
Yeah.
I think we did a pretty good episode.
I think so too, even though Sturge was only here for the end of it.
I want to thank Sturge for being a part of the live recording.
Absolutely.
Thank you, buddy, for showing up.
And you, dear listener, can be a part of the live action by joining our Discord through
(45:15):
the MonsterAlly.com, which also has links to our articles, Spotify and Substack.
I want to thank you all for hanging out and listening to us today.
I'm internally mortal and I hope you find smiles this day.
I'm the Accidental Monster and you can find us on Medium.com or through the MonsterAlly.com,
which is T-H-E-M-O-N-S-T-E-R-A-L-L-E-Y.com.
(45:39):
And remember to follow yourself always.
Boop.
Woot.
I have to pee really bad.
Do you mind?
Yeah, go run.
Okay.
I shall return.
Sturge never knows where he is.
Never.
Everything is the opposite of what you think it is, buddy.
I'm so sorry to hear that.
(46:00):
Except not everything.
Everything you think about Mike is true.
That's probably for sure.
Uh.
Uh.
Uh.
I was afraid we weren't going to get to see you, buddy.
It'd be the Monday and all.
Uh, you'd have to ask.
But I bet.
(46:20):
Sure.
Probably.
Have you seen the anime Fruit's Basket?
Because that's pretty kind of a loaded phrase there for me.
Fruit Basket.
But it's a really good anime.
Really enjoyed it a lot.
Both versions, actually.
I can't remember.
(46:41):
Did you ever watch anime?
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Kyo and Toru.
Eh, that's alright.
Not everything is for everyone.
I just started watching the original Dragon Ball recently.
(47:03):
Like the original Dragon Ball.
Uh.
I gotta get through it.
It's like a cultural touchstone so I can really understand our culture.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
And you know what I saw more of in the first three or four episodes than I ever expected
to see?
(47:24):
Kid Goku's genitals.
It is not something that I expected or wanted, but the original Dragon Ball is way racier
than I expected.
And just straight up showing off things that should not be shown.
Yeah.
I don't think you have a gift for that.
Please don't have a gift for that.
(47:45):
I'll have to delete it if you have a gift for that, honestly.
What did I miss?
Nothing.
Anime talk.
I clearly missed something.
I was talking about how I started watching Dragon Ball recently.
The original Dragon Ball anime.
And in the first two or three episodes you see Child Goku's genitals.
(48:05):
Huh.
I mean, sure, it's just like three lines, but still, they're just there.
On the camera.
Yeah, well.
It's more racier than I expected.
Anime in Japan doesn't have to censor children's parts.
(48:25):
Yeah.
The big problem that I have is that they showed that to us and he looks like he's five.
And okay, whatever.
Especially decades ago, if you were out at your aunt's pool party and one of the kids
ran around without their swimsuit on, it'd be like, ho ho ho, nobody look.
(48:46):
You know, whatever.
And then the kid, the next episode was like, I'm 14.
And I'm like, that's not cool.
You're not supposed to do that.
You remember Photon?
I do remember Photon.
Oh, I miss Photon.
It was such a great show, but it was also so bad with that.
Because that little boy was naked so much, but he loved his big sister a little too much
(49:10):
with her giant titties.
Yeah.
He was like literally in love with her.
That was pretty much the premise and driving force of the movie or show.
I can't remember which part.
I don't know.
Yeah.
I mean, it's fine to love boobs.
It's not about the fact that he loved the boobs.
(49:32):
He was in love with his sister and was upset that she married and moved away.
Hey, Tam, how did I do on the little scripty thing, by the way?
You did pretty good.
Because I barely found it in time.
Barely.
Yeah, I did notice that, but it's okay.
(49:56):
Do you have it written down?
Because I have it physically written down so that I can just look at the paper.
No, I had to find it in our conversation.
Yeah, I had a feeling that was what happened.
Do you want me to handwrite it for you so that you can sticky it somewhere?
I'm going to literally make a new sticky note on my computer and put it on there.
(50:25):
We're going to make the sticky note.
This is such great after party content.
I actually think we did such a great job with the episode itself.
The after party and the pre-show might not... I don't know.
They might be a little lacking.
Well, the pre-show actually, we went a little bit into the men's issue stuff during the
(50:50):
pre-show.
There's some good stuff there.
Joe Dirt, what a classic movie.
I keep burping because I'm so hungry.
Yeah.
I hate it.
Yeah, well, we got another 10 or so minutes of post-show after party before we have to
(51:12):
call and then you can go eat.
Yes.
Gerald, we figured we started earlier than you could show up for, so partially on us.
We got a lot going on.
We're trying to release this week's episode and also Tam has an enormous amount of stuff
(51:34):
that she has to do for the episode we just recorded immediately.
Tam's got a lot to do tonight and I'm packing for my trip.
I've decided I'm not going to try to start editing tonight, so that takes a little bit
off of my plate.
Oh, good.
I do try to keep into the habit of doing things for the podcast right after we do the podcast,
(51:57):
but it's just not going to happen today.
Kind of glad you're taking the time for yourself.
Also, I think Ghost just got home.
Oh, yeah?
I think so.
I can't look, but I can't see.
Yes.
There is a vehicle.
(52:18):
Yes, there is a vehicle.
Focus on your critical self-care.
I love Schitt's Creek.
That was such a great show.
I never saw it.
You should.
That was really good.
(52:40):
Mortal was able to see above the counter.
What?
I don't know.
That's what Sturge said.
I don't get it.
So I don't know if he's going to come in through the front door or the back door.
Yeah, I understand.
I did message him, but you know how it can go.
(53:02):
I still don't get it.
Gerald.
Because you were looking out the window.
Oh, no, I was leaning.
I am short, but I was leaning to a side in my chair and didn't want to knock over stuff
in my room.
But I am short.
I always love when people have short jokes and then they're trying to explain it without
(53:23):
saying that being short is the joke, but it just doesn't hit.
And so then you're short.
That's the joke.
You're short.
Yeah, that's a good one.
It's a lot easier for people that have the Napoleon complex, you know, because they're
all angry about it constantly.
Like me?
Like everything has to do with their height.
(53:44):
Yeah.
I used to hate the fact that I was short.
You had that and you know, your offspring has that a little bit.
I'm all right with it now.
I don't like having to stand on top of a chair to get to the time short.
I'm five foot three.
I'm not miniature.
No, I'm not as short as Ghost's mom.
She's like under five foot.
(54:06):
I feel like a freaking monster around them.
I'm like, I'm so fat and I'm tall.
I'm like nothing like what you should be attracted to because all the women in Ghost's family
are tiny.
That's not necessarily how that works every time.
But I'm regular woman people sized.
(54:27):
So but do you feel like you're towering over them and feel bad about that sort of thing?
Does it feel weird?
You know, I don't I don't so much feel like I'm towering over them because we don't really
stand next to each other very often.
But I I'm much larger, like in a weight sense.
So I feel fat around them.
I feel like I feel like Miss Piggy.
(54:50):
Oh, I don't think you're fat.
But I understand you do.
That's OK.
Yeah, I feel fat.
I just I was a little self conscious about being short in my youth because all my cousins
are well over six foot.
Oh, yeah, that's true.
Because I'm adopted.
(55:11):
So I was always very short compared to everybody in my family.
But like I kind of didn't care.
Like I just took the I took the joking, the point, picking fun at me and calling me stack
and shrimp and all that other stuff all the time.
Like it didn't matter after a certain point.
(55:32):
I got so desensitized to it, it just didn't matter.
And so like when people think thanks, Ronald McDonald, it could be that you just shoved
it aside to where you stopped feeling the pain.
Maybe but for whatever reason, it doesn't really affect me.
And so now when people are trying to make the joke that I'm short, I usually don't get
(55:52):
it because I it just doesn't hit with me right away.
That's not what I turn to as a thing.
Oh, because you're not afraid of people pointing it out because it's been pointed out so much.
You're just like, yeah, it's just a given.
I'm short.
It's fine.
Right.
You just start with that.
I'm short by being like, I think just barely on the low side of average for an adult male.
(56:15):
Yeah, I don't really I don't I don't know that you're really that short.
Like what are you five seven?
Yeah.
I mean, I know it's not six foot, but I've do you remember the friend I used to have?
(56:36):
Well, it's the it's the post show.
I'm just going to name his first name.
Yeah, Nathan.
Yeah.
He was the same height as me.
He was like five foot four.
He was short.
He was real short.
So apparently they have different ages for the average height.
(57:00):
And for the young man, 20 to 39, it's five foot nine inches.
Really?
For 40 to 59, it's still five foot nine inches, but it's like a quarter of a centimeter shorter.
And then for 60 years and older, it's five foot eight.
So a good two and a half centimeters shorter.
(57:21):
So interesting.
So once we get if I don't shrink, which I probably will, by the time I'm like 80, I'll
be the average height.
You got to take real good care of your spine.
I already have degenerative.
I know.
So like lose lose some weight.
(57:43):
Do do some spine exercises to try to preserve your spine and maybe you'll be, you know,
the average around the average height when we're old.
Maybe and I'm the tallest Asian that doesn't have any Asian blood.
(58:08):
That doesn't make sense.
Well, Mr. Said that was a tall Asian.
Hey, I'm average.
Is that Malcolm in the middle?
Yeah, I think so.
Or is that boy meets world?
Oh, that might be boy meets world.
Yeah, that's the one with Topanga.
(58:28):
I didn't watch either one of them, so they look identical to me.
I watched some boy meets world and I had a huge crush on Topanga.
And what years were those?
90s?
Yeah, I don't know what I was doing, why I didn't watch any of these shows.
(58:55):
Everybody else was watching them.
But whatever time slot they had, I was apparently watching something else.
Yeah, it was 93 to 2000.
So it would have been through like middle school and high school for you.
And I think you were a little focused on IRL world.
No, if it was the early part of high school, then I was probably watching cartoons.
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