Betrayal at work is the hidden threat sabotaging your culture, health, and performance. In this episode, Josh Matthews talks with Dr. Debi Silber, TEDx speaker, psychologist, and author of Trust Again, about how workplace betrayal damages trust and how you can heal.
Learn why betrayal is different from any other trauma, the symptoms of Post-Betrayal Syndrome, and the five proven stages of recovery. Whether you lead a team or are healing yourself, you’ll discover actionable strategies to rebuild trust and create a thriving workplace.
Keywords:
workplace betrayal, rebuilding trust, team culture, leadership, trauma recovery, Dr. Debi Silber, TEDx speaker, Post-Betrayal Syndrome, employee well-being
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Debi Silber (00:00):
And this is where and people think I'm crazy
when I say you know, trauma isthe greatest catalyst for
transformation, because it is.
You are cracked wide open andit's from that space that you
deliberately and intentionallyrebuild yourself.
Josh Matthews (00:15):
Welcome to the Hiring Edge, the podcast helping
leaders navigate the age of AI,create teams that thrive and
build a workplace people neverwant to leave.
Welcome to the Hiring Edge.
Today's guest is Dr DebbieSilber, founder of the
Post-Betrayal TransformationInstitute, holistic psychologist
, tedx speaker and best-sellingauthor of Trust Again and seven
(00:35):
other books.
She's the go-to expert onbetrayal and how it wrecks not
just your health and mindset,but your workplace too.
We're talking about betrayal inthe office, broken trust
between leaders, teammates andpartners, and how betrayal
outside the office can silentlysabotage team performance and
culture.
If you're building a team,leading one or just trying to
show up better at work, thisone's for you, so let's get into
(00:58):
it.
Welcome, dr Silber.
It's great to have you.
Dr. Debi Silber (01:01):
Just call me Debbie Well thank you so much
Looking forward to ourconversation.
Josh Matthews (01:04):
It's great to have you Just call me Debbie.
Well, thank you so much,Looking forward to our
conversation.
So, Debbie, you had thisincredible experience of
betrayal, both in the home thateventually was resolved, which
is amazing as well as with yourfamily, and that drove you to
just say you know what?
I'm going to go get a PhD inthis.
And when you went and did yourstudies, you made three
(01:27):
groundbreaking discoveries.
Maybe we can start there andshare with everybody what those
are.
Dr. Debi Silber (01:32):
Yeah, you know, I don't think anybody says, oh,
I think I want to studybetrayal, I like that topic.
No, because you have to.
And my whole way of doingthings is, if I want to learn
something, you know, I always goto books or courses or
something.
And so here I was, I wasbetrayed and there was no book,
there was no course, there wasno anything.
And this was so big that Ineeded to study it.
(01:53):
So big.
So, at 50, here I was four kids, six dogs, a thriving practice,
and I enrolled in a PhD programand it was really just to
understand how the mind works.
You know why people do whatthey do and how I could truly
heal from this.
And while I was there, I did astudy.
I studied betrayal truly tohelp me heal and help my clients
and whatever.
That study led to threegroundbreaking discoveries which
(02:16):
changed my health, my family,my work, my life.
Josh Matthews (02:20):
Well, you certainly seem happy and healthy
, so we're excited to hear whatthese were.
Dr. Debi Silber (02:25):
Yeah.
So the first one was you know,I had a feeling that betrayal
was a different type of trauma.
I had been through death of aloved one, I'd been through
disease and I was like you knowwhat Betrayal feels different?
I didn't want to assume it wasthe same for all my study
participants, so I asked them ifyou've been through other
traumas besides betrayal?
Does it feel different for you?
And unanimously they said it'sso different.
(02:47):
And here's why Because it feelsso intentional.
We take it so personally, sothe entire self gets shattered
Rejection, abandonment,belonging, confidence,
worthiness, trust Like when youlose someone you love and
everybody can relate to this.
You grieve, you mourn, right.
Life will never be the same,but you don't necessarily
(03:07):
question the relationship, youdon't question your ability to
trust, you don't question yoursanity with betrayal.
You do so that it's a differenttype of trauma that requires a
different way to heal.
That was the first discovery.
Josh Matthews (03:20):
Yeah, it's, it's.
It's incredible, you know, whenwe try and put, you know, you
can't put a Band-Aid on a badartery right.
(03:40):
Different pain, differentinjuries require different
procedures, methodologies,shattering.
It's like, oh, you know, maybethese five steps that have
worked like magic for healingall of these things, so those
normal processes, you know,denial and so on, and moving
through those stages, how arethose stages?
Dr. Debi Silber (03:53):
different, the second.
So to answer your question.
The second discovery wasthere's actually a collection of
symptoms physical, mental andemotional so common to betrayal.
It's now known as post-betrayalsyndrome, and we've had easily
over 100,000 people take ourpost-betrayal syndrome
(04:16):
assessment to see to what extentthey're struggling.
The first thing is we've allbeen taught time heals all
wounds, right.
I have the proof that when itcomes to betrayal, that's not
true.
A new relationship won't healit.
Time won't heal it If youintentionally and deliberately
heal it.
That's what's going to heal it,and every few months I pull the
stats from the quiz.
I'm happy to share some of themif that would serve.
Josh Matthews (04:38):
Please do no, that's great.
Okay, Because Josh that wouldhave been an awkward moment if
you said no it would have beenan awkward moment if you said no
, it would have been reallyweird.
No, we don't want your stats.
Please, no facts.
Dr. Debi Silber (04:55):
Okay, all right .
So now imagine 100,000 people,men and women just about every
country is represented.
Okay, as much as I'm going toshare the symptoms.
Hear these numbers 78%constantly revisit their
experience.
81% feel a loss of personalpower Through every symptom I'm
sharing.
Imagine how this shows up inthe workplace and I know we're
going to dive into that moredeeply.
(05:16):
94% deal with painful triggers.
These are the most commonphysical symptoms.
71% have low energy.
68% have sleep issues.
63% have extreme fatigue.
So you go to sleep all night.
You wake up, you're exhausted.
Now think about you're showingup for your workday.
47% have weight changes.
(05:37):
So in the beginning you can'thold food down.
Later on, you're emotionallyeating yeah, the yo-yo
(05:59):
concentrate.
You have a gut issue.
You're exhausted.
And now you're supposed toperform at work.
Now you're supposed to sell,Now you're supposed to, you know
, promote that new program orproduct.
Right, that's not evenemotionally.
Emotionally, 88% experienceextreme sadness.
83% are very angry.
Now, if you're walking aroundvery angry, what's that going to
(06:22):
do to team culture andcollaboration and how are you
going to handle someone's?
Like a misunderstanding orsomething like that?
You're going to compoundeverything If that's what you're
attracting, if that's whatyou're putting out Sure, because
it's the dark side.
Josh Matthews (06:37):
Let's face it.
It's just the dark side, it'sfeeding the wrong force.
Dr. Debi Silber (06:41):
Exactly Because you're so upset, You're so
angry, you don't know what to dowith this.
You're told kind of keep it outof the office, but it can't
help but seep in.
I'll just read a few more.
This one killed me.
Eighty four percent have aninability to trust.
If you can't trust, think aboutit.
This was the person you trustedthe most.
Now how in the world?
(07:02):
Now you don't even trustyourself because you're like
where was I?
How did I not see?
How did I not know?
So if I can't trust the personI trusted the most and I can't
trust myself, how do I trust myboss, my coworker, my colleague.
Josh Matthews (07:13):
Yeah, and you're really putting yourself in a
position of isolation, becauseyou don't trust.
Dr. Debi Silber (07:22):
You don't trust anybody or what anybody's doing
or thinking, so it's a mess.
And just a few more here 67%prevent themselves from forming
deep relationships becausethey're afraid of being hurt
again.
So that's where you put the bigwall up.
You're like no one's gettingclose to me again.
So think about this If you're aboss or a leader of some kind,
(07:45):
you're not allowing people toget close to you in any way.
So how does that reflect onyour leadership?
They can't come near you, theydon't understand, you know.
Or even just in a, you're like,let's say, two employees
working together.
If you have that big wall up,what kind of connections are you
(08:05):
making?
Josh Matthews (08:07):
You see, yeah, look, it's a nightmare.
You've just described theingredients for a toxic work
environment right, exactly.
We did a poll recently I thinkit was this past winter around
the top reasons why people wantto exit or leave a business.
The number one reason forleaving was toxic work
(08:29):
environment.
But something that was reallyinteresting because, look, I've
talked to a lot of people, justlike you I don't know how many
thousands and thousands andthousands and thousands of
interviews, and there is asubset of people that claim
every job that they've had intheir last three or four jobs
has been toxic.
(08:49):
Right, and so it's a trickything to recognize what, if this
is me, what if this is, is myfilters, are my uh impressions,
or what I'm bringing to thetable, or how I'm showing up and
how much of it is actually that.
You know Susie's just not verygood at managing, or Jim is
(09:15):
dealing with betrayal, you know,in his own life and bringing it
into work, and you know it getsvery complex here.
Dr. Debi Silber (09:22):
Well, you know what it actually doesn't,
because that was what the thirddiscovery was about.
I like that yeah.
Josh Matthews (09:29):
Simple is always nice, right.
Dr. Debi Silber (09:31):
So there's definitely that element of is it
?
You know everybody else aroundus and that could be the case,
but it's also where we land andstay after a betrayal.
That was the third discovery.
So what was discovered was,while we can stay stuck for
years, decades, a lifetime, andmost people do if we're going to
fully heal and by fully heal Imean those symptoms of
(09:54):
post-betrayal syndrome that Ijust shared to this completely
rebuilt place where you rebuildyour life and yourself.
To move through that, you willgo through five proven,
predictable stages, and what'seven more exciting about that is
we learned what happensphysically, mentally and
emotionally at every one ofthose stages and what it takes
(10:15):
to move from one space to thenext.
Healing is entirely predictable.
Josh Matthews (10:19):
So talk about that very first step, if someone
wants to.
They recognize they've beenbetrayed, they recognize that
they're exhibiting.
Maybe they can't even identifyit, because sometimes betrayal
happens in childhood and wecan't name it, we're not sure
what it is, we're not sure ifit's it's like yeah, but I was
(10:39):
loved.
But why am I so upset?
I love my parents.
Why am I?
Why am I so frustrated?
I really like everybody on myteam.
Why am I kind of seething ormildly disappointed in them,
constantly Like these sorts ofthings?
So I suppose we can look firstlike do we have these symptoms
that you, that you just shared?
(11:00):
And then what do we do aboutthat?
Dr. Debi Silber (11:02):
Yeah, well, one of the and I'm happy to move
you through the five stages soyou see, cause everyone will
know exactly where they are.
When I shared the five, stagesbut I'll tell you what an
unhealed betrayal looks like.
It looks like in your health,in your work, in your
relationships, like this.
This is how you know it'sunhealed in relationships.
We'll see it in one of two ways.
Number one way repeat betrayals.
The face has changed, but it'sthe same thing.
(11:23):
And you go from boss to boss toboss, partner to partner,
partner, friend to friend tofriend.
You say, is it me?
Yes, it is Not in that it'syour fault, in that there is a
profound lesson waiting to belearned.
Maybe the lesson is justunderstand already that you are
lovable, worthy and deserving.
You need better boundaries inplace.
(11:46):
Whatever that particular lessonis for you, until and unless
you get that, you'll haveopportunities in the form of
people to teach you.
So repeat betrayals.
Classic sign take a look, takea look, it's unhealed.
The second way is where thatbig wall goes up right, where we
just cannot risk that level ofvulnerability again, because it
was so painful that we ratherwould keep everyone at a
(12:09):
distance than take that chanceand heal.
So that's unhealed, that's hard, that's not healed.
We see it in health.
People go to the mostwell-meaning, amazing doctors,
coaches, healers, therapists tomanage a stress-related symptom,
illness, condition, disease.
At the root of it is anunhealed betrayal.
Like you heard me share, 45% ofeverybody who's betrayed has a
(12:32):
digestive issue.
You can go to the best gutdoctor on the planet I'm friends
with many of them but unlessyou get to the root of that,
it's unhealed Like, for example,we had a woman in our community
in her mid eighties.
She had a family betrayal 70years ago she was adopted.
They didn't tell her it waslike one of those things.
(12:52):
70 plus years she had adigestive issue.
Two weeks into healing the rootissue she healed from 70 plus
years of a digestive issue.
Josh Matthews (13:00):
It's incredible, can I ask you like?
I've been to therapists.
I've done couples therapy, I'vedone individual therapy.
Some of them have been awesome.
Some of them have, I think,made it harder for me to trust
therapists.
Right, because that happens alot and I don't mind saying this
(13:22):
.
I think vulnerability winsalways.
You know, sharing someone'spersonal experiences, when
someone how do I put this?
When we have a problem, when wehave an issue, when we have
something that we need to fix,we can often compound it by
trying to heal, with all thebest intentions, but using the
(13:43):
wrong, wrong way to heal that orto fix that solution.
In other words, the solutionbecomes the thing that worsens
the problem, that sets it indeeper and deeper and deeper,
that increases the infection, soto speak.
Right, how does someoneunderstand how to go, how to
(14:06):
maybe even identify whether ornot whatever they're doing,
whatever their solution is rightnow, is making things better or
making things worse?
And I'll give, I'll give aquick example.
There are some therapists thatwill validate and you talked
about this on your podcast willwill validate you, and that's
(14:28):
good.
We need to be heard and we needto be validated.
But then there's this thingthat gosh, you know, if you're
talking about the past everysingle week, it's very difficult
to be living in the presentwith hope and living in the
future right.
I mean, when is enough?
Enough of diving into the pastversus like, what kind of
behaviors am I going to take now?
(14:49):
How do I take action to moveforward?
Dr. Debi Silber (14:51):
Yeah, it's a great question and this is
something we see.
If I tell you how many peoplecome into the PBT Institute with
therapy and counselors, trauma,these are well-meaning
counselors and therapists, butwhen you understand the five
stages and, like I said, happyto share them, what's happening
is very often and in thebeginnings, particularly in
stage two out of the five stagesyou need to feel heard,
(15:12):
validated, understood.
But if that's all, you'regetting over and over and over
again, what it's doing isrooting you in the most common
place.
We get stuck and it becomes sofamiliar that we just can't even
imagine leaving that space.
So it's a common thing and it'sinteresting because I certify a
lot of coaches, a lot oftherapists, a lot of healers, a
(15:34):
lot of healers and thetherapists are the hardest ones
for me to certify, because theyjust want to make sure that
person feels heard and that'sthat's wonderful, but they also
need to move through the stages.
So that's that's our intentionto move them.
Josh Matthews (15:50):
You know it's, it's.
It's interesting to hear this.
People are drawn to cause.
Look, this is a professionalshow.
It's about professions, it'sabout your career and in my
career as a, as as a headhunterand as a leader um in in
recruiting over the yearssometimes a big fortune 500
company, sometimes just my ownlittle gig and I've I have
(16:12):
noticed that a lot of people whoare attracted to becoming
recruiters.
They're attracted because theylike people and they want to
help people and like that'sgreat.
But the thing that you need tobe a good recruiter is
discernment.
You need to know that eventhough this person has good
intentions, this candidate hasgood intentions, they're nice,
(16:35):
you like them.
The fact that you feel bad fortheir situation cannot at all
come into play.
When you're trying to serve theclient, they're paying you
$30,000 to deliver them someonewho's going to fix and heal and
enhance their team, enhancetheir business, grow their
revenue, whatever it has, solvea major problem, like whatever
it is.
Do you think that by the natureof it and I know this is a
(16:58):
little bit off track, but do youthink that just the nature of
the profession of psychology,which often attracts people who
suffered trauma, found ithelpful, want to help others,
which is a wonderful progression, but do you think that
sometimes it can lack thatability to be a little bit more
(17:23):
like the leadership that'snecessary inside of those
psychological relationships, tobe like okay, we've talked about
that, I'm glad that you'resharing this again, but I've
been, I've heard it.
We need to do something aboutit now.
Let's move forward.
Dr. Debi Silber (17:39):
Yeah, it's.
You know, when you're talkingabout the same thing for months,
years, decades, that's.
That's something else.
It's one thing if you don'thave anybody, a support system,
and you feel like you know what.
I have a lot that I'm movingthrough and I need a sounding
board.
I need, I need some supporthere.
Sure, yes, that's wonderful andin the earlier stages, like I
(18:01):
said and again, happy to sharethe stages, it's important.
But when that's all you'regaining from the experience,
you're not moving through thestages and you're keeping
yourself tragically stuck wherethe only thing available to you
are more symptoms ofpost-betrayal syndrome, more
betrayals, because you're livingin a state of if nothing
(18:25):
changes, nothing changes.
You don't have access to thosenew insights, that new awareness
that happens when you're pastyour trauma.
Josh Matthews (18:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Why don't you go ahead?
If you can share those fivestages with us, I'd love that.
Dr. Debi Silber (18:38):
Yeah, yeah, so everyone will notice exactly
where they are.
Stage one actually, before ithappens, and if you can imagine
four legs of a table, the fourlegs being physical, mental,
emotional and spiritual, what Isaw with everybody me too was a
heavy lean on the physical andmental thinking and doing, which
is how most of us walk around,right, and kind of neglecting or
ignoring the emotional and thespiritual.
(18:59):
Well, if a table has two legs,easy for that table to topple
over, and that's us.
Stage two shock trauma, d-day,discovery day.
This is the scariest of all ofthe stages, and this is the
breakdown of is shattered.
Right, that's your model.
Trust this person, don't gothere.
These are the rules, and in oneearth shattering moment, every
(19:35):
rule you've been holding to bereal and true is no longer.
Your bottom has bottomed out onyou and a new bottom hasn't
been formed yet.
This is terrifying, right?
Josh Matthews (19:47):
Terrifying.
Dr. Debi Silber (19:48):
Terrifying.
And here you are supposed to belike hi, new partner, let me
sell this thing.
Yeah, you can barely function.
Yeah, think about it.
If the bottom were to bottomout on you, what would you do?
You'd grab hold of anything oranyone.
Josh Matthews (20:03):
Absolutely.
Dr. Debi Silber (20:03):
Stay alive and stay safe.
Josh Matthews (20:05):
Yeah, could be a bottle, could be a joint, could
be some pills, could be going toclubs, all sorts of things that
aren't going to serve you.
Dr. Debi Silber (20:17):
Exactly.
And what's happening here isnow you're surviving, and
because you feel that it's somuch better than the shock and
trauma that you just came from,we think it's good.
And because we don't knowthere's anywhere else to go we
don't know there's a stage fouror stage five so we plant roots
here.
We're not supposed to, but fourthings start to happen.
(20:38):
The first thing is you startgetting all those small
self-benefits.
You think about it, you go towork, you tell your story.
You get all that confirmation,you get to be right, you get
sympathy from everyone.
You get your story we love ourstory right.
And so now this is sort of whatyou're talking about, what
you're thinking about.
So now the mind starts doingthings.
(20:59):
Like you know, maybe you're notthat great, maybe you deserved
it, maybe this, maybe that.
So you plant these deeper rootsNow, because these are the
thoughts you're thinking, thisis the energy you start putting
out.
Like energy attracts, likeenergy.
So now you start having thatsituation with your boss,
another thing with your coworker, another experience with a bad
(21:19):
relationship, right, same thing.
And you're like what the heckis it me?
And now you join that supportgroup.
You actually sabotage yourselfbecause you found your people.
Here's where you see atherapist and you're just what's
happening.
And, over and over, here'swhere you're actually starting
to heal, but you sabotage yourhealing because you're afraid to
(21:40):
outgrow your betrayer, who hasno intention of changing.
Gets worse, but I'll get youout of here?
Josh Matthews (21:46):
What do you mean by that?
Afraid to outgrow your betrayer?
Dr. Debi Silber (21:49):
Yeah.
So let's say you have, let'ssay it's a, it's a relational
betrayal, so this is yourpartner and they betrayed you.
And let's say they have nointention of changing, like this
wasn't the biggest wake up callof their life, where there's
tremendous regret, remorse, youknow all of that and they're
just sort of blaming you ormaking excuses or whatever it is
(22:10):
.
Because if you're stuck in thatstage three where you're
managing and suppressing yoursymptoms, right, because now
you're so miserable, you have toget through your day.
So now you're numbing, avoiding, distracting, like what you
shared before work drugs,alcohol, anything.
So now you're saying toyourself I'm so sick, I'm so
(22:32):
miserable, I'm so terrible.
Maybe they're right, maybe Ishould just find a way to be
okay with this.
Josh Matthews (22:37):
I'm not worthy.
Dr. Debi Silber (22:38):
Yeah, and so what they're doing is they're
solidifying their spot in stagethree.
And now the best they can hopefor, right, is a suppression of
these symptoms.
They're not going to healbecause they're not changing.
Another repeat experience,because there are no
consequences, right?
So you can only access stagethree thoughts and a stage three
(23:03):
life when you're in stage three, you see, but people are so
afraid of that death anddestruction of the old.
That's the only way you birththe new.
And which can I take it?
A four and five or go ahead?
Josh Matthews (23:14):
You can take all of us to four and five.
Dr. Debi Silber (23:17):
Okay.
So if you're willingwillingness is the biggest word
right here Willing to let go ofyour story, grieve more than the
loss all of a bunch of thingsyou can move to stage four.
Stage four is finding andadjusting to a new normal.
So here's where you acknowledgeI can't undo what happened, but
I control what I do with it.
In that decision alone you'returning down the stress response
(23:41):
.
So you're not healing just yet,but at least you stopped the
massive damage that washappening in stages two and
stage three.
Stage four feels like if you'veever moved, if you've ever moved
to a new house, office, condo,apartment, whatever your stuff's
not there.
It's not cozy yet, but it'sthis sort of hopeful excitement.
It feels like that.
But if you were to move, youdon't take everything with you.
(24:01):
You don't take the things thatdon't represent who you're now
ready to become.
And what I found was there'sthis one spot as people leave
stage three and enter into stagefour.
If your friends weren't therefor you, they're not coming
along.
That therapist who's keepingyou stuck you're done.
That lame group that's keepingyou stuck you're done.
That betrayer who's notchanging you're done.
(24:22):
That boss who won't changeyou're done.
And people say is it me?
Yes, it is.
You're undergoing atransformation.
If they don't rise, they don'tcome.
So it's a very personal, notnecessarily lonely time, very
personal time, stage four, butvery action-oriented.
Josh Matthews (24:39):
I think a lot of people leave jobs when they're
ready for stage four, just likethey leave relationships, just
like they leave towns.
We moved from Portland, oregon.
Portland's an amazing city andtreated us mostly well for most
of the time there, but then it'slike it's not serving me, right
?
I honestly this is going tosound silly I honestly felt
(25:03):
betrayed by the city I lived inbecause of how it was run and
crime and how it was managed andthe destruction of downtown and
all that stuff, like a city canbetray you.
So, of course, friends andrelationships and partners and
family members, bosses,coworkers you know, the only, it
seems like the only people whocan betray, who can't betray you
(25:25):
, are the people that you neverput any trust in to begin with.
Dr. Debi Silber (25:29):
Well, that's, that's why betrayal is so
different and that's why it's ashock to the body, the mind, the
heart, because this was theperson or these were the people
you gave your trust to.
So when this is the person orthese are the people to take
that sense of safety andsecurity away, it's traumatizing
.
And you mentioned all thedifferent ways we can feel
betrayed.
You know, we can even feelbetrayed by, let's say, a
(25:55):
company where that company saidtheir product was great for us.
It's called something, calledlike I think it's the love turns
to hate principle where yousupport this brand and this
company and you just think it'sthe greatest thing.
If you find out you've beenduped by that company, you turn
on them so fast.
We would rather knowinglychoose something bad for us,
like we know, let's say, alcoholis bad, but we're doing it, we
(26:18):
know what we're getting into.
But when a company says, oh,we're so healthy and good for
you and you find out it's not,we turn on them quickly.
There's also self-betrayal, youknow, like if you know
something or someone or yourwork or whatever is not in your
best interest and you keep goingback for more, that's
self-betrayal too.
Josh Matthews (26:37):
Yeah, and that self-betrayal and I've seen this
in family and probably myselfat certain times in my life that
self-betrayal it's the fastestway to erode self-worth.
Dr. Debi Silber (26:50):
That's a tall ladder to climb up that are
clearly not in your bestinterest.
And this is where and peoplethink I'm crazy when I say
(27:11):
trauma is the greatest catalystfor transformation because it is
you are cracked wide open andit's from that space that you
deliberately and intentionallyrebuild yourself.
And when I say people move intostages four and five new levels
of health, new businesses, newpassion projects, new
relationships of health, newbusinesses, new passion projects
, new relationships on a verydifferent level it's because one
(27:35):
of the things you are doing isyou're looking at every thought
that comes in and you're sayingdoes this still serve?
Because if not, it doesn't comealong.
And because why in the worldwould you bring along anything
with you that doesn't now allowfor this beautiful new version
(27:56):
of you to be created?
Josh Matthews (27:58):
You know this.
This is so critical.
I wrote an article I think itwas this winter about everything
that you should do before youquit right.
Everything you should do, andthe main justification for that
article is because I have seenso many people say this
environment is not good for me,I need to move on.
It's like, okay, but they leave, they go get a new job, and
(28:22):
everything that happened in thelast job it's happening in this
new job too.
And, by the way, it's going tohappen at the one after that If
you're not actually confrontingpeople, addressing the
challenges, addressing thecommunication issues, the broken
promises.
You know, hey, mrs Manager, Ijoined you said it was going to
be a hybrid role and then I goremote in three months and I
(28:46):
didn't get to do that.
I feel betrayed, I feel likeI've been snookered.
You said I was going to get abonus of 12.5% every year.
I've been here three years.
I've seen none of it.
All I've heard is excuses.
You said in six months I wasgoing to get promoted to a
solution architect instead ofsenior consultant.
It's been 18 months and everytime I broach it I'm pushed away
(29:07):
, right.
But if the people just sort ofquietly slip out, they're like,
yeah, it's not working out, oh,they didn't do blah, blah, this
and that.
Not only do they walk away withfeelings of betrayal from the
other company which can manifestand sits in you like ugly, dark
glue in your heart.
Right, it's not good stuff.
(29:28):
So not only does that happen,oh my God, you're bound to
repeat it because you neverrealized.
Well, what aspect was you right?
Hey, you forgot.
We did try to have you go remoteand you were always unavailable
on the days off.
We could no longer trust youthat you were actually at your
desk doing work, or hey, we toldyou that these were the
(29:50):
specific ways to get a bonus andthis is your record.
And maybe you forgot that thiswas a really important part of
that bonus game.
And hey, we wanted to promoteyou.
You shared that you knew thisskill set and that skill set
when you walked in the door andwithin a month, we knew that you
didn't quite have them yet.
That set things further back.
(30:12):
And, gosh, you know what?
We're sorry, because weprobably should have articulated
that to you sooner so that youdidn't feel this way and we
could have solved it andcorrected it a little bit
earlier.
And that's on us, but we feltthat you misrepresented us or
represented you also.
So you get to learn aboutyourself and like, oh gosh,
maybe they have a fucking point.
Dr. Debi Silber (30:33):
Maybe some of it is me Right?
And this is all stage threestuff.
Like think about it.
When I mentioned stage three,we're talking about our story,
we love our story, so thinkabout it.
Now we have confirming evidenceto support our belief.
You see, it's happening again.
They passed me over for thatpromotion because now it's like
we confirm all of our supporting, we have all the supporting
(30:56):
evidence and it's easy to blameeverybody else and instead of
taking responsibility.
You know, I've been in business34 years and there's a saying
that holds true no matter whatthe topic, and it holds true
here too.
And it's hard now, easy later.
Easy now, hard later.
Take your pick, it's going tobe one of those two.
And when it comes to healingfrom betrayal, I'm talking about
(31:17):
hard now because you'reassessing every single thought,
behavior, action that comes inwhere the person you just
described.
That's easy.
Now they're not making thechanges, they're not looking,
they're not assessing, they'reblaming, they're giving their
power away.
Now somebody would say to mewhat are you talking about?
I'm miserable, this is veryhard.
Yes, your scenario is miserable, but you're not doing the hard
(31:41):
work I'm talking about ofchanging those boundaries.
Josh Matthews (31:46):
It's the hardest thing.
It's so freaking hard, oh myGod.
But when we do that, we have to, we put ourselves out there,
because what we're doing whenwe're setting boundaries at
least in my experience, when weset boundaries we're putting the
relationship at risk.
It's a tricky thing, thatmoment when you finally have
let's just call it the grit andthe resolve to put yourself out
(32:11):
there.
I don't think there's a morevulnerable moment because you're
risking everything, right.
So you better make sure youknow what that boundary is and
that that is actually yourbreaking point.
It is terrifying.
Dr. Debi Silber (32:23):
And I think it's fair to say, don't ever
expect that to get easy.
It's never going to be easy,but easy isn't what's going to
create that change.
So actually in the study therewere three groups who did not
heal.
The first was the group thatthey were numbing, avoiding
distracting.
They ran to the doctor who putthem on a mood stabilizer or
anti-anxiety medication.
(32:43):
They were drinking.
Whatever they were doing, itmay have made the day a bit
easier to get through, Notwithout a price.
They, whatever they were doing,it may have made the day a bit
easier to get through, notwithout a price they didn't heal
.
The second group this was thegroup that had their story.
They were sticking with it likethat person you were talking
about, where it's everybodyelse's problem.
They didn't heal because theydidn't take responsibility.
The third group this was thegroup where the betrayer had
(33:04):
very little consequence.
So whether it was out offinancial fear, you know, let's
say it's a home scenario,Someone's, just they don't want
to, you know they don't have thefinances to live alone.
A work scenario they're afraidto lose their job, right,
Religious reasons, whatever itwas.
They did all they could to lookthe other way.
With the betrayal, I saw twothings with this group.
Number one, a furtherdeterioration of the
(33:26):
relationship.
And number two this group byfar was the most physically sick
, but we're so afraid of thoseconsequences this is what we
talked about with the boundarieswe're so afraid of those
consequences, but that's theonly way we create change.
Yeah, yeah, whether it's a newus, where it's like you know
(33:47):
what that's it, I'm movingthrough stage five regardless or
a new collective, Eventuallyyou rebuild a very different
relationship with that boss,that coworker, that partner,
based on new levels of respect,new boundaries, new everything
that's strong.
Josh Matthews (34:04):
I really liked what you said in your in one of
your episodes you're, you'resaying, look if you're, you know
your, your radiator breaks.
Or your said in your in one ofyour episodes you were saying,
look if you're, you know your,your radiator breaks, or your,
whatever, your, your hot waterheater breaks in your house, you
fix it.
A window breaks you, you, youfix it.
But when a tornado comesthrough and completely levels
(34:24):
your home, you have to rebuild.
Are you going to build the samehouse that got knocked down, or
don't you want it to be maybe alittle bit bigger, maybe a
little nicer, maybe configured alittle bit differently?
Like that's that opportunity oftransformation that comes from
that trauma of betrayal.
So I really like that.
I wonder if I can ask aboutwhat happens towards the end of
(34:46):
stage four.
So you're in stage four and nowwhat?
Dr. Debi Silber (34:50):
Yeah, so now, when you're settling into this
new, very hopeful, very new andexciting, what do I need?
What would be a great next stepfor me?
Now you move into the fifth,most beautiful stage, and this
is healing, rebirth and a newworldview.
The body starts to healSelf-love, self-care, eating
well, exercise.
(35:11):
We didn't have the bandwidthfor that earlier, now we do.
The mind is healing.
We're making those new rules,we're making those new
boundaries based on the road wejust traveled, and we have a new
worldview based on everythingwe see so clearly now.
And in the beginning, remember,it was all about the physical
and the mental.
By this point, we're solidlygrounded because we're focused
(35:33):
on the emotional and thespiritual too.
Those are the five Cs.
Josh Matthews (35:35):
Yeah, that's wonderful.
Thank you so much for sharingthat.
I would love to talk a littlebit about how the folks
listening to this program canactually understand like, hey,
am I creating betrayal in theworkplace as a leader?
I think most of the people wholisten to this are.
(35:56):
You know, have people reportingto them, or are they bringing
in symptoms of outside betrayalinto the workplace?
How do they, how can they takestock of what's actually
happening?
What are the signs.
Dr. Debi Silber (36:12):
It's a great question and the first thing is,
hopefully, hearing the fivestages you hear.
Are you stuck in that stagethree?
Because it's not your fault,that's what most people do.
But how are you showing up?
It's typically a response to anunhealed betrayal.
So think about it.
If you're struggling to trust,which is a natural, you know
(36:36):
response to betrayal, how isthat lack of trust showing up in
all of your you know, in all ofyour decisions and all of your
relationships?
If you've been, your confidencewas shattered.
Well, how is that affecting howyou show up in your you know,
in your workday and all thoseother things that you have to do
and your ability to speak up?
It's taking a look at even yourability to discern.
(37:01):
Because, think about it, if wedidn't even see this betrayal
coming, we're like I can't eventrust my own decision making,
right.
Even see this betrayal coming,we're like I can't even trust my
own decision-making, right?
So you want to take a look andsay whether it was a betrayal.
It really is.
It doesn't matter if it was abetrayal within the workplace or
outside of the workplace.
It is greatly impacting theworkplace in your ability to
(37:24):
feel safe.
You know, if you think you'rejust going to get fired because
you can't trust anything.
So, between a lack of trust,between your ability to discern,
between your think about it,the physical signs you're
exhausted, yeah.
So how could you be creative?
(37:44):
How could you?
Josh Matthews (37:45):
perform at your best.
You're exactly right.
I mean, look, I've noticed whensomeone is in a situation and
there are these reallyinteresting psychometric tests
that I like to do and some of myclients will utilize them just
to make sure that the teamdynamic is going to flow it's
going to be really solid.
(38:06):
One of the things that'samazing about this particular
psychometric evaluation is youcan see sort of what someone's
natural state is right, a littlebit beyond just the
Myers-Briggs MBTI type stuff.
You can also see how they'rehaving to behave, what is the
(38:26):
persona that they're having totake on right?
So, for instance, if I'm an ENTJand I went and got a job
working at an engineeringcompany, oh my God, that would
not be good, right.
But I'm having to go throughdetailed reports and make sure
that every T is crossed andevery I is dotted and I'm having
to operate as a sensor and notan intuitive right.
(38:47):
I'm having to force myself tobe something that's not
naturally.
It's not a natural setup.
The way my brain is wired right, that's going to.
You'll see the stress.
You'll see how much someone isliving outside of their high
functioning self right.
And it's such an incrediblething when you're on a team or
(39:12):
with a partner that you actuallyjust get to be you, and then
you're always enough.
Dr. Debi Silber (39:21):
But think about it.
That requires a level of safetythat you don't feel coming off
of a betrayal, so you don't feelsafe.
How can you relax and be you?
That level of vulnerability isterrifying.
Look what happened the lasttime we were vulnerable, See.
So, until and unless it's allhealed, we're bringing whether
it's outside or inside, we arebringing this to work with us
(39:41):
every single day Criticalthinking.
We're in survival, we can'tthink right, we can't.
We're physically not Think.
We can't think right, we can't.
Josh Matthews (39:51):
We're physically not think about it when you just
have a toothache and you'retrying to work right, oh God,
yeah.
So imagine your toe hurts, orsomething like it.
Exactly, yeah.
Dr. Debi Silber (39:57):
So when we have our heart hurting or when we're
just exhausted, we have allthese physical symptoms, the gut
issues, like I mentioned.
We can't bring our best toanything or anyone.
Josh Matthews (40:10):
Yeah, it issues.
Like I mentioned, we can'tbring our best to anything or
anyone.
Yeah, it's so difficult.
What is a specific action thatan individual can make?
Let's start.
I have two questions aroundthis.
The first one is what can theydo for themselves?
Let's say they say they'velistened to this show or they've
listened to some of your read,read your books.
They're like wow, I really amstuck here in stage three, like
(40:33):
I'm just I'm stuck.
Okay, what, what now?
What can I do?
Dr. Debi Silber (40:38):
You know the the first of all and this is
going to sound crazy but checkthe benefit of staying stuck.
You know people say benefit.
What are you talking about?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you'regetting lots of benefits from
staying there.
You don't have to make a move,you don't have to create change,
you don't have to shake upanything or anyone around you.
So I would say check thosebenefits.
(40:59):
There are actually fourquestions I would invite
everybody to write down.
That's my way of saying writethose down.
So the first question would beand this is how you see if
you're stuck.
So the first question would beand this is how you see if
you're stuck Am I numbing,avoiding distracting?
If so, how Right, like, callyourself on it.
Are you walking into thekitchen?
You're not the least bit hungry.
And there you are, you know,shooting cabinets.
The second question what am Ipretending not to see?
(41:24):
Am I pretending not to see?
I hate this job.
Am I pretending not to see?
I hate this job.
Am I pretending not to see thatI'm ignoring these glaring
signs of abuse at the workplaceor a betrayal, the ward,
whatever?
The third question what's lifegoing to look like in five to
ten years if I keep this going,play out exactly the way you're
(41:46):
handling or not handling thisscenario and look at it five to
ten years, ignore it.
Josh Matthews (41:52):
I love that Tony Robbins has a process called
it's called the Dickens process.
When you're looking at the past, the present, the future, like
the ghost is leading you through, like, okay, if this never
changed in five years, what'syour life like in 10 years?
What's your life like if it's20 years and you never made a
decision around this, you neverchanged anything.
(42:13):
What's that like?
I've gone through it.
I've helped some of my clientswalk through that process.
My partner's gone through it.
It is transformational, atleast for me.
That's my favorite part.
It's transformational to belike, okay, time to take action,
because the stakes we've beenminimizing in our head yeah,
(42:37):
what's actually at stake?
And what is at stake is therest of our life yeah, and our
happiness and fulfillment.
It's a massive thing and that'swhy.
Dr. Debi Silber (42:47):
And that's why the fourth question is what can
life look like in five to 10years if I change now?
I'm not saying it's easy.
Transformation begins when youtell yourself the truth.
Yeah.
Josh Matthews (42:59):
Beautiful, beautiful, this individual.
Let's say someone comes intothe workplace.
Let's say there's a leader.
They've gone through thisprocess either knowingly or
unknowingly, but they're ahealthy adult with excellent
leadership skills.
They've got one or moreemployees and they're seeing
(43:23):
through their behavior, eitherthrough lack of showing up,
through lack of showing up,hostility, passive aggression,
like one of your coaches sharedtoo many days absent.
Yes, they're gettingunhealthier.
The clients aren't happy withthem.
How can they gently orpowerfully disrupt that cycle
(43:48):
and be a help?
Yeah, and is it even theirplace?
Dr. Debi Silber (43:57):
You know, I'm so glad you're bringing this up,
because this is one of thethings that we're finding where
betrayal happens all the time.
It's just not spoken about.
So we're trying to make it justcommon language within the
workplace.
There's no blame, there's noshame, but let's treat the
challenge for what it is Insteadof just ignoring it or acting
like it's not there.
It's costing companies millionsand millions of dollars Because
(44:19):
think about it they're sendingsomeone to therapy or paying for
their healthcare or whatever.
And meanwhile, if you like, Ishared the woman with the 70
plus year digestive issue.
Right, when we deal with theroot, they're healed.
So if we're able to have thisconversation from this place of
listen I'm just mentioning theword betrayal here.
(44:39):
You know, could this be what'sgoing on?
We can actually handle the rootcause of what's happening so
that we can shave decades off ofthis person's pain, off their
suffering, off of their, youknow, just improve their health,
their wellbeing, theirproductivity, their everything
you want in someone at work canbe healed when they healed from
(45:02):
their betrayal.
Josh Matthews (45:03):
What might be, debbie, what might be a word
track that a leader or managercan use, that can broach this
subject, but still be HRcompliant, not be inappropriate,
not make someone feel like Isee inside your soul and I know
what's wrong with you, which canmake them, if they're not ready
(45:23):
for stage four, can oftenworsen things, or we get filters
right.
It's like the boss said thisthey're trying to help, but they
heard it's like you're notenough and you're fucking up
right.
What's a safe word track thathopefully can actually create
momentum in the right direction.
Dr. Debi Silber (45:45):
It's interesting because that was why
I wrote my most recent book, sothat it becomes this sort of
corporate wellness tool that'ssubtly letting everybody know it
has nothing, it's not yourfault, it's not whatever, but
it's affecting the workplace andlet's handle it.
That's why I wrote the BetrayalRecovery Roadmap.
(46:05):
But what a lot of people havebeen doing in the past was like
hey, did you see that TEDx talk?
It's really interesting.
Josh Matthews (46:14):
The third party subtle hit.
I love it, I love it.
Let's continue the conversationjust a little bit longer.
In what ways?
We've talked a little bit abouthow an individual can
experience betrayal and thenconsequently suffer from that
(46:35):
betrayal in the workplace mightbe able to do to confront them
so that they can either decide Ican live with this or I can't
live with this, depending onwhat stage they're in right.
(46:56):
Yeah, so in your work around thecountry, around the world, what
have you seen are the mostcommon types of betrayal in the
workplace?
Dr. Debi Silber (47:08):
Yeah, well, it's definitely.
You know, the way I describe abetrayal is the breaking of a
spoken or unspoken rule, andevery relationship has them
right.
So in the workplace was there aspoken or unspoken rule that's
been violated, and typically thebetrayal is without your
awareness or consent, someonechose to break that spoken or
(47:28):
unspoken rule.
So when we're working with ourclients who have experienced
this workplace betrayal, we willvery often because our whole
intention is, every single timewe sit down with anybody how do
we move them towards the nextstage, incrementally or in some
degree, moving them out of thisone stage into the next.
(47:51):
So very often I will assess itsomething like this I'll ask
them about their job how do youlike your job?
And they may say, oh, I love it, I just can't stand my coworker
.
Well then we're going to go inone direction.
But what if they say somethinglike you know, I really can't
stand it?
Now we can look at it and saythis whole experience may have
been the motivation you need tostart something else, like I'm
(48:13):
not telling you to quit your dayjob here, but maybe you know.
And then I'll ask them and I'mwatching them, you know, what is
it that you like oh, I reallywant to do this or that or the
other thing.
Okay, would you have ever, youknow, considered that had this
not happened?
And then, it just like smile ontheir face.
They're like you know, and nowthey're not even angry with
their coworker who stole theircredit, you know, credit for
(48:35):
their idea or whatever.
They're grateful because you'relike wow, they really gave them
incentive.
Josh Matthews (48:39):
Well, and it stops like as soon as you move
on.
You've actually moved on, yeahRight, which is powerful.
You actually go from that lovethat turned to hate.
You actually get toindifference, which is a very
comfortable place to be aroundpeople that have betrayed you.
Dr. Debi Silber (48:59):
Even better than that, you get to a place of
compassion, because now you'regrateful that that person did
that.
Now you're going to pursuesomething you love.
Josh Matthews (49:08):
I love that, Debbie.
That's fantastic.
It's been wonderful to have youon the show.
I want to make sure peoplestick around so that they can
hear exactly how they can findyour books, learn more about you
, follow your podcast and evenengage your organization's
services too.
All of that's going to beposted in the notes below on
(49:30):
YouTube.
It's going to be in the noteson the podcast as well.
If there's one message thatsomeone should walk away from
today, yeah, I can't even leaveit as one.
Dr. Debi Silber (49:42):
Can I give you two?
Why don't you give me three?
Go?
Josh Matthews (49:44):
ahead, give us three.
Dr. Debi Silber (49:46):
I want to give you two.
I want to say, even though ithappened to you, it's not about
you If you have to repeat that amillion times it's worth it.
The second thing I would say isthere's a predictable, proven,
research-based roadmap to movethrough all of it.
Staying stuck is a choiceBeautiful.
Josh Matthews (50:05):
Thank you, Dr.
Debbie.
Dr. Debi Silber (50:07):
This is fantastic.
Josh Matthews (50:08):
I am stoked about having you on this program and
thank you so much.
Dr. Debi Silber (50:13):
Thank you so much.
And this is where and people think I'm crazy
when I say you know, trauma isthe greatest catalyst for
transformation, because it is.
You are cracked wide open andit's from that space that you
deliberately and intentionallyrebuild yourself.
Josh Matthews (00:15):
Welcome to the Hiring Edge, the podcast helping
leaders navigate the age of AI,create teams that thrive and
build a workplace people neverwant to leave.
Welcome to the Hiring Edge.
Today's guest is Dr DebbieSilber, founder of the
Post-Betrayal TransformationInstitute, holistic psychologist
, tedx speaker and best-sellingauthor of Trust Again and seven
(00:35):
other books.
She's the go-to expert onbetrayal and how it wrecks not
just your health and mindset,but your workplace too.
We're talking about betrayal inthe office, broken trust
between leaders, teammates andpartners, and how betrayal
outside the office can silentlysabotage team performance and
culture.
If you're building a team,leading one or just trying to
show up better at work, thisone's for you, so let's get into
(00:58):
it.
Welcome, dr Silber.
It's great to have you.
Dr. Debi Silber (01:01):
Just call me Debbie Well thank you so much
Looking forward to ourconversation.
Josh Matthews (01:04):
It's great to have you Just call me Debbie.
Well, thank you so much,Looking forward to our
conversation.
So, Debbie, you had thisincredible experience of
betrayal, both in the home thateventually was resolved, which
is amazing as well as with yourfamily, and that drove you to
just say you know what?
I'm going to go get a PhD inthis.
And when you went and did yourstudies, you made three
(01:27):
groundbreaking discoveries.
Maybe we can start there andshare with everybody what those
are.
Dr. Debi Silber (01:32):
Yeah, you know, I don't think anybody says, oh,
I think I want to studybetrayal, I like that topic.
No, because you have to.
And my whole way of doingthings is, if I want to learn
something, you know, I always goto books or courses or
something.
And so here I was, I wasbetrayed and there was no book,
there was no course, there wasno anything.
And this was so big that Ineeded to study it.
(01:53):
So big.
So, at 50, here I was four kids, six dogs, a thriving practice,
and I enrolled in a PhD programand it was really just to
understand how the mind works.
You know why people do whatthey do and how I could truly
heal from this.
And while I was there, I did astudy.
I studied betrayal truly tohelp me heal and help my clients
and whatever.
That study led to threegroundbreaking discoveries which
(02:16):
changed my health, my family,my work, my life.
Josh Matthews (02:20):
Well, you certainly seem happy and healthy
, so we're excited to hear whatthese were.
Dr. Debi Silber (02:25):
Yeah.
So the first one was you know,I had a feeling that betrayal
was a different type of trauma.
I had been through death of aloved one, I'd been through
disease and I was like you knowwhat Betrayal feels different?
I didn't want to assume it wasthe same for all my study
participants, so I asked them ifyou've been through other
traumas besides betrayal?
Does it feel different for you?
And unanimously they said it'sso different.
(02:47):
And here's why Because it feelsso intentional.
We take it so personally, sothe entire self gets shattered
Rejection, abandonment,belonging, confidence,
worthiness, trust Like when youlose someone you love and
everybody can relate to this.
You grieve, you mourn, right.
Life will never be the same,but you don't necessarily
(03:07):
question the relationship, youdon't question your ability to
trust, you don't question yoursanity with betrayal.
You do so that it's a differenttype of trauma that requires a
different way to heal.
That was the first discovery.
Josh Matthews (03:20):
Yeah, it's, it's.
It's incredible, you know, whenwe try and put, you know, you
can't put a Band-Aid on a badartery right.
(03:40):
Different pain, differentinjuries require different
procedures, methodologies,shattering.
It's like, oh, you know, maybethese five steps that have
worked like magic for healingall of these things, so those
normal processes, you know,denial and so on, and moving
through those stages, how arethose stages?
Dr. Debi Silber (03:53):
different, the second.
So to answer your question.
The second discovery wasthere's actually a collection of
symptoms physical, mental andemotional so common to betrayal.
It's now known as post-betrayalsyndrome, and we've had easily
over 100,000 people take ourpost-betrayal syndrome
(04:16):
assessment to see to what extentthey're struggling.
The first thing is we've allbeen taught time heals all
wounds, right.
I have the proof that when itcomes to betrayal, that's not
true.
A new relationship won't healit.
Time won't heal it If youintentionally and deliberately
heal it.
That's what's going to heal it,and every few months I pull the
stats from the quiz.
I'm happy to share some of themif that would serve.
Josh Matthews (04:38):
Please do no, that's great.
Okay, Because Josh that wouldhave been an awkward moment if
you said no it would have beenan awkward moment if you said no
, it would have been reallyweird.
No, we don't want your stats.
Please, no facts.
Dr. Debi Silber (04:55):
Okay, all right .
So now imagine 100,000 people,men and women just about every
country is represented.
Okay, as much as I'm going toshare the symptoms.
Hear these numbers 78%constantly revisit their
experience.
81% feel a loss of personalpower Through every symptom I'm
sharing.
Imagine how this shows up inthe workplace and I know we're
going to dive into that moredeeply.
(05:16):
94% deal with painful triggers.
These are the most commonphysical symptoms.
71% have low energy.
68% have sleep issues.
63% have extreme fatigue.
So you go to sleep all night.
You wake up, you're exhausted.
Now think about you're showingup for your workday.
47% have weight changes.
(05:37):
So in the beginning you can'thold food down.
Later on, you're emotionallyeating yeah, the yo-yo
(05:59):
concentrate.
You have a gut issue.
You're exhausted.
And now you're supposed toperform at work.
Now you're supposed to sell,Now you're supposed to, you know
, promote that new program orproduct.
Right, that's not evenemotionally.
Emotionally, 88% experienceextreme sadness.
83% are very angry.
Now, if you're walking aroundvery angry, what's that going to
(06:22):
do to team culture andcollaboration and how are you
going to handle someone's?
Like a misunderstanding orsomething like that?
You're going to compoundeverything If that's what you're
attracting, if that's whatyou're putting out Sure, because
it's the dark side.
Josh Matthews (06:37):
Let's face it.
It's just the dark side, it'sfeeding the wrong force.
Dr. Debi Silber (06:41):
Exactly Because you're so upset, You're so
angry, you don't know what to dowith this.
You're told kind of keep it outof the office, but it can't
help but seep in.
I'll just read a few more.
This one killed me.
Eighty four percent have aninability to trust.
If you can't trust, think aboutit.
This was the person you trustedthe most.
Now how in the world?
(07:02):
Now you don't even trustyourself because you're like
where was I?
How did I not see?
How did I not know?
So if I can't trust the personI trusted the most and I can't
trust myself, how do I trust myboss, my coworker, my colleague.
Josh Matthews (07:13):
Yeah, and you're really putting yourself in a
position of isolation, becauseyou don't trust.
Dr. Debi Silber (07:22):
You don't trust anybody or what anybody's doing
or thinking, so it's a mess.
And just a few more here 67%prevent themselves from forming
deep relationships becausethey're afraid of being hurt
again.
So that's where you put the bigwall up.
You're like no one's gettingclose to me again.
So think about this If you're aboss or a leader of some kind,
(07:45):
you're not allowing people toget close to you in any way.
So how does that reflect onyour leadership?
They can't come near you, theydon't understand, you know.
Or even just in a, you're like,let's say, two employees
working together.
If you have that big wall up,what kind of connections are you
(08:05):
making?
Josh Matthews (08:07):
You see, yeah, look, it's a nightmare.
You've just described theingredients for a toxic work
environment right, exactly.
We did a poll recently I thinkit was this past winter around
the top reasons why people wantto exit or leave a business.
The number one reason forleaving was toxic work
(08:29):
environment.
But something that was reallyinteresting because, look, I've
talked to a lot of people, justlike you I don't know how many
thousands and thousands andthousands and thousands of
interviews, and there is asubset of people that claim
every job that they've had intheir last three or four jobs
has been toxic.
(08:49):
Right, and so it's a trickything to recognize what, if this
is me, what if this is, is myfilters, are my uh impressions,
or what I'm bringing to thetable, or how I'm showing up and
how much of it is actually that.
You know Susie's just not verygood at managing, or Jim is
(09:15):
dealing with betrayal, you know,in his own life and bringing it
into work, and you know it getsvery complex here.
Dr. Debi Silber (09:22):
Well, you know what it actually doesn't,
because that was what the thirddiscovery was about.
I like that yeah.
Josh Matthews (09:29):
Simple is always nice, right.
Dr. Debi Silber (09:31):
So there's definitely that element of is it
?
You know everybody else aroundus and that could be the case,
but it's also where we land andstay after a betrayal.
That was the third discovery.
So what was discovered was,while we can stay stuck for
years, decades, a lifetime, andmost people do if we're going to
fully heal and by fully heal Imean those symptoms of
(09:54):
post-betrayal syndrome that Ijust shared to this completely
rebuilt place where you rebuildyour life and yourself.
To move through that, you willgo through five proven,
predictable stages, and what'seven more exciting about that is
we learned what happensphysically, mentally and
emotionally at every one ofthose stages and what it takes
(10:15):
to move from one space to thenext.
Healing is entirely predictable.
Josh Matthews (10:19):
So talk about that very first step, if someone
wants to.
They recognize they've beenbetrayed, they recognize that
they're exhibiting.
Maybe they can't even identifyit, because sometimes betrayal
happens in childhood and wecan't name it, we're not sure
what it is, we're not sure ifit's it's like yeah, but I was
(10:39):
loved.
But why am I so upset?
I love my parents.
Why am I?
Why am I so frustrated?
I really like everybody on myteam.
Why am I kind of seething ormildly disappointed in them,
constantly Like these sorts ofthings?
So I suppose we can look firstlike do we have these symptoms
that you, that you just shared?
(11:00):
And then what do we do aboutthat?
Dr. Debi Silber (11:02):
Yeah, well, one of the and I'm happy to move
you through the five stages soyou see, cause everyone will
know exactly where they are.
When I shared the five, stagesbut I'll tell you what an
unhealed betrayal looks like.
It looks like in your health,in your work, in your
relationships, like this.
This is how you know it'sunhealed in relationships.
We'll see it in one of two ways.
Number one way repeat betrayals.
The face has changed, but it'sthe same thing.
(11:23):
And you go from boss to boss toboss, partner to partner,
partner, friend to friend tofriend.
You say, is it me?
Yes, it is Not in that it'syour fault, in that there is a
profound lesson waiting to belearned.
Maybe the lesson is justunderstand already that you are
lovable, worthy and deserving.
You need better boundaries inplace.
(11:46):
Whatever that particular lessonis for you, until and unless
you get that, you'll haveopportunities in the form of
people to teach you.
So repeat betrayals.
Classic sign take a look, takea look, it's unhealed.
The second way is where thatbig wall goes up right, where we
just cannot risk that level ofvulnerability again, because it
was so painful that we ratherwould keep everyone at a
(12:09):
distance than take that chanceand heal.
So that's unhealed, that's hard, that's not healed.
We see it in health.
People go to the mostwell-meaning, amazing doctors,
coaches, healers, therapists tomanage a stress-related symptom,
illness, condition, disease.
At the root of it is anunhealed betrayal.
Like you heard me share, 45% ofeverybody who's betrayed has a
(12:32):
digestive issue.
You can go to the best gutdoctor on the planet I'm friends
with many of them but unlessyou get to the root of that,
it's unhealed Like, for example,we had a woman in our community
in her mid eighties.
She had a family betrayal 70years ago she was adopted.
They didn't tell her it waslike one of those things.
(12:52):
70 plus years she had adigestive issue.
Two weeks into healing the rootissue she healed from 70 plus
years of a digestive issue.
Josh Matthews (13:00):
It's incredible, can I ask you like?
I've been to therapists.
I've done couples therapy, I'vedone individual therapy.
Some of them have been awesome.
Some of them have, I think,made it harder for me to trust
therapists.
Right, because that happens alot and I don't mind saying this
(13:22):
.
I think vulnerability winsalways.
You know, sharing someone'spersonal experiences, when
someone how do I put this?
When we have a problem, when wehave an issue, when we have
something that we need to fix,we can often compound it by
trying to heal, with all thebest intentions, but using the
(13:43):
wrong, wrong way to heal that orto fix that solution.
In other words, the solutionbecomes the thing that worsens
the problem, that sets it indeeper and deeper and deeper,
that increases the infection, soto speak.
Right, how does someoneunderstand how to go, how to
(14:06):
maybe even identify whether ornot whatever they're doing,
whatever their solution is rightnow, is making things better or
making things worse?
And I'll give, I'll give aquick example.
There are some therapists thatwill validate and you talked
about this on your podcast willwill validate you, and that's
(14:28):
good.
We need to be heard and we needto be validated.
But then there's this thingthat gosh, you know, if you're
talking about the past everysingle week, it's very difficult
to be living in the presentwith hope and living in the
future right.
I mean, when is enough?
Enough of diving into the pastversus like, what kind of
behaviors am I going to take now?
(14:49):
How do I take action to moveforward?
Dr. Debi Silber (14:51):
Yeah, it's a great question and this is
something we see.
If I tell you how many peoplecome into the PBT Institute with
therapy and counselors, trauma,these are well-meaning
counselors and therapists, butwhen you understand the five
stages and, like I said, happyto share them, what's happening
is very often and in thebeginnings, particularly in
stage two out of the five stagesyou need to feel heard,
(15:12):
validated, understood.
But if that's all, you'regetting over and over and over
again, what it's doing isrooting you in the most common
place.
We get stuck and it becomes sofamiliar that we just can't even
imagine leaving that space.
So it's a common thing and it'sinteresting because I certify a
lot of coaches, a lot oftherapists, a lot of healers, a
(15:34):
lot of healers and thetherapists are the hardest ones
for me to certify, because theyjust want to make sure that
person feels heard and that'sthat's wonderful, but they also
need to move through the stages.
So that's that's our intentionto move them.
Josh Matthews (15:50):
You know it's, it's.
It's interesting to hear this.
People are drawn to cause.
Look, this is a professionalshow.
It's about professions, it'sabout your career and in my
career as a, as as a headhunterand as a leader um in in
recruiting over the yearssometimes a big fortune 500
company, sometimes just my ownlittle gig and I've I have
(16:12):
noticed that a lot of people whoare attracted to becoming
recruiters.
They're attracted because theylike people and they want to
help people and like that'sgreat.
But the thing that you need tobe a good recruiter is
discernment.
You need to know that eventhough this person has good
intentions, this candidate hasgood intentions, they're nice,
(16:35):
you like them.
The fact that you feel bad fortheir situation cannot at all
come into play.
When you're trying to serve theclient, they're paying you
$30,000 to deliver them someonewho's going to fix and heal and
enhance their team, enhancetheir business, grow their
revenue, whatever it has, solvea major problem, like whatever
it is.
Do you think that by the natureof it and I know this is a
(16:58):
little bit off track, but do youthink that just the nature of
the profession of psychology,which often attracts people who
suffered trauma, found ithelpful, want to help others,
which is a wonderful progression, but do you think that
sometimes it can lack thatability to be a little bit more
(17:23):
like the leadership that'snecessary inside of those
psychological relationships, tobe like okay, we've talked about
that, I'm glad that you'resharing this again, but I've
been, I've heard it.
We need to do something aboutit now.
Let's move forward.
Dr. Debi Silber (17:39):
Yeah, it's.
You know, when you're talkingabout the same thing for months,
years, decades, that's.
That's something else.
It's one thing if you don'thave anybody, a support system,
and you feel like you know what.
I have a lot that I'm movingthrough and I need a sounding
board.
I need, I need some supporthere.
Sure, yes, that's wonderful andin the earlier stages, like I
(18:01):
said and again, happy to sharethe stages, it's important.
But when that's all you'regaining from the experience,
you're not moving through thestages and you're keeping
yourself tragically stuck wherethe only thing available to you
are more symptoms ofpost-betrayal syndrome, more
betrayals, because you're livingin a state of if nothing
(18:25):
changes, nothing changes.
You don't have access to thosenew insights, that new awareness
that happens when you're pastyour trauma.
Josh Matthews (18:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Why don't you go ahead?
If you can share those fivestages with us, I'd love that.
Dr. Debi Silber (18:38):
Yeah, yeah, so everyone will notice exactly
where they are.
Stage one actually, before ithappens, and if you can imagine
four legs of a table, the fourlegs being physical, mental,
emotional and spiritual, what Isaw with everybody me too was a
heavy lean on the physical andmental thinking and doing, which
is how most of us walk around,right, and kind of neglecting or
ignoring the emotional and thespiritual.
(18:59):
Well, if a table has two legs,easy for that table to topple
over, and that's us.
Stage two shock trauma, d-day,discovery day.
This is the scariest of all ofthe stages, and this is the
breakdown of is shattered.
Right, that's your model.
Trust this person, don't gothere.
These are the rules, and in oneearth shattering moment, every
(19:35):
rule you've been holding to bereal and true is no longer.
Your bottom has bottomed out onyou and a new bottom hasn't
been formed yet.
This is terrifying, right?
Josh Matthews (19:47):
Terrifying.
Dr. Debi Silber (19:48):
Terrifying.
And here you are supposed to belike hi, new partner, let me
sell this thing.
Yeah, you can barely function.
Yeah, think about it.
If the bottom were to bottomout on you, what would you do?
You'd grab hold of anything oranyone.
Josh Matthews (20:03):
Absolutely.
Dr. Debi Silber (20:03):
Stay alive and stay safe.
Josh Matthews (20:05):
Yeah, could be a bottle, could be a joint, could
be some pills, could be going toclubs, all sorts of things that
aren't going to serve you.
Dr. Debi Silber (20:17):
Exactly.
And what's happening here isnow you're surviving, and
because you feel that it's somuch better than the shock and
trauma that you just came from,we think it's good.
And because we don't knowthere's anywhere else to go we
don't know there's a stage fouror stage five so we plant roots
here.
We're not supposed to, but fourthings start to happen.
(20:38):
The first thing is you startgetting all those small
self-benefits.
You think about it, you go towork, you tell your story.
You get all that confirmation,you get to be right, you get
sympathy from everyone.
You get your story we love ourstory right.
And so now this is sort of whatyou're talking about, what
you're thinking about.
So now the mind starts doingthings.
(20:59):
Like you know, maybe you're notthat great, maybe you deserved
it, maybe this, maybe that.
So you plant these deeper rootsNow, because these are the
thoughts you're thinking, thisis the energy you start putting
out.
Like energy attracts, likeenergy.
So now you start having thatsituation with your boss,
another thing with your coworker, another experience with a bad
(21:19):
relationship, right, same thing.
And you're like what the heckis it me?
And now you join that supportgroup.
You actually sabotage yourselfbecause you found your people.
Here's where you see atherapist and you're just what's
happening.
And, over and over, here'swhere you're actually starting
to heal, but you sabotage yourhealing because you're afraid to
(21:40):
outgrow your betrayer, who hasno intention of changing.
Gets worse, but I'll get youout of here?
Josh Matthews (21:46):
What do you mean by that?
Afraid to outgrow your betrayer?
Dr. Debi Silber (21:49):
Yeah.
So let's say you have, let'ssay it's a, it's a relational
betrayal, so this is yourpartner and they betrayed you.
And let's say they have nointention of changing, like this
wasn't the biggest wake up callof their life, where there's
tremendous regret, remorse, youknow all of that and they're
just sort of blaming you ormaking excuses or whatever it is
(22:10):
.
Because if you're stuck in thatstage three where you're
managing and suppressing yoursymptoms, right, because now
you're so miserable, you have toget through your day.
So now you're numbing, avoiding, distracting, like what you
shared before work drugs,alcohol, anything.
So now you're saying toyourself I'm so sick, I'm so
(22:32):
miserable, I'm so terrible.
Maybe they're right, maybe Ishould just find a way to be
okay with this.
Josh Matthews (22:37):
I'm not worthy.
Dr. Debi Silber (22:38):
Yeah, and so what they're doing is they're
solidifying their spot in stagethree.
And now the best they can hopefor, right, is a suppression of
these symptoms.
They're not going to healbecause they're not changing.
Another repeat experience,because there are no
consequences, right?
So you can only access stagethree thoughts and a stage three
(23:03):
life when you're in stage three, you see, but people are so
afraid of that death anddestruction of the old.
That's the only way you birththe new.
And which can I take it?
A four and five or go ahead?
Josh Matthews (23:14):
You can take all of us to four and five.
Dr. Debi Silber (23:17):
Okay.
So if you're willingwillingness is the biggest word
right here Willing to let go ofyour story, grieve more than the
loss all of a bunch of thingsyou can move to stage four.
Stage four is finding andadjusting to a new normal.
So here's where you acknowledgeI can't undo what happened, but
I control what I do with it.
In that decision alone you'returning down the stress response
(23:41):
.
So you're not healing just yet,but at least you stopped the
massive damage that washappening in stages two and
stage three.
Stage four feels like if you'veever moved, if you've ever moved
to a new house, office, condo,apartment, whatever your stuff's
not there.
It's not cozy yet, but it'sthis sort of hopeful excitement.
It feels like that.
But if you were to move, youdon't take everything with you.
(24:01):
You don't take the things thatdon't represent who you're now
ready to become.
And what I found was there'sthis one spot as people leave
stage three and enter into stagefour.
If your friends weren't therefor you, they're not coming
along.
That therapist who's keepingyou stuck you're done.
That lame group that's keepingyou stuck you're done.
That betrayer who's notchanging you're done.
(24:22):
That boss who won't changeyou're done.
And people say is it me?
Yes, it is.
You're undergoing atransformation.
If they don't rise, they don'tcome.
So it's a very personal, notnecessarily lonely time, very
personal time, stage four, butvery action-oriented.
Josh Matthews (24:39):
I think a lot of people leave jobs when they're
ready for stage four, just likethey leave relationships, just
like they leave towns.
We moved from Portland, oregon.
Portland's an amazing city andtreated us mostly well for most
of the time there, but then it'slike it's not serving me, right
?
I honestly this is going tosound silly I honestly felt
(25:03):
betrayed by the city I lived inbecause of how it was run and
crime and how it was managed andthe destruction of downtown and
all that stuff, like a city canbetray you.
So, of course, friends andrelationships and partners and
family members, bosses,coworkers you know, the only, it
seems like the only people whocan betray, who can't betray you
(25:25):
, are the people that you neverput any trust in to begin with.
Dr. Debi Silber (25:29):
Well, that's, that's why betrayal is so
different and that's why it's ashock to the body, the mind, the
heart, because this was theperson or these were the people
you gave your trust to.
So when this is the person orthese are the people to take
that sense of safety andsecurity away, it's traumatizing
.
And you mentioned all thedifferent ways we can feel
betrayed.
You know, we can even feelbetrayed by, let's say, a
(25:55):
company where that company saidtheir product was great for us.
It's called something, calledlike I think it's the love turns
to hate principle where yousupport this brand and this
company and you just think it'sthe greatest thing.
If you find out you've beenduped by that company, you turn
on them so fast.
We would rather knowinglychoose something bad for us,
like we know, let's say, alcoholis bad, but we're doing it, we
(26:18):
know what we're getting into.
But when a company says, oh,we're so healthy and good for
you and you find out it's not,we turn on them quickly.
There's also self-betrayal, youknow, like if you know
something or someone or yourwork or whatever is not in your
best interest and you keep goingback for more, that's
self-betrayal too.
Josh Matthews (26:37):
Yeah, and that self-betrayal and I've seen this
in family and probably myselfat certain times in my life that
self-betrayal it's the fastestway to erode self-worth.
Dr. Debi Silber (26:50):
That's a tall ladder to climb up that are
clearly not in your bestinterest.
And this is where and peoplethink I'm crazy when I say
(27:11):
trauma is the greatest catalystfor transformation because it is
you are cracked wide open andit's from that space that you
deliberately and intentionallyrebuild yourself.
And when I say people move intostages four and five new levels
of health, new businesses, newpassion projects, new
relationships of health, newbusinesses, new passion projects
, new relationships on a verydifferent level it's because one
(27:35):
of the things you are doing isyou're looking at every thought
that comes in and you're sayingdoes this still serve?
Because if not, it doesn't comealong.
And because why in the worldwould you bring along anything
with you that doesn't now allowfor this beautiful new version
(27:56):
of you to be created?
Josh Matthews (27:58):
You know this.
This is so critical.
I wrote an article I think itwas this winter about everything
that you should do before youquit right.
Everything you should do, andthe main justification for that
article is because I have seenso many people say this
environment is not good for me,I need to move on.
It's like, okay, but they leave, they go get a new job, and
(28:22):
everything that happened in thelast job it's happening in this
new job too.
And, by the way, it's going tohappen at the one after that If
you're not actually confrontingpeople, addressing the
challenges, addressing thecommunication issues, the broken
promises.
You know, hey, mrs Manager, Ijoined you said it was going to
be a hybrid role and then I goremote in three months and I
(28:46):
didn't get to do that.
I feel betrayed, I feel likeI've been snookered.
You said I was going to get abonus of 12.5% every year.
I've been here three years.
I've seen none of it.
All I've heard is excuses.
You said in six months I wasgoing to get promoted to a
solution architect instead ofsenior consultant.
It's been 18 months and everytime I broach it I'm pushed away
(29:07):
, right.
But if the people just sort ofquietly slip out, they're like,
yeah, it's not working out, oh,they didn't do blah, blah, this
and that.
Not only do they walk away withfeelings of betrayal from the
other company which can manifestand sits in you like ugly, dark
glue in your heart.
Right, it's not good stuff.
(29:28):
So not only does that happen,oh my God, you're bound to
repeat it because you neverrealized.
Well, what aspect was you right?
Hey, you forgot.
We did try to have you go remoteand you were always unavailable
on the days off.
We could no longer trust youthat you were actually at your
desk doing work, or hey, we toldyou that these were the
(29:50):
specific ways to get a bonus andthis is your record.
And maybe you forgot that thiswas a really important part of
that bonus game.
And hey, we wanted to promoteyou.
You shared that you knew thisskill set and that skill set
when you walked in the door andwithin a month, we knew that you
didn't quite have them yet.
That set things further back.
(30:12):
And, gosh, you know what?
We're sorry, because weprobably should have articulated
that to you sooner so that youdidn't feel this way and we
could have solved it andcorrected it a little bit
earlier.
And that's on us, but we feltthat you misrepresented us or
represented you also.
So you get to learn aboutyourself and like, oh gosh,
maybe they have a fucking point.
Dr. Debi Silber (30:33):
Maybe some of it is me Right?
And this is all stage threestuff.
Like think about it.
When I mentioned stage three,we're talking about our story,
we love our story, so thinkabout it.
Now we have confirming evidenceto support our belief.
You see, it's happening again.
They passed me over for thatpromotion because now it's like
we confirm all of our supporting, we have all the supporting
(30:56):
evidence and it's easy to blameeverybody else and instead of
taking responsibility.
You know, I've been in business34 years and there's a saying
that holds true no matter whatthe topic, and it holds true
here too.
And it's hard now, easy later.
Easy now, hard later.
Take your pick, it's going tobe one of those two.
And when it comes to healingfrom betrayal, I'm talking about
(31:17):
hard now because you'reassessing every single thought,
behavior, action that comes inwhere the person you just
described.
That's easy.
Now they're not making thechanges, they're not looking,
they're not assessing, they'reblaming, they're giving their
power away.
Now somebody would say to mewhat are you talking about?
I'm miserable, this is veryhard.
Yes, your scenario is miserable, but you're not doing the hard
(31:41):
work I'm talking about ofchanging those boundaries.
Josh Matthews (31:46):
It's the hardest thing.
It's so freaking hard, oh myGod.
But when we do that, we have to, we put ourselves out there,
because what we're doing whenwe're setting boundaries at
least in my experience, when weset boundaries we're putting the
relationship at risk.
It's a tricky thing, thatmoment when you finally have
let's just call it the grit andthe resolve to put yourself out
(32:11):
there.
I don't think there's a morevulnerable moment because you're
risking everything, right.
So you better make sure youknow what that boundary is and
that that is actually yourbreaking point.
It is terrifying.
Dr. Debi Silber (32:23):
And I think it's fair to say, don't ever
expect that to get easy.
It's never going to be easy,but easy isn't what's going to
create that change.
So actually in the study therewere three groups who did not
heal.
The first was the group thatthey were numbing, avoiding
distracting.
They ran to the doctor who putthem on a mood stabilizer or
anti-anxiety medication.
(32:43):
They were drinking.
Whatever they were doing, itmay have made the day a bit
easier to get through, Notwithout a price.
They, whatever they were doing,it may have made the day a bit
easier to get through, notwithout a price they didn't heal
.
The second group this was thegroup that had their story.
They were sticking with it likethat person you were talking
about, where it's everybodyelse's problem.
They didn't heal because theydidn't take responsibility.
The third group this was thegroup where the betrayer had
(33:04):
very little consequence.
So whether it was out offinancial fear, you know, let's
say it's a home scenario,Someone's, just they don't want
to, you know they don't have thefinances to live alone.
A work scenario they're afraidto lose their job, right,
Religious reasons, whatever itwas.
They did all they could to lookthe other way.
With the betrayal, I saw twothings with this group.
Number one, a furtherdeterioration of the
(33:26):
relationship.
And number two this group byfar was the most physically sick
, but we're so afraid of thoseconsequences this is what we
talked about with the boundarieswe're so afraid of those
consequences, but that's theonly way we create change.
Yeah, yeah, whether it's a newus, where it's like you know
(33:47):
what that's it, I'm movingthrough stage five regardless or
a new collective, Eventuallyyou rebuild a very different
relationship with that boss,that coworker, that partner,
based on new levels of respect,new boundaries, new everything
that's strong.
Josh Matthews (34:04):
I really liked what you said in your in one of
your episodes you're, you'resaying, look if you're, you know
your, your radiator breaks.
Or your said in your in one ofyour episodes you were saying,
look if you're, you know your,your radiator breaks, or your,
whatever, your, your hot waterheater breaks in your house, you
fix it.
A window breaks you, you, youfix it.
But when a tornado comesthrough and completely levels
(34:24):
your home, you have to rebuild.
Are you going to build the samehouse that got knocked down, or
don't you want it to be maybe alittle bit bigger, maybe a
little nicer, maybe configured alittle bit differently?
Like that's that opportunity oftransformation that comes from
that trauma of betrayal.
So I really like that.
I wonder if I can ask aboutwhat happens towards the end of
(34:46):
stage four.
So you're in stage four and nowwhat?
Dr. Debi Silber (34:50):
Yeah, so now, when you're settling into this
new, very hopeful, very new andexciting, what do I need?
What would be a great next stepfor me?
Now you move into the fifth,most beautiful stage, and this
is healing, rebirth and a newworldview.
The body starts to healSelf-love, self-care, eating
well, exercise.
(35:11):
We didn't have the bandwidthfor that earlier, now we do.
The mind is healing.
We're making those new rules,we're making those new
boundaries based on the road wejust traveled, and we have a new
worldview based on everythingwe see so clearly now.
And in the beginning, remember,it was all about the physical
and the mental.
By this point, we're solidlygrounded because we're focused
(35:33):
on the emotional and thespiritual too.
Those are the five Cs.
Josh Matthews (35:35):
Yeah, that's wonderful.
Thank you so much for sharingthat.
I would love to talk a littlebit about how the folks
listening to this program canactually understand like, hey,
am I creating betrayal in theworkplace as a leader?
I think most of the people wholisten to this are.
(35:56):
You know, have people reportingto them, or are they bringing
in symptoms of outside betrayalinto the workplace?
How do they, how can they takestock of what's actually
happening?
What are the signs.
Dr. Debi Silber (36:12):
It's a great question and the first thing is,
hopefully, hearing the fivestages you hear.
Are you stuck in that stagethree?
Because it's not your fault,that's what most people do.
But how are you showing up?
It's typically a response to anunhealed betrayal.
So think about it.
If you're struggling to trust,which is a natural, you know
(36:36):
response to betrayal, how isthat lack of trust showing up in
all of your you know, in all ofyour decisions and all of your
relationships?
If you've been, your confidencewas shattered.
Well, how is that affecting howyou show up in your you know,
in your workday and all thoseother things that you have to do
and your ability to speak up?
It's taking a look at even yourability to discern.
(37:01):
Because, think about it, if wedidn't even see this betrayal
coming, we're like I can't eventrust my own decision making,
right.
Even see this betrayal coming,we're like I can't even trust my
own decision-making, right?
So you want to take a look andsay whether it was a betrayal.
It really is.
It doesn't matter if it was abetrayal within the workplace or
outside of the workplace.
It is greatly impacting theworkplace in your ability to
(37:24):
feel safe.
You know, if you think you'rejust going to get fired because
you can't trust anything.
So, between a lack of trust,between your ability to discern,
between your think about it,the physical signs you're
exhausted, yeah.
So how could you be creative?
(37:44):
How could you?
Josh Matthews (37:45):
perform at your best.
You're exactly right.
I mean, look, I've noticed whensomeone is in a situation and
there are these reallyinteresting psychometric tests
that I like to do and some of myclients will utilize them just
to make sure that the teamdynamic is going to flow it's
going to be really solid.
(38:06):
One of the things that'samazing about this particular
psychometric evaluation is youcan see sort of what someone's
natural state is right, a littlebit beyond just the
Myers-Briggs MBTI type stuff.
You can also see how they'rehaving to behave, what is the
(38:26):
persona that they're having totake on right?
So, for instance, if I'm an ENTJand I went and got a job
working at an engineeringcompany, oh my God, that would
not be good, right.
But I'm having to go throughdetailed reports and make sure
that every T is crossed andevery I is dotted and I'm having
to operate as a sensor and notan intuitive right.
(38:47):
I'm having to force myself tobe something that's not
naturally.
It's not a natural setup.
The way my brain is wired right, that's going to.
You'll see the stress.
You'll see how much someone isliving outside of their high
functioning self right.
And it's such an incrediblething when you're on a team or
(39:12):
with a partner that you actuallyjust get to be you, and then
you're always enough.
Dr. Debi Silber (39:21):
But think about it.
That requires a level of safetythat you don't feel coming off
of a betrayal, so you don't feelsafe.
How can you relax and be you?
That level of vulnerability isterrifying.
Look what happened the lasttime we were vulnerable, See.
So, until and unless it's allhealed, we're bringing whether
it's outside or inside, we arebringing this to work with us
(39:41):
every single day Criticalthinking.
We're in survival, we can'tthink right, we can't.
We're physically not Think.
We can't think right, we can't.
Josh Matthews (39:51):
We're physically not think about it when you just
have a toothache and you'retrying to work right, oh God,
yeah.
So imagine your toe hurts, orsomething like it.
Exactly, yeah.
Dr. Debi Silber (39:57):
So when we have our heart hurting or when we're
just exhausted, we have allthese physical symptoms, the gut
issues, like I mentioned.
We can't bring our best toanything or anyone.
Josh Matthews (40:10):
Yeah, it issues.
Like I mentioned, we can'tbring our best to anything or
anyone.
Yeah, it's so difficult.
What is a specific action thatan individual can make?
Let's start.
I have two questions aroundthis.
The first one is what can theydo for themselves?
Let's say they say they'velistened to this show or they've
listened to some of your read,read your books.
They're like wow, I really amstuck here in stage three, like
(40:33):
I'm just I'm stuck.
Okay, what, what now?
What can I do?
Dr. Debi Silber (40:38):
You know the the first of all and this is
going to sound crazy but checkthe benefit of staying stuck.
You know people say benefit.
What are you talking about?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you'regetting lots of benefits from
staying there.
You don't have to make a move,you don't have to create change,
you don't have to shake upanything or anyone around you.
So I would say check thosebenefits.
(40:59):
There are actually fourquestions I would invite
everybody to write down.
That's my way of saying writethose down.
So the first question would beand this is how you see if
you're stuck.
So the first question would beand this is how you see if
you're stuck Am I numbing,avoiding distracting?
If so, how Right, like, callyourself on it.
Are you walking into thekitchen?
You're not the least bit hungry.
And there you are, you know,shooting cabinets.
The second question what am Ipretending not to see?
(41:24):
Am I pretending not to see?
I hate this job.
Am I pretending not to see?
I hate this job.
Am I pretending not to see thatI'm ignoring these glaring
signs of abuse at the workplaceor a betrayal, the ward,
whatever?
The third question what's lifegoing to look like in five to
ten years if I keep this going,play out exactly the way you're
(41:46):
handling or not handling thisscenario and look at it five to
ten years, ignore it.
Josh Matthews (41:52):
I love that Tony Robbins has a process called
it's called the Dickens process.
When you're looking at the past, the present, the future, like
the ghost is leading you through, like, okay, if this never
changed in five years, what'syour life like in 10 years?
What's your life like if it's20 years and you never made a
decision around this, you neverchanged anything.
(42:13):
What's that like?
I've gone through it.
I've helped some of my clientswalk through that process.
My partner's gone through it.
It is transformational, atleast for me.
That's my favorite part.
It's transformational to belike, okay, time to take action,
because the stakes we've beenminimizing in our head yeah,
(42:37):
what's actually at stake?
And what is at stake is therest of our life yeah, and our
happiness and fulfillment.
It's a massive thing and that'swhy.
Dr. Debi Silber (42:47):
And that's why the fourth question is what can
life look like in five to 10years if I change now?
I'm not saying it's easy.
Transformation begins when youtell yourself the truth.
Yeah.
Josh Matthews (42:59):
Beautiful, beautiful, this individual.
Let's say someone comes intothe workplace.
Let's say there's a leader.
They've gone through thisprocess either knowingly or
unknowingly, but they're ahealthy adult with excellent
leadership skills.
They've got one or moreemployees and they're seeing
(43:23):
through their behavior, eitherthrough lack of showing up,
through lack of showing up,hostility, passive aggression,
like one of your coaches sharedtoo many days absent.
Yes, they're gettingunhealthier.
The clients aren't happy withthem.
How can they gently orpowerfully disrupt that cycle
(43:48):
and be a help?
Yeah, and is it even theirplace?
Dr. Debi Silber (43:57):
You know, I'm so glad you're bringing this up,
because this is one of thethings that we're finding where
betrayal happens all the time.
It's just not spoken about.
So we're trying to make it justcommon language within the
workplace.
There's no blame, there's noshame, but let's treat the
challenge for what it is Insteadof just ignoring it or acting
like it's not there.
It's costing companies millionsand millions of dollars Because
(44:19):
think about it they're sendingsomeone to therapy or paying for
their healthcare or whatever.
And meanwhile, if you like, Ishared the woman with the 70
plus year digestive issue.
Right, when we deal with theroot, they're healed.
So if we're able to have thisconversation from this place of
listen I'm just mentioning theword betrayal here.
(44:39):
You know, could this be what'sgoing on?
We can actually handle the rootcause of what's happening so
that we can shave decades off ofthis person's pain, off their
suffering, off of their, youknow, just improve their health,
their wellbeing, theirproductivity, their everything
you want in someone at work canbe healed when they healed from
(45:02):
their betrayal.
Josh Matthews (45:03):
What might be, debbie, what might be a word
track that a leader or managercan use, that can broach this
subject, but still be HRcompliant, not be inappropriate,
not make someone feel like Isee inside your soul and I know
what's wrong with you, which canmake them, if they're not ready
(45:23):
for stage four, can oftenworsen things, or we get filters
right.
It's like the boss said thisthey're trying to help, but they
heard it's like you're notenough and you're fucking up
right.
What's a safe word track thathopefully can actually create
momentum in the right direction.
Dr. Debi Silber (45:45):
It's interesting because that was why
I wrote my most recent book, sothat it becomes this sort of
corporate wellness tool that'ssubtly letting everybody know it
has nothing, it's not yourfault, it's not whatever, but
it's affecting the workplace andlet's handle it.
That's why I wrote the BetrayalRecovery Roadmap.
(46:05):
But what a lot of people havebeen doing in the past was like
hey, did you see that TEDx talk?
It's really interesting.
Josh Matthews (46:14):
The third party subtle hit.
I love it, I love it.
Let's continue the conversationjust a little bit longer.
In what ways?
We've talked a little bit abouthow an individual can
experience betrayal and thenconsequently suffer from that
(46:35):
betrayal in the workplace mightbe able to do to confront them
so that they can either decide Ican live with this or I can't
live with this, depending onwhat stage they're in right.
(46:56):
Yeah, so in your work around thecountry, around the world, what
have you seen are the mostcommon types of betrayal in the
workplace?
Dr. Debi Silber (47:08):
Yeah, well, it's definitely.
You know, the way I describe abetrayal is the breaking of a
spoken or unspoken rule, andevery relationship has them
right.
So in the workplace was there aspoken or unspoken rule that's
been violated, and typically thebetrayal is without your
awareness or consent, someonechose to break that spoken or
(47:28):
unspoken rule.
So when we're working with ourclients who have experienced
this workplace betrayal, we willvery often because our whole
intention is, every single timewe sit down with anybody how do
we move them towards the nextstage, incrementally or in some
degree, moving them out of thisone stage into the next.
(47:51):
So very often I will assess itsomething like this I'll ask
them about their job how do youlike your job?
And they may say, oh, I love it, I just can't stand my coworker
.
Well then we're going to go inone direction.
But what if they say somethinglike you know, I really can't
stand it?
Now we can look at it and saythis whole experience may have
been the motivation you need tostart something else, like I'm
(48:13):
not telling you to quit your dayjob here, but maybe you know.
And then I'll ask them and I'mwatching them, you know, what is
it that you like oh, I reallywant to do this or that or the
other thing.
Okay, would you have ever, youknow, considered that had this
not happened?
And then, it just like smile ontheir face.
They're like you know, and nowthey're not even angry with
their coworker who stole theircredit, you know, credit for
(48:35):
their idea or whatever.
They're grateful because you'relike wow, they really gave them
incentive.
Josh Matthews (48:39):
Well, and it stops like as soon as you move
on.
You've actually moved on, yeahRight, which is powerful.
You actually go from that lovethat turned to hate.
You actually get toindifference, which is a very
comfortable place to be aroundpeople that have betrayed you.
Dr. Debi Silber (48:59):
Even better than that, you get to a place of
compassion, because now you'regrateful that that person did
that.
Now you're going to pursuesomething you love.
Josh Matthews (49:08):
I love that, Debbie.
That's fantastic.
It's been wonderful to have youon the show.
I want to make sure peoplestick around so that they can
hear exactly how they can findyour books, learn more about you
, follow your podcast and evenengage your organization's
services too.
All of that's going to beposted in the notes below on
(49:30):
YouTube.
It's going to be in the noteson the podcast as well.
If there's one message thatsomeone should walk away from
today, yeah, I can't even leaveit as one.
Dr. Debi Silber (49:42):
Can I give you two?
Why don't you give me three?
Go?
Josh Matthews (49:44):
ahead, give us three.
Dr. Debi Silber (49:46):
I want to give you two.
I want to say, even though ithappened to you, it's not about
you If you have to repeat that amillion times it's worth it.
The second thing I would say isthere's a predictable, proven,
research-based roadmap to movethrough all of it.
Staying stuck is a choiceBeautiful.
Josh Matthews (50:05):
Thank you, Dr.
Debbie.
Dr. Debi Silber (50:07):
This is fantastic.
Josh Matthews (50:08):
I am stoked about having you on this program and
thank you so much.
Dr. Debi Silber (50:13):
Thank you so much.
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